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Deth Muncher
2008-02-22, 10:09 PM
Could I conceivably turn a "Burst of Flame" into a "Burst of Positive Energy," thus healing any non-evil things I hit with it?

Kelros
2008-02-22, 10:37 PM
This seems like an evil abuse of a feat, and I would not allow it in any campaign myself, and anyway, like a fireball hitting your buddy and toasting him, it would heal your (living) enemies too anyways.

Parvum
2008-02-22, 10:41 PM
What qualifies as energy? Because if acid is an 'energy', than it's not that much of a stretch of imagination that positive/negative energy does not qualify.

Kantolin
2008-02-22, 10:42 PM
Whether or not that's possible, positive energy does not always heal things. See the positive energy plane, and its tendency to make humanoids explode. So if you did find a feat which permitted this to work, it'd probably just strike all enemies within the area for positive energy damage instead of fire damage.

At any rate, the Energy Substitution feat in particular is very specific - it has a small list of what you can change things into, and positive energy isn't on the list. There may be a different feat to do what you're aiming for, however - and I believe there's a 7th level spell (Systodweamor? Something like that) which permits an arcanist to heal people (It's in the spell compendium).

Edit: Curses, I cannot seem to find my books. Either way, I believe the specific wording of the feat is 'Acid, Fire, Cold, or Electricity'.

Ominous
2008-02-22, 10:52 PM
Whether or not that's possible, positive energy does not always heal things. See the positive energy plane, and its tendency to make humanoids explode. So if you did find a feat which permitted this to work, it'd probably just strike all enemies within the area for positive energy damage instead of fire damage.

Positive energy always heals non-undead. The positive energy plane causes people to explode because it overheals them. Think of it as constantly drinking water at a fast rate (with occasional stopping to breath). At some point your gut will burst from what is the most necessary component for human life.

Ganurath
2008-02-22, 11:03 PM
Energy Substitution does not work that way! Goodnight!

Or, to be specific, the feat specifies very clearly that it can only substitute in fire, cold, acid, and electric energy.

NEO|Phyte
2008-02-22, 11:57 PM
Positive energy always heals non-undead.
No it doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)

tyckspoon
2008-02-23, 12:14 AM
Positive energy always heals non-undead.

Additional counterpoint: The Ravid. It adds positive energy to its attacks, which does extra harm to undead but has no special effect against live target. See Also: Bolt of Glory.

Chronos
2008-02-23, 01:16 AM
There is a feat to add positive energy to a spell: Energize Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Energize_Spell,all). But it still doesn't heal: It increases the damage to undead, and decreases the damage to everything else (but it still does damage).

AmberVael
2008-02-23, 01:20 AM
And to add an opposite viewpoint to all the 'no' answers:

You don't have to be undead to be harmed. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Tomb-tainted_Soul,LM)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-23, 03:41 AM
Energy Substitution does not work that way! Goodnight!

Or, to be specific, the feat specifies very clearly that it can only substitute in fire, cold, acid, and electric energy.
Quoting for correctness and unarguability.

No, you can't make a spell Positive Energy with Energy Substitution. It's in the text of the feat.

Benefit: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity,
or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy
descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy
substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal
level. The spell’s descriptor changes to the new energy
type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy
is an evocation [cold] spell.
See? Only those four energy types.

Now, the Archmage's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm) Mastery of Elements arcana could be argued, if you wanted to be a jackass, but it's pretty clear that "elements" the in the context of that means "Fire/Cold/Electricity/Acid/Sonic.

Nomadic
2008-02-23, 03:48 AM
No it doesn't. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptUndead.htm)

You misread what they said.


Positive energy always heals non-undead.

They were saying that positive energy heals things that aren't undead. Your link has to do with disrupt undead. A spell that deals with things that ARE undead.

Zincorium
2008-02-23, 04:03 AM
Elven Spell Lore, from the PHB2, carries no such distinction and may well allow you to choose positive energy. However, it only applies to a single spell.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 06:11 AM
They were saying that positive energy heals things that aren't undead. Your link has to do with disrupt undead. A spell that deals with things that ARE undead.

Disrupt undead channels positive energy. It damages undead, but has no effect on non-undead. Therefore, it is not true that positive energy always heals non-undead, just that it never damages them (death by awesome not withstanding).

Arioch
2008-02-23, 07:32 AM
From the Rules Compendium:


Negative energy and positive energy are damage types, but they are not considered energy types the way that acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic are.

I house-rule it differently, but in the D&D rules, positive is not an energy type, so spells and feats (and powers, and so on) which require you to choose an energy type only allow acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic. So the answer to the first post is no, you can't.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-23, 09:18 AM
Positive energy always heals non-undead.

I don't think that Boccob's Roiling Cloud or Disk of Concordant Opposition heal that way.

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-23, 05:10 PM
EDIT: The answer is NO. Read the feat description.

Your only options are acid, cold, electricity, and fire. You don't have other options. You thus can't do positive energy substitution.

TheOOB
2008-02-23, 08:21 PM
Lets see:

1) There is no positive energy descriptor, as in, there is no game rule effect for a spell using positive energy. The "energy" descriptors are fire, cold, electricity, acid, and sonic.

2) The energy substitution feat is very clear what is does

3) Archmage is slightly more ambiguous, but it's intent is clear.

4) Positive energy doesn't heal living creatures, the cure spells heal living creatures by using positive energy(and hurt undead). This is an effect of the spell, not the energy type, because positive energy is not an energy type.

sonofzeal
2008-02-23, 08:44 PM
Wait, so Energy Substitution: Sonic doesn't work then? I thought that was a classic!

Ganurath
2008-02-23, 08:52 PM
Wait, so Energy Substitution: Sonic doesn't work then? I thought that was a classic!Yes, it went back to the days of 3.0, before they updated the feat for 3.5.

Collin152
2008-02-23, 11:09 PM
Wait, so Energy Substitution: Sonic doesn't work then? I thought that was a classic!

It would make the feat overpowered.
Sonic is the element everybody forgets.
For good reason. It's a joke! Not one of the core Dragons breaths sonic.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-23, 11:25 PM
Elven Spell Lore, from the PHB2, carries no such distinction and may well allow you to choose positive energy. However, it only applies to a single spell.

But all the kewl kids have it deal Sanctified/Vile damage.

Collin152
2008-02-23, 11:29 PM
But all the kewl kids have it deal Sanctified/Vile damage.

One immediatley after the other, too.

Fishy
2008-02-24, 01:04 AM
The RAW, SRD way to deal positive energy damage is to be a Rogue with 1 level of Cleric or Druid. Cure Minor Wounds requires an attack roll, so counts as a weapon-like spell for Sneak Attack. Heal someone who isn't expecting it, and they take 1d6 damage of the same energy type as the spell- And what happens next isn't really established, as far as I know.

Chronos
2008-02-24, 01:26 AM
Cure Minor Wounds requires an attack roll, so counts as a weapon-like spell for Sneak Attack. Heal someone who isn't expecting it, and they take 1d6 damage of the same energy type as the spell- And what happens next isn't really established, as far as I know.An attack has to do damage in the first place to be eligible for Sneak Attack. Cure Minor Wounds doesn't do damage, to living things, so it's not eligible. It does do damage to undead, but of course, you can't sneak attack undead.

There are a few fringe cases: You could use a Cure spell to sneak attack a living creature who has the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, and if you have Gravestrike, you could sneak attack an undead in the same way. But in general, you can't Sneak Attack with a Cure spell, and even with those exceptions, there's still no way to increase the amount of healing using Sneak Attack.

Deth Muncher
2008-02-24, 09:46 PM
Well then. I appreciate everyone's input. I didn't think it would work, but I thought it would be awfully funny if it did.


End of discussion.

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 01:06 PM
No.

Though you could convince everyone in your party to be undead, and then use the various negative energy spells.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-25, 01:47 PM
Wait, so Energy Substitution: Sonic doesn't work then? I thought that was a classic!
No. As I pointed out in another thread, it works just fine.

The feat doesn't say, "Choose one of the energy types listed here." It just says "Choose an energy type" and then lists a few examples. That Sonic is not one of the included examples does not mean it is not an energy type. One of the rules in writing is that anything in parentheses, such as a list of examples, can be removed from the surrounding text without changing the text's meaning. Removing that list would not leave any sort of statement that indicates Sonic is not available as an energy type. So that is just a list of examples.

ColdBrew
2008-02-25, 01:47 PM
It does do damage to undead, but of course, you can't sneak attack undead.
Actually, there are a couple ways to sneak attack undead now.

Chronos
2008-02-25, 08:18 PM
Actually, there are a couple ways to sneak attack undead now.Which I mentioned right after that. But even in those cases, Sneak Attack is dealing damage, not healing.