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View Full Version : Mountain Rage+Enlarge Person+Spiked Chain=Cheese?



Ascension
2008-02-23, 12:14 AM
Okay, I'm planning a goliath barbarian for a future campaign at the moment, and I'm planning on taking the racial substitution levels to pick up Mountain Rage. Mountain Rage allows a goliath (who already functions as a large creature in many respects due to its powerful build) actually become Large during a rage. Yes, it kills catgirls. But it's also badass. Anyway, that raises reach to 10ft. If he gets enlarge person cast on him while raging, that should, as far as I can tell, take him up to Huge and give him 15ft reach. The racial Dex penalty will keep it from getting too cheesy, I suppose, but I'm highly tempted to pump his Dex and give him a spiked chain and combat reflexes. 20 ft reach. Combat reflexes. The insane strength bonuses from the goliath race, the raging, and the size increases should mean that I can build a relatively weak barbarian and sink at least enough into Dex to get me two extra AOOs, possibly three. As long as the rage and the magic last, practically anybody who moves within 20 feet of the very large and very angry barbarian gets whacked.

Too much cheese?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-23, 12:26 AM
Not really, especially if your party has a lot of spellcasters who will appreciate the protection. Also, throw in Rombilar's Gambit and add trips to each AoO. Yor allies will love this. Lockdown is good for the whole party, and won't make you auto-kill encounters.

tyckspoon
2008-02-23, 12:33 AM
It's worse than that- Reach weapons don't add 5 feet of reach, they double whatever you already have. You get 20 feet out of the chain when you go Large (I assume your equipment changes size with you when you rage, otherwise it'd be almost completely useless..) and that gets bumped up to 30 if you then manage to get Enlarged. Assuming that stacks; there's a line in Enlarge Person that says that 'magical size-changing effects do not stack.' What class of ability is Mountain Rage?

Whether or not it's too cheesy depends a lot on the rest of your group and the group's normal playing style. Excessively large chain-masters fit in pretty well with the upper-mid range of optimization and in big open spaces. Most dungeons, on the other hand, are sized for Medium creatures. Large creatures can fit with some squeezing, and Huge ones usually just can't get in. If you spend a lot of time in traditional-type dungeons, the cheese you can access by way of size increase is limited by how high the ceilings are.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-23, 12:48 AM
Enlarge Person can't target a Goliath. They're not persons. Sorry!

AmberVael
2008-02-23, 12:54 AM
Enlarge Person can't target a Goliath. They're not persons. Sorry!

Ouch. That had to hurt their equal rights movement.

"Goliaths are people too!"
"Nope, they can't be targeted by Enlarge Person."
"...err...."

bugsysservant
2008-02-23, 01:02 AM
Isn't there an aberrant feat which increases reach by 5 feet? I think it gives a penalty to attack, but if you're going for sheer AoOs, you may want to look into it.

The Glyphstone
2008-02-23, 01:23 AM
Enlarge Person won't work. Expansion will:smallwink: ...and it'll grow you by TWO size categories:smallbiggrin: ...you just need Hidden Talent, or a few levels in PsyWarrior and Practiced Manifester...psionics ftw!:smallsmile:

(Goliath manifesting augmented Expansion then going into Mountain Rage with Abberant Reach and wielding a Spiked Chain...50ft. circle of PAIN...

Jack Zander
2008-02-23, 01:27 AM
Just have the party sorcerer/wizard research a spell called Enlarge Giant which only targets giants instead. (Requires DM approval first).

Aquillion
2008-02-23, 05:25 AM
Expansion doesn't stack with this (and, according to it, nor will anything else.) Read it carefully; it says:
Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself. Note the lack of the word 'magical'.

Ascension
2008-02-23, 02:35 PM
*sigh* I knew I was neglecting to think of something. For what it's worth, Mountain Rage is (Ex), so magic could stack with it, but I totally forgot about the mechanical difference between monstrous humanoids and humanoids. I'm not really well versed in magic, but is there any spell that enlarges monstrous humanoids?

brian c
2008-02-23, 03:26 PM
Enlarge Person won't work. Expansion will:smallwink: ...and it'll grow you by TWO size categories:smallbiggrin: ...you just need Hidden Talent, or a few levels in PsyWarrior and Practiced Manifester...psionics ftw!:smallsmile:

(Goliath manifesting augmented Expansion then going into Mountain Rage with Abberant Reach and wielding a Spiked Chain...50ft. circle of PAIN...

Frequently misread property of psionics: You need more than just a few levels of PsyWarrior to use the two-sizes version of expansion because of the limit on number of powerpoints usable on one manifested power. Even if you have enough power points, you aren't allowed to manifest enough of them to grow two sizes.

Chronos
2008-02-23, 04:13 PM
Frequently misread property of psionics: You need more than just a few levels of PsyWarrior to use the two-sizes version of expansion because of the limit on number of powerpoints usable on one manifested power.That's what the Practiced Manifester is for: It increases your Manifester Level, which in turn increases the amount of points you're allowed to spend on a power.

ladditude
2008-02-23, 04:18 PM
Take any medium creature, give them monkey grip with a large weapon. Then, cast enlarge person. Thus, you have a 30ft reach. Give him combat reflexes for more AoOs and a high dexterity. Then take standstill. Finally, put several damage enchants on your chain. Thus, anything that get within 30ft of you should have to make a dexterity check somewhere near 30. Finally, make your character a knight so that all terrain in your threat range is difficult. Thus, nobody can make a 5ft step inside your threat range.

Then you can just let all of the wizards and clerics and rogues in your group kill the things. Plus, your rogue will get flanks A LOT easier.

Nebo_
2008-02-23, 05:32 PM
Take any medium creature, give them monkey grip with a large weapon. Then, cast enlarge person. Thus, you have a 30ft reach. Give him combat reflexes for more AoOs and a high dexterity. Then take standstill. Finally, put several damage enchants on your chain. Thus, anything that get within 30ft of you should have to make a dexterity check somewhere near 30. Finally, make your character a knight so that all terrain in your threat range is difficult. Thus, nobody can make a 5ft step inside your threat range.

Then you can just let all of the wizards and clerics and rogues in your group kill the things. Plus, your rogue will get flanks A LOT easier.

Weapon size has nothing to do with reach. The creature wielding the weapon determines that. Standstill doesn't force dexterity checks, it forces reflex saves, and the best way to pump those is with power attack, not with damage enchantments. The wording says they have to make a save against how much damage it would have done without having to actually hit. So, power attack to your heart's content and nothing can move. I abused this in a one shot with an Ogrun (Iron Kingdoms) enlarged to huge with standstill and Thicket of Blades, for 30' reach. The DM was making DC 60ish reflex saves every time he moved.

Aquillion
2008-02-23, 10:04 PM
That's what the Practiced Manifester is for: It increases your Manifester Level, which in turn increases the amount of points you're allowed to spend on a power.But you still need at least 7 power points and a manifester level of 7 to do it, even just once per day (and if you can only do it once per day, you're going to suck, so let's say at least 14.) That's going to eat up a lot of feats, even with the two bonus feats you get from psiwar; and you'll need at least 3 levels of psiwar + a source of at least 11 power points (to do it twice a day). You could get away with less if you just want to do the one-size increase, but since you probably want it to last more than one round it's still going to involve a high wis mod, a feat or two, and at least a few levels of psiwar (you might as well take two levels of psiwar if you're going to take one, though, since you'll get an extra bonus feat and an extra power and won't lose any more BAB over only taking one.)

But, I should add -- none of this matters, because expansion does not stack with anything that increases size unless the ability in question specifically says otherwise. Period. Expansion is very good, but (aside from starting as an already-large race) there is nothing you can do to increase your size any further.

Bandededed
2008-02-23, 10:45 PM
When you change size, doesn't your powerful build continue to function?

Thus, you could wield a Huge weapon while you are large. This should work, because your equipment grows when you do.

So as a large creature, you would have reach = 30 feet.

If you really want the reach of a Gargantuan creature (with a spiked chain), talk the party wizard into researching that spell, like Jack Zander suggested.

Talic
2008-02-23, 10:54 PM
Let's say your Mountain raging Goliath barbarian is evil. Let's also say somewhere down the line, an ancestor was a sicko. Let's also say that level 2 is fighter.

1st Aberrant heritage (+2 to let's say, grapple)
Flaw Inhuman Reach (-1 to attack rolls, +5 foot reach)
Flaw Willing Deformity (Vile, +3 Intimidate)
Fighter EWP Spiked Chain (level 2)
Deformity: Tall (-1 AC, +5 Foot Reach) (level 3)

Now, your base reach is 15 feet (20 while raging). Thus, your spiked chain has 30 foot reach (40 while raging). From here on out, cheese out extra feats towards improved trip, robilar's gambit, combat reflexes, or what have you. You have twice the radius of a Fireball spell.

Alternately, you can hold off on the vile feats for a couple levels, taking only 20 and 30 foot reach to start, and pick up combat reflexes, and the like to start with. Thus, at level 2, you'll be the fiend, and at level 3 and 6, you get the extra reach.

For even more cheese, go with a lycanthrope form, like werewolf, and take warshaper for another 5 foot reach at higher levels. That'll boost you to 50 foot reach, with your chain.

Gentlemen, Elvis has left the building. I'm out.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-23, 11:17 PM
Better way to do it:

Half Giant PsiWar/Slayer/Warmind5

EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise. Improved Trip. Combat Reflexes and Karmic Strike. Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack.

Powers to manifest: Psionic Lion's Charge and Expansion (augmented)

In effect:

Huge dude wielding Gargantuan spiked chain with insane reach. Anyone provokes gets smacked. Hard. Because of PA/ST/LA combo, he'll be charging (psionic lion's charge to get full attacks) for max AC to damage. He'll be landing about thirty feet away from his primary target, still within melee range, but far enough away he can repeat the charge again next turn if something survives. Anyone provokes AoO within 30' of him falls over for minimum of a hundred plus damage a hit.

Oh yes, and any time he hits someone, someone else gets hit too, thanks to the Warmind5 ability.

SadisticFishing
2008-02-23, 11:20 PM
(Augmented) Expansion + Half-Ogre is pretty freaking scary with a reach weapon. 15ft size, 30ft reach, that makes a 45ft radius of battlefield ownage. Grab Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, and Stand Still and you're rather hardcore. Woopie.

Nebo_
2008-02-23, 11:32 PM
When you change size, doesn't your powerful build continue to function?

Thus, you could wield a Huge weapon while you are large. This should work, because your equipment grows when you do.

So as a large creature, you would have reach = 30 feet.

If you really want the reach of a Gargantuan creature (with a spiked chain), talk the party wizard into researching that spell, like Jack Zander suggested.

Huge Weapon != Huge Reach

Reach is based on creature size, not weapon size. Why do people not understand this?

SadisticFishing
2008-02-23, 11:47 PM
Huge Weapon != Huge Reach

Reach is based on creature size, not weapon size. Why do people not understand this?

Because it's highly counterintuitive. If my weapon is 15 feet long, why can't I reach 15 feet away with it?

Talic
2008-02-24, 12:25 AM
Because it's highly counterintuitive. If my weapon is 15 feet long, why can't I reach 15 feet away with it?

Because it's not quite. Arms give you reach, grip gives you reach. Your mass helps give you reach. Someone who weighs 400 pounds can stretch a bit farther than someone who weighs 200, allowing his weight to counterbalance. Shorter people may be able to USE it, but they may have to choke up a bit on the hilt, or not stretch it to full length. Thus, they lose the extra bit of reach that the weapon's potential has.

Further, the PsyWar build up there starts being effective around level what? 5? 7? Until then, it's a spiked chain fighter. Good, nothing special. The aberrant trick works at level 2.

Further, they can be combined. Change out Half-giant for Human, go 4 feats with PsyWar, Get EWP Spiked Chain, Weapon focus spiked chain, Aberrant heritage, and Inhuman reach. Now, your attack is balanced by the focus, and later, you can get the Expansion (and then Augmented), along with Willing deformity, and deformity: tall. Heck, throw in lycanthrope and warshaper.

5 foot (base) +5 foot (tall) +5 foot (reach) +5foot (warshaper) +10 foot (size) = 30 foot reach base. Throw on spiked chain, and it's 60 foot reach. Do it with Half giant, and you get an extra +1 ecl, and -1 to hit, but powerful build will push it to 70. Now you can swing your chain disgustingly far.

EDIT: For the penalties given by Half-Giant, I'd rather take Half ogre, and get starting size Large, and better strength. End reach would also be 70 feet.

CthulhuM
2008-02-24, 02:03 AM
It might be worth mentioning that there is also a feat in Savage Species that increases the reach of any "flexible appendage" by 5 feet (and arms enhanced by the aberrant reach feat almost certainly count as flexible appendages). So between those two and the vile feat, you can get a 20 foot base reach from feats alone.

Then, assuming you aren't hellbent on the goliath thing, you can use enlarge person to get yourself a 25 foot base reach, and (if you're a shifter or changeling) take levels in warshaper to get it up to 30 feet. Then throw on your spiked chain, and you've got yourself a 60 foot reach.

Talic
2008-02-24, 02:20 AM
It might be worth mentioning that there is also a feat in Savage Species that increases the reach of any "flexible appendage" by 5 feet (and arms enhanced by the aberrant reach feat almost certainly count as flexible appendages). So between those two and the vile feat, you can get a 20 foot base reach from feats alone.

Then, assuming you aren't hellbent on the goliath thing, you can use enlarge person to get yourself a 25 foot base reach, and (if you're a shifter or changeling) take levels in warshaper to get it up to 30 feet. Then throw on your spiked chain, and you've got yourself a 60 foot reach.

Arms by their nature are flexible.

Add that to my above build, Half ogre PsyWar with deformity (tall), inhuman reach), warshaper reach, expansion 2 size cat growth, and the savage species feat, we've got:

10 base + 5 (tall) + 5 (reach) + 5 (warshaper) +10 (growth) + 5 (savage species feat) = 40 ft reach with a greatsword, or 80 foot with spiked chain. That reach even puts the tarrasque to shame. Also note, the weapon is gargantuan, something like 4d8 + power attack + 1.5 Str + Enhancement on a stand still attack. That'll keep most things paralyzed in your threat range. Let it get 70 feet away, and then stand still wherever it goes.

Since spiked chains are a double weapon, make one side Brilliant energy and the other, hmm, Ghost touch?? You'll tear through armor, and just swing the other side vs ghosts, constructs, etc. Also, the ghost touch should be adamantine, the brilliant energy? Cold Iron.

bugsysservant
2008-02-24, 11:12 AM
Since spiked chains are a double weapon, make one side Brilliant energy and the other, hmm, Ghost touch?? You'll tear through armor, and just swing the other side vs ghosts, constructs, etc. Also, the ghost touch should be adamantine, the brilliant energy? Cold Iron.

A spiked chain isn't a double weapon. It just looks that way because whoever drew it has no idea about how weapons can actually be wielded. Also, ghost touch has no effect on constructs as far as I know. The rest looks good though.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-24, 01:51 PM
It's worse than that- Reach weapons don't add 5 feet of reach, they double whatever you already have.
Can you show me where it says that? I looked everywhere, and can't find where it says reach is doubled.

Actually, I haven't found anything saying what are the exact reach modifiers. Though it makes sense that reach should double, gaining a +5 from the natural attack, and +5 from the weapon. Except that larger weapons doesn't gain a better reach. At least I didn't see anything allowing it. Else, you could use a Large spiked chain with Monkey Grip to get a reach of 15ft, along the damage increase (and bonus on resisted checks).

bugsysservant
2008-02-24, 01:59 PM
Can you show me where it says that? I looked everywhere, and can't find where it says reach is doubled.

Actually, I haven't found anything saying what are the exact reach modifiers. Though it makes sense that reach should double, gaining a +5 from the natural attack, and +5 from the weapon. Except that larger weapons doesn't gain a better reach. At least I didn't see anything allowing it. Else, you could use a Large spiked chain with Monkey Grip to get a reach of 15ft, along the damage increase (and bonus on resisted checks).

From the SRD:
Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Keld Denar
2008-02-25, 10:28 AM
All the above said, a goliath should be using a large sized weapon of whatever type he likes at all times. While it doesn't gain any extra reach in normal form, there are no penalties due to Powerful Build and the damage die bump is nice. Then, when said goliath becomes large due to Mountain Rage (a nonmagical enlarge effect that DOES NOT affect equipment), he is a large creature using a large weapon and gains all associated reach allowed per weapon type.

One thing I always wondered though, and a spiked chain doesn't have this problem, but what happens to the dead zone on a polearm like a glaive when you become larger? Does the dead zone stay at adjacent (5') or does it double as well? For example, an ogre with a glaive, can he attack something at 10'? or does the dead zone on a glaive extend out so he can only attack at 15' and 20'?

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-25, 11:00 AM
Mountain Rage+Enlarge Person+Spiked Chain=Cheese?

Fixed that for you.

The sheer number of "Well you can do this too!" should indicate that. :smalltongue:

Also, the fact that almost every melee build seems to involve Spiked Chains...

I say you avoid the obvious cheese schtick and go for the Scythe. It's a crappy weapon except for the crit multiplier. It has a lot of style though. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-02-25, 11:20 AM
Spiked Chain gets a lot of flack for being an overpowered weapon, but in reality, its reach in general that is strong, but not nearly overpowered. Once you get past about level 4, you start encountering a lot of things that are large(tall) and have 10' natural reach. To counter this, a smart fighter buys himself a reach weapon to avoid having to charge through a threatened area and soak up an AoO in most situations. Its kind of a scaling arms race between a fighter and the bigger badder monsters.

The spiked chain allows a fighter to trade money and and feat investments for a single feat, EWPL: Spiked Chain. He could get a much similar effect with a glaive or other polearm and armor spike, at the loss of some money (enchanting spikes) and combat effectiveness (feats spent on primary weapon type not applying to spikes, spikes have lower base damage and can't be 2handed for power attack returns). Unfortunately, its the only weapon that can do what it can do, which is why a lot of people take it. If there were 4-5 weapons that did what a spiked chain did, I'm sure that they would be just as viable weapons for similar but slightly different situations.

Its not broken or overpowered, just unique and a smart choice tactically.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-25, 11:27 AM
Spiked Chain gets a lot of flack for being an overpowered weapon, but in reality, its reach in general that is strong, but not nearly overpowered. Once you get past about level 4, you start encountering a lot of things that are large(tall) and have 10' natural reach. To counter this, a smart fighter buys himself a reach weapon to avoid having to charge through a threatened area and soak up an AoO in most situations. Its kind of a scaling arms race between a fighter and the bigger badder monsters.

The spiked chain allows a fighter to trade money and and feat investments for a single feat, EWPL: Spiked Chain. He could get a much similar effect with a glaive or other polearm and armor spike, at the loss of some money (enchanting spikes) and combat effectiveness (feats spent on primary weapon type not applying to spikes, spikes have lower base damage and can't be 2handed for power attack returns). Unfortunately, its the only weapon that can do what it can do, which is why a lot of people take it. If there were 4-5 weapons that did what a spiked chain did, I'm sure that they would be just as viable weapons for similar but slightly different situations.

Its not broken or overpowered, just unique and a smart choice tactically.

I think we are going to severely disagree on this. While it is fundamentally all by itself not *that* broken...

It certainly isn't unique, since almost every build involving Reach uses the Spiked Chain.

As for it's brokeness....the lack of a deadzone and it's ability to trip and getting a disarm bonus...

I just question the game balance of a weapon that everyone chooses consistantly.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-25, 11:28 AM
From the SRD:
Ah, thank you. I don't know how I missed that :smallfrown: Gotta start reading the rules more detailed.
Weird that the weapon changes the wielder's reach, instead of adding to it... well, one more of WotC's weird rules.
Does it means that whips multiply it by 3?

Ascension
2008-02-25, 11:34 AM
Look, I fully know spiked chains are overused, and that their overuse detracts from the verisimilitude of D&D. Before using any chain build, I'd make sure that no one else in the party was using a chain. I really love the scythe for, as you said, the style points. I definitely want to play a goliath as my next character (well, if my next DM allows it, of course), and if I don't go with the chain-wielding, mountain-raging barbarian, I'm building a scythe-wielding warblade. This was just a thought experiment, and I'm glad I posted it, because I wouldn't have realized without this thread that my character wasn't a person until too late... heh...

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-25, 11:46 AM
Look, I fully know spiked chains are overused, and that their overuse detracts from the verisimilitude of D&D. Before using any chain build, I'd make sure that no one else in the party was using a chain. I really love the scythe for, as you said, the style points. I definitely want to play a goliath as my next character (well, if my next DM allows it, of course), and if I don't go with the chain-wielding, mountain-raging barbarian, I'm building a scythe-wielding warblade. This was just a thought experiment, and I'm glad I posted it, because I wouldn't have realized without this thread that my character wasn't a person until too late... heh...

No, no.. don't misunderstand me. I wans't talking about *you* specifically, just in a general sense. I just no longer find Spiked Chains unique in the same way I no longer find the twin weapon wielding drow/orc/evil race character with a huge dose of agnst to be unique.

If you wanna do Spiked Chains, by all means, do Spike Chain; I am not fully trying to hijack the thread.

Just a little. :smallbiggrin:

Honestly though, if I were to ever play 3.5 again, and I were hankering to play a Spiked Chain wielder...

I would play a Chain Devil. But that's just me. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, perhaps those two ideas can come together?

You could take leadership and get a chain devil minion.

Draz74
2008-02-25, 11:47 AM
The spiked chain allows a fighter to trade money and and feat investments for a single feat, EWPL: Spiked Chain. He could get a much similar effect with a glaive or other polearm and armor spike, at the loss of some money (enchanting spikes) and combat effectiveness (feats spent on primary weapon type not applying to spikes, spikes have lower base damage and can't be 2handed for power attack returns). Unfortunately, its the only weapon that can do what it can do, which is why a lot of people take it. If there were 4-5 weapons that did what a spiked chain did, I'm sure that they would be just as viable weapons for similar but slightly different situations.

One of the few feats from Dragon Magazine that should have made it into a full rulebook is the one that lets you use any reach weapon at short range at a -2 penalty. I forget what it's called, but it's helpful to a build, makes a lot of sense, and is balanced.

PHB II tried to do a similar thing with the Short Haft feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl), which is another option, but it's not as good IMHO. Still ... it's another option if you like the Spiked Chain mechanically, but you'd rather have a more traditional weapon flavor-wise. If you don't have many other swift action abilities, Glaive + Short Haft might be just as good as Spiked Chain + EWP.

Keld Denar
2008-02-25, 12:05 PM
I think we are going to severely disagree on this. While it is fundamentally all by itself not *that* broken...

It certainly isn't unique, since almost every build involving Reach uses the Spiked Chain.

As for it's brokeness....the lack of a deadzone and it's ability to trip and getting a disarm bonus...

I just question the game balance of a weapon that everyone chooses consistantly.

Honestly, if you made the exact weapon but took away the tripping and disarming bonus, I think everyone would still use it. It would lose some versitility (no chaingun tripper builds) but the feature that is most appealing with a spiked chain is the lack of the deadzone. It is unfortunate that that single feature wasn't replicated in hardly any weapons (unless you dig deep in sourcebooks, such as the meteor hammer or drow scorpion chain).

If there was a martial version of spiked chain that didn't have the trip or disarm features, it would probably trump the spiked chain as the most commonly used weapon in the game.

Ascension
2008-02-25, 06:35 PM
Eh? There are ways to threaten in the dead zone other than the spiked chain? Glorious day! I actually really dislike the chain in the hands of good-aligned characters (it still looks awesome in the hands of evil, though). If I could just wield a polearm without having that annoying blind spot I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Short haft is a little annoying, but it sounds more fun from a roleplaying perspective than Chain cheese. I might try it instead.

There really ought to be a magical enhancement for reach weapons that would allow you to use them within five feet (or ten for large, etc.). Like "retractable" or something. You could really have some fun with it. "I've got a spear! No, I have a pike! Wait, don't look now, but it's really a javelin!"

Keld Denar
2008-02-25, 06:57 PM
As I posted ealier a couple months ago, just reflavor it. Call it a long polearm (reach) with a spiked handguard where your forehand goes (close). Add a nasty hook on the end of it (trip n +2 disarm). Make it light enough that it can be maneuvered agile-like, and boom, its finessable and walla, you have a spiked chain that isn't a spiked chain.

I came up with that in about 30 seconds. I could have a friend who is good at freehand sketching drop one on paper, and I can 99/100 garuntee it won't look nearly as silly as the sketch of a spiked chain in the PHB.

Ryuuk
2008-02-25, 07:10 PM
There really ought to be a magical enhancement for reach weapons that would allow you to use them within five feet (or ten for large, etc.). Like "retractable" or something. You could really have some fun with it. "I've got a spear! No, I have a pike! Wait, don't look now, but it's really a javelin!"

I think there's a property in the MIC that does just that, called changling or something. I'm not sure what action it takes though.

Draz74
2008-02-25, 07:33 PM
As I posted ealier a couple months ago, just reflavor it. Call it a long polearm (reach) with a spiked handguard where your forehand goes (close). Add a nasty hook on the end of it (trip n +2 disarm). Make it light enough that it can be maneuvered agile-like, and boom, its finessable and walla, you have a spiked chain that isn't a spiked chain.

Reflavoring like this is great, but I'd prefer not to have to do it. For example, the way you describe it, I'd start to wonder: why is this weapon Exotic again?

Oh, and FYI the word is "voila."


and I can 99/100 garuntee it won't look nearly as silly as the sketch of a spiked chain in the PHB.

Now that I can wholeheartedly believe. :smallwink:

Kompera
2008-02-25, 10:49 PM
I think we are going to severely disagree on this. While it is fundamentally all by itself not *that* broken...

It certainly isn't unique, since almost every build involving Reach uses the Spiked Chain.

As for it's brokeness....the lack of a deadzone and it's ability to trip and getting a disarm bonus...

I just question the game balance of a weapon that everyone chooses consistantly.

There is that small issue of what your group uses consistently vs. what other groups use consistently. In my experience, it's the Greatsword which is the "weapon that everyone chooses consistently." And why is that? Ah, yes, I remember now. It's the single best damage dealing 2-H weapon, if you take averages on damage dice and criticals. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain also has one unique advantage. It's the sole weapon which doesn't require an additional feat (Short Haft) to be used against adjacent opponents as well as at a range. In exchange, it requires an EWP to wield without penalty. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain's + 2 to Disarm attempts and the ability to Trip are not at all unique. Several other weapons have one or both of those abilities, including several reach weapons.

Unless all weapons are "vanillaized" there will always be weapons which are selected by more players over other options, due to their superiority. Want more frequent criticals, perhaps combined with weapon enchants and Feats to further broaden that range? Want high damage and a 2-H weapon for potent Power Attack damage? Want to make melee strikes at a range, protecting your squishy friends by tripping those who would attack them? There are several weapon options for each of those roles, but for each there is one choice which offers more mechanical advantage. That's not cheese, it's an inevitable consequence of having a broad selection of weapon options and special rules.

Stycotl
2008-02-25, 11:59 PM
There is that small issue of what your group uses consistently vs. what other groups use consistently. In my experience, it's the Greatsword which is the "weapon that everyone chooses consistently." And why is that? Ah, yes, I remember now. It's the single best damage dealing 2-H weapon, if you take averages on damage dice and criticals. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain also has one unique advantage. It's the sole weapon which doesn't require an additional feat (Short Haft) to be used against adjacent opponents as well as at a range. In exchange, it requires an EWP to wield without penalty. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain's + 2 to Disarm attempts and the ability to Trip are not at all unique. Several other weapons have one or both of those abilities, including several reach weapons.

Unless all weapons are "vanillaized" there will always be weapons which are selected by more players over other options, due to their superiority. Want more frequent criticals, perhaps combined with weapon enchants and Feats to further broaden that range? Want high damage and a 2-H weapon for potent Power Attack damage? Want to make melee strikes at a range, protecting your squishy friends by tripping those who would attack them? There are several weapon options for each of those roles, but for each there is one choice which offers more mechanical advantage. That's not cheese, it's an inevitable consequence of having a broad selection of weapon options and special rules.

i second this opinion. in the three groups with which i have consistently gamed over the past couple of years, i have not once seen a spiked chain (or even a variant). i think that the most common weapons i have noticed were greatsword, rapier, and greataxe, in aproximately that order. i think i might try something like this just to mix things up.

just to add my opinion: i think that a weapon that requires an exotic proficiency, that can strike close and far at no penalty, and has some cool tactical bonuses, is perfectly fine next to a polearm that requries shorthaft or some-such, that gets some cool tactical bonuses, that can strike near and far at a penalty, and does more damage.

unlike classes, weapons don't need to be balanced against each other that much. simple, martial, and exotic are about it. there are many weapons that are strategically and damage-wise superior to others. different training and tactics can change that, dependent on the situation, but does not generally change the fact that a longsword is going to beat out a dagger, and a longbow is going to beat out a sling.

aaron out.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-26, 05:05 AM
In core, all polearms do the same damage as the spiked chain and offer fewer tactical options(less trip and disarming weapons). Even using Short Haft(a non-core feat, eliminating the penalty of EWP) they still are less useful for lockdown builds due to the Swift Action thing.

Also, the only reason noone uses them is because the community has declared the mega-cheese and I've never seen a group cheese that much.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-26, 08:21 AM
There is that small issue of what your group uses consistently vs. what other groups use consistently. In my experience, it's the Greatsword which is the "weapon that everyone chooses consistently." And why is that? Ah, yes, I remember now. It's the single best damage dealing 2-H weapon, if you take averages on damage dice and criticals. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain also has one unique advantage. It's the sole weapon which doesn't require an additional feat (Short Haft) to be used against adjacent opponents as well as at a range. In exchange, it requires an EWP to wield without penalty. Does that make it cheesy?

The Spiked Chain's + 2 to Disarm attempts and the ability to Trip are not at all unique. Several other weapons have one or both of those abilities, including several reach weapons.

Unless all weapons are "vanillaized" there will always be weapons which are selected by more players over other options, due to their superiority. Want more frequent criticals, perhaps combined with weapon enchants and Feats to further broaden that range? Want high damage and a 2-H weapon for potent Power Attack damage? Want to make melee strikes at a range, protecting your squishy friends by tripping those who would attack them? There are several weapon options for each of those roles, but for each there is one choice which offers more mechanical advantage. That's not cheese, it's an inevitable consequence of having a broad selection of weapon options and special rules.

Oh no, I see plenty of Greatsword wielders as well and for that matter Bastard Sword and Rapier wielders too.

That's the problem though, when it is a no brainer for what weapon you will take because it is *clearly* better than everything else in it's catagory, something is wrong.

Even if we expand it and say there are five weapons to choose from, isn't that a problem? Neither choice of fixing it seems appealing either - either gimp the good weapons or improve the weaker.

Triaxx
2008-02-26, 09:20 AM
And going back to the comment about Ghost Touch doing nothing special on Constructs, that's alright. But Brilliant Energy does no damage, so...

Anyway, the chain itself is not cheesy, the implementations of it can be. If we're going to eliminate all cheese, we'd be left playing Paladin's and Bards, neither with magic, and both weilding daggers.

Keld Denar
2008-02-26, 12:10 PM
The thing that makes me maddest is the importance the devs placed on damage die. Really, when the actual roll of the die is only about 20% of the total damage done with the attack, it really makes little difference whether you are rolling a d6 or a d8. The damage die was weighted too heavily IMO when deciding what class the weapons should be put into. I'll tell you what, if there was a weapon that did 1d1 damage, but had a crit threat range of 17-20 and a x4 mutiplier, I'd take it in a heart beat. Things like finessability, crit range, crit multiplier, reach, tripping weapon, and various other bonuses are really what make a big difference in weapon selection, moreso IMO than die size, or at least past 1st level.

Person_Man
2008-02-26, 03:19 PM
Things that increase reach:

Reach Weapon: Doubles reach.
Wildshape/Polymorph: Turn into something bigger.
Enlarge Person: +1 size, only works on humanoids.
Expansion (doesn't stack with Enlarge Person): +1 or +2 size.
Mountain Rage: Makes you Large while you Rage.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall (Heroes of Horror): +5 ft.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness): +5 ft.
Extended Reach (req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft.
3 levels of Warshaper (Comp Warrior): +5 ft, but only with natural weapons.

I think there's also a few other spells and feats out there that extend reach on a situational basis. But I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Anywho, that's not a particularly abusive Goliath combo. If you were a PC in my game, I'd have no problem with it.

THIS is an abusive Goliath combo.

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of DOOM!!!

Goliath
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

or

Half-Giant
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

If your DM cares about experience penalties for multi-classing, you'll want to use Goliath Barbarian 6/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/full BAB class. Or if you're willing to give up all day Pounce, the quickest method to get the combo working is Half Giant Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Hold the Line, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Karmic Strike.

Other Feats for Consideration: Improved Unarmed Strike, Battle Jump, Mage Slayer, Extra Rage.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), Dungeonscape (Dungeon Crasher ability), Complete Champion (Barbarian Pounce variant).

Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach. Also, you should also note that all whips, including fire lashes, don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. So you'll need Improved Unarmed Strike, armor spikes, or a natural weapon to make AoO. My preference is Claws of the Beast. Note that the FAQ specifically clarifies that you can switch between a two handed weapon and a natural weapon for in the same round. If your DM doesn't agree with the FAQ, you can use Bite of the Wolf or dip into a one level of Monk instead.

There are also a variety of spells, feats, items, and special abilities that improve your natural reach, and I suggest you use whatever you can.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your Fire Lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack to increase your damage. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If your enemy is standing next to another enemy, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). Since Sweeping Strike requires that you move no more then 10 feet during your turn, you can use Hustle+Psionic Dimension Door to move around the battlefield. But your reach is pretty huge, so you shouldn't have to do that very often. You can also just wait for your enemies to come to you, and ready an action to smack them when they come near you.

Each enemy that you hit gets a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback) on each attack, applying your damage and Leap Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper, again).

Assuming you still threaten their spaces, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack (Improved Trip), and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Shock Trooper+Improved Trip combo. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

If you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

And at any time you can Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other inanimate object, you get to use the Dungeon Crasher ability to deal an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage, in addition to your insane Leap Attack damage. This is really easy to pull off, since with Shock Trooper and your uber Bull Rush multiplier, you should be able to fling enemies pretty far. Alternatively, you can have a friend summon a wall in the middle of the battlefield, forcing your enemies to walk around it, and giving you something to Bull Rush them into.
Also note that dead bodies are considered objects, and not allies or enemies. So once you kill something, you should be able to fling enemies into their dead comrades (though your DM will probably rule that they need to be Large size or bigger in order for this to work).

In addition, a whip provokes an AoO from your enemy whenever you use it while adjacent to it. This is a great opportunity for you, because thanks to Karmic Strike it essentially gives you another chance to start up your chain of attacks if by some odd chance you miss on your first touch attack. Though obviously if you're more defense oriented, you'll want to keep your enemies 10 feet away from you when you hit them with the lash.

Using the Complete Champion Barbarian variant, you get Pounce. So you get a full attack virtually every round.

Or if you'd prefer better Expansion and less Pounce, you can dump your Barbarian levels and invest in more Warmind levels earlier instead, depending on Psionic Lion's Charge or Hustle when you need a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack, in addition to the normal AoO you'd get for them moving through your threatened area. Which AGAIN, can trigger your combo.

Be sure to buy a backup reach weapon that doesn't deal fire damage. Your DM is most definitely going to throw fire immune enemies at you. See Invisibility or something similar will also help a lot, as will flight.

Also, I'm well aware that this requires an obscene number of feats for the full combo to work. If you think its too many, just drop feats from the end of the list. All you really need is Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Knockback, Shock Trooper, and Dungeoncrasher. Everything else is just gravy.

Draz74
2008-02-26, 10:15 PM
The Iron Heart Stance "Dancing Blade Form" should perhaps not be overlooked.

Ascension
2008-02-27, 02:18 AM
I know the Desert Wind Burning Brand boost gives +5 ft. reach as well. Since the chain is one of Shadow Hand's signature weapons, I've got a mostly for fun completely dex-based whisper gnome swordsage build that uses weapon finesse and shadow blade to remove any need for strength in melee. The sky-high dex opens up the possibility of an obscenely large number of extra AOOs with combat reflexes, and burning brand can get me at least one turn of 15ft reach. It's not going to shut any battlefield down, but it's still pretty nice for a Small PC.

Oh, I'm sure you could cheese that out much farther, too, but I'm not really interested. In fact, now that I know enlarge person won't work on a goliath, I'm pretty certain I'm just going to go warblade with my goliath character and be done with it. Maybe I'll have some fun with a scythe, just for style points.

Goodbye, optimization. It was fun while it lasted.

Talic
2008-02-27, 02:30 AM
THIS is an abusive Goliath combo.

Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of DOOM!!!

Goliath
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

or

Half-Giant
Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X

If your DM cares about experience penalties for multi-classing, you'll want to use Goliath Barbarian 6/Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/full BAB class. Or if you're willing to give up all day Pounce, the quickest method to get the combo working is Half Giant Fighter 6/Pyrokineticist 1/Warmind 5/Full BAB class X.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Hold the Line, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Karmic Strike.

Other Feats for Consideration: Improved Unarmed Strike, Battle Jump, Mage Slayer, Extra Rage.

Books: SRD, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone (Knockback), Unapproachable East (Battle Jump), Dungeonscape (Dungeon Crasher ability), Complete Champion (Barbarian Pounce variant).

Before combat, use the Expansion power on yourself to increase your reach. Also, you should also note that all whips, including fire lashes, don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. So you'll need Improved Unarmed Strike, armor spikes, or a natural weapon to make AoO. My preference is Claws of the Beast. Note that the FAQ specifically clarifies that you can switch between a two handed weapon and a natural weapon for in the same round. If your DM doesn't agree with the FAQ, you can use Bite of the Wolf or dip into a one level of Monk instead.

There are also a variety of spells, feats, items, and special abilities that improve your natural reach, and I suggest you use whatever you can.

Charge 10 feet into your enemy. Make a touch attack with your Fire Lash as a two-handed weapon (as it explicitly says you can in the FAQ). Transfer your full BAB to Leap Attack to increase your damage. Make sure that your initial enemy is close to you when you attack him if possible, as you want to keep your enemies in your threatened area each time you knock him back.

If your enemy is standing next to another enemy, each attack also applies to them (Warmind Sweeping Strike). Since Sweeping Strike requires that you move no more then 10 feet during your turn, you can use Hustle+Psionic Dimension Door to move around the battlefield. But your reach is pretty huge, so you shouldn't have to do that very often. You can also just wait for your enemies to come to you, and ready an action to smack them when they come near you.

Each enemy that you hit gets a free Bull Rush attempt (Knockback) on each attack, applying your damage and Leap Attack bonus to the opposed Str check.

This should allow you to push your enemy several spaces backwards. For each space you move your enemy backwards, you may also shift him one hex to the left or the right (Shock Trooper). If this pushes your enemy into the same hex as another enemy, you get a free Trip Attempt on each of them (Shock Trooper, again).

Assuming you still threaten their spaces, each successful Trip gets a free follow up attack (Improved Trip), and each successful melee attack gets a free Bull Rush, which can start another Shock Trooper+Improved Trip combo. And every melee attack can also apply to someone standing next to your enemy using Sweeping Strike.

If you kill someone (you will) you get a Cleave attack, which will also apply to whoever is standing next to them, and start the Attack+Bull Rush+Trip+Attack... combo, again.

And at any time you can Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or other inanimate object, you get to use the Dungeon Crasher ability to deal an extra 8d6 + (3 x Str mod) damage, in addition to your insane Leap Attack damage. This is really easy to pull off, since with Shock Trooper and your uber Bull Rush multiplier, you should be able to fling enemies pretty far. Alternatively, you can have a friend summon a wall in the middle of the battlefield, forcing your enemies to walk around it, and giving you something to Bull Rush them into.
Also note that dead bodies are considered objects, and not allies or enemies. So once you kill something, you should be able to fling enemies into their dead comrades (though your DM will probably rule that they need to be Large size or bigger in order for this to work).

In addition, a whip provokes an AoO from your enemy whenever you use it while adjacent to it. This is a great opportunity for you, because thanks to Karmic Strike it essentially gives you another chance to start up your chain of attacks if by some odd chance you miss on your first touch attack. Though obviously if you're more defense oriented, you'll want to keep your enemies 10 feet away from you when you hit them with the lash.

Using the Complete Champion Barbarian variant, you get Pounce. So you get a full attack virtually every round.

Or if you'd prefer better Expansion and less Pounce, you can dump your Barbarian levels and invest in more Warmind levels earlier instead, depending on Psionic Lion's Charge or Hustle when you need a full attack.

If someone charges you (they pretty much have to in order reach you) you get a free AoO from Hold the Line, resolved immediately before the charge attack, in addition to the normal AoO you'd get for them moving through your threatened area. Which AGAIN, can trigger your combo.

Be sure to buy a backup reach weapon that doesn't deal fire damage. Your DM is most definitely going to throw fire immune enemies at you. See Invisibility or something similar will also help a lot, as will flight.

Also, I'm well aware that this requires an obscene number of feats for the full combo to work. If you think its too many, just drop feats from the end of the list. All you really need is Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Knockback, Shock Trooper, and Dungeoncrasher. Everything else is just gravy.

Any ability that gives you the ability to bull rush someone more than 5 feet without following them into their square? Otherwise, you're limited to a 5 foot push, regardless of how thoroughly you beat them.

Also, while this works well for mass numbers battles, against one or two oversized quadrupeds, or fast creatures with Spring attack, or creatures immune to trip (such as a flying opponent), it has its weaknesses.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 01:07 PM
3.0 chainmaster or whatever that PrC with the chain fetish is, has a 4th(?) level ability that turns a spiked chain into a double weapon by reducing the reach by 5 feet.