Alucard (hellsing) Vs. Sauron (lotr)

[thubby]

Alucard, the vampire supreme, with absurd regenerative abilities and powerful magics.

up against the master of the ring himself.

WHO WILL WIN?!

[Callos_DeTerran]

ANBU have been dispatched to deal with you, make your peace. Good-day.

[thubby]

ANBU have been dispatched to deal with you, make your peace. Good-day.

i'm afraid I don't follow. :smallconfused:

[Oslecamo]

ANBU have been dispatched to deal with you, make your peace. Good-day.

Isn't ANBU the elite forces of the Naruto world, wich despite being elite seem to be slaughtered by everyone and anyone except other ANBU forces?

EDIT:Anyway, I think that for the first time I see someone who would give Sauron a run for his money. Alucard is pretty much unkillable, fights god level beings for amusement, can generate spawns, and his guns would make a space marine envious, being able to shot enemies trough solid stone columns.

[warty goblin]

Could you please bother to come up with a context and basic info on the characters?

[Guts]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alucard_%28Hellsing%29

The article is a bit incoherent but has a good list for Alucard's powers and attitude in battle. I'll leave to Rowan and his worshipers to stat out Sauron's powers. I'd put my money with the vampire though.

[Oslecamo]

Could you please bother to come up with a context and basic info on the characters?

Well, Alucard is a very very old vampire, and since in his world there are several demonic forces it is possible that Middle earth was a past age of the world of Hellsing.

So we have a young Hellsing who feels bored and decides to take the other biggest strongest guy available at the moment, aka Sauron.

That or the typical "interdimensional portal opens" and Alucard is teleported to the world of LOTR.

[Seraph]

Alucard.


I can see sauron now:

"You fool, I am the lord of Middle Earth, a godly being, armed with the one ring of power! I can control hey, how did my torso get all the way over there?"

[warty goblin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alucard_%28Hellsing%29

The article is a bit incoherent but has a good list for Alucard's powers and attitude in battle. I'll leave to Rowan and his worshipers to stat out Sauron's powers. I'd put my money with the vampire though.

Has to do with anime. I'm outa here.

[Oslecamo]

Has to do with anime. I'm outa here.

It refers to both the books and the anime.

[warty goblin]

It refers to both the books and the anime.

I stand corrected: It has to do with both anime and manga. Now I'm really out of here.

[EvilElitest]

Nether of them can die, so what do they just burn/shoot each other forever? I don't know how you kill Alucard, and Sauron has the ring trick, so yeah......it is kinda absurd
from
EE

Edit
Oh and Warty Goblins, read/watch Full Metal Alchemist, it will change your view on anime forever. Or death note

[Oslecamo]

Oh and Warty Goblins, read/watch Full Metal Alchemist, it will change your view on anime forever. Or death note

Let me show you the impression I got from Fullmetalalchemist combat:

I can change matter at will at almost instant speed! I can create a vast array of explosives and weapons, change the landscape itself and much more!

Did I mention there are gunpowder weapons available?

Thus in 90% of my fights I shall create a regular melee weapon and engange the enemy in close combat instead of using my powers to shoot things at them from a distance untill they die.

Did I mention half my enemies are immune to regular weapons? And that I still insist in trying to defeat them with my martial arts and pointy things?

I could carry a weapon, since I work for the government and all. But instead of that I will sacrifice matter from my own artificial arm and then act suprised when it breacks during battle.

[EvilElitest]

Let me show you the impression I got from Fullmetalalchemist combat:



I was talking about the plot/characters but ok, the combat is based off of real science, how cool is that. Not exact science and they do go into fantasy, but still


I can change matter at will at almost instant speed! I can create a vast array of explosives and weapons, change the landscape itself and much more!

Pretty much, except most of that requires both the right materials, and some nasty stuff (Kimblee)


Did I mention there are gunpowder weapons available?

More advanced than gunpowder, WWI tech. And yes, notice in the fights that ed avoids fighting dudes with guns if he can help it.


Thus in 90% of my fights I shall create a regular melee weapon and engange the enemy in close combat instead of using my powers to shoot things at them from a distance untill they die.

Well in most of the fights he has (in the anime) he
A) doesn't want to kill them
B) they are using melee weapons as well
C) it would cause to much collateral damage, take to much time, or be ineffective


Did I mention half my enemies are immune to regular weapons? And that I still insist in trying to defeat them with my martial arts and pointy things?

Only 8 dudes are immune to bullets, and even they don't like them. Also ed fights them with his first and alchemy because he is a crappy shot



I could carry a weapon, since I work for the government and all. But instead of that I will sacrifice matter from my own artificial arm and then act suprised when it breacks during battle.
Guns are over rated:smallwink:

Except in FMA, guns do make a difference, i mean Archer is a killing machine but is shot in the back. They don't do anything as absurd as blocking bullets with swords or using the power of the air to hurt their foes

not perfect but still
from
EE

[Oslecamo]

Based off real science is stretching a little. Or a lot.

In the begginning it seems as they actually have rules.

But as the show advances things just start to become silly.

Kimblee is always complaining he needs special organic materials to make bombs, and then he goes and transforms a full plate of armor into a bomb for example.

Ed's mentor, that woman, somehow survives whitout half of her organs, because suposedly the other half is doing the work. No sense no matter how you look at it from a cientific point of view.

Ed himself changes the kind of material his artificial arm is made off.
Stone is transformed into metal, metal into wood, wood into crystals, the mass is almost never maintained...

The alchemy rules seem to be broken left and right just for plot and showoff reasons.

As for the characters and plot, well, it's actually good. For the first time the government remembers to take the uber power that exists in that world and use it in its favor.

As a final point, I can't believe Ed managed to learn all that crazy kung fu, but couldn't learn to shoot.

This is, the priest in the first episode is weaker than Ed, and manages to transmute a staff into a heavy machine gun. I'm 100% sure a weapon of that kind would have helped Ed a lot more than the shortsword he usually uses.

Im pretty sure he could made it loaded with rubber bullets in case he didn't want to kill the oponent.

[Rutee]

I stand corrected: It has to do with both anime and manga. Now I'm really out of here.

Welcome to my interpretation of Lord of the Rings, as far as the book goes.

[warty goblin]

Welcome to my interpretation of Lord of the Rings, as far as the book goes.

Truly Rutee, you are the yin to my yang on these matters...we only ever intersect on vs. threads.

By the way, what is your avatar supposed to be? I honestly can't tell.

[EvilElitest]

As i said i like the plot


Based off real science is stretching a little. Or a lot.

In the begginning it seems as they actually have rules.


More than most shows can say



But as the show advances things just start to become silly.

Kimblee is always complaining he needs special organic materials to make bombs, and then he goes and transforms a full plate of armor into a bomb for example.

I think the explosive materials are needed in iron ore that exits in human bodies, but not in raw rocks. Thus he couldn't blow up the fortress wall but he could blow up the armor.


Ed's mentor, that woman, somehow survives whitout half of her organs, because suposedly the other half is doing the work. No sense no matter how you look at it from a cientific point of view.

We don't know what organs are missing or how that works, it is kinda of a vague detail


Ed himself changes the kind of material his artificial arm is made off.
Stone is transformed into metal, metal into wood, wood into crystals, the mass is almost never maintained...

I think ed changes the compisition of his arm, not the material in it. Also he mentions that is screws up the design
The stone is normally changed in shape, not in material, through iron does come out of stone. i don't recall the wood tricks



As for the characters and plot, well, it's actually good. For the first time the government remembers to take the uber power that exists in that world and use it in its favor.
Also Further Bradly is awsome


As a final point, I can't believe Ed managed to learn all that crazy kung fu, but couldn't learn to shoot.

That is never made clear, in the manga his gun skills are handwaved but not in the anime, where he never uses a gun


This is, the priest in the first episode is weaker than Ed, and manages to transmute a staff into a heavy machine gun. I'm 100% sure a weapon of that kind would have helped Ed a lot more than the shortsword he usually uses.


The priest had the stone, that allows him to break the rules. Ed couldn't make a gun from those materials, the one time he tries explosives it almost back fires, that is why Kimblee is so special, he has mastered the art of making explosive devices.

from
EE

[Selrahc]

I was talking about the plot/characters but ok, the combat is based off of real science, how cool is that. Not exact science and they do go into fantasy, but still

What? Seriously?!

Full Metal Alchemists system is a magical one. The characters generate crazy reactions by drawing magic symbols.

Sure, no new material is created(Well, it is. But In Setting logic, its not supposed to be), but that is far from making it anything but full blown magic.


Its a cool series, but it is a far cry from being scientific.

[Rutee]

I actually wasn't aware that you posted elsewhere, so it would appear to be slightly difficult to intersect in some other locale.

And it's a super-distorted version of the most esteemed Gate Guard in one of the Touhou series of games, a little adorable redhead who's seeming purpose in life is to be abused by all the people in the mansion she guards.

Edit: He's saying it's scientific? Yeahno. It's very, very very vaguely based in chemistry, but only insofar as Input = Output, in terms of chemicals. Granted, the energy and whatnot that's supposed to also be accounted for is pretty explicitly magic, but they break their own rules on a fair occasion. It's a fun series, but it's really, really, REALLY not scientific.

[warty goblin]

I actually wasn't aware that you posted elsewhere, so it would appear to be slightly difficult to intersect in some other locale.

And it's a super-distorted version of the most esteemed Gate Guard in one of the Touhou series of games, a little adorable redhead who's seeming purpose in life is to be abused by all the people in the mansion she guards.



Well, I did post on the Firefly thread, the Babylon 5 thread, and I post a bit in the "Other Games" forum as well. But yes, I do seem to hit the vs. threads pretty hard. They really are the best avenue for debate and discussion that I have right now.

And good to know about the avatar. I had it nailed down as almost certainly human, and probably female, but beyond that I was without a clue.

My avatar by the way is a pixal doing its best Biege Lobby Carpeting impression.

[Jimblee]

What is with all these X vs Sauron threads going around?

Sauron is basically a god. I mean, he's not only the single most powerful entity on Middle Earth, but quite literally the second-in-command to evil itself.

The only way to end Sauron is by destroying his ring, and any outside challenges assumes that he either has his ring on him, Mt. Doom is impossible to reach, or the ring isn't involved. And if the ring is on him, then lets not forget that it gives him the power to dominate creatures of a lesser innate power than him, which means "anything that isn't a god", as well as vastly increase every other power available to him.

The only times Sauron has ever failed to completely eliminate an enemy is in large-scale military battles, when his forces fled. And I believe once or twice against other god-like entities of equal scale to him.

And anyway, Alucard is mortal - he's just given long life and bizarre powers. Mortals can't win against gods, thats all there is to it

edit: Just to give you an impression - think of Gandalf, all the magic available to him, all the knowledge and skill and power. Gandalf is just a step above mortals. Now imagine what "two below Eru" can do.

[Seraph]

jimblee, Alucard has killed gods before.

[Jimblee]

I don't think it particularly matters what he's killed in the past, because the parameters for killing Sauron are pretty well defined as being out of his limits


But I'm backing out, since I don't know much about this vampire man

[Xuincherguixe]

Hey, this is a good one. Both are essentially god like figures.

I'm going to say Alucard. He was a bit smarter a person.

Truthfully though, both are that archetype where they need to be defeated by forces of good. And, it's not like either of them can trick a good person into doing their bidding either. So I suppose it becomes a question of who's most likely to attract attention. And while Alucard is generally brutal and violent, I think he could probably maintain a low profile if he actually wanted to.

[EvilElitest]

What? Seriously?!

Full Metal Alchemists system is a magical one. The characters generate crazy reactions by drawing magic symbols.

Sure, no new material is created(Well, it is. But In Setting logic, its not supposed to be), but that is far from making it anything but full blown magic.


Its a cool series, but it is a far cry from being scientific.

No the pretense of a scientific system, they use the table of elements, the concepts of mass, scienctific logic. Sure it isn't totally true (more so in the anime) but it is still a pretty cool and semi science like system. In short, cool rules for the magic that don't totally ravage my suspension of disbelief
from
EE

[warty goblin]

Hey, this is a good one. Both are essentially god like figures.

I'm going to say Alucard. He was a bit smarter a person.

Truthfully though, both are that archetype where they need to be defeated by forces of good. And, it's not like either of them can trick a good person into doing their bidding either. So I suppose it becomes a question of who's most likely to attract attention. And while Alucard is generally brutal and violent, I think he could probably maintain a low profile if he actually wanted to.

...well, there is that bit where Sauron tricks a sizable portion of the Elves into forging Rings of Power so that he can gain access to much of their power. Then there's that other bit where he gets the Numerians to declare war on the gods. Oh, then he drives Denethor mad to cripple the defense of Minas Tirith.

[thubby]

as cool as the FMA discussion is, it seems to be dominating the thread. if we could get back on track please :smallwink:


What is with all these X vs Sauron threads going around?

i don't know about the others, but I kept seeing them and always thought the opponent was underpowered. Alucard seemed like he would actually be a decent match to me.

[Rutee]

What is with all these X vs Sauron threads going around?

Sauron is basically a god. I mean, he's not only the single most powerful entity on Middle Earth, but quite literally the second-in-command to evil itself.

The only way to end Sauron is by destroying his ring, and any outside challenges assumes that he either has his ring on him, Mt. Doom is impossible to reach, or the ring isn't involved. And if the ring is on him, then lets not forget that it gives him the power to dominate creatures of a lesser innate power than him, which means "anything that isn't a god", as well as vastly increase every other power available to him.

The only times Sauron has ever failed to completely eliminate an enemy is in large-scale military battles, when his forces fled. And I believe once or twice against other god-like entities of equal scale to him.

And anyway, Alucard is mortal - he's just given long life and bizarre powers. Mortals can't win against gods, thats all there is to it

edit: Just to give you an impression - think of Gandalf, all the magic available to him, all the knowledge and skill and power. Gandalf is just a step above mortals. Now imagine what "two below Eru" can do.

Oh for God's Sake. Anime is full of people who's fights routinely alter geography. Sauron is well beneath the upper bound of anime and video game characters, power-wise, and a good deal of western fiction too. Hell, experienced WoD characters could snap him in two like a breadstick, and the odds are, /they're better manipulators too/. Sauron's maximum power output is pretty low compared to most fantasy, so while he's a superlative middle earth being, this is not terribly impressive compared to say, a superlative Disgaea being (Whom can shatter a dimension), for instance. Really, the Ring fails on people who are more powerful; That doesn't mean "IF they're a God", that means "If they're more powerful".

[EvilElitest]

Oh for God's Sake. Anime is full of people who's fights routinely alter geography. Sauron is well beneath the upper bound of anime and video game characters, power-wise, and a good deal of western fiction too. Hell, experienced WoD characters could snap him in two like a breadstick, and the odds are, /they're better manipulators too/. Sauron's maximum power output is pretty low compared to most fantasy, so while he's a superlative middle earth being, this is not terribly impressive compared to say, a superlative Disgaea being (Whom can shatter a dimension), for instance. Really, the Ring fails on people who are more powerful; That doesn't mean "IF they're a God", that means "If they're more powerful".
That is right Rutee, make un backed claims, that will win you an argument. now if we consider the fact that most anime characters lack any understanding of tatics, common sense, or even basic planning skills, this puts Sauron pretty high. Sure he can't shatter dimensions, and i don't makes claims of him being able to do so, however he is certainly one of teh most powerful beings in fantasy as he not only has power and immortally, he is also a cunning manipulator and a tatical intelligent. If you think a video game character or anime character could defeat him fine, but you can't make a general claim like that (though to be fair nether can pro sauron people make claims of his defeating anyone in any genre)

For the record, yet again, the Ring has nothing to do with power as has been shown again and again, it is a moral vice, not a power one

That being said, can Alucard even die?
from
EE

[Rutee]

That is right Rutee, make un backed claims, that will win you an argument. now if we consider the fact that most anime characters lack any understanding of tatics, common sense, or even basic planning skills, this puts Sauron pretty high. Sure he can't shatter dimensions, and i don't makes claims of him being able to do so, however he is certainly one of teh most powerful beings in fantasy as he not only has power and immortally, he is also a cunning manipulator and a tatical intelligent. If you think a video game character or anime character could defeat him fine, but you can't make a general claim like that (though to be fair nether can pro sauron people make claims of his defeating anyone in any genre)
He is not one of the most powrful beings in fantasy. Hell, people in Middle Earth had free will. He is not much of a manipulator, compared to the superlative people at it. You want superlativeness in Manipulation? I point you to the Old World of Darkness, where all human history is the result of supernatural manipulators operating behind the scenes. Everything. Pick a historical or current event, and a Mage, Werewolf, Wyrm-servant, Vampire, or some other supernatural was ultimately responsible. Sauron's /good/, sure, but he's not the best manipulator; And for the record, those guys /also/ had more power (Though only Mages didn't possess a chronic weakness that can be exploited by Sauron). And the Wyrm, from the same setting, /also/ wins for Power and Corruption (Though not manipulation, I /think/.. I can't recall how much it directly effected changes in its schemes, but I want to say that PEntex and the Black Spiral Dancers were in charge of his schemes, not the Wyrm itself). I'm sorry, but manipulation isn't an end-all tool to keep from being affected. Especially considerring that his effective range doesn't seem to be terribly high.

He's /also/ not tactically savvy, but I'll forgive him that. Tolkien was a linguist, dammit, not a tactician (AKA He only has informed tactical ability).

And EE, really, why are you protesting an 'unbacked claim' if you're immediately going to say "Well okay, that can't quite be backed by definition". Fiction is /huge/; Do you want me to list every fragging character who displays greater overt power?

[thubby]

That being said, can Alucard even die?
from
EE

in the hellsing universe, he claims nothing is truly immortal (whether this means he ages or he has a weakness is debatable, he does often comment on how bad it must be to grow old however) but so far no force has been shown to be able to cause any lasting damage to him.

[SmartAlec]

He is not one of the most powrful beings in fantasy. Hell, people in Middle Earth had free will. He is not much of a manipulator, compared to the superlative people at it.

I'd just like to point out a couple of the examples of Sauron's manipulative smarts:

- Effectively tricked several of the rulers of the nations that he saw as being foes into committing an elaborate form of suicide; the Dwarves became greedier and dumber, the Men became Ringwraiths. And he would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for those damn kids (Elves).

That was pretty good, but it pales in significance to:

- Convinced the nation that was his greatest enemy to destroy their own army, their people and their whole land by getting them to attack the Gods.

If you think about it, the only reason Sauron's still in the game by the time the Third Age rolls around is because he's just very good at this kind of thing. Sauron was in a losing position there - the World of Darkness guys have it easy in comparison, they've never had a vast, powerful nation like Numenor breathing down their necks. Sauron was defeated, he was down, he was out for the count - but he came back in just a few years in fine style, armed with nothing but wit and slick talk.

[Guts]

That wont prevent Alucard from raping the unholy crap out of him, though. He doesn't show mercy or compromise. If its one thing we can agree on is that Sauron cant beat Alucard in a straight fight.

[Rutee]

I'd just like to point out a couple of the examples of Sauron's manipulative smarts:
I already know.

On the other hand, the Technocracy is responsible for /hand-crafting the belief system of the modern world/. And only at the absolute start did it even directly expose itself. Sauron's manipulations seem to primarily be done in person; In the oWoD, the elder supernaturals and whatnot made changes with only the /barest/ of direct contact.

I repeat: Sauron is good, but he is not the end-all of corruption (That /probably/ goes to Chaos in Warhammer fiction) or Manipulation (Tentatively, World of Darkness elders, but I hear that even they're eclipsed by someone).

[Poison_Fish]

I repeat: Sauron is good, but he is not the end-all of corruption (That /probably/ goes to Chaos in Warhammer fiction) or Manipulation (Tentatively, World of Darkness elders, but I hear that even they're eclipsed by someone).

Personally, I'd throw my bets on the Ebon Dragon being the end all for manipulation.

[Selrahc]

or Manipulation (Tentatively, World of Darkness elders, but I hear that even they're eclipsed by someone).

Gods from Scion could out manipulate the WoDness guys.

The high levels of epic manipulation do some crazy things. The top level of epic manipulation gives you ultimate power in manipulation. Essentially, describe what you want to happen to your GM, that is what will happen unless another being with ultimate manipulation steps in to prevent it.

In fact most of the gods from Scion would kick Saurons ass, easily. And all his minions.

Depending on how you specialize you can have caliraudience, immortality much better than Saurons*, the ability to rip the earth assunder** , become a living incarnation of the sun, create giant tidal waves or dozens of other crazy crazy abilities that go way off the scale.

And before you die, any abilities you have raised to their ultimate levels consume you. An even more extreme version of their powers consume the area.


*Ultimate Stamina. Nothing can kill you permanently except the elder titans ripping your soul assunder. You come back within weeks from other "deaths", and are not weakened.

**Before Ultimate Strength, you gain the ability to carry the Empire State Building in one hand, and throw it over a mile away.

[JabberwockySupafly]

Alucard wins by boring Sauron to death with a severely mediocre anime/manga with a half-baked plot and an obvious fanboy "Favourite NPC Syndrome" writer.

[WNxHasoroth]

Nether of them can die, so what do they just burn/shoot each other forever? I don't know how you kill Alucard, and Sauron has the ring trick, so yeah......it is kinda absurd
from
EE

Edit
Oh and Warty Goblins, read/watch Full Metal Alchemist, it will change your view on anime forever. Or death note

A big emphatic "lolno" right there.

Monies on Alucard. He's the one who looks the coolest =P

[Cubey]

Alucard wins by boring Sauron to death with a severely mediocre anime/manga with a half-baked plot and an obvious fanboy "Favourite NPC Syndrome" writer.

You, sir, win the thread. No other posts are necessary.

(Although Hellsing isn't that bad/mediocre in my eyes.)

[thorgrim29]

Sure, more posta are always necessary..... I have no idea who'd win, but it'd be pretty fun to watch for sure. and I like Hellsing, I dont care the plot isn't that great, it has Pip Bernadotte and crazy characters who kill millions just to off one guy. Also, i like the art.

[Oslecamo]

Sudenly I have this awfull feeling that if Alucard and Sauron meeted, they would spend some days trying uselessly to kill each other and finnally end teaming up and making the most terrifying evil duo of history.

[EvilElitest]

He is not one of the most powrful beings in fantasy. Hell, people in Middle Earth had free will. He is not much of a manipulator, compared to the superlative people at it. You want superlativeness in Manipulation?

You need to draw a comparison, manipulating people with free will is harder than mindless. I mean most of the people he dominated were strong willed. Now on the topic of any fantasy, maybe not, he couldn't dominate, somebody like, well, Satan or the First Evil i think, but you can't call him a wimp



I point you to the Old World of Darkness, where all human history is the result of supernatural manipulators operating behind the scenes. Everything. Pick a historical or current event, and a Mage, Werewolf, Wyrm-servant, Vampire, or some other supernatural was ultimately responsible.
To be fair however supernatural forces have had both lots of time, and little competition, i mean if you put Sauron in World of Darkness he'd be another of the dark forces (through cell phones might cause him some trouble)


Sauron's /good/, sure, but he's not the best manipulator; And for the record, those guys /also/ had more power (Though only Mages didn't possess a chronic weakness that can be exploited by Sauron). And the Wyrm, from the same setting, /also/ wins for Power and Corruption (Though not manipulation, I /think/.. I can't recall how much it directly effected changes in its schemes, but I want to say that PEntex and the Black Spiral Dancers were in charge of his schemes, not the Wyrm itself). I'm sorry, but manipulation isn't an end-all tool to keep from being affected. Especially considerring that his effective range doesn't seem to be terribly high.
1. We can't really just claim ME< World of Darkness nor visa versa.
2. We also need examples to make such claims. the Wrym could be better than Sauron (I don't know) but we need examples



He's /also/ not tactically savvy, but I'll forgive him that. Tolkien was a linguist, dammit, not a tactician (AKA He only has informed tactical ability).

By tactically savvy do you mean Genre Savvy, drama savvy, or good at tactics. If the first, well no not really, if the second he is pretty good as he avoids the stupid things that drama villains sometimes do, if hte latter he is very good at tactics


And EE, really, why are you protesting an 'unbacked claim' if you're immediately going to say "Well okay, that can't quite be backed by definition". Fiction is /huge/; Do you want me to list every fragging character who displays greater overt power?

Name a specific person then, don't make a general statement. For example, Cthulu could defeat Sauron, because Cthulu can't lose. Sargarous and the entire burning legion could defeat Sauron (maybe not Morgoth but different story). The Imperial Empire from Star wars could defeat Sauron ect.



That wont prevent Alucard from raping the unholy crap out of him, though. He doesn't show mercy or compromise. If its one thing we can agree on is that Sauron cant beat Alucard in a straight fight.
You can't say, i don't know if Alucard could be destroyed by Sauron's powers, i really don't know if being burned by unholy fire or having your will crushed will do anything. On the flip side, Sauron can shape shift and turn into a spirit, so i don't think ether can do anything. As already said, they might make an evil team
from
EE

[Selrahc]

1. We can't really just claim ME< World of Darkness nor visa versa.

I guess you don't know much about the World of Darkness setting?

It's the kind of setting where everything is part of the subtle manipulation of some elder, who sits a hundred rungs above the common world, and plays it like a fiddle.

Everyone who isn't an obnoxiously powerful elder will fail to resist their manipulative powers.

For example, the upper levels of dominate. They can mindwipe you at will, and install false memories of astounding complexity, and they can do all this to anyone of less power than an ancient elder vampire, anywhere in the world, to large groups of people. http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Dominate_%28Vampire:_The_Masquerade%29

Presence works through sheer strength of personality. Its the thing that makes people fall hopelessly in love with the user after the merest glance, unless they are incredibly powerful. http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Presence shows the low level applications.

They also have thousands of years of experience doing nothing other than manipulating events in the world. As well as dozens of other disciplines that help them in this. Bereft of the checks and balances that other supernaturals offer they could turn every man woman and child in the world into fantical slaves practically overnight.

This is just vampires. Mages and Demons are if anything, MORE capable of crazy manipulative feats. (Hunters and Werewolves are less so, and Changelings and Wraiths are a bit too... disconnected)

The World of Darkness is a very very bleak place. You live in a world ruled by these all powerful beings, who treat it as their playground, and you try and eke out as much power as you can without pissing them off.

I would certainly say that the World of Darkness higher powered beings pwn the hell out of Sauron at manipulation, both subtle( I have given a rose to this man. That means the New York Stock Exchange will crash in two months.) and overt (I am the living incarnation of command. Everyone here will beg for the chance to serve me.)

[Rutee]

You need to draw a comparison, manipulating people with free will is harder than mindless. I mean most of the people he dominated were strong willed. Now on the topic of any fantasy, maybe not, he couldn't dominate, somebody like, well, Satan or the First Evil i think, but you can't call him a wimp
....Alright, I'll be more clear. What I meant by that, was that the people of Middle Earth /could/ rise against Sauron. The WoD people, no, not really. At best, humanity could hunt the most obvious (And generally, weakest) layer of Supernaturals. Business as usual would return, for the Supernaturals, in about 50 years, tops (Though the Mages would suffer the most in the interim; No inherent immortality, and there aren't enough uber Life Mages to sustain /all/ the middling adepts..). And that's if we said "The power of plot says humanity auto-learns about the Masquerade and seeks to unravel the power of Supernaturals". They wouldn't figure it out otherwise. And he /is/ a wimp, comparatively (Which is the only sense I bother saying that) Yeah, he dominates Middle Earth, but that's not a high octane setting. Compared to people who /are/ from those settings, well, he's not special.




To be fair however supernatural forces have had both lots of time, and little competition, i mean if you put Sauron in World of Darkness he'd be another of the dark forces (through cell phones might cause him some trouble)
You really didn't even bother to look up Wikipedia or the White Wolf Wiki on this setting, did you? They've had each other as competition; The Technocracy is actively trying to eliminate all other forms of Reality Deviants (And if Sauron suddenly showed up, would probably have a suppression team of some form on him before he could really /do/ anything. Iteration-X is pretty much a perfect counter to him, since they use robots and the like, which Sauron simply isn't capable of manipulating. Assuming the NWO's people would even be vulnerable..). Most other Supernaturals have been actively competing with the others (Especially Hunters, who feel the need to kill /all/ other forms of Supernatural, because they're basically humans with a tiny shred of divine power, and want to protect humanity), and have been doing it for a while. And I'm not sure on time.. what's the time scale in LotR? I'd clock WoD Supernaturals as having been working on humans for about 5 millenia; More for Demons, but they're acting pre-history on what can only be described as a biblical scale. Hunters for much less, also, but they're not the best manipulators anyway.

1. We can't really just claim ME< World of Darkness nor visa versa.
2. We also need examples to make such claims. the Wrym could be better than Sauron (I don't know) but we need examples
....Was "All human history" insufficient or unclear in some fashion? Because I was being quite literal. As to corruption, I can't speak in full on the Wyrm, but like Sauron, he corrupted people /who's sole duty was to battle him/ to turn to him (The Black Spiral Dancers are Werewolves; Werewolves are tasked with protection of the human world from malevolent spirits, and the Wyrm is pretty much the king of those).

And no, none of this made it a particularly interesting setting to play in, if you were wonderring..


By tactically savvy do you mean Genre Savvy, drama savvy, or good at tactics. If the first, well no not really, if the second he is pretty good as he avoids the stupid things that drama villains sometimes do, if hte latter he is very good at tactics
I mean tactically. Jesus christ, I was speaking quite clearly. Everything I've seen of him indicates that he has informed tactical ability, EG "His military plans work because the power of plot says so, not because they were good". I'll forgive him that, since Tolkien wasn't a tactician, but it's nowhere near as good as /actual/ tactical ability, like that of Zhuge Liang (A Real life person who has some pretty serious mythology behind him.) or Lucretia Merces.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

You, sir, win the thread. No other posts are necessary.

(Although Hellsing isn't that bad/mediocre in my eyes.)

No, both of you fail this thread. SUCK AND FAIL! Hellsing (while not being the best Ive ever seen) was a good show, and the action in it was awesome. The AMV's are godly.

At one point, Alucard practically had an empire, and he had god knows how many lesser vampires and powerful humans working for him, with a lot of peasants and other citizens/people who worked for him unwittingly (I.E. they served the lord of the land who was probably a servant of a servant of Alucard)

[Oslecamo]

I mean tactically. Jesus christ, I was speaking quite clearly. Everything I've seen of him indicates that he has informed tactical ability, EG "His military plans work because the power of plot says so, not because they were good". I'll forgive him that, since Tolkien wasn't a tactician, but it's nowhere near as good as /actual/ tactical ability, like that of Zhuge Liang (A Real life person who has some pretty serious mythology behind him.) or Lucretia Merces.

Actually, I think that the strategies present at the LOTR books are actually quite realistic for a medieval seting.

Could you point out any "bad" strategy employed by a suposedly smart leader in the books?

[Oslecamo]

No, both of you fail this thread. SUCK AND FAIL! Hellsing (while not being the best Ive ever seen) was a good show, and the action in it was awesome. The AMV's are godly.

At one point, Alucard practically had an empire, and he had god knows how many lesser vampires and powerful humans working for him, with a lot of peasants and other citizens/people who worked for him unwittingly (I.E. they served the lord of the land who was probably a servant of a servant of Alucard)

That didn't stop him from being defeated by a regular human and his buddies.

Alucard has very strong powers, but also certain weakness.

In the original anime, the catholic regenerating paladin manages to completely subdue his vampire powers by using special paper seals. At least he mentions they are to prevent Alucard fromusing his foul vampire magic.

Alucard then seems to stop to being able to regenerate his wounds and gets his ass quicked, being saved by Integra who arrives and tells the priest to go away. In the anime the priest doesn't attack her and obeys, leaving, and then Integra calls Alucard a weakling for not being able to defeat the priest, menancing to abandon him, and Alucard seems pretty hurt by this comentary.

Curiously, in their next ecounter, the priest doesn't try to seal Alucard's powers, and gets his arms choped off, retreating then in a mist of papers.

Brute force isn't very effective against him, but aparently knowing the right tricks can severly hinder him.

After all, Hellsing found some way to keep him in check, didn't he?

[Rutee]

Strategy? No. I'm being very specific; His strategies were good, overall. His /tactics/, as in, his military methods of carrying out those strategies, not so much. Most notable is how restricted they were to the immediate area. Orcs are an easily renewable resource, no? Why would you not send them to harry the resource and food production of your rivals on a more regular basis? Or wait to outright crush Gondor? He had what, 10 or 15 times their number, and the generally safe number to invade with is 2 to 3 times.

And I recall some specific dickery being quoted that screamed "BAd Tactics!" to me, but I can't quite find it this minute.

[Oslecamo]

Strategy? No. I'm being very specific; His strategies were good, overall. His /tactics/, as in, his military methods of carrying out those strategies, not so much. Most notable is how restricted they were to the immediate area. Orcs are an easily renewable resource, no? Why would you not send them to harry the resource and food production of your rivals on a more regular basis? Or wait to outright crush Gondor? He had what, 10 or 15 times their number, and the generally safe number to invade with is 2 to 3 times.

And I recall some specific dickery being quoted that screamed "BAd Tactics!" to me, but I can't quite find it this minute.

Rule number 3214 of warfare: NEVER EVER send all your forces against a single target.

Altough not seen in the movie, in the books it is refered that at the same time Gondor was attacked, several other human cities were attacked at the same time. So a great deal of Sauron forces were actually attacking other places than Gondor. And then he needed to make sure nobody attacked his own home in the meantime.

And Sauron made raid attacks. Problem is, the farms are behind several human fortifications. To attack the food supplies, he would first need to battle his way trought the human armies. So, it's better to hide your true numbers untill the last moment, so the enemy can't prepare acordingly.


So, when he finnally attacks, the human forces are almost completely overwhelmed, because they weren't prepared to such big numbers. It would have worked, if it wasn't for the bloody ghost army showing up at the last moment.

Now imagine what would have happened if Sauron had sent all his forces againt Gondor. Sauron would have lost ALL his forces, and then he would have been screwed.

He predicted that the enemy may have a trumph card, so he didn't risk everything in the attack. A genious move.

[warty goblin]

Strategy? No. I'm being very specific; His strategies were good, overall. His /tactics/, as in, his military methods of carrying out those strategies, not so much. Most notable is how restricted they were to the immediate area. Orcs are an easily renewable resource, no? Why would you not send them to harry the resource and food production of your rivals on a more regular basis? Or wait to outright crush Gondor? He had what, 10 or 15 times their number, and the generally safe number to invade with is 2 to 3 times.

And I recall some specific dickery being quoted that screamed "BAd Tactics!" to me, but I can't quite find it this minute.

To be fair, Sauron did harry Gondor for years before the final attack, and then when he attacked in earnest, he did so with about three armies.

About the only tactically shortsighted thing that I ever saw Sauron try was the direct assault on Minas Tirith, which isn't generally the way to really deal with fortresses- prolonged siege is far better. On the other hand, he had such an overwhelming moral advantage there from the get-go that the losses taken storming the place were probably worth destroying the main bastion of his enemies as quickly as possible, so as to better secure his supply lines to assault deeper into Gondor and Rohan. It may have been tactically somewhat weak, but it was strategically and logistically sound, both of which are, in the long term, far more important than tactics.

To be clear, I'm not saying I think Sauron would win this thread. I don't know enough about the other combatent and frankly I'm not interested in learning enough to be able to even begin to render judgement. I can still however provide information about one of the parties.

[Rutee]

Rule number 3214 of warfare: NEVER EVER send all your forces against a single target.
So send 4 times Gondor's force? This is not a sufficient rebuttal when you possess vast numerical superiority.


Altough not seen in the movie, in the books it is refered that at the same time Gondor was attacked, several other human cities were attacked at the same time. So a great deal of Sauron forces were actually attacking other places than Gondor. And then he needed to make sure nobody attacked his own home in the meantime.
...You mean he intentionally started a multiple front war. Maybe I was wrong about his strategies.


And Sauron made raid attacks. Problem is, the farms are behind several human fortifications. To attack the food supplies, he would first need to battle his way trought the human armies. So, it's better to hide your true numbers untill the last moment, so the enemy can't prepare acordingly.
Fair enough.


So, when he finnally attacks, the human forces are almost completely overwhelmed, because they weren't prepared to such big numbers. It would have worked, if it wasn't for the bloody ghost army showing up at the last moment.

Now imagine what would have happened if Sauron had sent all his forces againt Gondor. Sauron would have lost ALL his forces, and then he would have been screwed.

He predicted that the enemy may have a trumph card, so he didn't risk everything in the attack. A genious move.[/QUOTE]
No, it would have been genius if he had further split his forces into two overwhelming armies, and held one in reserve, because he had the numbers to do so. You recognize, also, that the only person who suggested he send all his forces, was you. I certainly said none of that nonsense. Come to think of it, that 10 times their number was merely the army at Gondor, wasn't it?



To be fair, Sauron did harry Gondor for years before the final attack, and then when he attacked in earnest, he did so with about three armies.
Yeah, but he only did so in Gondor, correct? I did in fact mean the other Kingdoms, in that regard, since he was already hitting Gondor. Though, I suppose with Gondor watching the only way out (Forgot about that for a minute), it's wiser to focus one's efforts there.

..Wait, if Gondor held the only way out.. were those other cities Sauron was marching on also Gondorian?

[stcfg]

Theoretically it is possible to kill Alucard by brute force. You just need to burn through the life force of all the souls he has ever consumed. The Major estimated it to be around 100 to 200 million souls. The exact number is unknown since he can telekinetically absorb blood from everything thats dies around within an area the size of London.

It would be much easier for Alucard to destroy the ring than it would be for Sauron dish out enough that much pain.

[warty goblin]

My recollection of the exact chronology of the War of the Ring is a little hazy, so this may well be wrong in some respects, but I'm pretty sure most of it is correct.

Sauron did indeed harry Gondor for years, driving them (for the most part) out of Ithilian and across the river. Trouble is, the Anduin makes a pretty nice defensive border, there's only about three points along Gondor's border where it can be crossed. Above Rauros isn't particularly great, as it requires getting an army across the Dead Marshes and through the Emen Muil, and only results in being cut off from easy retreat right between Gondor and Rohan, while still needing to get around the last of the Misty Mountains before reaching any targets of value. Farther down there's Cair Andros and Osgiliath, the first of which is very well fortified, and by the opening of the War of the Ring proper half of Osgiliath is already in Mordor's hands. The only other option is to launch a navel attack across the mouth of the Anduin, but that once again runs the risk of getting an army cut off. Hence in regards to attacking Gondor, Sauron really was better off fighting conservatively until he had the force to outright smash across the Anduin and devastate the interior of Gondor, which is exactly what he attempted to do, by attacking along three seperate vectors and breaking through the defenses on all of them (Cair Andros, Osgiliath and the Corsair Fleet).

Sauron also had a decent strategy in effect to deal with Rohan. If Gandalf hadn't gotten Theoden off of his arse, Rohan would have fallen, and even if Saruman did go all out and turn traitor (which is something I've always viewed as unlikely as actually occuring, everything that Saruman did was after all at the behest of Mordor, even if he didn't know it but the point is highly debatable), he still would have been an enemy of Gondor.

As to the rest of Middle Earth, Sauron attacked Lorien, Esgaroth and the Lonely Mountain, and I'd imagine continued to pressure Mirkwood as well, although honestly I can't remember for sure. While this is in some way engaging in a multiple front war, its not like he was attacking neutral or allied powers, all of the places he went to war with were either directly hostile or near enough as makes no difference. Hence he was not actually initiating a multi-front war, but merely taking the initiative in one he was already involved in. All of these other attacks were repulsed IIRC, but the assault on Esgaroth and the Lonely Mountain did deal significant damage to the forces in that region. My honest guess was that by launching these attacks, he didn't so much hope to destroy his enemies at Lorien etc, but merely to divert them from being able to concentrate their forces. It's not that even militarily united and acting as one that the West could actually win at this point, but they could make Sauron's life a whole lot more difficult. Hence harrassing them is the best policy, since it keeps the Elves, Dwarves, and a good portion of the non-Evil Men bottled up elsewhere, where they can be destroyed in detail later.

[Oslecamo]

So send 4 times Gondor's force? This is not a sufficient rebuttal when you possess vast numerical superiority.


...You mean he intentionally started a multiple front war. Maybe I was wrong about his strategies.


Fair enough.



He predicted that the enemy may have a trumph card, so he didn't risk everything in the attack. A genious move.
No, it would have been genius if he had further split his forces into two overwhelming armies, and held one in reserve, because he had the numbers to do so. You recognize, also, that the only person who suggested he send all his forces, was you. I certainly said none of that nonsense. Come to think of it, that 10 times their number was merely the army at Gondor, wasn't it?


Yeah, but he only did so in Gondor, correct? I did in fact mean the other Kingdoms, in that regard, since he was already hitting Gondor. Though, I suppose with Gondor watching the only way out (Forgot about that for a minute), it's wiser to focus one's efforts there.

..Wait, if Gondor held the only way out.. were those other cities Sauron was marching on also Gondorian?

Sauron actually had two big armies in reserve to deliver the final blow in case the enemy managed to resist his first main army. Those dire elephants and the corsairs

Why he didn't use them? Ah, yes, ghost army. The ghost army pretty much pwned BOTH his reserve armies.

Also there's that little but important moment where the supreme darklord in direct comand is killed by a chick and a midget with a +5 holy ghost touch dagger of undead bane.

Yeah, that must have really sucked for Sauron. His reserve force was crushed by the enemy suprise force and his main comander was killed by a random gal who wasn't even suposed to be there and a creatue who didn't even knew how to fight but hapened to have an uber sword specially designed to kill evil creatures.

The other enemies he attacked were all his direct enemies who very probably would have come to Gondor's aid if it was attacked, so it can be said that he was seeking to keep the enemy divided and not necessarly starting a multi front war. Being surrounded is never fun.

[EvilElitest]

....Alright, I'll be more clear. What I meant by that, was that the people of Middle Earth /could/ rise against Sauron. The WoD people, no, not really. At best, humanity could hunt the most obvious (And generally, weakest) layer of Supernaturals. Business as usual would return, for the Supernaturals, in about 50 years, tops (Though the Mages would suffer the most in the interim; No inherent immortality, and there aren't enough uber Life Mages to sustain /all/ the middling adepts..). And that's if we said "The power of plot says humanity auto-learns about the Masquerade and seeks to unravel the power of Supernaturals". They wouldn't figure it out otherwise. And he /is/ a wimp, comparatively (Which is the only sense I bother saying that) Yeah, he dominates Middle Earth, but that's not a high octane setting. Compared to people who /are/ from those settings, well, he's not special.

1. I'm going to go out on a limb here and expose my total ignorance here, but isn't octane a world used in reference to gas measurement?
2. Presuming you mean power, i was referring to normal humans, who are the ones being deceived? Are they any more powerful?
3. We've only seen Sauron in that situation once (and he did great), integration corruption is far different than external corruption. We can't say he couldn't do that, he just didn't because he was busy using his massive army. Now could he? Can't say, i imagine the WOD dudes have a lot going for them. most likely they have special powers (modify memory, invisibility, hidden realms nobody can go to, am i close) that help, but in terms of raw corruption we need specifics.




You really didn't even bother to look up Wikipedia or the White Wolf Wiki on this setting, did you? They've had each other as competition; The Technocracy is actively trying to eliminate all other forms of Reality Deviants (And if Sauron suddenly showed up, would probably have a suppression team of some form on him before he could really /do/ anything. Iteration-X is pretty much a perfect counter to him, since they use robots and the like, which Sauron simply isn't capable of manipulating. Assuming the NWO's people would even be vulnerable..). Most other Supernaturals have been actively competing with the others (Especially Hunters, who feel the need to kill /all/ other forms of Supernatural, because they're basically humans with a tiny shred of divine power, and want to protect humanity), and have been doing it for a while. And I'm not sure on time.. what's the time scale in LotR? I'd clock WoD Supernaturals as having been working on humans for about 5 millenia; More for Demons, but they're acting pre-history on what can only be described as a biblical scale. Hunters for much less, also, but they're not the best manipulators anyway.
1. LOTRS is generally viking times, with some inconsistencies.
2. No i was talking about people resisting the domination of the human race, not other rivals competing with dominating the human race. Personally, i think if Sauron entered WoD, he would be effectively countered by cell phones before any of these groups get to him ("Ah, teh voices, they come from the metal thing")




....Was "All human history" insufficient or unclear in some fashion? Because I was being quite literal. As to corruption, I can't speak in full on the Wyrm, but like Sauron, he corrupted people /who's sole duty was to battle him/ to turn to him (The Black Spiral Dancers are Werewolves; Werewolves are tasked with protection of the human world from malevolent spirits, and the Wyrm is pretty much the king of those).

1. That explains the creation of Sealand
2. Was this domination of human history one organized force/person or a lot of different dudes all working at the same time?

And no, none of this made it a particularly interesting setting to play in, if you were wonderring..

Yeah, i can imagine it being kinda depressing, wasn't there some sort of WoD recon at some point?



I mean tactically. Jesus christ, I was speaking quite clearly. Everything I've seen of him indicates that he has informed tactical ability, EG "His military plans work because the power of plot says so, not because they were good". I'll forgive him that, since Tolkien wasn't a tactician, but it's nowhere near as good as /actual/ tactical ability, like that of Zhuge Liang (A Real life person who has some pretty serious mythology behind him.) or Lucretia Merces.
1. Ignoring the cussing, what tactical blunders have you thought of
2. He is quite tactically minded, look at the entire third age war. He overestimated Gandalf's intelligence however


Strategy? No. I'm being very specific; His strategies were good, overall. His /tactics/, as in, his military methods of carrying out those strategies, not so much. Most notable is how restricted they were to the immediate area. Orcs are an easily renewable resource, no? Why would you not send them to harry the resource and food production of your rivals on a more regular basis? Or wait to outright crush Gondor? He had what, 10 or 15 times their number, and the generally safe number to invade with is 2 to 3 times.
1. In the book he has more than one base, the misty mountains, the eastern mountains, Rhun, Harad, Umber, remains of Agmar, Dol Guldor/Mirkwood, Mt. Gundibad, Grey Mountains, Withered Heath. This was more like WWII than anything else. He did send his orcs to destroy Gondor's resources, see conquest of Illilen and Gondor colonies. He destroyed most of there allied/vassal states, he prevented an alliance between their other allies in the north, and he destoryed most of their miltary power by the time of the siege of the White City. Remember, his attack on Gondor in the book was only a test attack, that was the forefront of his Vanguard per say, he hoped to cripple his foes so that he could build up a large enough force so that he could take over the world without the threat of losing. It is also worth noting the ring
2. Even if he concentrated all of his forces together, what if he lost or was attacked somewhere else? A good general has many armies to manage and a reserve force.
3. Tolkien was a historian of English warfare as well


About the only tactically shortsighted thing that I ever saw Sauron try was the direct assault on Minas Tirith, which isn't generally the way to really deal with fortresses- prolonged siege is far better.
He had a time issue, he was afraid of Aragorn/Gandalf claiming the ring remember?


So send 4 times Gondor's force? This is not a sufficient rebuttal when you possess vast numerical superiority.
When you are fighting on multiple front yeah. Also, why bother? Sauron knew that his enemies has not intellegent way of defeating them, why take the losses of a huge overblow battle when you could bleed them to death.



..You mean he intentionally started a multiple front war. Maybe I was wrong about his strategies.
When you have teh resources to back that up, yeah. divide and conquer.


No, it would have been genius if he had further split his forces into two overwhelming armies, and held one in reserve, because he had the numbers to do so. You recognize, also, that the only person who suggested he send all his forces, was you. I certainly said none of that nonsense. Come to think of it, that 10 times their number was merely the army at Gondor, wasn't it?
In the books he did, there were more than one Deus Ex Machina

1) Aragorn's move with the seeing stone forces him to attack early
2) Gandalf at teh White City
3) Denother's madness not going as planed
4) the Riders showing up
5) the riders totally avoiding the trap he set for them
6) The Woses
7) The shanking of teh WK
8) The grey company
9) the paths of the dead short cut
10) the army of the dead
11) the black fleet being taken and used to attack his rear
12) The people of the lesser gondor cities joining them on the ships
13) the magic wind that destroyed his anti sun cloud.
And even then he has another army to give them a costly fight, and even then three armies escaped


Yeah, but he only did so in Gondor, correct? I did in fact mean the other Kingdoms, in that regard, since he was already hitting Gondor. Though, I suppose with Gondor watching the only way out (Forgot about that for a minute), it's wiser to focus one's efforts there.
No he destroyed Anor, he retook Moria, he destroyed most of the Mirkwood Kingdom, he hassled and greatly threatened all of teh elven nations (other than the grey heavens, allow you enemies a chance to flee), dominated Rohan both from within and from without using his puppet who also took over the shire, bleed out the Rangers of the North, infiltrated the Bree cities, attacked Dale and the Lonely Mountain and dominated the lands of the lesser men.


Also even when he lost the battle, he had a massive reserve force. It wasn't a major loss to him, he was fine really from a numbers standpoint, just try again
from
EE

[Rutee]

1. I'm going to go out on a limb here and expose my total ignorance here, but isn't octane a world used in reference to gas measurement?
2. Presuming you mean power, i was referring to normal humans, who are the ones being deceived? Are they any more powerful?
3. We've only seen Sauron in that situation once (and he did great), integration corruption is far different than external corruption. We can't say he couldn't do that, he just didn't because he was busy using his massive army. Now could he? Can't say, i imagine the WOD dudes have a lot going for them. most likely they have special powers (modify memory, invisibility, hidden realms nobody can go to, am i close) that help, but in terms of raw corruption we need specifics.
1. Well, asking is better then misinterpreting. In this case, I was speaking colloquially, as in "High power".
2. Normal humans and supernaturals, many of whom specialize in this kind of thing. The Antediluvian vampires control, /indirectly/ pretty much every vampire.. the reason why we can say they're such good manipulators, is that most vampires aren't even aware the Antediluvians are /alive/, much less in charge.
3. I didn't say that non-Wyrm Supernaturals were good at corruption; I specified Manipulation. And the simple fact is that Sauron isn't as good a manipulator. "We don't know he couldn't remain behind the scenes and control the /entire world/ through a long, complicated web of intrigue"? In the same sense we dont' know some idiot shounen protagonist can't do that, perhaps; If he were capable of that level of manipulation, he would have done so. Your argument is similar to arguing that Sauron can build nukes and had an "army of sharks with freaking lasers attached to their head", based on the fact that we have no evidence to the contrary.

Controlling your enemies' nations indirectly is more effective then conquering them with armies. I do not think he's an idiot; If he could do it, he probably would have, unless he had some sort of point to prove.


1. LOTRS is generally viking times, with some inconsistencies.
2. No i was talking about people resisting the domination of the human race, not other rivals competing with dominating the human race. Personally, i think if Sauron entered WoD, he would be effectively countered by cell phones before any of these groups get to him ("Ah, teh voices, they come from the metal thing")
1. ...I thought there was a timescale in excess of several millenia there too? I'm not asking about their Age in terms of tech, I'm asking about how many years pass.
2. That'd be Hunters, predominantly, as their raison d'etre is to protect humanity from the depredations of those evils lurking in the corner. Some Tradition Mages do it too, some are also out to manipulate the Masses, some just don't care. The trick is, most counter-manipulation is also manipulation, so it's tough to gauge..



1. That explains the creation of Sealand
2. Was this domination of human history one organized force/person or a lot of different dudes all working at the same time?
1. ...?
2. Depends on which book you're looking at, but mostly, it was one group. Which group that was depended on which game (Technically speaking, each Supernatural type is a different game, y'see, and there's not /supposed/ to be much overlap in a PC group), but generally, a relatively small group holds the reins over humanity. The Technocracy of Mage, in particular, holds near-complete control over humanity's major institutions, and is a (relatively) unified faction, though the Traditions do manage to have some small victories. In the overall metaplot, however, things are less clear cut, though it's generally assumed (As far as I know) that either the Technocracy runs /most/ of humanity's biggest institutions.. or Vampires sekritly manipulate them and through them, Vampires run everything. Not sure which..

Within Vampire, not nearly so clear at all though. I'd say that it's about 4 groups or so in total (Granted that the Clans just weren't as unified as the Technocracy, within the Sabbat or Camarilla)?


Yeah, i can imagine it being kinda depressing, wasn't there some sort of WoD recon at some point?
It was an Edition change. In the New World of Darkness, there's no overarching metaplot, and on the whole, things are localized significantly more. There are globe-spanning organizations still, but they're more like philosophies, on the global level; They only exert power on the local. So the Adamantine Arrow may be the predominant Mage Order in, say, Boston and New York, but the two chapters dont' communicate with each other extensively, and don't coordinate with other Adamantine Arrow chapters to Try Take Over the World. The tone hasn't changed, and if you want it, there's still plenty of room for byzantine politics, but there's much less room to turn the PCs into puppets that dance (unknowingly) to a particular Elder _____'s tune. Also it's much easier, mercifully, to have multiple types of supernaturals in the same party, since they were standardized.


Stuff that I don't actually need to dissect
Rohan would fall under strategy again, but if he could send large enough armies to really, truly divert the troops of the other nations, then he seems to have done it wrong, frankly. It seems like he should have cut down on the size of most of the legions somewhat and sent one or two with intent to fully conquer. It just doesn't jive that he can hit those points in any meaningful sense but not actually conquer. He wouldn't even have to hold it, really; Scorched earth is a wonderful policy for someone who doesn't care about said earth.


Stuff that I actually don't need to dissect line by line because it's constructed to stand on its own
Hm. If this force was that enormous, how did he not detect it at /all/? That's not strictly a tactical concern, granted, but several thousand ghosts seems like something you'd want to find first, and that /should/ be found first if he were nearly as powerful as his staunchest supporters say.

Someone describe the Alliance of Men and Elves that killed him, and their military situation. I get a feeling that's it.

[Selrahc]

3. We've only seen Sauron in that situation once (and he did great), integration corruption is far different than external corruption. We can't say he couldn't do that, he just didn't because he was busy using his massive army. Now could he? Can't say, i imagine the WOD dudes have a lot going for them. most likely they have special powers (modify memory, invisibility, hidden realms nobody can go to, am i close) that help, but in terms of raw corruption we need specifics.

And you couldn't be bothered to read my post which gave you a whole bunch of specifics?

A vampire can warp someone to their wills. Mind and body twisted to their whims.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Dominate_%28Vampire:_The_Masquerade%29
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Vicissitude
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Dementation

They can cause someone to be completely overawed by their presence, to the tune that they are unable even to conceive of acting against the vampire. http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Presence

And they are incredibly skilled at using this stuff. As you'd expect with several thousand years of practice. The only thing that keeps them in check is the presence of equally powerful rivals working against their schemes.

Mages and Demons are even better.

[Oslecamo]

And you couldn't be bothered to read my post which gave you a whole bunch of specifics?

A vampire can warp someone to their wills. Mind and body twisted to their whims.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Dominate_%28Vampire:_The_Masquerade%29
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Vicissitude
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Dementation

They can cause someone to be completely overawed by their presence, to the tune that they are unable even to conceive of acting against the vampire. http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Presence

And they are incredibly skilled at using this stuff. As you'd expect with several thousand years of practice. The only thing that keeps them in check is the presence of equally powerful rivals working against their schemes.

Mages and Demons are even better.

Alucard was born around century XIV. And for all we know he's the first vampire in history.

So "thousands of years" to train is a little overrrated.

Also Alucard is special, because Hellsing himself worked to increase its powers once he had him under control.

He doesn't care he has his head cut off, and can go around in the light of day whitout problem for all we esee.

Hellsing's vampires also reflect themselves in the mirror.

Thus you can't use other vampire data to analyze Alucard's powers. He's a completely diferent breed of vampire. And this is Sauron vs Alucard after all.

[Oslecamo]

Hm. If this force was that enormous, how did he not detect it at /all/? That's not strictly a tactical concern, granted, but several thousand ghosts seems like something you'd want to find first, and that /should/ be found first if he were nearly as powerful as his staunchest supporters say.

Someone describe the Alliance of Men and Elves that killed him, and their military situation. I get a feeling that's it.

Ok, I'll try as best as possible the whole battle that goes around in the 3rd book, wich is actually somewhat diferent from the movie,a dn I've been mixing some facts.

1-Sauron tries to use his puppet, Sauruman, to destroy Rowan. Meanwhile he uses his orcs to raid the river citadel to keep Gondor distracted. He's also rallying his troops and allies from all over middle earth to his fortress to prepare his attack to form the ultimate army.

2-Helm's deep, Ent's attack, yada yada Sauruman gets his ass quicked. But he doesn't report this fact to Sauron trough the orb.

3-One of the hobbits looks in the orb. This leads to Sauron thinking Sauruman has won and captured the hobbits so he sends the Nazgulls to retrieve the valuable prisioner.

4-Gandalf runs to Gondor as fast as he can to warn the buttler and prepare the defense. Meanwhile Rowan fores are trying to rebuild themselves.

5-Sauron finds out that Sauruman has failed when the Nazgulls arrive at Isengard. Gandalf then uses somemkind of trick with the orb to show Sauron that the hobbit who he had seen sooner is in Gondor, so Sauron thinks the ring is in Minas tirith.

6-Sauron still hasn't managed to fully rally his troops so he sends whatever it's ready to march to an attack as fast as possible to Gondor. He sends several other forces to the surrounding cities to cut off any chances of the ring escaping. He sends orders to the dire elephant forces and the river corsair to join the battle as soon as possible, but they'll be late.

7-Gondor calls for aid of the surrounding cities but each one of them wants to defend itself so Gondor only receives a small amount of reinforcments. Rowan is also called for help, but it will need time to fully rally the knights and arrive at Gondor. Also the white ciy king ihas is moral real low due to observing Sauron massive forces trough his own orb.

8-Aragorn, following an advice from Gandalf, goes trough the mountaints wheresuposedly the ghost army is.

9- Sauron's attack army has arrived at Gondor after quickly overruning the city defense. He could have laid a siege, but he thinks the ring is inside the city and he wants it as soon as possible. Nazgulls fly overhead and completely cripple the city defender's morals. Archers don't get in the walls to shoot, nobody mans the human catapults, and the evil forces approach with ease and using siege engines and throw flammable projectiles to further lowere moral. Gandalf tries to rally the human troops to fight but he's just one man. Still, he manages to hold the main entrance by himself after the gates are destroyed, stoping the witch king himself from entering, and dispelling his fear aura.

10-Rowan knights approach Gondor, but the road is blocked by yet another evil army strong enough to defeat them. Thankfully a tribe of "wild men" appears and they show them a secret passage around the evil army that allows Rowan to avoid that fight and go directly into Gondor.

11-Meanwhile Aragorn has obtained his ghost army. He arrives at a big river town wich is being overrun by the corsairs wich were heading Gondor. The ghost army scares the crap out of them and makes them actually run in the river and drown themselves(reall, this is what happens in the book, the ghosts don't fight at all). Aragorn dismisses ghost army, takes the boats and uses his charisma to convince the river city troops to go with him to Gondor.

12-Rowan knights charge in the orcs at Gondor and despite awfully outnumberd they strike and kill the enemy leaders. Each leader that goes down makes the troops under his comand scatter and run away.

13-Witch king appears and cripples Rowan king, but the other woman who was disguised, trying to protect him, and helped by the hobbit with the magical dagger, end up killing him. This and the death of the king makes the Rowan knights go berseker style and start killing everything in the way.

14-Dire elephants arrive and rowan knights try to face them but things aren't very pretty.

15-Despair fills the air when the corsair ships are sighted. Retreat into the city is called but the knigths insist on fighting on the open ground to the death.

16-Aragorn disembarks with the other good troops an catches the evil forces by suprise(who tought they were the corsairs), catching them unprepared.

17-Most of the evil leaders by now are dead, and the evil forces are totally unorganized. Despite still having much bigger numbers, they end up scattering and being easily defeated by the much more organized forces of the "good side".

So, Sauron didn't send an total overkill force probably because he didn't have time to rally it. He tought the ring was at Gondor, and he wanted to get it as soon as possible before someone managed to turn its power against him, so he sent whatever he could.

After all, organizing very large forces isn't that easy, since you also need to worry about supply lines and stuff.

[Rutee]

Alucard was born around century XIV. And for all we know he's the first vampire in history.

So "thousands of years" to train is a little overrrated.

Also Alucard is special, because Hellsing himself worked to increase its powers once he had him under control.

He doesn't care he has his head cut off, and can go around in the light of day whitout problem for all we esee.

Hellsing's vampires also reflect themselves in the mirror.

Thus you can't use other vampire data to analyze Alucard's powers. He's a completely diferent breed of vampire. And this is Sauron vs Alucard after all.

FYI: He's speaking on WoD Vampires, not directly relating this back to Alucard. I started a tangent after yet another claim that Sauron is the King of Manipulation, which I'm quite thoroughly putting to rest. Selrahc was also correct on Gods in Scion being even more skilled then these guys, having poked through that book some now.


More stuff
Not the question I asked, but good /god/. He's had /decades/ to prepare his overwhelming force. What the hell?

[Oslecamo]

Well, unlike shown in the movie, orcs don't pop up the ground. Orcs need to breed, and then they need time to grow, and then they need to be trained and everything else.

The first time Sauron is heard after losing the ring is around "the Hoobit" book.
We don't know what exactly happens, but we know that he somehow managed to start comanding troops again despite being bodyless. He started rebuilding his forces in the dark forest, but was spoted and driven back to Mordor with severe casualities by the wizard council.

Then, back in his original land, and in the next decades between Bilbo geting the ring, Sauron does:

1-Multiply his orcs. Dead orcs can't breed so he keeps atacks to a minimum to increase orc population growth.

2-Sauron forges several alliances with eastern countries and enslaves some others. These countries supply him with food and other goods, since the land of mordor isn't very fertile, and orcs are hungry.

3-He rebuilds his fortress and makes that badass indestructible tower to make sure nobody can spoil his preparations. He also mounts several forges and armories to equip his army.

4-He scouts and corrupts carefully the human lands around him. He doesn't want any nasty suprises or alliances this time.

5-Now that he has big scores of orcs he needs to turn those rabbles into a war machine. He intesively trains his troops, prepares leaders and teaches the smartest orcs to build and use siege weaponry.

All of this took him a lot of time. You have to take in acount that he needed to rebuild his forces from almost zero after "The Hobbit" book.

Going from an handfull of servants to an army big enough to crush middle earth in just some decades is an astouningly tactical feat in my opinion

[Rutee]

Going from an handfull of servants to an army big enough to crush middle earth in just some decades is an astouningly tactical feat in my opinion
TACTICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! You're thinking Logistics. Being a logistical genius is also impressive, but it is /not the same thing/. Further nitpick, point the first is a point /against tactical mastery/, if he got that badly hammered when in direct command of his legions.

Honestly, I suppose the only relevant canon one can bring up for Tactics, in a strict sense, is going to be when the Alliance that killed him (The one with Gil Galad, etc) pushed his forces back to his stronghold. Anything else is going to be primarily strategic in nature (Remember, Good Tactics win the battle; Good Strategy wins the war).

And /on/ that note, he was outmaneuvered by the Men and Elves that time, wasn't he?




2-Sauron forges several alliances with eastern countries and enslaves some others. These countries supply him with food and other goods, since the land of mordor isn't very fertile, and orcs are hungry.
I'm going to need some canon now. Nothing personal, it's just that the last time Orcish supply lines got brought up in a meaningful sense, Mordor had really fertile farmland really close to the center. Now it doesn't? Doubleyuu Tee Eff, dood.

Come to think of it, your post also directly contradicted WG's claim that the Ghost Army destroyed the main army and 2 reserve armies. Which is pretty much the best argument to just quit caring about Sauron, because I can't be botherred to read those awful books, and I can't seem to get the straight talk out of most of his supporters.

[EvilElitest]

1. Well, asking is better then misinterpreting. In this case, I was speaking colloquially, as in "High power".
2. Normal humans and supernaturals, many of whom specialize in this kind of thing. The Antediluvian vampires control, /indirectly/ pretty much every vampire.. the reason why we can say they're such good manipulators, is that most vampires aren't even aware the Antediluvians are /alive/, much less in charge.
3. I didn't say that non-Wyrm Supernaturals were good at corruption; I specified Manipulation. And the simple fact is that Sauron isn't as good a manipulator. "We don't know he couldn't remain behind the scenes and control the /entire world/ through a long, complicated web of intrigue"? In the same sense we dont' know some idiot shounen protagonist can't do that, perhaps; If he were capable of that level of manipulation, he would have done so. Your argument is similar to arguing that Sauron can build nukes and had an "army of sharks with freaking lasers attached to their head", based on the fact that we have no evidence to the contrary.

1. What?
2. Wait, so normal dark creatures dominate humans, and these dudes dominate normal dark creatures?
3. Except Manipulation, unlike Nukes doesn't need to be done. From what i gather (and correct me if i'm wrong) these Dark creature live in human society and dominate it, but are under constant threat of A) their domination slipping B) Other Dark Creatures taking it away from them
Sauron has only once been in that situation of being inside other person's culture. Now i ask you, why would he want to dominate the world in that manner when he could dominate them the old fashioned way through military power and internal corruption rather than maintaining a Masquerade. Is he a better corrupter? Can't say. Could he dominate a culture in his world in a similar way? Yeah. Could he dominate the real world in such a way. No, because he would be out of his element. However he might be able to pull it off if he was around during the start of the culture, i'd need more information on their methods. Sauron could be weaker (not a wimp but weaker) however we can't say he would have uses said methods if he could because he didn't have to. real question is, would these dark powers be better of ruling externally or internally.


Controlling your enemies' nations indirectly is more effective then conquering them with armies. I do not think he's an idiot; If he could do it, he probably would have, unless he had some sort of point to prove.

Meh, depends on their goal. Sauron wants a total lawful world with him (or Morgoth) as dictator. The WOD guys might be better big pictures dudes through, i assume they profit from real world wars/trade?


1. ...I thought there was a timescale in excess of several millenia there too? I'm not asking about their Age in terms of tech, I'm asking about how many years pass.
2. That'd be Hunters, predominantly, as their raison d'etre is to protect humanity from the depredations of those evils lurking in the corner. Some Tradition Mages do it too, some are also out to manipulate the Masses, some just don't care. The trick is, most counter-manipulation is also manipulation, so it's tough to gauge..

1. Oh sorry, just to check time scale of Sauron's Third Age domination, existence, total domination of corruption?
2. So these dominating groups still have to contend with all of these rivals?

1. ...?
2. Depends on which book you're looking at, but mostly, it was one group. Which group that was depended on which game (Technically speaking, each Supernatural type is a different game, y'see, and there's not /supposed/ to be much overlap in a PC group), but generally, a relatively small group holds the reins over humanity. The Technocracy of Mage, in particular, holds near-complete control over humanity's major institutions, and is a (relatively) unified faction, though the Traditions do manage to have some small victories. In the overall metaplot, however, things are less clear cut, though it's generally assumed (As far as I know) that either the Technocracy runs /most/ of humanity's biggest institutions.. or Vampires sekritly manipulate them and through them, Vampires run everything. Not sure which..
1. Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand)
2. So the werewolves, demons, changlings, mages, vampires and other supernatural monsters work together to control humanity within these groups or do these groups dominate the dark creatures who in trun dominate humanity

Within Vampire, not nearly so clear at all though. I'd say that it's about 4 groups or so in total (Granted that the Clans just weren't as unified as the Technocracy, within the Sabbat or Camarilla)?
sounds confusing


It was an Edition change. In the New World of Darkness, there's no overarching metaplot, and on the whole, things are localized significantly more. There are globe-spanning organizations still, but they're more like philosophies, on the global level; They only exert power on the local. So the Adamantine Arrow may be the predominant Mage Order in, say, Boston and New York, but the two chapters dont' communicate with each other extensively, and don't coordinate with other Adamantine Arrow chapters to Try Take Over the World. The tone hasn't changed, and if you want it, there's still plenty of room for byzantine politics, but there's much less room to turn the PCs into puppets that dance (unknowingly) to a particular Elder _____'s tune. Also it's much easier, mercifully, to have multiple types of supernaturals in the same party, since they were standardized.
Interesting, just one question, wouldn't the PCs always be puppets if this organization (s) are so powerful?


Rohan would fall under strategy again, but if he could send large enough armies to really, truly divert the troops of the other nations, then he seems to have done it wrong, frankly. It seems like he should have cut down on the size of most of the legions somewhat and sent one or two with intent to fully conquer. It just doesn't jive that he can hit those points in any meaningful sense but not actually conquer. He wouldn't even have to hold it, really; Scorched earth is a wonderful policy for someone who doesn't care about said earth.
I would like to point out that the force he did send in the books wasn't a real army, it was the forfront of a vanguard, a testing blow per say, so he kinda did do that


Hm. If this force was that enormous, how did he not detect it at /all/? That's not strictly a tactical concern, granted, but several thousand ghosts seems like something you'd want to find first, and that /should/ be found first if he were nearly as powerful as his staunchest supporters say.

He had know way of knowing of the ghosts until they showed up, nobody other than Elrond and Aragorn knew the details of the ghosts.

And you couldn't be bothered to read my post which gave you a whole bunch of specifics?
no sorry i didn't see it
as this computer can get links opened, i'll check that later today



1-Sauron tries to use his puppet, Sauruman, to destroy Rowan.
what did Rowan ever do to Sauron?:smallwink:



5-Sauron finds out that Sauruman has failed when the Nazgulls arrive at Isengard. Gandalf then uses somemkind of trick with the orb to show Sauron that the hobbit who he had seen sooner is in Gondor, so Sauron thinks the ring is in Minas tirith.
Aragorn Claims the Seeing Stone, making Sauron think that Gandalf is using the last King in some special plan



Not the question I asked, but good /god/. He's had /decades/ to prepare his overwhelming force. What the hell?
And why take the risk of making a mistake when you can play it slow. Time is in Sauron's favor, he just needs to bleed his enemies dry. Remember, he had a much much larger force back home, and could get more if he wanted to


Well, unlike shown in the movie, orcs don't pop up the ground. Orcs need to breed, and then they need time to grow, and then they need to be trained and everything else.
it does seem to take six months to get 10,000 however


2-Sauron forges several alliances with eastern countries and enslaves some others. These countries supply him with food and other goods, since the land of mordor isn't very fertile, and orcs are hungry.
The southern part of Mordor (Nhun) is very fertile because of the ashes of Mt. Doom


Honestly, I suppose the only relevant canon one can bring up for Tactics, in a strict sense, is going to be when the Alliance that killed him (The one with Gil Galad, etc) pushed his forces back to his stronghold. Anything else is going to be primarily strategic in nature (Remember, Good Tactics win the battle; Good Strategy wins the war).
To be fair, he wasn't at full military power and was against hte greatest army of the age, who organized faster than he expected.


and /on/ that note, he was outmaneuvered by the Men and Elves that time, wasn't he?
Well the Armies of Nudemor joined the elves at a critical moment after he destroyed the two elven kingdoms and put the others to siege



Come to think of it, your post also directly contradicted WG's claim that the Ghost Army destroyed the main army and 2 reserve armies. Which is pretty much the best argument to just quit caring about Sauron, because I can't be botherred to read those awful books, and I can't seem to get the straight talk out of most of his supporters.
1. The Ghost army destroyed
2. Reading the books does help produce evidence and understanding of the material i would like to point out, if you want a fair option you need to read the material (hence why all my options of WoD are based off of the things shown to me)
3. Um, i don't think he contradicted WG's statement, Sauron didn't send the entire force there
4. The poster in question said that he hadn't read the books for a while and is going by memory.
5. What info do you want



TACTICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! You're thinking Logistics. Being a logistical genius is also impressive, but it is /not the same thing/. Further nitpick, point the first is a point /against tactical mastery/, if he got that badly hammered when in direct command of his legions.
1. Napoleon would disagree, as would General Lee
2. What statical mistakes are so glaring?
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

1. LOTRS is generally viking times, with some inconsistencies.

Well... Saying "viking times" isn't really accurate either. It's a "heroic golden age" (or the tail end of one) similar to what exists in other "real" mythologies.


3. Tolkien was a historian of English warfare as well

No he wasn't.

He was so uninterested in warfare that he spent his time while in the army making up languages and stories to go along with them. While I'm sure he wasn't ignorant of history, it was far removed from his academic field. I'm sure he spent some time researching, and he probably went to colleagues for correction, but that hardly makes him a "historian".


1. ...I thought there was a timescale in excess of several millenia there too? I'm not asking about their Age in terms of tech, I'm asking about how many years pass.

Sauron appears as Annatar (the Giver of Gifts) and gets in good with the elves of Eregion in about SA 1200, they start making Rings in about 1500, and he makes the One in around 1600. Full-out war begins 1693 and the elves are pinned down in Lindon and Rivendell by 1699. Numenor comes to help and they manage to fight Sauron's forces back within the next few years. Sauron is specifically said to have been at his height of power as a "sorcerer" at this point, but lacking somewhat militarily. He managed to fool the elves (in Eregion at least, Gil-galad and Elrond didn't trust him, even if they weren't openly hostile) pretty much immediately. Took about 300 years to convince them that the Rings were a good idea and actually train them up to be able to make them.

Numenor (after becoming estranged from the elves somewhat already) takes Sauron "captive" in 3261 and is brought to Numenor the following year. Three years after that, he's the king's advisor. By 3300, they're actively performing human sacrifice. The attack on the Valar happens in 3319. So, he managed to go from "hated enemy and prisoner" to "hey, let's fight the gods" in under 60 years.

That's time taken for specific manipulation jobs. By LotR time, he's been head honcho for team evil for the 3341 years of the Second Age and a bit over 3000 years for the Third and is more or less in control of the whole world except for the mapped portion of the north-west coastal areas. He was out of commission for a good chunk of the Third Age (as a physical presence, nothing stopping him from giving orders while in "spirit form" or whatever) and was somewhat reformed and goody-goody for a short time at the beginning of the Second, but still several thousand years. I hope that answered your question on time scales Rutee. I wasn't quite sure what you were going for there.


Hm. If this force was that enormous, how did he not detect it at /all/? That's not strictly a tactical concern, granted, but several thousand ghosts seems like something you'd want to find first, and that /should/ be found first if he were nearly as powerful as his staunchest supporters say.

I think it's been said since then, but the ghosts didn't actually do any fighting. They mostly acted as a "black breath" for the good guys as they scared the crap out of the Corsairs of Umbar which then allowed the group with Aragorn (a contingent of Rangers from the north and Elrond's sons) along with the remaining garrisons from the coastal cities to take them out and claim their ships. The films seriously reduce the number of men available to the good guys throughout the trilogy. The forces gathered at Minas Tirith is severely limited due to these outlying areas not sending many men due to impending threats on their own homes. The ghosts and the surprise arrival of the Northern Dunedain tip the scales for a quick victory there, which frees all of them to come to the aid of Minas Tirith.


Someone describe the Alliance of Men and Elves that killed him, and their military situation. I get a feeling that's it.

General info on military activities involving Sauron.

War of the Elves and Sauron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Elves_and_Sauron):
Casus Belli - Sauron forges the One Ring which reveals him as an enemy. He then goes to war to retrieve the other Rings as the elves were smart enough to simply not use them.
Combatants - Sauron and his forces (not really specified the makeup, but I'd say that with the exception of the Nazgul and the Uruk/Olog-hai his troops are probably similar for all engagements) against the remaining Noldor/Sindar kingdoms in Lindon (Gil-galad and Cirdan), Imladris (Elrond), and Eregion (Celebrimbor) along with Lothlorien and even the help of the Moria dwarves.
Summary - Sauron achieved several early victories, despite it being stated that he was not at top-form from a military point of view. Eregion was effectively destroyed and the few survivors (along with folk from Lothlorien) either fled or hid in Moria. Elrond managed to set up a haven in what would become Rivendell (Imladris) but the elves were effectively pinned down there and in Gil-galad's kingdom at Lindon. Eventually, aid came from Numenor and Sauron's forces were pushed back beyond the Anduin. Things pretty much ended there until...

The War of the Last Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Last_Alliance):
C.B. - Sauron managed to talk the Numenoreans into, basically, committing suicide. The survivors team up with the elves remaining after the last war to take him out.
Combatants - Sauron's forces as above, but now with Nazgul against the Survivors from Numenor (who have had a little over 100 years to prepare), the Elves remaining in Lindon, Lothlorien, and Mirkwood (Imladris sends people too, but it's just Elrond's household and environs, not a kingdom), and, once again, the Dwarves of Moria.
Summary - Both sides are pretty nerfed here. Numenor has fallen and only the refugees are left and the elvish kingdoms have dwindled as their folk have begun to leave for Aman (the Dwarves have done relatively well for themselves, but they're a small part of this anyway). Sauron has barely had time to begin ramping up production again after his prolonged absence in Numenor and his rehabilitation as he's had to reconstruct a body for the first time. Still, his forces were able to take Minas Ithil quickly but was unable to take Osgiliath. The Alliance armies gathered strength as they went. Starting with forces from Arnor and Lindon at Weathertop, they passed by Imladris and then South to the Redhorn Pass where the dwarves joined them. Silvan elves from Lothlorien and Mirkwood (Greenswood) met up with them and they all crossed over Anduin and then marched down to the Black Gate. Fast forward through several months of fighting over the Dagorlad, and then seven years of siege at Barad-dur before they finally won. The combined military might of all of the free peoples managed to push back and take out a considerably off-balance Sauron and it still took over a decade. Which brings us to...

The War of the Ring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Ring):
C.B. - Sauron is back in business after his last defeat, he's been methodically building his strength even while the kingdoms of his enemies has waned. This is his final push to eliminate resistance to his rule in Middle-earth, but more specifically, he knows that his Ring has been found and recovering it becomes his primary concern (as it would make the rest of the war much easier).
Combatants - Sauron's standard forces, plus flying mounts for the Nazgul (to better utilize them) along with Orcs and Trolls v2.0 for better daytime service and a fellow fallen Maia who had delusions of grandeur against the remaining descendants of Numenor (who are even more down-on-their-luck), their cavalry-happy allies from Rohan, and pockets of resistance in the only real remaining communities of elves that remain (Mirkwood and Lothlorien, by this time Lindon is pretty much gone) along with the remaining dwarves who had been forced to flee Moria and the lone figure of Gandalf to instigate events.
Summary - This one had been building for a long time. Sauron's forces, under command of the Nazgul during his absence, had managed to destroy the northern kingdom of Arnor and had been harrying Gondor for years and had control of all of their land east of Anduin. At the same time, they made regular raids against Rohan (mostly for mounts, but aggression had been building there too). Beyond the constant state of affairs in Ithilian and the Nazguls' activities in the north, fighting finally broke out in Rohan when Saruman started making trouble there. With the only real cavalry force in Middle-earth tied up by fighting in their own lands, Sauron sends forces to take on the Dwarves and the men of Dale and others to the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothlorien. He has the Corsairs of Umbar to attack the coastal populations and another army to take Cair Andros to keep Gondor's own forces spread out. This is not done as a push to win on all fronts at once. Along about now is when Aragorn revealed himself in the Palantir and Sauron is convinced that the Ring will be in Minas Tirith (or at least headed there). As the Numenoreans, and therefore Gondor, has been his chief opponent he's looking to crush them first. Splitting his armies in the way he has is in order to prevent any aid from reaching the city.

Rohan is able to help because 1) Gandalf managed to get their various forces in motion early, 2) the Ents were mobilized (to everyone's surprise), and 3) after that, the wild men helped sneak their forces around the areas held by Sauron. The Ents were "harmless" and Saruman was foolish to discount them entirely since without them it's unlikely that the good guys would have pulled off a win, but the wild men were the killer as Sauron had done things right and had cut off all known lines of support.

The coastal garrisons were able to send help because the Heir of Elendil turned up to get the ghosts to help scare off/defeat the Corsairs, freeing those troops to reinforce the city.

All of the remainder of Sauron's forces did their intended jobs in this divide-and-conquer strategy, holding steady while the hammer fell on Minas Tirith, which it was doing. The city was losing that fight, and fast. Gandalf may have been able to hold off the Witch-king, but maybe not. The city's greatest defense, the gate, had fallen and with the shortage of men it would have been hard for them to have held off the bad guys once they entered the city. Then things started falling apart. Not one but two surprise armies show up, one of them in place of Sauron's own reserves. Add to that the gods sending a wind to blow away your cover-of-darkness advantage and it's over.

I'd like to see anybody come up with tactics that can withstand 2 armies showing up on your battlefield when they're not suspected. Especially since it should have been impossible for either of them to arrive in time.

Anyway. Having said all of that, I'd still have to say that in a one-on-one fight, this thread goes to Alucard. "Magic" guns + flashy/powerful shadow powers + friggin' unkillable is a hard combination to beat. Beating Sauron's body once = many years before he's in top form again. Beating Alucard's body once = he's back in a minute and now you have his full attention. (It's been years since I watched Hellsing. Any indication that fire/extreme heat is at all problematic for Alucard?)

Even being the consummate Tolkien-nerd that I am, there are just certain settings/genres that outstrip epic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry)-romance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_%28genre%29) in "power".

[Rutee]

1. What?
2. Wait, so normal dark creatures dominate humans, and these dudes dominate normal dark creatures?
3. Except Manipulation, unlike Nukes doesn't need to be done. From what i gather (and correct me if i'm wrong) these Dark creature live in human society and dominate it, but are under constant threat of A) their domination slipping B) Other Dark Creatures taking it away from them
Sauron has only once been in that situation of being inside other person's culture. Now i ask you, why would he want to dominate the world in that manner when he could dominate them the old fashioned way through military power and internal corruption rather than maintaining a Masquerade. Is he a better corrupter? Can't say. Could he dominate a culture in his world in a similar way? Yeah. Could he dominate the real world in such a way. No, because he would be out of his element. However he might be able to pull it off if he was around during the start of the culture, i'd need more information on their methods. Sauron could be weaker (not a wimp but weaker) however we can't say he would have uses said methods if he could because he didn't have to. real question is, would these dark powers be better of ruling externally or internally.
2. Supernaturals, but yes. No Supernatural type in the World of Darkness is inherently evil, and I'm just stopping you from the "lolz Sauron controls all evil because I say he does" dickery before it even starts. Vampires may be God-Forsaken, but they, and Werewolves, are predators, not evil. Unless humanity is evil for herding sheep, I guess. Note, I'm protesting any claims of inherent evil; Most of the Antediluvians are indeed jackasses of the highest caliber.
3. A? Not really. I mean, if somehow the control /did/ slip away, they'd be in trouble, but it's not really something one would fear, because it's realistically not going to happen. At worst (In strictly human terms, and I'm being generous with that), a Hunter might manage some short term frustration of your plans, but humans don't really stand a chance of wriggling out of these schemes. B is a legitimate concern, but it is absolutely counter to your point of "No competition" point. They /live/ in competition. And your "Out of his element" stuff strikes me as irrelevant; My point isn't that he can't conceivably dominate a culture. I know he's done that. I mean conceivably dominate, indirectly, with the barest minimum of direct exposure (Which was not the case in Numenor, as he /paraded/ himself around, from what I gather, and was very, very obvious.) the entire world.

Why would Sauron want indirect control over the world? Because he lost, and he lost without the heroes having Deus Ex Machina the first time. Forget, for a minute, that indirect control is more control then no control, and consider: That level of control necessitates contacts and such a wide-reaching net of operatives that he would have known that the Men and Elves were conceivably, MAYBE POSSIBLY capable of threatening him, /long/ before they had done so. If he had that level of contacts, he'd have known they were capable of ending him before the war, and would have moved to stop the war from happening in the first place, strengthening his rule from behind the shadows. He did none of this. Further, he's not an idiot; Even if he strictly wanted to conquer, he would have,



Meh, depends on their goal. Sauron wants a total lawful world with him (or Morgoth) as dictator. The WOD guys might be better big pictures dudes through, i assume they profit from real world wars/trade?
In their own way. It varies with faction on how they do so, but as I know Mage the best.. the Syndicate, a section of the Technocracy, manipulates the real world economy primarily to make money (And bring Ascension to the masses, through understanding of Wealth); They operate with the New World Order to use some of those money-making efforts to simultaneously strengthen the Technocracy's grip on humanity's soul (Speaking poetically; Specifically, on how pliant humanity is towards the ideas of reason, and how quickly man rejects the concept of the supernatural). Further, the funds the Syndicate makes gets distributed towards the rest of the Technocracy, helping them to in turn advance their various schemes. For war, well, most of the atrocities the Axis committed in WWII were, ultimately, masterminded by Technocrats who wanted a place where they could conduct whatever depraved studies they felt were necessary 'for the greater good'. I'll keep from other examples, mostly in the interest of not-making-this-post-take-forever.


1. Oh sorry, just to check time scale of Sauron's Third Age domination, existence, total domination of corruption?
2. So these dominating groups still have to contend with all of these rivals?
1. More the time scale of LotR in a general sense. How many years pass between major events (Not everything! For the same reason I'm not listing every accomplishment that Mages have). Like I said, the WoD elders operate on a timescale best measured in millenia, so I wanna know what time scale one best figures for Sauron.
2. Mm... diction and situation are key here. The Technocracy is opposed by the Traditions, the Sabbat by the Camarilla, etc, so there's definitely opposition, but there's not that many singular factions that really compete. The only universal direct competition, within any one game, is the Wyrm. Everybody fights him on some level. Generally, the major factions only have two other important groups, within their own game; The Wyrm's helpers of that particular brand (Nephandi for Magi, Black Spiral Dancers for Werewolves, etc), and the antagonistic group (Which is whoever the party doesn't belong to). The factions aren't quite the glorious unification they could be, but they are fairly so, against outside threats.

Within the overarching metaplot where all games are true, but Vampire is more true, it's an enormous cluster@#*!, and you'd need to take notes of who did what, why, and when, to have a hope of understanding it all properly.


1. Sealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand)
2. So the werewolves, demons, changlings, mages, vampires and other supernatural monsters work together to control humanity within these groups or do these groups dominate the dark creatures who in trun dominate humanity
1. Sealand's relevance is the confusing part.
2. Your diction makes that a difficult question to answer succinctly. Generally speaking, the given supernaturals work with their own type, and their own major faction, yes. Werewolves have the capability to control more of humanity then they do, but their real enemy isn't anything inside humanity, but outside our physical world; Namely, the Wyrm. However, the Wyrm does have hooks in rather large segments of humanity (Wiki Pentex, and you'll see what I mean), so it behooves them to counter this. They oppose his corruption, which can also manifest in humans. Vampires work with their own overarching faction (Sabbat/Camarilla), but their goal isn't really human dominance for its own sake, but for the benefits it gives them. Mages probably have the highest vested interest in manipulating humanity, since in the end, their goal was to bring humanity to Ascension; Except people are too stupid to reach it on their own, so they work to get their beliefs ingrained in people in spit of themselves.

Other supernatural groups are more removed from humanity. Demons don't have huge global spanning conspiracies because they were just released (Literally; They just got out of hell, and haven't had more then a year or so to solidify any form of power base). However, they possess greater capabilities then Magi do, and they have an even bigger edge; Humanity remembers, subconsciously, when demons lead them to freedom (Not so much where God punished the lot of them for that freedom, though.), and seek to serve them when they display their true forms. Changelings just don't care. All they're trying to do is bring back a sense of wonder and amazement in humans, and they're not organized enough to do so on a grand scale. Hunters and Mummies organize with each other (That is, Hunters with Hunters, Mummies with Mummies), but neither has a vested interest in controlling humanity. Hunters try to stop supernatural manipulation with violence, usually, and tend to fail at that, metaplot wise. Mummies are out to stop Set's minions from gaining ground in the mortal world.




sounds confusing

Interesting, just one question, wouldn't the PCs always be puppets if this organization (s) are so powerful?
They're not, anymore. That's what I'm trying to get across. It's like.. hm. Is a catholic a puppet of the Catholic church just because it's a global-spanning philosophy? Not at all. It's more like that now. The members will organize on the local level (So you'll theoretically be friendly with each other), but not much higher, usually. It's implied that stuff the PCs get involved with can and sometimes /should/ get that important, I think.

[WalkingTarget]

1. More the time scale of LotR in a general sense. How many years pass between major events (Not everything! For the same reason I'm not listing every accomplishment that Mages have). Like I said, the WoD elders operate on a timescale best measured in millenia, so I wanna know what time scale one best figures for Sauron.

Well, condensed version. Sauron has had several millennia to operate and work on his various schemes (all to the tune of world-domination), but individual instances of these tend to work in much shorter timeframes.

Few hundred years to pull the Ring trick (working with elves, so that's not necessarily a long time).
Sixty years to ruin Numenor.
Fifty or sixty years from getting kicked out of his hidey hole in Mirkwood to being top dog in Mordor again.
War of the Last Alliance was about 11 years, 7 of which was a siege at his front door.

About 1700 years between making the Ring and when he's taken to Numenor.
About 100 years between the Fall of Numenor and the Last Alliance.
About 3000 years between that and the War of the Ring
Main-plot events of Lord of the Rings happen in less than a year (leaving Hobbiton to returning was about 13 months).

Helpful?

[Rutee]

It is, yesh. Sorts out the question very well.

[Oslecamo]

Thanks WalkingTarget for the great explanation.

The LoTr wars are a very complex matter, especially because the relevant information is buried beneath tons of boring text. Tolkien was an historician indeed. And it's also been a while since I last read the books.

Basically there happen a LOT of things that Sauron had no chance to preview but royally screw his plans:

1-Ents(who also protected Rowan from other orc attacks when all the riders were away).
2-Wild mens, who, if I'm not mistaken, also killed the orc scouts in the zone, allowing Rowan forces to catch the evil army totally by suprise.
3-Ghost army, wich both destroyed the corsair forces and gave Aragorn the boats needed to quickly transport reinforcments to Gondor.

Well, it would take some kind of miracle for Sauron to counter all those events. He's a breat tactician, not a god.

[GoC]

Sauron is basically a god. I mean, he's not only the single most powerful entity on Middle Earth, but quite literally the second-in-command to evil itself.

The only way to end Sauron is by destroying his ring, and any outside challenges assumes that he either has his ring on him, Mt. Doom is impossible to reach, or the ring isn't involved. And if the ring is on him, then lets not forget that it gives him the power to dominate creatures of a lesser innate power than him, which means "anything that isn't a god", as well as vastly increase every other power available to him.

The only times Sauron has ever failed to completely eliminate an enemy is in large-scale military battles, when his forces fled. And I believe once or twice against other god-like entities of equal scale to him.

And anyway, Alucard is mortal - he's just given long life and bizarre powers. Mortals can't win against gods, thats all there is to it

edit: Just to give you an impression - think of Gandalf, all the magic available to him, all the knowledge and skill and power. Gandalf is just a step above mortals. Now imagine what "two below Eru" can do.
This is why I persist in trying to correct the evil that has been prepetuated about Sauron.
On to the clarification:
If you mean Middle Earth, the continent in the third age then you're correct. If you mean Middle Earth the universe then you couldn't be more wrong. There's all the valar, Eru and possibly other maia.
Lesser innate power doesn't mean "anything that isn't a god" as there are numerous mortals in fiction and legend more powerful than gods.
Sauron fought personaly twice. He lost both times. Once he attacked Luthien and was defeated by Huan. The other time his castle was besieged and when he had no other option he came out and was killed. He was killed either just by six mortals or by their armies depending on who you ask. Keep in mind this is an army with bows, arrows and swords not some uber high tech or magical army.
Alucard is not mortal. As far as is known he can't be killed. That said this battle will almost certainly be a draw unless someone includes the "one death is enough" clause in which case Alucard wins with amazing ease.
Gandalf is of exactly the same level as Sauron, a Maia. And Gandalf was definitely one of the more powerful Maia.


You can't say, i don't know if Alucard could be destroyed by Sauron's powers, i really don't know if being burned by unholy fire or having your will crushed will do anything. On the flip side, Sauron can shape shift and turn into a spirit, so i don't think ether can do anything. As already said, they might make an evil team
That burning ability is used once and as we have absolutely no idea either how it works or even what it does bringing it up is useless. And I don't recall Sauron ever crushing someone's will in combat. With a few hours of torturous interogation maybe (though I don't remember that) but in the short time of combat? No way. Sauron doesn't really turn into a spirit. He is killed and his spirit is broken free. The ring remained behind on the battlefield but in Numenor he recovered it later on or brought it with him.

Tactics: Sauron's tactics appear fairly sound but not genius level. I really think he should have advised Morgoth though. Melkor sucked horribly at strategy. He spent a good 20 years doing nothing instead of organizing his orcs to control the land. Bandits and rebels ran rampant all around his domain and he lost so many orcs they started disobeying orders rather then head into the woods where they would be ambushed and destroyed.

If this is a single death contest then I think a few bullets should do it. Afterall swords work fine and Sauron can bleed.

Rutee: You're sounding rather hostile. We don't want pro-Sauron acusing us of being unpleasant and rude do we?:smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

No he wasn't.

He was so uninterested in warfare that he spent his time while in the army making up languages and stories to go along with them. While I'm sure he wasn't ignorant of history, it was far removed from his academic field. I'm sure he spent some time researching, and he probably went to colleagues for correction, but that hardly makes him a "historian".
Sorry, not modern English Warfare, but early warfare, he wrote on the battle of hastings i recall from his biography (5th grade language project) and the nature of Calvary


the Uruk/Olog-hai his troops are probably similar for all engagements)
The Uruk and Olog hai came about in the third age i think, nitpick



C.B. - Sauron managed to talk the Numenoreans into, basically, committing suicide. The survivors team up with the elves remaining after the last war to take him out.
Combatants - Sauron's forces as above, but now with Nazgul against the Survivors from Numenor (who have had a little over 100 years to prepare),
Don't forget Sauron's body was destoryed in the breaking of the world and he had to take a lot of time to reform and rebuild, time that the High Men used to regroup, and the elves used to rally. Remember the elves hadn't fought a war since the war of elves and Sauron, so they have had plenty of time to prepare


2. Supernaturals, but yes. No Supernatural type in the World of Darkness is inherently evil, and I'm just stopping you from the "lolz Sauron controls all evil because I say he does" dickery before it even starts. Vampires may be God-Forsaken, but they, and Werewolves, are predators, not evil. Unless humanity is evil for herding sheep, I guess. Note, I'm protesting any claims of inherent evil; Most of the Antediluvians are indeed jackasses of the highest caliber.

1. Watch the cussing there, Sauron does have power over evil, but point taken
2. I think you could make an argument about humans having, you know, rights but point taken
3. Just for clarification, i was asking about the scale here. So it goes Sheep<Humans<Kittens<humans with special powers<Crossbreeds<Lesser Supernatural<greater supernatural<Super awesome supernaturals<gods/Unique beings am i right?


3. A? Not really. I mean, if somehow the control /did/ slip away, they'd be in trouble, but it's not really something one would fear, because it's realistically not going to happen. At worst (In strictly human terms, and I'm being generous with that), a Hunter might manage some short term frustration of your plans, but humans don't really stand a chance of wriggling out of these schemes. B is a legitimate concern, but it is absolutely counter to your point of "No competition" point. They /live/ in competition. And your "Out of his element" stuff strikes me as irrelevant; My point isn't that he can't conceivably dominate a culture. I know he's done that. I mean conceivably dominate, indirectly, with the barest minimum of direct exposure (Which was not the case in Numenor, as he /paraded/ himself around, from what I gather, and was very, very obvious.) the entire world.

I think the biggest difference here is that Sauron likes Dictator styled take over with him being the total ruler and dominating things directly. His rule of Numenor reflects this, he doesn't need to keep a big secret because he can pretty much say "Alright lads, i'm in charge, and you are all compelled to serve me, lets go kill some innocents" Now the WoD have a secret control over humanity because well, as you said competition, they can't reveal themselves until they are secure in their power. So Sauron is more direct in his rule.





In their own way. It varies with faction on how they do so, but as I know Mage the best.. the Syndicate, a section of the Technocracy, manipulates the real world economy primarily to make money (And bring Ascension to the masses, through understanding of Wealth); They operate with the New World Order to use some of those money-making efforts to simultaneously strengthen the Technocracy's grip on humanity's soul (Speaking poetically; Specifically, on how pliant humanity is towards the ideas of reason, and how quickly man rejects the concept of the supernatural). Further, the funds the Syndicate makes gets distributed towards the rest of the Technocracy, helping them to in turn advance their various schemes. For war, well, most of the atrocities the Axis committed in WWII were, ultimately, masterminded by Technocrats who wanted a place where they could conduct whatever depraved studies they felt were necessary 'for the greater good'. I'll keep from other examples, mostly in the interest of not-making-this-post-take-forever.

Ok, but generally these groups benefit from working within the system, i mean their focus might vary, but what ever the goal they do in fact benefit with this hidden relationship (at least until the competition is destroyed). So their goal, unlike Sauron's doesn't seem to be total open domination, which Sauron views as more important.


1. More the time scale of LotR in a general sense. How many years pass between major events (Not everything! For the same reason I'm not listing every accomplishment that Mages have). Like I said, the WoD elders operate on a timescale best measured in millenia, so I wanna know what time scale one best figures for Sauron.
Want anything else other than what WT provided?


2. Mm... diction and situation are key here. The Technocracy is opposed by the Traditions, the Sabbat by the Camarilla, etc, so there's definitely opposition, but there's not that many singular factions that really compete. The only universal direct competition, within any one game, is the Wyrm. Everybody fights him on some level. Generally, the major factions only have two other important groups, within their own game; The Wyrm's helpers of that particular brand (Nephandi for Magi, Black Spiral Dancers for Werewolves, etc), and the antagonistic group (Which is whoever the party doesn't belong to). The factions aren't quite the glorious unification they could be, but they are fairly so, against outside threats.

I'm really sorry, but i have next to no idea of what your saying sadly, i'm going to take that as "They don't get along?" Are there racial differences as well? No one group is pulling a Freemason dominating the entire world right? /stereotypical joke


Within the overarching metaplot where all games are true, but Vampire is more true, it's an enormous cluster@#*!, and you'd need to take notes of who did what, why, and when, to have a hope of understanding it all properly.
Yeah that seems to be the case


1. Sealand's relevance is the confusing part.
2. Your diction makes that a difficult question to answer succinctly. Generally speaking, the given supernaturals work with their own type, and their own major faction, yes. Werewolves have the capability to control more of humanity then they do, but their real enemy isn't anything inside humanity, but outside our physical world; Namely, the Wyrm. However, the Wyrm does have hooks in rather large segments of humanity (Wiki Pentex, and you'll see what I mean), so it behooves them to counter this. They oppose his corruption, which can also manifest in humans. Vampires work with their own overarching faction (Sabbat/Camarilla), but their goal isn't really human dominance for its own sake, but for the benefits it gives them. Mages probably have the highest vested interest in manipulating humanity, since in the end, their goal was to bring humanity to Ascension; Except people are too stupid to reach it on their own, so they work to get their beliefs ingrained in people in spit of themselves.
1. Well if the WoD forces exist, then they must have some important plot involving Sealand, hence its illogical existence :smallwink:
2. So no one group has total control and they all compete but none of them want the humans aware of what is going on, so it is kinda of semi allied/enemy relationship?



Other supernatural groups are more removed from humanity. Demons don't have huge global spanning conspiracies because they were just released (Literally; They just got out of hell, and haven't had more then a year or so to solidify any form of power base). However, they possess greater capabilities then Magi do, and they have an even bigger edge; Humanity remembers, subconsciously, when demons lead them to freedom (Not so much where God punished the lot of them for that freedom, though.), and seek to serve them when they display their true forms. Changelings just don't care. All they're trying to do is bring back a sense of wonder and amazement in humans, and they're not organized enough to do so on a grand scale. Hunters and Mummies organize with each other (That is, Hunters with Hunters, Mummies with Mummies), but neither has a vested interest in controlling humanity. Hunters try to stop supernatural manipulation with violence, usually, and tend to fail at that, metaplot wise. Mummies are out to stop Set's minions from gaining ground in the mortal world.

That seems pretty complex, so let me get this straight, Demons are still going "WFT?" and have something to do with human's freedom, Gods are up to something, Changelings want to manipulate humans to be wonder and amazing from within, Hunters hunt evil (am i right there?) and Mummies do mummy stuff, but nobody wants humans aware of what is going one right?



They're not, anymore. That's what I'm trying to get across. It's like.. hm. Is a catholic a puppet of the Catholic church just because it's a global-spanning philosophy? Not at all.
What time period are we talking here? Through most of history, yes actually, or at least a pawn (not all but most, doubly so during the Jesuit time)



It's more like that now. The members will organize on the local level (So you'll theoretically be friendly with each other), but not much higher, usually. It's implied that stuff the PCs get involved with can and sometimes /should/ get that important, I think.
Wait, so now the organizations are less powerful and less unified.


Oh and GoC, they system goes like this


Eru
Melkar
Greater Valar
Lesser Valar
Morgoth
Sauron/lord of waves, greater Maiar
Luthrien's Mom, lesser Maiar
The five wizards are full power (they might be a category higher, Saurman is the greatest)



That burning ability is used once and as we have absolutely no idea either how it works or even what it does bringing it up is useless. And I don't recall Sauron ever crushing someone's will in combat. With a few hours of torturous interogation maybe (though I don't remember that) but in the short time of combat? No way. Sauron doesn't really turn into a spirit. He is killed and his spirit is broken free. The ring remained behind on the battlefield but in Numenor he recovered it later on or brought it with him.

1. Um, he burned the super elf dude up with a touch, we know how that works. however i don't know if Alucard would even care
2. Um, he dominated Saurman's mind in an instant, he almost blew Pippin's mind from non hostile touch from a far distance through a lesser seeing stone, the Nazgul who is far weaker than he is pulled off some cool stunts and his eye can pierce will
3. No he brought the ring with him (according to quote providing by walking target) from Numenor.
4. He literally made his body and assumed spirit form in the third age. The real question is, can he even kill Alucard?


Tactics: Sauron's tactics appear fairly sound but not genius level. I really think he should have advised Morgoth though. Melkor sucked horribly at strategy. He spent a good 20 years doing nothing instead of organizing his orcs to control the land. Bandits and rebels ran rampant all around his domain and he lost so many orcs they started disobeying orders rather then head into the woods where they would be ambushed and destroyed.
Morgoth had good ideas at first, but as the books (and his madness) go on, they really get the point of just basic, your right. Sauron is described as the more cunning of the two during the first age (after Morgoth's magic)
from
EE

[Selrahc]

I think the biggest difference here is that Sauron likes Dictator styled take over with him being the total ruler and dominating things directly. His rule of Numenor reflects this, he doesn't need to keep a big secret because he can pretty much say "Alright lads, i'm in charge, and you are all compelled to serve me, lets go kill some innocents" Now the WoD have a secret control over humanity because well, as you said competition, they can't reveal themselves until they are secure in their power. So Sauron is more direct in his rule.

Because he doesn't have a dozen methuselahs and the Technocracy ready to destroy him if he causes a fuss.

Is it within the capacity of powerful Vampires or Mages to do what Sauron did? Sure. You don't even need to be at the top of the scale to duplicate his deeds.

What would happen if he tried that in the World of Darkness? http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php/Week_of_Nightmares

The technocracy exists to correct gross overt supernatural occurences. Other elders circle waiting for an easy kill. Ravnos awoke from a millenial slumber, and tried to excersise his might. So the Kue Jin send their greatest warriors to destroy him, and the ensuing carnage alerts the technocracy. They respond with magical NEutron bombs, then a giant sun laser.

And thats why WoD ancients stick to behind the scenes stuff.

[Rutee]

1. Watch the cussing there, Sauron does have power over evil, but point taken
2. I think you could make an argument about humans having, you know, rights but point taken
3. Just for clarification, i was asking about the scale here. So it goes Sheep<Humans<Kittens<humans with special powers<Crossbreeds<Lesser Supernatural<greater supernatural<Super awesome supernaturals<gods/Unique beings am i right?
1. You have an odd definition of cussing.
2. Well, Werewolves don't really hunt humans anyway, but Vamps must to survive. They don't even have to kill their prey :P
3. Nn, I can' give a set powerscale, after Kittens, though if you put a gun to my head I'd say elder magi are the most powerful. It's pretty much just Kittens > Hunters > Other Supernaturals > Elder Supernaturals > Really fragging old Supernaturals.


I think the biggest difference here is that Sauron likes Dictator styled take over with him being the total ruler and dominating things directly. His rule of Numenor reflects this, he doesn't need to keep a big secret because he can pretty much say "Alright lads, i'm in charge, and you are all compelled to serve me, lets go kill some innocents" Now the WoD have a secret control over humanity because well, as you said competition, they can't reveal themselves until they are secure in their power. So Sauron is more direct in his rule.
But Sauron lost. And he evidently didn't predict the heroes had the capability to cause that. Even if he likes outright conquerring, it would have been, unequivocally, smarter to subtly sieze control, destroy/weaken the infrastructure and armies of his foes, learn the layout of the land perfectly, and eventually, conquer them outright. He /didn't do that/. It would have been /smarter/ to do so if he had the capability. That's how we can surmise /he did not have that capability/.




Ok, but generally these groups benefit from working within the system, i mean their focus might vary, but what ever the goal they do in fact benefit with this hidden relationship (at least until the competition is destroyed). So their goal, unlike Sauron's doesn't seem to be total open domination, which Sauron views as more important.
It boils down to "Either Sauron is an idiot with no sense of long term strategy", or "Sauron can't manipulate that well", dear. Speaking from some measure of experience in the matter from Civ4, it is always smarter to cause your enemies to weaken themselves or each other while you gather strength then it is to just outright begin a war of conquest.


I'm really sorry, but i have next to no idea of what your saying sadly, i'm going to take that as "They don't get along?" Are there racial differences as well? No one group is pulling a Freemason dominating the entire world right? /stereotypical joke
The Technocracy /does/ dominate the entire world, within Mage at least. There are small side victories that hte Traditions pull out (And some major ones, like Quantum Physics and Dark Matter Theory), but predominantly, the Technocracy wins. That's why humanity believes in Reason and Science, not Magic and Myth.



1. Well if the WoD forces exist, then they must have some important plot involving Sealand, hence its illogical existence :smallwink:
2. So no one group has total control and they all compete but none of them want the humans aware of what is going on, so it is kinda of semi allied/enemy relationship?
They'll break the Masquerade to smack each other around. They just have to fix the Masquerade when they're done. That said, even then, Magi tend to fight from the shadows, because Paradox won't try to whomp them as much. No, there really isn't an allied/enemy thing, they just share one single goal.



That seems pretty complex, so let me get this straight, Demons are still going "WFT?" and have something to do with human's freedom, Gods are up to something, Changelings want to manipulate humans to be wonder and amazing from within, Hunters hunt evil (am i right there?) and Mummies do mummy stuff, but nobody wants humans aware of what is going one right?
Not really that close, but not terribly far either. Demons aren't sitting around, they just haven't had much time to work with. Changelings don't really manipulate, they inspire. Hunters hunt supernaturals of all stripes, morality be damned; They want the Masquerade to break, but in a meaningful way, rather then one that just gets the witnesses offed or mind-wiped.



What time period are we talking here? Through most of history, yes actually, or at least a pawn (not all but most, doubly so during the Jesuit time)
Most of history doesn't count; Peasants typically didn't have rights anyway. Once they did, they typically stopped being puppets of the catholic church simultaneously, generally. I did, however, mean now.



Wait, so now the organizations are less powerful and less unified.
Yes.


And thats why WoD ancients stick to behind the scenes stuff.
I never knew the specifics there; That's so hilariously camp.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

How did this mutate from Alucard Vs. Sauron to "Whos better at manipulating, Sauron or this fairly unrelated universes big baddies"?

[Rutee]

Another claim from a Sauron supporter that Sauron was the king of manipulation. He's /good/, sure, but not superlative.

Honestly, I don't see Sauron beating Alucard except by Legalese, depending on the wording of the "Kill 1 time" rule. Alucard tends to allow himself to get beaten around until he has to fully regenerate himself. If that counts as a "Death", then he's going to lose. Otherwise, well..

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Another claim from a Sauron supporter that Sauron was the king of manipulation. He's /good/, sure, but not superlative.

Honestly, I don't see Sauron beating Alucard except by Legalese, depending on the wording of the "Kill 1 time" rule. Alucard tends to allow himself to get beaten around until he has to fully regenerate himself. If that counts as a "Death", then he's going to lose. Otherwise, well..

Sometimes Alucard intentionally acts like a spoiled child, this includes playing with his food... :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

1. You have an odd definition of cussing.
2. Well, Werewolves don't really hunt humans anyway, but Vamps must to survive. They don't even have to kill their prey :P
3. Nn, I can' give a set powerscale, after Kittens, though if you put a gun to my head I'd say elder magi are the most powerful. It's pretty much just Kittens > Hunters > Other Supernaturals > Elder Supernaturals > Really fragging old Supernaturals.
[/QUOTE
1. I think the word in question counts
2. But as they are generally tend to be somewhat evil and thus killing humans can be expected. And the moral problems with the whole domination thing
3. I was talking in order of who is manipulating who

[QUOTE]But Sauron lost. And he evidently didn't predict the heroes had the capability to cause that. Even if he likes outright conquerring, it would have been, unequivocally, smarter to subtly sieze control, destroy/weaken the infrastructure and armies of his foes, learn the layout of the land perfectly, and eventually, conquer them outright. He /didn't do that/. It would have been /smarter/ to do so if he had the capability. That's how we can surmise /he did not have that capability/.
Or he didn't see the need. Now remember, the WoD approach takes LOTS of time before results are seen, lots of work and lots of risks. Sauorn has a very good chance of winning via direct conquest, and didn't see the need. Remember, WoD approach took (i'm guessing) most of human history and no one group was able to do it. So Sauron never had a logical chance to do so, nor any incentive.



It boils down to "Either Sauron is an idiot with no sense of long term strategy", or "Sauron can't manipulate that well", dear. Speaking from some measure of experience in the matter from Civ4, it is always smarter to cause your enemies to weaken themselves or each other while you gather strength then it is to just outright begin a war of conquest.

Sauron did that actually, he just didn't use the WoD approach, but he did cause his enemies to greatly weaken themselves while he gathered strength, mostly with his greatest foes the elves and the Dwarves and Gondor
The WoD forces don't seem unified at all, now i'm just going by my random wanderings of the annoyingly disorganized wiki but it seems we have

Vampires
Werewolves,
Changlings
Mages
Wraiths
Demons-Fallen
Promethean
Chrima
Mummies
And most likely a bunch of other things i've missed, but you get the point. Now they seem to mostly have different houses (and the Changlings have a bunch of sub speicies like Trolls or pixies) who in turn have a bunch of blood lines, and then we have a lot of different organizations and what not. So this human corruption thing doesn't seem like a coherent push and correct me if i'm wrong, but more of bunch of different groups who are all maintain this giant secret Harry Potter/ Buffy/Men in Black style, forgive the references?


The Technocracy /does/ dominate the entire world, within Mage at least. There are small side victories that hte Traditions pull out (And some major ones, like Quantum Physics and Dark Matter Theory), but predominantly, the Technocracy wins. That's why humanity believes in Reason and Science, not Magic and Myth.
Wait, so these other groups are also dominated by the Technocracy? Or am i missing something.


They'll break the Masquerade to smack each other around. They just have to fix the Masquerade when they're done. That said, even then, Magi tend to fight from the shadows, because Paradox won't try to whomp them as much. No, there really isn't an allied/enemy thing, they just share one single goal.

But they aren't coherent


Not really that close, but not terribly far either. Demons aren't sitting around, they just haven't had much time to work with. Changelings don't really manipulate, they inspire. Hunters hunt supernaturals of all stripes, morality be damned; They want the Masquerade to break, but in a meaningful way, rather then one that just gets the witnesses offed or mind-wiped.

But all of them are working within the system to benefit from it, nobody is directly dominating humanity


Most of history doesn't count; Peasants typically didn't have rights anyway. Once they did, they typically stopped being puppets of the catholic church simultaneously, generally. I did, however, mean now.

Define rights. Do you mean suffrage or right of religion or what? As for now, well it is still kinda that sort of relationship, i'm kinda edgy on going into that


Yes.

Doesn't that go against your statement on the orgnization dominating the entire world?

How did this mutate from Alucard Vs. Sauron to "Whos better at manipulating, Sauron or this fairly unrelated universes big baddies"?
Because it is more interesting than the real thread?
And Selrahc, from what i can gather, and correct me if i'm wrong, but the WoD forces seem to be a lot of different dudes who are collectivity dominating humanity while fighting each other. Sauron tends to organize all of the corrupt forces under one banner and spread out from there. So personally, i think a single unified force that corrupts things is a little bit more dangerous than a lot of different groups who happen want to hide/control humanity while fighting each other and doing this for different reasons.

from
EE

[Rutee]

Or he didn't see the need. Now remember, the WoD approach takes LOTS of time before results are seen, lots of work and lots of risks. Sauorn has a very good chance of winning via direct conquest, and didn't see the need. Remember, WoD approach took (i'm guessing) most of human history and no one group was able to do it. So Sauron never had a logical chance to do so, nor any incentive.
Logical chance, Yes. Incentive? He lost the first itme. He has TONS of incentive to trade a resource he has an infinite amount of (Time) for a resource he can not get enough of (Odds of victory). Even if he had not lost, it behooves him to /win the war before he goes to war/. He did not even bother to build a network of operatives to have proper information? Come on. Occam's Razor is pretty applicable. "He was so arrogant he was stupid about victory" strikes me as less probable then "He could not assemble that level of contacts".



Sauron did that actually, he just didn't use the WoD approach, but he did cause his enemies to greatly weaken themselves while he gathered strength, mostly with his greatest foes the elves and the Dwarves and Gondor
The WoD forces don't seem unified at all, now i'm just going by my random wanderings of the annoyingly disorganized wiki but it seems we have
He got his ass kicked without deus ex machina; He didn't do it well enough. Sorry, but that's how it goes.



And most likely a bunch of other things i've missed, but you get the point. Now they seem to mostly have different houses (and the Changlings have a bunch of sub speicies like Trolls or pixies) who in turn have a bunch of blood lines, and then we have a lot of different organizations and what not. So this human corruption thing doesn't seem like a coherent push and correct me if i'm wrong, but more of bunch of different groups who are all maintain this giant secret Harry Potter/ Buffy/Men in Black style, forgive the references?
Oh gods. Repeat: Human corruption is not a primary focus. Only the Wyrm actually wants to do it. The Wyrm is not "Every single supernatural". I've said it twice; This is the last repetition, so listen up. Within the overarching metaplot, there are many organizations and groups working at counter purposes. Within a single game, there are generally not.



Wait, so these other groups are also dominated by the Technocracy? Or am i missing something.
Nnngh. The Traditions lose to the Technocracy in multiple wars (In many different variations of what 'War' means). They do not take orders from the Technocracy.


But all of them are working within the system to benefit from it, nobody is directly dominating humanity
....No, the Technocracy is pretty explicitly out to dominate and run humanity, as /it's what they're doing/. That's not their stated goal, but it's the one they actually work towards.


Define rights. Do you mean suffrage or right of religion or what? As for now, well it is still kinda that sort of relationship, i'm kinda edgy on going into that
...No, it isn't that sort of relationship. Sorry, but there isn't a conspiracy theory where Darth Sidious the pope runs all of Catholicism's practitioners' lives.


Doesn't that go against your statement on the orgnization dominating the entire world?
I said /spans/ the globe. It's an organization you can find in every part of the world (Like, say, how the Red Cross is in a lot of different countries). That doesn't make it an organization that /runs/ the world.

[EvilElitest]

Logical chance, Yes. Incentive? He lost the first itme. He has TONS of incentive to trade a resource he has an infinite amount of (Time) for a resource he can not get enough of (Odds of victory). Even if he had not lost, it behooves him to /win the war before he goes to war/. He did not even bother to build a network of operatives to have proper information? Come on. Occam's Razor is pretty applicable. "He was so arrogant he was stupid about victory" strikes me as less probable then "He could not assemble that level of contacts".

Think for a second, he lost the first time because his enemy had a force that could match his. In the Third age, they didn't have that. He did have an extensive spy network by the way, so yes he did have a network of operatives (it included a lot of animals as well) and he did spend time separating and destroying many of his foes from within.


a
He got his ass kicked without deus ex machina; He didn't do it well enough. Sorry, but that's how it goes.

He lost because his army was on equal footing with his foe, in the third age he kept that from happening. He was trying a different miltary approach, not a totally different approach altogether. It is also worth noting that the elves make dominating societies like there's very different. Face it, he had the odds on his side in terms of miltary force and no inventive to go spy style, if you can win with miltary power, why bother wasting time for a masquerade? he would have won the war of the ring if it wasn't for Gollum


Oh gods. Repeat: Human corruption is not a primary focus. Only the Wyrm actually wants to do it. The Wyrm is not "Every single supernatural". I've said it twice; This is the last repetition, so listen up. Within the overarching metaplot, there are many organizations and groups working at counter purposes. Within a single game, there are generally not.

Calm down, re-read the post, i am also asking about the control of human society. now in the general metaplot, these groups are no working together in their domination for humanity (and by domination i mean the controlling history/events part) in terms of having one coherent ruler of all of them correct?


Nnngh. The Traditions lose to the Technocracy in multiple wars (In many different variations of what 'War' means). They do not take orders from the Technocracy.
explain please.


....No, the Technocracy is pretty explicitly out to dominate and run humanity, as /it's what they're doing/. That's not their stated goal, but it's the one they actually work towards.
Do you mean dominate in the Harry Potter/Men in Black Sense or Dominate in the Total Control sense? And to achieve this goal do they need to dominate/destroy the other supernatural groups?




...No, it isn't that sort of relationship. Sorry, but there isn't a conspiracy theory where Darth Sidious the pope runs all of Catholicism's practitioners' lives.
I wasn't making that claim, i was talking about religions or any organization's dominance over its members, i doubt the Pope is a Sith (through if he had a lightsaber that would be amazing)



I said /spans/ the globe. It's an organization you can find in every part of the world (Like, say, how the Red Cross is in a lot of different countries). That doesn't make it an organization that /runs/ the world.
No offensive, but that seems to limit their domination of humanity powers, but i'm most likely missing something

from
EE

edit
Tengu is a very bad person

[Rutee]

Think for a second, he lost the first time because his enemy had a force that could match his. In the Third age, they didn't have that. He did have an extensive spy network by the way, so yes he did have a network of operatives (it included a lot of animals as well) and he did spend time separating and destroying many of his foes from within.
The first two times, he lost because the enemy force matched his. The third time, he /did/ in fact, go ot war after already winning it, you're correct, *but he did not have much indirect control over his enemies*. Rohan and whatever Saruman's city were, yes, to an extent, but he /had/ enemies that could oppose him overtly (If not as well as possible).



He lost because his army was on equal footing with his foe, in the third age he kept that from happening. He was trying a different miltary approach, not a totally different approach altogether. It is also worth noting that the elves make dominating societies like there's very different. Face it, he had the odds on his side in terms of miltary force and no inventive to go spy style, if you can win with miltary power, why bother wasting time for a masquerade? he would have won the war of the ring if it wasn't for Gollum
If you're absolutely correct that you will win, there's no reason to waste time. Except, and here's the kicker, he did not have that in the first two wars. And yet he went to overt war instead of using more time consuming, insidious methods. when time is an infinite resource for him. We can assume that those insidious, manipulative potential paths were not options in any meaningful sense.

And no, I don't mean "If you think you'll win". That kind of intel gathering is what wins or loses a war.


Calm down, re-read the post, i am also asking about the control of human society. now in the general metaplot, these groups are no working together in their domination for humanity (and by domination i mean the controlling history/events part) in terms of having one coherent ruler of all of them correct?
Their control over human society, when you only talk that one game, is near complete. The final edition of Vampire: The Masquerade that I have is quite explicit about that, even listing 'trivial' things such as movements in the fashion industry, the rising popularity of the Internet, and a number of conspiracy theorists. It's only in the overarching metaplot, where all the games are true (Which is not the assumption within one game) that the groups really have their control over humanity really, REALLY contested. And as stated, the overarching metaplot is a cluster@#*!, so I'm loath to discuss it.


explain please.
Serious opposition to the Technocracy comes from 2 sources alone, within Mage; Specifically, the Tradition Mages (Whom are out to /exist/, and are well organized with each other), and the Wyrm (Which is much more subdued and unknown). The Traditions will fight the Technocracy, both overtly (particular when an NWO or It-X suppression squad shows up on their doorstep), and covertly. By and large, this doesn't change the fact that the Technocracy runs the show; The Technocracy primarily wins, before PC intervention


Do you mean dominate in the Harry Potter/Men in Black Sense or Dominate in the Total Control sense? And to achieve this goal do they need to dominate/destroy the other supernatural groups?
I'm going to try to be unequivocal, so I'm avoiding your similes, sorry;
When I say "Dominate", I mean total control, from behind the shadows. Total control over humanity doesn't honestly necessitate the destruction of every other form of supernatural; Werewolves, Changelings, and Mummies generally don't give a damn about controlling humanity, or fighting the Technocracy; However, the Technocracy is still out to destroy every other form of Supernatural, because they're Reality Deviants, and 'shouldn't' exist. In one sense, they do have to kill everything, in another, they don't.




I wasn't making that claim, i was talking about religions or any organization's dominance over its members, i doubt the Pope is a Sith (through if he had a lightsaber that would be amazing)
You're still overthinking the level of control. Generally an organization can't demand more then a token amount of money and time commitment. nWoD's organizations demand more, but it still doesn't control them.


No offensive, but that seems to limit their domination of humanity powers, but i'm most likely missing something
We're talking nWoD powers here, so yeah, you are missing something. nWoD powers aren't supposed to dominate humanity. That was the point of an edition change.

[WalkingTarget]

Nnngh. The Traditions lose to the Technocracy in multiple wars (In many different variations of what 'War' means). They do not take orders from the Technocracy.
explain please.


EE, the technocracy has shaped reality in a "logical" way. The fact that the universe seems to follow things like Newton's laws of motion, universal gravitation, the atomic model of elements, Bernoulli's Principle, etc. in a consistent fashion is evidence that the Technocracy is winning.

That's the point. If they weren't winning, science wouldn't work. They've managed to pull a fast one on the entire world (other than members of the Traditions and the other WoD supernaturals). All of the Sleepers (i.e. normal humans with no knowledge of the supernatural, the vast majority of the population) has bought into this so much that reality actively resists being altered in ways inconsistent with scientific "laws" (game mechanic of paradox).

(edit - err... At least, that's how Paradox worked in the old WoD... I didn't play enough of the new one to internalize the applicable rules. Although, I wasn't aware that the Technocracy existed in the new version either, so I might still be ok there. Feel free to correct any errors here Rutee or anyone else who knows the system/setting better)

[Rutee]

No, that's pretty much spot on. Paradox in nWoD comes from the backlash of drawing too much energy from the Supernal Realms across the Abyss that seperates the realms of magic from the physical world, rather then the universe beating you senseless for daring to argue with the Consensus Reality. The only real correction is that Science would still work if it weren't the consensus.. it would just only work for those with Awakened souls, because it would revert to being magic.

Paradox is primarily a mage thing, as a note. Offhand, the closest anyone else comes is Changelings, except their magic doesn't fall apart from breaking physics; It falls apart when a really, really, really mundane human interacts with it. Werewolves and Vampires aren't subject to Paradox or the Consensus Reality because they're just as much natural beings as humans, and Demons have a /divine mandate/ to alter reality; Reality /likes/ being warped by a Demon. It primarily applied to humans trying to alter the laws of reality.

Hm, technically, a Changeling isnt' even alterring the laws of reality; They're just making it look like they are...

[Callos_DeTerran]

i doubt the Pope is a Sith (through if he had a lightsaber that would be amazing)

If the Pope was a Sith Lord, I'd be Catholic right now. :smallamused:

[Verruckt]

I'll attempt to resolve this whilst avoiding insufferably long point - counterpoint type posts, by directing the fellows of this thread to the eighth issue of the manga, the pertinent event being described here
In volume 8, his full identity is made plain. Reverting to the body he had at the time of his "death" at age 45, he summons massive hordes of souls he had devoured during the centuries. These include his own Wallachian army, peasantry, Turkish Janissaries, war horses, and others. Throughout his battle with Anderson, Alucard frequently compares his rival to the man who defeated him a hundred years ago - Abraham van Helsing. Additionally, in Hundred Swords (3), the other protagonists are spoken of by Alucard - Abraham van Helsing, Jack Seward, Quincey Morris, and Arthur Holmwood (Jonathan Harker is strangely omitted).[8] The final chapter of volume 8 - Castlevania (1) - consists of a flashback of Alucard's life and "death" as the voivod of Wallachia,[9] Vlad III Dracula.

lacking pictures suffice it to say that at control art restriction level zero, Alucard becomes Dracula and craps out an animated army made of blood and the souls of his enemies, this army being of sufficient size to overwhelm an army of long gun toting catholic knights and ss vampires in a matter of seconds. Also, he has a 13mm hand gun and is immortal/invincible on a level Sauron could only wish for, being able to reform within seconds of crashing an SR-71 into the deck of an aircraft carrier.

his big weakness is the simple fact that he has no real direction or motives other than to serve as a bipedal tac-nuke for integra hellsing.

[EvilElitest]

The first two times, he lost because the enemy force matched his. The third time, he /did/ in fact, go ot war after already winning it, you're correct, *but he did not have much indirect control over his enemies*. Rohan and whatever Saruman's city were, yes, to an extent, but he /had/ enemies that could oppose him overtly (If not as well as possible).

1. Technically, he only lost directly to miltary power totally once, the War of Elves and Sauron was more of him losing an army, them losing a few kingdoms, he was generally fine
2. Arnor, Humans, Elves, northmen, the east, they west, Mirkwood, ect? he did a lot more than the movies showed



If you're absolutely correct that you will win, there's no reason to waste time. Except, and here's the kicker, he did not have that in the first two wars. And yet he went to overt war instead of using more time consuming, insidious methods. when time is an infinite resource for him. We can assume that those insidious, manipulative potential paths were not options in any meaningful sense.

Only in one war, the war of elves and Sauron he simple lost an army. It wasn't a total defeat, as he destroyed most of his foes' land and still had Mordor under his control. So he didn't need to do more corruption (remember, before he had invaded he pulled of a corruption deal)
During the Second War, he couldn't pull it off because the enemy was already focused upon him


Their control over human society, when you only talk that one game, is near complete. The final edition of Vampire: The Masquerade that I have is quite explicit about that, even listing 'trivial' things such as movements in the fashion industry, the rising popularity of the Internet, and a number of conspiracy theorists. It's only in the overarching metaplot, where all the games are true (Which is not the assumption within one game) that the groups really have their control over humanity really, REALLY contested. And as stated, the overarching metaplot is a cluster@#*!, so I'm loath to discuss it.
So it seems that WoD's control over humanity differs from edition to edition?


Serious opposition to the Technocracy comes from 2 sources alone, within Mage; Specifically, the Tradition Mages (Whom are out to /exist/, and are well organized with each other), and the Wyrm (Which is much more subdued and unknown). The Traditions will fight the Technocracy, both overtly (particular when an NWO or It-X suppression squad shows up on their doorstep), and covertly. By and large, this doesn't change the fact that the Technocracy runs the show; The Technocracy primarily wins, before PC intervention
this seems more like a cold war then, one that happens to be secret from everybody else. So vampires and werewolves are pawns of the technocracy?


I'm going to try to be unequivocal, so I'm avoiding your similes, sorry;
what?


When I say "Dominate", I mean total control, from behind the shadows. Total control over humanity doesn't honestly necessitate the destruction of every other form of supernatural; Werewolves, Changelings, and Mummies generally don't give a damn about controlling humanity, or fighting the Technocracy; However, the Technocracy is still out to destroy every other form of Supernatural, because they're Reality Deviants, and 'shouldn't' exist. In one sense, they do have to kill everything, in another, they don't.
Over this total control seem to in fact be (and correct me if i'm wrong) to be a jumble of difference groups fighting for control, with the Technocracy who wish to obtain total control (but haven't yet)


You're still overthinking the level of control. Generally an organization can't demand more then a token amount of money and time commitment. nWoD's organizations demand more, but it still doesn't control them.

Varies, i mean look at the Crusades



We're talking nWoD powers here, so yeah, you are missing something. nWoD powers aren't supposed to dominate humanity. That was the point of an edition change.
So they no longer dominate humanity any more? just to be clear


And Verrukt, Alucard literally can't be killed?
from
EE

[Oslecamo]

his big weakness is the simple fact that he has no real direction or motives other than to serve as a bipedal tac-nuke for integra hellsing.

Not exactly. Alucard is pretty much impossible to defeat by brute force. However, if you know the right spells and rituals, he can be totally locked, chained and enslaved

A couple of facts suport this:

1-Hellsing somehow managed to defeat Alucard and his minions and force him to serve the Hellsing family trough the restrictions system.

2-In the original anime, when Anderson first meets Alucard, he manages to lock the vampire's powers with special holy papers wich he sticks to all the walls. Then Alucard is unable to heal the wounds from the priest's attacks or do any of his fancy tricks. Alucard just escapes alive because Integra appears and orders Anderson to leave him alone. Anderson obeys and exits the house whitout further violence. Then Integra even yells at Alucard for being defeated "by a simple regenerator".

In the OVA however Anderson was nerfed and the papers only stop Alucard from passing trough them.

However it shows Alucard is vulnerable to the right kinds of magic. 99% of it's oponent's however try to defeat him by trough brute force.

[Guts]

Er, Anderson was not nerfed in the OVA (well the same thing happened in the manga). Its just that Alucard's resistance to holy weapons is that great (when Anderson becomes a Monster of God, Alucard still survives and regenerates from being cut in half). Anyways, its pretty obvious he was not as strong in the 1800's as he is now, since he was beaten according to the events that occured to the Dracula novel or the Coppola movie version Hirano said he was inspired by. Intregra said the her family had been experimenting on Alucard for over a century to turn him into the ultimate undead. The right magic it took to defeat him was quantum physics :smalltongue: .

[Oslecamo]

Integra only discovered Alucard after her father died, and he had been locked up for decades anyway whitout anyone going in that room.

So, I highly doubt Integra actually knows anything specific about what really happened with Alucard. I believe she said that only to scare Anderson off.

Also, I'm not talkig about killing him, but locking. Even in 1800 Alucard got his heart pierced by a stake by Hellsing and didn't died. However it was aparently enough to lock him.

It's not my fault nobody remembers to try to put another stake in his heart.

[Guts]

Several flashbacks indicate that Intregra's father had been telling her of vampires and other monsters long before he croaked and he mentioned of the Hellsing family's greatest achievement and fruit of decades of work and tinkering to reference to Alucard on his deathbed, so its clear that at least up to her father's death, Hellsings have had Alucard on steroids to made him stronger.

Her dad had Al stored away because he found him 'too potent a drug' and to give the vampire a temporary 'death'. Intregra could have also asked her dad's close friend Sir Irons and her butler about all the experiments performed on Alucard, so I thinks her statement was true. And honestly why would a stake to the heart bother someone who laughs off near liquidation. He just wasn't as 'ZOMGWTFBBQ" back then as he is in modern times.

[Oslecamo]

He just wasn't as 'ZOMGWTFBBQ" back then as he is in modern times.

Says who? He terrified transilvania for about 4 centuries. The legend and fear of vampires spread troughout the world. Before Hellsing apeared he had an army of minions under his command to do his bidding. Even after Alucard fell the legend of Dracula kept living. It takes a ZOMGWTFBBQ character to manage this.

Also, the big guns help a lot to his most recent ZOMGWTFBBQ factor.

[Rutee]

1. Technically, he only lost directly to miltary power totally once, the War of Elves and Sauron was more of him losing an army, them losing a few kingdoms, he was generally fine
2. Arnor, Humans, Elves, northmen, the east, they west, Mirkwood, ect? he did a lot more than the movies showed
No, he lost twice. Oslecamo and WT were very unequivocal about that; First he was pushed back to his borders, then a seperate war, against the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. He. Lost. Wars. It doesn't matter if he /lives/ through it, because he by himself can not carry on a war.
2. Funny, because WT and Oslecamo's posts indicate that he wasn't controlling those regions, but /attacking/ them, which are different things.



Only in one war, the war of elves and Sauron he simple lost an army. It wasn't a total defeat, as he destroyed most of his foes' land and still had Mordor under his control. So he didn't need to do more corruption (remember, before he had invaded he pulled of a corruption deal)
During the Second War, he couldn't pull it off because the enemy was already focused upon him
There was a time gap between the first and second wars. If he could have conquerred indirectly when faced with superhuman beings, he would have. Do you understand what Occam's Razor is?

If he could have conquerred the world indirectly, he's a fragging moron; There's no two ways about it. "Hm, do I use the methodology that /works/.. or do I be stupid and try something that has failed already..."



So it seems that WoD's control over humanity differs from edition to edition?
Mercifully. I wouldn't have botherred with nWoD if it were the exact same thing with updated mechanics.



this seems more like a cold war then, one that happens to be secret from everybody else. So vampires and werewolves are pawns of the technocracy?
It's not really cold, it's that only the Technocracy actively seeks to make it hot. Tradition Mages don't generally want to directly fight the technocracy, because they're outnumberred and often outgunned. When Cyber Tooth Tigers or HIT Marks show up on their doorstep though, they'll fight back.



Over this total control seem to in fact be (and correct me if i'm wrong) to be a jumble of difference groups fighting for control, with the Technocracy who wish to obtain total control (but haven't yet)
No. Within Mage, it really is near-total control over humanity, if not total control. Tradition Mages aren't fighting for control; They're fighting to survive. They lost control, big time. They're not getting it back. The Wyrm more wants absolute destruction over humanity, not control over it, and it's got some subtle control, but not /that/ much. I've been enumerating the difference between "Within the overarching metaplot" and "Within Mage" for a very specific reason. 'course, like I said, the Technocracy is not completely unified either.


Varies, i mean look at the Crusades
Yeah, those were a real show of the church's power, what with the various Christian countries using it to try and benefit politically.

Wait, what?



So they no longer dominate humanity any more? just to be clear
Well, if you played oWoD, they would. They don't in nWoD.


Says who? He terrified transilvania for about 4 centuries. The legend and fear of vampires spread troughout the world. Before Hellsing apeared he had an army of minions under his command to do his bidding. Even after Alucard fell the legend of Dracula kept living. It takes a ZOMGWTFBBQ character to manage this.
It would appear that the show itself is what is saying he wasn't as ZOMGWTFBBQ then as he is now., looking at what he's saying.

[Oslecamo]

It would appear that the show itself is what is saying he wasn't as ZOMGWTFBBQ then as he is now, looking at what he's saying.

In the show it appears very little about Alucard's life before Integra awakening him.

However, the following happens:

The headquarters is being overrun by armed ghouls lead by 2 enemy vampires. Almost all of Hellsing soldiers are dead. Integra, the big boss of Hellsing, is actually scared for once. And then her buttler comments something like this:


"Don't worry mistress Integra. This is nothing compared to what the first Hellsing had to face."

So, the Hellsing family had already fighted and defeated very powerfull enemies before having the necessary time of upgrading Alucard. Heck, maybe it was Alucard they were fighting.

Either way, 1800 Alucard was no slouch, based on this

[Guts]

^ Yes but still he wasn't as powerful back then as he is now. We see in a flashback that Van Helsing injured him badly with a stake to the heart, and now in modern day, he laughs off having his heart sliced in half or being smeared on the ground like butter on toast. Simply having a legion of vampire servants, ghouls and possibly animals such as bats and wolves doesn't make him personally any stronger. What Walter could be referring to might be Dracula's servants (if they were vampires they'd be a lot smarter, faster and more resilient than ghouls), assuming he was talking about Van helsing and not the first person in the family to use Hellsing as a surname. There's also evidence in the manga that he was pressed into the service of the Hellsing family after his defeat in the 1800's.

The manga (and eventually OVA) do show quite a lot of Alucard's life before meeting Intregra. There is the Dawn which shows him and a 14yr old Walter defeating the Nazi vampire army the first time (though its not complete) and there are flashbacks to his like as Vlad Tepes.

[mause]

I vote for the 3 seconds tolerance before baskerville rip off Sauron's head:smallwink:

there is no way else. Alucard even took down the god Seth and Anderson with the nail of Elena plus he has the vital force of millions of souls

[EvilElitest]

No, he lost twice. Oslecamo and WT were very unequivocal about that; First he was pushed back to his borders, then a seperate war, against the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. He. Lost. Wars. It doesn't matter if he /lives/ through it, because he by himself can not carry on a war.
2. Funny, because WT and Oslecamo's posts indicate that he wasn't controlling those regions, but /attacking/ them, which are different things.

1. Um, no, first he his attacking army was defeating after destroying most of the Elven kingdoms. He then build up a second army, was attacked by the High men, pulled of the corruption deal, got crushed, returned to Mordor, built up another army, was attacked directly, this time by a ready and highly organized force,
lost
2. He did both, or corrupted them. For example, he dominated 3/4 of mirkwood and tainted the last 1/4.


There was a time gap between the first and second wars. If he could have conquerred indirectly when faced with superhuman beings, he would have. Do you understand what Occam's Razor is?

If he could have conquerred the world indirectly, he's a fragging moron; There's no two ways about it. "Hm, do I use the methodology that /works/.. or do I be stupid and try something that has failed already..."

Except there needs to be a reason to conquer the world indirectly. The war of Elves and Sauron was only a miltary defeat in the sense that the Battle of Antitam was a blow for hte north (technically the north won, but considering the outcome of the battle, it wasn't a real victory). Or the Battle of Chanclerville a defeat for the North, it was upsetting yes, and damaging, and greatly hinder, but it didn't cripple the north. Or in this case, the War of Elves and Sauron as upsetting yes, very damaging, but he wasn't pwned, and he did enough damage that it was clear that all he had to do was rebuild his army and try again, even if he losses, if the defeat is costly for the victories, it is generally a victory for him.



Mercifully. I wouldn't have botherred with nWoD if it were the exact same thing with updated mechanics.
So the supernatural creature's power of manipulation can't really be measured?


It's not really cold, it's that only the Technocracy actively seeks to make it hot. Tradition Mages don't generally want to directly fight the technocracy, because they're outnumberred and often outgunned. When Cyber Tooth Tigers or HIT Marks show up on their doorstep though, they'll fight back.

Remember, i know very little, what?


No. Within Mage, it really is near-total control over humanity, if not total control. Tradition Mages aren't fighting for control; They're fighting to survive. They lost control, big time. They're not getting it back. The Wyrm more wants absolute destruction over humanity, not control over it, and it's got some subtle control, but not /that/ much. I've been enumerating the difference between "Within the overarching metaplot" and "Within Mage" for a very specific reason. 'course, like I said, the Technocracy is not completely unified either.
so Mages are one fraction, who are trying to resist being dominated by the Technocracy, the Wyrm wants total control, but apparently hasn't gotten it yet, and the Technocracy isn't unified, and other fraction (vampires ect) are doing there own thing?


Yeah, those were a real show of the church's power, what with the various Christian countries using it to try and benefit politically.

Wait, what?
They still got a massive amount of Christians to go fight in the Middle East. Or if you prefer, look at the Spanish Hatsburgs relationship with the Pope, ect.



Well, if you played oWoD, they would. They don't in nWoD.

So did they lose there control, or was it a recon?

from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

1. Um, no, first he his attacking army was defeating after destroying most of the Elven kingdoms. He then build up a second army, was attacked by the High men, pulled of the corruption deal, got crushed, returned to Mordor, built up another army, was attacked directly, this time by a ready and highly organized force,
lost
2. He did both, or corrupted them. For example, he dominated 3/4 of mirkwood and tainted the last 1/4.

War of Elves and Sauron: Eregion (Celebrimbor's kingdom) destroyed but Sauron pushed back east of Anduin, Lindon (Gil-galad's kingdom) was under siege for a while, but wasn't destroyed for the most part. This was a military defeat for Sauron in that his war of aggression failed to achieve his objectives (i.e. controlling all of Middle-earth, although it's a Pyhrric victory for the elves since one kingdom was wrecked beyond repair), he didn't really lose any land that he had controlled before the war, though. That didn't happen until the Last Alliance when he was trounced six ways from Sunday. If you want to get down to it, there is room for an argument that his "capture" by Numenor was a military defeat in that his troops ran away at the mere sight of the western forces. Sauron was ready for this with his Xanatos Gambit, but the troops weren't ordered to act that way.


So did they lose there control, or was it a recon?

The new World of Darkness games are not continuations of the old ones. A lot of aspects of the game settings and mechanics carried over, but a lack of Technocracy in the new version of Mage is due to that aspect of the meta-plot being left out of the game entirely, not due to a "loss" by their faction in the plot of the old one.

[Rutee]

1. Um, no, first he his attacking army was defeating after destroying most of the Elven kingdoms. He then build up a second army, was attacked by the High men, pulled of the corruption deal, got crushed, returned to Mordor, built up another army, was attacked directly, this time by a ready and highly organized force,
lost
2. He did both, or corrupted them. For example, he dominated 3/4 of mirkwood and tainted the last 1/4.
Thank you, WT.



Except there needs to be a reason to conquer the world indirectly. The war of Elves and Sauron was only a miltary defeat in the sense that the Battle of Antitam was a blow for hte north (technically the north won, but considering the outcome of the battle, it wasn't a real victory). Or the Battle of Chanclerville a defeat for the North, it was upsetting yes, and damaging, and greatly hinder, but it didn't cripple the north. Or in this case, the War of Elves and Sauron as upsetting yes, very damaging, but he wasn't pwned, and he did enough damage that it was clear that all he had to do was rebuild his army and try again, even if he losses, if the defeat is costly for the victories, it is generally a victory for him.
You seem to have missed the crux of my point; /He has no reason to try because he knows he can't do it/.



So the supernatural creature's power of manipulation can't really be measured?
*Facepalm*
No, they can be measured, as much as any abstract ability can be, especially in oWoD. I was just saying, in nWoD, Supernaturals aren't end all.




Remember, i know very little, what?


so Mages are one fraction, who are trying to resist being dominated by the Technocracy, the Wyrm wants total control, but apparently hasn't gotten it yet, and the Technocracy isn't unified, and other fraction (vampires ect) are doing there own thing?
Right, okay, starting from square one.
1. Technocrats are Mages. Science is Magic, it's just Magic that works because we the ordinary mortals believe it works. This is the Consensus Reality; What mortals believe, by and large, dictates how reality works.
2. The faction you referred to as "Mages" is more accurately referred to as "Tradition Mages". They belong to Traditions that predates Science (Mostly), and has a different way of doing things.
3. The only other major Faction, in Mage, is the Wyrm. Vampires and Werewolves exist, and are organized with each other loosely, but are not members of a large group that acts in a concerted manner, in general.
4a. The Technocracy wishes to rule over humanity, and bring them to ascension, even if they have to lead them by the nose. Their belief in an ordered, structured reality means they wish to kill off Tradition Mages, Vampires, Werewolves, pretty much every other form of supernatural, for the high crime of being "Reality Deviants".
4b. The Traditions want to live, and individually pursue Ascension. They also want to weaken the Consensus Reality, and do this through various schemes. The traditions have achieved some global furthering of this unifying cause (Each one also wishes to make its beliefs more accepted by the Masses).
4c. The Wyrm is insane, and wants to kill or corrupt everything. Yes, everything. That too. The Wyrm is the essence of entropy, warped through insanity (Don't ask me how that happens, it'll just confuse you) to seek the absolute destruction of the world.
5a. The Technocracy runs most of humanity, indirectly. This indirect domination /is/ opposed by the Traditions, but only insofar as that domination makes their own existence difficult.
5b. The Wyrm has corrupted mortals somewhat, but this does not significantly detract from the Technocracy's control over humanity at large. It simply makes living a bit more grim and gritty. Mostly. Some of those humans actively serve the Wyrm, which is when they actually do detract from the Technocracy's control. See more below.
6a. The technocracy is fairly unified. There's some byzantine politics going on inside, but MOST Technocrats seek to outdo their peers through their own competence, rather then actively sabotaging their colleagues.
6b. However, there is a small subset of the Technocracy, within The Syndicate (A Faction within the Technocracy); This faction is directly allied with the Wyrm, and is very much a conspiracy.
6c. There is, in some /rare/ cases, camaraderie between Technocracy and the Tradition Mages. Most notable in the Void Engineers, as they are often in a mostly friendly rivalry with the Virtual Adepts and the Sons of Ether. This can stop them from effectively combating those Tradition mages.


They still got a massive amount of Christians to go fight in the Middle East. Or if you prefer, look at the Spanish Hatsburgs relationship with the Pope, ect.
But they're not puppets of the church; The soldiers were mostly there because that's what the /nobles/ want, because the nobles perceive this as an easy way to legitimately claim land. It's not strictly the church's actions that make it easier to claim formerly-heathen land as your own.

Basically, their actions benefited the Church, but it benefited the Nobles more. I wouldn't really call it manipulation or puppetry. As to a close relationship between the First and Second Estates.. more the exception then the rule.




So did they lose there control, or was it a recon?
DnD feels the need to change its settings, but essentially give them a snap back to the status quo, when it changes editions; Not all games do this. In the WoD's case, nWoD is a completely new story. Everything from before /does not apply to the world/. The creation myths for the various supernaturals are even different. It's brand new, except for the themes (kinda).

[Selrahc]

They still got a massive amount of Christians to go fight in the Middle East. Or if you prefer, look at the Spanish Hatsburgs relationship with the Pope, ect.


The Hapsburgs were not particularly subservient to the Pope. If anything, it was the other way round, with Rome being heavily influenced by the Spanish court.

And European kingdoms were not pawns of the Pope, half the time they were excommunicated, and they very often refused recomendations from Popish authorities.

The pope was certainly an influence on medieval monarchs, but he wasn't a controlling influence.

As for the idea that the pope and the catholic church were able to control every single member? Well given the crappy infrastructure and communications along with the sheer organizational burden, and hopefully you'll realize that it is a practical impossibility.

I think you've overstated your case here.

[EvilElitest]

If you want to get down to it, there is room for an argument that his "capture" by Numenor was a military defeat in that his troops ran away at the mere sight of the western forces. Sauron was ready for this with his Xanatos Gambit, but the troops weren't ordered to act that way.
Open to interpretation, they might have run away from one battle, or run away before he showed up, but regardless, he wasn't trying to motivate them for a full scale war


Thank you, WT.



You seem to have missed the crux of my point; /He has no reason to try because he knows he can't do it/.

You miss the point, Sauron's miltary defeat wasn't a desperate enough situation for him to resort to corruption. When the High Men showed up, it was, but that doesn't count as a miltary defeat, as there weren't any major battles. Sure he lost an army in teh War of Elves and Sauron, but he didn't lose anything important and he greatly hurt hte elves. Pretty good situation if you don't care about your dudes lives


Here, let me use a metaphor


Lets say you Rutee, are the Queen on a kingdom, called Ruteeland. The people of Rutee land are extremely powerful, granted immortally by the powers given by Link's Hat. As such, they are extremely old, extremely powerful, and very wise. They have great magic, cool equipment, super training, magic items, and cool hair. Problem is, they reproduce slowly, and grow up slowly.
Rutee Land is bordered by Selrahcville, a powerful valley city state, a land of super magic, but only limited miltary power. There is the Mountain Kingdom of Dervagdia, and the Forest Kingdom of GoC (um, German Occupied Countries?) These are watched over by the two Elven kingdoms of Mr. Scalylanda And Asmodousland. Now all of these nations have moderatly sized but extremely powerful forces.

Now to the South, the three great empires have United

Led by My Empire known as the EEEAE (EvilElitest's Extremly Awesome Empire) is not only vast and super defensible, it is also filled with a massive army that is not only absurdly huge, but easily expandable as i grow by troops in bottles
I ally myself with the Nation of Rownixo to the south, who has a massive force of fierce warriors and Giant Ninja Elephants, The nation of WEAREREALLYUNDEAD, and the Eastern nation of Wartganistan, along with the Northern Kingdom led by the Warlock Queen (also known as Talya) known as Talyslavia, and the Mountain Goblins infested land of Dementoria and The Demented Kingdom. I also get my Satellite states of Yahziard and Dol Executor, and together we all go off to kill you people. Now you take some time to unite, but unite you do and we have a big old war. Now you take out a lot of my dudes, and we suffer great losses, however every one of the Good Forces lost is gone for good. While you eventually get unexpeted aid from the lands of Bajoria and Stevin the Lich's Tree people (don't ask) i am able to destroy Asmodousland totally, Cripple Ruteeland, destroy lots of Selrahcville and corrupt most of GoC, as well as greatly hurting the armies of all of the other nations. Both sides are buying supplies from Walking Target's private country, known as Sealand. My victory is near, when the Mighty army of Tengu appears and shows the sig that is true evil. All of our armies are destroyed, but we don't lose any land, and you have lost many people, some kingdoms and suffered massive damage. Now i lost, but i can just built a second army, you people can't do that


Yeah i kinda lost control of that metaphor.




*Facepalm*
No, they can be measured, as much as any abstract ability can be, especially in oWoD. I was just saying, in nWoD, Supernaturals aren't end all.

do blame me, i don't know when your talking about oWoD or nWoD half the time


Right, okay, starting from square one.
1. Technocrats are Mages. Science is Magic, it's just Magic that works because we the ordinary mortals believe it works. This is the Consensus Reality; What mortals believe, by and large, dictates how reality works.
Should i even bother to try to consider the logic behind this?


2. The faction you referred to as "Mages" is more accurately referred to as "Tradition Mages". They belong to Traditions that predates Science (Mostly), and has a different way of doing things.
ok


3. The only other major Faction, in Mage, is the Wyrm. Vampires and Werewolves exist, and are organized with each other loosely, but are not members of a large group that acts in a concerted manner, in general.
So the WoD world only has three fractions, Wyrm, Techies, Mages


4a. The Technocracy wishes to rule over humanity, and bring them to ascension, even if they have to lead them by the nose. Their belief in an ordered, structured reality means they wish to kill off Tradition Mages, Vampires, Werewolves, pretty much every other form of supernatural, for the high crime of being "Reality Deviants".
So how do they pull of this domination?


4b. The Traditions want to live, and individually pursue Ascension. They also want to weaken the Consensus Reality, and do this through various schemes. The traditions have achieved some global furthering of this unifying cause (Each one also wishes to make its beliefs more accepted by the Masses).
That Techies control doesn't sound very complete then

4c. The Wyrm is insane, and wants to kill or corrupt everything. Yes, everything. That too. The Wyrm is the essence of entropy, warped through insanity (Don't ask me how that happens, it'll just confuse you) to seek the absolute destruction of the world.
...i thought you said he was a cunning manipulator:smallconfused:

5a. The Technocracy runs most of humanity, indirectly. This indirect domination /is/ opposed by the Traditions, but only insofar as that domination makes their own existence difficult.
5b. The Wyrm has corrupted mortals somewhat, but this does not significantly detract from the Technocracy's control over humanity at large. It simply makes living a bit more grim and gritty. Mostly. Some of those humans actively serve the Wyrm, which is when they actually do detract from the Technocracy's control. See more below.
6a. The technocracy is fairly unified. There's some byzantine politics going on inside, but MOST Technocrats seek to outdo their peers through their own competence, rather then actively sabotaging their colleagues.
6b. However, there is a small subset of the Technocracy, within The Syndicate (A Faction within the Technocracy); This faction is directly allied with the Wyrm, and is very much a conspiracy.
6c. There is, in some /rare/ cases, camaraderie between Technocracy and the Tradition Mages. Most notable in the Void Engineers, as they are often in a mostly friendly rivalry with the Virtual Adepts and the Sons of Ether. This can stop them from effectively combating those Tradition mages.[/QUOTE]
Ok this helps explain a lot. However nobody has pulled of a total absolutist domination


But they're not puppets of the church; The soldiers were mostly there because that's what the /nobles/ want, because the nobles perceive this as an easy way to legitimately claim land. It's not strictly the church's actions that make it easier to claim formerly-heathen land as your own.

Tell that to all the knight's who's first loyalty was to the Church.


Basically, their actions benefited the Church, but it benefited the Nobles more. I wouldn't really call it manipulation or puppetry. As to a close relationship between the First and Second Estates.. more the exception then the rule.
If the Church gets somebody to do its bidding, then that person is a pawn



DnD feels the need to change its settings, but essentially give them a snap back to the status quo, when it changes editions; Not all games do this. In the WoD's case, nWoD is a completely new story. Everything from before /does not apply to the world/. The creation myths for the various supernaturals are even different. It's brand new, except for the themes (kinda).

Oh that makes sense, what version were you referring to?



The Hapsburgs were not particularly subservient to the Pope. If anything, it was the other way round, with Rome being heavily influenced by the Spanish court.
Charles the V dude,


And European kingdoms were not pawns of the Pope, half the time they were excommunicated, and they very often refused recomendations from Popish authorities.

The pope was certainly an influence on medieval monarchs, but he wasn't a controlling influence.
and the other half of the time the Pope could rival the Kings in power. i mean look at the power of the Catholic Church before Martin Luther, that is part of what he was standing up against


As for the idea that the pope and the catholic church were able to control every single member? Well given the crappy infrastructure and communications along with the sheer organizational burden, and hopefully you'll realize that it is a practical impossibility.
no, my point is that anyone who takes orders from the Church is basically a pawn in the grand scheme of things. Same with a government.
from
EE

[Rutee]

Open to interpretation, they might have run away from one battle, or run away before he showed up, but regardless, he wasn't trying to motivate them for a full scale war


You miss the point, Sauron's miltary defeat wasn't a desperate enough situation for him to resort to corruption. When the High Men showed up, it was, but that doesn't count as a miltary defeat, as there weren't any major battles. Sure he lost an army in teh War of Elves and Sauron, but he didn't lose anything important and he greatly hurt hte elves. Pretty good situation if you don't care about your dudes lives
HIS METHODOLOGY FAILED. You don't need a desperate situation to switch strategies because yours is failing. And his military situation was that bad, at the time of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men; And he /would have known that/ if he could have spun a web of operatives. Even if your goal has nothing to do with indirect conquest, you should have spies and saboteurs. He did not have the capability to do this. Incidentally, your metaphor isn't; Not concise enough.



do blame me, i don't know when your talking about oWoD or nWoD half the time
You should, considerring I specify.


Should i even bother to try to consider the logic behind this?
Belief Determines Reality is not an unknown philosophy.


So the WoD world only has three fractions, Wyrm, Techies, Mages
In Mage, yes.



So how do they pull of this domination?
Their domination over the Masses is mostly effected by the New World Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_World_Order_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29), which primarily uses Subtle Mind Magic over the masses, through a variety of different channels (Like entertainment media). They are also one of the groups most likely to hunt down Mages and Reality Deviants. the Syndicate, which effects control over the masses through the control of wealth; Money makes the world go round. The Progenitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progenitors_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29)are tasked with the creation of infiltration clones, which can perpetuate massive control over Sleeper society (Or the Traditions!); They also have some pretty diabolical schemes to control or placate sleepers, and prevent Werewolves and Mages from, er, breeding, among other schemes among their group; They also try to (And often succeed at) affecting the Cult of Ecstasy ((A Mage Tradition) by controlling their drug supply. Iteration-X is often used as a brute enforcer arm, as well as supplying materiele to the other groups, such as their Cyber Tooth Tiger robots that are taking down Magi and other Supernaturals. The Void Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Void_Engineers_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29) don't work much on Earth, so predictably, their role in perpetuating the Technocracy's rule is small. Primarily, they fight invaders from beyond our version of space-time, but they also hunt down Reality Deviants on our planet.


That Techies control doesn't sound very complete then
Considerring that the Traditions usually fail, with some very notable exceptions (And the PCs), I'd say it's pretty complete. It's still more then Sauron ever got.


...i thought you said he was a cunning manipulator:smallconfused:
No, I said he was great at corruption. I'm really not sure how much he directly micromanages his servants, but they're pretty darn effective, whether he's issuing them lots of commands or not.


Ok this helps explain a lot. However nobody has pulled of a total absolutist domination
The Technocracy is pretty damn close, but for the interference who are /also/ better at Sauron at indirect manipulation.



Tell that to all the knight's who's first loyalty was to the Church.
That ain't most of Europe in medieval times, dear.


If the Church gets somebody to do its bidding, then that person is a pawn
No, a pawn won't bite the hand that moves it, as most of the First Estate did as soon as it got a good chance (See: The Protestant Movement)




Oh that makes sense, what version were you referring to?
For uber manipulators who routinely force Xanatos Roulletes to succeed? oWoD, no question. For an actually fun setting, nWoD.




Charles the V dude,


and the other half of the time the Pope could rival the Kings in power. i mean look at the power of the Catholic Church before Martin Luther, that is part of what he was standing up against
Look at how easily that power fractured with the Protestant revolution. If people were pawns of the Catholic Church, it would have held up much longer.


no, my point is that anyone who takes orders from the Church is basically a pawn in the grand scheme of things. Same with a government.
Control does not work that way! Good night!

[Oslecamo]

and the other half of the time the Pope could rival the Kings in power. i mean look at the power of the Catholic Church before Martin Luther, that is part of what he was standing up against


no, my point is that anyone who takes orders from the Church is basically a pawn in the grand scheme of things. Same with a government.
from
EE

The church in medieval times never gave orders to anyone.

The church power came because people wanted to save their souls, and one way of achieving this was suposedly to donate money to the church to buy cathedrals and pay priests to pay for you and other similar stuff.

The curch also said "this is right" and "this is wrong", but most of the time people really didn't care about it or just paid some money to shut the priests up.

Let me give you an example on how the church power was mostly symbolical.

You know Portugal, that little country next to Spain?

In case you don't know, Portugal was formed when a french noble fught for Spain against the infidels that still controlled part of Europe and received some land in return. His son, D. Afonso Henriques, decided that he wanted to turn that land independant from Spain. So he assembled an army, repelled from his lands those who were against his idea, but still had a trouble.

The Spain king, not wanting to waste troops in unecessary battles, claimed that the new kingdom "Portugal" was fake because it wasn't recognized by the pope. He hoped to lower moral of the portuguese people by declaring them basically "infidels".

D.Afonso Henriques wrote to the pope and promised him a substantial amount of gold if he recognized Portugal as a catholic country.

The pope acepted and wrote the necessary documents. Spain's trick was turned against him as now Portugal was recognized as a new catholic country. D. Afonso Henriques got the unquestionable suport from his people who now believed they were fighting "in the side of god".


D. Afonso Henriques, however, never sent the gold to the pope. The church couldn't really go back with his decision, wich would mean they would have been tricked by some little guy, and D.Afonso Henriques had his country with a minimal sacrifice of manpower and gold.

[Selrahc]

Charles the V dude,

What the heck are you talking about? :smallconfused:

There are two Charles the V's of Spain. One was the big famous one, who was actually Charles I of Spain, and Charles V of the Holy Roman Emperor.

He was most definitely not a pawn of the Pope. He sacked Rome, and kept the Pope a prisoner, because the Pope was giving support to his French enemies.
After that, the Pope was a puppet of Charles, plain and simple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_%281527%29

The other Charles V of Naples, Charles II of Spain was an inbred moron who was incurably insane. He had little to no influence over his own kingdom, which was run by a series of regents.


and the other half of the time the Pope could rival the Kings in power. i mean look at the power of the Catholic Church before Martin Luther, that is part of what he was standing up against

Well the Pope was a fairly powerful temporal ruler, controlling large territories in Italy most of the time. So of course he had the power of a king.

Martin Luther was standing up against endemic corruption in the Catholic church, not because it had too much power.



no, my point is that anyone who takes orders from the Church is basically a pawn in the grand scheme of things. Same with a government.

You have a really incredibly loose definition of a pawn. When I'm playing chess I don't want a piece that may go one way and may go another way, as long as it suits it; that spends most of its time fighting or squabbling with the other pawns and occasionally leaps off the board, burns down my house and kills me.

The Church did have some influence over medieval monarchs. But it was not the major influence, and was frequently ignored. Other times relgion is just a smokescreen for other reasons, or used in a way that the church disaproves of.

[WalkingTarget]

Open to interpretation, they might have run away from one battle, or run away before he showed up, but regardless, he wasn't trying to motivate them for a full scale war

Hence my wording of "room for an argument". :smallwink:


You miss the point, Sauron's miltary defeat wasn't a desperate enough situation for him to resort to corruption. When the High Men showed up, it was, but that doesn't count as a miltary defeat, as there weren't any major battles. Sure he lost an army in teh War of Elves and Sauron, but he didn't lose anything important and he greatly hurt hte elves. Pretty good situation if you don't care about your dudes lives

Right, the military defeat was a result of his attempt to corrupt the elves failing (the Ring trick). The war was his attempt at pulling out a win when his attempt at subversion went all wahoonie-shaped.

Major battles involving the "High Men": Sauron attacking Mithlond with Cirdan and Gil-galad defending but losing. The arrival of Numenoreans turns the tide and Sauron has to fall back after heavy losses at the Brandywine. A second group of Numenoreans come up from the south and attack at Tharbad. The resulting Battle of Gwathlo resulted in a complete route of Sauron's forces. The remaining army that had been besieging Imladris (without Sauron's immediate presence) is then mopped up after being caught between the two "good" forces. These are military defeats and considering the strength that Sauron's armies would have to have had to get as far as they did, the battles were probably pretty major.

While Eregion is destroyed, Gil-galad's kingdom expands greatly between this time and the Last Alliance, so it's not like the war crippled the elves. However, Sauron did manage a partial success in his goals: he managed to reclaim the 16 "lesser" Rings. This does not detract from the point, EE, that Sauron's forces lost militarily.


So how do they pull of this domination?

Initially? Try the Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_philosophy)/Age of Reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th-century_philosophy)/Age of Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) for starters. The gradual evolution and acceptance of "scientific" explanations for phenomena instead of religious or mystical ones is evidence of their domination. Very subtle and it took centuries, but it worked and by the present anybody would have a much harder time dislodging them from their position of strength then it was for them to get there in the first place (which is why they make such good antagonists for the oWoD Mage game).


That Techies control doesn't sound very complete then

Tell that to your computer/desk lamp/refrigerator. They wouldn't work if the Techies weren't succeeding. Some small minority of people are convinced that the Moon Landings were faked. Doesn't mean that there's any danger of that belief catching on with the population at large.


Ok this helps explain a lot. However nobody has pulled of a total absolutist domination

True, and the same can be said of pretty much any system in human history. If their control was "absolute" then there wouldn't be any faction for the PCs to belong to.

[Seraph]

this is hilarious.

I'm sure that Sauron can manipulate all of middle earth to his side. no, really, not joking. all the kingdoms of men and elves, at his side, to bring a massive force of elves, orcs, and men to bear.

Alucard will look at this unparalelled force. and then he will kill them all.

[SurlySeraph]

You know, I'm surprised that none of the Sauron fans mentioned how he survived having a continent dropped on him.

I realize that Alucard's regeneration is made out of cheapness, but how exactly would he regenerate from having a continent dropped on him? There's no place to rebuild his body in, and he can't summon familiars to push it off him because there's no room to summon them in. Even if Alucard survived the continent-drop without his body being badly damaged, he couldn't get out: even his superstrength isn't enough to move a continent, his reflexes and speed are useless, and his guns aren't powerful enough to blast through it.

Sauron, with his ability to go incorporeal when his body is broken, managed to get out from under the continent.

Given the difficulty of permanently killing either of them, I think that the winning condition should be finding a way to confine the opponent for an extended period. Mordor is full of strong orcs and trolls to carry heavy things, and Mount Doom indicates that there must be some seismic activity in the region. I'd say Sauron could win by finding a way to knock Alucard into a ravine and then just piling rubble on him until Alucard can't get out.

[Lizard]

You know, I'm surprised that none of the Sauron fans mentioned how he survived having a continent dropped on him.

I realize that Alucard's regeneration is made out of cheapness, but how exactly would he regenerate from having a continent dropped on him? There's no place to rebuild his body in, and he can't summon familiars to push it off him because there's no room to summon them in. Even if Alucard survived the continent-drop without his body being badly damaged, he couldn't get out: even his superstrength isn't enough to move a continent, his reflexes and speed are useless, and his guns aren't powerful enough to blast through it.

Sauron, with his ability to go incorporeal when his body is broken, managed to get out from under the continent.

Given the difficulty of permanently killing either of them, I think that the winning condition should be finding a way to confine the opponent for an extended period. Mordor is full of strong orcs and trolls to carry heavy things, and Mount Doom indicates that there must be some seismic activity in the region. I'd say Sauron could win by finding a way to knock Alucard into a ravine and then just piling rubble on him until Alucard can't get out.

Alucard can, pass through solid objects and teleport. Sure it would be quite a trek, to pass through a continent, but he would be able to survive the same way Sauron did. Again, list of Alucards abilities (including intangability and teleportation):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alucard_%28Hellsing%29

[WalkingTarget]

You know, I'm surprised that none of the Sauron fans mentioned how he survived having a continent dropped on him.

Because he didn't have a continent dropped on him. He had the continent he was standing on sink under the waves Atlantis style, killing the "body" he was wearing at the time (and rebuilding a body isn't something to do lightly for him). This was divine intervention by the omnipotent, omniscient creator deity in Tolkien's setting as the world was turned from flat into a globe.

[Rutee]

Because he didn't have a continent dropped on him. He had the continent he was standing on sink under the waves Atlantis style, killing the "body" he was wearing at the time (and rebuilding a body isn't something to do lightly for him). This was divine intervention by the omnipotent, omniscient creator deity in Tolkien's setting as the world was turned from flat into a globe.

Since I'm sure he can swim, how did that kill him?

[Poison_Fish]

Since I'm sure he can swim, how did that kill him?

With the weight of an ego like Saurons, of course he'd sink to his death.

/end cheap shot.

[WalkingTarget]

Since I'm sure he can swim, how did that kill him?

Dunno. Narrative Causality? When the Atlantis-equivalent sinks, the inhabitants die unless they're on a boat already.

[zerombr]

i've never watched Hellsing, so in truth my opinion doesn't matter, but on the subject of the 'VS' threads...
Until Sauron is replaced by another foe, he will be considered the epitome of power in the VS style threads

this rule holds over into other genres, much as other game consoles tout their ubergame as a "Mario killer", while this may be true, perhaps the game is, in general, better than a Mario game, the term does not shift to "Sonic Killer" or whatnot, therefore Mario is penultimate within his genre, as Sauron is within his, until the genre shifts.

That is all.

[Rutee]

i've never watched Hellsing, so in truth my opinion doesn't matter, but on the subject of the 'VS' threads...
Until Sauron is replaced by another foe, he will be considered the epitome of power in the VS style threads

this rule holds over into other genres, much as other game consoles tout their ubergame as a "Mario killer", while this may be true, perhaps the game is, in general, better than a Mario game, the term does not shift to "Sonic Killer" or whatnot, therefore Mario is penultimate within his genre, as Sauron is within his, until the genre shifts.

That is all.

Oh Gods. I go through the entire thread demonstrating why Sauron is not end-all even at the one thing his fans can almost legitimately defend, and this crap continues.

[Poison_Fish]

Well to be fair, it's really just his fanbase or those against his fanbase that keep using him as an example.

I assume the majority of his fan base (with a few certain exceptions) don't consider him all that high in a power scale.

[SurlySeraph]

Alucard can, pass through solid objects and teleport. Sure it would be quite a trek, to pass through a continent, but he would be able to survive the same way Sauron did. Again, list of Alucards abilities (including intangability and teleportation):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alucard_%28Hellsing%29

What? No way can he... *rereads list* ... oh. So that's why everyone says Alucard's overpowered.

It's still borderline impossible for either of them to destroy the other. I'm going to give it to Alucard, now. In LOTR, I remember that Gandalf said that Sauron expected that one of the fellowship would try to set himself up as a new dark lord. Therefore, presumably you can destroy Sauron with his ring of you are sufficiently powerful. I'd say Alucard gets the ring and sets himself up as Dark Lord.

[Rutee]

What? No way can he... *rereads list* ... oh. So that's why everyone says Alucard's overpowered.

It's still borderline impossible for either of them to destroy the other. I'm going to give it to Alucard, now. In LOTR, I remember that Gandalf said that Sauron expected that one of the fellowship would try to set himself up as a new dark lord. Therefore, presumably you can destroy Sauron with his ring of you are sufficiently powerful. I'd say Alucard gets the ring and sets himself up as Dark Lord.

He was already (and honestly, still is, given that his power comes from the millions of souls that he's using) a Dark Lord; He wouldn't really need the Ring..

[WalkingTarget]

In LOTR, I remember that Gandalf said that Sauron expected that one of the fellowship would try to set himself up as a new dark lord. Therefore, presumably you can destroy Sauron with his ring of you are sufficiently powerful.

Yeah, in one of his letters, Tolkien spells it out. If somebody is capable of bending the Ring to his/her will it may as well have been destroyed as far as Sauron is concerned. Tolkien went on to say that mortals, not even Aragorn, would be able to do this, though. Gandalf probably, maybe the other Ringbearers (Elrond, Galadriel, possibly Cirdan), but not humans.

Adding in people from other settings who exceed the definition of "mortal" present in LotR might change things, but within the original context, no way.

Agreed that Al is pretty much set up in the Dark Lord department already if it wasn't for the Hellsing organization.

[thubby]

i've never watched Hellsing, so in truth my opinion doesn't matter, but on the subject of the 'VS' threads...
Until Sauron is replaced by another foe, he will be considered the epitome of power in the VS style threads

this rule holds over into other genres, much as other game consoles tout their ubergame as a "Mario killer", while this may be true, perhaps the game is, in general, better than a Mario game, the term does not shift to "Sonic Killer" or whatnot, therefore Mario is penultimate within his genre, as Sauron is within his, until the genre shifts.

That is all.

and here i was hoping to unseat sauron as "ultimate evil VS guy" :smallfrown:

[Selrahc]

he couldn't get out: even his superstrength isn't enough to move a continent, and his guns aren't powerful enough to blast through it.

I realize this point has already been countered on multiple levels but...

Well a continent isn't a single object. Alucard wouldn't need to lift an entire continent, but just be able to smash upwards through the rock that the continent is made from.

[EvilElitest]

HIS METHODOLOGY FAILED. You don't need a desperate situation to switch strategies because yours is failing. And his military situation was that bad, at the time of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men; And he /would have known that/ if he could have spun a web of operatives. Even if your goal has nothing to do with indirect conquest, you should have spies and saboteurs. He did not have the capability to do this.

He did set up a web of operatives during the Third age, during the last alliance he didn't have time to rally all of his forces and was attacked by extremely prepared and determined foe. He failed. So the next time, he got a massive spy web ready, as seen in the third age. He didn't integrate into a society in the third age, there was no need too.



Incidentally, your metaphor isn't; Not concise enough.

fair enough, it was more fun making it

Anyways, howe about this. We both have countries. i invade you. You destroy my entire army, i destroy half of your population, half your army, and most of you land. I can replace my troop no problem at all, you can't. So it is technically your victory, but you only won a battle, not a war


You should, considerring I specify.
varies, but fair enough


Belief Determines Reality is not an unknown philosophy.

So in WoD, is all science really magic?

In Mage, yes.
I don't belive you made that clear, what do you mean by In mage? Do you mine oWoD is in fact Mage? Or something else? are the mages the only ones with this super control? Is mage a specific game within WoD?



Their domination over the Masses is mostly effected by the New World Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_World_Order_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29), which primarily uses Subtle Mind Magic over the masses, through a variety of different channels (Like entertainment media). They are also one of the groups most likely to hunt down Mages and Reality Deviants. the Syndicate, which effects control over the masses through the control of wealth; Money makes the world go round. The Progenitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progenitors_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29)are tasked with the creation of infiltration clones, which can perpetuate massive control over Sleeper society (Or the Traditions!); They also have some pretty diabolical schemes to control or placate sleepers, and prevent Werewolves and Mages from, er, breeding, among other schemes among their group; They also try to (And often succeed at) affecting the Cult of Ecstasy ((A Mage Tradition) by controlling their drug supply. Iteration-X is often used as a brute enforcer arm, as well as supplying materiele to the other groups, such as their Cyber Tooth Tiger robots that are taking down Magi and other Supernaturals. The Void Engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Void_Engineers_%28Mage:_the_Ascension%29) don't work much on Earth, so predictably, their role in perpetuating the Technocracy's rule is small. Primarily, they fight invaders from beyond our version of space-time, but they also hunt down Reality Deviants on our planet.

interesting. But how did they obtain this control? Years of integration?

Considerring that the Traditions usually fail, with some very notable exceptions (And the PCs), I'd say it's pretty complete. It's still more then Sauron ever got.

In his lands he had a complete and total domination without even bothering with the pretense of secrecy.



No, I said he was great at corruption. I'm really not sure how much he directly micromanages his servants, but they're pretty darn effective, whether he's issuing them lots of commands or not.

So does he control their minds, does he dominate their will, what?



The Technocracy is pretty damn close, but for the interference who are /also/ better at Sauron at indirect manipulation.

Except there domination of humanity seems to be aided by other fractions who they compete with. It isn't a total dictatorship



No, a pawn won't bite the hand that moves it, as most of the First Estate did as soon as it got a good chance (See: The Protestant Movement)
what about the loyal Catholics who stuck with the Church?



For uber manipulators who routinely force Xanatos Roulletes to succeed? oWoD, no question. For an actually fun setting, nWoD.


alright



Look at how easily that power fractured with the Protestant revolution. If people were pawns of the Catholic Church, it would have held up much longer.

And look at all of the people who fought for the Church in the Thirty Year war, of the Jesuits, or the "soul Collection"



Control does not work that way! Good night!
If the Pope shows up at my door and tell me to find the holy Grail, and i do find it (It was in my closet the whole time) and give it to him, i am still his pawn.

Oslecamo, it doesn't matter if the Church's power was based upon symbolism, the point is that they still had that power.

And i was talking about religions cause in the Thirty Year War, Charles V did go to the war because of religion (the states breaking off was a separate issue) It was a religious war at first, it warped into a political war in the end but the cause was basically religious

Also Martin Luther did resent the power of the Church, remember the whole deal about everybody finding there own salvation

And WT, i think what destroyed Sauron's body was the island collapsing around him. Also the deal with Alucard claiming the ring, that doesn't seem like his style, he seems to psychotic

He does have a gun however



Oh Gods. I go through the entire thread demonstrating why Sauron is not end-all even at the one thing his fans can almost legitimately defend, and this crap continues.
1. well i'm just going to assume the fan note is aimed at me and just say, i've never said that Sauron can defeat anyone. I've also never said he could defeat Alucard for that matter
2. Technically, we are still arguing over his manipulation powers compared to WoD
3. It is also worth noting that there is plenty of other things that can be legitimately defended about him. For example, his military tactics, i noticed you've stopped going on about the "flaws" in that


And posion fish, it is possible that Sauron, you know, is good and hard to beat. Sure he can't defeat anything of course, but you can't blame people for defending people any more you can blame people for defending Alucard, or the LK, or Voldmort


form
EE

[Selrahc]

And i was talking about religions cause in the Thirty Year War, Charles V did go to the war because of religion (the states breaking off was a separate issue) It was a religious war at first, it warped into a political war in the end but the cause was basically religious

Uh.... again what you have just said is nonsense.

Charles V was dead long before the Thirty Years war. He dies in 1558, and the Thirty Years War starts in 1618.

For the causes of the actual thirty years war however, the causes were both political and religious, and gradually became more political. It was not however, a case of the catholic church playing the catholic factions like pawns. And it ended up as a conflict between Spain and France, the two biggest Catholic powers!

[Oslecamo]

Evilelititst, would you then claim we're all pawns of capitalism and/or the internet nowadays?

[EvilElitest]

Evilelititst, would you then claim we're all pawns of capitalism and/or the internet nowadays?

yep
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

I'm saying that Sauron is a mediocre at best villain, in terms of power and what he can do. See the vs. Sauron threads for the plethora of scarier things out there as some of my examples.

[EvilElitest]

I'm saying that Sauron is a mediocre at beast villain, in terms of power and what he can do. See the vs. Sauron threads for the plethora of scarier things out there as some of my examples.

Except on that in that thread there are never any named reasons, it is just listing of people you think could win. What makes him mediocre? He isn't genre saavy but tends to be smarter than most villains
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

Being smarter then most ≠ better. It just means one isn't as foolish.

My largest complaint of him? The black and white physical creation of evil that he's supposed to represent. His goals are domination. That's plain, simple. He may go about it in some silly gambit fashion, or chuck his forces around, but all in all, he's mediocre because he's essentially simple.

[EvilElitest]

Being smarter then most ≠ better. It just means one isn't as foolish.

My largest complaint of him? The black and white physical creation of evil that he's supposed to represent. His goals are domination. That's plan, simple. He may go about it in some silly gambit fashion, or chuck his forces around, but all in all, he's mediocre because he's essentially simple.
Wait, in more detail, what makes him wrong? He wasn't to dominate the world to make it totally lawful and consistent.
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

I listed my largest complaint was because he was simple. I don't need to give more detail then that. Rather, I can't give more detail to that other then repeating myself. Hence my claim of him being a mediocre villain.

As well, in terms of raw power, there is a plethora of people who overshadow him. So, because of both, he doesn't rank all to high.

[EvilElitest]

I listed my largest complaint was because he was simple. I don't need to give more detail then that. Rather, I can't give more detail to that other then repeating myself. Hence my claim of him being a mediocre villain.

As well, in terms of raw power, there is a plethora of people who overshadow him. So, because of both, he doesn't rank all to high.

1. You haven't given any reasons of his simplicity other than "I think it is so" Saying i don't need more detail is just evading the question. What makes him simple
3. Sauron is very powerful and smart, sure he can't defeat everybody but who can? Nether can any villain other Cthulu
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

1. You haven't given any reasons of his simplicity other than "I think it is so" Saying i don't need more detail is just evading the question. What makes him simple
3. Sauron is very powerful and smart, sure he can't defeat everybody but who can? Nether can any villain other Cthulu
from
EE

where is 2?

anyway

1. I have given a reason for his simplicity, you missed it. Let me re-quote

The black and white physical creation of evil that he's supposed to represent. His goals are domination. That's plain, simple. He may go about it in some silly gambit fashion, or chuck his forces around, but all in all, he's mediocre because he's essentially simple.

To further explain. A. He's clearly defined as "evil". I dislike such black and white context.
B. His goal is total domination. That's another act of simplicity.
C. His reason for doing so? Evil.

And thus, that makes him simply explained.

3. Actually, Cthullhu can be defeated by quite a few things as well. Not to mention most people gravely misinterpret the few stories about him.

[EvilElitest]

where is 2?

there is no 2.


anyway

1. I have given a reason for his simplicity, you missed it. Let me re-quote


To further explain. A. He's clearly defined as "evil". I dislike such black and white context.
B. His goal is total domination. That's another act of simplicity.
C. His reason for doing so? Evil.

Except there is a reason and a goal
Goal
Dominate the world and make everything follow a totally lawful order

Reason

As one of the natural creators, he believes that the world needs to run on rules and laws, that everything needs to be controlled. Considering he helped create the rules, it is pretty easy to understand. I mean he is inhuman



3. Actually, Cthullhu can be defeated by quite a few things as well. Not to mention most people gravely misinterpret the few stories about him.
How so?
from
EE

[warty goblin]

where is 2?

anyway

1. I have given a reason for his simplicity, you missed it. Let me re-quote


To further explain. A. He's clearly defined as "evil". I dislike such black and white context.
B. His goal is total domination. That's another act of simplicity.
C. His reason for doing so? Evil.

And thus, that makes him simply explained.

3. Actually, Cthullhu can be defeated by quite a few things as well. Not to mention most people gravely misinterpret the few stories about him.

Sauron is, by LOTR, the most evil being in the cosmos yes. He is not however wholly evil, merely as evil as currently exists. He is also following a rather subtle progression found throughout Tolkien about the danger of obsession, in that being obsessed leads to evil almost without fail. Sauron, being consumed for the desire for control and order, becomes evil, he does not start out that way, and in fact as his obsession grows he becomes more and more evil. There is nothing, even in Tolkien, inherently wrong with order and control, that is after all exactly what Aragorn restores. I think you rather have it backwards, he is evil because his goal is total domination in order to bring order to the world. The desire and obsession come before the evil here, not the other way around.

Take another example, Frodo's obsession with and consumption by the Ring. Frodo never becomes evil, but the whole world is nearly doomed because of it. Feanor's obsession with the Silmarils has similarly disasterous consequences, as indeed does Morgoth's.

To me anyways, this is far more complex and interesting than the 'troubled childhood' brand of villian, since it provides a consistant explanation for evil, allows us to understand evil and its origins and to a certain degree sympathize with them, but still keeps it clear that evil is a choice, and not merely a by-product of crappy living conditions. It also leaves the heroes always open to being corrupted, since their very obsession with the destruction of evil puts them at risk of becoming evil. It is a world view that is, at least to my eyes, plagued by far more doubt and uncertainty and a lot greater risk. This is of course a theme in more than just LOTR, but in LOTR it is more gracefully integrated into the cosmology rather than simply being trotted out when convenient for the narrative and the grinding of the author's axe.

[EvilElitest]

It is also interesting when you consider Tolkien's moral ideals,


"Nothing is born evil, even Sauron was not so"
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

Fair enough, WG. I've largely avoided the later works for LotR besides the hobbit and the trilogy itself, largely out of personal preference. So my frame of personal reference comes from that. This doesn't change my view of him as a simple villain, be it his choices stemming from domination to evil or evil to domination. I'm not saying he's close to a troubled childhood villain either. It's the fact that evil as a concept is there that bothers me.

In terms of Cthullhu, there have only been (I believe) 3 stories actually featuring our star prophet here. Suffice to say they don't explain a whole lot. People just happen to assume Cthullhu is an end all.

[EvilElitest]

1. Fair enough poison, but you can't call him mediocre based on personal preference
2. What can defeat Cthulu then?
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

1. Actually, I can call him mediocre based on personal preference. Now as to that meaning much? One really can't say. In terms of power he is mediocre based on all the previous threads where it's been discussed what he can do. This thread for instance in his comparison to Al. Along with numerous other subjects from the "vs sauron thread" from awhile back(Exalted, Nauseverse, Gurren Lagann, etc.).

What that means is, coming from a scale that I'm used to, he is considered mediocre(In terms of power, not in terms of how I like my villains) because he's fighting over a world. It's his setting and his limitations within the setting that limit him vs. other settings. That's all it means in that matter.

2. A fair number of god killers/prophet killers what have you. My main comment with Cthullhu is that he's more misunderstood rather then just "O R'yleh 1d4 investigators, delicious" that he's made out to be.

[EvilElitest]

1. Actually, I can call him mediocre based on personal preference. Now as to that meaning much? One really can't say. In terms of power he is mediocre based on all the previous threads where it's been discussed what he can do. This thread for instance in his comparison to Al. Along with numerous other subjects from the "vs sauron thread" from awhile back(Exalted, Nauseverse, Gurren Lagann, etc.).

What that means is, coming from a scale that I'm used to, he is considered mediocre(In terms of power, not in terms of how I like my villains) because he's fighting over a world. It's his setting and his limitations within the setting that limit him vs. other settings. That's all it means in that matter.

Except in order to prove him weaker in those worlds you need to have a detailed thread. He might be weaker yes, but you need detailed debate, as seen from the many vs. Sauron thread

As for alcuard, well nether side has made any real conclusive points



2. A fair number of god killers/prophet killers what have you. My main comment with Cthullhu is that he's more misunderstood rather then just "O R'yleh 1d4 investigators, delicious" that he's made out to be.
Ok, but can he be defeated? He could defeat Sauron, Alcuard and LK right?

[Poison_Fish]

1. And a lot of them have been discussed with a few details. You can look over the thread again. For the majority of worlds, it's not even worth the effort in setting it up, as it's like "ant vs. whale". Why would you waste web space on it?

2. I think we just assume he can. For a large part of it, we really just don't know what cthullhu can do. I'm sure I'll get some dislike for this, and I consider myself a fan of Lovecraft, but he does get out cheaply by summing up some of the beings in his stories as "And he was so crazy powerful, you'd go insane even trying to comprehend how crazy powerful he was". Also, correct me if I'm wrong lovecraft fans, I'm going off readings from 5 years ago and memory, as I don't have the time to go in depth to check on them.

[EvilElitest]

1. And a lot of them have been discussed with a few details. You can look over the thread again. For the majority of worlds, it's not even worth the effort in setting it up, as it's like "ant vs. whale". Why would you waste web space on it?

Because nothing is proved by simple saying it is so, i can just as easily say Sauron is better without backing up those claims.


2. I think we just assume he can. For a large part of it, we really just don't know what cthullhu can do. I'm sure I'll get some dislike for this, and I consider myself a fan of Lovecraft, but he does get out cheaply by summing up some of the beings in his stories as "And he was so crazy powerful, you'd go insane even trying to comprehend how crazy powerful he was". Also, correct me if I'm wrong lovecraft fans, I'm going off readings from 5 years ago and memory, as I don't have the time to go in depth to check on them.

Basically, that makes him unbeatable. And thus totally unsuited to vs. threads
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

1. Again, I directed you to the threads where it was discussed. If you wish to counter those ones, I suggest you do so. I'm just merely echoing those sentiments. I have no obligation to prove the 30,000 universes that could do it because this is not that thread nor is that a wise use of time. Don't ask me to prove a generality. Suffice to say, I'm not simply saying so. Please look beyond a thread.

2. No, it makes him an unknown. But invoking a "We don't know, thus he wins" is about as logical as air bud.

Which, by the way, isn't logical.

But yes, I think the majority of lovecraft is unsuitable for vs. threads because it's hard to get solid facts.

[EvilElitest]

1. Again, I directed you to the threads where it was discussed. If you wish to counter those ones, I suggest you do so. I'm just merely echoing those sentiments. I have no obligation to prove the 30,000 universes that could do it because this is not that thread nor is that a wise use of time. Don't ask me to prove a generality. Suffice to say, I'm not simply saying so. Please look beyond a thread.

I was on those threads as you will recall, and argued on most of those. Some are more powerful than Sauron yes, but it requires argument



2. No, it makes him an unknown. But invoking a "We don't know, thus he wins" is about as logical as air bud.

Which, by the way, isn't logical.

But yes, I think the majority of lovecraft is unsuitable for vs. threads because it's hard to get solid facts.

But isn't his presence a "Blow your mind" concept?
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

EE, not everything requires argument everywhere. If you wish to continue them, please do so elsewhere. I was stating a generality that even you yourself are accepting. To argue over every point is a waste of time.

[EvilElitest]

EE, not everything requires argument everywhere. If you wish to continue them, please do so elsewhere. I was stating a generality that even you yourself are accepting. To argue over every point is a waste of time.

To have truth in any statement, you need to argue it. Sure it was a generation but as i said then and i say now, you need arguments to prove anything. That being said, i'm fine not going into detail, but we can make general statements
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

EE, I don't have to prove it here. If both of us can accept the generality of the statement: There are a lot of things that can beat up guy A. Then there is nothing to argue about other then for the sake of arguing.

If you don't accept it, then please go back to the thread and challenge some of those universes.

[EvilElitest]

EE, I don't have to prove it here. If both of us can accept the generality of the statement: There are a lot of things that can beat up guy A. Then there is nothing to argue about other then for the sake of arguing.

If you don't accept it, then please go back to the thread and challenge some of those universes.

1. I've already addressed the universes if we are thinking of the same threads
2. Except that doesn't make somebody medocer, not his supports radical for arguing for him
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

EE, I think you missed what I said. I'm operating on two different mediocrities here. One is my own personal opinion and dislike for Sauron I gave above. I've stated that doesn't hold much of a place other then my opinion.

The other is in terms of his power, which is in reference to the large number of things above and below him. In the scale of my experiences with media, he is also mediocre in this sense.

[Rutee]

He did set up a web of operatives during the Third age, during the last alliance he didn't have time to rally all of his forces and was attacked by extremely prepared and determined foe. He failed. So the next time, he got a massive spy web ready, as seen in the third age. He didn't integrate into a society in the third age, there was no need too.
I stand corrected; He just needs about 3000 years to set up his infrastructure, which still isn't that hot.

Contrast with 500 years to set up a lasting governance, in a world formerly dominated by people who outright ruled, like Sauron, but with more raw power. Though to be fair, disbelief can't kick Sauron's ass.


Anyways, howe about this. We both have countries. i invade you. You destroy my entire army, i destroy half of your population, half your army, and most of you land. I can replace my troop no problem at all, you can't. So it is technically your victory, but you only won a battle, not a war
Except Sauron /did/ lose the war. A Pyrrhic victory for the elves, but he did lose the war.


So in WoD, is all science really magic?
YES! That's what me and WT have been saying! Science is magic that works because people believe it works!


I don't belive you made that clear, what do you mean by In mage? Do you mine oWoD is in fact Mage? Or something else? are the mages the only ones with this super control? Is mage a specific game within WoD?
Mage is a specific game within the WoD. The various supernatural games are mutually exclusive, fluff-wise. In Vampire, Vampires rules the world. In Werewolf, the Wyrm controls much of the Umbra, since he was originally conceived as their personal enemy. In Mage, Mages rule the world. Etc, etc.



interesting. But how did they obtain this control? Years of integration?
No, years of leading humanity by the nose and being solely responsible for every major technological discovery.


In his lands he had a complete and total domination without even bothering with the pretense of secrecy.
He has a quarter of a continent under his control, at best. The rest of the continent hates him and seeks to kill him. The technocracy has the entire world, and parts of worlds beyond. And people /can't/ get angry at them and want to kick their masses, because they don't know they exist. Do you not understand why ruling through puppets is more effective then ruling in person?


So does he control their minds, does he dominate their will, what?
I'm not really sure. I never read the various splat books for Wyrm factions, like the somewhat controversial Black Spiral Dancers rules, or the Book of Madness for Nephandi, because they're not very interesting to me as antagonists.


Except there domination of humanity seems to be aided by other fractions who they compete with. It isn't a total dictatorship
It's still more then Sauron ever got, and from a much more secure position.



what about the loyal Catholics who stuck with the Church?
I'm not going to debate history with you further until you actually go and learn about it. I do not have the inclination to instruct you on medieval European history for free.


1. well i'm just going to assume the fan note is aimed at me and just say, i've never said that Sauron can defeat anyone. I've also never said he could defeat Alucard for that matter
2. Technically, we are still arguing over his manipulation powers compared to WoD
3. It is also worth noting that there is plenty of other things that can be legitimately defended about him. For example, his military tactics, i noticed you've stopped going on about the "flaws" in that
1. Actually, it was aimed at the guy I was quoting. Go fig.
2. Technically nothing; I'm showing you that he's beaten in his remaining specialization. He is not superlative at anything (If you say tactics, he's not even up to Zhuge Liang, and he was /real/...) And the Technocracy isn't as good as factions in other fiction (Though to be fair, Scion and Exalted are quite OTT)
3. Nobody has botherred expounding his tactics in the Last Alliance, which is where I suspect he's a fragging moron.


1. I've already addressed the universes if we are thinking of the same threads
Your arguments generally come down to "He's superlative because Tolkien says so", never addressing that other universes tackle bigger, better baddies with more elan.

[WalkingTarget]

@Poison_Fish: Out of curiosity, who are some of your favorite villains? I don't think that I've been firmly in a "Sauron wins" faction since the vs. Voldemort thread, but I still like him as a villain. As WG said, he's part of the natural progression of Tolkien's setting and works well within the mythological/heroic tradition in use there (in my opinion, he's the best type of villain in that context, but then again, I've been a mythology nerd since well before I got into Fantasy literature). There's no moral ambiguity in the killing of Medusa or Grendel or a medieval dragon. It's not a feature of the format. I recognize your objections to the good/evil dynamic present in the books, but I'm curious as to your preferences otherwise.

Also, on Cthulhu, I'm in agreement that Lovecraftian creations are largely unsuitable for vs. threads. The point as I understood it isn't that they are "so crazy powerful that you go crazy trying to understand how powerful they are" but it was rather that "the fact that they exist is difficult for the human mind to grasp". They could have all the inherent power of a kitten on Valium, but having to try to shoehorn the fact of their existence into your mindset of how the world functions is what is damaging (although, most of them can physically harm you anyway, but that's not why the characters go mad). At least, that's my interpretation of Lovecraft.

@Rutee: Unfortunately (unless there's a bunch of detail in the History of Middle-Earth series, which I haven't read), there isn't much detail provided on tactical matters during the War of the Last Alliance. We know that there was a major battle (or series of battles) on the Battle Plain (Dagorlad) where the Dead Marshes are in the Third Age. The Alliance forces didn't fully cooperate at first (some factions wouldn't place themselves under orders from Gil-galad, so there wasn't a unified strategy there for some time) and it took several months before they managed to take the Black Gate. After that, it's seven years of siege at Barad-dur with fighting occurring all the way over to Mount Doom (nothing is mentioned of fighting getting there, but the land itself doesn't lend itself to being highly defensible beyond it's natural unpleasantness). Sauron's forces would drop things from high on the Tower onto the Alliance forces (as Anarion was killed by a falling stone), but we don't know much else as to the nature of the fighting. The descriptions we get really seem to indicate it's mostly a case of overwhelming force on the side of the Alliance for once.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Going off Wiki's information on the Big C, don't know how reliable it is but I've never been able to get my hands on any actual stories by Lovecraft, but he isn't exactly very high on the pecking order of beings in Lovecraft's world. Azathoth for is considered much more powerful...or un-understandable as WT would put it.

[WalkingTarget]

Going off Wiki's information on the Big C, don't know how reliable it is but I've never been able to get my hands on any actual stories by Lovecraft, but he isn't exactly very high on the pecking order of beings in Lovecraft's world. Azathoth for is considered much more powerful...or un-understandable as WT would put it.

Cthulhu has a major cult on earth (or rather, a large number of cults) that have cropped up due to the influences his dreams have on people. He's one of the few "major" Lovecraftian beings to have an actual, physical presence on Earth (not simply being present in some weird hyper-dimensional sense). Most significant, though, is the fact that August Derleth latched onto the Big C as being important (he's the one that coined the term "Cthulhu Mythos" where Lovecraft himself called his writing involving these made-up beings "Yog-Sothothery"). Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, and Shub-Niggurath are the heavy hitters, as it were, but they don't actually get any screen time. Cthulhu actually shows up in his debut story. BTW, there's a link to a site with "The Call of Cthulhu" at the bottom of his wikipedia page. He's mentioned in passing in a few other stories, but that's the only one with him actually in it.

[GoC]

1. Um, he burned the super elf dude up with a touch, we know how that works. however i don't know if Alucard would even care
2. Um, he dominated Saurman's mind in an instant, he almost blew Pippin's mind from non hostile touch from a far distance through a lesser seeing stone, the Nazgul who is far weaker than he is pulled off some cool stunts and his eye can pierce will
3. No he brought the ring with him (according to quote providing by walking target) from Numenor.
4. He literally made his body and assumed spirit form in the third age. The real question is, can he even kill Alucard?
1. We don't know how it works so we can't tell who it works on. Is it a disintegrate effect or a fire one? Would it work on creatures highly resistant to fire? How often can he use it? The last appears to be once per combat but the other two...
2. "In an instant"? Evidence for this is needed. There two additional factors in the Palantir: Pippin wasn't exactly strong-willed (Aragorn managed to have a will-fight with Sauron) and he was using a Palantir. Sauron was unable to do anything near instant mental domination in the Silmarillion, he had to use diplomacy on the king of Numenor
3. Um... that what I said. I was pointing out that sometimes he can bring the ring with him and other times he can't.
4. Why do you phrase things like we disagree when we're agreeing?


Sauron, with his ability to go incorporeal when his body is broken, managed to get out from under the continent.
However in one of the two times he was killed he was unable to take the ring with him. This said two kills should be enough. In one Sauron takes the ring with him and regenerates a few years later, in the next he leaves the ring behind which I think should count for a loss.


"And he was so crazy powerful, you'd go insane even trying to comprehend how crazy powerful he was"
Obviously whoever said that had never studied the higher orders of infinity or the Wainer Hierarchy.:smallamused:

WT: What's your guess on the sizes of the various armies in the Silmarillion?
There appears to by some inconsistancy because a few thousand men arrive and in 60 years they're a major force in the battle against Morgoth. The ruler of the hidden city builds up an army for 300 years, then sends all of the resulting 10,000 men and the battle for middle earth goes from "hopeless" to "we've got a chance".
Then later on there's millions of orcs.

[EvilElitest]

I stand corrected; He just needs about 3000 years to set up his infrastructure, which still isn't that hot.

Contrast with 500 years to set up a lasting governance, in a world formerly dominated by people who outright ruled, like Sauron, but with more raw power. Though to be fair, disbelief can't kick Sauron's ass.

1. to set up the infrastructure? No. It took 3,000 years to do that an rally his many armies, destroyed half of his enemies, caused disunity, and dominated other lands. He was in business in like a few hundred years
2. What?
3. Didn't oWoD take you know, the entire history of humanity to obtain the position they are in now


Except Sauron /did/ lose the war. A Pyrrhic victory for the elves, but he did lose the war.
Sure, it is an attacking force however, not a major enough deal for Sauron to change his way of attacking. Why? Well Sauron can just build another army and attack again.


YES! That's what me and WT have been saying! Science is magic that works because people believe it works!

I can see a few flaws in that concept


Mage is a specific game within the WoD. The various supernatural games are mutually exclusive, fluff-wise. In Vampire, Vampires rules the world. In Werewolf, the Wyrm controls much of the Umbra, since he was originally conceived as their personal enemy. In Mage, Mages rule the world. Etc, etc.

So every edition is a totally different world? And this is in oWoD, cause everything is different in nWoD. Ok, that i a lot clearer


No, years of leading humanity by the nose and being solely responsible for every major technological discovery.

you didn't explain how they pulled that off, i'm guesting integration. What tatics?



He has a quarter of a continent under his control, at best. The rest of the continent hates him and seeks to kill him. The technocracy has the entire world, and parts of worlds beyond. And people /can't/ get angry at them and want to kick their masses, because they don't know they exist. Do you not understand why ruling through puppets is more effective then ruling in person?
1. Sauron has more like 2/3 of the world, maybe 1/2. He owns Mordor, the entire massive land of the Easter, the Massive lands of the South, the two largest mountain ranges in the north, along with a few other mountains (Mt. Gundibad, Mt. Gram), 3/4 of the greatest forest in the world, Angmar, a good deal of Anor, relative control over the north lands (lone lands, Troll Shaws ect), Isengard, Southern Gondor, Ithlillin, Eastern Gondor, Lands North of Mordor, the Lonely Mountain, and in the second age he dominated almost all of the world (the Dark Days i believe). Of hte land that is left, most of it is ether owned by no body (The plains to the west of Isengard) hostile to everybody (Old Forest) or divided and small.
2. Ruling in puppets is effective, but not perfect, you need to rely on the puppets. The techno guys are good, but should the traditionalists destroy their control, hinder their puppets or something like that (in fighting, rebellion, ect) they loose everything, they rely on this secrecy to rule. Sauron doesn't need that



I'm not really sure. I never read the various splat books for Wyrm factions, like the somewhat controversial Black Spiral Dancers rules, or the Book of Madness for Nephandi, because they're not very interesting to me as antagonists.

shrug

It's still more then Sauron ever got, and from a much more secure position.

In his own lands, Sauron didn't need to resort to secrecy. Debatable


I'm not going to debate history with you further until you actually go and learn about it. I do not have the inclination to instruct you on medieval European history for free.
And you call me arrogant. I major in history, and simply saying that i know nothing when you demonstrate nothing in return is nothing more than hypocrisy


1. Actually, it was aimed at the guy I was quoting. Go fig.
2. Technically nothing; I'm showing you that he's beaten in his remaining specialization. He is not superlative at anything (If you say tactics, he's not even up to Zhuge Liang, and he was /real/...) And the Technocracy isn't as good as factions in other fiction (Though to be fair, Scion and Exalted are quite OTT)
3. Nobody has botherred expounding his tactics in the Last Alliance, which is where I suspect he's a fragging moron.
1. Fair enough
2a) you stoped arguing the tactics, after being countered you dropped the point
2b) you've given information, not proven. It is possible, (through the Technocracy has the advantage of more time, and modern understanding, as well as only having to dominate humans)
3. And we have no details of any of his tactical mistakes. Lee lost at Gettysburg, that doesn't make him a freaking moron (through the charge wasn't a good move). you need to name examples of his tactical mistakes



Your arguments generally come down to "He's superlative because Tolkien says so", never addressing that other universes tackle bigger, better baddies with more elan.
And same goes for opposing arguments, hence the need to specifics.




1. We don't know how it works so we can't tell who it works on. Is it a disintegrate effect or a fire one? Would it work on creatures highly resistant to fire? How often can he use it? The last appears to be once per combat but the other two...
2. "In an instant"? Evidence for this is needed. There two additional factors in the Palantir: Pippin wasn't exactly strong-willed (Aragorn managed to have a will-fight with Sauron) and he was using a Palantir. Sauron was unable to do anything near instant mental domination in the Silmarillion, he had to use diplomacy on the king of Numenor
[QUOTE]
3. Um... that what I said. I was pointing out that sometimes he can bring the ring with him and other times he can't.

1. Why wouldn't it? The Elf dudes burned to a ashes when he was touched, that indicates it is super hot fire. Creature immune to fire i would imagine would be immune.
2.A) Pippin, and all hobbits are rather strong willed, as well as resistant to evilness
B) Aragorn was the rightful owner of the Seeing Stone, hence massive advantage, it belonged to him. And even he has a lot of trouble
C) in the Simarillion he fought another Divine being, so mental domination isn't the question (corruption takes longer)
D) do we know which one he used?
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

2. "In an instant"? Evidence for this is needed. There two additional factors in the Palantir: Pippin wasn't exactly strong-willed (Aragorn managed to have a will-fight with Sauron) and he was using a Palantir. Sauron was unable to do anything near instant mental domination in the Silmarillion, he had to use diplomacy on the king of Numenor

Saruman was on his way to falling before he started using the Palantir. He'd been studying Ringlore for long enough that Sauron's perspective began to make sense to him ("The world needs Order, and I'm the guy to do it!"). This can be viewed as Sauron "corrupting" him, but it wasn't due to direct mental influence at first. As for Aragorn, he had the whole "rightful owner" thing going for him with the Palantir standoff (specifically stated to be the reason he pulled off a win there).


However in one of the two times he was killed he was unable to take the ring with him. This said two kills should be enough. In one Sauron takes the ring with him and regenerates a few years later, in the next he leaves the ring behind which I think should count for a loss.

My reading of this is that, in-setting, he couldn't take the Ring with him the second time because Isildur had already taken physical possession of it. Meta-reason is that the story demands it. It always sounded to me that Tolkien needed a way for Sauron to not ever leave the Ring unattended but still have it with him after he "died" in Numenor so he essentially said "a wizard did it". That's my opinion, but it's still the author's stance on the issue.


WT: What's your guess on the sizes of the various armies in the Silmarillion?
There appears to by some inconsistancy because a few thousand men arrive and in 60 years they're a major force in the battle against Morgoth. The ruler of the hidden city builds up an army for 300 years, then sends all of the resulting 10,000 men and the battle for middle earth goes from "hopeless" to "we've got a chance".
Then later on there's millions of orcs.

I don't have my books with me, and won't be back near them for a few days, so I couldn't even begin to look for firm numbers. Also, I'm by no means an expert (or even an amateur) on military strategy/army sizes so I wouldn't want to take a guess at this. I'm good with names and narratives, but while I could give you a pretty good rundown of the Illiad, I'd have to look up the number of ships/men each king brought with him.

[GoC]

1. We don't know how it works so we can't tell who it works on. Is it a disintegrate effect or a fire one? Would it work on creatures highly resistant to fire? How often can he use it? The last appears to be once per combat but the other two...
2. "In an instant"? Evidence for this is needed. There two additional factors in the Palantir: Pippin wasn't exactly strong-willed (Aragorn managed to have a will-fight with Sauron) and he was using a Palantir. Sauron was unable to do anything near instant mental domination in the Silmarillion, he had to use diplomacy on the king of Numenor
3. Um... that's what I said. I was pointing out that sometimes he can bring the ring with him and other times he can't.

1. Why wouldn't it? The Elf dudes burned to a ashes when he was touched, that indicates it is super hot fire. Creature immune to fire i would imagine would be immune.
2.A) Pippin, and all hobbits are rather strong willed, as well as resistant to evilness
B) Aragorn was the rightful owner of the Seeing Stone, hence massive advantage, it belonged to him. And even he has a lot of trouble
C) in the Simarillion he fought another Divine being, so mental domination isn't the question (corruption takes longer)
D) do we know which one he used?
from
EE

1. Would Superman be immune? What about a human in an asbestos suit? Is it the 900 degrees celsius needed to burn a corpse? I'd love to know roughly where this burning to ashes bit is found.
2. Resistant to evil? Yes. Strong willed? No.
Conceded regarding Aragorn.
Not sure what you meant by C and D.

[Rutee]

1. to set up the infrastructure? No. It took 3,000 years to do that an rally his many armies, destroyed half of his enemies, caused disunity, and dominated other lands. He was in business in like a few hundred years
2. What?
3. Didn't oWoD take you know, the entire history of humanity to obtain the position they are in now
1. 3000 years and still not in even covert control of one continent. Seriously, look at the situation.
2. Paradox. WT mentioned it before; Most magic faces a backlash when done in front of ordinary mortals, because the collective disbelief of humanity will smack down the mage for trying to mess with reality.
3. The Technocracy traces its roots back that far, yes, and they have legitimate claims to having existed for about 3000 years. Thing is, they didn't unify and move to rule the world until the Renaissance period or so. Honestly, they were in charge within 200 years or so, under the banner of the Order of Reason. The current org. chart has been around for 100 years, with the defection of the Sons of Ether marking the last major change in their setup; THe organization itself has been around for 500 years, with some fat-trimming occurring in the 1700s or so as they dropped a few groups.


Sure, it is an attacking force however, not a major enough deal for Sauron to change his way of attacking. Why? Well Sauron can just build another army and attack again.
I'm going to say this one last time; Sauron lost to a conventional military force. Twice. One can not possibly say that he has no reason to change his methodology. Especially considerring he managed to figure it out after round /2/.



I can see a few flaws in that concept
...In the real world? Sure, it's not actually, factually true. It's true in the World of Darkness. You can't possibly find a flaw in it without actually studying the setting, because nothing we've given indicates one. It's pretty self-consistent within the setting too.



So every edition is a totally different world?
Yep. There /is/ an overarching metaplot, sorta, but it's mostly "Vampire is more true then everything else", and isn't really expounded on within the games. It doesn't factor in at all until the novels.



you didn't explain how they pulled that off, i'm guesting integration. What tatics?
You don't seem to understand what those words mean. Tactics are typically one's short term plan, and change to suit the situation, to advance one's strategy, which is the overall plan. Integration is /not the case/. By and large, the Technocracy exists completely seperate from the institutions of the real world, when it's not using them as a front. The short of it is, the Technocracy champions all real innovations, period. After time testing, refining, and whatnot (Which can take many, many years), and when the Technocracy is comfortable with the Masses having it, they typically will fake some new 'experiments' and 'redo' the testing and refining phrase in the public's eye, so that it looks like it's being developed, and then released. That is, the Technocracy was in space at the turn of the century; It was not until the 1950s or so that they allowed enough of their research to be shown to the masses that Sleeper society could achieve space flight. The only time that process isn't quite emulated in scientific circles is when a Tradition Mage (almost always a Son of Ether) did it. See: Quantum Physics, Dark Matter Theory.

Recruiting tends to involve finding logically-minded people whom are on the verge of having their Avatar (The part of the soul that allows for the casting of magic) to awaken, and bringing them intot he fold.


1. Sauron has more like 2/3 of the world, maybe 1/2. He owns Mordor, the entire massive land of the Easter, the Massive lands of the South, the two largest mountain ranges in the north, along with a few other mountains (Mt. Gundibad, Mt. Gram), 3/4 of the greatest forest in the world, Angmar, a good deal of Anor, relative control over the north lands (lone lands, Troll Shaws ect), Isengard, Southern Gondor, Ithlillin, Eastern Gondor, Lands North of Mordor, the Lonely Mountain, and in the second age he dominated almost all of the world (the Dark Days i believe). Of hte land that is left, most of it is ether owned by no body (The plains to the west of Isengard) hostile to everybody (Old Forest) or divided and small.
2. Ruling in puppets is effective, but not perfect, you need to rely on the puppets. The techno guys are good, but should the traditionalists destroy their control, hinder their puppets or something like that (in fighting, rebellion, ect) they loose everything, they rely on this secrecy to rule. Sauron doesn't need that
1. ...Okay, my mistake. He owns 2/3rds of a continent. Such a significant improvement compared to lordship over an entire planet, particularly a planet that's significantly more advanced.
2. Sauron didn't rule over the world, period. I would contend that he did need that. notwithstanding that the Tradition Mages don't usually achieve major victories in shaking up the Technocracy's rule.



In his own lands, Sauron didn't need to resort to secrecy. Debatable
This is part of why I think you need a history check. Didn't /need/ to resort to secrecy? Technically, nobody does, but it generally helps.



And you call me arrogant. I major in history, and simply saying that i know nothing when you demonstrate nothing in return is nothing more than hypocrisy
Bull. You don't major in history. Notwithstanding your very poor grasp of it, one doesn't major in history; One majors in a very small subsection of it. Similarly, your powers of analysis, and constant insistence that ruling overtly is superior (in a measure of strict effectiveness for the ruler himself) also lead me to disbelieve you. Quite frankly, I do not have the inclination to serve as your professor, least of all for free.


1. Fair enough
2a) you stoped arguing the tactics, after being countered you dropped the point
2b) you've given information, not proven. It is possible, (through the Technocracy has the advantage of more time, and modern understanding, as well as only having to dominate humans)
3. And we have no details of any of his tactical mistakes. Lee lost at Gettysburg, that doesn't make him a freaking moron (through the charge wasn't a good move). you need to name examples of his tactical mistakes
2a: No, I stopped being given information. Seriously, read the posts you quote. We STILL have nothing to prove that Sauron's tactics are good, because he's hardly ever been at the front himself. Further, I'm never questioned his strategy, which is literally all that has been demonstrated to be good, in this regard.
2b: They don't have to only dominate humans. They had to take out the Traditions first, and most elder Magi vastly outstrip Sauron in terms of reality warping, /especially/ in the days before the Renaissance, when they weren't afflicted by Paradox. Notwithstanding that they /still fight superhuman beings/. That Vampires and Werewolves aren't organized in Mage does not mean they're not there, and still don't have to be klled. That's almost the entire point of the division of Void Engineers that remains on Earth.

And seriously, read the articles we post. The Technocracy hasn't been actually seeking to conquer for more then 500 years, and they were really god damn successful in this time period. The 5000 years comment from earlier mostly especially applies to Vampires.
3. That's correct, we have no information on Sauron's Tactics whatsoever, so one can not verify that they are good.



And same goes for opposing arguments, hence the need to specifics.
...We use specifics.

[WalkingTarget]

1. to set up the infrastructure? No. It took 3,000 years to do that an rally his many armies, destroyed half of his enemies, caused disunity, and dominated other lands. He was in business in like a few hundred years
2. What?
3. Didn't oWoD take you know, the entire history of humanity to obtain the position they are in now

1. Yeah, most of his followers (i.e. everybody in, essentially, the rest of the world besides the good guys) worship him as their god-king. Him showing up at all pretty much gets them into line. Internal infrastructure might take a while, but fanatics can get organized quickly if they need to.
3. Technocracy got started in the 14th Century or so. Pick some time in the interim where you feel that "science" became a dominate way of thinking and that's how long it took them to gain their position.


I can see a few flaws in that concept

Such as? They want to enlighten the masses. The fact that they've managed to convince people that science works means that now anybody can use that version of magic. You want to keep ice handy? If you're a Mage who can use the sphere of Forces, you can just use magic to pull the heat away from some water. The Technocracy made it so that refrigerators work for anybody.


So every edition is a totally different world? And this is in oWoD, cause everything is different in nWoD. Ok, that i a lot clearer

Yeah, the oWoD games were independent, but were similar enough that a GM could borrow things and mix them up, but the fluff in the rule books took each as a separate setting.


you didn't explain how they pulled that off, i'm guesting integration. What tatics?

They started coming up with scientific explanations for phenomena and started publishing them. Their reasons made sense, so people started to believe them. Real-life example/parallel: lets say that the person that discovered that if you spun a magnet near a coil of wire you could produce a current was a Mage. He can create an electrical current in the wire at any point, but when he's demonstrating it for people he only does so when he's also rotating a magnet nearby. People are then convinced that there is a causative relationship between the two and then it begins to really work because of their belief. By the present, enough people believe it that you can't spin a magnet near a loop of wire without inducing a current.


I major in history, and simply saying that i know nothing when you demonstrate nothing in return is nothing more than hypocrisy

Well, you said here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3927636&highlight=school#post3927636) that you were in high school, so unless your school uses different terminology/procedure than any I've dealt with I think "major" is overstating your credentials. :smalltongue:


1. Why wouldn't it? The Elf dudes burned to a ashes when he was touched, that indicates it is super hot fire. Creature immune to fire i would imagine would be immune.

'The Ring misseth, maybe,the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black, and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;' hardly implies that Gil-galad was reduced to ash. He died from the heat, all other detail is speculation.

[Selrahc]

And you call me arrogant. I major in history, and simply saying that i know nothing when you demonstrate nothing in return is nothing more than hypocrisy


And yet you repeatedly make glaring errors that even a modicum of fact checking would clear up. Just in this thread you have claimed that Charles V was a pawn of the pope, when in reality he sacked Rome, and imprisoned the Pope. You've also claimed that Charles V was a major person in the thirty years war, while he was dead about thirty years before it even started!

You've also(In a seperate thread) claimed that the "defeat" of the Spanish armada by the English marked their dominance of Europe coming to an end, and Britains rise as the great maritime power(Despite the fact that Spains navy came back in a few years, and England was still weak as a naval power for more than half a century afterwards. Indeed, in the rule of Charles the II the Dutch fleet sailed up the Thames and stole the English fleet). You've been bewildered by the notion that the Hapsburgs(Who you call the Hatsburgs)Austrian and Spanish branches were not the same, and thought that the Ottomans were the primary cause of the downfall of Hapsburg Spain.

If you major in history, then this can't be your area of expertise. If this is your area of focus, then I've got to say, you're not making a particularly strong showing of yourself!

[Poison_Fish]

Even though it was a less complicated series, I happen to be a bigger fan of the anti-spiral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tengen_Toppa_Gurren_Lagann_antagonists#Ant i-Spiral) as a villain. His goal? No evil in it, just keeping the universe from imploding on itself

I'd come up with more, but I'm rather busy at the moment. Suffice to say WT, the main reason I dislike sauron is largely tied to my dislike of something being "evil" or "good".

[EvilElitest]

My reading of this is that, in-setting, he couldn't take the Ring with him the second time because Isildur had already taken physical possession of it. Meta-reason is that the story demands it. It always sounded to me that Tolkien needed a way for Sauron to not ever leave the Ring unattended but still have it with him after he "died" in Numenor so he essentially said "a wizard did it". That's my opinion, but it's still the author's stance on the issue.
My take on it is that he had lost his first mortal shell, and thus couldn't use his spirit the way he used to


1. Would Superman be immune? What about a human in an asbestos suit? Is it the 900 degrees celsius needed to burn a corpse? I'd love to know roughly where this burning to ashes bit is found.
2. Resistant to evil? Yes. Strong willed? No.
Conceded regarding Aragorn.
Not sure what you meant by C and D.
1. Look up Gil-ad, a crazy super elf, but has no special immunity to fire. As Sauron's body is firery, he is a fire Spirit, i'm going to assume it will work on anything that isn't specially immune to fire. yes, Super mane would be immune. HEnce magic
2. Um, no all hobbits are strong willed, it is kinda established
3. He didn't used mental mind crushing in the Simeratlion because he only fought other divine beings.
4. We don't know how he corrupted the King, i thought he corrupted him and used charisma for everybody else



1. 3000 years and still not in even covert control of one continent. Seriously, look at the situation.
2. Paradox. WT mentioned it before; Most magic faces a backlash when done in front of ordinary mortals, because the collective disbelief of humanity will smack down the mage for trying to mess with reality.
3. The Technocracy traces its roots back that far, yes, and they have legitimate claims to having existed for about 3000 years. Thing is, they didn't unify and move to rule the world until the Renaissance period or so. Honestly, they were in charge within 200 years or so, under the banner of the Order of Reason. The current org. chart has been around for 100 years, with the defection of the Sons of Ether marking the last major change in their setup; THe organization itself has been around for 500 years, with some fat-trimming occurring in the 1700s or so as they dropped a few groups.
3,000 years after a major defeat. Unlike the Techno dudes, Sauron does not have the advantage of already living in their society
2. That is an interesting system
3. Sounds detailed, but they have been living among humans from the start right?



I'm going to say this one last time; Sauron lost to a conventional military force. Twice. One can not possibly say that he has no reason to change his methodology. Especially considerring he managed to figure it out after round /2/.
And i'm going to repeat this one last time, his methods in the Third Age were totally suited to the situation, as both miltary defeats cost his enemies so much they couldn't manage again. He had no need in the third age to change tatics


..In the real world? Sure, it's not actually, factually true. It's true in the World of Darkness. You can't possibly find a flaw in it without actually studying the setting, because nothing we've given indicates one. It's pretty self-consistent within the setting too.
Wait, one important question, is WoD setting at first glance just like the real world with a hidden masquerade who have been controlling humanity all along, or is it different (The South won the Civil war, stuff like that)



Yep. There /is/ an overarching metaplot, sorta, but it's mostly "Vampire is more true then everything else", and isn't really expounded on within the games. It doesn't factor in at all until the novels.

Now what your saying makes a lot more sense, i see your point. With that in mind, the Techno guys control seems a lot more convincing now, i thought the other supernatural were just running around as well



You don't seem to understand what those words mean. Tactics are typically one's short term plan, and change to suit the situation, to advance one's strategy, which is the overall plan. Integration is /not the case/. By and large, the Technocracy exists completely seperate from the institutions of the real world, when it's not using them as a front. The short of it is, the Technocracy champions all real innovations, period. After time testing, refining, and whatnot (Which can take many, many years), and when the Technocracy is comfortable with the Masses having it, they typically will fake some new 'experiments' and 'redo' the testing and refining phrase in the public's eye, so that it looks like it's being developed, and then released. That is, the Technocracy was in space at the turn of the century; It was not until the 1950s or so that they allowed enough of their research to be shown to the masses that Sleeper society could achieve space flight. The only time that process isn't quite emulated in scientific circles is when a Tradition Mage (almost always a Son of Ether) did it. See: Quantum Physics, Dark Matter Theory.

But the Technocracy's goal from the start is to control humanity via integrating into their society and controlling them. They aren't really humans, but they do run things and control the world. They are content as an organization (and correct me if i'm wrong) to dominate humanity to suit their own ends (Something to do with making science absolute and stomping out the traditionalists). Sauron wants order and law over everything in creation. Very different goals. Now could Sauron go into Mage, and take over. I doubt it, unless somebody explain to him what was going on, guns, modern day tech, the way things are run, ect, even then it is a maybe, personally i think Sauron would be screwed if he came into Mage oWoD (if what you say is true) because of the lack of knowledge. However that isn't them being better at corruption or control, that is them having a different goal, different methods, and literally thousands of years of integration I(as in living in secret controlling things) and knowledge advantage over humanity. Their control took a very long time, and still things don't go perfectly, and they aren't totally unitied (I think) and aren't one person.

So it isn't so much as them being better at corruption, it is them using more systematic and longer but apparently more effective in a world they understand.


1. ...Okay, my mistake. He owns 2/3rds of a continent. Such a significant improvement compared to lordship over an entire planet, particularly a planet that's significantly more advanced.
2. Sauron didn't rule over the world, period. I would contend that he did need that. notwithstanding that the Tradition Mages don't usually achieve major victories in shaking up the Technocracy's rule.
1. Well the Tech guys only have to dominate puny humans who are ignorant of their existence.
2. In the areas he did rule his rule was totally absolute, but i see your point



Bull. You don't major in history. Notwithstanding your very poor grasp of it, one doesn't major in history; One majors in a very small subsection of it. Similarly, your powers of analysis, and constant insistence that ruling overtly is superior (in a measure of strict effectiveness for the ruler himself) also lead me to disbelieve you. Quite frankly, I do not have the inclination to serve as your professor, least of all for free.
I don't ask you to serve as professor (by major i mean best subject), i ask you to be a willing debater who will focus on facts



Such as? They want to enlighten the masses. The fact that they've managed to convince people that science works means that now anybody can use that version of magic. You want to keep ice handy? If you're a Mage who can use the sphere of Forces, you can just use magic to pull the heat away from some water. The Technocracy made it so that refrigerators work for anybody.

But wait a second, what about when people didn't understand the science around them? Like during the Black Death, the theory it was God punishing them, or the Jews, or what ever, when it was in fact an illness spread by Rats and Fleas, they didn't know that. If according to what you say that was in fact magic not science, why not just make it a magical illness?




They started coming up with scientific explanations for phenomena and started publishing them. Their reasons made sense, so people started to believe them. Real-life example/parallel: lets say that the person that discovered that if you spun a magnet near a coil of wire you could produce a current was a Mage. He can create an electrical current in the wire at any point, but when he's demonstrating it for people he only does so when he's also rotating a magnet nearby. People are then convinced that there is a causative relationship between the two and then it begins to really work because of their belief. By the present, enough people believe it that you can't spin a magnet near a loop of wire without inducing a current.
what about the nuts (in real life) who deny electricity. or other sciences, you get the idea



'The Ring misseth, maybe,the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black, and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;' hardly implies that Gil-galad was reduced to ash. He died from the heat, all other detail is speculation.
He was destroyed, not killed. Implies lost of body


And yet you repeatedly make glaring errors that even a modicum of fact checking would clear up. Just in this thread you have claimed that Charles V was a pawn of the pope, when in reality he sacked Rome, and imprisoned the Pope. You've also claimed that Charles V was a major person in the thirty years war, while he was dead about thirty years before it even started!
1. If you take orders from somebody, you are a pawn. That is my point. If the Pope told me to find the Holy Grail, and i found it and gave it to him, i'm still working as his pawn.
2. Charles the V was involved with the Thirty year war, correction. Mostly in the religious events that led up to the the war and its eventually cause (It was a religious war at first) and worked for the Pope for a while (helped at the Council of Trent, ect). When working for the Pope he was a pawn. He unintentionally spelled the down fall for his massive empire for not allowing the freedom of religion in Germany/Holland among other things. He was a figure who led to it, in the same way Martin Luther was (we all love the Diet of Worms)


You've also(In a seperate thread) claimed that the "defeat" of the Spanish armada by the English marked their dominance of Europe coming to an end, and Britains rise as the great maritime power(Despite the fact that Spains navy came back in a few years, and England was still weak as a naval power for more than half a century afterwards. Indeed, in the rule of Charles the II the Dutch fleet sailed up the Thames and stole the English fleet). You've been bewildered by the notion that the Hapsburgs(Who you call the Hatsburgs)Austrian and Spanish branches were not the same, and thought that the Ottomans were the primary cause of the downfall of Hapsburg Spain.

1. I stopped arguing that thread because it took derailment to a major level, but if you insist
2. England's rise to power started. Spain as i said, wasn't cripplied, but was hurt, and England remained free and started to rise
3. Um, what about the Hapsburg bewilderment?
4. There was a war with the Ottomans, according to my college level history textbook. Do you want a quote/page number? It said that was a reason for Spanish over spreading their forces.



If you major in history, then this can't be your area of expertise. If this is your area of focus, then I've got to say, you're not making a particularly strong showing of yourself!
It is not, i prefer French Revolution, Imperialism, Middle Ages, American Civil Wars, WWI and before, a little WWII, ect.


from
EE

[warty goblin]

For the record, the exact size of the landmass under Sauron's control is somewhat unclear, as the map simply ends past Udun or thereabouts, but is almost certainly much larger than the portion he does not control. It is also worth noting that much of Middle-Earth has little to no population, and simply isn't worth controlling- Sauron could take it if he wanted to, but for example who the hell actually wants the Emen Muil?

[EvilElitest]

For the record, the exact size of the landmass under Sauron's control is somewhat unclear, as the map simply ends past Udun or thereabouts, but is almost certainly much larger than the portion he does not control. It is also worth noting that much of Middle-Earth has little to no population, and simply isn't worth controlling- Sauron could take it if he wanted to, but for example who the hell actually wants the Emen Muil?

I'm basing this on maps not shown in the LOTR book here, but your right there isn't very much there, but it is still worth having
from
EE

[Rutee]

3,000 years after a major defeat. Unlike the Techno dudes, Sauron does not have the advantage of already living in their society
2. That is an interesting system
3. Sounds detailed, but they have been living among humans from the start right?
1. He suffered a major defeat; also doesn't happen to the Technocracy.* Again, you say "Elves! Numenoreans!" and act as though Sauron had worse opponents. Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Non-Technocrat Magi, Mummies, and more are all people who the Technocracy 'has' to work against. I put 'has' in quotes because technically speaking, the only reason they have to work against them is that the Technocracy wants them dead, but.. eh. Even they're not totally logical. Heck, given the sum total of the Technocracy's enemies, they probably outnumber as well as outgun LotR folks.
3. Eh.. that's tough to properly state, especially without anything IC or OOC that can confirm the beginning of human history. The Technocrats say they were there from the start; The first Void Engineers were the first explorers, the first Progenitors were the first medicine men, It-X claims that the first ape who used a rock to make a better rock was their start, etc. As organizations, I believe that the Progenitors and Iteration-X had been established at a very, very early age (Like, early Egyptian history early). The Syndicate and the NWO, not so much.. Enlightenment Age or so, with the founding of the Order of Reason. The Void Engineers are what's left of the Electrodyne Engineers after they defected tot he Traditions.



Wait, one important question, is WoD setting at first glance just like the real world with a hidden masquerade who have been controlling humanity all along, or is it different (The South won the Civil war, stuff like that)
Mostly, it's just like our history. The 'truth' behind certain incidents in history can always be changed, and it was probably some Elder ______'s fault in the first place, where ______ is the supernatural who's name is on the cover, but it's pretty much our history.




Now what your saying makes a lot more sense, i see your point. With that in mind, the Techno guys control seems a lot more convincing now, i thought the other supernatural were just running around as well
They /exist/, and they're still individually powerful entities, but they don't organize on a grand scale if they're not the focus of the game. A Changeling might meet a Mage, for instance, but unless the storyteller decides to make it important, there's no Technocracy. Similarly, even if there's a Technocracy, unless it's also important, there's no Traditions unless the SToryteller says there are. Similarly, Mage, as a game, makes no assumption of there being a Camarilla or Sabbat, the major Vampire factions.



But the Technocracy's goal from the start is to control humanity via integrating into their society and controlling them. They aren't really humans, but they do run things and control the world. They are content as an organization (and correct me if i'm wrong) to dominate humanity to suit their own ends (Something to do with making science absolute and stomping out the traditionalists). Sauron wants order and law over everything in creation. Very different goals. Now could Sauron go into Mage, and take over. I doubt it, unless somebody explain to him what was going on, guns, modern day tech, the way things are run, ect, even then it is a maybe, personally i think Sauron would be screwed if he came into Mage oWoD (if what you say is true) because of the lack of knowledge. However that isn't them being better at corruption or control, that is them having a different goal, different methods, and literally thousands of years of integration I(as in living in secret controlling things) and knowledge advantage over humanity. Their control took a very long time, and still things don't go perfectly, and they aren't totally unitied (I think) and aren't one person.
Their paradigm for controlling humanity also involves effectively controlling all of reality, as well as planes of reality beyond it. That's why the Void Engineers fight so hard in the Digital Web and the Umbra. The Technocracy's plans ultimately require controlling EVERYTHING, and stamping out all other supernaturals. Seriously, dood, they /are flat out better at control/. We've demonstrated this. As for corruption, I never once posited that magi had that as a speciality, only the Wyrm. And he does a magnificent job at /that/.


1. Well the Tech guys only have to dominate puny humans who are ignorant of their existence.
2. In the areas he did rule his rule was totally absolute, but i see your point
1. And you know, /every other supernatural/. And the eldest of Vampires, or Werewolves, far outstrip Sauron on every level imaginable, Corruption aside (Because corruption just isn't their deal).


But wait a second, what about when people didn't understand the science around them? Like during the Black Death, the theory it was God punishing them, or the Jews, or what ever, when it was in fact an illness spread by Rats and Fleas, they didn't know that. If according to what you say that was in fact magic not science, why not just make it a magical illness?
That's an interesting question, actually. If I were to take a gamble, the illness initially started naturally, because stuff does still happen without magic intervention. Once it /did/ get started though, an Awakened Priest could punish those he felt were sinners, as could an Awakened Jewish person, provided they could justify doing so within their methodology (And had sufficient dots in Death magic) to do so. I'll get to the other implications further down.


what about the nuts (in real life) who deny electricity. or other sciences, you get the idea
An individual disagreeing with the Consensus does little to alter it. After all, Magi are individuals who disagree with the Consensus. An individual's disbelief can worsen Paradox if that action would draw Paradox, but it generally can't invoke it by itself. What this can mean is that within a primitive society, if you were to cast Vulgar Magic (That which strains the laws of reality too far), you would still suffer paradox, as one always does. However, if your paradigm for casting the spell matched the belief system of the local denizens, you could cast it in front of them without worsening that paradox. For that matter, Technocrats still suffer Paradox when using their hyper technology in front of Sleepers, because the truth of the matter is, at that point, it /is/ blatantly magic. I forgot about that part before; The testing that goes into 'innovations' among sleepers is also vital to establish that technology among the Masses in a believable way, so it fits into the Consensus.

*Note that to my knowledge, the Technocracy actually suffered a crippling Pyhrric victory. It was a pretty awesome story about a bad-ass Son of Ether who somehow found a way around Paradox completely, and mobilized a massive army of automated dirigibles and clockwork robots in the 1930s. He lead an assault on the nations of the world, and conquered the major cities within hours, thanks to his mad science. The Technocracy eventually repulsed the invasion after launching jets and countless HIT Marks (Their automaton robots, also clockwork at this point in time), but as they were Super Science at the time (And the HIT Marks still are), they each melted within minutes of engaging, thanks to Paradox. The NWO pretty much rewrote the entire world's memory of this, removing it almost completely from history.. but some remember still. It gave a huge window for the Traditions since for a time, the Technocracy was short on enforcers.

Having not read all the splatbooks, it's entirely possible that every Tradition has stories of such potentially awesome, if short-lived, victories.

[Selrahc]

1. If you take orders from somebody, you are a pawn. That is my point. If the Pope told me to find the Holy Grail, and i found it and gave it to him, i'm still working as his pawn.

What the hell is the similarity there? Charles the V was an enemy of the Popes. He was at war with Catholic France and the pope spoke out against him. He in turn marched an army into Rome, looted the holy city, and then took the Pope prisoner. The pope from that moment on was a puppet of the Hapsburgs, furthering the political desires of Charles V. Which resulted in among other things England leaving the Catholic church*. That is about as far away from being a pawn of the pope as you can get!

*"You want to divorce Catherine of Aragon Henry? Why sur- >Looks over shoulder, sees giant Spanish army, and remembers that Catherine is Charles the V's daughter< I mean hell no! Divorce is wrong. No anullment for you."


2. Charles the V was involved with the Thirty year war, correction. Mostly in the religious events that led up to the the war and its eventually cause (It was a religious war at first) and worked for the Pope for a while (helped at the Council of Trent, ect). When working for the Pope he was a pawn. He unintentionally spelled the down fall for his massive empire for not allowing the freedom of religion in Germany/Holland among other things. He was a figure who led to it, in the same way Martin Luther was (we all love the Diet of Worms)


You've completely changed what you were saying, and then phrased it in such a way as to continue an argument, rather than admit you were wrong....


1. I stopped arguing that thread because it took derailment to a major level, but if you insist
2. England's rise to power started. Spain as i said, wasn't cripplied, but was hurt, and England remained free and started to rise
3. Um, what about the Hapsburg bewilderment?
4. There was a war with the Ottomans, according to my college level history textbook. Do you want a quote/page number? It said that was a reason for Spanish over spreading their forces.

England rise to power didn't start. England signed a quite humiliating peace treaty only a handful of years later. Almost 75 years later, the Dutch were able to completely unopposed sail up the Thames and nick all of Englands ships, then sail away.

England remained a fairly weak nation. Spain remained top dog. It did not contribute to Englands growth, or to Spains decline in any major way.

The Ottomans were at war with the Spanish however you stated, for no apparent reason, that they were the major reason for Spains decline! If you got that from a history book, then that History book is flatly wrong.

And frankly everyone else on this thread has disagreed with what you've said, and given examples. You've made rather general statements, getting many key facts wrong. Do you really really think this "All Catholics are pawns" idea is a view point that is correct?

[EvilElitest]

1. He suffered a major defeat; also doesn't happen to the Technocracy.*

I notice the Technocracy hasn't taken total control of everything however. And are you saying that the Technocracy hasn't suffered a single defeat prior to the one you mention

Again, you say "Elves! Numenoreans!" and act as though Sauron had worse opponents. Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Non-Technocrat Magi, Mummies, and more are all people who the Technocracy 'has' to work against. I put 'has' in quotes because technically speaking, the only reason they have to work against them is that the Technocracy wants them dead, but.. eh. Even they're not totally logical. Heck, given the sum total of the Technocracy's enemies, they probably outnumber as well as outgun LotR folks.[/QUOTE]
1. Now your confusing me again, i thought you said vampires and werewolves were in a separate game where they ruled the world? Anyways, what is there relationship with the technocracy and abilties in terms of fighting them
2. Sauron is also one dude hte technocracy is against less dudes and are a group (correct me if i'm wrong)


3. Eh.. that's tough to properly state, especially without anything IC or OOC that can confirm the beginning of human history. The Technocrats say they were there from the start; The first Void Engineers were the first explorers, the first Progenitors were the first medicine men, It-X claims that the first ape who used a rock to make a better rock was their start, etc. As organizations, I believe that the Progenitors and Iteration-X had been established at a very, very early age (Like, early Egyptian history early). The Syndicate and the NWO, not so much.. Enlightenment Age or so, with the founding of the Order of Reason. The Void Engineers are what's left of the Electrodyne Engineers after they defected tot he Traditions

While i only generally understand what your talking about, i think i get the idea. However it seems like they have an advantage over Sauron, they've never had to dominate humans when humans were a real organized force



Mostly, it's just like our history. The 'truth' behind certain incidents in history can always be changed, and it was probably some Elder ______'s fault in the first place, where ______ is the supernatural who's name is on the cover, but it's pretty much our history.

ok, so every single event in history suited their purpose (Civil war, Fall of the Ottomans, Napoleon ect)



They /exist/, and they're still individually powerful entities, but they don't organize on a grand scale if they're not the focus of the game. A Changeling might meet a Mage, for instance, but unless the storyteller decides to make it important, there's no Technocracy. Similarly, even if there's a Technocracy, unless it's also important, there's no Traditions unless the SToryteller says there are. Similarly, Mage, as a game, makes no assumption of there being a Camarilla or Sabbat, the major Vampire factions.

what? Explain that again please in more detail


Their paradigm for controlling humanity also involves effectively controlling all of reality, as well as planes of reality beyond it. That's why the Void Engineers fight so hard in the Digital Web and the Umbra. The Technocracy's plans ultimately require controlling EVERYTHING, and stamping out all other supernaturals.

A dramatically different goal than Sauron's, different goal, different method



Seriously, dood, they /are flat out better at control/. We've demonstrated this. As for corruption, I never once posited that magi had that as a speciality, only the Wyrm. And he does a magnificent job at /that/.

1. On the control note, the've had a massive advantage of living in human society (or do you mean magical control)
2. And how does the Wrym do this? Any special incidents, powers ect?
3. Please, dude



1. And you know, /every other supernatural/. And the eldest of Vampires, or Werewolves, far outstrip Sauron on every level imaginable, Corruption aside (Because corruption just isn't their deal).
I really doubt that every major Vampire or Werewolf is better than Sauron at everything, your going to have to provide some specifics.


That's an interesting question, actually. If I were to take a gamble, the illness initially started naturally, because stuff does still happen without magic intervention. Once it /did/ get started though, an Awakened Priest could punish those he felt were sinners, as could an Awakened Jewish person, provided they could justify doing so within their methodology (And had sufficient dots in Death magic) to do so. I'll get to the other implications further down.

I doubt one dude spited people with the Black Death, too many people died it would require a whole group.


An individual disagreeing with the Consensus does little to alter it. After all, Magi are individuals who disagree with the Consensus. An individual's disbelief can worsen Paradox if that action would draw Paradox, but it generally can't invoke it by itself. What this can mean is that within a primitive society, if you were to cast Vulgar Magic (That which strains the laws of reality too far), you would still suffer paradox, as one always does. However, if your paradigm for casting the spell matched the belief system of the local denizens, you could cast it in front of them without worsening that paradox. For that matter, Technocrats still suffer Paradox when using their hyper technology in front of Sleepers, because the truth of the matter is, at that point, it /is/ blatantly magic. I forgot about that part before; The testing that goes into 'innovations' among sleepers is also vital to establish that technology among the Masses in a believable way, so it fits into the Consensus.
Yet again, i'm only vaguely aware of what your talking about due to my general ignorance about the system, so correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems like the Tech guys needs humans to exist, in a sort of leech sort or relationship, kinda like the robots in the Matrix, they need the humans to live, and so they control them. But they aren't dominating them in the same sense Sauron wants to (make the entire world perfectly ordered and logical) more like them using the humans to obtain the believe that their magic is science. Am i close?


*Note that to my knowledge, the Technocracy actually suffered a crippling Pyhrric victory. It was a pretty awesome story about a bad-ass Son of Ether who somehow found a way around Paradox completely, and mobilized a massive army of automated dirigibles and clockwork robots in the 1930s. He lead an assault on the nations of the world, and conquered the major cities within hours, thanks to his mad science. The Technocracy eventually repulsed the invasion after launching jets and countless HIT Marks (Their automaton robots, also clockwork at this point in time), but as they were Super Science at the time (And the HIT Marks still are), they each melted within minutes of engaging, thanks to Paradox. The NWO pretty much rewrote the entire world's memory of this, removing it almost completely from history.. but some remember still. It gave a huge window for the Traditions since for a time, the Technocracy was short on enforcers.

1. Explain how this dude could fight the Tech dudes if the are so powerful please?
2. So their control isn't absolute?



What the hell is the similarity there? Charles the V was an enemy of the Popes. He was at war with Catholic France and the pope spoke out against him. He in turn marched an army into Rome, looted the holy city, and then took the Pope prisoner. The pope from that moment on was a puppet of the Hapsburgs, furthering the political desires of Charles V. Which resulted in among other things England leaving the Catholic church*. That is about as far away from being a pawn of the pope as you can get!
I was referring to his policy that led to the start of the Thirty Year War, going along with the Pope's agenda. In that decision he was a pawn. I never said he was a pawn his total life



You've completely changed what you were saying, and then phrased it in such a way as to continue an argument, rather than admit you were wrong...

That very rude and insulting of you. I clarified what i meant, and you accuse me of both lying and cheating. Apart from that being blatantly incorrect, it is both, that is both nasty and arrogant, and comes out as silly


England rise to power didn't start. England signed a quite humiliating peace treaty only a handful of years later. Almost 75 years later, the Dutch were able to completely unopposed sail up the Thames and nick all of Englands ships, then sail away.

England remained a fairly weak nation. Spain remained top dog. It did not contribute to Englands growth, or to Spains decline in any major way.
England didn't become a super power in a day no, but their rise started around this time. They had set back (war of the roses) but their rise goes up here. For example, they started focusing more on their naval power (because the Spanish formations and ships were very bad, as well unlucky)



The Ottomans were at war with the Spanish however you stated, for no apparent reason, that they were the major reason for Spains decline! If you got that from a history book, then that History book is flatly wrong.

you've claimed this is your major area of study right?

"With his determination to crush heresy in the Low Countries, and with the enormous wealth of American silver enabling him to hire the mercenary armies he needed, why did Phillip II have such trouble achieving his goal? Phillip ruled the first global empire in history. He was preoccupied with other parts of the empire, especially the advance of the Ottoman Turks in the western Mediterranean.....At one point in 1566 he complained "I have so much on my mind that i rarely know what i am doing or saying" Only after Philip learned that Suleiman the Magnificent had led a Turkish army into Hungry, order his fleet from the Mediterranean to the Adriatic and died, did Phillip feel able to focus on the Netherlands"

At this point Phillip is getting close to death. Now are you going to say that the loss of the Thirty Year War did not help contribute to the Spanish defeat.

Also from the same book

"The defeat of the Spanish Armada was decisive, however in teh sense that it prevented Philip II from reimposing religious unity on Western Europe by force.
He did not conquer England, and Elizabeth continued her financial and military support of the dutch In the Netherlands, neither side gained significant territory. The borders of 1581 tended to become permanent. In 1609 Philip II of Spain agreeded to a truce, in effect recognizing the independence of the Untied Provinces. In seventeenth-century Spain, memory of the loss of the SPanish Armada contributed to a spirit of defeatism. In England the victory contributed to a David and Goliath legend that enhanced English sentiment"



And frankly everyone else on this thread has disagreed with what you've said, and given examples.
And frankly, your lying because that isn't true, define everybody. Everybody who agrees with you? everybody who has posted in the last twopages? Every body on the entire thread? Basically

You've made rather general statements, getting many key facts wrong.




Do you really really think this "All Catholics are pawns" idea is a view point that is correct?

Well considering that isn't what i said, no i don't. Now ignoring the blatant misquoting, what i'm saying is that if you obey the Pope (which most Catholics do) you are being his pawn. Same with any political leader
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

Well considering that isn't what i said, no i don't. Now ignoring the blatant misquoting, what i'm saying is that if you obey the Pope (which most Catholics do) you are being his pawn. Same with any political leader
from
EE


instrument: a person used by another to gain an end

Because clearly the catholic pope is one who uses others religious beliefs to gain an end. While in some far off sense yes, but not in the same sense of a "pawn".

EE, you take the definition of a pawn to literally. Do you see the pope sacrificing his own people? Do you consider that all political leaders consider their constituents as having the least amount of worth?

Hell, I thought I was jaded. But what am I saying, I imagine you can't even vote. Maybe it's popular these days to be part of the jaded youth.

Obey ≠ pawn. Especially with the fact that pawn holds a negative connotation when used in regular english. Which you seem to be completely ignoring. I don't see a negative connection in faith between religious followers and a religious leader.

Let's also ignore the fact that citizens don't "obey" their political leaders. A political leader in the U.S. isn't the ones giving the orders, it's the policy that's formed collectively from others they follow. So, no, shot down there too. This is basic civics. I don't see my city council members huddling together "oh, let's sacrifice the people on this street for a green project". And I've worked in those offices.

Morbo says: "Stop simplifying and using inappropriate language choices. Pawn DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Also, cats give indigestion"

[Artemician]

I didn't want to get dragged into this discussion, but.. a person's gotta do what a person's gotta do. I just can't stand it.


How WoD works

Frankly, I don't play WoD. I can't claim to know the specifics of it. But I don't need to, because I read what Rutee has posted. It tells me enough. If you had read what she had posted either, you would understand too.

The World of Darkness is a catch-all term for the metaplot of the setting, which features supernaturals such as Werewolves, Vampires, Changelings, Prometheans, Mages, so on and so forth.

One book for each faction was produced, in which that faction is explored in greater detail. However, minor details vary from sourcebook to sourcebook, and there are some examples of contradiction.

For example, in Mage: The Awakening, the Technocracy is stated as controlling the world, with how it does so, and its factions explored in greater detail. In Vampire: The Masquerade, the Antideluvians control the world, and with how it does so, and its factions explored in greater detail. In Mage, the vampires are just assumed to be these enemy combatants on the sidelines. In Vampire, the mages are just assumed to be these enemy combatants on the sidelines.

The games have contradictory fluff. For the sake of this discussion, we are using the fluff presented in Mage: The Awakening, in which the Technocracy controls the world.

You have no excuse to be ignorant. If you had read others posts, you would have known this.


30 Years War, European History, etc

I don't care about this.


Definition of word: Pawn[/quote[

You're using it wrongly. You should use the word "Follower" to avoid confusion. A follower and a pawn are very different things.

[quote]Various Ad Hominem Arguments

Stop using them. Debate with logic, not with insult. Even if other people use them, you don't have to. It makes you look stupid.


Technocracy's Control over the populace

The only people who can oppose the Technocracy are Tradition mages, Demons, and other supernaturals. The average mook can't even dream of opposing them.


Sauron's Control over the populace

A significant portion of the world knows about him, and openly takes up arms to oppose him. That says a lot about his "total domination"

*

I'll leave it at there for now.

[Rutee]

I notice the Technocracy hasn't taken total control of everything however. And are you saying that the Technocracy hasn't suffered a single defeat prior to the one you mention
They haven't suffered major ones, to my knowledge. Even the enormous loss of materiele to that one ridiculously powerful Son of Ether was a loss of materiele, not men, because the SoE *Would not kill*. Materiele is something that's easy for the Technocracy to recreate. They had their troops back inside of a decade.


1. Now your confusing me again, i thought you said vampires and werewolves were in a separate game where they ruled the world? Anyways, what is there relationship with the technocracy and abilties in terms of fighting them
2. Sauron is also one dude hte technocracy is against less dudes and are a group (correct me if i'm wrong)
2. Sauron has armies. And I'm willnig to bet that at this point in history, Supernaturals outnumber the number of Numenoreans and Elves in the army. Every Supernatural can accurately be termed a 'combatant' in this case, because not only do their powers directly aid them in battle, but everyone who doesn't submit (And no non-mage will go down without swinging) fight back against the Technocrats.

Edit: Did the math at work. If we go by the laughable figure listed in the books (And I promise you that the ratio is far more tilted towards Supernaturals then this in practice), for every 10,000 ordinary mortals, there's a Supernatural of each type. Discounting Prometheans (As they weren't in oWoD), and tripling the number for Hunters (Because they're explicitly more common then any given Supernatural), you have, lessee. There's 600,000+ Mages, Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Mummies, Wraiths, and Demons. There's 1,800,000 Hunters. Of course, that's the overarching metaplot, where everything is true. Let's take Mages alone for a moment, and assume half of them belong to the Technocracy (While it's true that Tradition Mages are usually outnumbered, this is due to the wider number of unAwakened personnel that the Technocracy can draw on, as well as the various models of HIT Marks, Bio-weapons, and whatnot that the Technocracy can add tot he fray), then the Technocracy has at least 300,000 dedicated opponents. That's just magi; Other Reality Deviants Supernaturals are around, but a 'hard number' isn't feasible for them at all. How many numbered in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men again?



While i only generally understand what your talking about, i think i get the idea. However it seems like they have an advantage over Sauron, they've never had to dominate humans when humans were a real organized force
Humans in the medieval ages were about as well organized as the Middle Earth Verse, and that's when they took over, so I don't know what you're babbling about.


what? Explain that again please in more detail
I've explained in plenty, but Artemician does so once again so.


A dramatically different goal than Sauron's, different goal, different method
....You recognize that Sauron applied their basic methodology over his major enemies in the third war, right? See: Grima, Saruman.


1. On the control note, the've had a massive advantage of living in human society (or do you mean magical control)
2. And how does the Wrym do this? Any special incidents, powers ect?
3. Please, dude
1. ...It's both magical and non-, dear. I've explained this repeatedly.
2. By being an insane Spirit who is entropy and decay incarnate. Weak spirits are drawn to the phenomena they represent, and spread them. Powerful ones create it entirely on their own. I'm genuinely not sure on specifics aside from that, because as stated, I don't have, and odn't plan on reading, the Nephandi/Black Spiral Dancers/Other Servant splats. The BSD, as a note, existed for the sole purpose of /fighting/ evil spirits.


I really doubt that every major Vampire or Werewolf is better than Sauron at everything, your going to have to provide some specifics.
They're mid-powered Exalts, effectively, so I'm pretty sure they would effectively dominate Sauron. For example, Celerity (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Celerity_%28VTM%29). Celerity 9 is "I do anything physical perfectly". Matter 10 would allow a Magus to turn *all* of Mordor (Or the rest of Middle Earth, if they really felt like it) into Sodium, which would cause it to detonate (Or if they're not chemistry types, Forces 10 would allow them to detonate it outright. Or hurl it off the planet. Or shatter it into chunks that allow each country their own island/mini-continent..) The White Wolf Wiki unfortunately doesn't list the 6-10 dot Rites (Or any others) But flavor-wise, a Werewolf at <Power Level> 10 is scarier in a melee then a Vampire at <Power Level> 10, and Vampires *do everything physical unto perfection* at that point.

Heck, <Power Level> 6 is the requisite to be an Elder, and the stuff under Celerity 6 is "Perfect Defense" and "I run 50 mph". Obfuscate 6 is perfect invisibility for other creatures; Obfuscate 10 lets you remove your name from history. At /5/ dots in a sphere, not even /elder/ territory, Magi can freely create things that fall under their purview, assuming they couldn't before. They may suffer Paradox and pay Mana, but htey can /do/ it easily enough.

Hm, looking into it, Vampires at 10, like Magi, explicitly can do Whatever the frag they want (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Plot_Device) with their powers, as long as it falls under their scope.



I doubt one dude spited people with the Black Death, too many people died it would require a whole group.
Nah, I can see one Death magus spreading the Black Plague that well. Probably accidentally, but I can see it happening.



Yet again, i'm only vaguely aware of what your talking about due to my general ignorance about the system, so correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems like the Tech guys needs humans to exist, in a sort of leech sort or relationship, kinda like the robots in the Matrix, they need the humans to live, and so they control them. But they aren't dominating them in the same sense Sauron wants to (make the entire world perfectly ordered and logical) more like them using the humans to obtain the believe that their magic is science. Am i close?
The Technocracy doesn't need humans. At all. Put it this way: If the world worked like it did in the 1200s, even their Super Science wouldn't yield paradox, because there would be no Paradox, because there /still/ wouldn't be a Consensus for Reality to adhere to. Magi can pursue Ascension without actually bringing it to the Masses. In their own twisted way, the Technocracy still seeks to help humans. They just, you know, know what's best for them, so obviously they have the right to co-opt their free will.


1. Explain how this dude could fight the Tech dudes if the are so powerful please?
2. So their control isn't absolute?
1. How? This isn't The Forgotten Realms, where every incident gets a novel. This is 2 pages or so in the Sons of Ether book, and it explicitly doesn't establish one "How", but rather, offers several interpretations, as well as wriggle room for more, leaving it for, optimally, the players to figure out, if they choose to integrate that aspect of the setting into their game. That's how a /lot/ of specific incidents work. Suffice it to say, he's a really god damn good Matter/Forces/Prime Magus, and he found some way to produce all this in secret and launch an attack to free the world from the Technocracy.

Edit: Actually, rereading the story.. he apparently didn't even lose conventionally. The Technocracy learned of /why/ he was doing this.. specifically, because he's a pacifist, and he wanted to save lives, stop war, etc. Apparently, his Kung Fu was stronger then their's, and they lost utterly when they fought back on his terms, which was super-technology... but he wasn't willing to kill, so they deployed Progenitor-made biological weapons against him, which he refused to fight back against, and simply withdrew to God-knows-where. Huh.
2. Over the Masses, yeah, it is. Did you miss the part where they completely erased the incident from the World's memory?


Well considering that isn't what i said, no i don't. Now ignoring the blatant misquoting, what i'm saying is that if you obey the Pope (which most Catholics do) you are being his pawn. Same with any political leader
from
EE

LEADERSHIP AND POLITICS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!

[Oslecamo]

I don't understand why youre discussing all of this.

I think it's pretty obvious Alucard is much worst at comanding large armies and territorries than Sauron.

He got his living army totally wiped out by the turks, and then got his army of undeads ass quicked by Hellsing and ended up enslaved.

Sauron at least managed to rise such a fighting force that pretty much the rest of the world had to gank on him to defeat him.

[Artemician]

I don't understand why youre discussing all of this.

I think it's pretty obvious Alucard is much worst at comanding large armies and territorries than Sauron.

He got his living army totally wiped out by the turks, and then got his army of undeads ass quicked by Hellsing and ended up enslaved.

Sauron at least managed to rise such a fighting force that pretty much the rest of the world had to gank on him to defeat him.

Notice how not a single post in this thread mentions Alucard? Yea.

As with all threads on the Internet, the debate has shifted. We are now talking about whether Sauron can really be considered such the greatest manipulator.

[Rutee]

Which I'd genuinely like to think I'm demonstrating to be false, using just one setting. But, I'm arrogant like that.

[warty goblin]

Which I'd genuinely like to think I'm demonstrating to be false, using just one setting. But, I'm arrogant like that.

And I honestly think you have as well, although I know very little about WoD (n or o), it does seem to be pretty much built around manipulation. But then, I've never claimed that Sauron is the top of the heap at everything, merely very good at what he does, particularly the corruption bits.

[EvilElitest]

Because clearly the catholic pope is one who uses others religious beliefs to gain an end. While in some far off sense yes, but not in the same sense of a "pawn".

EE, you take the definition of a pawn to literally. Do you see the pope sacrificing his own people? Do you consider that all political leaders consider their constituents as having the least amount of worth?

I never said the Pope has to not believe in what he is saying, or be a hypocrite. I'm just saying if you take orders from anyone based on any sort of faith/nationalistic belief/virtue ect you are being a pawn.


Hell, I thought I was jaded. But what am I saying, I imagine you can't even vote. Maybe it's popular these days to be part of the jaded youth.

Really people, ageism gets annoying
I'm cynical more than Jaded, Jaded is more rejecting everything because you think is wrong, cynical is more understanding it and going with it. I know that if i go to a Presidential candidate rally and do what what the person says i'm still being their pawn. I just happen to believe in what there saying and i am fine with doing it. Puppet is the word i think Rutee was looking for



Obey ≠ pawn. Especially with the fact that pawn holds a negative connotation when used in regular english. Which you seem to be completely ignoring. I don't see a negative connection in faith between religious followers and a religious leader.

Pawn can have a negative connotation, i'm not using it in that way. A willing pawn anyone? Say i read a book that tells me to go out and eat pizza because it is the holy food. If i really believe that pizza is holy (and i'm not just doing it because i want food) i'm being a pawn. A willing pawn, but a pawn none the less. you can say it is a negative thing, i just say it is a way of life and go with it.


Let's also ignore the fact that citizens don't "obey" their political leaders. A political leader in the U.S. isn't the ones giving the orders, it's the policy that's formed collectively from others they follow. So, no, shot down there too. This is basic civics. I don't see my city council members huddling together "oh, let's sacrifice the people on this street for a green project". And I've worked in those offices.
1. Well personally I try my best to obey all of the US that are legally passed and protesting ones i don't like in a legal fashion. I'm still being a pawn to the ideals of the government (unity, law, order, the important stuff), because i agree with it and the tenants of our society.
2. Yet again, you don't need to be a liar to have pawns, i'm sure your city council members do what they think is best for the city
Morbo says: "Stop simplifying and using inappropriate language choices. Pawn DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. Also, cats give indigestion"[/QUOTE]


You have no excuse to be ignorant. If you had read others posts, you would have known this.
yeah i do, because everyone keeps assuming people understand what they are talking about and never out right state things so i have to fish for information. Which is really annoying because that wiki is to damn disorganized

2. Sauron has armies. And I'm willnig to bet that at this point in history, Supernaturals outnumber the number of Numenoreans and Elves in the army. Every Supernatural can accurately be termed a 'combatant' in this case, because not only do their powers directly aid them in battle, but everyone who doesn't submit (And no non-mage will go down without swinging) fight back against the Technocrats.
They are whole nations worth of supernaturals? As in millions of them? What? From what i can tell, there seem to be a lot who are spread out, disorganized and individually powerful, but trying to keep secret in the human world. Techies have organization on their side, big points there


Edit: Did the math at work. If we go by the laughable figure listed in the books (And I promise you that the ratio is far more tilted towards Supernaturals then this in practice), for every 10,000 ordinary mortals, there's a Supernatural of each type. Discounting Prometheans (As they weren't in oWoD), and tripling the number for Hunters (Because they're explicitly more common then any given Supernatural), you have, lessee. There's 600,000+ Mages, Vampires, Werewolves, Changelings, Mummies, Wraiths, and Demons. There's 1,800,000 Hunters. Of course, that's the overarching metaplot, where everything is true. Let's take Mages alone for a moment, and assume half of them belong to the Technocracy (While it's true that Tradition Mages are usually outnumbered, this is due to the wider number of unAwakened personnel that the Technocracy can draw on, as well as the various models of HIT Marks, Bio-weapons, and whatnot that the Technocracy can add tot he fray), then the Technocracy has at least 300,000 dedicated opponents. That's just magi; Other Reality Deviants Supernaturals are around, but a 'hard number' isn't feasible for them at all. How many numbered in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men again?

Sauron is up against whole nations, massive nations, some of them have been around from near the start of the world and don't lose dudes to age. They are are also organized, unified, and separate from him. And all of the animals/trees/spirits are on their side as well. And this isn't a cold war, it is an open war.



Humans in the medieval ages were about as well organized as the Middle Earth Verse, and that's when they took over, so I don't know what you're babbling about.
Medieval Europe? Organized into on front? Yeah, of course

The good guy forces in middle earth were quite well unified until Sauron broke them up via corruption later.



....You recognize that Sauron applied their basic methodology over his major enemies in the third war, right? See: Grima, Saruman.

Both of which were external corruption, not internal

Also, the techies seem to have more powerful magic than saron if they have all the world's technology at their hands?


1. ...It's both magical and non-, dear. I've explained this repeatedly.
2. By being an insane Spirit who is entropy and decay incarnate. Weak spirits are drawn to the phenomena they represent, and spread them. Powerful ones create it entirely on their own. I'm genuinely not sure on specifics aside from that, because as stated, I don't have, and odn't plan on reading, the Nephandi/Black Spiral Dancers/Other Servant splats. The BSD, as a note, existed for the sole purpose of /fighting/ evil spirits.
1. With an advantage of centuries of integrating
2. So we can't say then?


They're mid-powered Exalts, effectively, so I'm pretty sure they would effectively dominate Sauron. For example, Celerity. Celerity 9 is "I do anything physical perfectly". Matter 10 would allow a Magus to turn *all* of Mordor (Or the rest of Middle Earth, if they really felt like it) into Sodium, which would cause it to detonate (Or if they're not chemistry types, Forces 10 would allow them to detonate it outright. Or hurl it off the planet. Or shatter it into chunks that allow each country their own island/mini-continent..) The White Wolf Wiki unfortunately doesn't list the 6-10 dot Rites (Or any others) But flavor-wise, a Werewolf at <Power Level> 10 is scarier in a melee then a Vampire at <Power Level> 10, and Vampires *do everything physical unto perfection* at that point.

Heck, <Power Level> 6 is the requisite to be an Elder, and the stuff under Celerity 6 is "Perfect Defense" and "I run 50 mph". Obfuscate 6 is perfect invisibility for other creatures; Obfuscate 10 lets you remove your name from history. At /5/ dots in a sphere, not even /elder/ territory, Magi can freely create things that fall under their purview, assuming they couldn't before. They may suffer Paradox and pay Mana, but htey can /do/ it easily enough.
And these dudes are not taken over the world why?


Hm, looking into it, Vampires at 10, like Magi, explicitly can do Whatever the frag they want with their powers, as long as it falls under their scope.

Did you get that link wrong


In the Gehenna supplement, this is the power for all level 10 Disciplines. Basically, it does whatever the Antediluvian in question needs to do with the Discipline in question. In a scenario involving [Tzimisce], for instance, Tremere attempts to seize mental control of the entire human race while the Eldest triggers an aspect of Vicissitude in everyone (Tremere included) and mutates them, while in her scenario, Ennoia becomes one with the planet Earth (a sort of jumped-up Earth Meld).

what does that mean?


The Technocracy doesn't need humans. At all. Put it this way: If the world worked like it did in the 1200s, even their Super Science wouldn't yield paradox, because there would be no Paradox, because there /still/ wouldn't be a Consensus for Reality to adhere to. Magi can pursue Ascension without actually bringing it to the Masses. In their own twisted way, the Technocracy still seeks to help humans. They just, you know, know what's best for them, so obviously they have the right to co-opt their free will.



But in order to get their goals done they need to have these dudes dominated right?

Now lets be frank, it is generally impossible really compare Sauron to WoD because, well, they are totally different. And as yet, nether side has proven anything. The technocracy has more powerful magic, the advantage of integration, and modern knowledge, so i suppose that is a win for them? But Sauron is lacking those resources and still pulling off a good job, with a different goal in mind. So such a comparison isn't really proving anything, because yet again, it is two radically different forces. And what are we trying to prove? If The technocracy attacked Middle Earth who would win? Well duh, one side has guns. And if Sauron wound up in WoD, well duh, guns/super magic again. However this really just boils down to them both being really different and all comparisons are extremly confusing
Both sides are good at manipulation, both sides aren't perfect, both sides have made mistakes and failed at stuff. Both of them have different goals, different methods, and different foes and styles. So we really aren't proving anything here. True it is a lot more interesting than the title debate
from
EE


from
EE

[Artemician]

Definition of Pawn, again

If I listen to my mum and get a cup of tea for her, am I a Pawn? By your definition, it seems so.

I'm not trying to jump on the Bandwagon here, but since every single person here disagrees with your conception of the word "pawn", you have to ask yourself whether your definition, which you alone seem to champion, is really correct.

Regardless, I'm not interested in debating Semantics, so the discussion stops here, as far as I'm concerned.


Information

If you're not prepared to read up the information you want to argue for/against beforehand, you're not prepared to debate. There are no excuses. If you did not understand, you ask. Then you state your opinion.

You do not outright jump to an assumption and then state your opinion based on flawed facts, and then masquerade that under ignorance. If you're making an opinion based off incomplete information, you outright state that in your argument, instead of presenting your argument as backed up by fact when it isn't.


Why Supernaturals don't take over the world

This much I understand: Supernaturals don't rule the world because of other Supernaturals. This is very similiar to the situation in Exalted, which is another Whitewolf game that features stupidly powered factions. Of course, one faction technically does rule the world (Solars in Exalted, and the titular faction in WoD), but they're locked in a stalemate.

Am I correct? I don't claim to know White Wolf that well, so I may be wrong, but this seems to be correct based on what little of the White Wolf Wiki I've read.


Apples and Oranges

Why can't you compare Sauron to the Technocracy? We can compare Warrior-Mages (Naruto) to mystic Elementalists (Toph) to Giant Monsters (Godzilla) to Necromancer Lords (The Lich King). We can do anything we like, it's a versus thread. :P


Time Factor

Sauron had 3000 years to corrupt the world. The Technocracy only really got serious during the Renaissance Era. That's 500-odd years. Are you now trying to claim that the Technocracy had the time advantage?


Numerous "unfair technological advantages" of the Technocracy

They created those things themselves. Those advantages are their own. Everything in our Modern World as you know it was made by the Technocracy. It's not unfair in any sense of the word, any more than Sauron having forged the One Ring is unfair. You put in effort, you get results. Fair's fair.

----------------

I would like to offer one point of original analysis now, instead of merely replying to other's points.

Sauron and the Technocracy both started from the same starting point: Medieval Society, where the world was vast and unconquered. They both had the same sort of extremely powerful enemies, who wanted to do them in (Supernaturals and Tradition Mages for the Technocrats, Elf Lords and miscallaneous Istari for Sauron). They both succeeded to a varying degree.

After 3000 years Sauron conquered 2/3s of the continent. The other 1/3 hates him with a burning passion, and marches with an army to besiege his fortress, despite his best efforts to break their ranks and sow discord. Before that, he had a greater empire, but that empire was defeated through force of arms.

The Technocracy, in the space of 400 years and Supernatural opposition, took over the whole of the known world. Every single aspect of the world is under their control, the average person doesn't even know that they exist. Their enemies have been driven into hiding, or exile.

I ask you, from a common starting point, two very different scenarios. Which was more successful, I ask you?

[Lizard]

I don't understand why youre discussing all of this.

I think it's pretty obvious Alucard is much worst at comanding large armies and territorries than Sauron.

He got his living army totally wiped out by the turks, and then got his army of undeads ass quicked by Hellsing and ended up enslaved.

Sauron at least managed to rise such a fighting force that pretty much the rest of the world had to gank on him to defeat him.

Alucard is so stupidly powerful he does not need an army. And in addition, he can absorb soul of any enemy he slays and that will increase his power even more.Employing an army to defead him is like trying to extinguish fire by throwing a bunch of wooden, well-dried logs covered by oil into it.
Alucard easily survives everything Sauron can throw at him and actually get stronger...

Considering the actual topic... I pretty much agree with Rutee. Sauron is nice, classic Evil Overlord and all, but he hardly is a top-dog of fiction villianry. Infact, I am not sure he would make it even into middle tier.

[Poison_Fish]

I never said the Pope has to not believe in what he is saying, or be a hypocrite. I'm just saying if you take orders from anyone based on any sort of faith/nationalistic belief/virtue ect you are being a pawn.

There are more appropriate terms in the english language. Use them.


Really people, ageism gets annoying
I'm cynical more than Jaded, Jaded is more rejecting everything because you think is wrong, cynical is more understanding it and going with it. I know that if i go to a Presidential candidate rally and do what what the person says i'm still being their pawn. I just happen to believe in what there saying and i am fine with doing it. Puppet is the word i think Rutee was looking for

Face it EE, your young, I'm young, most of us on this board are rather young. If you were a cynic, you'd be stating what wasn't and doubting. You aren't doing that.


Pawn can have a negative connotation, i'm not using it in that way. A willing pawn anyone? Say i read a book that tells me to go out and eat pizza because it is the holy food. If i really believe that pizza is holy (and i'm not just doing it because i want food) i'm being a pawn. A willing pawn, but a pawn none the less. you can say it is a negative thing, i just say it is a way of life and go with it.

Not pawn can. Pawn does have a negative connotation. This is what your essentially doing; Saying a cuss word, and then defending yourself because "I think of it differently". Sorry, that doesn't work. Pawn is a negative description (As in a pawn on a chess board, of little value) that implies vast power imbalance. This is common language. To "pawn" something as well functions as a negative because it is often used in terms when money is desperate.


1. Well personally I try my best to obey all of the US that are legally passed and protesting ones i don't like in a legal fashion. I'm still being a pawn to the ideals of the government (unity, law, order, the important stuff), because i agree with it and the tenants of our society.
2. Yet again, you don't need to be a liar to have pawns, i'm sure your city council members do what they think is best for the city

1. No, your following the law out of an agreement of an implied and enforced social contract for being a citizen. Your are not a pawn because there is a mutual benefit between the social contract of individual and government. The ideals have very little to do with it. They are not pawns of each other. The use of pawn is very poor word choice.
2. Did I ever say you needed a liar for a pawn to be implied? Did I ever say I doubt what my city council does? Reply #2 here is coming from the left field and I'm unsure what your attempting to illustrate.


Now lets be frank, it is generally impossible really compare Sauron to WoD because, well, they are totally different. And as yet, nether side has proven anything. The technocracy has more powerful magic, the advantage of integration, and modern knowledge, so i suppose that is a win for them? But Sauron is lacking those resources and still pulling off a good job, with a different goal in mind. So such a comparison isn't really proving anything, because yet again, it is two radically different forces. And what are we trying to prove? If The technocracy attacked Middle Earth who would win? Well duh, one side has guns. And if Sauron wound up in WoD, well duh, guns/super magic again. However this really just boils down to them both being really different and all comparisons are extremly confusing

You know, I once said Warcraft III was different then LotR, though my point wasn't to hamper comparisons. I seem to recall you disliking that and insisting that on vs. threads, differences in content mean little.


Both sides are good at manipulation, both sides aren't perfect, both sides have made mistakes and failed at stuff. Both of them have different goals, different methods, and different foes and styles. So we really aren't proving anything here. True it is a lot more interesting than the title debate

I believe the comparison here was to point out that Sauron wasn't all that great at manipulating in comparison to others. What's the point of a vs. thread if there is no comparison? I thought you lived for this stuff.


Regardless, I'm not interested in debating Semantics, so the discussion stops here, as far as I'm concerned.

Hmm.. in retrospect, I am going off on semantics. I suppose it does rub me the wrong way though.


This much I understand: Supernaturals don't rule the world because of other Supernaturals. This is very similiar to the situation in Exalted, which is another Whitewolf game that features stupidly powered factions. Of course, one faction technically does rule the world (Solars in Exalted, and the titular faction in WoD), but they're locked in a stalemate.

Am I correct? I don't claim to know White Wolf that well, so I may be wrong, but this seems to be correct based on what little of the White Wolf Wiki I've read.


Yes and no. The solars were the ones who were "meant" to rule the world(First age). But they actually have no to little control. When PC's are playing, more often then not, they are just trying to survive. In the case of Exalted in the second age, the weaker faction(by individuals), the dragon blooded are in control of creation (or more like 1/4th of it). But that's largely with the help of their shadowy supervisors who are more in charge of the world and are also in charge of heaven/fate/the stars/destiny.

Yeah.. Exalted is a bit weird noting that you can own destiny.

[Rutee]

yeah i do, because everyone keeps assuming people understand what they are talking about and never out right state things so i have to fish for information. Which is really annoying because that wiki is to damn disorganized
No, for a while, I genuinely thought I was doing a bad job at explaining; Here's something you should know, though. Artemician's knowledge comes entirely from my posts/links. Clearly, I am not doing that bad a job if the only errors in his posts were minor nitpicks. You are failing to understand the words that are coming out of my mouth, and there is no legitimate excuse for this.


They are whole nations worth of supernaturals? As in millions of them? What? From what i can tell, there seem to be a lot who are spread out, disorganized and individually powerful, but trying to keep secret in the human world. Techies have organization on their side, big points there
Yes, there are likely millions of them. Non-Magi, within Mage, will not be well organized. Tradition Mages are.



Sauron is up against whole nations, massive nations, some of them have been around from near the start of the world and don't lose dudes to age. They are are also organized, unified, and separate from him. And all of the animals/trees/spirits are on their side as well. And this isn't a cold war, it is an open war.
The fact htat it's an open war doesn't tell you that his control is less effective? And it's against significantly weaker people, with significantly fewer numbers.



Medieval Europe? Organized into on front? Yeah, of course


The good guy forces in middle earth were quite well unified until Sauron broke them up via corruption later.
Given that there are seperate countries in the LotR-verse, I'm pretty sure you can't legitimately claim they're more organized then medieval Europe.


Both of which were external corruption, not internal

Also, the techies seem to have more powerful magic than saron if they have all the world's technology at their hands?
They were examples of manipulation as well, however; After all, I'm accepting "Manipulation by proxy" for the Technocracy, so it'd be unfair to ignore what Sauron managed to do with Theoden.



1. With an advantage of centuries of integrating
2. So we can't say then?
1. ...They don't integrate. Seriously. Integration denotes being truly a member of the society at large. Prior to the Renaissance and their flowering into the world at large, they existed outside of humanity, away from it. The members were once-human, sure, but they didn't really interact with society at large. The Tradition Mages are the ones who integrate.
2. Given that he's corrupted badder beings who existed for the direct purpose of stopping them, I'm on the Wyrm's side. He also does so with Magi of many stripes, even if they do know Spirit and Mind Magic (Which I imagine are the spheres that govern protection from corruption).


And these dudes are not taken over the world why?
Counter Plot Devices, primarily. Selrahc, in another thread, roughly went over combat between the eldest Vampires.
"<Discipline I can't remember> 10. I blow up Europe."
"Celerity 10. I dodge."
Or "Obfuscate 10. What Europe?"



Did you get that link wrong
It's not sending you to the Plot Device section? 'cause it does for me.



what does that mean?
That at 10 dots in a Discipline, a Vampire is capable of doing literally anything that falls under that Discipline's purview. You can perform any physical action with Celerity. You can do any trick involving confusion and loss of perception with Obfuscate. You can see literally everything with Auspex. Etc, etc..



But in order to get their goals done they need to have these dudes dominated right?
Only because their goals involve 'helping' humanity.


Now lets be frank, it is generally impossible really compare Sauron to WoD because, well, they are totally different. And as yet, nether side has proven anything. The technocracy has more powerful magic, the advantage of integration, and modern knowledge, so i suppose that is a win for them? But Sauron is lacking those resources and still pulling off a good job, with a different goal in mind. So such a comparison isn't really proving anything, because yet again, it is two radically different forces. And what are we trying to prove? If The technocracy attacked Middle Earth who would win? Well duh, one side has guns. And if Sauron wound up in WoD, well duh, guns/super magic again. However this really just boils down to them both being really different and all comparisons are extremly confusing
Both sides are good at manipulation, both sides aren't perfect, both sides have made mistakes and failed at stuff. Both of them have different goals, different methods, and different foes and styles. So we really aren't proving anything here. True it is a lot more interesting than the title debate
Oh for Gods' sakes. Why is it this chestnut is dragged out when Sauron is clearly losing, and ignored when Sauron is 'winning', in the perception of Sauron supporters? If we have no intention of debating things that are different, we should just stop ANY Inter-media Versus Threads, ever. If it's not "Person from Universe A vs. Person from Person B from Universe A", by this argument, it shouldn't exist at all, and yet, /you do this/.

And there's no Technological Advantage for the Technocracy, within their own universe; If it's in the Consensus, it works for everybody. That's why a Correspondence Magus isn't just going to make teleport everywhere; Why should they, when they can just take a car/plane? It's less effort, though there can be times when it's worth doing. If they do have a "Technological Advantage", it's their Super Science, which is Magic. Period.

Unless you were serious about outright Middle-Earth-verse vs. WoD. Because it was never a question that the WoD tramples the middle-earth verse in an outright fight. Sauron can make Orcs n' trolls? That's nice. The Progenitors and the Verbena can make stuff that dwarfs those. Most decent Life Magi can. The One Ring? Mind/Spirit Magic. More powerful forces for mind-affecting-compulsions are employed on a daily basis, on a greater scale, to greater effect. Etc, etc. The question was manipulative skill, which would appear to very clearly be a point for the WoD over Sauron, and that would prove my point that Sauron has literally no field in which he can claim to be superlative over the rest of fiction.


This much I understand: Supernaturals don't rule the world because of other Supernaturals. This is very similiar to the situation in Exalted, which is another Whitewolf game that features stupidly powered factions. Of course, one faction technically does rule the world (Solars in Exalted, and the titular faction in WoD), but they're locked in a stalemate.

Am I correct? I don't claim to know White Wolf that well, so I may be wrong, but this seems to be correct based on what little of the White Wolf Wiki I've read.
I wouldn't say they're stupidly powered factions, because the PCs can legitimately oppose other groups from Character Creation onwards, and the GM doesn't have to take it easy on them deliberately for them to survive in Creation (Unless you oppose Falafel, I guess). I may have been unclear in this, but a GM, by the time of later editions of books in oWoD, literally must have the antagonist group sandbag to be both a credible threat, and a non-overwhelming one, or at least, that's how it felt. And to quote Superdickery, "And that's terrible."

Anyway, the stalemate depends on the game. Since we're using the Technocracy, because Mage is by far the game I'm most familiar with, there isn't one. They've won. Like WT said, the proof of the Technocracy's victory is the fact that the world works on Scientific principles. They really do run the world,

[GoC]

Sauron is up against whole nations, massive nations, some of them have been around from near the start of the world and don't lose dudes to age. They are are also organized, unified, and separate from him. And all of the animals/trees/spirits are on their side as well. And this isn't a cold war, it is an open war.

Massive, but not in modern terms. An army of a million troops would have been the largest army ever seen on middle earth judging by the few actual numbers in the books (a few thousand here and there and a significant army of ten thousand in the ancient epic times).

[Verruckt]

As much as I enjoy anecdotes about the crusades and various WoD trivia bits.

HOW THE #$%@! DID THIS BECOME A DISCUSSION OF HOW SAURON IS SIMILAR/DIFFERENT THAN MAGE WHETHER OR NOT THE VAMPS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRUSADES?!?

/vent

ahem. Anywho, I thought I solved this on page three, and since I did not, allow me to give what you might call a simulation of thus scenario.

Ground Rules: Sauron at the height of his power before the LotR movies. Alucard circa manga 8.

We zoom to middle earth, where Sauron is growing anxious as one by one his operatives go silent, even Saruman had fallen into obscurity, and the Lidless Eye grew blind to the lands of men. Soon after there was an uproar at the black gates of Mordor, and it was then that Sauron first gazed upon that which would end him. A Red Spectre rent trolls limb from limb, blasting goblins and orcs alike with weapons of inscrutable design. From his tower Sauron could almost see, no, was that baleful visage smiling? days passed as the red doom strolled across the blasted fields of Mordor, unhindered by the full might of the greatest army on Middle Earth. When it reached the foot of his tower, Gorthaur felt a change overcome him, and he found the ring on his armored finger once again.

Renewed, he stood ready to face what ever it was that dared to trespass into his realm. What confronted him was a man in a red coat and red hat, the man dropped his weapons an began licking black orc blood from his gloves.

The dark lord spoke "Who are you to stand before my magnificence?"

The man replied "Oh, Me? most call me Alucard, others the Bird of Hermes, though I clam no name. I'm so sorry to keep you waiting, the souls of elves and wizards were to delectable to pass up."

Sauron's jaw made a crater when it hit the floor "The souls... of elves?"

Alucard bared his fangs "Oh yes, all of them, if it makes you feel any better I saved you for last" with that the armies of men and elves, orcs and trolls, and an innumerable number of beings from beyond the Middle Earth spewed forth from where Alucard's body had been. In his defense, Sauron managed to kill some of them. Just before his soul was about to flee the tatters of his mortal form, an armored fist gripped his throat, and fangs found his neck.

Dracula wiped his lips, and saw something gleam on the finger of his vanquished foe, a ring. He slipped it on and felt an almost overwhelming will clamp down onto his mind. Dracula told the ring "No, I believe I have had my fill of masters." and smashed Its will beneath his own, The Ring died without so much as a whimper. Vlad Tepes Dracul looked into the moonless sky and laughed.

so ya'll, by virtue of this scenario, have given Alucard The Ring, proceed to divide by zero.

And yeah, I'm an arrogant bastard, but to be fair I've never attempted to state otherwise.

[EvilElitest]

If I listen to my mum and get a cup of tea for her, am I a Pawn? By your definition, it seems so.

Yep. A willing pawn, and your being nice, but you aren't getting anything in return





If you're not prepared to read up the information you want to argue for/against beforehand, you're not prepared to debate. There are no excuses. If you did not understand, you ask. Then you state your opinion.
Actually i was using the wiki linked to me, which proved to confuse me even more because it is really badly organized.

You do not outright jump to an assumption and then state your opinion based on flawed facts, and then masquerade that under ignorance. If you're making an opinion based off incomplete information, you outright state that in your argument, instead of presenting your argument as backed up by fact when it isn't.




This much I understand: Supernaturals don't rule the world because of other Supernaturals. This is very similiar to the situation in Exalted, which is another Whitewolf game that features stupidly powered factions. Of course, one faction technically does rule the world (Solars in Exalted, and the titular faction in WoD), but they're locked in a stalemate.

If your right, that means the Technocracy doesn't have total contorl. Mind you, Rutee seems to disagree



Why can't you compare Sauron to the Technocracy? We can compare Warrior-Mages (Naruto) to mystic Elementalists (Toph) to Giant Monsters (Godzilla) to Necromancer Lords (The Lich King). We can do anything we like, it's a versus thread. :P
In terms of raw strength/power? Yeah, the technocracy wins. They have guns and stuff, big difference. In one aspect, yes they are apples and oranges, Sauron uses his evil domination and massive armies, different approach.



Sauron had 3000 years to corrupt the world. The Technocracy only really got serious during the Renaissance Era. That's 500-odd years. Are you now trying to claim that the Technocracy had the time advantage?

Sauron was an external force trying to conquer form outside, the Technocracy were already within the society when they started their take over. very different.


They created those things themselves. Those advantages are their own. Everything in our Modern World as you know it was made by the Technocracy. It's not unfair in any sense of the word, any more than Sauron having forged the One Ring is unfair. You put in effort, you get results. Fair's fair.

You miss my point, my point is that isn't corruption in the Domination sense (which the Wyrm can do apparently) that is corruption in the control sense. Very different


I would like to offer one point of original analysis now, instead of merely replying to other's points.

Sauron and the Technocracy both started from the same starting point: Medieval Society, where the world was vast and unconquered. They both had the same sort of extremely powerful enemies, who wanted to do them in (Supernaturals and Tradition Mages for the Technocrats, Elf Lords and miscallaneous Istari for Sauron). They both succeeded to a varying degree.

After 3000 years Sauron conquered 2/3s of the continent. The other 1/3 hates him with a burning passion, and marches with an army to besiege his fortress, despite his best efforts to break their ranks and sow discord. Before that, he had a greater empire, but that empire was defeated through force of arms.

The Technocracy, in the space of 400 years and Supernatural opposition, took over the whole of the known world. Every single aspect of the world is under their control, the average person doesn't even know that they exist. Their enemies have been driven into hiding, or exile.

I ask you, from a common starting point, two very different scenarios. Which was more successful, I ask you?

1. The Technocracy already had been part of the society when they started conquering it
2. The Technocracy used their vastly superior tech/magic to maintain control, not corruption (correct me if i'm wrong)
3. Sauron's threats was mostly the superpowered elves/men/dwarves, everyone else was on his side via corruption. When it comes to mentally dominating somebody, he wins. When it comes to having a vast secret hidden empire that has super tech, the dudes with guns win
from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

So, let's see here. Twisting someone to end up working for your goals > making entire cultures and groups of people believe that the world works one way.

huh.

EE, your now adding qualifiers to "domination" because you realize that in a straight out and out definition of domination, Sauron looses?

Domination is defined by Princeton:



social control by dominating
power to dominate or defeat; "mastery of the seas"


Notice social control there.

Which means Sauron still isn't the end all to domination.

Which is the point of where this conversation has gone.

If we are going to bring up mental domination, I call on the vast powers of mind controlling psychics. Sauron looses.

Thus, Sauron isn't the end all, be it social or psychological.

[StGlebidiah]

Why he didn't use them? Ah, yes, ghost army. The ghost army pretty much pwned BOTH his reserve armies.

Also there's that little but important moment where the supreme darklord in direct comand is killed by a chick and a midget with a +5 holy ghost touch dagger of undead bane.

Being nitpicky here, but you must be talking about the movies, because in the books, the ghosts disappear after defeating the Corsairs in port - they never actually showed up on the Pelennor Fields (the boats were subsequently filled with allies of Gondor who were from the port city that the Corsairs were docked at - those were the reinforcements that Aragorn led into battle at Gondor). Though I do commend you for actually getting it right with regards to who killed the King of the Ringwraiths.

[EvilElitest]

Face it EE, your young, I'm young, most of us on this board are rather young. If you were a cynic, you'd be stating what wasn't and doubting. You aren't doing that.

So there is an age requirement for cynicism now?



Not pawn can. Pawn does have a negative connotation. This is what your essentially doing; Saying a cuss word, and then defending yourself because "I think of it differently". Sorry, that doesn't work. Pawn is a negative description (As in a pawn on a chess board, of little value) that implies vast power imbalance. This is common language. To "pawn" something as well functions as a negative because it is often used in terms when money is desperate.
"Pawn-someone who is used or manipulated to further another person's purposes."
So basically, if you further another person's purposes, your a pawn. NOt necessarily negative, just often used that way. Compare to puppet
"Puppet- puppet, tool, dupe."
which is only negative. If i deliver my neighbors mail for free, i'm a pawn. If i obey every single command given to me by my teacher, i'm a puppet



1. No, your following the law out of an agreement of an implied and enforced social contract for being a citizen. Your are not a pawn because there is a mutual benefit between the social contract of individual and government. The ideals have very little to do with it. They are not pawns of each other. The use of pawn is very poor word choice.
2. Did I ever say you needed a liar for a pawn to be implied? Did I ever say I doubt what my city council does? Reply #2 here is coming from the left field and I'm unsure what your attempting to illustrate.

1. I'm still obeying the goverment's wishes. Good point with the social contract. Pawn might not be the best word, but it is still a usable word. If i join the army for the goverment, i'm working as their pawn. I might be getting something out of it, but still
2. You implied that your city council, order to consider its citizens pawns needs to lie. They don't. They just need to have people do stuff for them, which can be totally cool (they are the city council after all)


You know, I once said Warcraft III was different then LotR, though my point wasn't to hamper comparisons. I seem to recall you disliking that and insisting that on vs. threads, differences in content mean little.

Because different goals there. That was in terms of who would win in a direct fight. We know that WoD would defeat Sauron in a direct fight, that isn't hte issue. We already know this, they have guns, and nukes, and super magic. This is an argument over one specific power.


I believe the comparison here was to point out that Sauron wasn't all that great at manipulating in comparison to others. What's the point of a vs. thread if there is no comparison? I thought you lived for this stuff.

But the manipulation in question is totally different. none of the Technocracy (to my knowledges, which may be wrong) have been able to rally all the evil forces under one banner (shaky as that union might be).
Sauron can't erase people's memories that being said. Two different cases. In terms of who has better control over hte entire world? WoD, but hte means are different from Saurons.

And no, i live for cookies and lobster





Yes and no. The solars were the ones who were "meant" to rule the world(First age). But they actually have no to little control. When PC's are playing, more often then not, they are just trying to survive. In the case of Exalted in the second age, the weaker faction(by individuals), the dragon blooded are in control of creation (or more like 1/4th of it). But that's largely with the help of their shadowy supervisors who are more in charge of the world and are also in charge of heaven/fate/the stars/destiny.

Yeah.. Exalted is a bit weird noting that you can own destiny.
Yet again, no idea


No, for a while, I genuinely thought I was doing a bad job at explaining; Here's something you should know, though. Artemician's knowledge comes entirely from my posts/links. Clearly, I am not doing that bad a job if the only errors in his posts were minor nitpicks. You are failing to understand the words that are coming out of my mouth, and there is no legitimate excuse for this.
Organizing , it is a niffy skill. Artemician was kind enough to simply state all of the facts out in a list like, organized, and coherent fashion. I wasn't given a bunch of information that i had to cut and paste together. It was pretty clearly laid out in one post, a lot simpler.

Yes, there are likely millions of them. Non-Magi, within Mage, will not be well organized. Tradition Mages are.
and of these millions of supernatural creatures are at least somewhat countered or dominated by the Technocracy? Except for tradition mages of course and the Wrym


The fact htat it's an open war doesn't tell you that his control is less effective? And it's against significantly weaker people, with significantly fewer numbers.
Varies on your goal. Sauron want total domination, and doesn't want to be buggered with internal corruption (because he isn't within the system).


Given that there are seperate countries in the LotR-verse, I'm pretty sure you can't legitimately claim they're more organized then medieval Europe.
1. Medieval Europe wasn't very organized actually.
2. Allied countries, that until Sauron starting influencing them, had very few internal conflicts with each other


They were examples of manipulation as well, however; After all, I'm accepting "Manipulation by proxy" for the Technocracy, so it'd be unfair to ignore what Sauron managed to do with Theoden.
I thought we were talking about direct domination?


1. ...They don't integrate. Seriously. Integration denotes being truly a member of the society at large. Prior to the Renaissance and their flowering into the world at large, they existed outside of humanity, away from it. The members were once-human, sure, but they didn't really interact with society at large. The Tradition Mages are the ones who integrate.
2. Given that he's corrupted badder beings who existed for the direct purpose of stopping them, I'm on the Wyrm's side. He also does so with Magi of many stripes, even if they do know Spirit and Mind Magic (Which I imagine are the spheres that govern protection from corruption).
1. I think your misunderstanding what i mean by integration. They seem to have already been hidden from society, they already knew how it worked, and the took over from within. They weren't already outside the society, they knew generally how things worked and took over through both their magic and their knowledge.
2. Well, who has he corrupted and how did this corruption manifest? Details seem to be lacking.


Counter Plot Devices, primarily. Selrahc, in another thread, roughly went over combat between the eldest Vampires.
"<Discipline I can't remember> 10. I blow up Europe."
"Celerity 10. I dodge."
Or "Obfuscate 10. What Europe?
Any ingame reason for why they haven't totally dominated the world?


It's not sending you to the Plot Device section? 'cause it does for me.
hmm, must have been my computer then, sorry.


That at 10 dots in a Discipline, a Vampire is capable of doing literally anything that falls under that Discipline's purview. You can perform any physical action with Celerity. You can do any trick involving confusion and loss of perception with Obfuscate. You can see literally everything with Auspex. Etc, etc..
Examples of these super powers? You could destroy a building in on punch basically sort of thing?


Only because their goals involve 'helping' humanity.

and Sauron's involve dominating Humanity, different goals. Who runs the the Technocracy by hte way, one guy? A council?


Oh for Gods' sakes. Why is it this chestnut is dragged out when Sauron is clearly losing, and ignored when Sauron is 'winning', in the perception of Sauron supporters? If we have no intention of debating things that are different, we should just stop ANY Inter-media Versus Threads, ever. If it's not "Person from Universe A vs. Person from Person B from Universe A", by this argument, it shouldn't exist at all, and yet, /you do this/.
You misunderstand, vs. threads tend to take hte form of direct conflict. If sauron and WoD tried to duke it out, then WoD would most likely win. This discussion isn't a vs. thread discussion, it is a discussion of different tactics, and is getting to the point of "What would X do in Y situation, which he has never been in?" instead of "who would win" If Sauron had the same goal as the technocracy, was in our world, knew everything there was to know about the world, and had no techy rivals, could he also pull of such a domination? I have no idea, as he has never been in that situation. It is that sort of thing, it gets to the point where we honestly don't know if he could, he might have the capability but not the competence, he might not even bother, ect.


Unless you were serious about outright Middle-Earth-verse vs. WoD. Because it was never a question that the WoD tramples the middle-earth verse in an outright fight. Sauron can make Orcs n' trolls? That's nice. The Progenitors and the Verbena can make stuff that dwarfs those. Most decent Life Magi can. The One Ring? Mind/Spirit Magic. More powerful forces for mind-affecting-compulsions are employed on a daily basis, on a greater scale, to greater effect. Etc, etc.
1. WoD would defeat ME, i've already stated that
2. Minor nit pick, word of god says that the ring can't be destroyed by anyone. Might be claimed however


The question was manipulative skill, which would appear to very clearly be a point for the WoD over Sauron, and that would prove my point that Sauron has literally no field in which he can claim to be superlative over the rest of fiction.

1. It is like comparing French Fencing to Japanese fencing, they both devolved differently in different situations. Bad example i know, but still
2. No body has a field which they can claim to be superlative over the rest of fiction, to many other people. Hence vs. threads.


As much as I enjoy anecdotes about the crusades and various WoD trivia bits.
HOW THE #$%@! DID THIS BECOME A DISCUSSION OF HOW SAURON IS SIMILAR/DIFFERENT THAN MAGE WHETHER OR NOT THE VAMPS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CRUSADES?!?
most likely because WoD is more interesting, but what ever

from
EE

[Poison_Fish]

Wow, EE, you are really slow to respond.


So there is an age requirement for cynicism now?

EE, please read sentences for once in life. You don't have the attitude of a cynic, through and through. It has nothing to do with age. Instead of trying to come up with a smart alec response, I suggest you take everyone's advice continually through out most of the threads your involved on and learn to read them several times before responding. Then you might be able to decipher what statement is connected with what. For now, you happen to come up with non-sequiters, respond to statements with no purpose, and ignore the meaning behind what people are saying, then try to bring up a whole different argument. Such an example is in your very post here in response to cyncism. Another in the same post is this.


Yet again, no idea

It's in response to myself explaining exalted. Why do you waste post space?


"Pawn-someone who is used or manipulated to further another person's purposes."
So basically, if you further another person's purposes, your a pawn. NOt necessarily negative, just often used that way. Compare to puppet
"Puppet- puppet, tool, dupe."
which is only negative. If i deliver my neighbors mail for free, i'm a pawn. If i obey every single command given to me by my teacher, i'm a puppet

I highly suggest you look at the literary usage of the word pawn and then come back with the statement that it is a word with a neutral emotion scale tied to it. In the english language, it's rarely implied to be a neutral word. Just because you use it so, doesn't make it an effective word choice, rather it's very poor.


1. I'm still obeying the goverment's wishes. Good point with the social contract. Pawn might not be the best word, but it is still a usable word. If i join the army for the goverment, i'm working as their pawn. I might be getting something out of it, but still
2. You implied that your city council, order to consider its citizens pawns needs to lie. They don't. They just need to have people do stuff for them, which can be totally cool (they are the city council after all)

Again, it's not the right word. There are better ones. Citizen itself is the descriptor for the individual to the government. Pawn remains a word choice that is negative.


Because different goals there. That was in terms of who would win in a direct fight. We know that WoD would defeat Sauron in a direct fight, that isn't hte issue. We already know this, they have guns, and nukes, and super magic. This is an argument over one specific power.

That doesn't seem to change the comparison. Be it war or manipulation. We aren't comparing one sides war to another's manipulation. We are comparing manipulation to manipulation. So, too bad.

[Artemician]

I was hoping we'd drop the debating over semantics. Gods.

For the sake of argument, let's just use the word "Pawn" for now, even though it be wrong. It's pretty obvious that EE's not going to change his mind anytime in the near future, so let's just cede to his requests for the moment. It's not going to affect the discussion in any meaningful capacity anyway.


Exalted Setting

Others have explained it rather nicely.

Solars are, individually, the most powerful Exalts. If you throw the average Solar against a Lunar, a Sidereal, a Dragonblooded or a Terran, the Solar wins. Because he's just better.

However, in Second Age Exalted, a rather weaker race of Exalt, the Dragonblooded, are the dominant faction (although not by much). This is, according to Rutee, something to do with their 'Shadowy Supervisors'. I take this to mean that they're being manipulated by some kind of superior force somehow.


Domination/Manipulation/etc

I thought we were talking about Manipulation to begin with? Why are you now stating that we're debating about direct Domination?

Well, no matter. Dominating power is quantifiable directly in WoD. Elder Vampire with Manipulation 10 anyone?


10 Dots

Like he said;

10 dots in Obfuscate: You can conceal anything
10 dots in Auspex: You see everything
10 dots in Destruction: You rip out country-sized chunks of the land when you feel like it.

etc.


Why the Elder Vampires haven't taken over the world

The Mages are better.


Familiarity with society?

I seriously don't get what you're talking about. Sauron was one of the spirits who helped sing the world into existence, with his master playing an instrumental part. What's there that he doesn't know about the workings of the world?

Compared to Tradition Mages, who isolated themselves from the inferior (as they saw it) populace, Sauron is miles and miles ahead in his world-knowledge.


Different Goals

I don't care.

I can fight to save my people. I can fight to kill, murder and destroy because I like it. It doesn't matter. I'm still fighting.

[Rutee]

The Mages are better.
I think it's just that Mages have their name on the cover, to be honest. (Since Vampires rule in Vampire, like we went over).



I seriously don't get what you're talking about. Sauron was one of the spirits who helped sing the world into existence, with his master playing an instrumental part. What's there that he doesn't know about the workings of the world?

Compared to Tradition Mages, who isolated themselves from the inferior (as they saw it) populace, Sauron is miles and miles ahead in his world-knowledge.
I'm not sure with Tradition Mages (The whole point is that mages force their will and view of reality on the world), but Technocrats are on even grounds here, since the wrote the principles the world follows.

[Oslecamo]

So how exactly is the world still standing if all factions are so uber and constantly at war?

[Rutee]

Isn't that a strange question to ask, given that the planet survived the Cold War? MAD isn't appealing. Granted, it's not MAD for the technocracy per se, but they still ostensibly want to help unEnlightened. Killing off all of humanity would somewhat defeat the purpose of killing off all the Reality Deviants.

And Vampires just flat out die if there's nobody to feed on.

[Selrahc]

So how exactly is the world still standing if all factions are so uber and constantly at war?

It's not. :smalltongue:

The Old World of Darkness is over. The plotline for the games wrapped up with the destruction of the world.

BUT, it survived for a long time before it ended. Why? Well for vampire at least the end of the world is averted because the Elders aren't excersising their world shattering powers. They're biding their time, and accomplishing their goals. Or they're just sleeping. The end of the world occurs when several schemes come to fruition at once, and many powerful elders awaken. Then the whole shebang collapses.

In werewolf, they aren't as high powered at the top of the tree as vampires. So they're causing vast devastation, but not ending the world. And they're doing it far away from humans, either in the Umbra or out in the wilds.

And the highest powered mages don't even live on the planet. They have thier own pocket realms, and have basically evolved beyond the consensus. So the world destroying battles are done outside of the world.


Plus. Noone wants to destroy the world.

(Might be wrong about Mage and Werewolf. This is just my vague recolections of the situation)

[WalkingTarget]

The Old World of Darkness is over. The plotline for the games wrapped up with the destruction of the world.

I might be remembering it wrong, but wasn't one of the first events of the endtimes when the Technocracy used satellites focusing 3 suns' worth of daylight along with a magically-enhanced nuke to take out one of the Vampire elders? A side effect of which was driving an entire Vampire clan mad and punching a hole in the Umbra that 1) sucks Wraiths in, 2) lets Demons out, and 3) really pisses off the Werewolves.

Pure. Awesome.

If only all apocalypses could start so stylishly.