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Da Beast
2008-02-23, 08:35 AM
I was looking for options for a gestalt Beguiler//Warblade who I wanted to fight with a single rapier. I envisioned him as a pirate captain with a fencing style. The more I look at the options available the more it looks like I'll be relying on the beguiler levels to carry the build. I knew that two handed weapons are the best option followed by two weapon but I never realized just how screwed a warrior type with a single, one handed sword is (I tend to play mostly skillful types and casters). Is there anyway to make a viable swashbuckler? Should I just suck it up and do two weapon fighting (easy access to invisibility plus battle skill plus two weapon fighting plus time stands still (and maybe wounding weapons just for the hell of it) would be a lot of fun)?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 08:38 AM
I believe there's a "swashbuckler" class in CW, but basically D&D assumes that Big Swords win the day. Because they kill you deader than small swords, I guess.

"Duellists" wind up having to be utility characters in my experience. Most "single weapon" classes tend to be int-based, so they tend to get reasonable numbers of skills.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 08:40 AM
There are a bunch of Diamond Mind maneuvers that let you use a Concentration check to replace or augment your damage; I don't know precisely how well they hold up against a two-handed power-attacking damage-monkey build, but they basically have "swashbuckler" tattooed across their foreheads in glowing, neon smart-ink.

Xefas
2008-02-23, 08:46 AM
The only feat I can think of for this is Einhander from PHBII, and it isn't very good.

My advice is to ask your DM to homebrew a feat that will put 1h+empty-hand in line with wielding a 2h weapon. You're still at a disadvantage (because you had to spend a feat), but you get to be effective and play your concept.

Something like:

Deadly Duelist
Benefit: When wielding a one handed weapon in your primary hand and nothing in your off-hand, you are able to make more precise, disabling strikes against your opponent while at the same time offering a difficult target for your small weapon. You add both your strength and dexterity modifiers to damage rolls, deal double the amount of attack bonus sacrificed in damage with Power Attack, gain a +4 bonus on all disarm checks, and a +4 bonus on the roll to resist a sunder.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 08:50 AM
The only feat I can think of for this is Einhander from PHBII, and it isn't very good.

My advice is to ask your DM to homebrew a feat that will put 1h+empty-hand in line with wielding a 2h weapon. You're still at a disadvantage (because you had to spend a feat), but you get to be effective and play your concept.

Something like:

Deadly Duelist
Benefit: When wielding a one handed weapon in your primary hand and nothing in your off-hand, you are able to make more precise, disabling strikes against your opponent while at the same time offering a difficult target for your small weapon. You add both your strength and dexterity modifiers to damage rolls, deal double the amount of attack bonus sacrificed in damage with Power Attack, gain a +4 bonus on all disarm checks, and a +4 bonus on the roll to resist a sunder.

Looks fairly reasonable to me, particularly since the off-hand is actually really useful for that kind of thing.

As my fencing instructor tends to put it: the best weapon to have in your left hand is your opponent's.

raygungothic
2008-02-23, 09:38 AM
"As my fencing instructor tends to put it: the best weapon to have in your left hand is your opponent's"

I agree entirely, but is that even allowed in fencing these days? Or do you do one of the historical forms?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 09:41 AM
"As my fencing instructor tends to put it: the best weapon to have in your left hand is your opponent's"

I agree entirely, but is that even allowed in fencing these days? Or do you do one of the historical forms?

I do one of the historical forms - 17th century smallsword (along with a bit of other stuff to taste). We're allowed to move *sideways* and everything.

Quellian-dyrae
2008-02-23, 12:49 PM
There are a bunch of Diamond Mind maneuvers that let you use a Concentration check to replace or augment your damage; I don't know precisely how well they hold up against a two-handed power-attacking damage-monkey build, but they basically have "swashbuckler" tattooed across their foreheads in glowing, neon smart-ink.

Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike, specifically. With an item that boosts Concentration, you can amass some pretty tidy damage. In melee you'll be something of a one-trick pony, but hey, you're a beguiler too. In place of standard attacks, you have a (greater) insightful strike. In place of full attacks you have a (greater) insightful strike followed by a feint that then lets you use cloaked casting.

To diversify your melee capabilities, you may wish to consider three levels of Swashbuckler for the Int to damage ability. Pair that with your ability to get Int to damage when the target is flanked or flat-footed, and tactics like Greater Invisibility or feinting, and at the upper-mid-levels you can reliably add 2*Int to damage. You may even want to switch to a short sword and invest in either a Swordsage level or the martial study/martial stance feats. Grab Assassin's Stance, take Shadow Blade, now you are reliably adding +2d6+2*Int+Dex to damage. If DM allows Assassin's Stance to qualify, or if you want to take a rogue level, you could theoretically even take Craven and add your level on top of that. None of that works with your insightful strikes, and really, it works better with TWF than single weapon, but it can give you serious damage potential. You can use that to dispatch high-Will foes, spells on low-Will opponents, and Insightful Strike on undead, constructs, and similar annoyances.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 12:58 PM
Insightful Strike and Greater Insightful Strike, specifically.

Also the "X Nightmare Blade" strikes, though those increase rather than replace your base damage.

Dervag
2008-02-23, 01:01 PM
My question is related to the original post.

I know very well that this is a board of mechanical optimizers- and I do not mean anything bad or insulting by that. There are lots of people here who will give you the most efficient possible builds for any given goal, and tell you when those builds are weak relative to some other build that achieves some other goal.

But my question is not about optimization. I am not asking for the perfect character.

All I want is a fencer who won't actively embarrass himself as part of a party. One who can be part of a four or five person party that are likewise not mechanically optimal, engaging opponents of appropriate CR, and doing well enough that he isn't a useless piece of deadweight.

Is that achievable, or are fencer builds so bad that they are doomed to suck unless carefully optimized?

Renegade Paladin
2008-02-23, 01:06 PM
This swashbuckler rebuild (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/swashbuckler) and the Einhander feat from PHB2 will put you a long way towards where you want to go with this, I think.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 01:09 PM
Is that achievable, or are fencer builds so bad that they are doomed to suck unless carefully optimized?

I wouldn't say so at all.

One-handed fighting is clearly inferior to two-handed fighting because the latter immediately boosts your damage output and makes it very much easier to do so again, and again, via power attack exploitation. However, if you're not trying to keep pace with the best damage output you could achieve, you can do a respectable amount with a fencing style. The obvious way to go would be a Diamond Mind- and Shadow Blade-using swordsage, which wouldn't require particularly careful optimization.

I'm not sure how the options outside of ToB stack up, though.

raygungothic
2008-02-23, 02:23 PM
"I do one of the historical forms - 17th century smallsword (along with a bit of other stuff to taste). We're allowed to move *sideways* and everything."

Excellent! I suspected as much. It's been a while since I did modern fencing (and I never got very far with it) but I don't remember it involving anything so practical as seizing the opponent's blade :smallbiggrin: I do rapier now, so am familiar with the wonders of moving sideways... not that I'm very good, but making progress.

(I have nothing against modern fencers - really respect their athleticism, which is a damn sight better than mine - the older styles just seem to suit me better)

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-23, 02:27 PM
Duelist? Int to AC may not be used, but Precise Strike and Acrobatic Charge are pretty useful.

Saph
2008-02-23, 03:17 PM
Is that achievable, or are fencer builds so bad that they are doomed to suck unless carefully optimized?

If you're playing a gestalt Beguiler // Warblade, it's just about impossible to suck. You could pick your feats and manouvers at random and still be pretty powerful.

Without ToB, fencing-style builds are never going to be amazing, but they're fine as long as you aren't going for high damage. You'll never hit very hard, but your AC should be good, which means at least you won't be a liability in the front line.

- Saph

Annarrkkii
2008-02-23, 03:33 PM
You've got good synergy to work with when it comes to INT-based caster/duelist type. The swashbuckler rework online does look pretty tight, but if you can't convince your DM to let you use it, the original can work quite well.

I realize you didn't want anyone to just spit out an A-grade optimized build, so I won't try to make you a 20-level progression or anything, but I'll give you a couple of options that can help out one-handed specialists. No matter what you do, you won't be able to keep up on a damage output basis when compared to a half-orc charging build or the like, but you can certainly hold your own in combat with a few well-placed tricks.

Put your first levels into Beguiler (and Swashbuckler, if you take it). That way, when you do start grabbing levels of Warblade, you can start higher up the chain—with a better stance and stronger maneuvers than if you'd gone in at level 1.

Three levels of Swashbuckler are in keeping with your particular flavor, and have a good deal of merit. They get you Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and add your INT to damage—both are helpful, especially the later since you're already looking at some INT synergy with Beguiler.

Duelist, while thematically sound, might not be what you're looking for. You have to burn two feats, Dodge and Mobility, which are not awesome in any way. However, if you're willing to make the commitment, you can expand on that Dodge/Mobility burn, and increase your casting capabilities and combat strength with this puppy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). It gets you full BAB and almost full casting progression, as well as useful abilities, like blurred alacrity, while under the influence of your haste spell. Follow it all the way to seventh level and you can tack on Bounding Assault to actually make Spring Attacking a reasonable option. Qualifying for two PrCs is enough to justifying taking Dodge and Mobility, so go ahead and grab a few levels of Duelist to get an AC adjunct and another 1d6 to damage. I'd recommend, if you like this option, to go with either both or just Swiftblade—Duelist is not good enough to warrant Dodge and Mobility on its own.

As a fencer, you'll probably want to stick with the rapier. If you're willing to give it up, you can grab Shadow Blade, to tack DEX on to damage when you're in a Shadow Hand stance.

Dual-progression PrCs—Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage in particular—can really help out by letting you advance your BAB at a faster rate than Beguiler allows without losing much (occasionally even any) spellcasting progression.

There are many ways to go about making a duelist-type build effective. They never rise to par with true Gouda builds, but they can pretty powerful when built right. I like the idea of adding in arcane casting to make it that much more versatile.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 04:10 PM
Put your first levels into Beguiler (and Swashbuckler, if you take it). That way, when you do start grabbing levels of Warblade, you can start higher up the chain—with a better stance and stronger maneuvers than if you'd gone in at level 1.

It's gestalt, not normal multiclassing. (Also, you would still be stuck with a first-level stance for your first level of Warblade.)

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-23, 04:25 PM
I had quite a bit of fun with a straight rogue. I went the defensive route with him, and I think that's more fitting to the 'single-handed rapier fighter' anyway. I mean, how often do you see that single swashbuckler fighting off a dozen men with nary a scratch?

The trick is simply making sure you have those five ranks in tumble so you get your extra dodge bonus when fighting defensively and not being afraid to take a full-round defense when you're pressed. If you're willing to burn a feat on Weapon Focus: rapier and follow it up with Combat Expertise, you can take Single Blade Style (Dragon Magazine 301) which gives you an extra +2 AC when wielding nothing in your offhand. Since a buckler is strapped to your arm and normally allows you to wield a weapon as well, it's easy to convince a DM to allow the feat in conjunction with a buckler.

So with an 18 dex, we're already looking at AC 24 (4 dex, 4 armor (chain shirt), 1 shield, 5 dodge) when fighting defensively, which isn't too shabby at say... level 2.

There's some feats that allow you to make attacks of opportunity while in full defense, which is right up this build's alley. I also recall seeing feats which further increase your dodge bonus when fighting defensively, I'll see if I can find them for you.

Such a character is obviously not going to be as 'optimized' as the defense-specialist, but since you're a rogue, you have quite a bit of utility as well. Throw in the right attitude for the character and you'll be iconic. Rush into battle with utter confidence that you are the finest swordsman in the land, take on overwhelming odds! Have fun!

Kizara
2008-02-23, 04:32 PM
The only feat I can think of for this is Einhander from PHBII, and it isn't very good.

My advice is to ask your DM to homebrew a feat that will put 1h+empty-hand in line with wielding a 2h weapon. You're still at a disadvantage (because you had to spend a feat), but you get to be effective and play your concept.

Something like:

Deadly Duelist
Benefit: When wielding a one handed weapon in your primary hand and nothing in your off-hand, you are able to make more precise, disabling strikes against your opponent while at the same time offering a difficult target for your small weapon. You add both your strength and dexterity modifiers to damage rolls, deal double the amount of attack bonus sacrificed in damage with Power Attack, gain a +4 bonus on all disarm checks, and a +4 bonus on the roll to resist a sunder.

I think that feat is horribly overpowered and doesn't even make alot of sense.

1) Adding both modifiers, while making sense, is overpowered and there is also no precendent that I know of (outside of ToB, which is largley BS anyways) where a feat lets you add your Dex to damage rolls. Let alone two ability mods.

2) Power attack 2:1 doesn't make sense, as it is the exact opposite concept of this style. The 2Hers get 2:1 from the *BIG SMASH* effect, which is the opposite flavor/concept. Also, with the rest of this feat it is overpowered.

3) Now you get most of the benefits of both Improved Sunder AND Improved Disarm, in addition to the other things in this feat? (I'll grant that the avoiding AoO part of the other feats isn't mentioned here, which actually makes little sense, as if anything that is what you should be better at doing). Not to mention that this would stack with those feats, and that it doesn't make alot of sense for someone holding a weapon in 1-hand to be harder to Disarm (like a 2Her) or Sunder (I'm better at daintily poking you with my rapier, so you can't smash it now? Yea, that makes sense...).

This is what I'd reccomend for the feat:

1) Allow you to add your Dex instead of your Str to attack rolls.

2) You may subract a number from your attack rolls and add that value to both your AC (as a dodge bonus) and your damage rolls. This value cannot exceed your BAB.

3) Gain +2 to disarm checks.

Prereqs: Weapon finesse (1 handed melee weapon), Dex 15+, Int 13+ Combat Expertise.

Now, that feat is still really powerful, more alone the lines of a Tactical Feat in power, but its not totally unreasonable, has a few prereqs (so its a bit like a Tactical Feat there anyways) and gives you some substantial benefits.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 04:57 PM
1) Adding both modifiers, while making sense, is overpowered and there is also no precendent that I know of where a feat lets you add your Dex to damage rolls. Let alone two ability mods.

Shadow Blade does precisely that*. It's an unnamed bonus, so you still get Str to damage as normal. As a straight bonus, it's the same whether you're one-handed, two-handed, or dual-wielding, which is nice.

Really, the problem with a "fencer" is that the natural way to implement the flavour, if you have Power Attack for "I smash puny enemy now!", is with precision damage. And precision damage just isn't that good.

* edit: I should note: only when in a Shadow Hand stance, which means either a dip in Swordsage or a two-feat investment before you can bother taking it. Also, it's limited to particular weapons.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 05:10 PM
I think that feat is horribly overpowered and doesn't even make alot of sense.

It's not horribly overpowered, it costs you a feat, and gives you the mechanical benefits of using a two handed weapon, which you could just do anyway.


1) Adding both modifiers, while making sense, is overpowered and there is also no precendent that I know of (outside of ToB, which is largley BS anyways) where a feat lets you add your Dex to damage rolls. Let alone two ability mods.

Two-handers add 1.5 times their ability mod to their damage, and I think this is what it was designed to counter. The point here is to make a single weapon mechanically equivalent to a double handed weapon.


2) Power attack 2:1 doesn't make sense, as it is the exact opposite concept of this style. The 2Hers get 2:1 from the *BIG SMASH* effect, which is the opposite flavor/concept. Also, with the rest of this feat it is overpowered.

How is the "big smash" effect mechanically distinct from the "single, well timed thrust" effect. Both wind up doing more "damage" both make you less likely to "hit" within the abstractions of the D&D system.


3) Now you get most of the benefits of both Improved Sunder AND Improved Disarm, in addition to the other things in this feat? (I'll grant that the avoiding AoO part of the other feats isn't mentioned here, which actually makes little sense, as if anything that is what you should be better at doing). Not to mention that this would stack with those feats, and that it doesn't make alot of sense for someone holding a weapon in 1-hand to be harder to Disarm (like a 2Her) or Sunder (I'm better at daintily poking you with my rapier, so you can't smash it now? Yea, that makes sense...).

Actually it absolutely does. A light, one-handed weapon moves faster than a heavy, two handed one, so you can get it out the way of your opponent's blade faster.

D&D works on the actually rather unrealistic principle that big heavy weapons are in every way superior to small light ones, this is largely untrue. A rapier thrust kills you just as dead as a cut from a greatsword.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 05:20 PM
(outside of ToB, which is largley BS anyways)

Ngh... I'm not going to bother contesting that, but I will say that if, as the timestamps suggest, this was edited in in response to my post, it would have been nice if you had in any way acknowledged the error or engaged with the counterpoint?

I happen to think the feat suggested does grant a worryingly large number of bonuses at once, and is perhaps overpowered; but Shadow Blade and/or the basic concept of Dex to damage is not at all overpowered and is mechanically hugely useful for allowing finesse fighters to compete at all.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-23, 05:24 PM
I think that feat is horribly overpowered and doesn't even make alot of sense.

1) Adding both modifiers, while making sense, is overpowered and there is also no precendent that I know of (outside of ToB, which is largley BS anyways) where a feat lets you add your Dex to damage rolls. Let alone two ability mods.
1) ToB is not BS. And despite the existence of the Shadow Blade feat inside it, STR-based characters are *still* stronger. DEX to damage isn't as great as you'd think.
2) Adding both modifiers isn't overpowered. You can really only afford to crank one, which is a difference of a few points of damage at *most*.
3) The Champion of Corellon in Races of the Wild can also get DEX to damage. Kind of relatedly, swashbucklers get INT to damage, which stacks with STR.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 05:28 PM
1) ToB is not BS. And despite the existence of the Shadow Blade feat inside it, STR-based characters are *still* stronger. DEX to damage isn't as great as you'd think.
2) Adding both modifiers isn't overpowered. You can really only afford to crank one, which is a difference of a few points of damage at *most*.
3) The Champion of Corellon in Races of the Wild can also get DEX to damage. Kind of relatedly, swashbucklers get INT to damage, which stacks with STR.

Of course that means you can effectively be getting Str, Dex and Int, all added to your damage roll, but in a best case scenario you're going to have maybe 16, 14, 14 in the three of them, for a total of +7 damage. Which is only slightly higher than a Strength 16 character gets with a double handed weapon *anyway*, without using a Feat and a Class Feature to get it.

Kizara
2008-02-23, 05:28 PM
It's not horribly overpowered, it costs you a feat, and gives you the mechanical benefits of using a two handed weapon, which you could just do anyway.

If there was a feat that gave you all the mechanical benefits of using a reach weapon, or a bow, and you used a dagger instead, would the be reasonable to you? If so, I have nothing more to add.




Two-handers add 1.5 times their ability mod to their damage, and I think this is what it was designed to counter. The point here is to make a single weapon mechanically equivalent to a double handed weapon.
First off, just because "someone else gets to do it" doesn't make something instantly justified. But I see what you are getting at, although I would argue that having 2 abilities adding directly is possibly much better (but also possibly wrose, depending on the point buy really) then 1.5x one stat.



How is the "big smash" effect mechanically distinct from the "single, well timed thrust" effect. Both wind up doing more "damage" both make you less likely to "hit" within the abstractions of the D&D system.

It's called Power Attack not Dexterous Strike. Note in my remake of the feat, I don't use Power Attack anymore (also saving the character a feat). DnD has a mechanic for "well-aimed thrust", it's called Sneak Attack. Feats don't grant you Sneak Attack.


Actually it absolutely does. A light, one-handed weapon moves faster than a heavy, two handed one, so you can get it out the way of your opponent's blade faster.

Then why isn't a dagger very hard to disarm? (instead of very easy)
How about a sling? That's pretty small and easy to move.

Precendent doesn't support you at all, although your logic is sensible. Note in my remake of the feat I did include a small bonus to disarm checks.


D&D works on the actually rather unrealistic principle that big heavy weapons are in every way superior to small light ones, this is largely untrue. A rapier thrust kills you just as dead as a cut from a greatsword.

I think you are right in the claim of "every way superior" and that more, indirect, benefits should be available to a 1hander duelist style. You should have more situational awareness (dodge bonuses to AC, maybe initiative bonuses, uncanny dodge, evasion, etc). However, the simple fact is that in a 'heroic' game, where people don't die to a prick (unlike in real life), a greatsword does alot more damage and SMASH then a rapier. A dragon will certinally notice the difference.
Basically, I agree that the combat style should be more viable, especially at dueling other humaniod creatures, but it really shouldn't and wouldn't make since to have it be as potent as a 2Her at smashing things good.

Kizara
2008-02-23, 05:36 PM
1) ToB is not BS. And despite the existence of the Shadow Blade feat inside it, STR-based characters are *still* stronger. DEX to damage isn't as great as you'd think.
2) Adding both modifiers isn't overpowered. You can really only afford to crank one, which is a difference of a few points of damage at *most*.
3) The Champion of Corellon in Races of the Wild can also get DEX to damage. Kind of relatedly, swashbucklers get INT to damage, which stacks with STR.

I will also address kamikasei as well.

Yes, I did edit in response to your post. I didn't want to make a whole post to say as much, but I am willing to acknowledge that I did. I don't really have any counterpoint to what you said, as I don't much disagree with it and have also somewhat addressed it in response to Dan.

1) The effect ToB has on Str vs Dex based characters is not something I claim to be knowledgable about, and have no interest in arguing the point (it wasn't my point in the first place).

2) On further (non knee-jerk) reflection, I think I largely agree with you actually. I still think that such an ability should be a class feature, not a feat.

3) I forgot (never really looked closely anyway) about that class (champ of Corellon), but again, I said "where a feat grants you".

Swashbuckler was certinally intended to be exactly this fighting style, it really is a shame it didn't do it too well, and is fairly weak mechanically (compared even to a barbarian or a rogue). Personally, I think if you really want to homebrew something for this style, I would suggest tweaking and remaking the Swashbuckler class.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-23, 05:41 PM
If there was a feat that gave you all the mechanical benefits of using a reach weapon, or a bow, and you used a dagger instead, would the be reasonable to you? If so, I have nothing more to add.

If there was a sensible fluff justification, I say go for it.


First off, just because "someone else gets to do it" doesn't make something instantly justified.

No, but it makes it reasonably balanced.


But I see what you are getting at, although I would argue that having 2 abilities adding directly is possibly much better (but also possibly wrose, depending on the point buy really) then 1.5x one stat.

Depends on your stats. If they have 16 Strength, while you have 16 Dex 14 Strength, you both wind up with +5.


It's called Power Attack not Dexterous Strike. Note in my remake of the feat, I don't use Power Attack anymore (also saving the character a feat). DnD has a mechanic for "well-aimed thrust", it's called Sneak Attack. Feats don't grant you Sneak Attack.

D&D has several different mechanics for well aimed thrusts, sneak attack is one. It also has several different mechanics for attacking lots of different people (whirlwind attack, iterative attacks, cleave). It has lots of different mechanics for being difficult to injure (AC, Damage Reduction, Saving Throws).

D&D *excels* at having different mechanics for the same fluff, and different fluff for the same mechanics. Just look at all the different ways to describe Hit Points.


Then why isn't a dagger very hard to disarm? (instead of very easy)
How about a sling? That's pretty small and easy to move.

Precendent doesn't support you at all, although your logic is sensible. Note in my remake of the feat I did include a small bonus to disarm checks.

Daggers aren't easy to disarm because D&D suffers from terminal greatsword envy. To be childish for a second, in D&D, it is very much the size that matters, not what you do with it.


I think you are right in the claim of "every way superior" and that more, indirect, benefits should be available to a 1hander duelist style. You should have more situational awareness (dodge bonuses to AC, maybe initiative bonuses, uncanny dodge, evasion, etc). However, the simple fact is that in a 'heroic' game, where people don't die to a prick (unlike in real life), a greatsword does alot more damage and SMASH then a rapier. A dragon will certinally notice the difference.

This, however, is purely an artifact of the prejudices of the game system. People "don't die from a prick" because rapiers are mechanically ineffective so they get viewed as "pricks" by D&D players.

In actual heroic fantasy, pretty much the deadliest weapon out there is normally the dagger, particularly the thrown dagger (when have you *ever* seen somebody have a dagger thrown at them in a book or movie, and not have it do serious damage). Big choppy weapons actually tend to be far *less* dangerous to heroic characters, because heroic characters tend not to die from getting their limbs chopped off.

Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham was killed with a dagger. Shelob was killed or seriously wounded with a dagger. Saruman was killed with a dagger. Rapiers are the weapon of choice in swashbuckling adventure, and they kill people plenty dead enough thank you very much. It's big weapons that are worthless in heroic fantasy, not small ones.


Basically, I agree that the combat style should be more viable, especially at dueling other humaniod creatures, but it really shouldn't and wouldn't make since to have it be as potent as a 2Her at smashing things good.

The point is that "smashing things good" is not the only feasible interpretation of inflicting HP damage in D&D's abstract combat system. 214 HP worth of damage could represent a crushing blow from a Greatsword, or running a man through with a rapier.

kamikasei
2008-02-23, 05:42 PM
It's called Power Attack not Dexterous Strike. Note in my remake of the feat, I don't use Power Attack anymore (also saving the character a feat). DnD has a mechanic for "well-aimed thrust", it's called Sneak Attack. Feats don't grant you Sneak Attack.
...
However, the simple fact is that in a 'heroic' game, where people don't die to a prick (unlike in real life), a greatsword does alot more damage and SMASH then a rapier. A dragon will certinally notice the difference.
Basically, I agree that the combat style should be more viable, especially at dueling other humaniod creatures, but it really shouldn't and wouldn't make since to have it be as potent as a 2Her at smashing things good.

So, two-handed strength-based weapons must always have more damage potential than one-handed finesse-based ones, and should deal straight damage as opposed to precision damage dice. This seems to admit of only two solutions. One - finesse fighters are never going to be as effective as strength fighters. This is undesirable, at least in my eyes, and I would assume in the OP's as well. Two - strength fighters have to be penalized in some way in the areas where finesse fighters have strengths. This is probably going to be tricky and complicate combat a fair bit; I'm not sure how well it could be achieved without at least introducing weapon speeds. Even then, higher-level characters tend to be facing oversized or crit-immune foes so the strength fighter remains superior because it's his strengths that are being played to.

On the other hand, a human-scale greatsword has no very plausible reason to do so much more damage to a Gargantuan creature than a dagger. Furthermore, a high-level rogue with a dagger can be dealing out a whackload of damage in Sneak Attack even against giant, monstrous foes. So what's the problem, conceptually, with a duelist dealing comparable damage without using Sneak Attack mechanics?

AslanCross
2008-02-23, 05:46 PM
Is that achievable, or are fencer builds so bad that they are doomed to suck unless carefully optimized?

Not at all. In my game, our Ftr 2/Swashbuckler 3 was dealing more damage than everyone else for most of the game (until the player quit and I plotkilled her character). On the other hand, it may have been just because she was incredibly lucky with critical hits (which seemed to coincide with her RPing "I hit the hobgoblin in the groin.")

Da Beast
2008-02-23, 10:09 PM
I don't want this to turn into a pro/anti ToB debate. If you want to argue that the book is BS then start your own thread. Similarly, if you want to debate the balance of home brew feats start a thread in the home brew forum. Whether or not Xefas' feat is allowed in my game is between me and the DM.

That swiftblade class does look like fun, but unfortunately the gestalt rules forbid PrCs that are two class hybrids.

Anyone have maneuver or feat advice for a fencer or two weapon fighter? Arcane strike is a must and I know that iron heart surge is all kinds of usefull but beyond that I'm open to suggestions.