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View Full Version : an unarmed rogue, i smell trouble



clockwork warrior
2008-02-23, 11:36 PM
im planing on running a game, and one of the players has expressed that he wants to play a rogue ( technically, its an iron heroes game and he is a thieve, but i doubt that matters) and he wants to fight unarmed. the reasoning behind this is that he doesnt need to worry about concealing weapons and blowing his cover cause he is his weapon.

another part of it is a because of a third level ability where he can instantly start a combat with a standard action against a foe who doesn't feel him a threat, and/ or lets him take a full round action for a surprise round instead of the normal standard action ( or something along those lines) i still need to read it and re read it, but i think thats the gest of it.

the logic is sound, he doesn't have to worry about drawing a weapon, or having one found on him, and can instantly just punch someone. to me though, this just seems like a weird thieve, and i guess i dont really know what to think and i wish to hear what others thought of the build idea. he was going to take improved unarmed strike ( duh)

also, would it be plausible that as he grows in fame, people know of his hand to hand fighting talent and use that knowledge ( ie not being fooled by the fact that he isnt armed, and constantly watching him for aggressive movements, negotiating from a distance, treated as always armed and dangerous) would that be plausible, or is it just me looking for a reason to bust him?

Edan
2008-02-23, 11:45 PM
In my opinion build wise, he could just take a single level dip into Monk for the improved unarmed strike as a free feat, as well as a free bonus feet for 1st level. After that, taking the rest of the levels in rogue and rogue style prestige classes would be fine.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-23, 11:48 PM
In my opinion build wise, he could just take a single level dip into Monk for the improved unarmed strike as a free feat, as well as a free bonus feet for 1st level. After that, taking the rest of the levels in rogue and rogue style prestige classes would be fine.
as far as that idea goes, in the actual game we are playing, there is no monk class, but there are feats abound so that really doesn't matter

also, he had a question about a feat that lets you get bonus's from a certain weapon type, and he wants to know if you can apply that to his unarmed strikes ( he picks a weapon, and can choose any of his stats to determine what his damage for that weapon type is, not just str. ) can his unarmed strike work for this?

LibraryOgre
2008-02-23, 11:55 PM
im planing on running a game, and one of the players has expressed that he wants to play a rogue ( technically, its an iron heroes game and he is a thieve, but i doubt that matters) and he wants to fight unarmed. the reasoning behind this is that he doesnt need to worry about concealing weapons and blowing his cover cause he is his weapon.

Make it a variant; I'd suggest you make it a variant off the Monk class, instead of off the Rogue class, for simplicity's sake.

Lose the Lawful requirement, and the restriction on multiclassing. He gets a Rogue's class skills, but a Monk's skill points. He loses proficiency with all of the exotic weapons on the Monk list. Instead of Bonus Feats, he gets Sneak Attack (making him +2D6 at level 2, but afterwards falling far behind).

SadisticFishing
2008-02-24, 12:03 AM
Grab the feat Ascetic Rogue, and your rogue and monk levels will stack for unarmed damage. Rogue 2/Monk 2/Rogue +16 (18) is a very valid buid for a skillmonkey/unarmed guy. Gives you Wisdom to AC, and a LOT of dice of damage per swing (2d10+10d6 at level 20, assuming no feats and being medium). The feat also adds +2 to the save DC of stunning fist if you are sneak attacking. Flurry of Blows is good with that many dice! Grab a Monk Belt.

For feats:

-Weapon Finesse, if you want to be dex-y. Note: This will lower your final damage, as you won't be enlarged as awesome. Getting Shadow Blade makes the build better with Weapon Finesse, though you'd have to get a Swordsage level or 3 feats (Martial Study, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade)
-Ascetic Rogue (CAdv)
-Stunning Fist, bonus feat - don't give it up for something else.
-Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
-Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle)... give this up after level 15.

Other than that, crippling and/or staggering strike are both good. Ability Focus (Stunning Fist isn't that bad either.

Townopolis
2008-02-24, 01:05 AM
Hmmm, he's going to have to deal with the cruddy unarmed strike damage anyways, so I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to get away with it, and with adding weapon bond to it.

I wouldn't recommend against people picking up on his tactics if he gets a reputation. If he takes ranks in theatrics/disguise, he'll be able to use that to overcome it.

Maybe bluff checks as well, trying to look distracted or something (with penalties, of course)

Finally, just in case the low damage dice just turn out to suck, which I don't really expect them to, you might modify weapon bond so that in place of granting exotic weapon proficiency, it boosts his unarmed damage die.

Brawls
2008-02-24, 01:33 AM
the logic is sound, he doesn't have to worry about drawing a weapon, or having one found on him, and can instantly just punch someone. to me though, this just seems like a weird thieve, and i guess i dont really know what to think and i wish to hear what others thought of the build idea. he was going to take improved unarmed strike ( duh)

I don't know, he could be a dirty fighter. Stomps on your foot then hits you in the throat while your hopping around. Eye gouge! The ever famous kick to the crotch or kidney punch. There are plenty of hard hitting thugs that never took martial arts, so don't let the lack of a monk class dissuade the idea.


also, would it be plausible that as he grows in fame, people know of his hand to hand fighting talent and use that knowledge ( ie not being fooled by the fact that he isnt armed, and constantly watching him for aggressive movements, negotiating from a distance, treated as always armed and dangerous) would that be plausible, or is it just me looking for a reason to bust him?

A reputation is not necessarily problematic if his character will be traveling far and wide. If he stayed in the same town and everyone knew he was an accomplished unarmed fighter, well then I guess they would know to run away or keep their guard up. However, no one outside his home town will know what he looks like, even if he has such a reputation. If he doesn't use an alias or gives his name to opponents, well, he gets what he deserves. However, if he doesn't ever leave any survivors, no one will be around to build his reputation.:smallbiggrin:

Some of the feats you are talking about are the fighter's chain of weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved weap. focus, imp. weap. spec., and superior weap. focus, sup. weap. spec. You can apply these to natural weapons (fists) just as easily as to sword or bow. You will probably have to customize his feat progression to allow him access to (all of) these feats (as he probably can't get them using a rogue's normal feat progression). He will also want to get supwerior unarmed fighting, which allows you unarmed damage to increase with level range, similar to a monk's ability. I'd say drop his trap finding ability and some other thiefy things if he wants to go this route.

Aquillion
2008-02-24, 04:16 AM
Ascetic Rogue and two levels of monk may look tempting -- then he gets decent unarmed damage, and Flurry at least combines well with Sneak Attack when he does get a full attack off.

Also, sneak attack with shuriken using flurry of blows isn't a bad idea for a way of getting ranged sneak attack bonus twice. It's pretty much the only use for shuriken, really... It's still not overwhelming, but seeing as how if you're going monk/rogue anyway you just have to carry some cheap shurikens to have it as an option, you might want to point it out to them.


I don't know, he could be a dirty fighter. Stomps on your foot then hits you in the throat while your hopping around. Eye gouge! The ever famous kick to the crotch or kidney punch. There are plenty of hard hitting thugs that never took martial arts, so don't let the lack of a monk class dissuade the idea.
There are a few feats along that line to support unarmed sneak attacks, although most aren't that good. For instance, Ringing the Ear and Throat Punch let you deafen or silence an opponent, respectively, when you make an unarmed sneak attack on them.

Can't find any eye gouge feat, though...

Tengu
2008-02-24, 04:26 AM
When the majority of your damage comes from sneak attack anyway, it does not matter if your weapon deals 1d6, 1d8 or 1d3 base damage. He will face problems when the party gets rich enough for magic weapons - maybe he should switch to a Gauntlet when that happens.

I see absolutely no reason why would any DM who's not a total di*k do anything to make this character's life more difficult.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-24, 05:21 AM
I'd probably allow the player as an option to use UA Swordsage, and replace the manuevers/stances with Sneak Attack progression. That way he could advance his sneak attack at the same rate as his Unarmed damage progressed.

Also, recommend he look into buying a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks). That's 5 levels of Monk UA and AC progression all in one item. Though I always thought that item was a little unfair to people that actually play Monks. I mean, I can't buy a belt with 5 levels of wizard, fighter, barbarian or rogue on it, can I?

Ashes
2008-02-24, 06:00 AM
I would allow it. Iron Heroes lets you do some crazy stuff, and it all adds to the awesomeness of the system.
However, the trait that you were talking about (Weapon Bond, I think it's called) that lets you add the ability modifier of your choice to your weapon, I would call for justification in whatever score he wants to add.

Also people. This is not D&D. Recommending D&D fixes to this, does not help.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-24, 10:01 AM
thanks lordsmoothe, brawls, and ashes; that really helps. unfortunately the rest really doesn't apply im afraid.

the unarmed thing doesn't seem so bad, just kinda weird i guess. at first i was worried that he was trying to power game a lot, but after a nights thought, i guess it really doesn't matter, cause there wont be many times when he will need to be searched, or will get the chance so do his out of no where attacks, and the times that he does is his time to shine anyways, so why ruin it for him.

what seems odd to me now that i think of it, is that he wants to also be a quote "diplomocancer" taking a feat for increased diplomacy options. in iron heroes that diplo checks are higher than normal dnd, and i told him its not just gonna be rolls, that he will have to also rp it out ( the rolls help me determine how effective he is at delivering what he is saying) and i directed him to the giants diplo fix that i plan on using.

huh, turns out that the weapon bond thing ( that is the name of it) is a trait, and doesn't even take away from his feats.

endoperez
2008-02-24, 10:13 AM
I'd just like to point out that an unarmed person confidently walking into a battle could make wary people to be suspicious. If the thief actually carried a weapon around, people would expect him to use it. Iron Heroes guys wouldn't need spesific weapons to combat spesific types of enemies, but I quess he would like something that could be used at a distance against grapplers or something. Even a ranged weapon could be used to give people the wrong idea (let's send a melee guy against that archer etc).

clockwork warrior
2008-02-24, 10:23 AM
that actually makes a lot of sense, especial to make people feel at ease around him " what, you dont trust me, well here i will give you my sword, do you feel safer now?"

the way this is going out, he will either make a very awesome thieve, or he is going to suck. this is his first time playing a rogue-ish character, and i have seen some of my other players try it, one in particular who just treated the ninja class as a fighter with sneak attack and that didnt work out well...

hmmm it will be interesting to watch the thieve and executioner fighter together ( both sneak attacking classes. they will either compete with one another, or possibly work together and flank to get that double dippen sneak attack goin.... thats going to be frightful :smalleek:

Doresain
2008-02-24, 10:56 AM
an executioner class you say? this "iron heroes" intrigues me, please go on

Person_Man
2008-02-24, 11:13 AM
Hmmm, he's going to have to deal with the cruddy unarmed strike damage anyways, so I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to get away with it, and with adding weapon bond to it.

Agreed. If a PC has a weak but interesting idea, I always try to support it as a DM. It sounds like your player has a great idea. Let him run with it. Avoid punishing him for doing something fun.

Also, its impossible for him to have a reputation for using a tactic if no one survives combat encounters with the party. Someone has to live, and go and tell people about it. Even then, Rogue-ish adventurers pretty much all dress alike anyway, so it'd be hard to warn others about him unless he has a very distinct appearance, unique armor, etc.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-24, 11:14 AM
an executioner class you say? this "iron heroes" intrigues me, please go on

well, the executioner is a fighting class thats based around precision damage, they are trained to strike vitals and stuff. kind of a battle rogue if you will.

as for iron heroes, i like it. its a d20 game that is very low magic, and while a little more complicated cause of some new features, i find the game very close to a swords and sorcery style pulp action game ( at least thats how i plan to run it) im also just a huge fan of monte cook, who "presents" this book ( not sure if he actually made the book or not)



Agreed. If a PC has a weak but interesting idea, I always try to support it as a DM. It sounds like your player has a great idea. Let him run with it. Avoid punishing him for doing something fun.

Also, its impossible for him to have a reputation for using a tactic if no one survives combat encounters with the party. Someone has to live, and go and tell people about it. Even then, Rogue-ish adventurers pretty much all dress alike anyway, so it'd be hard to warn others about him unless he has a very distinct appearance, unique armor, etc.

i support the idea, im not actively seeking do bring him down. it all comes down to just how he is playing the character i guess. im oking the weapon bond and stuff for him, i planed to anyways but wanted some second opinions.

Overlard
2008-02-24, 02:46 PM
My "unarmed" rogue wears enchanted leather gloves (gauntlets) studded with metal - adamantine on her right hand, alchemical silver on her left. She naturally has Improved & Superior Unarmed Strike.

For other foes that her fists won't cut it against, she has cold iron sleeve blades with weapon triple-capsule retainers attached.

Of course she doesn't get the damage output of a 2HF attacker, but she's flavourful and fun to play.

Townopolis
2008-02-24, 03:00 PM
an executioner class you say? this "iron heroes" intrigues me, please go on
IH Classes
Archer: Eats shoots and leaves
Armiger: Hit me baby, one more time (also: only full plate class)
Berserker: Wears no armor, beats people up.
Executioner: Basically an assassin.
Harrier: Run run run, as fast as you can, I'll still stab you in the face.
Hunter: The only backseat driver you'll ever love.
Man-At-Arms: If you don't like any of the entres, try the buffet.
Thief: They call me honest Bob for a reason.
Weapon Master: Hiten Mitsurugi style umbrella twirl!

clockwork warrior
2008-02-24, 04:35 PM
lordsmoothe, you seem to know a good deal about the game, and this is my first time running it, so i would like to run some things by you

as it stands, the players are going to be:
1 armiger
1 berserker
1 executioner
1 man at arms
1 thief

that is two sneak attackers in the group, and im wondering just what effect that will be on the game, because it seems that they will end up being the heaviest damage dealers compared to the other party members, and this worries me ( first that they will be able to rape whatever i through at them, and second that it will take away from the other players) your thoughts on this?

Prometheus
2008-02-24, 08:13 PM
All rogues are just a concealed weapon and a quick-draw away from going from a non-threat to an enemy, I don't see going unarmed as anything overpowering or really any different from a regular rogue, except that the will have to take unarmed feats and won't have magical weapons.

The proposed Monk-Rogue hybrids are a good idea, and makes sense both mechanically and given the character sketch.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-24, 08:54 PM
no magic items

no monks

and the unarmed thing doesnt make a big difference ( though he wont be able to really mastercraft his body unless he uses gauntlets, but that defeats the purpose of not carrying a weapon)

i was mostly just asking about a ( closest thing to a ) feat that is for weapons, as well as just kinda sleep ranting/talking (not really sure what point i originaly was trying to make, i was very tired)

Doresain
2008-02-25, 12:26 PM
ya know, ive been wanting to do a low magic d20 game...this iron heroes sounds really cool, i might have to try it out sometime in the near future

clockwork warrior
2008-02-25, 01:03 PM
from my reading of the books, it seems very good

there is magic in the game, but its not just a common place thing. you fuel spells with a daily mana pool( though with fortitude saves, you can cast more, but if you fail the strain give you ability damage in every score i think) , and when ever you cast a spell you roll a channeling check, and if you fail the spell backfires ( its effects are not as requested) and if you fail hard enough, it has negative effects.

take there equivalent of mage armor.
when casted right, it adds to ac to repel attacks, if you fail the channeling, you instead give the benefit to a random person within 100 feet or something ( including enemies) and if you completly fail, you get the opposite that actually attracts attacks to you more, taking away from ac

Doresain
2008-02-25, 04:25 PM
well i very rarely like to play full casters (other than the dread necromancer), so a game that sounds like magic isnt full of world ending spells would be nice...im tired of trying to keep up with the casters of the party when im a fighter or rogue >:(

clockwork warrior
2008-02-25, 11:00 PM
thats one of the biggest reasons i picked the game up, i really dont like high magic worlds.

before this, i found a think made to help make games more into the sword and sorcery style that i like, and with iron heroes is like they do that for me.

heres a link to what im talkin about: http://www.swordandsorcery.org/toolkit.asp

clockwork warrior
2008-02-26, 10:23 AM
so far, im noticing that three of my five players are taking the trait weapon bond. this kinda concerns me. first, it means that they are just focusing on one stat which makes them very 1 dimensional, and two, if they ever need to us another weapon they are screwed.
and example:

the armirgers stats
str: 12
con: 20
dex: 14
int: 14
wis: 10
cha: 8

his traits are tough as iron (+2 con, -2 dex) and weapon bond. obviously he is going to choose constitution for his weapon bond, choosing longsword ( thats the weapon he has on his character sheet)


now, what happens when he is fighting, say, skeletons and he needs a bludgeoning weapon and he is screwed because he cant hit a deng thing now.

i guess i feel that its almost a form of min maxing, cause he was able to crap out his strength, and yet still get +5 to hit and damage.

Riffington
2008-02-26, 11:53 AM
s
str: 12
...
crap out his strength

12 = crap out? :smallfrown:

But it sounds to me like he's made a suboptimal choice, and then took a trait that mostly makes up for it.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-26, 12:18 PM
other way around, he took the trait knowing that he could use another stat instead of spreading his points out more

but upon reflection it does really put him at an disadvantage, cause i was thinking that a lot of other combat tactics will not be nearly as feasible for him, like grappling and tripping, and i plan on having enemy's who do these.