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Starbuck_II
2008-02-24, 01:31 PM
Hey, I've optimized my character for survival (it is a instinct for me, makes sense for characters in a dangerous world). Anyway, do you think 38 is enough AC to help tank? I want to help tank.

There is a 1/2 Celestial Fighter in party, but I feel he will be more like a barbarian (as he is not going in heavy armor): strong at hitting, but AC not very high.

Anyway, is my AC high enough? I thought I'd help after I get a round of buffing (displacement, mirror Image, Shield, etc).

Xyk
2008-02-24, 01:39 PM
well, I picked the only CR15 monster in the monster manual and it has +14 to attack. You should be fine with 38 AC.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-24, 01:45 PM
Well, let's take a look at attack bonuses of various monsters - let's look at CR 17 (the ones that will theoretically be giving the entire party a hard time), just for grins....

Aboleth Mage: +18, needs a nat-20 (5% chance of a hit, but he's a mage, so that doesn't matter)
Old Brass Dragon: +32, needs a 6 (75% chance of a hit)
Mature Adult Bronze Dragon: +31, needs a 7 (70% chance of a hit)
Marilith: +25, needs a 13 (40% chance of a hit)
Formian Queen: Doesn't use physical attacks.
Frost Giant Jarl (8th level Blackguard): +30, needs an 8 (65% chance of a hit)
Very Old White Dragon: +35, needs a 3 (90% chance of a hit).

I'm going to say "no", I think.

The Glyphstone
2008-02-24, 01:45 PM
You'll definitely be hard to hit/hurt. However, unless you have plenty of levels in Knight and/or the Goad feat, you won't be very useful as a "tank", because D&D doesn't really support that sort of play...Knight and Goad are the only way to force monsters to attack you. Unless you're fighting something mindless or an animal, the monster you're "tanking" will likely give up after repeatedly failing to hit you and go after the squishy barbarian or casters in the group who can be hurt much more easily.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-24, 02:02 PM
Hey, I've optimized my character for survival (it is a instinct for me, makes sense for characters in a dangerous world). Anyway, do you think 38 is enough AC to help tank? I want to help tank.

There is a 1/2 Celestial Fighter in party, but I feel he will be more like a barbarian (as he is not going in heavy armor): strong at hitting, but AC not very high.

Anyway, is my AC high enough? I thought I'd help after I get a round of buffing (displacement, mirror Image, Shield, etc).

At those sorts of levels, you'll need better saves/immunities more than armour class. Also, what's your touch AC?

Jacob Orlove
2008-02-24, 02:06 PM
Well, let's take a look at attack bonuses of various monsters - let's look at CR 17 (the ones that will theoretically be giving the entire party a hard time), just for grins....

Aboleth Mage: +18, needs a nat-20 (5% chance of a hit, but he's a mage, so that doesn't matter)
Old Brass Dragon: +32, needs a 6 (75% chance of a hit)
Mature Adult Bronze Dragon: +31, needs a 7 (70% chance of a hit)
Marilith: +25, needs a 13 (40% chance of a hit)
Formian Queen: Doesn't use physical attacks.
Frost Giant Jarl (8th level Blackguard): +30, needs an 8 (65% chance of a hit)
Very Old White Dragon: +35, needs a 3 (90% chance of a hit).

I'm going to say "no", I think.
That's a little misleading. The advantage of a high AC against, say, those dragons, is that they can't Power Attack for +20 damage per hit against you (and with 6+ attacks a round, that's a huge advantage). You'll still get hit for significant damage, but you'll be saving the fellow party members from a much worse fate (assuming, as mentioned above, that you have some way of directing enemy attacks onto you).

That said, 38 is a little low. A good rule of thumb for high levels is that your AC should be more than 25+level if you want to be hard to hit.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-24, 02:24 PM
i have never seen a character with AC +level in any of my games.

the dragon thing is totally misleading, a dragon needing 7+ to hit you IS good AC! every dragon of CR equal to level has always needed a 2+ to hit in my games!
however i feel the idea of tanking in dnd to be difficult unless you have a means to force an enemy to attack you, as stated above.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-24, 02:39 PM
Tanking with AC is, without the "1's as -10's and 20's as 30's" variant rule, a bad idea, period. I'd also recommend that, if you want to create an AC monster, take levels of swordsage for Baffling defense. With that and the variant rule, you are plain unhittable.

Hal
2008-02-24, 02:40 PM
So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

Townopolis
2008-02-24, 02:42 PM
On the subject of tanking, I would like to relate a piece of wisdom I have discovered recently...

Miss chance is better.

Sornas
2008-02-24, 02:55 PM
So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

Well, I'm not sure how you would go about doing that either, but I can tell you that Bracers of Armor and regular armor don't stack. ^^;

Starbuck_II
2008-02-24, 02:59 PM
So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

1/2 Dragon (4) +1 Improved Nat + 1 Actolyte of Skin + 3 NA amulet effect= +9 natural
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt= +9
10 Base
17 Dex (inherent 2 from acolyte, 2 gloves of Dex , +1 level)= 22 Dex (+6 dex mod)
+1 insight (ioun stone effect)
Ring of Protect +3 (deflection)
If I cast shield +4 shield bonus
=+38. FF 31. Touch 20.
Without shield: 38
With shield: 42

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-24, 02:59 PM
Easy. Wisdom to AC, a shield spell, high dex.

Chronos
2008-02-24, 03:03 PM
I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30.First of all, Bracers of Armor and regular armor don't stack (they both give an armor bonus), but a Ring of Protection will (deflection bonus). Second, you can get better armor than +10 AC, if it's magical: Plate mail +5 and a heavy shield +5 would be +20. Third, there's dexterity bonus to AC, and fourth, there are many ways of getting other ability modifiers added to AC (Wis for a monk, ninja, or swordsage, Int for a duelist or a few other classes, etc.). Finally, there's defending weapons (potentially another +5), and dodge bonuses of various sorts (the Dodge feat, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, etc.).

kamikasei
2008-02-24, 03:05 PM
So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

A ring of protection comes to mind, as does full plate with dex 12 (+9 there) plus any enhancements on the armour, and a heavy shield (+2), again with enhancement. Can't be bothered crunching the WBL but you'd be looking at about +3s on most things, I think, so that's +11 armor +1 dodge +5 shield +3 deflection +3 natural... that's 33 AC without a CL-boosted magic vestment or any custom items granting bonuses of other types.

...damn ninjas shouldn't be able to sneak up on me so heavily armoured. Also, I completely forgot that you can mithral up your armour for an extra +2 dodge. Also forgot that the amulet of natural armor grants an enhancement bonus to your natural armor, not an actual natural armor bonus, so it can stack.

I think this is an interesting illustration of what sets optimizers apart, though. It seems perfectly obvious to just be a half-dragon if you want a good AC... :smalltongue:

Raolin_Fenix
2008-02-24, 03:06 PM
Best armor is mithral platemail. +8 bonus, +5 enhancement, +3 dex, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor. Throw in a +5 tower shield if you have proficiency, that comes to something like 175,000 GP in value, or something. Also comes to 36 without a shield, 40 with a Shield spell, or 45 with a the tower shield.

So yes, 38 is okay for level 15, but at the same time, it could easily get better. For merely money, of course. I'm not sure what your build is, but these are just stats for a random fighter I just pulled out of my butt.

Chrismith
2008-02-24, 03:09 PM
So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

Full plate +5 (13 total)
Heavy Steel Shield +5 (7 total)
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5

With just those four items, you're looking at 40 AC. That's about 3/4 of a level 15 character's WBL, but that's not unreasonable if you really want to max out your AC. And there are other ways to boost your AC, these are just the standard items.

Edit: Wow, an entire ninja army snuck in while I was looking up prices...

Fiery Diamond
2008-02-24, 03:09 PM
Let's see...what's the highest AC for a human fighter (I'm using this so I'm not worrying about wisdom or size bonuses to AC and such) that I can come up with.

Automatic-10
Armor(+5)- +13
Amulet of Natural Armor- +5
Ring of Protection- +5
Tower Shield(+5)- +9
Dex Bonus(highest possible while using Tower Shield)- +1
--Maybe get Dodge bonuses from something--
Total - AC=43, with possibility of buffs if they provide dodge, insight, or unnamed bonuses.


-Fiery Diamond

Edit: super ninja'd

Raolin_Fenix
2008-02-24, 03:15 PM
Let's see...what's the highest AC for a human fighter (I'm using this so I'm not worrying about wisdom or size bonuses to AC and such) that I can come up with.

Automatic-10
Armor(+5)- +13
Amulet of Natural Armor- +5
Ring of Protection- +5
Tower Shield(+5)- +9
Dex Bonus(highest possible while using Tower Shield)- +1
--Maybe get Dodge bonuses from something--
Total - AC=43, with possibility of buffs if they provide dodge, insight, or unnamed bonuses.


-Fiery Diamond

Edit: super ninja'd

Don't forget to mithral the shield, for another +2 max dex.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-02-24, 03:27 PM
If you want to tank in D&D, either take 1 level in crusader (or just go crusader full, D10 HD + the ability to cast healing spells when hitting somebody, and that ability to block attacks on your allies= win) or take a couple of feats and get the crusader stance Iron Guards Glare. it makes it so that if you are adjacent to an enemy and that enemy attempts to attack someone else, they take a -4 on that attack, and they are aware of the effect. So unless you are fighting mindless zombies all of the time, this is very good.

Edit: Oh yeah, crusaders also have the ability to ignore damage temporarily, I think it would be 20dmg max at your level.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-24, 03:48 PM
If you want to tank in D&D, either take 1 level in crusader (or just go crusader full, D10 HD + the ability to cast healing spells when hitting somebody, and that ability to block attacks on your allies= win) or take a couple of feats and get the crusader stance Iron Guards Glare. it makes it so that if you are adjacent to an enemy and that enemy attempts to attack someone else, they take a -4 on that attack, and they are aware of the effect. So unless you are fighting mindless zombies all of the time, this is very good.

Edit: Oh yeah, crusaders also have the ability to ignore damage temporarily, I think it would be 20dmg max at your level.

While I have the BoNS/ToB, I have yet to ask the DM to allow it.
I feel it would be too much of rule change (Fighters actually useful/fun and not one trick ponies!)
He still thinks Duskblades are overpowered. I fear he'll think worst of ToB.
Oh and he also has an irrational fear of psionics (they are banned too).

So I'm left with Complete 1.0 (warrior, arcane, divine, adventurer), Core, Item Compendruim (1/2 the book, not all), and 10 spells okay'd from Spell Compendruim (very little else, I finally at least got him to understand they are reprints not new spells). PHB 2 also.

I can't be Lawful so no Knight either.
Plus, it wouldn't fit my characer concept.

I'm currently a 1/2 Dragon Level 12 character (ECL 15)
7 Warlock/2 Acoltye of Skin/3 Wild Mage
And my character has been taught all his life he was the village guard (it was a good job at low levels) so he thinks he can fight.
But all his life it always took more to improve even a little. His friends learned new stuff all the time (leveled faster), but he has to work twice as hard to improve a tiny bit.
A little like Naruto (he probably has a level adjustent as well come to think of it).

I have 22 Str (8 from 1/2 Dragon, 2 from magic item) so I can reasonable fight.
Warlock gives DR 2/cold iron (who uses it? It costs more to enhance magic weapons)
So effectively, I have DR 2 usually.

I can fly (warriors need to fly at high levels), I can see invisible stuff, darkvision, dispel magic (not greater), curse people (Bestow curse), and can trap people in tentacles for battlefied control.

If I buy the ring of freedom of movement: Than I could concievably do battlefield control without being affected by the ability... hmmm (save up I guess).

Hal
2008-02-24, 03:55 PM
Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-24, 03:58 PM
Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

Shield applies against Incorporal touch attacks...
Anyway, I have no shield so Shield spell is helpful. I currently use a Longspear. I have 10 scrolls of Shield at moment.

kamikasei
2008-02-24, 04:11 PM
Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

You can have an armor bonus, a shield bonus, a natural armor bonus, and enhancement bonuses on these. You can have multiple stacking dodge bonuses. You can have a deflection bonus, an insight bonus, and a size bonus; I don't think you can have enhancement bonuses on these. I'm not sure whether luck, sacred, etc. bonuses are available. Then you can have unnamed bonuses, such as a monk's Wis to AC, most of which will stack.

And as Starbuck points out, you could throw on a mage armor or shield which won't increase the total AC but will boost your protection against certain sort of attacks in the short term.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-24, 04:25 PM
Tanking at high levels is almost completely divorced from AC for everything except no-account mooks, one of the many reasons the melee classes get boned at these levels. Saves, Immunities (Energy type, status condition, Ability Drain/Damage, Mind Affecting-effects, Death effects, Petrification/Polymorh/Transmutation, Criticals/Sneak, Grappling/Slowing, etc....), SR, MISS CHANCE, DAMAGE REDUCTION. All these are far, far more important than AC. This is why Undead and Elementals get such a CR boost at the high level monsters end, because they're immune to so damn much.

By high level CR appropriate opponents are liable to either hit or miss with a wide gulf inbetween, gone are the days of roll to hit, roll to damage, deduct from hp as the main source of PC death. Now it's saves and sucktastic conditions.

Indon
2008-02-24, 04:27 PM
On the subject of tanking, I would like to relate a piece of wisdom I have discovered recently...

Miss chance is better.

Miss chance is good, but it doesn't prevent usage of Power Attack like higher AC does.

I would recommend getting a bit of miss chance, though. You could get miss chance or its' equivalent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) magically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm), or you can rely on more mundane sources such as cover/concealment (which can also be enhanced magically). Don't put too much stock in it, though.

Pyroconstruct
2008-02-24, 04:52 PM
I'd be more concerned, as others have mentioned, about having a way to force enemies to pay attention to you. 38 AC is OK, but it's worthless if you're just going to be ignored by enemies. Unless you've got some sort of crazy trick hidden in your hat that I'm missing, you don't have a way to either stop people from just avoiding you (either by taking an AoO, or tumbling, etc) or ignoring you while they beat down your allies.

Frosty
2008-02-24, 05:26 PM
The way to force enemies to pay attention to you is to do 200 damage a round with uber charging. If the DM rps the monsters out correctly, they'll definitely see the charger as a threat.

Chronos
2008-02-24, 05:34 PM
Of course, tanking also depends on your terrain. If you're in a five-foot-wide dungeon corridor, all you have to do to block enemies is just stand there. And even if the hallway is wider, you can somewhat block off as much as you can reach, using attacks of opportunity, readied attacks, and trips and similar effects.

But if you're in a wide-open field, yeah, there's not much you can do to stop intelligent enemies from just going around you.

nargbop
2008-02-24, 05:34 PM
I played a level 20 Dervish/Tempest optimized for AC last game, and got 33 just standing around. If she moved first (almost always did) she started applying feats and class features and got to 46 easy, and higher if she traded away BaB with Improved Combat Expertise.
I found in that game that AC is really not enough at high levels. Good saves are very important, and playing tactically VERY important.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-24, 05:39 PM
The way to force enemies to pay attention to you is to do 200 damage a round with uber charging. If the DM rps the monsters out correctly, they'll definitely see the charger as a threat.

And the Flying, ethereal, incorporeal, blurred, mirror imaged, DRx, Elusive Target, contingencied, Illusion using, range-fighting enemy is challenged by this exactly how? By the time you're in the high levels the things you're facing either have a way of managing a high damage output character or they would have long since been turned into a long red streak.

sikyon
2008-02-24, 05:58 PM
For a mere 140000 gold, you can have 28 +1 AC untyped no body slot custom magic items.

Person_Man
2008-02-24, 06:03 PM
As others have mentioned, at high levels you want multiple layers of defense.

High AC, high touch AC, Uncanny Dodge, Displacement/Miss Chance, Energy Resistance or Immunity, Evasion, Mettle, high Saves, SR, DR, Fast Healing, Immunities, and most importantly - battlefield control.

What's your build anyway? What books can you use? It's a lot easier to optimize what we know, rather then give you generic advice.

Talya
2008-02-24, 06:53 PM
Bah. I tank with my 14th level sorceress at 27 AC all the time!

Uh...of course, that's with Mirror Image and Improved Blink active, nevermind.

(God forbid we ever run into a big bad melee monster with truesight.)

Starbuck_II
2008-02-24, 07:16 PM
As others have mentioned, at high levels you want multiple layers of defense.

High AC, high touch AC, Uncanny Dodge, Displacement/Miss Chance, Energy Resistance or Immunity, Evasion, Mettle, high Saves, SR, DR, Fast Healing, Immunities, and most importantly - battlefield control.

What's your build anyway? What books can you use? It's a lot easier to optimize what we know, rather then give you generic advice.

10 Warlock/2 Acoltye of Skin/
I'll include magic/other bonuses to stats:
Str 22/Dex 22/Con 24/Int 14/Wis 10/Cha 18
Saves (total): 17/17/14
Base: 8/+3. Base Melee attack +14/ Base Ranged +14
Hp (unofficial) I haven't rolled these yet (for last 2 levels) but assuming I take average: 137.
Total AC 37. FF 31. Touch 19. With Shield: 41. Init: +6
Speed: 30/Fly 30
Weapons:
1) Eldritch Blast: Hit + 13, 6d6, my usualy hit weapon
2) +1 Longspear: Hit + 14, 1d8 + 10, my reach weapon.
3) Bite: Hit +13 Damage +6, 1d4, my non reach weapon
Skills:
UMD 22/24 with scrolls
Conc: +22
Know (Planes) + 11
Spellcraft: +17
Know(arcane) +9
Tumble (cross skill) + 17, could be useful
Bluff +5
Sense Motive +4
Diplomacy +4
Balance + 14
Jump +14

Racial/Class features:
Breathweapon: 60 ft line of Electric, 6d8 DC 13, 1/2 Dragon breath sucks.
Immune sleep/paralysis. Immune Electric. Lowlight/Darkvision.
Fienish Resilence (free action) 20 rounds/ 1 day. DR 2 (3)/cold iron, Resist Fire 10. Resist: Sonic/Acid 5. Poison 1/day, caster 8. Least Invocations: Dark One's luck, See Unseen, Leap/Bounds. Lesser: Fell Flight, Curse of Despair, Voracious Dispelling. Greater: Chilling Tentacles.

Feats:
1) Improv NA, 2) Skill Focus: UMD, 3) Improved Resilience: +1 DR, 4) Improved Toughness, 5) Improv NA, and 6) Extra Invocation: Eldritch Chain.

Scrolls:
4 x Mirror Image (caster 6)
4 x True Strike
4 x Expedious Retreat
2 x Haste, 4 x Displacement, 10 x Shield (caster 2), 3 x Bands of Steel (that spell rules, suck or lose spell), 3x Divine power (helps in BAB).
Except for Divine power I auto make. I need a 11 for DP so I have to roll it.

Mundane Gear: Backpack, Trial Ration (24), Waterskin, Cold weather outfit, Flint + steel, Tent

Magic Gear (I named most of it):
1) Courage-
+2 ring if Protect
2) Luck-
+4 vest of Resistance/+1 insight (I reslotted the ioun stone)
3) Power-
Greater Cold Resist Ring, useful since cold is only element used besides fire commonly by monsters
4) Strength-
Healing Belt/+2 Str
5) Speed-
+2 Gloves of Dex
6) Charisma-
+4 cloak of charisma
7) Health:
NA +3/Con+4/Brooch of Stability/Necklace of Adaptation/Hand of Glory (no see invis/Light) with:
This was very expensive due to 1.5 cost of secondary stuff added. But it was neccessary for survival (no dying from cloudkill).
8) Brooch of Shield (according to my reading, it fasten to cloak and thus slotless)
9) Slotless Medal of Ray of Enfeeblement: cheap and useful 2/day.
10) +4 Mithral Chain Shirt
11) +1 Longspear
12) Ring of Evasion attached to Hand of Glory.

Resistances:
Cold 20/Fire 10/Sonic 5/Acid 5/Immune to electric
immune to harmful vapors
Paralysis/sleep
Evasion

Books:
Complete 1.0 (warrior, arcane, divine, adventurer), Core, Item Compendruim (1/2 the book, not all), and 10 spells okay'd from Spell Compendruim (very little else, I finally at least got him to understand they are reprints not new spells). PHB 2 also.
I got the 4 Heart Spell from Complete Mage allowed, but little else.


Edit: I changed ring of P to +2, Cold resist to only 20, lowered armor to +4, and attached Hand of glory (minusd 3K for light/see invisiblity 1/day) x 1.5 for secondary function. Exchanged Skill Focus for Extra Invocation later.

I've decided that Wild Mage while cool sounding if not very good in restrospect. So I changed those last levels to Warlock.

Chronos
2008-02-24, 09:29 PM
Thought that came to be:
Dust of Sneezing and choking wouldn't affect me with the Adaptation effect protecting me... think it is possible to buy cursed items?
I'd only use it in a emergency (like boss fight), but it might be a good trump card.The book lists prices and creation prereqs for cursed items, so yes, you can buy or make them if you want. However, many DMs consider Dust of Sneezing and Choking to be cheesy when used that way, and won't allow it. As always with any item, but especially in a case like this, ask your DM.

Nebo_
2008-02-24, 09:44 PM
I managed 42 AC at level 10 once, but that was a pretty high powered game. It would have been higher, but the character was enlarged to huge.

Vexxation
2008-02-24, 09:54 PM
For a mere 140000 gold, you can have 28 +1 AC untyped no body slot custom magic items.

Even if that's true no sane DM would allow it. I mean, 28 custom items? The innate magic would cause you to explode.

Second thought, I like that concept.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-24, 10:50 PM
Heh, I would love to see a 'magic' suit of studded leather like that where every stud was one of those untyped magic items hat added +1 AC...now that would be just cheesy in the most wonderful way.

is 38 enough to 'tank'...if you mean can you effectively meat shield and provide as a target of oppertunity for enemies to keep the full casters from being taken into close combat...against most creatures at or below your level yes. Do note that unless you need to, you'll not want to expose yourself to deliberate damage...at most you should be second line of defense or an 'offtank'...providing up front magical support without too much fear of reprisal.

The problem with 'tanking' as you put it, is that as a warlock mainly, you don't have as many HP as you would like. 1/2 dragon does boost your HD (or it did in 3.0), so it is not as much an issue, but you may not have as many HP as a fighter, nor the extra feats to trip, expertise, mobility...the things that let you move around and keep enemies down (though your magic does make up for that somewhat.).

Bottom line...check the AC of the party fighter...if their AC and saves are pretty much the same as yours...you might as well give them a second target. Just know that your person is better suited to using your powers than being tied up in hand to hand...you don't even have hideous blow (a must for 1/2 dragon combat locks...yes it has been done before).

Basically, if your tentacles and such can hold a flank from advancing enemies as well as you could or better, there is no need to expose yourself to harm.

RedShift zX
2008-02-25, 02:42 AM
Hmm...What IS a good AC rating anyways for a Fighter/warblade type character at lvl 20?

Going for pure AC, w/o getting into epic level gear...Heres what I get. Not counting AC bonuses from class abilities. OR Feats..

10 [Natural] + 13[+5 Mithral Full Plate] +3 Dex in armor [Mithral full plate] +7 [+5 Heavy Steel Shield] +5 [+5 amulet of natural armor] +5 [Ring of Protection] +5 [Defending weapon]

Total : 48

This isn't wearing a tower shield either. So you could get AC 50 with a tower shield...So unless were excluding Epic level gear (because there isn't even a limit on enhancement bonuses for armor...or anything i think)...This seems to be the cap.

EDIT: Forgot about "Defending" weapons..and as someone else posted, you can put +1 Defending Spikes on your shield, since they count as weapons.

Talic
2008-02-25, 02:57 AM
AC, you fall in one of two categories as a fighter.... Focus on it... Or ignore it.

If you focus on it, you need a couple things. AC: You want creatures in your range to have a hard time hitting. No better than 50%. Let's look at a CR 15. 14th level Orc Barbarian, Approximate Elite Array. Base Strength 15 + 4 (race) +3 (levels 4,8,12) = 22. In rage = 28 (+9).

Assume a +2 Weapon, likely a greatsword. Assume also, a +2 Strength Item, and Base attack of 14. (+14)

Total rage strength = 30 (+10 to hit).
Base Attack = 14 (+14 to hit).
Weapon enhance = 2 (+2 to hit).

Total to hit = +26. 45% chance to hit, 55% on charge. Average damage = 2D6 +21 (assume power attack of 2 on charge). 2D6+25 with leap attack. With shock trooper and leap attack (2d6+73 =15 strength, 2 enhancement, 28 power attack, 28 leap attack)

Now, a fairly optimized NPC at CR 15 has a 45-55% to hit. Not bad.

Brings me to second point. Good tank needs HP. You'll want a high con, and high HP classes. Your goal here at level 15 is AT LEAST 200 hp.

Third point. You must be a threat. Something you do will have to get the attention of enemies, or they'll flow right by you.

kamikasei
2008-02-25, 05:11 AM
10 [Natural] + 13[+5 Mithral Full Plate] +3 Dex in armor [Mithral full plate] +7 [+5 Heavy Steel Shield] +5 [+5 amulet of natural armor] +10 [+5 Ring of Protection on both hands] +5 [Defending weapon]

Wouldn't these overlap, not stack?

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 06:35 AM
Wouldn't these overlap, not stack?

Yep, common mistake 2 rings don't stack if both same type.

And as i said only 137 hps. Better than a NPC fighter in DMG, but than what isn't (I kinda kid).

graymachine
2008-02-25, 07:28 AM
A little off topic, but your fly speed should be 60ft, if I recall correctly. Fell Flight directly mimics Fly, which has a speed of 60ft, except that it lasts 24 hrs.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 09:01 AM
A little off topic, but your fly speed should be 60ft, if I recall correctly. Fell Flight directly mimics Fly, which has a speed of 60ft, except that it lasts 24 hrs.

Not exactly, it sadly only gives up to land speed. Read page 134 of C. Arcane.

This is why I have scrolls of Expedious Retreat: increases land speed so it also increases Fly speed.

Jayabalard
2008-02-25, 09:20 AM
Anyway, is my AC high enough? This isn't a meaningful question. It requires too many assumptions for anyone to really be able to answer.

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 10:16 AM
7 Warlock/2 Acoltye of Skin/3 Wild Mage: Caster 13-18 (Wild Magic)

I consider Acolyte of the Skin and Wild Mage weak. But I can't really think of much better Warlock options given the books available. So I'd probably just stick with strait Warlock instead.

Too bad you can't use Complete Scoundrel, Mage, or the Fiendish Codex. There are a ton of really great Warlock options out there.



Feats:
1) UMD Skill focus, 2) Improv NA +1, 3) Magic Aptitude, 4) Sudden Still, 5) Practiced spellcaster, 6) Improved Toughness.

Most of the DC's for UMD are fixed, so you really don't need Skill Focus, especially with your ability to take 10. Ditto on Magical Aptitude.

No need for Practiced Spellcaster if you drop Acolyte of the Skin.

Sudden Still? Really? Are you Grappled very often? If so then this is a great choice, but you really should just find a magic item that gives you Freedom of Movement instead.

What's Improv NA +1?

Improved Toughness is a good idea. But not really necessary if you stay off the front line.

Consider Maximize Spell Like Ability, Quicken Spell Like Ability, Ability Focus, and Extra Invocation.

Looking at your items, its clear that you want to Tank. But Warlocks with the books you have access to are just really inefficient Tanks. Eldritch Spear doesn't add much to your damage, True Strike is very inefficient, and you're never going to get your AC and hit points to where they need to be. So your best bet is to use Chilling Tentacles for battlefield control, then blast away from a distance.

So I'm wondering, do you want to be a Warlock, or do you want to be a Tank? If its the first case, then you should focus your items on defense and versatility - lots of Wands, in particular, can be really helpful. If its the second case, then you should pick another class. Or are you just sticking with a Warlock who tanks for fluff reasons, then there's really no reason to argue about it, and I apologize.

Rutee
2008-02-25, 10:18 AM
Yep, common mistake 2 rings don't stack if both same type.

Where does it say this?

SamTheCleric
2008-02-25, 10:20 AM
Where does it say this?

Well... two items that offer the same bonus do not stack... so two items with deflection bonuses wouldn't work together. Right?

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 10:23 AM
Where does it say this?

Bonuses of the same type or from the same source don't stack. I think its originally discussed in the spells section of the PHB. But just to reinforce the point, they wrote a four part article on the subject, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a), here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040127a), here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040203a), and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a). I'm sure Silvanos or someone else can give you the exact RAW quote though.

Rutee
2008-02-25, 10:27 AM
Oh, I misread the post I was quoting in the first place, somehow; Thought it was supporting the "They stack" idea. That's what I get for 3 hours of sleep, I guess.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 11:43 AM
I consider Acolyte of the Skin and Wild Mage weak. But I can't really think of much better Warlock options given the books available. So I'd probably just stick with strait Warlock instead.


Wild Mage gives +1d6 caster, Practiced Spellcaster offsets penalty making it just beneficially.
Acolyte of Skin is a 2 level dip (the abilities after suck due to lost caster levels).
Tell me a better way for free 10 Fire resist, +2 inherent Dex and +1 NA.


Too bad you can't use Complete Scoundrel, Mage, or the Fiendish Codex. There are a ton of really great Warlock options out there.

That I know, but one uses the lemons life hands him.


Most of the DC's for UMD are fixed, so you really don't need Skill Focus, especially with your ability to take 10. Ditto on Magical Aptitude.
No need for Practiced Spellcaster if you drop Acolyte of the Skin.

Actually, I do. Have looked at level 4 to higher DC's?
Divine power DC 27, Wisdom needed requires 34. Which I just make.
Displacement DC 25 (if want caster 6 scrolls for longer) DC 26.

I have +24 with the +2 scrolls from spellcraft=+26.
Again, Practiced was for Wild Mage. Wild Mage is due to how awesome Chilling Tentacles get if +3 caster or more.


Sudden Still? Really? Are you Grappled very often? If so then this is a great choice, but you really should just find a magic item that gives you Freedom of Movement instead.

Required fopr Wild Mage: Only Metamagic I qualify for. Look at the Monster manual: they general feats gthat affect spell-like abilities not metamagic.


What's Improv NA +1?

+1 Natural from feat Improved Natural armor.


Improved Toughness is a good idea. But not really necessary if you stay off the front line.
[quote]
I need all the health I can get.
[quote]
Consider Maximize Spell Like Ability, Quicken Spell Like Ability, Ability Focus, and Extra Invocation.
Sadly non are metamagic. And extra Invocation: can't think of what else I need (maybe Wall of Flame, but extra invocation only affects lower grade not higher).


Looking at your items, its clear that you want to Tank. But Warlocks with the books you have access to are just really inefficient Tanks. Eldritch Spear doesn't add much to your damage, True Strike is very inefficient, and you're never going to get your AC and hit points to where they need to be. So your best bet is to use Chilling Tentacles for battlefield control, then blast away from a distance.

Oh I can totally change eldritch spear, but I thought a good ranged weapon was nice.
And my AC is decent for my CR. Yes, boss battles I have lower AC but since I doubt everyone else has higher I am safe in saying this is a non issue.
I mean, only Clerics are using full plate, Fighter is using light so his 1/2 celestial wings can fly.




So I'm wondering, do you want to be a Warlock, or do you want to be a Tank? If its the first case, then you should focus your items on defense and versatility - lots of Wands, in particular, can be really helpful. If its the second case, then you should pick another class. Or are you just sticking with a Warlock who tanks for fluff reasons, then there's really no reason to argue about it, and I apologize.

Character Concept I'm a seconfary tank.

Plus, I dislike using a classes fluff and perfer to make my own.
Defensive stuff:
And wands/spells/scrolls I lack?

And yes part 2 of this quote.

As far as I can tell: I think I will have highest AC besides Clerics
I mean, the 1/2 Celestial I think will be pure fighter: He hasn't said (this saturday will be the game), but during last few sessions he was in light armor.

Granted, I had light armor and my AC is decent (I'll admit not highest possible).

The Human Pelor Tank is possibly going healer, Codzilla, or mix.

1/2 Elf Warmage: first caster he has ever used. So he will mostly be blaster I wager.

Halfing Cleric: he has mostly relied on buffs/debuffs/save or loses (Hold Person) so far.

The human Rogue: TWFing, I hear going into Shadow Dancer.

Squash Monster
2008-02-25, 12:15 PM
Too much comparison of how high AC can get, not enough comparison to how high it needs to be.

A character that started its career with 18 strength and put all 4 stat bonuses (might as well get that 4th one, it's next level) has 22 innate strength. Let's say they have a +6 enhancement item. 28 strength is a +9 mod. +4 weapon, +2 worth of random extras (weapon specialization or something) and if they have full BAB, that's +30 to hit.

It's not the average scenario, but it is fairly typical: those stats could be found on most fighters: they'll be hitting you on an 8. That's decent, but not if AC is your big shtick.

AC doesn't scale too well, and there's lots of things that bypass it. If you want to tank, you need a miss chance, and, even more importantly, some form of battlefield control. I don't know your current feat setup, but if you can get Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon, that'll help you more than AC. If you're a fighter, Overwhelming Assault from PH2 turns that into something awesome.

Marek Haldir
2008-02-25, 12:24 PM
I've been working on uping my fighter's AC too, mostly with feats etc. Here's what I've got.

Base 10
Mitril Breastplate + 3
Amulet of NA +2
Ring of prot +2
Dex 18, + gloves of Dex +2 for +5

Gives a total without feats of 27

Dodge +1
Combat Expertise +5
Fighting Defenseivly +3
Mobility +4
Armour of God +4

AC with Feats 44

then there's +'s from other magic

Sheild of faith +2
and some other spell out favoured soul found with gives +5 divine bonus or something to those within a certain radius for a grand total spike AC of 51.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-25, 12:34 PM
Ring of prot +2

Sheild of faith +2


Shame on you! Both are deflection bonuses and thus will not stack. :smallbiggrin:

Marek Haldir
2008-02-25, 01:56 PM
Actually Sam, we know that, but the Favoured Soul's Sheild of Faith actually provides +4 at his level. So yes it doesn't stack but I count it as +2 since it would replace the bonus from my ring.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-25, 02:22 PM
As has been stated multiple times, AC is less important as immunities and hit points.

My suggestion as to good gear:

+1 Mithral Full Plate of whatever. Pick abilities that covers your gaps.

If you two-hand, get a Dancing Shield. Otherwise, grab a Spiked Shield, and enchant the spikes as +1 Defending (they count as weapons).

Ring of Freedom of Movement. A must-have for anyone, really.

Amulet of Natural Armor. Because more AC is never a bad thing, just not the only thing.

Bracers: If your Dex is not a 16, get Gloves of Dexterity to get it up to 16-17 to max out the max dex of your mithral full plate. Otherwise, the best bet is probably either Gauntlets of Rust or Gauntlets of Ogre Power. If your GM likes to chunk equipment-destroying stuff at you, Gaunts of Rust are a better idea, otherwise go for extra damage. Glove of Storing is another option to simulate the Quick Draw feat.

Neck slot: Necklace of Adaptation. Seriously, at 9k, why NOT get it? Immunity to Cloudkill and inhaled toxins. Immunity to drowning. Come on, what's wrong with this?

Scarab of Protection: Basically Death Ward + SR 20 all rolled into one. Granted, SR 20 isn't much, but it's better than nothing. It's the immunity to energy draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects that you're wanting.

Buffs to request from the party cleric: Magic Vestments. Your +1 armor becomes +5. All day. Have a nice day. Greater Magic Weapon, on your shield spikes. Congratulations, now you have another +4 armor from the Defending nature of the spikes.

Buffs to request from the party wizard: Mind Blank. Being a fighter, you're most suceptable to mind-affecting shut-down spells (charm, dominate, fear, confusion...). Duration of 24 hours on this buff makes it most handy.

Marek Haldir
2008-02-25, 02:44 PM
Well new toys like that are always good. My DM isn't too nasty with what he throws at us. I've had to work on my Will save because my party has not been too into getting other spells to help us with resisting mind altering affects etc. I just tell them that when I get dominated or whatever they'll regret their decision.

DeathQuaker
2008-02-25, 02:47 PM
I just want to say, I've been playing D&D 3x nearly since 3.0 came out 8 years ago, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone, level 15 or not, with an AC of 38. Maybe 35, at truly high levels and with a very focused character build.

Apparently we're doing it wrong. Ah well.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 02:54 PM
Oh, I editted with a few changes:

I lowered armor/ring by 1 (lowering AC by 2) and lowered Ring of Cold to Major, but got Hand of Glory (8K - secondary 1/day =5K x 1.5= 7.5K to add) effect added to necklace + ring of Evasion.

This was due to comments thaty AC less important at higher levels and I should focus on immunities.

Evasion is an immunity to save 1/2's so I agreed that that could be useful.

kamikasei
2008-02-25, 03:10 PM
Amulet of Natural Armor. Because more AC is never a bad thing, just not the only thing.

Neck slot: Necklace of Adaptation. Seriously, at 9k, why NOT get it? Immunity to Cloudkill and inhaled toxins. Immunity to drowning. Come on, what's wrong with this?

Scarab of Protection: Basically Death Ward + SR 20 all rolled into one. Granted, SR 20 isn't much, but it's better than nothing. It's the immunity to energy draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects that you're wanting.

Aren't these all the same slot? Or is this just a "choose among them according to your priorities" list?

RedShift zX
2008-02-25, 03:10 PM
Wouldn't these overlap, not stack?


Huh, learn something new every day..My mistake.

Talic
2008-02-25, 03:26 PM
I'd recommend going good, actually. Replace Acolyte of the Skin, which isn't doing a whole lot, with Enlightened Spirit. Better Base attack, and it gets the following features:

Fear immunity, and buff to party fear, like a paladin.
Penalty to opponent melee attacks and saves. (no save)
Ghost Touch Spirit Blast, with bonus damage to undead.
The Good version of Fell Flight. Replace the other with something tasty. Devil's Sight or the spot check one.
Shape invocation. Get eldritch spear here, or upgrade to something better. Your call. Focusing on the shape invokes can get you a Chain or cone here.
A bit of Energy Resistance
Dimensional Anchor Holy blast, with bonus damage to evil outsiders.
Touch attack Dispel Magic that HEALS. Either debuff/rebuff in a fight, or have your ally cast darkness or light on a rock for free HP recovery. Better yet, dispel the effects your buddy has permanencied every 1d4 rounds for free healing.
Permanent Death Ward

Now, the Ghost Touch, Dim Anchor, Energy resistance, and death ward alone boost you, but adding in Fear immunity (there's no running in baseball!), extra invocations, and extra invocation abilities may help the character, at the same time, enhancing that "protector" tank image.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 04:52 PM
Aren't these all the same slot? Or is this just a "choose among them according to your priorities" list?

I agree. The first two can be combined for just 50% more the second one added.

Never, never combine the Scarab. Why? It distinergrates if you get hit by 12 attacks like negative levels, inflict, etc. If you did that it would all crumble.

Edit:
Scarab is processor not worn so already slotless. Okay, pretty neat than.


I'd recommend going good, actually. Replace Acolyte of the Skin, which isn't doing a whole lot, with Enlightened Spirit. Better Base attack, and it gets the following features:


a. +2 Inherent Dex, 10 Fire resist, +1 Natural armor is not doing nothing. I rather think this is worth 2 levels: I mean, I save a alot of money this way (+2 inherent Dex is worth 50 k alone).

b. Can't go outside Complete 1.0 (warrior, adventurer, etc)
Complete 2.0 not allowed (Mage, ToB, Scoundrel, Champion)

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 06:31 PM
Wild Mage gives +1d6 caster, Practiced Spellcaster offsets penalty making it just beneficially.

That's not how Practiced Spellcaster and Wild Mage interact.

From the official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 40:


How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild magic class feature of the wild mage (from Complete Arcane)?

The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value equal to her character level. For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus; the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would increase her caster level above her character level). On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level (before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a character with this combination, as it is likely to cause headaches.

So as I mentioned before, I really don't see a compelling reason to take Wild Mage.



Acolyte of Skin is a 2 level dip (the abilities after suck due to lost caster levels).

Tell me a better way for free 10 Fire resist, +2 inherent Dex and +1 NA.

They're not "free." You lose a caster level, and forgo whatever abilities you'd get from levels of another class or PrC. Fire Resistance 10, +2 Dex, and +1 Natural Armor can all be purchased via a variety of magic items. Resist Energy, in particular, is only a 1st level Ranger spell that lasts for 10 min per level. A Wand of Resist Energy would be really cheap, and could be customized for any energy type as needed.




Actually, I do. Have looked at level 4 to higher DC's?
Divine power DC 27, Wisdom needed requires 34. Which I just make.
Displacement DC 25 (if want caster 6 scrolls for longer) DC 26.

?

A UMD Check is d20 + Ranks + Cha. You can Take 10 using your Warlock special ability, so really its just 10 + character level + 3 + Cha. So as a ECL 12 PC, you should be getting 25 + Cha.

The DC for activating a Wand is 20. So the simple answer is that you should just buy Wands.

But lets say you're only going to do this occasionally, and so you buy Scrolls. The DC for activating a Scroll is 20 + caster level. For Divine Power (a 4th level spell) that's CL 7. So the Scroll DC is 27, still well within your range if you have a Cha of at least 14. (And if you don't, why are you a Warlock).

If for some reason you don't have 14 Wis (the minimum required to cast a 4th level Cleric spell) then you need to emulate that Wis. "Your effective ability score is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15." For Divine Power, that would mean you'd need a UMD check of 29. So if you have a Cha of 18, you can pull it off without a problem.


Does any of this information change your build?

Chronos
2008-02-25, 07:41 PM
Ring of Freedom of Movement. A must-have for anyone, really.Agreed. It's a cheap item, you can wear two rings, so you can still use some other must-have ring, and it gives you complete immunity to a whole lot of effects.

Also, there's an armor property somewhere that gives continuous Death Ward, without ever wearing out (though I can't remember what book it's from). If you can get that, it's better than the Scarab of Protection. Continuous Death Ward is another one of those properties that everyone should want to have, since it likewise protects you against a whole lot of things (though admittedly Fort save things, which fighter-types don't have to worry as much about).

And while Mind Blank is yet another effect which protects you from a whole lot of problems, it's a bit on the expensive side. It's either an 8th-level spell (and your party wizard may have other things he'd prefer to spend his 8th-level slots on), or a 200k item. So you'll likely have to do without that.

Shades of Gray
2008-02-25, 08:42 PM
You could get a fiendish graft from fiend folio, you have to be evil, but the AC bonus is good.

DM: You just killed your party memberr, what now?
PC: I'm going to sell my soul.
DM: Why?
PC: For a +5 AC:smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 10:05 PM
So as I mentioned before, I really don't see a compelling reason to take Wild Mage.

But as my caster is naturally lower: the FAQ says it does improve it. It gave example of the rogue.

It appears to say:
I roll a 1, my caster is 11 +1 -3 (+4 up to 12)=12.
If I roll a 6, my caster is 11 +6 -3 (+4 up to 12)=14. PS did not apply.
Still, when I do roll low, the PS will let me negate the penalty.
So I'm sticking with it.

But you are right, the class doesn't offer much besides the caster buff. The random deflector is nice (I might not be affected if I fail a save). Almost as good as deathward versus death effects. The enemy might be hit instead (or party).

Really, the 3 levels in Wild mage added +3 reflex (that helped my saves).
The 3 warlock levels would have added what?
Energy Resist 5 (okay, but low and no stack with magic item), Fiendish Resilence 1 (fast heal 1).
I can be healed by the party or my health belt. Really, not that good. It is a free action at least.


I figure Wild Mage gives more benefit: even if I need Sudden Still/Magic Aptitude feats to qualify.


They're not "free." You lose a caster level, and forgo whatever abilities you'd get from levels of another class or PrC. Fire Resistance 10, +2 Dex, and +1 Natural Armor can all be purchased via a variety of magic items. Resist Energy, in particular, is only a 1st level Ranger spell that lasts for 10 min per level. A Wand of Resist Energy would be really cheap, and could be customized for any energy type as needed.

Sometimes you don't have the luxery of using a scroll/wand: thus this why I wanted innate/magic item resistances.

+2 dex costs 55 K (inherent bonus), that is not chump change.
NA stops at +5 (amulet) also not easy to get +6 (which I could after a level or 2, upgrade necklace).

Really, Warlock does not grant that great of benefits if I choose it or Wild Mage instead.
All it did was make me take longer to get another Great invocation (2 levels instead of 1).


The DC for activating a Wand is 20. So the simple answer is that you should just buy Wands.

Wands are expensive compared to scrolls.


If for some reason you don't have 14 Wis (the minimum required to cast a 4th level Cleric spell) then you need to emulate that Wis. "Your effective ability score is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15." For Divine Power, that would mean you'd need a UMD check of 29. So if you have a Cha of 18, you can pull it off without a problem.

Thanks I thought it was Score -20, 15 is more managable, thanks again.
So my check at take 10= 10 + 24=34. Your right I do make it.
So maybe I don't need Skill Focus UMD, but what would I exchange it for?

Really, I don't have alot of feat choices:
Maximize Spell-like would work for EB or Quicken spell-like, but the Warmage and Fighter will be the main damage dealers (I mean all Warmages do is blasts).
So I went with something simple, but which do think is better?

Chronos
2008-02-25, 10:27 PM
Wands are expensive compared to scrolls.Only if it's something you only use rarely. Remember, a wand has fifty charges; a scroll only has one.

Jacob Orlove
2008-02-25, 11:09 PM
Wands are 750 gp x spell level x caster level, but on a per-charge basis, that's only 15 gp x CL x SL. A scroll is 25 gp x CL x SL, which is a better deal if you only need 1-2 charges, but not if you'll be using the spell a lot.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 11:13 PM
Only if it's something you only use rarely. Remember, a wand has fifty charges; a scroll only has one.

Remember that you can put multiple spells on scrolls: all it does is increase the length.

Chronos
2008-02-26, 12:54 AM
Remember that you can put multiple spells on scrolls: all it does is increase the length.Well, the length and the cost. A scroll with three spells on it costs exactly as much as three separate scrolls with those spells. The only advantage to having them all on the same scroll is that you don't have to spend actions getting out multiple scrolls, if you want to cast them all in the same encounter.

ladditude
2008-02-26, 01:17 AM
Take a wand of mirror image and spam away. Add in a ring of blinking and you become retardedly hard to hit. Plus, you essentially mirror a ring of freedom of movement. Plus, you can walk through five foot walls. It is win sauce.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-26, 02:14 AM
If you want to be an AC tank at high levels there are two simple rules. 1. Your AC isn't high enough, no, not even then. 2. Don't play a straight fighter, play a gish. AC at high levels stops being "you can't hit me" unless you've really got a good AC it stops even being "you can't hit me with your iteratives", it becomes "you can't power attack and hit me with your iteratives".

As for rule number 2, gishes are flat out better then fighter types. Whether your tossing around divine, arcane, or psionics you're probably fighting only a bit worse then the pure melee guy unbuffed, and of course you not only have buffs you also have battle field control, increased mobility, nukes and/or you can heal. Gishes are just better, period. Also, as far as AC goes because D&D is so magic item centric, your AC will not lag behind a straight fighter with a divine or psionic gish type (or with the right build, arcane gish).

Also, to answer the question: I play a level 13 character with an AC that routinely drops to 2, and he is widely regarded as a very effective melee character (and has saved the party on more then one occasion). Granted, his strength also jumps to 35/42, and his con to 28 (Don't try and figure it out unless you play Arcanis). Granted, APL 15 is a whole different ball game, but ultimately how much AC your build needs is extremely relative.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-26, 08:25 AM
Well, the length and the cost. A scroll with three spells on it costs exactly as much as three separate scrolls with those spells. The only advantage to having them all on the same scroll is that you don't have to spend actions getting out multiple scrolls, if you want to cast them all in the same encounter.

Yes, but than you waste paper: not even in a game can I be so cruel to the planet. :smallcool:

Talic
2008-02-26, 08:33 AM
Yes, but than you waste paper: not even in a game can I be so cruel to the planet. :smallcool:

Tell you what, here's some solutions:

Divine full-casters: every so often, say, once every 1,000 scrolls, cast a spell that rapidly grows plant life in an area. Now you've replaced what you've taken, welcome to the circle of life.

Arcane Full-casters: Use minor creation spells to create paper. Poof, no trees killed.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-26, 09:42 AM
After all this speculation, I began working on the highest AC I could manage at 20th level.

I came up with 49 AC... vs a CR 20 Balor... the Balor needs a 16+ to hit.

1 in 4 chance to hit someone who is completely decked out for AC. Whereas a simple 3rd level potion of displacement provides a 50% miss chance.

I'm going for miss chances from now on. o_O It's the much -cheaper- solution.

+5 Mithral Full Plate +13 (+8 armor, +5 enhancement)
+3 Dexterity (Max dex on MFP)
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield +7 (+2 Shield, +5 Enhancement)
+5 Defending Dagger +5 (for the off hand)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone +1 (Insight Bonus)

10+13+3+5+5+7+5+1 = 49 AC.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-26, 11:27 AM
After all this speculation, I began working on the highest AC I could manage at 20th level.

I came up with 49 AC... vs a CR 20 Balor... the Balor needs a 16+ to hit.

1 in 4 chance to hit someone who is completely decked out for AC. Whereas a simple 3rd level potion of displacement provides a 50% miss chance.

I'm going for miss chances from now on. o_O It's the much -cheaper- solution.

+5 Mithral Full Plate +13 (+8 armor, +5 enhancement)
+3 Dexterity (Max dex on MFP)
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+5 Animated Heavy Steel Shield +7 (+2 Shield, +5 Enhancement)
+5 Defending Dagger +5 (for the off hand)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone +1 (Insight Bonus)

10+13+3+5+5+7+5+1 = 49 AC.


Don't alot of demons/devils have True seeing negating the miss chance?

Frosty
2008-02-26, 12:00 PM
I'm 100% sure Pit Fiends have True Seeing. I'm fairly sure Balors have it as well.

Query: If you have Mindblank on, will an enemy's True Seeing still ignore your miss chance from Mirror Image or Displacement?

SamTheCleric
2008-02-26, 12:03 PM
Oh, well... I was only using the Balor as an example of a CR20 creature (it was the first I could think of)... Special abilities aside... :)

Starbuck_II
2008-02-26, 03:15 PM
I'm 100% sure Pit Fiends have True Seeing. I'm fairly sure Balors have it as well.

Query: If you have Mindblank on, will an enemy's True Seeing still ignore your miss chance from Mirror Image or Displacement?

Somewhat off topic, but it will help my character to know so I'll allow it:
As far as I can tell Mindblank only stops mindaffecting stuff + information gathering stuff.

a. Trueseeing is not mind affecting
b. Is truth in seeing= information gathering? I'd wager no.

So Mindblank doesn't work on True seeing directly.