Azure City military: sanity in question

[Mr. Scaly]

First I thought that it was a fluke.

Miko took everything in the world as a sign that she should do this or that. The slightest events, like her cage being damaged by battle or watching yet another battle, were directions from the Twelve Gods themselves. But then Miko was unstable and self-absorbed, and that behaviour can be dismissed as signs of insanity.

But now, these two other Azure City soldiers see Shojo's cat and assume it's a mystical sign that they should do things...

Coincidence? Or was AC doomed from the start due to madness among the military?

[Raging_Pacifist]

3 words: Too Much Sake.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Now I know where Miko gets her views from. Maybe thinking everything is some kind of sign from the twelve gods is the norm in Azure City. :smallamused:

[Zordrath]

Thinking of different animals as holy was quite common among ancient civilizations - Miko was overdoing it, but the pet of the former lord could very well have been regarded as a sign even in reality.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think it has something to do with the fact that several East Asian cultures have wide superstitious streaks.

[Morty]

I think the trend among Azure City's officer cadre to be obnoxious paranoid bigots is far worse than that.

[BRC]

You must also remember, this is a city with lots of national pride. Then, in the course of one week their ruler is killed and their city falls to what they consider to be scum.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are coping with this in odd ways.

[BisectedBrioche]

Well maybe it just happens that a couple of Miko-esque crazies ended up leading the two factions (maybe they were so full of themselves that they were the only ones to take the leadership feat?)

[ShellBullet]

For some reason, I get the feeling that other rebels didn't even intended to negotie seriously, but for sake of formalities they send their reprensitives...And they choose their diplomats accordingly, because I seriously doubt that they would use such people for importan negotations.

[Mr. Scaly]

I just remembered that the twelve gods of Azure City are animals, so in retrospect animals are probably revered more than in other cultures, though there's no cat among the twelve gods. I think though that those two officers were grasping at straws...with a healthy dose of mental instability brought on by losing the war and the paranoia of months of Resistance efforts. :smallwink:

[ShellBullet]

There is the tiger god, which could also be representive for all feline creatures...Including cats..

[LtNOWIS]

For some reason, I get the feeling that other rebels didn't even intended to negotie seriously, but for sake of formalities they send their reprensitives...And they choose their diplomats accordingly, because I seriously doubt that they would use such people for importan negotations.

Hmm, that's quite possible. It might be a pretty dangerous journey, and if they distrusted each other that much they'd suspect ambush.

But yeah, they probably lost a lot of their best officers during the battle.

[Demented]

Well, at least in the case of these members of the Azure City military, their superstition leads them towards less violent results rather than more violent results.

[Eran of Arcadia]

Shucks, I just saw it as a clever way of tying up loose ends.

Besides, it gave them something from the old days to hold onto.

[NikkTheTrick]

They had their leadership killed or scattered.
They witnessed fall of the city.
They saw their own people eslaved and tortured.
They witnessed God knows what other horrible things Team Evil committed. After all, no matter how hideous, Redcloak's actions towards Asurites are fair game.

Add to that the fact that in their world gods are proven beyond any doubt to exist. That would make normal people a lot more supersticious.

All that would make many normal people snap.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Finding out that the gods you worship and the ideals they represent exist would make people snap? Please explain.

[Mr. Scaly]

Probably. But these folks haven't 'snapped' so much as lost grip on reality.

[NikkTheTrick]

Finding out that the gods you worship and the ideals they represent exist would make people snap? Please explain.
No, that would just make people VERY superstitious.

And once a disaster comes upon a nation (like we had in AC) people are very likely to think that gods had forsaken them, etc, etc and then go a bit coocoo.

I don't know about you, but if I was there and such disasters happened, I would seriously consider capturing and ritualistically sacraficing Haley to appease the gods so that they get us rid of hobgoblins.

[Superglucose]

Well you'll notice that after the initial "It's a sign from GOD!" they listened to belkar for all of, what, a few seconds, before deciding that maybe the sign wasn't so... appropriate.

[Querzis]

Well you'll notice that after the initial "It's a sign from GOD!" they listened to belkar for all of, what, a few seconds, before deciding that maybe the sign wasn't so... appropriate.

I agree. If they would have decided to follow Belkar anyway then I would say they are totally mad but it look like to me they were desperatly looking for a sign and for a leader that could rally them all. As soon as Belkar talked, they decided to chose one of the only paladin they had left as their new leader so they arent mad, just really desperate and I would be desperate too if I was them.

Beside, Shojo was the only man both factions served and liked. As far as they know, ever since Shojo became senile Mr.Scruffy was about just as much their leader as Shojo was so its just normal to take Scruffy new master as leader.

[Rad]

Well you'll notice that after the initial "It's a sign from GOD!" they listened to belkar for all of, what, a few seconds, before deciding that maybe the sign wasn't so... appropriate.

BINGO! They probably knew that the resistance movements needed to unite, but did not posses a valid unifying element. A cat? Well, if you really need a unifying element it can do...

[Yendor]

Beside, Shojo was the only man both factions served and liked. As far as they know, ever since Shojo became senile Mr.Scruffy was about just as much their leader as Shojo was so its just normal to take Scruffy new master as leader.
And despite being "senile" Shojo was making decisions that he thought were good for the city, without worrying about what the nobles (and to a lesser extent, the paladins) thought. "He might have been a nut, but he kept things running." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) So if they can associate Mr. Scruffy with good management of the city, they'll be happy.

[Fitzclowningham]

They are superstitious, but in addition, Mr. Scruffy was the only one present in the throne room at the time of Shojo's death that everyone agrees is above suspicion. If he's ok with the OoTS, then the OoTS must be ok. Or at least Belkar. Ok, well, maybe Thanh.

[The Wanderer]

I just remembered that the twelve gods of Azure City are animals, so in retrospect animals are probably revered more than in other cultures, though there's no cat among the twelve gods. I think though that those two officers were grasping at straws...with a healthy dose of mental instability brought on by losing the war and the paranoia of months of Resistance efforts. :smallwink:

I think it might be more that numerous Asian cultures, particularly China and Japan, did for a very long time, (and to some extent still do) believe that the spirits of one's ancestors would continue to watch over, advise, and attempt to protect their people. Since most of the time spirits are not in the habit of or able to suddenly become visible and smack you upside the head, they have to work through minor signs, portents, granting sudden insights, etc.

Obviously, Shojo wasn't the relative of anyone there, but he was the ruler of the whole city. So, if the description from the former paragraph is a part of your religion, then the idea of Shojo sending a sudden sign through a creature known to be personally precious to him, (one that, when he began faking senility, he claimed actually ruled the city), carries some weight.

Although I think the earlier suggestion that, if these two aren't the leaders of their factions that they were deliberately sent to cause havoc has a lot of merit. It's certainly something that some would do to sabotage negotiations.

[DreadSpoon]

3 words: Too Much Sake.

Bwa? That's like saying "too much sex." It just doesn't hold, dude.

[Ganurath]

Bwa? That's like saying "too much sex." It just doesn't hold, dude.Imagine what would happen with Tsukiko and one of her Wights. There's such a thing as too much of a good thing.

Also, methinks that dynamic duo was selected because they have the most ranks in Sense Motive. Trouble is, as NPCs they don't know if they pass or fail their checks.

[Lorn]

Finding out that the gods you worship and the ideals they represent exist would make people snap? Please explain.
Knowing the gods exist? Not so much.

But seeing the gods as having forsaken them when they really needed them?

The gods de-paladin'd Miko. But that's insignificant in the grand scheme of things. They didn't, however, protect the city - full of believers/worshippers - from the evil army of invading hobgoblins led by a powerful lich sorceror attempting to take control of a god-killing monstrosity.

After living their lives in service to these gods, I'm not surprised they snapped...

[Andorax]

I mentioned this in the #533 thread, but consider this:

Neither of the leaders can negotiate, for to do so is to admit they were wrong, and that would cause them to lose face.

So instead, they come up with a (seemingly absurd) justification for changing their minds that doesn't involve either of them giving up what they've said before (it's a "bigger" sign than before).

They're not completely nuts...they're just trapped in their own cultural strictures.

Well that...and they're also both plotting about how to off Thanh and take over "legitimately" already.

I suspect one or both are Samurai (not the class, the caste...do I need to drag up Miko's explanation from earlier?).

[David Argall]

it look like to me they were desperatly looking for a sign and for a leader that could rally them all. As soon as Belkar talked, they decided to chose one of the only paladin they had left as their new leader so they arent mad, just really desperate and I would be desperate too if I was them.

No, they are crazy, quite bonkers. They just aren't so far off the deep end as to see Belkar as anything but what he is.

[Hectonkhyres]

Imagine what would happen with Tsukiko and one of her Wights. There's such a thing as too much of a good thing.
Seriously. Tell that to the-imageboard-that-must-not-be-named.

[Paragon Badger]

I think it has something to do with the fact that several East Asian cultures have wide superstitious streaks.

Correct.

The book 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms' takes place in China during the 3rd century AD, and it very correctly portrays the importance of symbolism inherent in many people's beliefs.

It's a cultural thing, not a matter of sanity.

Plus, it's not like Europeans never went fishing for divine symbols, either.

[paladinofshojo]

Well, I doubt that they are not TOTALLY insane, seeing as they had enough points in Common Sense to not let Belkar lead the resistance.:smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

I mentioned this in the #533 thread, but consider this:

Neither of the leaders can negotiate, for to do so is to admit they were wrong, and that would cause them to lose face.

So instead, they come up with a (seemingly absurd) justification for changing their minds that doesn't involve either of them giving up what they've said before (it's a "bigger" sign than before).

They're not completely nuts...they're just trapped in their own cultural strictures.

This.

The need to save face is deeply ingrained in certain cultures. The cat gave them a sudden excuse to make a political about-face without looking weak to their constituents. They knew that there had to be some sort of unification, or they wouldn't have gone to the meeting in the first place. The fight that starts is the real insanity, where they threaten to let their emotions consume Azure City's last chance. When they are calmed down, one of them seizes on a peace plan that allows everyone to save face. They know it will go over with their people, because who would risk denying the will of the gods and the spirit of Shojo? Then, because they have NOT gone insane, they reject the loony leader who presents himself in favor of a paladin--because they know that an active paladin is still a Lawful Good person and a good leader.

Basically, we have two people cobbling together a peace accord through subtext and metaphor rather than direct negotiations. Whether they actually believe the cat is an omen is moot.

In a sense, they are the anti-Miko: They are using a sign from the gods as an excuse to put aside their personal grudges, in order to unite for the common good. Miko used signs from the god to justify her personal grudges. Two sides of the same coin, as a result of their common cultural heritage, but with very different outcomes.

EDIT: Oh, and there is a cat in the Twelve Gods: Tiger.

[Laurentio]

There is the tiger god, which could also be representive for all feline creatures...Including cats..
Actually, the representative sacred animal for cats is... rabbit. Believe it or no.

Anyway, I say what I told in another thread: when all is falling, you WANT to believe that things will go right. Messengers know, in their guts, that they needed a coalition, while their honor wants more bloodshed and separation. The "holy cat" is just an expedient to justify a choice that, otherwise, couldn't be accepted. Convenient.
As a proof, see how they re-interpret the cat presence at their advantage: no more "Belkar the First", but some-guy-with-paladin-status.

Laurentio

[Alex Warlorn]

The fact they rejected Belkar as leader after hearing what was coming out of his mouth, proves they weren't crazy, if they were, they wouldn't have cared.

[David Argall]

The need to save face is deeply ingrained in certain cultures. The cat gave them a sudden excuse to make a political about-face without looking weak to their constituents.

There would have been no loss of face if they had simply returned to their supporters and said "The !@#$ attacked me! No doubt in league with that foreigner who called the conference." [No, they would not be lying. They would see it that way and so would their backers.]



They knew that there had to be some sort of unification, or they wouldn't have gone to the meeting in the first place.
Almost certainly wrong.
Most of you know the situation here. Your friends fixed you up with this date that you just knew was going to be a dud, but you went anyway because you had to keep your friends happy, and there was always the hope the date would be better than the TV. But you went only intending to go thru the motions and wondering how quick you could ditch this loser.

Same things applies to these two leaders. They went because the idea of unifying the resistance had obvious appeal and they didn't think they could reject it out of hand, but they went with very little hope of success. They would have been "happy" to have just gone back to their group and said "I tried, but the other groups just didn't want to make a deal."
So Kitty's appearance was a genuine change of plans for all parties, not some excuse.
Keep in mind that many of us do see signs from beyond in random(?) events. And laughing at others making irrational decisions is another common theme.


they know that an active paladin is still a Lawful Good person and a good leader.
For their circumstances, the paladin is probably a lousy leader, his chief virtue being that he is not Belkar. They need a CG rogue like Haley, except that one of their chief agreements is that she won't do.

[Gamerlord]

they are not insane...they,like all people of azure city,are arrogent stuck-up fools........i hate all of azure citys people

[Alex Warlorn]

they are not insane...they,like all people of azure city,are arrogent stuck-up fools........i hate all of azure citys people

Ya sound like SOD SPOILERS


Redcloak when he once put all humans in a negative light (one that Xykon didn't object to), where Elan directly contradicts that fact.