I don't think PCs should remember the afterlife after they are raised.

[abaddon667]

Roy is doing all sorts of actions with his "soul" form. I strongly believe that PCs, or anyone for that matter, who are raised from the dead should have no memory of the afterlife. To actually rememer the afterlife cheapens the religions and lifeviews; because then everyone would "know" where they going after they die instead of having "faith". Why would anyone be evil, if after they die, they "know" they are going to hell (assuming hell is a place where evil people are punished, and not just a place evil souls/demons hang out.)

I want Roy's last memories after he gets up is falling to his death. (maybe give him some deja vu) Anyone else agree with me?

[FujinAkari]

While I don't really have an opinion on whether Roy should remember his afterlife (although I'd lean towards that he should) it sounds like you're getting real world religions confused with D&D religions. D&D religions do not operate on Faith, and everyone knows what the afterlives are like whether they die or not (although may not know what their alignment will ultimately be judged as.)

No one has faith that the gods exist, it is established fact, with Clerics being tangible proof of their power.

Similarly, the Nine Hells do NOT exist for the punishment of evil souls. There was no God that created the Hell as a prison, but the evil Gods hold reign in the Nine Hells / The Abyss, and are opposed by the Good Gods.

[ShellBullet]

No.

It would waste that character development, which Roy got in the heaven...Also I get the feeling that Belkar would be happy in hell, because he can be SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR there continiusly...

Besides gods actively interferes the Oots world, so I doubt that visiting the afterlife cheapens the religion as you said...

[factotum]

On the other hand, there's no evidence that the wider population know anything about what the afterlife is really like--Roy knew nothing about the "waiting room" where Eugene is, or how things work on Mount Celestia. That implies that people do NOT retain their afterlife memories when they are rezzed, because there must be plenty of people every year getting resurrected who could pass on what they'd seen...

[ShellBullet]

On the other hand, there's no evidence that the wider population know anything about what the afterlife is really like--Roy knew nothing about the "waiting room" where Eugene is, or how things work on Mount Celestia. That implies that people do NOT retain their afterlife memories when they are rezzed, because there must be plenty of people every year getting resurrected who could pass on what they'd seen...

Even simple Raise dead is very expensive for your average Joe and clerics who are capable doing so, aren't avaible everyone...

Besides I am sure that clerics are more than happy to tell you about afterlife...Roy himself wasn't very religious, so I strongly doubt he had talked afterlife with anyone.

[The gF]

You might recall that Eugene was surprised that Roy didn't know. It means he wasn't paying attention in his religion classes, not that nobody actually knows about it.

[factotum]

And Eugene is clearly a brilliant example of someone who knew about the afterlife before he got there, considering he apparently never knew his Blood Oath would prevent him entering Celestia...

[Mauve Shirt]

The religions here aren't about faith, you don't really need faith to believe in the gods since it's established that they DO exist through the fact that Durkon gets his powers from Thor.

[Qov]

I agree with the OP. I think Roy should awaken after resurrection with immediate memories of the fall and his inability to break the amulet. Perhaps he sees Celia after he is resurrected and initially assumes that he has managed to break it, and that she has saved him. All memory of the afterlife and of his scrying while dead have gone.

If he has opportunity to communicate with the rest of the party while he is a ghost, he should discover that it such communication can only be as cryptic as 'when the goat turns red strikes true," and that he is unable to impart any information on the afterlife, or even to tell them non-cryptically where the other members of the Order are.

The character development made through his discoveries while dead could be reflected in subconscious changes, a new sense of lawful good, and perhaps the occasional déjà vu.

[Lorn]

And Eugene is clearly a brilliant example of someone who knew about the afterlife before he got there, considering he apparently never knew his Blood Oath would prevent him entering Celestia...
Eugene has always seemed to me like the kind of person to do something without really looking into it properly, or to forget about it later. Plus, it's a tricky subject - how many people would swear a blood oath, and how many people then would be raised? Could they be raised before they got to Mount Celestia?

[factotum]

Plus, it's a tricky subject - how many people would swear a blood oath, and how many people then would be raised? Could they be raised before they got to Mount Celestia?

You realise that Eugene himself has died at least six times and been resurrected each time? Also, we saw when Roy died that the interview with the deva to determine if you can enter Celestia occurs very soon after the death--within a few hours at most. Now, Eugene's tombstone in On the Origin of PCs suggests that at least one of the times he died he wasn't resurrected until the next year, and it seems fairly unlikely that he wasn't in the afterlife long enough on that occasion to have had his interview; yet once he was brought back he didn't remember that his Blood Oath would keep him out of Celestia.

Ergo, you don't remember the afterlife when you're resurrected.

[abaddon667]

You realise that Eugene himself has died at least six times and been resurrected each time? Also, we saw when Roy died that the interview with the deva to determine if you can enter Celestia occurs very soon after the death--within a few hours at most. Now, Eugene's tombstone in On the Origin of PCs suggests that at least one of the times he died he wasn't resurrected until the next year, and it seems fairly unlikely that he wasn't in the afterlife long enough on that occasion to have had his interview; yet once he was brought back he didn't remember that his Blood Oath would keep him out of Celestia.

Ergo, you don't remember the afterlife when you're resurrected.


That's solid logic! Or else, that will become a continuity problem! :smalltongue:


Anyway, I disagree that "faith" is proven through spells. Wizards cast spells as well, and might claim priests are just tapping into magical forces in similar ways as any spell casters.

[Kish]

Anyway, I disagree that "faith" is proven through spells. Wizards cast spells as well, and might claim priests are just tapping into magical forces in similar ways as any spell casters.
They might. A wizard who assumes every priest who claims to communicate directly with a god is lying, in the face of overt evidence of the priest's power and in the absence of any claim that gods are either omnipotent or wholly benevolent, is either very stupid or very paranoid (or both), however. The type of "faith" you're talking about doesn't exist in D&D. Don't bring real-world religious assumptions to D&D.

[abaddon667]

They might. A wizard who assumes every priest who claims to communicate directly with a god is lying, in the face of overt evidence of the priest's power and in the absence of any claim that gods are either omnipotent or wholly benevolent, is either very stupid or very paranoid (or both), however. The type of "faith" you're talking about doesn't exist in D&D. Don't bring real-world religious assumptions to D&D.

A wizard doesn't have to believe the priest is lying; just that is he is delusional. Maybe they just believe its a different power source. In my D&D world, every religion can get you magic spells, even one the person makes up. Hell, some priests can get spells on a "philosophically atheistic belief system" (like buddhism). This would lead a logical magician to believe that preists simply tap into an energy through there rites and rituals, (much like "chi") and that any contact with "gods" is simply acessing this energy, and not communiting with an unseen God.

I disagree with your claim that the "faith" of our world doesn't exist in D&D. I'll bet Miko believed that the evil she smited was going to go a "punishment" hell." The followers of the faith (NPCs) must have "real world"-like faith.

[Qov]

Fortunately we can avoid such a discussion and the thread locking it could precipitate. Why? Regardless of how certainly the clerics communicate with their gods, it's quite a different thing from actually being there. Even certain knowledge that a reckoning is coming doesn't always wake people up to smell the coffee.

It doesn't take an act of faith to know that there will be a test on classroom material at the end of the term, that the credit card company will charge you for your purchases, or that sex can lead to pregnancy. So why is that first midterm, bill or late period such a shock to so many people?

factotum found a superb demonstration that the resurrected don't remember the lessons learned on the celestial plane. Do we have any others?

[Stormwolf]

The OP is forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that the D&D world view is very different from our own. In our world god(s) choose not to interfere directly (if they do, their manifestations are obscure and reported by a cynical media as mere natural phenomena or explained away by science... it's easy to see why they gave up and went to find a less-disbelieving species :smallbiggrin:). In the world of D&D and many other fantasy worlds the gods are very real and interfere directly in the affairs of mortals (in the way that the Greek and Norse gods were wont to do). To borrow from Terry Pratchett, it's hard not to believe in the gods in a world where the gods throw bricks though the windows of atheist's homes. Belief in such a world is more a matter of having the fear or respect for entities that could kill or ruin you (or vice versa) entirely at their whim or fancy... assuming you come to their notice at all.

Why would people choose to be evil in a world like this? Well, for the same reasons people are evil in our own world. The rewards of Evil are more instantly gratifying than those of Good. Power, wealth and other status symbols to impress other members of your peer-species are more easily gained through fear and intimidation, theft and cruelty. The alignment of a species is indicative of the likelihood of any particular individual choosing to seek elevation by those means. The added 'bonus' in fantasy worlds is that the very best at being evil might gain a 'promotion' on entering the afterlife, in the same way that an extremely pious 'good' man may achieve sainthood in this world.

My answer to the main point of this thread, is that as usual it's up to an individual DM what characters may or may not remember. Personally I allow characters to 'remember' snapshots, impressions and general vague hints rather than everything about the afterlife, in the same way that you might remember a vivid / lucid dream. It keeps things mysterious whilst allowing for useful plot devices to be introduced into the story. A character may remember nothing more than a feeling of contentment and peace, or eternal torment. They may remember nothing and then get 'flashbacks' at another time.

[Pie Guy]

As an atheist, I find this vaugely insulting.

On another point, if you don't remember the afterlife, then what proof is there? Gods don't do much.

And I'm talking about all religions. If gods are all powerful, then why is there pain?

No offense. Just my belief.

[Qov]

[Off topic stuff about real world religions and lack thereof.]
I guess you came in the middle. We're actually talking about D&D gods, from the game, so no one needs to get offended. And we can tell D&D gods exist because they're in the reference books.

[Querzis]

As an atheist, I find this vaugely insulting.

On another point, if you don't remember the afterlife, then what proof is there? Gods don't do much.

And I'm talking about all religions. If gods are all powerful, then why is there pain?

No offense. Just my belief.

Look I'm atheist too but this is ridiculous. Pain is not a bad thing at all. People who cant feel pain (its called congenital analgia) usually end up horribly wounded and crippled fast since they dont realize they are bitting their tongue or crushing their own theets. They dont know one of their muscle just ripped or that one of their bone is broken and will still try to move. Pain make you stronger.

And in the real world, you might have a point about the afterlife but in a world where gods actually appear in the mortal plane sometimes, where there are lots of outsiders like demons and angels and where you can actually plane shift to go see the afterlife yourself its irrevelant. You still need faith in the D&D world if you are a commoner who never left his village but not if you are an adventurers.

Anyway, back to the topic, in D&D I think I remember that in the rule you really dont remember what happened while you were dead...but you are also not supposed to keep your levels and Roy is still obviously a high level fighter in the afterlife (he even easely killed one guy from an evil groups) so just because its in the rule it doesnt mean the Giant is gonna do it.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Real world off-topicness aside, I think that both ways are possible-remembering and not remembering.

The Giant has chosen before to have characters forget very important plot points (the oracle...ouch...), so I don't think it would be unreasonable for him to make Roy forget exactly where Elan and the others are when he resses.

Unfortunately, the actions of a number of the NPCs in the afterlife seem to lean more toward remembering. Enigmatic spirit communication aside, since I'm betting on the restrictions on that being tied directly to being a spirit, Roy's relatives have gone to too much trouble giving him advice, and I doubt they would have if they knew he was just going to forget it all...

[Superglucose]

I think PCs should remember the afterlife when they're Ressed, because the Afterlife is literally just a continuation of one's life as it is explained in OotS. And I think the argument that the blood oath would stop Eugene from entering is false as well. I think the reason that Eugene is not allowed to enter the after life NOW (as opposed to before) is because the blood oath is now impossible to fulfill with him. It's shaky logic, but I see no reason why people wouldn't remember the afterlife.

And as for believing the person... yeah. Go up to the average person and start talking about how wonderful the afterlife was, and that you died and were risen from the dead. How long till people slap ya in a straight jacket?

[abaddon667]

As an atheist, I find this vaugely insulting.

On another point, if you don't remember the afterlife, then what proof is there? Gods don't do much.

And I'm talking about all religions. If gods are all powerful, then why is there pain?

No offense. Just my belief.

Ok, I started this topic, and I'm an atheist myself. Are you referring to the topic or to "stormwolf's" statement:

"it's easy to see why they gave up and went to find a less-disbelieving species )."

I disagree that a god could find a "less-believing" world, since I think too many believe already...but its a moot point completely to the subject at hand!


I think PCs should remember the afterlife when they're Ressed, because the Afterlife is literally just a continuation of one's life as it is explained in OotS. And I think the argument that the blood oath would stop Eugene from entering is false as well. I think the reason that Eugene is not allowed to enter the after life NOW (as opposed to before) is because the blood oath is now impossible to fulfill with him. It's shaky logic, but I see no reason why people wouldn't remember the afterlife.

And as for believing the person... yeah. Go up to the average person and start talking about how wonderful the afterlife was, and that you died and were risen from the dead. How long till people slap ya in a straight jacket?


If enough people reported it, then people would not be considered insane. What would stop people from purposely killing people to have them explore the afterlife, then raise them, and have them give detailed expanations of it. I just think it would not be a good thing for Roy to remember his time in the afterlife.

[ZeroNumerous]

If enough people reported it, then people would not be considered insane. What would stop people from purposely killing people to have them explore the afterlife, then raise them, and have them give detailed expanations of it. I just think it would not be a good thing for Roy to remember his time in the afterlife.

Because:
A) People with PC classes are rare.
B) Clerics capable of casting raise dead are even more rare.
C) Everyone knows how the afterlife is(Mt. Celestia is paradise. Mechanus is clockwork. Limbo is chaotic. Baator is clockwork evil. The Abyss is chaotic evil. That one battle plane is.. well.. Filled with battle. It takes a grand total of a 1 rank in Know(Religion) and taking 10 to figure all that out.
D) Reviving people costs truckloads of money. Commoners are lucky to have 10 GP by the time they're old, little lone 5000 GP to pay for a diamond that they're only going to use once.

Onto the main issue at hand: I don't think Fighters should be included in any reasonable party. But since it's Rich's comic, Rich can include/exclude whatever he feels like. He can also choose what his characters remember/don't remember. As such, theres no point in debating this as it will not have any bearing on the comic proper.

[Laurentio]

What would stop people from purposely killing people to have them explore the afterlife, then raise them, and have them give detailed expanations of it. I just think it would not be a good thing for Roy to remember his time in the afterlife.
There are enough reason to consider a bad thing to have Roy NOT remember his time in the afterlife. So I'll leave this to the Giant's good judgement.

About killing people for reporting... why? Summon is a cheap spell, and you can ask summoned angels or devil to provide information on their plane of existance. So, there is no mistery at all.
Commune. "Is there a paradise?" "Yes".
Plane Travel. From Astral Plane, you can go everywhere, if strong enough.

Laurentio

[Weiser_Cain]

The existence of clerics already put the kibosh on faith in most fantasy settings. And at least in FR, the only true hell is for those that don't worship any gods. You just go live with your gods. Of course there's always lichdom...

[Helios Sunshard]

If i remember correctly, beings that come back to life remember little things about the afterlife (as it has been said before, like a dream).

Anyway, I would like that Roy could remember the time with his little brother (even if it is only like a dream).

[Useless]

I like the idea that he'll only remember key points, but having been there for 3 1/2 months, chance are he's going to have forgotten bits and pieces anyway.


Slight side note, for those who say Belkar's going to enjoy hell...
Hell is usually a specific torture for whoever it is. Like in Krynn, they say the worst sort of hell for a Kender is to make him bored. Chances are Belkar may end up in a hell where there's no one to kill, no alcohol, no whores or anything.

[Holammer]

It is said that "drag real physics into a discussion about a fantasy story, God kills a catgirl". So thread carefully in this discussion, think of the catgirls!

Anyways, I believe Roy will remember everything when his soul goes back to his body and the material plane. We're talking an environment where gods or their corporal avatars themselves might come up to you and smack you in the head for being an ass or simply to have a splendid lil' conversation because you're such a nice guy. In fact, gaining enough power in life for a powerful being makes it a possibility to ascend into godhood. It's quite the possibility that Xykon is walking the path of Vecna story wise.

Unlike our everyday life here in the real world, gods and the afterlife is a very real aspect of life on the prime.

[Zoomy]

Slight side note, for those who say Belkar's going to enjoy hell...
Hell is usually a specific torture for whoever it is. Like in Krynn, they say the worst sort of hell for a Kender is to make him bored. Chances are Belkar may end up in a hell where there's no one to kill, no alcohol, no whores or anything.

Didn't those people say that in D&D land, "Hell" is merely a paradise for evil creatures? I'm not too sure mind you (total D&D newb I am).

[HolderofSecrets]

Didn't those people say that in D&D land, "Hell" is merely a paradise for evil creatures? I'm not too sure mind you (total D&D newb I am).

Congrats!! Your understanding of the difference Hell in the Real world and Hell in D&D is far better then most normal people. In D&D though Hell is only a Paradise to the Beings who already Rule over Hell(s) (Devil, Demons and Evil Gods). On the other hand there are multiple Planes that act as hell in D&D. Primarily it is Bartoor and the Abyss that people think of. Belkar being Chaotic Evil will end up in the Abyss more then likely.

[VanBuren]

Fortunately we can avoid such a discussion and the thread locking it could precipitate. Why? Regardless of how certainly the clerics communicate with their gods, it's quite a different thing from actually being there. Even certain knowledge that a reckoning is coming doesn't always wake people up to smell the coffee.

It doesn't take an act of faith to know that there will be a test on classroom material at the end of the term, that the credit card company will charge you for your purchases, or that sex can lead to pregnancy. So why is that first midterm, bill or late period such a shock to so many people?

factotum found a superb demonstration that the resurrected don't remember the lessons learned on the celestial plane. Do we have any others?

Roy: And that move you did? Where you killed the Cleric in one shot?
Horace: Oh, yeah. Heh. Great Feat. Pain in the ass to learn, though.
Roy: Oh.
Horace: When we get back to the house, I'll see what I can do to teach you the basics. You'll have to master it on your own.

Why would he bother if he was just going to forget it?

[Shadic]

Well uh..

Doesn't this adventurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) seem to remember his trips to the afterlife?

Just saying.

[abaddon667]

Well uh..

Doesn't this adventurer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) seem to remember his trips to the afterlife?

Just saying.

Maybe he remembers his previous trips only after he's dead again...

Just saying...:smallbiggrin:

[Shadic]

That could be true as well, but it's kind of hard to argue logically. :smallconfused:

[David Argall]

The answer will depend on plot needs. If our writer gets some bright idea, say where Roy witnesses some vital fact the party would really benefit from knowing, it is highly likely he will forget everything. If he gets some misunderstanding, say seeing Celia kissing Belkar for rescuing Roy's body, but not seeing the rescue, then he will remember.

[Demented]

Why would he bother if he was just going to forget it?

Defend himself from ever more evil adventuring parties?

A bigger plothole is why, if you can fight and otherwise defend yourself when dead, why you can't just cast plane shift, end up on the material plane, and continue your life from before as a gh—Oh right, that's what Roy's doing already.

Y'know, Druids would probably be in high demand...

Ghost: "Hey there."

Druid: "Ack! Who are you!?"

Ghost: "I'll pay you 10,000gp to fashion me a new body with reincarnate."

Druid: "But... you're dead, you can't pay me with anything!"

Ghost: "I used to be a pirate. I'll tell you where my hoard is."

Druid: "Y'know, as the purveyor of all things natural, I really don't think..."

Ghost: "Why do you think you have the reincarnate spell in the first place? So you can bring back a chicken if it dies before its time has come!?"

Druid: "Point taken. Can't you just go bug a cleric or something, though? I mean, with reincarnate, you might end up as a kobold."

Ghost: "Oh, I'm a little old to be using resurrection. But don't worry about that; I made sure to stab myself to death. I've done this several times before. Fun times. Now hurry up, will ya? I've been doing this for centuries, so if it stops working now because one druid got his panties in a wad and didn't want to cast the spell, I will be pissed."

Marut: "Yo."

Ghost: "Ah, !@#$%."

[Qov]

Maybe he remembers his previous trips only after he's dead again.
That's makes perfect sense.

[Swordwind]

Who needs faith when a 50 foot Thor will appear and "save" your village from a rampaging monster if you pray to him?

[chibibar]

That is the problem with mixing real life with gaming world. The gods in D&D world are establish and known. There isn't a "mysterious" force or being like in the real world. People in D&D HAVE and will continue to interact with the gods.

This being said that a spirit is just a soul that can move between planes. It is no different than a mage or cleric spirit travel or portal into other realm (like Celestial) Death is just another state of being :) Roy should remember what is going on and now will continue to do well so he can get back to the afterlife.

Now..... here are some "sketchy" part that would work in many campaign. Roy may not remember the details what was going on IN Celestial world, but could remember that he was very happy there. Roy could remember the time he was moving around as a ghost, but he may have sketchy information (like Deja Vu type)

It is all up to the GM really.

Remember folks... never ever ever mix real life religion with gaming... you just asking for trouble.

[Vreejack]

Roy: And that move you did? Where you killed the Cleric in one shot?
Horace: Oh, yeah. Heh. Great Feat. Pain in the ass to learn, though.
Roy: Oh.
Horace: When we get back to the house, I'll see what I can do to teach you the basics. You'll have to master it on your own.

Why would he bother if he was just going to forget it?

At the risk of introducing real physics...

Memory of skills is completely separate from memory of events. Many people with amnesia can perform their old job with complete competence but simply cannot remember having learned it. Obviously people with amnesia do not necessarily forget how to talk---their native language or a foreign one---, and the same would be true for any skill: weapons, musical instruments, anything.

There are a lot of variations on this, but I wanted to point out that forgetting events without losing skills is realistic and actually expected in typical literary amnesia.

[Weiser_Cain]

There's still talk to dead spells so it'd be a useless mechanic.

[VanBuren]

Memory of skills is completely separate from memory of events. Many people with amnesia can perform their old job with complete competence but simply cannot remember having learned it. Obviously people with amnesia do not necessarily forget how to talk---their native language or a foreign one---, and the same would be true for any skill: weapons, musical instruments, anything.

Would Roy remember that he had this new feat in the first place? He may now how to do it if the opportunity presents itself, but doesn't he need to be reminded that he knows it in the first place? Or are we going with muscle-memory on this one?

[sickler]

Would you believe everything you hear about the afterlife from people claiming they've died and come back?

Neither would everyone in D&D.

[Weiser_Cain]

Would you believe everything you hear about the afterlife from people claiming they've died and come back?

Neither would everyone in D&D.

Well it depends on your charisma.

[factotum]

Horace: When we get back to the house, I'll see what I can do to teach you the basics. You'll have to master it on your own.

Why would he bother if he was just going to forget it?

Roy doesn't know what will happen if he ever gets resurrected. Horace, on the other hand, might well think that Roy WON'T ever be resurrected...it was three months since he'd died at the point he made that offer, after all.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

If he gets some misunderstanding, say seeing Celia kissing Belkar for rescuing Roy's body, but not seeing the rescue, then he will remember.

Whether it's likely or not, this would be pretty awesomely funny...
:belkar: :biggrin:

[Xanos]

Would you believe everything you hear about the afterlife from people claiming they've died and come back?

Neither would everyone in D&D.
This is, obviously, wrong. You cannot compare the two things, for one simple reason:
Resurrection.
If we die in real life.. There's no way to come back.
In D&D, there're probably a majority of people who know of Ressurection, or at least that there're some rare ways to come back. It's not impossible - and it's not even extremely hard, either.
I'm pretty sure, that if I was a citizen in a D&D village, and I'd heard some vague rumors of being able to come back, and knowing magic excisted (I think most do) - I'd believe, or at least be interested, in someone claiming to have seen the afterlife.

[chibibar]

also think about this, if there isn't any story or "goal" of the afterlife, then people would amass wealth and keep ressurect forever (until they are too old to ressurect)

[Weiser_Cain]

also think about this, if there isn't any story or "goal" of the afterlife, then people would amass wealth and keep ressurect forever (until they are too old to ressurect)

Well for one it's really expensive to be resurrected most people aren't high level and or couldn't afford it.
Two it's really nice if you're good (and if you're the right type of bad) so there's that. I'm not entirely sure Roy'd be so eager to come back if he didn't want to save existence.
Last, though I may be wrong about this but you can't be raised if you die if old age.

[ShellBullet]

There is also the fact that there are more than two afterlife possibilities...

For example Lawful Good and Neutral Good are both good people, however they don't end to same afterlife after they die...

So telling your experiences from lawful good afterlife isn't really that important for chaotic good people.

[chibibar]

Well for one it's really expensive to be resurrected most people aren't high level and or couldn't afford it.
Two it's really nice if you're good (and if you're the right type of bad) so there's that. I'm not entirely sure Roy'd be so eager to come back if he didn't want to save existence.
Last, though I may be wrong about this but you can't be raised if you die if old age.

yup hence in my () I said "until they are too old"

Even with resurrection doesn't rejuvenate. So if a person is 100 years old and died, when resurrected, he/she still 100 years old :) (just alive that is all)

[Alfryd]

Why would anyone be evil, if after they die, they "know" they are going to hell (assuming hell is a place where evil people are punished, and not just a place evil souls/demons hang out.)

D&D religions do not operate on Faith, and everyone knows what the afterlives are like whether they die or not (although may not know what their alignment will ultimately be judged as.)
Detect Evil?

Benevollin(tm) supplements. Good for what ails ya!

Similarly, the Nine Hells do NOT exist for the punishment of evil souls.
They nevertheless tend to be enormously unpleasant places for the overwhelming majority of said Evil souls.

Didn't those people say that in D&D land, "Hell" is merely a paradise for evil creatures? I'm not too sure mind you (total D&D newb I am).

I get the feeling that Belkar would be happy in hell, because he can be SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR there continiusly...
Yeah, except that every shred of self-awareness, memory or identity will be stripped away from him in the most agonizing possible fashion as part of the process of becoming a Mane, occupying the lowest rung on the demonic power rankings, thereby revoking his ever-so-precious shoeless-war-god-mojo. (Or so I understand.) The denizens of the Abyss have absolutely no intention of giving fresh talent a level playing field.

[Alex Warlorn]

(assuming hell is a place where evil people are punished, and not just a place evil souls/demons hang out.)



The irony of that statement is that Heaven is Heaven because you're surrounded by nice people. Hell is Hell because you're surrounded by awful people.

[ShellBullet]

Yeah, except that every shred of self-awareness, memory or identity will be stripped away from him in the most agonizing possible fashion as part of the process of becoming a Mane, occupying the lowest rung on the demonic power rankings, thereby revoking his ever-so-precious shoeless-war-god-mojo. (Or so I understand.) The denizens of the Abyss have absolutely no intention of giving fresh talent a level playing field.

Perhaps, but considering that we are talking about Belkar, he would regain that title rather fast...After all, 13 level people are quite powerful...

[Syraider]

I think that when you come back to life should not agree to what happened in the sky by then everyone would know that the sky and there would be others saying it is very good


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[Loyal2NES]

The thing is, in worlds like our own (i.e. "IRL"), it's not clearly established whether or not religion is solid fact.

In high fantasies such as OotS' setting, there is absolutely no doubt that the Gods and afterlife exist. After all, Clerics receive their power FROM the gods,

[Droodle]

You realise that Eugene himself has died at least six times and been resurrected each time? Also, we saw when Roy died that the interview with the deva to determine if you can enter Celestia occurs very soon after the death--within a few hours at most. Now, Eugene's tombstone in On the Origin of PCs suggests that at least one of the times he died he wasn't resurrected until the next year, and it seems fairly unlikely that he wasn't in the afterlife long enough on that occasion to have had his interview; yet once he was brought back he didn't remember that his Blood Oath would keep him out of Celestia.

Ergo, you don't remember the afterlife when you're resurrected.At the time he was "out" for a year, Eugene may still have been pursuing his oath.

[Alfryd]

Perhaps, but considering that we are talking about Belkar, he would regain that title rather fast...After all, 13 level people are quite powerful...
But that's the thing- all manes have the same (rather modest) CR. You can't take them levels with ya, unless you're good-aligned.

I think it's implied that normal characters do remember the afterlife, given Warforged are specifically noted as not doing so.

[SPoD]

But that's the thing- all manes have the same (rather modest) CR. You can't take them levels with ya, unless you're good-aligned.

Good-aligned characters become petitioners according to the rules, they don't keep their levels either. So if Roy wasn't turned into a no-name classless Petitioner, we can conclude that Belkar wouldn't be turned into a no-name classless Manes. OOTS world doesn't need to follow D&D-world rules.

Plus, to pull a page from your playbook, Rich has stated in Paladin Blues that if Belkar died, we would follow Belkar into the Abyss. I find it difficult to reconcile that statement with Belkar's soul being turned into a mindless extraplanar slug.

[LosingCTRL]

I would note that, according to DnD's Forgotten Realms rulebooks, the dead are not judged by whether they are good or bad (unless they are absolutely despicably evil, in which case Kelemvor may set them aside fro punishment), but instead are separated out by whether or not they have a God.

There are three kinds of dead people: The Faithless, the False, and the Faithful. The Faithless never believed in a God, only only claimed that they did, and so they are sent to the wall of Kelemvor's city of judgement, where their souls slowly dissolve into the wall's foundations. The False are those who have betrayed their deity They are taken into the city proper and tortured. At last, there are the Faithful, which include people from every alignment. They are divided up and sent along to live eternally on the homeplane of their respective deity.

However, Belkar seems to be faithless, as he has not given his devotion to any deity, as far as we know. Being faithless and very evil, he may be stolen by a Balor in the Fugue Plane (who try to grab souls to keep the Abyss's army strong) and be taken to the Abyss to be reincarnated as a lesser demon. That could be what Roy was referring to, though judging from the way that Giant handles death and dying in Order of the Stick, I'd say it's more likely that he handles good and evil much like they are handled in real life. That is, the good get eternal bliss, while the evil get eternal torment.

For more info, read here (http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/Gods.htm).

[Alfryd]

Good-aligned characters become petitioners according to the rules, they don't keep their levels either. So if Roy wasn't turned into a no-name classless Petitioner, we can conclude that Belkar wouldn't be turned into a no-name classless Manes. OOTS world doesn't need to follow D&D-world rules.
I believe the important distinction here is that the good-aligned planes don't torture you brutally until you sign up for your petitionerhood. Besides, it never made much sense to me. "Hooray! In exchange for a lifetime's unswerving fealty, I get to be stripped of all class levels and memory of my former life!"
Sounds borderline Evil to me.

Plus, to pull a page from your playbook, Rich has stated in Paladin Blues that if Belkar died, we would follow Belkar into the Abyss. I find it difficult to reconcile that statement with Belkar's soul being turned into a mindless extraplanar slug.
Well, they might not get around to it right away...

:belkar: "So, what're we we doing around here? Anything planned for next Saturday? ...I can bring tacos."
:sabine: "Um. Well, yes... but in your case you've been scheduled for Advanced Mane-ification, starting at 12. I'll be sure to look you up if you keep any vestige of your prior identity."
:belkar: "Huh?"
:sabine: "You'll be converted into a demon. Just like me!"
:belkar: "...what, you mean complete with the... I'm not sure that... I mean, I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with the..."
:sabine: "Oh, no, no. ...I mean, a different form of demon. Very different."
:belkar: "Sweet. Do I get horns? Breathe fire? Any special immunities?"
:sabine: "...sure. Why not."
:belkar: "This place is awesome!"

.

[Kish]

What the Forgotten Realms rulebooks say on the subject is very explicitly not meant to apply to any campaign setting but the Forgotten Realms. Beyond that, it obviously didn't apply to Roy, since his case worker dismissed his lack of religious interest as meaningless to his afterlife.

[factotum]

Besides, it never made much sense to me. "Hooray! In exchange for a lifetime's unswerving fealty, I get to be stripped of all class levels and memory of my former life!"
Sounds borderline Evil to me.


That's a very western point of view, though. Nirvana, the ultimate goal of Buddhism, has a very similar idea of completely losing your sense of self, and I doubt anyone believes that IT is evil...

[ssjKammak]

That's a very western point of view, though. Nirvana, the ultimate goal of Buddhism, has a very similar idea of completely losing your sense of self, and I doubt anyone believes that IT is evil...

Well that depends, not everything is for everyone else, different religions have believed other religions to be evil, since there were religious sects. Just because the idea wasn't conceived as evil, doesn't mean it will be interpreted that way by everyone.

This whole thread pretty much demonstrates that.

Just an aussies 2 cents

[Alex Warlorn]

I believe the important distinction here is that the good-aligned planes don't torture you brutally until you sign up for your petitionerhood. Besides, it never made much sense to me. "Hooray! In exchange for a lifetime's unswerving fealty, I get to be stripped of all class levels and memory of my former life!"
Sounds borderline Evil to me.

Well, they might not get around to it right away...

:belkar: "So, what're we we doing around here? Anything planned for next Saturday? ...I can bring tacos."
:sabine: "Um. Well, yes... but in your case you've been scheduled for Advanced Mane-ification, starting at 12. I'll be sure to look you up if you keep any vestige of your prior identity."
:belkar: "Huh?"
:sabine: "You'll be converted into a demon. Just like me!"
:belkar: "...what, you mean complete with the... I'm not sure that... I mean, I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with the..."
:sabine: "Oh, no, no. ...I mean, a different form of demon. Very different."
:belkar: "Sweet. Do I get horns? Breathe fire? Any special immunities?"
:sabine: "...sure. Why not."
:belkar: "This place is awesome!"

.

:belkar: "How's this work anyway?"

:sabine: "Nothing much to it, we just strip you of your name, your memories, leaving nothing behind but the desire to kill and bring suffering to others that lies at the core of your being. Then the Abyss tosses you into itself, and watches to see if you can eat enough little fish to become a big fish, before being eaten by a bigger fish. The Abyss itself doesn't mind really whose in charge inside it as long as plenty of bloodshed is havoc is going around."

[WuanAnselm]

:belkar: "How's this work anyway?"

:sabine: "Nothing much to it, we just strip you of your name, your memories, leaving nothing behind but the desire to kill and bring suffering to others that lies at the core of your being. Then the Abyss tosses you into itself, and watches to see if you can eat enough little fish to become a big fish, before being eaten by a bigger fish. The Abyss itself doesn't mind really whose in charge inside it as long as plenty of bloodshed is havoc is going around."

:belkar: This place IS awesome!

Heh, the image of Belkar crawling his way trough the demonic ranks until becoming a Baalor is something I would enjoy very much