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Totally Guy
2008-02-25, 01:06 PM
I've just started a new character and as a RP aid I'm using an accent to split ingame talk from out of character. The concept is very much an African style cleric, which relies on stereotypes to some degree.

I got a few laughs at first and my companions were waiting for the Botswanan accent to falter (I could have done a little bit of a Ghanaian accent but couldn't keep it up for RP), but the accent survived.

Then I saw some TV thing that was parodying black and white minstrals and I suddenly felt a tad unconfortable with my character situation. Bear in mind I'm a white guy and my gaming group is all white middle class. So I felt uncomfortable for a few hours there.

I've decided since I started writing this post that this is not racist and that I'd probably be relying on stereotypes if I was a Scottish Dwarf, a Nordic Ranger or an American Space cowboy.

Have you ever felt uncomfortable using a stereotype?

All I can say is that I'm glad it's not LARP :smallsmile:

FatherMalkav
2008-02-25, 01:15 PM
I hope i phrase this in a neutral way:

Many, but not all, stereotypes have some kernel of truth to the, like Patty being an Irish slur because many America immigrants were named Patrick. As long as your character isn’t meant to be hurtful and you do honest research into the subject so you can separate stereotype from truth, you should be OK. I run a LARP at Dragon*Con every year and we have a lot of these issues (we've been in the Wild West the last few years, so some racial slurs have come up in play, and we make sure it's ONLY in play) and again, we just make sure everyone handles it maturely, and so far there hasn't bee an issue.

Nero24200
2008-02-25, 01:27 PM
I wouldn't consider it offensive. What makes other cultures interesting is the fact that things are done differently from how you would normally have them. If you have a character whom has an aspect from a specific culture tied to it, why should it be offensive to tie another aspect to it?

Besides, I'm Scottish and I don't have a problem with others playing their dwarves like that (in fact, my gamming group usally joke about 'The only good dwarf being a Scottish one')

valadil
2008-02-25, 01:37 PM
The fact that you can differentiate a Botswanan accent from a Ghanaian one means you're a lot more well educated about both cultures than your average middle class white guy gamer. I don't think you're in danger of accidental racism. If you start doing stereotypical black things, which I'm not going to list on this forum but any standup comedian would be happy to enumerate, just by virtue of being an african character, then you might have a problem.

Keep in mind that it's just roleplaying. You can play a character who is a racist without actually being one yourself. I've done it. It was interesting and really different from any other character I've ever played. Doesn't make me a racist just like playing a sorcerer doesn't make me a mage.

ColdBrew
2008-02-25, 01:38 PM
Oh boy...

My gaming group ran a one-shot d20 game set during a zombie apocalypse in "Chipmunk City." Now, we're all very progressive, nonracist people, which is why we think racism is so funny. It's just absurd to us. The central theme of the game was that you must play a stereotype, to the hilt. All in-character speech must employ an accent or mannerism of some kind, and each race/culture actually had mechanical bonuses/penalties applied. I believe it was based on gender, race, and culture. I won't get into the specifics because this thread would be locked in a heartbeat, but you can probably guess at some of the stat/skill mods.

We all had a blast, since nobody took it seriously. It was essentially a way for us to poke fun at stereotypes, by taking them to their ridiculous extremes.

TempusCCK
2008-02-25, 02:50 PM
It's an entirely fictional character. Saying it's racist to act like a person of african descent just because you're white is technically racism as well.

Just because you're white and created a character who acts like black stereotypes isn't negatively racist unless you're using it to make a serious point about a real person or real people in life. It's your character, that's how the character acts, if someone gets upset about it, they're taking it the wrong way.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-25, 03:18 PM
Besides, I'm Scottish and I don't have a problem with others playing their dwarves like that (in fact, my gamming group usally joke about 'The only good dwarf being a Scottish one')

"Welcome to all things Scottish, if it's not Scottish it's CRAP!"

I don't understand why people get offended over things. I don't think I've honestly ever been offended by anything. Of course, I'm part-everything-from-Europe, but still, I don't see why people get offended over things like that. I don't do that so why should I care? And if they're making fun of something I DO do, then I punch them in the face for making fun of me. Or laugh. I'm kinda unpredictable that way.

Riffington
2008-02-25, 03:47 PM
Stereotypes are fun to play with. They're even more fun if they make you or your friends a bit uncomfortable. But you have to know your audience. Are the people in your game losing enjoyment because of what you're doing?

Overlard
2008-02-25, 04:19 PM
Just remember: Everyone's A Little Bit Racist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9CSnlb-ymA)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-25, 04:34 PM
Just because you're white and created a character who acts like black stereotypes isn't negatively racist unless you're using it to make a serious point about a real person or real people in life. It's your character, that's how the character acts, if someone gets upset about it, they're taking it the wrong way.

Just to go against the overwhelming tide of 'oh, it's fine to play a blatant stereotype black and white minstrels reminded you of it, then I'd be cautious)]', remember that's it's important to avoid getting desensitised to things like this - although you may not mean it, it's probably best to avoid it becoming an acceptable thing to portray someone as a stereotypical character, just since that sort of thing should be kept at arms' length from people.

Still, this may be because I have an axe to grind - so-called 'gypsies' get a fairly stereotypical presentation in DnD, and culture generally (my dad's Romani).

Jayngfet
2008-02-25, 10:40 PM
if you honestly research and put an effort into it I see no reason why not to use one or two stereotypes.

Wooter
2008-02-25, 10:55 PM
If it's just an accent then I see no problem. Unless you're being "Lazy black man who loves chicken" or something offensive like that then I wouldn't worry. Maybe you should just ask the other players what they think?

Just make sure "African shaman" is just part of the character. Give him a distinct personality not wholly dependent on his ethnic background.

Totally Guy
2008-02-26, 07:10 AM
It's an entirely fictional character. Saying it's racist to act like a person of african descent just because you're white is technically racism as well.

That's what I noticed as I was posting.

Nobody seems to be uncomfortable and as soon as someone asks I'll recall the cool backstory.

PnP Fan
2008-02-26, 08:40 AM
What exactly is it you are trying to do, and what are you doing?
If you're just using an accent, heck, everyone does that, and it's certainly no big deal. (esp. if you can differentiate between two different African languages)
If you're actually doing some research (or using knowledge already earned), and actually trying to portray elements of a foreign culture, kudos to you!
Playing up a different culture, and how it might react to "oddities" of your own? Even better, now it's an intellectual excercise that can be used to examine your own preconceptions. Great!
But if you're just going for cheap laughs about negative images that your culture has about Africans (or any other culture/racial group for that matter) well, that's not so cool.
My group has dealt with a guy who would play up all kinds of negative stereotypes, particularly about black people. He has basically been banned from our group, and has forever earned himself a nickname that we use when we talk about him (because we don't want to give him the dignity of using his real name, its a weird thing we do. . . ). And believe me, we are normally a very forgiving group for most gamer weirdness.

Totally Guy
2008-02-26, 01:00 PM
He's a respectful character, a wise cleric and adventurer. No cheap laughs, there are some laughs as with any gaming session, in fact I'd go as far as to say laughing is essential to a good session.

For a brief moment, I kind of drew a parallel between doing an accent and "verbal blacking-up". This has been pretty much debunked as about as racist as a Scottish Dwarf. So all's well.

Edit: That is the concept of a Dwarf being Scottish. Not the actual dwarf singing racial slurs.:smalltongue:

Telonius
2008-02-26, 01:10 PM
No need to worry. Rich isn't in danger of being a racist because Roy has darker skin than Elan, and no African-American writer is in danger of being a racist just because they create a lighter-skinned character. As long as the character is respected - as long as it's a real character - it should be fine.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-26, 01:15 PM
The other thing that might help (not saying you're doing anything wrong, this is a conscience thing) is to smash negative stereotypes into little tiny pieces.- for example, the chainmail bikini thing. Answer? Play a feminist female knight (the other side effect is destroying the 14-16 year old male stereotype...).

ashmanonar
2008-02-26, 01:18 PM
If it's just an accent then I see no problem. Unless you're being "Lazy black man who loves chicken" or something offensive like that then I wouldn't worry. Maybe you should just ask the other players what they think?

Just make sure "African shaman" is just part of the character. Give him a distinct personality not wholly dependent on his ethnic background.

As well, it gives access to some interesting fluff in terms of spell-casting. Don't treat it as the mechanical "I cast this spell," maybe use some role-playing to "call upon the power of the ancestors," or however you decide to handle it. It would definitely push you away from the realm of "stereotype" into more of a uniquely rped character.

Person_Man
2008-02-26, 02:46 PM
Just give him a heavy French accent instead. No one cares if you parody the French. Or, since you're in England, you can give him an American accent. I understand we're just as reviled everywhere else as they are here.

PnP Fan
2008-02-26, 02:48 PM
From what you're describing, doesn't sound like you've anything to worry about.
Another thing that I find to be a good (but imperfect) litmus test is this: Would my friend (of relevant ethnic/cultural background) be upset if I did this? Would it cause hurt feelings between us?

But it sounds like you're doing okay to me, from what I can tell.

TempusCCK
2008-02-26, 02:56 PM
Just give him a heavy French accent instead. No one cares if you parody the French. Or, since you're in England, you can give him an American accent. I understand we're just as reviled everywhere else as they are here.

Better yet, mix his French and African accents together for a really weird accent!

In human history there is a time period where an educated African would have probably known French.

ColdBrew
2008-02-26, 04:08 PM
What, Haitian?

Behold_the_Void
2008-02-26, 04:44 PM
Better yet, mix his French and African accents together for a really weird accent!

In human history there is a time period where an educated African would have probably known French.

That's not uncommon amongst the areas of Africa with French influence. Or maybe I'm thinking of island nations, but I know there's something like that already.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-26, 04:49 PM
As well, it gives access to some interesting fluff in terms of spell-casting. Don't treat it as the mechanical "I cast this spell," maybe use some role-playing to "call upon the power of the ancestors," or however you decide to handle it. It would definitely push you away from the realm of "stereotype" into more of a uniquely rped character.

I'd be a bit cautious about equating 'African' with 'ancestor worship'.

Prometheus
2008-02-26, 07:15 PM
I've found by far the easiest way to prevent a character or culture from being a stereotype is to blend unrelated cultures into the idea. That way, the only thing that is left is the common ingredient that you had intended.

For "african" cleric, for example, you might have him be physically black and even speak with a Botswana accent, but characterize his religion in terms more closely associated with Native American or Asian traditions, rather than African ones. The common ingredient would be animist desert tradition, without saying that all Africans live in the desert or all Native Americans were animists.

This works the same for a setting. I had a city ruled by an expansionist and religious monarch exhibit Arab & Hindu style palaces for the wealthy, and Pueblo Indian & Mexican Missionary style dwellings for the rest of the population. The city represents the cultures in so far as they exhibit the traits associated with it and nothing more than that.

Triaxx
2008-02-26, 07:47 PM
That doesn't sound too bad. The Jamaican Necromancer is pretty high on the list of offensive stereotypes. Though I've seen nothing start a fight faster than an Irish Dwarf. (When in the same party as a normal Scottish one.)

VanBuren
2008-02-26, 07:51 PM
That doesn't sound too bad. The Jamaican Necromancer is pretty high on the list of offensive stereotypes. Though I've seen nothing start a fight faster than an Irish Dwarf. (When in the same party as a normal Scottish one.)

What about Irish and North Irish dwarves?

ColdBrew
2008-02-27, 10:46 AM
Do the irish dwarves set mule-bombs in front of taverns?

Draz74
2008-02-27, 10:58 AM
Another thing that I find to be a good (but imperfect) litmus test is this: Would my friend (of relevant ethnic/cultural background) be upset if I did this? Would it cause hurt feelings between us?

Bad litmus test if your friends are like mine. My Jewish friends are about the biggest fans of anti-Jew jokes in the world.

ColdBrew
2008-02-27, 11:08 AM
Bad litmus test if your friends are like mine. My Jewish friends are about the biggest fans of anti-Jew jokes in the world.
After some muslims made anti-Jew cartoons, the Jews held a contest to see who could make the best anti-Jew illustration. The Jews won.

ColdBrew
2008-02-27, 11:11 AM
Bad litmus test if your friends are like mine. My Jewish friends are about the biggest fans of anti-Jew jokes in the world.
After some muslims made anti-Jew cartoons, the Jews held a contest to see who could make the best anti-Jew illustration. The Jews won.

TheDarkOne
2008-02-27, 11:17 AM
Honestly, I don't think it's a problem to play a character exactly like every stereotype you can think of a certain race. The problem would be if you made the suggestion that all members of that race have exactly the same characteristics.

Dervag
2008-02-27, 11:26 AM
Better yet, mix his French and African accents together for a really weird accent!

In human history there is a time period where an educated African would have probably known French.You understate the case for your own idea. There were French colonies in Africa where all educated Africans spoke French, because the French ran all the schools. And where French is still one of the national languages.


I'd be a bit cautious about equating 'African' with 'ancestor worship'.Well, I seem to recall the word "shaman" being used somewhere in the character description. And it's definitely common to associate "shaman" with "ancestor worship."

Besides, it's only an example, and not an unjustified one. Lots of cultures on many continents have practiced ancestor worship in some form.

Totally Guy
2008-02-27, 12:24 PM
Another thing that I find to be a good (but imperfect) litmus test is this: Would my friend (of relevant ethnic/cultural background) be upset if I did this? Would it cause hurt feelings between us?

Let people outside the gaming group know my secret geeky hobby? Never. :smalltongue:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-27, 12:28 PM
Well, I seem to recall the word "shaman" being used somewhere in the character description. And it's definitely common to associate "shaman" with "ancestor worship."

Meh, but it's still an association too far, especially in combination with some of the other stuff, IMO. What worried me was that it was the Black and White minstrels who were reminiscient of this character, to be honest.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 12:43 PM
Just to go against the overwhelming tide of 'oh, it's fine to play a blatant stereotype black and white minstrels reminded you of it, then I'd be cautious)]', remember that's it's important to avoid getting desensitised to things like this - although you may not mean it, it's probably best to avoid it becoming an acceptable thing to portray someone as a stereotypical character, just since that sort of thing should be kept at arms' length from people.

Still, this may be because I have an axe to grind - so-called 'gypsies' get a fairly stereotypical presentation in DnD, and culture generally (my dad's Romani).

It's absolutely necessary for us to be desensitized to stuff like this. Necessary if we ever want to move past race, that is.

White, middle class kids who get all wound up by race end up being the sort of adults who pat a black person on the head for doing success and saying. "wow, you're black AND you got a job! congratulations!"

Racial sensitivity is racism.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-27, 01:20 PM
It's absolutely necessary for us to be desensitized to stuff like this. Necessary if we ever want to move past race, that is.

White, middle class kids who get all wound up by race end up being the sort of adults who pat a black person on the head for doing success and saying. "wow, you're black AND you got a job! congratulations!"

Racial sensitivity is racism.

That's quite clearly not what I meant. Becoming blase about racism, and seeing it as 'just another option', is what I meant.

Desensitisation, in all the meanings of the word that I've come across, means the constant repetition of a bad thing until we no longer see it as bad.

I'm skirting round the edge of the 'politics and other SRS BSNS' section of the rules here, and sorry for calling Godwin's Law so early, but there are examples of constant invocation of a stereotype in order to confirm that stereotype. I think that you can guess who I'm alluding to.

I'm not directing any of these accusations at anyone here; I'm merely saying that we should be careful when using stereotypes that we're not perpetuating them, even if not consciously so.

Jonesh
2008-02-27, 01:28 PM
It's absolutely necessary for us to be desensitized to stuff like this. Necessary if we ever want to move past race, that is.

White, middle class kids who get all wound up by race end up being the sort of adults who pat a black person on the head for doing success and saying. "wow, you're black AND you got a job! congratulations!"

Racial sensitivity is racism.

Yeah, I totally agree with you there.
Damn; even positive racism is just that, racism.
"Oh those blacks really have the rhytm in their blood Harriet!" etc.

ColdBrew
2008-02-27, 01:53 PM
"Oh those blacks really have the rhytm in their blood Harriet!" etc.
No no no, they have more "fast twitch muscle fiber".

Number 6
2008-02-28, 10:45 AM
I don't understand why people get offended over things. I don't think I've honestly ever been offended by anything. Of course, I'm part-everything-from-Europe, but still, I don't see why people get offended over things like that.

It's all politics and money. There are a lot of people who are making a lot of money off of fighting racism and sexism. They'll be out of a job when racism and sexism are finally eliminated. So, to keep themselves in the feeding trough, they keep redifining racism. Originally, a racists was someone who thinks fill-in-the-blank are inferior. Then it became a racists is someone who isn't doing enough to right the wrongs of the past. Now, a racist is someone who doesn't show enough sensitivity to fill-in-the-blank.

These politicians keep saying it often enough, and soon people start beleiving it.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-28, 01:34 PM
It's all politics and money. There are a lot of people who are making a lot of money off of fighting racism and sexism. They'll be out of a job when racism and sexism are finally eliminated. So, to keep themselves in the feeding trough, they keep redifining racism. Originally, a racists was someone who thinks fill-in-the-blank are inferior. Then it became a racists is someone who isn't doing enough to right the wrongs of the past. Now, a racist is someone who doesn't show enough sensitivity to fill-in-the-blank.

These politicians keep saying it often enough, and soon people start beleiving it.

Oh right, it's all a conspiracy - all of those brave people who work every day to stop stuff like the Stephen Lawrence murders, they're just in it for the money and power then, and they're redefining it to keep their piggy little snouts 'in the trough'. Right. :smallannoyed:

Number 6
2008-03-01, 06:19 PM
Oh right, it's all a conspiracy - all of those brave people who work every day to stop stuff like the Stephen Lawrence murders, they're just in it for the money and power then, and they're redefining it to keep their piggy little snouts 'in the trough'. Right. :smallannoyed:


No, it's not a conspiracy. It's human nature. When you have a choice of quitting and finding a new job, or going after people who use the term "black" instead of "African American", it's very tempting to to the latter.

And not everyone is in on it. Most people honestly believe that Black is racist because people like Jesse Jackson, Luis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, Gloria Stienem, Michelle Paglia say so. Read what a person says before you reply.

Riffington
2008-03-02, 01:35 AM
I'm skirting round the edge of the 'politics and other SRS BSNS' section of the rules here, and sorry for calling Godwin's Law so early, but there are examples of constant invocation of a stereotype in order to confirm that stereotype. I think that you can guess who I'm alluding to.


I suspect the territory between "I don't mind perpetuating the stereotype of pirates having Bristol accents" and "let's kill the..." is less of a slippery slope, and more of a gaping chasm.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-02, 01:43 AM
... for example, the chainmail bikini thing. Answer? Play a feminist female knight (the other side effect is destroying the 14-16 year old male stereotype...).

Thats not the answer. The answer is playing a male barbarian wearing a chainmail speedo. :smalltongue:

Raroy
2008-03-02, 01:58 AM
The Sexy female knight is more of a Cliche then a stereotype. If you do the exact opposite then you are still confirming that the Cliche/stereotype still exists. It is best to do it from an angle. Sure, the character can have aspects of the stereotype as well as other characteristics and that wouldn't be so offensive. It would be an opportunity to get a laugh at absurdity. The female knight could also be attractive, she just has no clue that she is.

Talic
2008-03-02, 02:51 AM
Two of my favorite characters in all of my games were stereotypes. One was a norse barbarian, complete with "Hans and Frans" accent.

The other, goblins, with decided mexican stereotypes. Oddly enough, they were both lawful good, and one was a paladin. Trying to make an empire for the good greenskins, free of oppression and slaughter based on their greenish nature.

That said, one of my least favorite was a bad stereotype of machiavellian aristocracy. Jean Claude something or other. Someone evidently didn't get enough aristocratic intrigue at their vampire larp, and tried to bring it to my game. Sigh.

Thoughtbot360
2008-03-02, 03:21 AM
I'd be a bit cautious about equating 'African' with 'ancestor worship'.

Well, it depends on the setting. Maybe Ancestor worship is all their is. (Heck, maybe Ghosts rule the world)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-02, 06:06 AM
I suspect the territory between "I don't mind perpetuating the stereotype of pirates having Bristol accents" and "let's kill the..." is less of a slippery slope, and more of a gaping chasm.

No, but the slippery slope between 'all people of ethnicity X speak this way' to 'all people of ethnicity X act this way' to 'all people of ethnicity X are this way' isn't too big.

Riffington
2008-03-02, 11:08 AM
No, but the slippery slope between 'all people of ethnicity X speak this way' to 'all people of ethnicity X act this way' to 'all people of ethnicity X are this way' isn't too big.

I hope you brought a Glaive, because you're reaching.

puppyavenger
2008-03-02, 11:41 AM
to the OP, useing an African acent is no more racist than a actor useing a british acent when they play a Brit.
Also, how has this gotten into a debate?:smallconfused:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-02, 12:08 PM
I hope you brought a Glaive, because you're reaching.

Lol, a half-formed pun, with no justification.

& Puppy - I don't know, but this is the internet, and so anything can flare up.

Hzurr
2008-03-02, 12:21 PM
You understate the case for your own idea. There were French colonies in Africa where all educated Africans spoke French, because the French ran all the schools. And where French is still one of the national languages.

Yeah, there are a lot of them. I've been speaking French for a few years now, and it's always really interesting to hear African French, because it's a very neat dialect. It's similar, in a way, to the difference between Spanish spoken in Spain, vs. Spanish spoken in Mexico/Central America.

The majority of French-speaking Africans I've run into have been from the Ivory Coast (cote d'ivoire), but French is (I believe) the most common language across Africa. Those silly 19th century imperialists!

Riffington
2008-03-02, 12:32 PM
Lol, a half-formed pun, with no justification.

Hey, you're the one who needs to give the justification, since you're making the positive claim (and burden of proof goes on positive claims). Has the popularity of the Simpsons (spawning "Apu" impersonations throughout the US) lead to increased discrimination against Indians? Got any kind of data, or were you just reaching?

I do, however, apologize for the nerdiness of the joke.

EvilElitest
2008-03-02, 12:32 PM
Just give him a heavy French accent instead. No one cares if you parody the French. Or, since you're in England, you can give him an American accent. I understand we're just as reviled everywhere else as they are here.

I"m reading some old 1897 English documents, and it is weird, everybody is saying how nice and polite hte Americans are. Makes you very sad


Anyways, if you show an accurate portray of the african culture he comes from, it is fine. Even if he is a bad person, he isn't a racist portrayal, i mean look at Amine in last king of Scotland
from
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Dode
2008-03-02, 01:34 PM
Besides, I'm Scottish and I don't have a problem with others playing their dwarves like that (in fact, my gamming group usally joke about 'The only good dwarf being a Scottish one')Our party dwarf goes for Scottish but somehow keeps drifting into a Hindi accent. But then, our party spends a good portion of gametime doing nothing but ripping on each other in character.

ColdBrew
2008-03-02, 01:59 PM
Two of my favorite characters in all of my games were stereotypes. One was a norse barbarian, complete with "Hans and Frans" accent.
I'll do you one better. My friend and I played norse barbarian brothers named Hans and Frans, who had an unhealthy obsession with cheese. To the point that we asked to be paid in it.

Zenos
2008-03-02, 02:11 PM
I'll do you one better. My friend and I played norse barbarian brothers named Hans and Frans, who had an unhealthy obsession with cheese. To the point that we asked to be paid in it.

Did they walk around in skis and/or travel a lot at sea?

Weiser_Cain
2008-03-02, 02:30 PM
Well no but I have avoided playing real dnd for fear rejection because of racism. I'm also offended by stuff in dnd I see as racists, but that's another topic.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-02, 02:41 PM
Hey, you're the one who needs to give the justification, since you're making the positive claim (and burden of proof goes on positive claims). Has the popularity of the Simpsons (spawning "Apu" impersonations throughout the US) lead to increased discrimination against Indians? Got any kind of data, or were you just reaching?

I do, however, apologize for the nerdiness of the joke.

OK, I'll use the piece of evidence that I used last time. Are you prepared to deny that, for example Rudyard Kipling's characterisation of non-Europeans as fundamentally 'different' in accent, mannerisms, and cultural mores, led to a more racist attitude by the Empire at the time?


And before you say that that's not a valid argument, it's a reductio ad absurdum argument.

kjones
2008-03-02, 05:05 PM
I think the important thing here is that, if this is meant to be a serious character, that you not let his "African-ness" be the defining factor of everything he does. I mean, if you were playing a female character, and you determined all your actions based on, "Well, as a woman, I would...", that would be kind of silly. Not necessarily offensive, just... bad role-playing.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-02, 06:38 PM
I think the important thing here is that, if this is meant to be a serious character, that you not let his "African-ness" be the defining factor of everything he does. I mean, if you were playing a female character, and you determined all your actions based on, "Well, as a woman, I would...", that would be kind of silly. Not necessarily offensive, just... bad role-playing.

Listen to this man. He speaks good sense.

Riffington
2008-03-02, 09:27 PM
OK, I'll use the piece of evidence that I used last time. Are you prepared to deny that, for example Rudyard Kipling's characterisation of non-Europeans as fundamentally 'different' in accent, mannerisms, and cultural mores, led to a more racist attitude by the Empire at the time?


And before you say that that's not a valid argument, it's a reductio ad absurdum argument.

To the contrary: I'd claim that Rudyard Kipling's intelligent and insightful characterizations of non-European cultures, while occasionally painful by modern standards, led to a more benevolent attitude by the Empire at the time. He should be held up as a great artist, great author, and great student of human nature.

kjones
2008-03-02, 09:40 PM
To the contrary: I'd claim that Rudyard Kipling's intelligent and insightful characterizations of non-European cultures, while occasionally painful by modern standards, led to a more benevolent attitude by the Empire at the time. He should be held up as a great artist, great author, and great student of human nature.

Kipling is kind of a controversial figure in this regard - does "White Man's Burden" promote imperialism, or satirize it? - but even so, we're not talking about spreading enlightened characterizations through brilliant literature. We're talking about playing a game without pissing off our friends.

I don't mean to belittle your point, I'm just trying to put this in perspective.

Riffington
2008-03-02, 09:54 PM
It is not my claim that you should be Kipling. I was using him to reply to a minor side-point, not to the great major point that is "things that are kinda cool can be taken as kinda cool, and the heck what someone not even in your game might plausibly think."

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 10:29 PM
Its just an accent; I'd be amused. And really, what matters is whether you and your friends are comfortable with it; I've seen many, many horribly racist jokes told in the presence of (and often by) black people; it really just depends on the individual.

Honestly, an African cleric is no more offensive than a Scottish dwarf or a Bristol pirate.