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Frosty
2008-02-25, 02:22 PM
One of my players made a comment about Skirmish being able to qualify for the Hellbreaker PrC, and I had a thought that developed into an idea. Normally a Scout is pretty boring. You move and perform Greater Manyshot. Repeat ad infinitum. But with Hellbreaker levels, you now get to steal and/or neutralize spell-like abilities from range. This is *huge* Suddenly the devils you fight can't teleport away anymore. Or the Power-Word Stuns don't get used, or that Balor's Meteor Storm is now gone.

Every single time you manage to skirmish, you can shut down a SLA. Since you'll probably shoot off 3 arrows at once, you can totally bone the offenses and defenses of enemies that rely on them. Anyone else think this is a great idea in a devil-heavy campaign?

Kizara
2008-02-25, 02:32 PM
Where is that PrC found?

Keld Denar
2008-02-25, 02:34 PM
Yeah, its potent, but not game breaking. Most high level outsiders are competant in straight up melee, so stripping off their SLAs don't keep them from Power Attacking you and your friends back to the 9 hells. Together with a competant crew, this character would fulfill an almost wizard-like debuff/disable role in a devil centric campaign. Just make sure you get a holy or sacred bow and a quiver full of silvered arrows!

Burley
2008-02-25, 02:34 PM
Two things: That is AWESOME!
And, as far as I know, that'd work. Skirmish can be used as sneak attack for prestige classes, in the exact same way sudden strike can.

Frosty
2008-02-25, 02:42 PM
Where is that PrC found?

Fiendish Codex 2. Great PRC. Not bad for Rogues or Spellthiefs, but Scouts can do it from *range* and do it consistently, since all you need to do is MOVE!!

fendrin
2008-02-25, 03:34 PM
Fiendish Codex 2. Great PRC. Not bad for Rogues or Spellthiefs, but Scouts can do it from *range* and do it consistently, since all you need to do is MOVE!!

I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that the range restriction on Sneak Attack also applies to Skirmish. Still easier to trigger, though.

Frosty
2008-02-25, 03:36 PM
a relative redundant point since Greater Manyshot only works within 30 ft anyways.

RTGoodman
2008-02-25, 03:45 PM
Another problem, looking at how it's written, is that you just get Sneak Attack, even if you qualified with Skirmish. So now you have to meet two sets of prerequisites to do your (mediocre) extra damage.

Also, I know that you can use any of the Precision Damage abilities to qualify for PrCs and feats that require one of the others, but what about for class abilities that require a specific one? Because Hellbreaker's Steal SLA ability (and the other abilities like it) says you have to use Sneak Attack specifically.

It wouldn't be gamebreaking to just change it all to Skirmish, but it could be a problem with some DMs.

fendrin
2008-02-25, 03:50 PM
a relative redundant point since Greater Manyshot only works within 30 ft anyways.

Good point. :smallredface:

Frosty
2008-02-25, 04:07 PM
Another problem, looking at how it's written, is that you just get Sneak Attack, even if you qualified with Skirmish. So now you have to meet two sets of prerequisites to do your (mediocre) extra damage.

Also, I know that you can use any of the Precision Damage abilities to qualify for PrCs and feats that require one of the others, but what about for class abilities that require a specific one? Because Hellbreaker's Steal SLA ability (and the other abilities like it) says you have to use Sneak Attack specifically.

It wouldn't be gamebreaking to just change it all to Skirmish, but it could be a problem with some DMs.

I am the DM in this case. It would also make absolutely no sense for a prc to advance *only* SA when you can use sudden attack and skirmish to qualify. Hence, I rule that using common sense, Sudden Attack and Skirmish also can be used.

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 04:18 PM
Hellbreaker is good, but not really that great. A Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) is just as effective, if not more so.

Keep in mind that a Hellbreaker's ability to steal or negate spell-like abilities and eventually supernatural abilities is limited. "The spell-like ability can originate from the target's class, race, template, or any other source, and can be any spell level up to a maximum of 1/2 your class level." So a Scout 5/Hellbreaker 10 can only negate spell-like and supernatural abilities that go up to 5th level.

So some of your enemies' most potent abilities will simply be immune to you attempts to shut them down, especially when you're at low-mid levels.

Frosty
2008-02-25, 04:50 PM
If need be, after some play-testing and in-game results, I may tweak the class to be able to negate spell level = your class level. It all depends. Spellthief is decent sure. but you can't skirmish with it nless I home brew a variant.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-25, 04:59 PM
Two things: That is AWESOME!
And, as far as I know, that'd work. Skirmish can be used as sneak attack for prestige classes, in the exact same way sudden strike can.

No, not according to Complete Adventurer. Only Sudden Strike can. Where are you reading that?
Sneak=Sudden
Skirmish no equal them for qualifying.

Frosty
2008-02-25, 05:38 PM
That is correct. however, The Hellbreaker PRC itself specifically lists Skirmish as being approved to qualify for the PRC.

Person_Man
2008-02-25, 05:52 PM
No, not according to Complete Adventurer. Only Sudden Strike can. Where are you reading that?
Sneak=Sudden
Skirmish no equal them for qualifying.

This particular PrC explicitly lists its requirements as:

Alignment: Any Chaotic
Skills: Bluff 8 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks, Sense Motive 8 ranks.
Languages: Infernal.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Undo Resistance.
Special: Sneak Attack 2d6, Skirmish 2d6, or Sudden Strike 2d6.

Those are pretty steep requirements, especially since Improved Feint is a retardly poor feat. But at least they allow Scouts to qualify.