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Egill
2008-02-26, 09:36 PM
What do you guys think a decent build for a control-oriented gish would be using only d20 SRD material (UA variants included)?

For simplicity's sake, I was considering just using the battle sorcerer variant, but I am sure something better could be cooked up.

Anyone care to help me tackle this problem?

Thanks!

TheEscapist
2008-02-26, 09:42 PM
I think the battle sorceror variant is perfect for a gish, personally, but I also recommend psychic warrior if you're using psionics in your campaign. I was never really clear on whether githyanki prefer arcane magic or psionics.

Don't foget to take Weapon Focus: Greatsword so you can get your githyanki-brand special silver sword when you finally impress the elder githyanki!

Draz74
2008-02-26, 09:47 PM
Yeah, if "psionic" counts as "Gish," then Psychic Warrior or Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior/Slayer is your best option for sure.

If you need arcane specifically, battle sorcerer is OK, but I prefer a little more flexibility (i.e. more spells known). Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard 4, or Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Sorcerer 2. None of these options (including battle sorcerer) is great, but ... well, Core just wasn't made for Gishes.

(Of course, if divine can count as Gish, even the Psychic Warrior can't beat CoDzilla as a Gish option.)

Nebo_
2008-02-26, 09:48 PM
I think the battle sorceror variant is perfect for a gish,

The battle sorcerer is a pretty poor gish. In Core only, it isn't quite as bad, but still not great. I think that the best Gish-like build in the SRD is Psychic warrior 10/Slayer 10

Reel On, Love
2008-02-26, 09:51 PM
In core, your options are pretty freakin' limited. You control with spells (since Improved Trip is about it for melee types); being a gish reduces your spellcasting.

Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Wiz or Archmage 2 is your only real bet if you want both BAB +16 and 9th level spells at 20th. You wind up spending quite some time as both a mediocre meleer and a mediocre caster, with low HP for a front-liner. You also spend a round or two buffing each fight. Unlike a cleric, you have to deal with Spell Failure, too.

Really, your best bet for a gish is to reflavor a Cleric as an arcane warrior-mage. You're quite limited in "control" spells that way, though.

Egill
2008-02-26, 10:46 PM
Unfortunately, no psionics.

Thanks for the replies, I will have to look into some of these builds.

Realistically, passing level 10 is probably not going to happen in the upcoming campaign.

Anyway, thanks again.

Squash Monster
2008-02-26, 11:03 PM
Reel On, Love's build is the best bet you're going to get. It's still pretty week though. Wizards gave us Abjurant Champion for a reason.

Though, since you're playing at lower levels, you're going to want to look at something much different. Here are some options, in order of how close they are to what you want (gish controller):

Straight Druid: get a stick, cast Shillelagh. If your DM lets you get a wooden Ranseur and still cast Shillelagh on that, go for improved trip. Either way, you've got Entangle and a big thwacking stick. Once you get wildshape, drop the stick, turn into some sort of big ape, and pick the stick back up. Now you've got good stats and a big thwacking stick. Toss in Natural Spell and you're happy.

Straight Cleric: Divine Power and Righteous Might. Ranseur or Spiked Chain, improved trip, combat reflexes.

Ranger: you get Entangle at 4th level. It's something vaguely like useful.

Bard/Barbarian: you don't get so much control, but you get Inspire Courage and rage, which you can indeed use at the same time.

Solo
2008-02-26, 11:09 PM
Paladin2/bardx or sorcererx is a gish.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-27, 02:41 PM
Don't forget gestalt as an option.

Rowanomicon
2008-02-27, 08:44 PM
I have often used straight Clerics as gishes.
They work great. (And you don't even need to use the cheese.)

Druid also do the trick if you want a more wilderness thing going on.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-27, 08:52 PM
Fighter2/Wiz5/EK10/AM3

Feats to pick up:

EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes.

Spells to cast:

Enlarge Person, Permanency (self).

In short, you permanency Enlarge Person on yourself, then you've got a 20' reach. Anyone within 20' of you does anything to provoke, you trip 'em and smack 'em. Tack on battlefield control spells like Stinking Cloud or Web and you've got the battlefield handled.

Eldritch
2008-04-26, 11:45 AM
It depends on what gish you want to make.For melee oriented gish,there is only one choice and it is extremely powerful.No fighter levels or anything.
The gish build I propose is:Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight2/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight5.
Taking the militia feat enables you to take the eldritch knight prestige class and after that you go on dragonslayer to become proficient with armor and shields,after that you take spellsword and continue to abjurant champion to gain some wondrous abilities.Prefered weapon for this build is 2handed.With this build at 20th level you have +17 BAB and 19 Caster Level

Tengu
2008-04-26, 12:09 PM
Core only. It's in the initial post, even in the title. Also...

(possible) THREAD NECROMANCY
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/nes275/studentproj/fall05/coj3/necromancy.jpg

Animefunkmaster
2008-04-26, 12:39 PM
Fighter2/Wiz5/EK10/AM3

Feats to pick up:

EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes.

Spells to cast:

Enlarge Person, Permanency (self).

In short, you permanency Enlarge Person on yourself, then you've got a 20' reach. Anyone within 20' of you does anything to provoke, you trip 'em and smack 'em. Tack on battlefield control spells like Stinking Cloud or Web and you've got the battlefield handled.

I am going to +1 this for the srd/none psionic gish build (With gish in my head generally meaning Arcane Warrior with 16 bab at level 20, if you simply mean a warrior/caster then go druid or cleric... blackguard or even bard). Your control should be a mix of AoO and screw spells, imo.

Wizard route (more casting based control)

Fighter1/Wizard6*/Eldritch knight 10/Elf (or human)Paragon3
*Variant: Gain fighter feat instead of scribe scroll and metamagic

BAB 16
Has little to no class abilities
Drops 3 levels of casting only (9th level spells w00t)
Mithril becomes your friend.

The sorcerer route:
fighter1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Eldritch Knight 10/+ Spell Casting PrC 5*
*Thaumaturgist is the easiest to get into, otherwise archmage or loremaster. You could just end with more battle sorcerer (if you do, you might want to take the animal companion/familiar variant).
Note: Since you don't have acess to PrCs that grant 1 level of casting and +1 bab I would not try Paladin levels, they are too costly.

BAB 16 (or 17)
Drops 2 levels of casting (9th level spells, most important thing here, granted you only know 1... which just might be shapechange)
Can cast in mithril breastplate.

Combos: EWP Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip + Enlarge Person + Cats Grace + Caltrops + Nets + Tanglefoot bags + Screw Spells (Grease, Glitter Dust, Web, Solid Fog, Slow, Walss, Ect)

That should do it for control.

Iku Rex
2008-04-26, 12:49 PM
I imagine the OP is long gone, but maybe someone else is interested.

Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight 4
Transmuter, banned Evocation and Illusion

(No illusion means no invisibility and mirror image, but I really like the enchantment spell heroism.)

Variants:
Enhance Attribute Transmuter variant (no familiar, +2 ability 1/day)
Wizard variant (no wizard feats, gain fighter feats)

32 point buy
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

+2 Int levels
+2 Con, -2 Cha dwarf


1 Fighter 1 Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
Use a guisarme.
2 Wizard 1 Improved Trip
Enlarge Person now gives you 20' reach and with Improved Trip you'll have +12 on trip checks. AoO-trip-hit, then AoO again as they stand up. Use Enhance attribute on Str or Dex depending on how many AoOs you hope to get.
3 Wizard 2 EWP: Spiked Chain
Disarming an opponent as he stands up after getting tripped is a nasty trick. You don't have Improved Disarm yet, but unless he can reach you there's no AoO and with a Large (+4), 2-handed (+4) spiked chain (+2) you should have a good chance at disarming most Medium characters.
4 Wizard 3
5 Wizard 4
6 Wizard 5 Power Attack, Cleave
7 EK1 Improved Disarm
8 EK2
9 EK3 [Feat]
10 Ek4


Spells: Spells are important. Don't try to be both a fighter and a blaster. Use your wizard spells to become a better melee fighter. Try to cast buffs before combat begins. You should usually only spend one round buffing once the battle has started. Exception: Haste, since it helps the entire party.

Get scrolls of spells that can be useful but you don't need every day, like See Invisible and Protection From Energy. If you really want some ranged blasting ability, get a wand.

Some spell suggestions:
Lv 1: Ray of Enfeeblement (soften up for trip), Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike (unarmed disarm -> steal weapon)
Lv 2: Alter self (troglodyte, +6 natural armor), False Life, ability buffs
Lv 3: Blink, Heroism, Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, Fly
lv 4: Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Polymorph (!!)
Polymorph into a treant, troll or annis hag. Use enlarge first and your weapon should still be Large.