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TheEscapist
2008-02-26, 10:02 PM
I thought of a good idea for an NPC villain when I realized most PCs don't bother examining the goods when they buy potions from a vendor. When a PC buys a healing potion, he trusts it's a healing potion, but if a vendor were to label a bottle of ingested poison as a healing potion, would any of the PCs notice until a few seconds after chugging it? An assassin masquerading as your friendly neighborhood alchemist could make a pretty cool and unexpected bad guy in almost any campaign.

Of course, now DMs everywhere will curse my name as all of their PCs bog their games down to make scores of Knowledge: Arcana checks and castings of detect poison on every single potion they find in a shop. :smallsmile:

SamTheCleric
2008-02-26, 10:06 PM
It may only work once... and you may say that someone who has 10+ ranks in spellcraft can make a roll to notice the difference...

I would even go so far as to roll the initial saving throw for them and just tell the side effects at the most opportune time.... like... right before a fight.

:)

Collin152
2008-02-26, 10:09 PM
This is why I buy potion-tiles...
What will they do, make asbestos tiles?

NecroRebel
2008-02-26, 10:25 PM
Would be neat, but also not really possible as far as potions go. For one, as Collin152 implied, the "potion" mechanic is used for literally any one-shot magic item with an effect under level 3; it can be used equally for a bottle filled with some alchemical nonsense, a small bundle of leaves that is set alight then put out on the recipient's hand, specially-designed cards that are waved around, ceramic tiles that are shattered to release their effects, etc. For another, selling poisons like that is going to be difficult to target. You have to have a poison version of every single potion you have for sale in order to be sure you poisoned the one your target wants to buy, you have to make your target want to buy a potion, and you have to ensure that no other hapless adventurer doesn't decide to buy out your entire inventory one day. Hardly cost-effective, and in truth not practically viable even if you have all the money in the world.

One thing that I have heard of a malicious DM doing at one point, though, was similar. A powerful BBEG made ran the local magic shop. Every magic item that he made (and he made all the magic items that were sold in this particular magic shop) was ingrained with an extra latent effect: if a particular series of nonsense words was spoken within earshot of the item, it would teleport itself back to the shop. Mind you, it did not teleport anyone who might be wearing or wielding them with it. And this BBEG happened to have been the source of 90% of the party's magic items when they confronted him, and was aware of this fact. As one might imagine, that group was not pleased with the near-wipe that followed (IIRC the party Wizard and Cleric managed to escape with the corpses).

Squash Monster
2008-02-26, 10:50 PM
I think selling potions full of colored water seems more likely than selling potions full of poison. Water costs less than poison, so if your goal is to make money unscrupulously, it's a far better choice than poison.

clockwork warrior
2008-02-26, 10:54 PM
heck, selling them water in its self can screw them over

player 1: player 2 only has 1 round left, im going to spend my turn giving him the healing potion we bought

player 2: cool, i was hoping someone would do something, i dont want to die, how much hp do i gain back?

dm: none, it doesnt do jack crap for you, but your final thoughts before passing into the other world is " tastes like strawberries"

Collin152
2008-02-26, 10:56 PM
What about drugged water? They don't get healed, but they want more.

Chronos
2008-02-26, 11:25 PM
Don't do it. Most players have an implicit understanding that the shopkeeper/adventurer relationship is sacred: Even the most bloodthirsty of PCs will never attack the shopkeeper. Absurd though this notion may be, it's essential for the integrity of any game which has merchants who sell magic items. If you break this relationship by selling them poison potions, then there's nothing to stop them from just breaking and entering at the magic shop, or killing the shopkeeper to take all of his cool toys.

Randel
2008-02-27, 01:00 AM
One idea: One out of ten goblins keep with them a small bottle labeled 'Heeling poshun' which contains either acid, poison, or goblin urine. They do this as an attempt at revenge on whoever kills them or steals their stuff... or they leave them on the bodies of people they kill so that later adventurers get a nasty suprise if they don't check the things they loot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-27, 01:14 AM
One idea: One out of ten goblins keep with them a small bottle labeled 'Heeling poshun' which contains either acid, poison, or goblin urine. They do this as an attempt at revenge on whoever kills them or steals their stuff... or they leave them on the bodies of people they kill so that later adventurers get a nasty surprise if they don't check the things they loot.That is fair. However, having the PCs get poisoned by stuff they buy isn't, for the same reason rogues with items of Silence and G. Invisibility don't go around stealing their stuff. Yes, it may be smart on the part of the NPC and realistic, but it makes the game unfun. The game is supposed to be fun, don't do something that would change that.

mabriss lethe
2008-02-27, 01:43 AM
1. the goblin example above is amazing.

2. A combination of colored water(or poison) and the Magic Aura spell is amazing.

There are ways to accomplish the same sort of doublecross without invovling a shopkeeper directly.

how do you deliver the placebo? The shop keeper isn't a great idea. It could work, but would have to be played out very carefully.

If you're dead set on the potion vendor scenario, you'd want to handle it differently. Say the PCs come to a town. An assassin, hired to do in one or more members of the party, has subdued/killed the real owner of the shop and has taken over. Make the shop owner someone the PCs know and have dealt with on numerous occasions. If asked, he'll say that he's a distant relation to the owner, come down to learn the family trade. The owner is, of course, indisposed when the PCs arrive. The assassin makes up a lie, he's either abed with some sickness or is out of town seeking some rare ingredient, leaving care of the shop in the assassin's hands. The lies aren't perfect though. A few skill checks will turn up some appropriate evidence to the contrary.

In any event, the killer sells them some bogus potions of one sort or another. Here's how he does it: he tells the PCs that the owner described the party to him as one of his best customers and he's just gotten a fresh batch of whatever potion the PCs ask for. They haven't been shelved yet, so he'll duck back into the private area of the shop and prepare the poison/whatever on the spot, in the appropriately labelled container.

Here's how I'd do it though.
The BBEG hires a rogue to "steal" from the party. He's not amazingly competent, so the party has a good chance to catch him in the act. It doesn't matter though, because he managed to slip a mickey into one or more of the PCs equipment. He escapes with a minor, but useful trinket or two, causing the the PCs to go after him immediately. They'll never think to check their packs for counterfeit items.

Demented
2008-02-27, 01:45 AM
If the PCs have a price on their heads, they're in evil lands, and are buying from an evil shopkeeper, they should probably expect poison to be in their potions.

Of course, the notion of evil shopkeepers alone might be woefully unforeseen.

:nale: "The part where he charged you for four potions when you bought three should have been a fairly obvious indicator."

:elan: "But he said it was an honest mistake!"

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-27, 09:00 AM
My group usually buys their healing potion direct from the temple that makes them. Anyone wanting to poison them this way would have to disguise themselves as a Good priest, well enough to fool everyone else in the temple and at just the right time to sell to the PCs (either that or as a long term mole).
Or maybe break in a swap/taint the temple stores. That would have to be done at just the right time too.

Hazkali
2008-02-27, 09:21 AM
One of my dungeons had a room in which the door would only open when all of the four potions on a pedestal had been drunk. One of the potions was a potion of Cure X Wounds, whereas the other three were Inflict X Wounds. That was good for a laugh...especially when that trap was repeated at several points during that dungeon.

I agree with the other posters that have said that this would violate the implicit PC-Shopkeeper-DM agreement, if they had just gone into the town and said "We stock up on Cure Light Wounds potions". If, however, the shop is built up as part of the plot, with the shopkeeper being someone other than a nameless NPC, then I think it could be an interesting twist, so long as nobody actually dies because of it (DM fiat might come in useful here) and the DM debriefs the players that it won't be repeated.

Keld Denar
2008-02-27, 09:27 AM
:nale: Only slightly less well known is "Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

Rutee
2008-02-27, 09:28 AM
Don't do it. Most players have an implicit understanding that the shopkeeper/adventurer relationship is sacred: Even the most bloodthirsty of PCs will never attack the shopkeeper. Absurd though this notion may be, it's essential for the integrity of any game which has merchants who sell magic items. If you break this relationship by selling them poison potions, then there's nothing to stop them from just breaking and entering at the magic shop, or killing the shopkeeper to take all of his cool toys.

Also, to note, if you pull this trick on them, the PCs will begin bogging games down with Identify, Knowledge Arcana, and other nonsense every time they shop. So yes, OOC social contracts and all.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-27, 09:32 AM
Be really, really careful about stuff like this, because you might just wind up drawing attention to the holes in the game.

Again I come back to the Buffy analogy. Tell me that Buffy lives in a nice house, even though her mother is a single parent and it gets trashed every week, and I can accept it. Tell me that Buffy can no longer *afford* her nice house, and I ask (a) how she could afford it in the first place and (b) why she doesn't do any of the hundred and one things that could solve her money worries in an instant.

Start selling me poison potions, and you start drawing attention to the fact that the D&D economy just plain doesn't work. I'll probably start buying iron pots and selling them for the iron.

Hazkali
2008-02-27, 10:14 AM
Be really, really careful about stuff like this, because you might just wind up drawing attention to the holes in the game.

[Snip]

Start selling me poison potions, and you start drawing attention to the fact that the D&D economy just plain doesn't work. I'll probably start buying iron pots and selling them for the iron.

But unless a player has an axe to grind, this particular scenario doesn't draw attention to the rules governing the economy, only the hole that PCs regularly buy life-or-death pieces of equipment from batty old men with impressive facial hair1. In this case, I think if it is done well then it could certainly be pulled off without derailing all future sessions, especially when you have rules for appraising items.

1Yes, I know Wizards don't usually make Cure potions, but the point still holds.

Prometheus
2008-02-27, 02:14 PM
I like to throw in a couple of merchants who offers potions at discount prices or claiming mysterious magical effects. Sometimes they are legit, sometimes they aren't. That way, the players know they are taking a gamble.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-27, 02:15 PM
We had the big dumb fighter of the group fail a sense motive check against a halfling merchant that wanted to sell him an Ioun stone cheap. It was a grey ioun stone with a continual flame cast on it. 1500gp down the tubes.

Rutee
2008-02-27, 02:21 PM
Hm, I'm going to correct myself slightly; You can pull this stunt, and not bog the game down afterwards.. Just OOCly say "Okay seriously guys, not pulling that stunt again. Promise." and, since ICly, they'd examine stuff after getting smacked by these merchants.. just point out that it's being done ICly, don't require rolls.

valadil
2008-02-27, 02:26 PM
Once you break the players' trust with a shopkeep it will be difficult to regain it any time gold is spent. It's not a big deal if they spellcraft every potion they buy, but what about every other piece of loot that could be a ripoff? What about items they sell? Does the group have someone to cast identify or are they relying on shopkeepers to ID or appraise their loot? What if the appraiser lies? What if the party wizard lies? He could make a nice cut by telling the group that 10k gold sword is only 5k and then offering to sell it. Basically once you go down this path the game will focus more on economy and trust. It tends to get a little tedious. And to top it off your players may be paranoid in future games too.

Overlord
2008-02-28, 01:45 AM
This is why I buy potion-tiles...
What will they do, make asbestos tiles?

They could make hollow tiles filled with alchemist's fire: when you snap the tile, you expose the liquid to air, and light yourself on fire. That could be very mean to a 1st or 2nd level Wizard.

Idea Man
2008-02-28, 01:55 AM
This is why adventurers go to extraordinary lengths to identify magic items beyond a shadow of a doubt. Cursed items at best are annoying, and at wort can kill. During one of the most memorable near-TPKs I've had the pleasure of orchestrating, on of the players went to use his dust of invisibility to sneak around a wall of fire and attack the BBEG. One application of dust of sneezing and choking later, he was unconscious, and burning to a crisp within the reach of a wall of fire's hot side. An ill-fated campaign, but probably the most fun and memorable I've run to date. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 02:12 AM
Dust of S&C is just asking for a TPK. Seriously, if you use it during combat, you're looking at 12 rounds of no actions while the enemy whales on the party. And there's no save and only a 1% chance of identifying it. :smallmad: Who thought that was a good idea?

Demented
2008-02-28, 04:45 AM
It's supposed to be Dust of Appearance, not Dust of Invisibility.
Thus, if you try to use it, chances are you're going to catch the invisible foe in it too.
Unless, of course, the chances are that you have really bad aim.

Dervag
2008-02-28, 08:21 AM
I think selling potions full of colored water seems more likely than selling potions full of poison. Water costs less than poison, so if your goal is to make money unscrupulously, it's a far better choice than poison.On the other hand, if you're selling water you face a pretty substantial risk. Even if PCs don't bother to check your potions, somebody will. And if they find out that your potions are nonmagical liquid, word will get out.