Massive Damage on a Charge

[Brauron]

A friend of mine who knows the d20 system inside and out has been helping me build a 10th level fighter for a mutual friend's game, built around hurling himself bodily into the fray and smacking with a maul.

I've got Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, and then the whole Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization feat tree with my maul (taking Greater Weapon Specialization at 12th), but the part he was really helping me with was charging and getting huge amounts of damage.

So I now have Power Attack, Improved Bull-Rush, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack.

If I'm following correctly, I do Heedless Charge using my Shock Trooper feat to knock 10 off my AC, and since I'm using the Maul two-handed I add 20 to my damage. If I do a 10-foot horizontal leap into combat (easy enough as I have max ranks in Jump) I instead add 30 to my damage.

Now, my friend then suggested at a later level I take a feat called Battle Jump -- I'm not sure what book it's in, but he described it as increasing my Power Attack damage if I leap down at least 5 feet at a foe. He wasn't sure if stacking that on top of Power Attacking and Leap Attacking would result in quadruple damage or not, as, to quote him, "Now we're getting into parentheticals."

Any idea how this would work?

[its_all_ogre]

leap attack with two-hander = -1 to hit gives +4 to damage.
leap attack gives +100% damage bonus from power attack in errata.
do not know the other feat mentioned.

[Hyfigh]

Battle Jump is from Unapproachable East. The feat doesn't affect your Power Attack directly, which is why it stacks. Instead, it doubles the damage you deal if you fall from 5feet above your opponent. This means all damage; strength, weapon enhancement, power attack damage, weapon damage, ect.

Also note that the reading of Leap Attack has had an Errata that you may DL from the wizards website (errata for Complete Adventurer). It reads:


Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should
read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with
your jump, and you end your jump in a square from
which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the
normal bonus damage from your use of the Power
Attack feat.

This means when you drop 10 from AC with Shock Trooper your Power Attack will add 40 damage, instead of the normal 20. Battle Jump to double all damage dealt and your power attack is now technically +80 damage.

For a little added overkill, grab a single level dip into Barbarian and take the Alternate Class Feature 'Lion Totem' from Complete Champion. What happens is you lose your fast movement from the Barbarian but gain Pounce, allowing you to full attack after a charge, rather than only a single attack.

[Bayar]

Leap attack and shock trooper are sweet together.

But dunno about weapon focus/specialisation...for a 2H weapon, that is insignificant bonus.

I would go with:
Leap attack + Shock trooper
Hurling charge, Greater/Powerful Charge , Reckless Charge (miniatures handbook)
Furious Charge (Players guide to faerun)
and battle jump from unapproachable east (although this last one I only heard of...dont have this book...).

There are also some other cool feats that sicken your enemy...

But this feat selection has the downside of dropping your AC to the nether regions...

I would also take a level in barbarian for the rage and speed boosts...preferably starting the character as a barbarian.

[Mr. Friendly]

Yeah that's all pretty much right. The Battle Jump feat is a regional feat for Forgotten Realms. From the Taer region; I don't know if that matters or not, but there you go. What the feat does is it lets you do double damage (or make a trip attack) against a foe you attack from above. The concept being you, up on a ledge, jumping down on someone. In order to get enough altitude to pull it off you will need to get as many Jump increasing items as possible, possibly even a feat or two.

At any rate, the double damage effect is, essentially turning the attack into a critical hit. This means you can be talking about exponential damage.

So, we could be talking about {W}+2(s)+2(gws)+10(pa)+10(la)+10(2hw) = ({W}+34+Str)*2

Now if you throw in things like frenzied berzerker and some more cheese, I hear tell of things on the order of a 5:1 power attack ratio.

[Yeril]

Not much help, but if you want to go for the exotic huge bashy hammer, try looking for a Greathammer.

Im not 100% sure but I think its somthing brutal like 2d6 with a 19-20/x4 critical. :smalleek:

[Miraqariftsky]

So... y'all deal a huge amout of damage to just one foe and lose 10-some AC in the process?

Methinks yer not getting a good deal there... What if there's lots of foes around that swarm upon ye as ye finish yer charge? What if the nearest melee allies are too far away and so is the healer ad the fire support is in too close to be of aid?

I hope for your sake that my reasoning is flawed... that, and that ye've got Cleave. It always pays for any heavy melee mashing character to spread the damage out instead of just slamming down on one opponent at a time...

[Person_Man]

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization are all considered weak feats.

With the exception of Spring Attack, all of them provide minor static bonuses. You'd be better off with feats that provide scaled bonuses, extra attacks, or special abilities you can't easily buy with magic items.

Spring Attack limits you to a single attack, and can't be used with a Charge attack. So while its appealing on its surface, it severely limits your attacks.

There are dozens of ways to improve your charge damage, and there are a lot of great feat combos out there for Fighters. What books do you have available, and what do you want to do?

[its_all_ogre]

cleave is a must! however if you're surrounded like that you won't take the max with this tactic.
if surrounded by invisible enemies and are not aware, well then it gets interesting....!

[Hyfigh]

So... y'all deal a huge amout of damage to just one foe and lose 10-some AC in the process?

Methinks yer not getting a good deal there... What if there's lots of foes around that swarm upon ye as ye finish yer charge? What if the nearest melee allies are too far away and so is the healer ad the fire support is in too close to be of aid?

I hope for your sake that my reasoning is flawed... that, and that ye've got Cleave. It always pays for any heavy melee mashing character to spread the damage out instead of just slamming down on one opponent at a time...

I would ask why anyone would position himself in a place they could expect a beatdown? You do have to be tactful when using these abilities, but that goes the same for any build you make. Thats like asking a lockdown build to attack only the weakest foe.

Adding that dip into Barbarian and gaining pounce sure does make this quite potent even against hordes, though...

[ColdBrew]

One of the easiest ways to essentially "spring charge" is to learn the Quicksilver Motion maneuver from Tome of Battle, which gives you a move as as a swift action. You could learn it from a feat, or get it in a magic item, but those are both 1/encounter. If you take a single dip into Warblade, you can pick up a few more maneuvers at the same time, as well as getting the use of any given maneuver every other round. I would also recommend Sudden Leap, which gives you a jump as a swift action.

edit: You might also look into having a spellcaster benign transposition you with a disposable ally, or simply another tank.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So... y'all deal a huge amout of damage to just one foe and lose 10-some AC in the process?

Methinks yer not getting a good deal there... What if there's lots of foes around that swarm upon ye as ye finish yer charge? What if the nearest melee allies are too far away and so is the healer ad the fire support is in too close to be of aid?

I hope for your sake that my reasoning is flawed... that, and that ye've got Cleave. It always pays for any heavy melee mashing character to spread the damage out instead of just slamming down on one opponent at a time...

That's why you grab Karmic Strike. Basically, every time an opponent hits you, he provokes an AoO. And since it isn't your turn yet, all your insane quad-bab-to-damage Power Attack bonuses apply. You hit me for ten damage. Fine. I hit you for a couple hundred. I think I come out ahead on this deal.

It gets even more rediculous with a spiked chain and various methods of increasing your size and reach. 30' reach + Great Cleave + hundreds of damage a hit = a huge arse swath of death and destruction cut through an army

[its_all_ogre]

and there are ways around that and ways around them and ways around them and even more ways around them.
so? :smallamused:

[Hal]

Um, pardon my ignorance, but can you jump as your move action on a charge? It just seems particularly risky, since the further you have to go, the higher the jump DC, especially if you need to come down on him from 5 feet in the air.

'Cause, it'd kinda suck to land 10 feet away from your target, down 10 AC.

[Iku Rex]

And since it isn't your turn yet, all your insane quad-bab-to-damage Power Attack bonuses apply. You hit me for ten damage. Fine. I hit you for a couple hundred. I think I come out ahead on this deal. That's not how it works. An AoO is not a charge.

[its_all_ogre]

point.
but you'd still benefit from full chance to hit and power attack, so -10 +20 in this example.

[Frosty]

That's not how it works. An AoO is not a charge.

True, but the wording of it makes it so the act of charging basically super-charges your Power Attack. Even though your turn is over, your Power Attack is still super-charged. It's the exact same reason why your iterative attacks while Pouncing still get the insane damage bonuses. The charge does not directly give you extra damage. It's Power attack. For example, do note that you no longer gain the +2 to hit and -2 to AC when not on your turn.

[ColdBrew]

That's not how it works. An AoO is not a charge.
This has been argued on the char op forums. The wording is such that your Power Attack bonus is modified, with no qualifications. Therefore until that bonus wears off, it's +100%.

[Brauron]

Alright, some background on the game in question.

My friend, we'll call him "G," is DMing his first campaign. He decided to make it a "No Magic" campaign. The most powerful equipment we could expect to get a hold of would be Masterwork.

Unfortunately, G has never bothered to crack open the DMG or DMG II, despite having both. He never looks at the MM beyond a creature's stats, and so encounters tend to be grossly unfair. Additionally he never spends more than 30 minutes planning adventures.

Well, we all have our flaws, and those of us with a bit more experience are trying to teach him the art of DMing. However, after the last session we're kind of at our patience's end. We were five 9th level characters, chased down a narrow canyon by FIVE Purple Worms, and then "rescued" by ELEVEN hungry Hieracosphinxes. After my Samurai and my friend "L"'s Knight were butchered by the Hieracosphinxes for being unable to answer a truly abominable riddle, G declared loudly and repeatedly, "No one was supposed to die this session! No one! Why did you get yourselves killed?"

So if he's going to ignore our advice and continue to throw monsters 3-6 CRs above us (He once asked me, "three level 5 characters can take down a CR 15 monster, right?") we're going to create characters that can take down the monsters, or at least come close.

So there's no magic items, no spell-casters.

My stats are: STR 17, DEX 15, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 10.

I have a Masterwork Maul and a Masterwork Breastplate.

And right now, having read your comments, the build looks like this:

1.) Human Barbarian 1, feats Power Attack and Dodge
2.) Human Fighter 1, feat Mobility
3.) Human Fighter 2, feats Cleave and Great Cleave
4.) Human Fighter 3, no feats
5.) Human Fighter 4, feat Improved Bull Rush
6.) Human Fighter 5, feat Shock Trooper
7.) Human Fighter 6, Leap Attack
8.) Human Fighter 7, no feats
9.) Human Fighter 8, Spring Attack and Battle Jump
10.) Human Fighter 9, no feats

[Frosty]

I would suggest you do a new build:

Human DM 20
Feats: Skill focus (knowledge - Rules of the Game), Improved Patience, Skill focus (Improvisation), Improved Mutiny (take over DnD)

Skills
Craft (Jokes)
Craft (Disturbing Mental Images)
Knowledge (Limits of your own sanity) - 23
Knowledge (Rules of the Game) - 23
Ride (G's ass) - 23
Listening (to your players) - 23

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd also recommend textually quoting this:

"Dude, D&D is balanced with spellcasters in mind. In fact, ALL the encounters are balanced against a rogue, fighter, wizard, cleric party. Without magic, we should be facing encounters of LOWER CR, yet you throw HIGHER CR mobs at us. Tone it down a bit, and please, please, PLEASE, read through the DM before we revolt and make sure you never DM again."

[Frosty]

Yeah seriously. Get a new DM.

[#Raptor]

Regarding your weapon choice, the maul is probably a subpar choice.

You could go any of those ways:

1.) 1-Handed exotic weapon (Bastard sword, Maul) & 1 lvl of Exotic Weapon Master for uncanny blow.

2.) Reach weapon. This way you can dump all your AC without the risk of getting in a full counter-attack if your enemy survives somehow, simply by landing a few feet away.

3.) Big badass hammer. Because the maul is already a exotic weapon, and if you're already spending a feat, you might as well choose the best one available for your purposes. To be precise, this one:
Not much help, but if you want to go for the exotic huge bashy hammer, try looking for a Greathammer.

Im not 100% sure but I think its somthing brutal like 2d6 with a 19-20/x4 critical. :smalleek:
It's in the Monster Manual 4, page 101.
Minotaurus Greathammer. It's 1d12 though, but hey.

[Person_Man]

Um, pardon my ignorance, but can you jump as your move action on a charge? It just seems particularly risky, since the further you have to go, the higher the jump DC, especially if you need to come down on him from 5 feet in the air.

'Cause, it'd kinda suck to land 10 feet away from your target, down 10 AC.

Yes, you can Jump as part of a Charge. In fact, its a requirement of several feats and maneuvers. Even without those, its a nice way to avoid difficult terrain.

If you're worried about your low AC and a counter attack from enemies, use a reach weapon. I'm also fond of Combat Reflexes and Stand Still or Knockback, but they're optional.


RE: No magic campaigns

Can you use psionics?

Have you considered suggesting one of the various no/low-magic campaign settings, where the classes are rebalanced to deal with them. Midnight springs to mind, but I know there are others.

Have you considered being DM?

[Frosty]

You can also take the Elusive Target feat to negate the Power Attack of one enemy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Tome of Battle isn't magic...

What you need, my friend, is a Warblade. One level of Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion for Pounce, then the rest of your levels in Warblade.

[Brauron]

I will be DMing this coming Saturday, for G and most of the players in our current group.

It will be my third time DMing D&D overall. I'm pitting them against a gang of low-level Hobgoblin grunts (Hobbos being my favorite "villain" race) and a fourth or fifth level Hobgoblin rogue built around tricking opponents into losing their Dex bonuses to AC. They've made characters of 3rd level, as per my request.

G is playing an Elf Sorceror.
A is playing a Kobold Ninja.
D is playing a Half-Orc Cleric of Athena.
K is playing an Elf Swashbuckler.

I think the predominant alignment is Chaotic Good. It seems to me like it's a fairly well-balanced party in terms of abilities and what not.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That 5th level rogue can one-shot anyone but the cleric if he does get sneak attacks. I'd be pretty careful. Specially the Sorcerer, 3d4 hit die is worse than your 3d6 sneak attack, even without base weapon damage, strength mods, and any other bonuses.

Likewise, if the cleric has a Hold Person memorised, your 5th level Rogue is gonna be screwed, since I'm betting he's got, at best, average wisdom.

Basically, it depends on who gets initiative. And if your mastermind rogue can't manage to swing getting the drop on the party (hide + move silently) two levels lower than him, he deserves what he gets.

If you're gonna attack the sorcerer, I'd go for Subdual damage so you don't outright kill him. Claim you're going to try and torture information out of him. A kind of 'you're not going to die that easily, elf scum. You're going to live for months in total and complete agony' thing.

Keep in mind, 1st level warrior grunts aren't much good... except they CAN provide flanking. Show your party how handy working together can be without killing them. Tumble + minions = sneak attacks.

[Hal]

Okay, what about Hurling Charge (Miniatures Handbook)?

The feat allows you to make an attack with a thrown weapon as well as a melee attack on a charge.

Does this qualify as part of the charge for the purposes of Leap Attack and Shock Trooper? I'm curious because I thought rounding this out with Throw Anything and Power Throw might be good for high damage.

[FlyMolo]

You want to charge in and kill everything? Get a lance and mount. Triple damage right there. With a 2hander and PA, you get wpnx2+PAX4. PA with lance gives wpnx3 plus PAx3. combine this with a leaping mount and some leap attack and battle jump stuff? Is that even possible? A twohanded lance, if it's not already?

[Hal]

You want to charge in and kill everything? Get a lance and mount. Triple damage right there. With a 2hander and PA, you get wpnx2+PAX4. PA with lance gives wpnx3 plus PAx3. combine this with a leaping mount and some leap attack and battle jump stuff? Is that even possible? A twohanded lance, if it's not already?

You can't always ride a mount.

[FlyMolo]

You can't always ride a mount.
Usually, you can though. Except for stairs. But get a BoH and remember to open it up every 10 min, you're golden.

And this is a really specific build. Some difficult terrain, and the whole thing is moot anyway.

[Titanium Dragon]

One of the easiest ways to essentially "spring charge" is to learn the Quicksilver Motion maneuver from Tome of Battle, which gives you a move as as a swift action. You could learn it from a feat, or get it in a magic item, but those are both 1/encounter. If you take a single dip into Warblade, you can pick up a few more maneuvers at the same time, as well as getting the use of any given maneuver every other round. I would also recommend Sudden Leap, which gives you a jump as a swift action.

Except it is a level 7 warblade maneuver; you'd need three Diamond Mind maneuvers to get it. Better and easier to get Sudden Leap, which is a level 1 maneuver and lets you jump as a swift action with no prerequisites.

And I severely doubt you could get it in a magic item apart from the martial scrolls, and to be honest it isn't even all that useful then as IIRC using those scrolls is a standard action anyway. :P

[Irreverent Fool]

You can't always ride a mount.
Can too. That's why you can play halflings and gnomes. Seriously. Fellow melee combatants LIKE carrying you into battle on their shoulders!


Tome of Battle isn't magic...

What you need, my friend, is a Warblade. One level of Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion for Pounce, then the rest of your levels in Warblade.

Pounce isn't terribly useful as a warblade. Your maneuvers are standard actions for the most part.

[ColdBrew]

And I severely doubt you could get it in a magic item apart from the martial scrolls, and to be honest it isn't even all that useful then as IIRC using those scrolls is a standard action anyway. :P
There are three tiers of maneuver-granting magic items in ToB, each granting access to a single maneuver of increasing level. Unfortunately, you still need to meet the prereqs, so you're looking at two maneuvers known naturally.

edit: And once again, the 1-level cleric dip with devotion feats proves its worth. Travel and Knowledge, so tasty.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pounce isn't terribly useful as a warblade. Your maneuvers are standard actions for the most part.

Sure it is, same reason why it's extremely useful for ANY charge damage combo. The Warblade part just means once he isn't able to charge anymore... then you only thought the pain was over, but in fact it's only just beginning...

So, charge for full attack. Leading the Charge stance to get their initiator levels to damage. War Leader's Charge includes a Charge (and adds 35 damage, and prevents any AoO as a result of the charge), so you can use PA/ST/LA combo with it, specially if you use the Tiger Fang boost to make a Jump check as a swift action. In fact, half of White Raven involves charging your opponent. So I'd say it works pretty darn well.