Differentiating characters mechanically.

[Glyphic]

So, I'll going home this summer, back to the welcome arms of my old dnd group that I DM for. I'm excited, and have already gotten to planning..

But I have a need for some advice from the play ground. Two of the players had their characters take Npc's as romantic interests. Typically, these pcs are known to invite anyone with class levels along on their adventures (and, as I see it, I need to have a reasonable idea of what these two girls can do to defend themselves and the Pc's base of operations; I plan to have the pcs ripped into the lower planes for a little adventure with demons. And of course, while they're there, the demons will be on the prime plane..)

He's the catch. Both of the romantic interests were "gishes". I know very much how to differentiate them as people, but since we'll be operating at about.. ECL 12-13 to start with, I want these two to be ECL 10.

Both -started- as wizards/X (one was a fighter, the other an aristocrat :P)

I'm looking for Class/spell/feat combinations to keep both of these women solidly in the Gish role, but different enough to have them not be treated the same if they get dragged on an expedition together, they don't end up mime-ing.

relevant info:
Lyra: Member of the Town guard in a magic university. Was fighter/wizard, focus on tripping and eventual Eldrich knight (we were playing core only. I'm -much- more fond of ToB than regular fighters now) Also a member of a little secret society that worked like investigators in CoC. The rest of the town acted as if nothing was wrong..
Being part of the town guard put some wolf pack mentality in her, but she has come to relish any day when she doesn't have to knock a disruptive drunk on their arse, or deal with ghosts and phantasms. Generally friendly/helpful otherwise.

Kenza: Born into a Nobel house hold; haughty, used to getting her own way, and very competitive and individualistic. While she has money to burn, she's not the first born; The Uni was her best way to distinguish herself, burn her brother's inheritance. Not to mention magic is powerful. PC's first 'encounter' with her was a fencing tournament.. and I believe his words at the end of it were "What a B----".


Sooo.. Any advice on building these two mechanically different, but still have them be gishes?

Edit: As far as books go- Use anything you like. I'm fond of ToB, and have access to almost anything.

[Indon]

Have them use different general strategies in combat.

One, for instance, could take levels in Fighter leading to Eldritch Knight, while the other could take levels in Ranger leading to Spellwarp Sniper or something. (Not neccessarily suggesting those specifically, just examples)

You could also have one take a more divine bent than the other with their martial levels.

[Telonius]

Lyra sounds like a Power-Attacking sort, Kenza sounds like Weapon Finesse. Lyra ought to be more heavily armored, and focus on abjuration effects. Kenza would (I think) be wearing leather armor, focus on rays, sneaky tactics, that sort of thing.

Stats
Lyra: High strength, low dex, medium con, medium to high int, medium wis, low cha.
Kenza: Low strength, high dex, medium to low con, medium to high int, medium wis, high cha.

If you're using UA traits, Lyra could get the Cautious, Hardy, or Relentless trait. Kenza could get the Abrasive, Aggressive, or Spellgifted.

[Yakk]

Lyra:
Level 10 classic Gish:
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/EK 4
5d4+1d12+4d6 HP (33+con*10)
+7 BaB/7th level Wizard casting @ CL 10/Warblade 1 (5th level initiator)
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, 1 Metamagic, Scribe Scroll, 1 Fighter, 4 others

Kenza:
Level 10 alterna-Gish: (Note: level 11, but Aristo only counts as half)
Aristo 2/Swordsage 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 2
2d8+4d8+2d4+2d10 (43+con*11)
+7 BaB/4th level Wizard casting @ CL 8/Swordsage 4@ initiator 7th
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, 3 other feats

I'm not sure if they are any good, but they are distinct.

Kenza can cast 1st level Abjuration spells as a swift action. Using the "houserule" that allows Abj. Champion stuff to work on mage armor (sigh) (while adding some requirements that bars a pure-wiz/sorc from the class for 2 feats -- an armor proficiency? I dunno...)

So she has a 16 hour Mage Armor up (@+6 AC) and can put up a +6 AC shield spell as a swift action.

Both have limited ToB moves they can use. Lyra is a better spellcaster, but only has access to Warblade 1 moves.

Kenza is a worse spellcaster, but has access to Swordsage 4 moves.

Neither have that many HP. Keeping CON up could be key to having these characters survive.

You could also beef the characters up with more levels of NPC classes. Expert for Lyra and Aristo for Kenza. That will keep their power level down, but give them more HP, a bit higher saves, and boost their level/HD for various purposes. (Ie, the expert invesitator Lyra won't suck at investigation).

Ie, have each have 4 levels of an NPC class to reflect their less-adventuring professions:

Lyra:
Level 14 (CR 12) Gish:
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/EK 4/Expert 4
5d4+1d12+8d6 HP (47+con*14)
+10 BaB/8th level Wizard casting @ CL 12/Warblade 1 (7th level initiator)
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, 1 Metamagic, Scribe Scroll, 1 Fighter, 5 others
Skills: 79+intB*17 points

Kenza:
Level 14 (CR 12) Gish:
Aristo 4/Swordsage 4/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5
8d8+1d4+5d10 (66+con*14)
+11 BaB/6th level Wizard casting @ CL 10/Swordsage 4@ initiator 9th
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll, 4 other feats
Skills: 81+intB*17 points

(note: burn 1 fighter and 1 general feat on Lyra on Improved Toughness for +28 HP, bringing her to (75+conB*14 HP) -- less "insta-dead" -- and she still has 1 metamagic and 4 other free feats.)

Note: Kenza is a more powerful build, mainly because Aristo > Expert, and Abj. Champion >> Eldritch Knight.

They should, however, fight quite differently. :)

[Squash Monster]

Lyra:
In my mind, a town guard should always be a polearm user with either Improved Trip or Stand Still. She's a gish, so let's go for Stand Still.

This is the generic gish build, it works just fine by level 10:
Fighter 1 / Focused Specialist Transmuter 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7

For feats, get Combat Reflexes and Stand Still. Weapon Focus and Short Haft in a polearm would be fitting, though not optimal. Fill the rest up with generic Transmuter feats: Toughening Transmutation and Extend Spell are good choices.

Strategy here is to be very buffed and using Stand Still to stop anything from moving.


Kenza:
Other than fencing, you know what nobles are traditionally trained in? Music. Which is good, because Bards make the best fencers.

This build is fine at level 10:
Bard 7 / Swiftblade 10 / (something 3)

Feats: Snowflake Wardance, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative

Strategy here is to use Inspire Courage and Snowflake Wardance and Haste. Throw in the free Spring Attack and you've got a pretty scary fighter.

[Glyphic]

First off; Thank you all for your lovely replies. May the Light shine upon you, Brave Warriors!

ERm. okay. I'll be working backward with responses..

@ Squishie. I like the build, but we're not playing with the XP, nor am I familiar with the focused transmuter. Where can I find it; is there a way to try and pick up mageslayer and thicket of blades or something similar? Also, one player is already a bard, so.. that doesn't quite work unfortunately.

@ Yakk. Wonderful ideas. I'm.. likely to most mechanical minded in the group, so I don't mind too much if the npcs don't act too awesome. Though.. I like building awesome things.

@ Telonius. Not playing with flaws or traits, but generally good advice; besides still spell and mithral/twilight, are there any ways to avoid arcane spell failure.. a feat maybe?

@Indon. You got me thinking; are there any wis-based arcane casters, or.. non-cleric Divine gishes?

Also; I need thoughts on how these two might fair against a few.. sneaky devils who are trying to manipulate the town (via being disguised as a pc's old and dead friend). the other thing I need thoughts on is these gishes ability to steal spotlight; are they too much; especially if kenza ends up going Jade phoenix mage or sword sage?
(the rest of the party is fighter/bar/warblade, charismatic/sneaky rouge, bard, and Mystic "the-urge")

[Drider]

@Indon. You got me thinking; are there any wis-based arcane casters, or.. non-cleric Divine gishes?



Archivist from heroes of horror(it is an arcane cleric essentially)?

[Nebo_]

Archivist from heroes of horror(it is an arcane cleric essentially)?

Except that it's divine... It is essentially an Int based Divine caster.

[Yakk]

Rebuilding for CR 10+1 NPCs (the +1 is from the Elite array)
Lyra:
Level 10 (CR 10+1 from Elite Array) Gish:
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/EK 4
5d4+1d12+4d6 HP+10 (con)+10 (improved toughness) = 53 HP
+7 BaB/8th level Wizard casting @ CL 10/Warblade 1 (@5th level initiator)
Feats:
Practiced Spellcaster, Scribe Scroll, Still Spell
Improved Toughness (+10 HP, she needs it)
Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Stats: Str: 12 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 10
Skills: (2+2+1)*13 = 65 skill points (5 ish skills at max)

Gear: Medium armor, Guisarm.

Most spells are memorized with Still Spell metamagic to avoid ASF.

This is a basic crowd control build. She trips and stands still opponents with her Guisarm.

Still Spell lets her get spells off in full armor.


Kenza:
Level 12 (CR 10+1 from Elite array) Gish:
Aristo 4/Swordsage 4/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 3
HP: 55 (8d8+1d4+3d10 = 55+conB*12)
+9 BaB/4th level Wizard casting @ CL 8/Swordsage 4 @ initiator 8th
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll, 4 other feats
Skills: 4*(2+1) + 4*(6+1) + (4+3)*(4+1) = 75 points (5ish skills at max)
Stats: Str: 8 Dex: 16 Con: 10 Int: 14 Wis: 11 Cha: 12

Gear: No armor, single Rapier

Feats:
Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll
Weapon Finess, Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Dash (+5 speed in light/no armor)

Note:
Can cast first level Abjurations as a Swift action.
Gains an extra +3 AC bonus on Shield and (using the common sense interpretation) Mage Armor (homebrewed to add the Abjuration school to the spell -- it helps).

With Mage Armor up, she has +7 armor AC. As a swift action, can bring up Shield for another +7 AC. +3 AC from dex, and +1 from Dodge, gives her an AC of +18 (ie, 28). That should be enough to fight unarmored without being a complete gimp, even at ECL 12ish.

...

Because you noted that the characters you are using aren't optimal, neither are the above. Both are a mixture of mechanics and character history.

Kenza is a Duelist. Fast draw, unarmored, mobile. She uses a single weapon with nothing in her offhand: yes, that is often unoptimal, but that is her fighting style.

Lyra is a Guard. Control rather than kill. Reasonably useful for backup, and reasonably effective against humanoids. She has a better set of spells that Kenza, but relies on armor more.

Both only have access to relatively low level spells and Maneuvers. This should help reduce the "outshine PC" problem. At the same time, both have lots of options on a given round.

Both should pick a specialization school, and martial choices. Kenza: Abjuration/Desert Wind. Lyra: ??

Magical items have to be chosen for both. Spells have to be chosen for both.

Lyra should bias towards non-S spells, to avoid the +1 level hit. Power Word could be good...

See:
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-472555.html
for a long list of spells that don't suffer ASF from armor.

[Squash Monster]

@ Squishie. I like the build, but we're not playing with the XP, nor am I familiar with the focused transmuter. Where can I find it; is there a way to try and pick up mageslayer and thicket of blades or something similar? Also, one player is already a bard, so.. that doesn't quite work unfortunately. Now that's something I haven't been called in a while.

Focused Specialist is an alternative class feature for Wizards, which you can find in Complete Mage. Very simply, you start with specialist, lose another school, lose one spell slot per level, and gain two more school-only slots. It sounds harsh, but it's very worth it. For your gish, you'll want to drop enchantment, evocation, and necromancy. I normally like to drop Abjuration instead of Necromancy, but that's not an option on a gish.

You could take Mage Slayer as the 9th level feat for her, but I'd advise against it because it obliterates the caster level. If you absolutely need it though, pick up Practiced Spellcaster at 12th to make up for it.

Thicket of Blades, on the other hand, is a much happier idea. Take Martial Study to pick up a Devoted Spirit (Vanguard Strike, I guess), then Martial Stance for Thicket of Blades. You qualify at level 10, so make her take that level of Eldritch Knight at 10 to get the bonus feat early, and you're good. Assuming human, that leaves your feat build something like:
Level 1: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Human: Stand Still
Level 3: Toughening Transmutation
Level 6: Martial Study: Vanguard Strike
Wizard 5: Extend Spell
Level 9: Mage Slayer
Eldritch Knight 1: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades

But I'd still recommend replacing Mage Slayer with just about anything.
(And a small strategy note: Extended Wraith Strike is your friend: she can power attack for full, still hit very reliably, and have that making Stand Still awesome.)

For your other character, it's a shame two Bards is a problem. However, I think Swiftblade is still a good option. Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4 is fine. You could also consider the Martial Study route on this one: if you work in the Shadow Hand discipline you can pick up Shadow Blade, which adds dex to damage. Add Weapon Finesse and Einhander and you're in fencing land again.

[Telonius]

@ Telonius. Not playing with flaws or traits, but generally good advice; besides still spell and mithral/twilight, are there any ways to avoid arcane spell failure.. a feat maybe?

The Spellword PrC from Complete Warrior (Squash Monster mentioned it as part of the build) decreases spell failure. There are a few other things that can reduce spell failure, but they're not really applicable (Unarmored Body for a Warforged, Master Spellthief, etc.) The Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane may or may not help out - not sure how that would interact with Spellsword.