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View Full Version : The Flanking Dual-Lancer (Die, Die My Darling Edition 2!)



Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 02:49 PM
Those of you familiar with the previous installment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69760&highlight=Dual+Lances)of this new series will recognize the style of this warrior: Dual-Wielding Lancering. Aside from being totally badass to the tenth power, this amazing build is absolutely undefeatable*.

*:Not actually undefeatable. But, hella cool.

Below is a companion to the First Warrior, which happens to be more of a Fighter. This is his rogue buddy - who has taken up the path of lancer as well. I mean, if you really want to optimize, your whole party should be composed of Lancers. Here's how to do it for those of you who like to play "Sneaky Types".

Strategy:

While the first, Fighter Lancer charges fourth to meet the foe head on, the Rogue Lancer is supposed to flank and hit the same target from the side. While it is unlikely that the first target will survive the Fighter's attack, this is simply to ensure your foe will be defeated.

Build:

1 Barbarian
5 Rogue
4 Fighter
10 Cavalier

1st level: Barbarian Ability: Pounce, via Complete Champion
1st Feat: Mounted Combat
Human Feat: Ride-By Attack
3rd Feat: Weapon Focus: Lance
6th Feat: Spirited Charge
Fighter Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter Feat: Power Attack
Fighter Feat: Improved Bull Rush
9th Feat: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
12th Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15th Feat: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18th Feat: Shock Trooper

Sneak Attack: +3d6.

BAB: +18/+13/+8/+3

Starting Stats: 25pt buy

STR 18
DEX 13
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 8

At 20:

STR +6 (magic) +5 (levels) +5 (inherent): 34 (+12 modifier)

attack
18 (BAB) + 1 (mounted benefit) + 2 (Charge!) + 3 (Mounted Weapon Bonus: Lance, ty Cavalier!), + 12 (STR), +1 (Focus) +5 (magic) = 42 attack. -2 for TWF.

So, +40/+40/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25 for your charge.

Since you're using Shock Trooper, you don't lose any attack - just AC. But, since you can Ride-By Attack on a Charge, you don't have to worry about that.

damage
1d8 (lance) +5 (magic) + 2d6 (vicious) +1d6 (fire) +1d6 (frost) +1d6 (lightning) 12 (STR mod) + 36 (-18 PA) +4d6 (sneak attack)

4.5+5+12+36+14+10.5=82

82*5 for Cavalier's Unstoppable Charge: 410.

Assuming all hit, that's 410*4=1640, 380*3 = 1140, 1140+1640=2780. Now, you can drop a crappy +1 enchantment to grab Valorous, which doubles your charge damage. 5560, minus an insignificant amount of damage lost from dropping that enchantment.


If you take the Abyss-Bound Soul feat, you can double it again - that of course requires you to lose two Rogue levels to grab either two Ranger or two Fighter levels (to get an extra feat that you can use).

You should do about 8000 damage, if further *doubling* actually just increases the multiplying factor by 1 (making it x3 instead of x2).

Of course, some of your damage requires you to flank (Sneak Attack) - but that's okay. As we established, your Fighter goes in first, then you come in from the side to smash 'em again.

Now, just gotta get both the Cleric and Wizard on the horse, and your team will be golden...

Cybren
2008-02-27, 03:07 PM
Where are you getting the dex for improved/greater two weapon fighting?
Perhaps ignore strength, and get Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade.
Also: does all of that multiply on a crit?

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-27, 03:10 PM
That's stupid.

That's broken.

That's illogical.

That's awesome.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 03:13 PM
Where are you getting the dex for improved/greater two weapon fighting?
Perhaps ignore strength, and get Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade.
Also: does all of that multiply on a crit?

Eh, go with two levels of ranger, wear mithral breastplate.

Person_Man
2008-02-27, 03:15 PM
Only static bonuses, like Power Attack, are multiplied. Bonus dice of damage (Sneak Attack, Flaming, etc) aren't multiplied.

From the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combat.html):


Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Frosty
2008-02-27, 03:20 PM
Charging is good in general. You don't need any sneak attack (not like it stacks with multipliers anyways)

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 04:20 PM
Where are you getting the dex for improved/greater two weapon fighting?

Magic Items.



Perhaps ignore strength, and get Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade.
Also: does all of that multiply on a crit?

No. And, yes.

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 04:21 PM
Only static bonuses, like Power Attack, are multiplied. Bonus dice of damage (Sneak Attack, Flaming, etc) aren't multiplied.

From the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combat.html):

First of all, shut up.

Secondly, stay quiet.

Solo
2008-02-27, 04:40 PM
Those of you familiar with the previous installment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69760&highlight=Dual+Lances)of this new series will recognize the style of this warrior: Dual-Wielding Lancering. Aside from being totally badass to the tenth power, this amazing build is absolutely undefeatable*.

*:Not actually undefeatable. But, hella cool.

Forcecage :p

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 04:49 PM
Forcecage :p

I have a better one: being in a forest

Or using: a concealed ditch

Or: a wall

Or: arrows

Or: kill the horse

Or: infantry squares

Or: an aquatic or undergound campaign

Solo
2008-02-27, 04:52 PM
I have a better one: being in a forest

Or using: a concealed ditch

Or: a wall

Or: arrows

Or: kill the horse

Or: infantry squares

Or: an aquatic or undergound campaign

Bah, too easy, not enough magical death.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-27, 04:55 PM
damage
... + 36 (-18 PA) ...

You do not get your 2:1 return unless you wield the weapon in 2 hands. The FAQ has clarified that it is the number of hands you use when wielding the weapon that counts, not what it is listed as on the weapon table.

Person_Man
2008-02-27, 05:05 PM
First of all, shut up.

Secondly, stay quiet.

Pardon me?

I wasn't aware you were allowed to flame me when I point out incorrect math.

BRC
2008-02-27, 05:13 PM
This isn't a thread for logic.
This is a thread for duel-wielding lances

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 05:14 PM
Make sure your mount is a centaur, so he can dual wield lances too.

playswithfire
2008-02-27, 05:23 PM
Also, unless I'm missing something, adding Valorous wouldn't double your overall damage, it would increase it by 20% as it would take you from 5x damage to 6x damage



Multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1=3).

And while I'm here, I'll redo the damage math using the actual rules, as quoted by Person Man and Lord Silvanos

4.5+5+12+18=39.5
14+10.5=24.5 bonus dice

39.5*5 for Cavalier's Unstoppable Charge+bonus dice: 222. 192 offhand

So total damage of 4*222+3*192=1464

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-27, 05:23 PM
Make sure your mount is a centaur, so he can dual wield lances too.

And what exactly is the Centaur mounted on to accomplish that feat. :smallamused:

There are no rules for mounting a mount on a mount.

BRC
2008-02-27, 05:25 PM
And what exactly is the Centaur mounted on to accomplish that feat. :smallamused:

There are no rules for mounting a mount on a mount.

So the centaur gets one, you get two and the gnome riding on your shoulder gets 2 as well

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-27, 05:27 PM
So the centaur gets one, you get two and the gnome riding on your shoulder gets 2 as well

Personally I would have used a Thri-keen...

BRC
2008-02-27, 05:28 PM
Personally I would have used a Thri-keen...
Hmm, I like your thinking.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 05:31 PM
Personally, I'd go psychic warrior feral anthropomorphic octopus, with the insectile and two headed template. Get that feat that lets you do 2x str damage on a charge, regardless of which hand you use.

playswithfire
2008-02-27, 05:42 PM
Thri-Kreen sounds good to me

I'd also drop cavalier if the only benefit is x5 and get the riding boots from DMG2 and use Valorous and Collision weapon enhancements

Gets back up to x5 and the bonus from Collision will multiply

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 10:41 PM
Pardon me?

I wasn't aware you were allowed to flame me when I point out incorrect math.

Lighten up, bud - my post was meant to be taken as a "hush, you're ruining the fun of an already silly concept".

Deepblue706
2008-02-27, 10:45 PM
I made some adjustments - I actually didn't have Power Attack on the feat list!

Okay, I'd say I'm gonna rethink this one out (screwy numbers, etc) - but it's pointless. The original with a few rogue levels in place of fighter just isn't enough of a difference to call this a real sequel.

However, I may end up attempting a Gish Lancer. That'll be some fun.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 10:49 PM
I made some adjustments - I actually didn't have Power Attack on the feat list!

Okay, I'd say I'm gonna rethink this one out (screwy numbers, etc) - but it's pointless. The original with a few rogue levels in place of fighter just isn't enough of a difference to call this a real sequel.

However, I may end up attempting a Gish Lancer. That'll be some fun.

You should see how many mounts you can stack. Make sure one of them is swordsage so any squares he is adjacent to count as flanked for his allies.