533: Shouldn't that be "a usurper"?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The rival leader with the patch says in panel 11 midway through page 533, "If you wish to meet your end defending the stained honor of an usurper..."

It should be "a usurper".

Honestly, I think Rich does this on purpose to keep the forums going.

[Iliad]

no. Usurper starts with a vowel so it's "an"

[kpenguin]

True, but in "usurper" it makes a consonant sound. Like in "unicorn"

[Niknokitueu]

(Quickly thinks of an honest reply...)

Think of it as a vagrary of the English language. Like slipping up and saying 'an unit of alcohol' when it should be 'a unit of alcohol' (or to be honest, lots of units of alcohol... :smallbiggrin:)

It may be written 'a usurper', but when spoken you will often hear 'an usurper', as you tend to put an 'n' before vowels...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[VanBuren]

(Quickly thinks of an honest reply...)

Think of it as a vagrary of the English language. Like slipping up and saying 'an unit of alcohol' when it should be 'a unit of alcohol' (or to be hinest, lots of units of alcohol... :D)

In the written language, 'a usurper' is correct. When spoken, you will often hear 'an usurper', as you tend to put an 'n' before vowels...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Wouldn't it be the other way around, since it'd be easier to to forget the consonant sound that comes at the beginning? Seems like speaking it as 'an usurper' would just feel wrong and thus be less prone to the mistake.

[kabbor]

no. Usurper starts with a vowel so it's "an"
I'm very much afraid that it is not that simple. We all know "an historical.." but "a history" - The key is that pronunciation, not the spelling.

When we say "usurper", linguists actually place a consonant first - often y, sometimes j - and that means that, for a/an calculations, there is a consonant sound first. In layman's language, the pronunciation is you-SERP-er. y is (in this instance!) playing the part of a consonant, so it should have been "a usurper".
Added to that, it sounds right. "an usurper" rolls off the tongue like a thistle's seed pod.

[Edmundog]

I'm very much afraid that it is not that simple. We all know "an historical.." but "a history" - The key is that pronunciation, not the spelling.

"An historical" is never correct, unless your accent causes you to drop the H entirely. And it's still not right, but at least it's excusable.

[Yuki Akuma]

"An historical" is never correct, unless your accent causes you to drop the H entirely. And it's still not right, but at least it's excusable.

Sorry, no.

"An historic" is a perfectly acceptable language construction.

(Dropping letters isn't any less right than not dropping them, either. It isn't due to laziness, most of the time, it's simply how people pronounce words.)

[FujinAkari]

Sorry, no.

"An historic" is a perfectly acceptable language construction.

(Dropping letters isn't any less right than not dropping them, either. It isn't due to laziness, most of the time, it's simply how people pronounce words.)

Sorry, no.

"An historic" is incorrect grammar. An is only used preceeding words whose initial sound is a vowel sound, such as herb.

Technically, usurper begins with a "y" sound, so it probably should be "a usurper."

[Demented]

Maybe Giant just foregoes the y. It's a valid pronunciation.
Add to that matter that, a far as I am concerned, 'a' vs. 'an' should be used according to pronunciation, and any grammatician who insists on 'an' or 'a' being used arbitrarily for any situation is going to find him or herself obsoleted* right out of the history books.

*It should probably be "himself or herself" and "made obsolete", but until this is a dead language, I can do what I want, darnit!


Of course, if you want to debate that the line to be drawn here is one based on formality of speech, I won't utter a peep.

[Edmundog]

(Dropping letters isn't any less right than not dropping them, either. It isn't due to laziness, most of the time, it's simply how people pronounce words.)

Sorry, I was unclear. It's okay to say "an 'istoric" because otherwise you fumble over the awkward sound. But written, it should always be "a historic", because that's what it is.


"An historic" is incorrect grammar. An is only used preceeding words whose initial sound is a vowel sound, such as herb.


Bingo.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Sorry, no.

"An historic" is incorrect grammar. An is only used preceeding words whose initial sound is a vowel sound, such as herb.

Technically, usurper begins with a "y" sound, so it probably should be "a usurper."

Almost, but not quite. "Herb" starts with a distinct h- sound, unlike - for example - "hour", hence:


A herb.
An hour (silent "h").


I had a long discussion with my English teacher over this...

[zippthorne]

Almost, but not quite. "Herb" starts with a distinct h- sound, unlike - for example - "hour", hence:


A herb.
An hour (silent "h").


I had a long discussion with my English teacher over this...

It does in UK English, as I have been lead to believe at least. I haven't been there yet, so I can't say. But across the pond we say 'erb. And it's pretty well universal.

So I guess it comes down to whether the Giant speaks the Queen's English or Noah Webster's English.

[FujinAkari]

Almost, but not quite. "Herb" starts with a distinct h- sound, unlike - for example - "hour", hence:


A herb.
An hour (silent "h").


I had a long discussion with my English teacher over this...

Oh thats right... you crazy brits actually pronounce the h... well disregard that part of my post for you guys, lol.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Oh, all-powerful and ever-knowing Wiki! How do we, unworthy of your wisdom, choose when to use 'a' and when to use 'an'?

The form "an" is always prescribed before words beginning with a silent h, such as "honorable", "heir", "hour", and, in American English, "herb". Some British dialects (for example, Cockney) silence all initial h's (h-dropping) and so employ "an" all the time: e.g., "an 'elmet". Many British usage books,[citation needed] therefore, discount a usage which some Americans (amongst others) employ as being a derivative of the Cockney.[citation needed] The reason is that the indefinite article a is pronounced either of two ways: as a schwa, or as the letter itself is pronounced, "long a" (actually a diphthong, /eɪ/). Some words beginning with the letter h have the primary stress on the second or later syllable. Pronouncing a as a schwa can diminish the sound of the schwa and melt into the vowel. Pronouncing it as a "long a" does not do this, but as the pronunciation cannot be prescribed, the word is spelled the same for either. Hence an may be seen in such phrases as "an historic", "an heroic", and "an hôtel of excellence" was the by-line in an advertisement in a New York City newspaper.[citation needed]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage is more descriptive than prescriptive, but it advises, "You choose the article that suits your own pronunciation." Theodore Bernstein gives the straight vowel-sound vs. consonant-sound explanation but allows that one should indeed say "an hotel" if they think hotel is pronounced otel.[1]

Such was also the case for some other words which take the place of the article. "My" and "thy" became "mine" and "thine", as in "mine uncle". This usage is now obsolete.

The appearance of an or a in front of words beginning with h is not limited to stress. Sometimes there are historical roots as well. Words that may have had a route into English via French (where all "h"s are unpronounced) may have an to avoid an unusual pronunciation. Words that derived from German however would use a as the h's would be pronounced. There is even some suggestion that fashion may have had some influence. When England was ruled by a French aristocracy, the tradition may have been to exclusively use an, while when Britain was governed by a German-based monarchy the tide may have changed to a.[citation needed]

Further, some words starting with "u" (like "unique" or "user") have a preceding "a" because they are pronounced as if beginning with an initial "y" consonant.

To add emphasis to a noun, the preceding indefiinite article is often pronounced as a long a (just as the definite article would be pronounced as "thee" in such cases), whether or not the schwa, or even "an" would be the appropriate usage. In recent years, there has been a noticeable trend to pronouncing almost all indefinite articles in this way, especially in radio or television announcements or news-reading.

In addition to serving as an article, a and an are also used as synonyms for the number one, as in "make a wish", "a hundred". An was originally an unstressed form of the number án 'one'.

A and an are also used to express a proportional relationship, such as "a dollar a day" or "$150 an ounce" or "A Mars a day helps you work, rest and play", although historically this use of "a" and "an" does not come from the same word as the articles.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_and_an)

So let it be written. So let it be done.

[Jokes]

[citation needed]

:smallamused:

I bounce around my pronunciation a lot, I'll use an herb one day and a herb the next. I guess it depends on how fast I'm talking. But I don't think I have ever said/written "an usurper."

Incidentally, I remember hearing on a doco once that it was considered upper class to drop ones "h."

[TorJin]

I have heard "usurper" pronounced in various ways- including "oo-sir-per". If Giant pronounces it like that, then using an makes sense.

[mockingbyrd7]

I've always pronounced the word usurper as "oo-SERP-er", so I would say "an usurper". However, I've heard "yoo-SERP-er" as well on rare occasions, so I suppose that it depends on how you pronounce it and where you're from.

[Strengfellow]

This could get really messy.

Let's all take a deep breath and avoid all mention of the accursed glottal stop, let alone the 21st letter of the alphabet else we shall be here until Roy gets resurected.

Although it is nice to see that pedants are still at large on this forum.

[The gF]

This thread needs to be an hero.

[mikeejimbo]

I've always pronounced the word usurper as "oo-SERP-er", so I would say "an usurper". However, I've heard "yoo-SERP-er" as well on rare occasions, so I suppose that it depends on how you pronounce it and where you're from.

Yeah, me too. But I have bad pronunciation so I figured I was just well, mispronouncing it.

[The Extinguisher]

They should just make it one word and have it pronouced based on personal preference.

Of course, I like to mix it up to see if people are paying attention.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

This thread needs to be an hero.

Don't be an has.

[Chronos]

Maybe Giant just foregoes the y. It's a valid pronunciation.
Add to that matter that, a far as I am concerned, 'a' vs. 'an' should be used according to pronunciation, and any grammatician who insists on 'an' or 'a' being used arbitrarily for any situation is going to find him or herself obsoleted* right out of the history books.The rule is that one always uses "a" before a consonant, and "an" before a vowel. But what a lot of people don't realize is that consonants and vowels aren't letters, they're sounds. So "hour", for instance, starts with a vowel (despite the fact that its first letter usually produces a consonant sound), and "unicorn" starts with a consonant (despite the fact that its first letter usually produces a vowel sound). So the rule is, in fact, based entirely on pronounciation, not spelling.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I still say the "you" sound is a vowel sound. After all, it's pronounced the same way as you would the letter ''U".

[Qov]

I still say the "you" sound is a vowel sound. After all, it's pronounced the same way as you would the letter ''U".
Right, but the name of the letter "u" is pronounced as if it starts with a y.

Decide for yourself if you would put a or an in front of university, unicorn, unit, urine sample, usergroup, umbrella, underground passage, and ukelele. I suspect you'll find that you would use "a" for all but umbrella and underground passage. You can Google and discover that most people write the same. The thing is, an initial u is used to represent different sounds in English. Sometimes it's a yoo sound, as in use, and sometimes it's an uh sound, as in under. There probably are cases of initial u as an oo sound, but I can't think of any right now.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Right, but the name of the letter "u" is pronounced as if it starts with a y.

Decide for yourself if you would put a or an in front of university, unicorn, unit, urine sample, usergroup, umbrella, underground passage, and ukelele. I suspect you'll find that you would use "a" for all but umbrella and underground passage. You can Google and discover that most people write the same. The thing is, an initial u is used to represent different sounds in English. Sometimes it's a yoo sound, as in use, and sometimes it's an uh sound, as in under. There probably are cases of initial u as an oo sound, but I can't think of any right now.

Exactly. See this is why they made spelling in Klingon so much easier.

[Sly Reference]

There probably are cases of initial u as an oo sound, but I can't think of any right now.

Uzi and Uzbek. There are a couple of proper names that spring to mind too, but I don't think there are any native English words that begin with an "oo" sound.

[Zeitgeist]

Uzi and Uzbek. There are a couple of proper names that spring to mind too, but I don't think there are any native English words that begin with an "oo" sound.

Don't forget words that start with uh, such as underground and umpire. Those are also preceded by "an" rather than "a". Also, urban, ugly, and unkempt. Or any un- word for that matter.

Actually, in contrast, very few "u" words use "a" over "an", simple basing on the un- words alone.

And that's not an understatement, if you understand my unbelievable unbiased utterances.

[Demented]

An urgent matter.

And, if internet culture has anything to say about it, uber. =P

[batsofchaos]

Making grammar arguments about conversational English is fun and all, but there are a couple things missing here:

Pronunciation rules are only hard and fast when it concerns consonants. They are never hard and fast concerning vowels. Hour is pronounced 'our, and that's the only correct pronunciation, since it concerns a consonant. However, one could pronounce 'our so it rhymes with flower, or they could pronounce it so it rhymes with moor. Both are correct. One may be a bit more dialectical than the other, but both are considered correct pronunciation in the English language.

The Wiki article says "whichever one fits is fine," and that's certainly true in spoken English, but written English makes no assumptions about pronunciation, so words starting with a vowel (or with a consonant that is silent) should have 'an.'

[Spiky]

Only because of the bastardization by illiterates that has gone on so long unchecked. Everybody I know pronounces our the same way as are. Which is not correct, except that it's assumed to be by common-law over-abuse for decades. People can't be bothered to learn basic grammar, spelling, pronounciation in their own language. Or anything else.

Idiots.

[Zeitgeist]

Pronunciation rules are only hard and fast when it concerns consonants. They are never hard and fast concerning vowels

It's yet one reason I can hardly stand this language. I'm not very good at Spanish, but pronunciation is a cinch, since the vowels have one sound. And if they are different, you know, because there is an accent. I hate pronunciation guesswork.

But what can you expect when your language is a combination of languages people had to mesh together to communicate?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Only because of the bastardization by illiterates that has gone on so long unchecked. Everybody I know pronounces our the same way as are. Which is not correct, except that it's assumed to be by common-law over-abuse for decades. People can't be bothered to learn basic grammar, spelling, pronounciation in their own language. Or anything else.

Idiots.
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.Also, if you're going to complain, learn to spell. It's pronunciation. :smalltongue:

[rmromero]

What is often misunderstood is that all of the words used as examples have begun, historically, with vowel sounds.

The letter "y," while treated as a consonant at times, is actually a diphthong. Say "ee-oo" very slowly, then gradually speed it up, and eventually you'll realize you are saying "you." The same is true for "(EE-OO)-sur-per," if such is your favored method of pronunciation. It may seem unnatural, but it is still a vowel.

The letter "h" was originally understood as a "hard vowel," throwing a bit of the guttural into an otherwise non-stop. The Greeks did not even have a letter "h," but instead let context and knowledge of their language work for them until someone threw a backward comma over their letters as a diacritical mark. Word like "historic," "heroic," and "herb" (in British usage) are just hard vowels at the beginning. Dropping the "h" sounds then makes sense when understood not as a separate letter, but simply as a means of pronouncing that letter. English has muddled it up a bit by actually making "h" a separate letter than people think is work pronouncing, but in reality it is just part of the vowel.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

What is often misunderstood is that all of the words used as examples have begun, historically, with vowel sounds.

The letter "y," while treated as a consonant at times, is actually a diphthong. Say "ee-oo" very slowly, then gradually speed it up, and eventually you'll realize you are saying "you." The same is true for "(EE-OO)-sur-per," if such is your favored method of pronunciation. It may seem unnatural, but it is still a vowel.

The letter "h" was originally understood as a "hard vowel," throwing a bit of the guttural into an otherwise non-stop. The Greeks did not even have a letter "h," but instead let context and knowledge of their language work for them until someone threw a backward comma over their letters as a diacritical mark. Word like "historic," "heroic," and "herb" (in British usage) are just hard vowels at the beginning. Dropping the "h" sounds then makes sense when understood not as a separate letter, but simply as a means of pronouncing that letter. English has muddled it up a bit by actually making "h" a separate letter than people think is work pronouncing, but in reality it is just part of the vowel.

Huh, you don't say

[Snadgeros]

By Heironeous.....I've never seen such a large gathering of grammar nazis before.....

EVERYONE! To arms! The grammar nazis are mobilizing! Everyone prepare for the invasion! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!

[Alynn]

Just because this is the internet and I can give my opinion I will...

Grammar serves one purpose and one purpose only, to help facilitate communication by standardizing the spoken and written word. What does that mean? It means that in the great scheme of things, grammar doesn't matter, as long as communication takes place.

If I, for instance, make a statement that is grammatically incorrect, yet completely understandable by those that have a reasonable understanding of the language, both written and verbal, then the purpose of the communication has taken place, and is therefore correct. Regardless (or irregardless since they mean the same thing) of the book correct formation of the sentence.

To those that said the language is being bastardized. Remember that language is not stagnant, it will always grow and evolve as time and people move forward. There are probably thousands of words that are grammatically correct today that started as mispronunciations, or bad spelling 300 years ago. It's the nature of the beast.

This goes along the same lines why I have no issues with "vulgar" language. There is no difference, in my mind, between the word poop and s***, yet for whatever historical reason, the "s-word" has a stigma in American society as being Vulgar. I teach my children this, they understand that society as a whole (school which is most of what they know of society) will punish her for using such language, so it is best to be avoided in public settings. I however don't see the problem.

[Remirach]

Regardless (or irregardless since they mean the same thing)
::twitch:: Oh, man, you just had to go there didn't you.

I had a boss who used the word "irregardless" all the time. It just bugs me. The only thing that I find more irritating is when people use the word "literally" to mean "figuratively" -- which means the exact opposite! Ooh, or say "I could care less" about something. ::twitch:: ::twitch::

[KurenaiYami]

Just because this is the internet and I can give my opinion I will...

Grammar serves one purpose and one purpose only, to help facilitate communication by standardizing the spoken and written word. What does that mean? It means that in the great scheme of things, grammar doesn't matter, as long as communication takes place.

But the problem is that letting the grammar go in a few situations is a slippery slope. Eventually, people break down to the point where they fail to communicate what they are trying to communicate effectively, or at all in some cases.

It's disturbing how many times I have to guess at what somebody's trying to say, but unable to.

I really don't think the Giant is in danger of this of course, and probably either mistyped or pronounces it the British way. A way in which I have never known it to be pronounced prior to this thread, I might add. So I learned something today!

[HamsterOfTheGod]

By Heironeous.....I've never seen such a large gathering of grammar nazis before.....

EVERYONE! To arms! The grammar nazis are mobilizing! Everyone prepare for the invasion! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Grammar Nazis? Did the Nazis butcher grammar too?

Nice try but Quirk's exception supersedes Godwin's law.

[batsofchaos]

Because I'm an English geek, I would like to explain vulgar words, and why there is stigma attached to certain words, but not others.

Most people know that the English language is a bastardization of French and German. For those that don't, here's a quick and dirty run-down of how this happened:

The Anglo-Saxons living in England were a Germanic people, and spoke a form of German that holds a lot of similarities to current spoken German--low Germanic dialects, IIRC. Then, the Normans came in, conquered the land, and enslaved the people. The Normans spoke French. From this little set-up (ruling French upper-class, subordinant German lower-class), English was birthed over an extended period of time. This results in a language split that is traceable in English. For example; take the words Swine and Pork. Swine is Germanic in origin, and Pork is French in origin. And it makes sense; the lower-class raised the animal, while the upper-class ate the meat.

Where do vulgarities come into this discussion? Makes just as much sense as the swine-pork comparison; German words became 'vulgar' since they denoted a lower-class standing. 99% of English curse words are German in origin. Those that aren't, are just nasty insults (most know the 'b' word is a perfectly innocent word used to describe female dogs and is only a curse-word because people generally don't like to be called a female dog, for example).

The more you know!

[Zeitgeist]

But the problem is that letting the grammar go in a few situations is a slippery slope. Eventually, people break down to the point where they fail to communicate what they are trying to communicate effectively, or at all in some cases.

I can see it now, one step at a time.

A usurper.
An usurper.
An oosurper.
An oosurpur
An oosirpurr.
Uhn oosirpurr.
Uhn osrpur.
un osrpr.

Let's stop this horrible transition at stage one!

(The preceding message has been a dramatization... or has it?)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I can see it now, one step at a time.

A usurper.
An usurper.
An oosurper.
An oosurpur
An oosirpurr.
Uhn oosirpurr.
Uhn osrpur.
un osrpr.

Let's stop this horrible transition at stage one!

(The preceding message has been a dramatization... or has it?)

ORLY?

SRSLY!

[KurenaiYami]

UPDATE!

My English teacher showed me not one, not two, but three college essays that used the word "cos."

Also, 50% of the papers she had me correct used the wrong form of "there" at least once.

It is truly painful.


Those that aren't, are just nasty insults (most know the 'b' word is a perfectly innocent word used to describe female dogs and is only a curse-word because people generally don't like to be called a female dog, for example).

I actually catch a lot of lip for using terms like that correctly. I own two bitches, one being one of my dearest friends since 1996. Yet when I refer to them as what they are, I get told not to use that word. Only women have done so, actually...knee-jerk reaction, perhaps?

A similar situation is whenever I claim myself to be in a gay mood. My friends always either giggle or take a few steps away from me.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I think 'bitch' as an insult dates back to when men called each other 'dogs' as an insult. Hell, women still call men 'dogs' quite often. It was just a way of calling someone an inferior animal, possibly with connotations that they should submit to your 'obvious' superiority...after all, you weren't a dog.

It was then natural, that if you were going to call a man a 'dog', then if you were indicating a woman...you might need to be specific and call her a 'bitch' which would be the proper way to refer to a dog that is female.

Oddly enough...some old 'insults' and derogatory statements ahve gone so much out of usage in places that they are rarely if ever insulting. 'Tart' was once akin to calling a woman a 'slut'...though, nowadays (at least in America) most women I have seen if you are friends will giggle at the idea that someone called them a tart. Cultural slang is also like that...in the US as far as I know, you can call people 'wankers' and 'limey gits' cause people just think of british comedy and giggle...hardly anyone would take offense. people are weird....

A...an....it changes with pronunciation...English is such a screwy language, it is a wonder that we can use it effectively most of the time. Maybe LoLcat speak is the wave of the future :smallbiggrin:

[SoD]

Personally, I see no way that it should be ''a usurper'', the letter u is a vowel, therefore it is ''an usurper''.

And, with the same context, everyone who says ''an hour'' is grammatically wrong in my books. Which usually includes me.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The point I've been trying to make in the thread is to put grammar in context.

If a K-12 or college student, say, uses "cos" instead of "because" or "there" instead of "their" consistently then it shows a lack of a language skills which is important to properly presenting oneself.

If, on the other hand, the Giant uses "an usurper" rather than "a usurper" then it is just a slight oversight...er perhaps intentional...which can produce an interesting discussion on language, at least to some.

That is, to state something obvious, that English has rules and that these rules can be broken and can change over time are not contradictory positions.

[batsofchaos]

SoD: An hour is grammatically correct because the 'h' is silent. Other than that, you're choices for grammar are perfectly valid. Using "a usurper" is also correct if you're speaking, or writing speech for someone; a lot of people pronounce usurper "yoo-sir-per," and in those instances "a" is more correct than "an." This is not hard-and-fast, though.

Kurenai/Fuzzy: slang insults usually don't end up in the curse word lexicon, unless they themselves contain profanities. Truly, the only words that have been promoted (or demoted, depending on the way you look at it) to profane status in any recent terms are racial slurs. Racial slurs do not fit into the forgotten classism that colors most of English's profanities, as they were developed for the most part in the last two centuries.

[Starbuck_II]

Right, but the name of the letter "u" is pronounced as if it starts with a y.

Decide for yourself if you would put a or an in front of university, unicorn, unit, urine sample, usergroup, umbrella, underground passage, and ukelele. I suspect you'll find that you would use "a" for all but umbrella and underground passage. You can Google and discover that most people write the same. The thing is, an initial u is used to represent different sounds in English. Sometimes it's a yoo sound, as in use, and sometimes it's an uh sound, as in under. There probably are cases of initial u as an oo sound, but I can't think of any right now.

I totally say an university when I speak.

[Shatteredtower]

"An usurper" flows as easily off the tongue as "annual." "An heroic/historic" works fine if you pronounce them properly, softening the h for words ending with an "-ic" suffix.

People get confused because it's generally assumed that the h at the start of "hour" is silent, when it's not. The same mistake is made with the p at the start of "psychology" or the m in "mnemonic". The sounds are there, but they are so subtle as to go unnoticed by most English speakers, to the point that most don't use them at all, not even when writing pronunciation guides.

There's not much call in English for the closed-lip "n" sound that starts
"mnemonic", or for the closed-lip "s" that starts "psychology", as opposed to the usual open-lipped pronunciation we use for both sounds, so most lexicographers didn't bother to include one. The same holds true for the "silent" r in "sarsparilla" (and the tendency many people have to drop the first r in pronouncing "February"), but I've yet to figure out how the r in Chicago wound up in California. And then there's "Wednesday", which is indistinguishable from "Wensday" to many listeners.

The soft "h", meanwhile, modifies the following vowel, and words that use it are more properly pronounced with the two reversed: "ohur" (one syllable), for example. (Not that this is unique to English. Consider "l'hiver" and "le hibou" en français.)

Knowing this, you also realize that most people championing proper grammar are parroting misunderstood guidelines in an effort to make concrete rules out of them, no matter how incorrect those rules would be. That's not education. It's conditioning. It's the same sort of thinking that attempts to force a Germanic language to follow Latin rules even when the results are observably unwieldy and disruptive to communication.

I realize how frustrating this can be for those attempting to learn the language, but it comes from being a customer-based system with no copyright protection. Sometimes it helps to think of the exceptions as an opportunity to learn a little more history, assuming you don't think that a waste of time.

[batsofchaos]

The r in february is silent; it's a defined rule of latin, which is the language of origin for the word 'february.' The only other word in English that uses this rule I can think of off the top of my head is 'defibrillator' is is properly pronounced 'defibulator.' This is a defined rule of latin and despite the fact that those words were adopted into English which doesn't have the same sort of defined rules does not change anything.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

The r in february is silent; it's a defined rule of latin, which is the language of origin for the word 'february.' The only other word in English that uses this rule I can think of off the top of my head is 'defibrillator' is is properly pronounced 'defibulator.' This is a defined rule of latin and despite the fact that those words were adopted into English which doesn't have the same sort of defined rules does not change anything.

Et tu, Brute?

[batsofchaos]

It's not every r after a b, it has to be the second or third syllable I believe. I'd have to be at home to look it up in my linguistics books.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

All grammar rules discussions remind me of an old joke.

A linguistics professor is giving a longwinded lecture to his class one day, "There are languages in which a double negative is an an affirmitive, for example English."

"Then there are languages in which a double negative is still a negative, for example Spanish."

"Curiously, a double positive is always a positive. I have yet to find a language in which a double positive is a negative."

From the back of the class somebody yells, "Yeah, yeah."

[Zeb The Troll]

...and any grammatician who ...An expert in grammar is a grammarian. There is no such thing as a grammatician. :smallcool:


The r in february is silent; it's a defined rule of latin, which is the language of origin for the word 'february.' The only other word in English that uses this rule I can think of off the top of my head is 'defibrillator' is is properly pronounced 'defibulator.' This is a defined rule of latin and despite the fact that those words were adopted into English which doesn't have the same sort of defined rules does not change anything.It is not wrong to pronounce the first 'r' in February. If you follow the link below you'll note that the pronunciation with the 'r' is listed first in each cited source and the one without is listed as a variant pronunciation.


Usage Note (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/february): Although the variant pronunciation (fěb'yōō-ěr'ē) is often censured because it doesn't reflect the spelling of the word, it is quite common in educated speech and is generally considered acceptable. The loss of the first r in this pronunciation can be accounted for by the phonological process known as dissimilation, by which similar sounds in a word tend to become less similar. In the case of February, the loss of the first r is also owing to the influence of January, which has only one r.

The same site* makes no mention of not pronouncing the first 'r' in defibrillator (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defibrillator) and I've never heard anyone say it that way.

*The site, dictionary.com, correlates several online dictionaries including Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Random House, among others.

[hamishspence]

At least, i think thats the way that joke went when I heard it.

I get them impression most grammar is based on the way a word sounds as well as the way it is spelt. "An hour" makes sense because hardly anyone pronounces the H. "An Hospital", by contrast, sounds wrong.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

[Re: For "yeah, yeah" i think one should read "Yeah, right"] At least, i think thats the way that joke went when I heard it.


The only thing more exciting than a good grammar debate is an analysis of humor.

[Jayabalard]

An is only used preceeding words whose initial sound is a vowel sound, such as herb.Herb is definitely a bad example.

Either "an herb" and "a herb" can both be grammatically correct depending on what part of the world you're from, though they can't both be grammatically correct at the same time... because the pronunciation of the word herb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IzDbNFDdP4) varies just like the correct spelling of armor (ie, armour)

[Qov]

I totally say an university when I speak.

That's very interesting, Starbuck. Do you say it: an ooniversity or an yuniversity? Do you live in an area where a lot of people speak a language where the normal pronunciation of university is with an oo, or is it just you?

On the topic of changes involving an, did you know that the little salamander-like creature used to be called an ewt? It stole the n from the article to become a newt.

[Telonius]

Maybe LoLcat speak is the wave of the future :smallbiggrin:

Im in ur diktunery, changin ur spelling roolz!

I can has voiceless epiglottal fricative?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

You aar awl wong. You say it like dis "an u-swoo-par" he he he he.
http://www.elmerfudd.us/elmer.jpg