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Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 03:56 AM
I am trying to put together 7 elements, in a classic fashion. So far I have looked at the Classic Greek 4 (fire, earth, air, water), the Japenese 5 (earth, fire, water, wind, void/heaven), the chinese 5 (metal, wood, fire, water, earth). The Greek additionally has the concept of aether, and the Japenese the sometimes considered an element of consciousness.

Which gives me the following:

Fire
Air/Wind
Earth/Metal/Wood
Void/Heaven/Aether
Consciousness
Water

As for the whys and wherefores, I am working on a campaign setting for BESM, and the elements represent one of the dominant culture's religion. 7 is a significant number for other reasons that aren't fully developed yet.

So, thoughts?

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 03:58 AM
Heart!!!!!!!!!

Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 04:01 AM
I think that would fall under "consciousness".

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 04:03 AM
Earth
Air
Fire
Water
Dark
Light
Cold/energy/mental(pick one)

Tempest Fennac
2008-02-28, 04:07 AM
I'd use:

Fire.
Water.
Earth.
Air.
Void. (Negative/Dark).
Spirit. (Positive/Light).
Electricity.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-28, 04:07 AM
I'd go with Sun&Moon (Yin&Yang, two opposing 'elements' as one), Fire, Wind (as opposed to the serene nature of 'Air'), Water, Earth and Mind (or 'Void' 'subconscious' etc etc).

So you've got rather straightforward elements: earth, fire, water and wind;

More of a conceptual element: Mind (Void/Conscious/Aether/Quintessence, all those things); and

A mystic element, with two seemingly opposing elements bound together in harmony and dissonance: Sun and Moon.

What do you think?

Tengu
2008-02-28, 04:12 AM
You could go with Final Fantasy elements:
Fire
Lightning
Ice
Air
Earth
Water
Life/Death/Poison/Gravity (choose one)

Or Might&Magic elements:
Fire
Air
Earth
Water
Soul
Body
Mind

Or Age of Wonders elements:
Fire
Air
Earth
Water
Life
Death
Cosmos

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 04:12 AM
Why limit yourself with seven? I'd go with n+1, where n is the number of protons in the nuclei.

Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 04:12 AM
Thank you bag of holding. Useful as always. I might go with Sun/Shadow, as I haven't decided if there is a moon or not in the setting.

Re: Ninjas

Seven is a significant number, due to connections with schools of magic. I'm messing around with Paizo's sins/dragons/schools of magic thing.



Fire
Air
Earth
Water
Soul
Body
Mind

That would be amusing for a BESM game.

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 04:15 AM
I thought as much. Are you going to assign each element to a school, or be assigning spells to elements??

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-28, 04:17 AM
I'm glad to be of help.

Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 04:18 AM
Spells to elements. Using BESM, there is no need to use schools in addition to the elements.

banjo1985
2008-02-28, 04:18 AM
You could have Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Wood, Light and Darkness. Wood is pushing it a bit, but it's an element they use in Exalted.

Dervag
2008-02-28, 04:20 AM
One of the elements should be Surprise.

While this is partly a Pratchett homage, I think it actually makes some sense. If you're going to try to break the universe up into abstract symbolic elements, you need each of them to be something that is clearly not made up of one of the others.

Which creates problems. For instance, if you use fire as an element, using light as an element is getting a little close.


I'll make my list. Note that when I capitalize a noun, I'm using the element- for instance, elemental Earth is not going to be the same as dirt or sandstone or marble.

Thinking about it myself, I'd go for the four classical Greek elements:

-Earth
-Water
-Fire
-Air

Then I'd tack on the less well-known two classical Greek principles (the ones that govern the ways the elements interact:

-Love
-Hate

Note that these are themselves translations of philosophical concepts. "Love" is a force that makes everything in the universe tend to accumulate into a homogeneous mass; "Hate" is a force that makes everything in the universe tend to spread out into discrete chunks of single elements. You can get more on this by reading the fragments of the Greek pre-Socratic philosopher Empedocles, who was one of the chief figures responsible for spreading the idea of the four classical elements in Greek culture.

It might make more sense to pick new names for them, because in English "love" and "hate" have emotional overtones.

And then the seventh element is

-Surprise.

Things continue to happen because of Surprise; in the absence of the element Surprise there is no change. The difference between a stable thing and an unstable thing is the amount of Surprise those things contain.

Funkyodor
2008-02-28, 04:37 AM
I'm thinking a little outside maybe

Air
Earth
Fire
Water
Positive Energy (or adding energy to something)
Negative Energy (or removing energy from something)
Time

Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 04:42 AM
Love = ? Gravity, Magnetism
Hate = ?
Surprise = Chaos (that one was easy)

For what it is worth, elements are not so much a matter of form, but a source of magic. The world isn't so much composed of 7 elements, as much as magic falls under the purview of the 7 elements. So I'm looking more for elements of magic, rather than elements of being or form.

Dallas-Dakota
2008-02-28, 05:03 AM
7 elements :
Water
Earth
Fire
Air.
Darkness.
Light.(Also known as heaven)
Time(also known as void and consciousness)

Skjaldbakka
2008-02-28, 05:11 AM
In relation to your discussion earlier about elements needing to not have overlap, it is relevant to note that in the setting, the dominant religion is, in fact, wrong. There are more than the seven elements that affect the world. However, there are self-proclaimed avatars of the 7 elements that are active in the world, and rigorously support their worldviews (and methods of using magic), and brutally put down those in opposition to them.

So having flaws built into the system like that might be worth pursuing.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-28, 05:25 AM
You could have Chaos/Strange/Change (basically the same thing) and conversely, some kind of Ordery thing.

Blood is a stretch, but might be doable

Magic itself could be an element.

Shadow

Entropy

Danger

Zincorium
2008-02-28, 05:45 AM
If you're looking at including the positive/negative as elements, the Planescape universe has the outlands lying at the center of the six other official planes.

Balance, maybe? Void would be another good choice.

Premier
2008-02-28, 05:56 AM
Since we're listing various fictional systems from games and the like as well, here's the one used by the Dominions games:

- The usual four: Earth, Air, Water, Fire

- Nature (/Life) - most clearly present in verdant groves, deep forests and the like

- Death

- Astral - the games strongly suggest that it comes from the stars.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-28, 05:57 AM
Play Final Fantasy - they have dozens of elements, including poison, gravity and spirit.

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-28, 06:32 AM
It's kinda similar to what others have already said but Legacy of Kain: Defiance uses the classic 4 plus Darkness, Light and Spirit.


Alternatively:

Earth/Stone
Plant/Forest
Beast
Water/Ocean
Sky/Heavens(/Wind?)
Fire(/Metal?)
Dark/Shadow

I thought of these by not trying to be philosophical, instead just listing the things that the primitive precursors of your setting are going to see and name when they look around them.

Rutee
2008-02-28, 06:47 AM
I'd just go with Taoism, and Bagua;

Heaven, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth, Thunder, Fire, Lake.

Yes, that is indeed 8. I would probably off Lake over Mountain..

Maryring
2008-02-28, 06:51 AM
I don't have much time, but these are seven elements I've been using sometime.

Time
Space
Destiny/Fate
Mind/Mentality
Spirit/Spirituality
Emotions
Body (the physical)

The first three determines existance. The last four determines life.

Tengu
2008-02-28, 06:52 AM
I'd just go with Taoism, and Bagua;

Heaven, Wind, Water, Mountain, Earth, Thunder, Fire, Lake.

Yes, that is indeed 8. I would probably off Lake over Mountain..

What's the difference between Lake and Water anyway? One is for stale water while the other is for running one?

Rad
2008-02-28, 07:05 AM
Time is good, but I don't think that it would be easy to deal with that mechanically.
Mind and Soul should not be separated in an oriental setting.
I propose Mana as the 7th element. Mana is everywhere and it is the raw material of all magic, pushing the other 6 elements around as well as itself. Beings and objects that completely lack mana cannot do or be afected by magic at all.

Fire
Air
Water
Earth (including body, metal)
Life (Consciousness, Mind, Wood, Light, Quintessence, etc.)
Void (Death, Darkness, etc.)
Mana (magic)

Tengu
2008-02-28, 07:07 AM
Time is good, but I don't think that it would be easy to deal with that mechanically.
Mind and Soul should not be separated in an oriental setting.
I propose Mana as the 7th element. Mana is everywhere and it is the raw material of all magic, pushing the other 6 elements around as well as itself. Beings and objects that completely lack mana cannot do or be afected by magic at all.

Fire
Air
Water
Earth (including body, metal)
Life (Consciousness, Mind, Wood, Light, Quintessence, etc.)
Void (Death, Darkness, etc.)
Mana (magic)

That's basically Age of Wonders' system. Ah, Age of Wonders (especially 2), such wonderful, climatic and underappreciated strategy games...

GutterRunner
2008-02-28, 07:08 AM
Ledgend of the 5 Rings Elements

5 Rings:
(as well as their elemental traits, these 4 can be broken down into active/passive defensive/offensive based upon the stats that make them up.)

Earth (passive defensive )
Fire ( active offensive )
Air ( active defensive )
Water ( passive offensive )


Void (Basically spirit, you use this for meditation and for doing extra well on stuff)

Other Elements (based on things that have dragons or oracles)

Thunder (element of heroes)

Shadow (evil, not necessirily taint. Also the lying darkness which wants to turn the world to nothing, and ninjas)

Jade ( resistance to taint, thwarting evil )
Obsidian ( inverse of taint, something that has become tainted and evil )

Thanatos 51-50
2008-02-28, 07:09 AM
Hrum...

North: Earth
East: Air
South: Fire
West: Water
Above: Light
Below: Dark
Within: Spirit/Soul
Without: Body

Okay, so thats eight, andd I'm repeating some people.

GutterRunner
2008-02-28, 07:37 AM
Warhammer World Battle Magic Schools (8):

Fire / Bright
Light / White
Life / Jade
Beasts / Amber
Shadow / Grey
Heavens / Celestial (Lightning as well as the stars)
Death / Amethyst
Metal / Gold

More based on colours than elements, but you are kinda looking for magical groups.

WoW elemental primals (7):
Earth, Fire, Air, Water, Life, Shadow, Mana


Another idea, how about:

Earth, Fire, Air, Water,
Thunder/Lightning
Nature, Man (Humankind)

Green and Red
2008-02-28, 07:50 AM
Im propably not adding much new, but...

Fire, Water, earth, air/wind are the 4 classics almost everywhere, you hardly get around that. other things possible are pseudo-elements (stuff like, wood, metal, lightning, ice ... whatever fits in your settings.) Then theres of course light/positive and darkness/negative(which dosent necessaryly has to equal evil) which propably fit best if they are both added . Also interesting to think about are time and (i think here i add something) space, wich make for interesting stuff (and can be combined into one if they are to specific/powerful/whatever).

So i would do something like
Fire
Water
Earth
Air/wind
Light
Shadow/darkness
Space/time

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 08:00 AM
I feel that lightning is an anachronistic element, and doesn't deserve element status. I think the only reason it gets it is because... it's electricity or something. But that'd be like making gravitons or photons or something an elements.

Dervag
2008-02-28, 08:04 AM
Love = ? Gravity, Magnetism
Hate = ?
Surprise = Chaos (that one was easy)Magnetism is actually lousy at making things stick together; it's just convenient because we can make magnets where we can't make convenient objects that stick together by gravity (without being inconveniently large), or by electric charge (which leads to people getting zapped).

Remember, the Greeks tended to believe that objects would "naturally" sort themselves out in certain ways because of innate tendencies. The duality between 'love' and 'hate' was part of that.

And I suppose you could represent surprise as chaos, but I don't think it should be associated with the Chaotic alignment. Or if it should be, we need to come up with something else, because elements shouldn't have intrinsic alignments.


For what it is worth, elements are not so much a matter of form, but a source of magic. The world isn't so much composed of 7 elements, as much as magic falls under the purview of the 7 elements. So I'm looking more for elements of magic, rather than elements of being or form.In that case, things like earth and water are largely pointless, and I'm going to have to think a lot harder.

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 08:12 AM
What about an "undoing force"? Something like entropy- stuff falls apart, decays.


Oooooh, make a heptagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptagram)!

Connect the 7 points of your seven elements to all other possible points they can connect with. Each node represents an element, and the ones that lie tangentially and opposite it are related and opposing elements, respectively. Sort of like a color wheel.

So death would be opposite life, yet tangent entropy. Entropy would be tangent life, and opposite order, which in turn would yadda yadda yadda.

ghost_warlock
2008-02-28, 08:28 AM
You could use the current elemental groundwork already laid down in 3.5 with some expansion.

Air/Sonic
Earth
Fire
Water
Positive Energy (Light)
Negative Energy (Darkness/Shadow)
Anima/Spirit (particularly of note in shamanistic cosmologies)

Traditionally, cosmology says that all creatures native to the material plane contain some concentration of all the elements, whereas outsiders may be composed mostly of only a few and some extreme examples may be composed of only one pure element.

I would exclude thought/mind as an element because of the simple fact that not all beings/components of the material plane have/are capable of thought. But since the whole elemental thing is pretty abstract anyway...eh.

As for death as an element...it would simply be the absence of Anima in this setup.

GutterRunner
2008-02-28, 08:42 AM
Oh, basing it on the D&D energy types rather than elements could be good, and add positive and negative energy too:

Fire
Cold
Acid
Electric
Sonic
Life/Light
Death/Darkness

Gives you Pyromancers and Necromancers, as well as Electromancers and Corodomancers :smallsmile:

Manga Shoggoth
2008-02-28, 09:07 AM
What about an "undoing force"? Something like entropy- stuff falls apart, decays.


Oooooh, make a heptagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptagram)!

Connect the 7 points of your seven elements to all other possible points they can connect with. Each node represents an element, and the ones that lie tangentially and opposite it are related and opposing elements, respectively. Sort of like a color wheel.

So death would be opposite life, yet tangent entropy. Entropy would be tangent life, and opposite order, which in turn would yadda yadda yadda.


Better yet, try a hexagon with a center point. Then the opposing items are those directly opposite, and you can have that cunning little seventh element hiding in the middle. The reasons for this are left to the imagination, but my initial stab would be some form of unifying (or dividing) element.

Thus:



Fire Earth


Dark Void Light


Air Water


(The elements were chosen arbitarily - any combination can be used)

Rendel Nep
2008-02-28, 09:10 AM
I don't know why but I think there should be lint.

TheDarkOne
2008-02-28, 10:19 AM
Earth, air, fire, water, heart, custard, and Plutonium.

Telonius
2008-02-28, 10:25 AM
You could go with a Sandman theme.

Dream
Death
Desire
Destiny
Destruction
Despair
Delirium

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-28, 10:29 AM
1: Fire
2: Earth
3: Wind
4: Soul
5: Ice
6: Lightning
7: Water

My personal favorites: Fire opposes Water and Ice, Lightning opposes Earth and Ice, Ice opposes Fire and Earth, Earth opposes Lightning and Ice, Water opposes Wind and Fire, Wind opposes Water and Earth.

Soul opposes nothing and encompasses everything.

Soul represents the duality of light and dark, life and death, etc.

Rutee
2008-02-28, 11:06 AM
What's the difference between Lake and Water anyway? One is for stale water while the other is for running one?

Water is Danger, The Moon, and the Abyss; Lake is Stagnancy, Joy, and Satisfaction.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-28, 12:13 PM
I believe several months ago I had mentioned something about a geometric form of magic theory where each face of a box would be some 'element' or source of magical energy (Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Creation(light,life), Destruction(entropy, negative energy)). Spells could be designed (and wizards could specialize in) the raw elemental stuff, focusing on one face. This was easy and cheap, but very focused in what the spells could do (Fire: produce flame). You could also focus on an edge of the 'magic box' where you could combine two adjacent 'faces' to get more versatility. There are twelve edges on a box so you could get Earth/Water (Tr. Rock to mud) or Earth/Fire (lava) effects or even Earth/Life (Plant growth). Then you also have 8 corners (three elements each). So, in that model, you could have eight schools with access to 3 elements each and thus rebuild/reclassify each existing spell. For example, divination may be on the corner of creation/fire/air because they create new thoughts revealed through the light of fire but in an ephermal nature of air (thoughts). Meanwhile enchantment (charm) would be on the corner of creation/water/air because rather than illuminating thoughts, it uses the mutable nature of water to change people's thoughts (charm and dominate). Enchanting objects would probably fall onto the Earth/Creation/Water nexus since it creates a physical change in an object.

I think you will find it VERY difficult to assign elements to schools because the schools were not created with sources in mind but rather the effects or means to generate the magic. So any spell using one of the basic elements is going to be either conjuration or evocation. The end result is a total rework of the magic system.

Kol Korran
2008-02-28, 12:28 PM
hmmmmm, i have no idea of my own that hadn't been added here in this version or another. but soem time ago, while searching for original campaigns and settings, i came upon a remarkable work called "the 6 elements"- it's a homebrewed game world and system (based on DnD 3.5, but with major an entirely different magic system, and a few other impressive concepts).
a mjor feature in this setting are the 6 elements, that have nothign to do with fire, earth, bla bla... they are built upon each other (except ofr the last), and actually denote what an object/ person/ place ect IS, and also the relations and transitions between elements.
you probably won't adapt the entire sytem, but you can read more (and download, if my memory servs me right) from
http://www.the6elements.com/introduction/
a realy unique, and well done concept. (not just the elements, but quite a few other ideas). hoep it will inspire

DeathQuaker
2008-02-28, 12:35 PM
I'd start with Chinese

metal
wood
fire
water
earth

The add "Air/Wind" from the Western.

For the 7th, I'd go with one of the esoteric ones, of which there are many different words for which all more or less describe similar things... Spirit, Quintessence, Soul, Heaven, Void, and, yes, Heart

But the various other suggestions also all sound good to me.

The other things is, if, say, you are assigning elements to your players, check out their character ideas and assign elements from various lists that suit the characters best. I did this once and I think ended up with Fire, Air/Electricity; Water/Ice; Earth/Acid; Shadow; and Mind/Dream.

Or, if you want to go a silly route, go with Hydrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Gold, Silver, Iron, Lead, or whatever. :smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 12:39 PM
Just imagine how much more powerful captain planet would've been...

...

What? :smalltongue:

Eran of Arcadia
2008-02-28, 12:39 PM
The Kingdom of Loathing 5:

Hot
Spooky
Cold
Sleaze
Stench

And the "miscellaneous" from the same game:

Shadow
Bad Spelling

Artanis
2008-02-28, 12:46 PM
Sort of a variation of Death Quaker's idea, if you want to go with entirely classical elements, you could use:

Earth
Air
Fire
Water
Metal
Wood
Aether

The first four are Greek (among others), and Metal and Wood are Chinese. Aether is found in the Greco-Roman, Buddhist, and Hindu systems, and the closest definition that I can come up with for it is a sort of "mind" or "spirit". If you don't like Aether, you can replace it with Void, which I think is Japanese and/or Chinese.

streakster
2008-02-28, 12:49 PM
Life
Death
Fate ( Guided Change, Order, diviniation)
Chance (Unguided Change, Chaos)
Cosmos (Balance, Universal)
Mind (Logic, Telekinesis, Telepathy. etc)
Heart (Emotions, Geas, etc)

That's different, at least.

Jukashi
2008-02-28, 12:51 PM
In Exalted, the different "realities" have different elements. The earth-like Creation has the classical four (plus wood), while the Underworld uses deathly analogues (Pyreflame, Blood, Salt, Jade and Prayer) and the mechanical world of Autocthon uses Metal, Lightning, Steam, Crystal, Oil and Smoke. There's also the hellish Malfeas, but the only element revealed there is Vitriol.

You could also go with the colour-based model used in the Skies of Arcadia video game, which combines wind and water magic into "Blue" moonstones, with the rest being Red (fire), Yellow (lightning/storms), Green (healing, fertility), Purple (ice, frost), Silver (some strange life/death/balance thing) and possibly Black (but no idea what it did; possibly gravity, or chaos) moonstones.

Seven classical elements, though? I assume you want something similar to an earth-like world. You could try:

Earth (i.e. stone and soil)
Wind
Fire
Frost (coldness, ice, etc.)
Lightning (Storms, also machines)
Water
Wood (not just trees, but also related to all sorts of plants and living things)

Draz74
2008-02-28, 01:11 PM
I don't know why but I think there should be lint.

And duct tape.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-28, 01:20 PM
And duct tape.

That's included under light/dark lifestream mechanic. It has a light side, a dark side and holds the universe together.

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-02-28, 01:29 PM
Come on, folks! No World of Darkness fans here? :smallbiggrin:

7 Elements:

Mind
Matter
Forces
Time
Entropy
Prime
Life

(EDIT)
Ooops... forgot Correspondence. Never mind! :smalleek:
(EDIT 2)
And... um... Spirit.

*cough*

I think I'll just sit the rest of this out. :smallfrown:

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 01:31 PM
Prime 2 Time 2 = The Sitcom Spell.

*rimshot*

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-28, 01:36 PM
Sorry to plug something that I made myself, but the seven elements in alchemy are always nifty -

Sun/gold, Moon/silver, Mercury/quicksilver, Venus/copper, Mars/iron, Jupiter/tin, Saturn/lead.

It might seem a bit same-y, but it's historical, sans shoe-horning, and there's a wealth of fascinating lore behind it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-28, 01:48 PM
Air: All spells that control the weather (naturally), all cold spells, all divinations.
Water: All shapechanging effects, all acid spells, all spells that control the water, enchantments
Earth: All growth/strength spells, all wood/animal-related spells, all object creation/transmutation spells, nature's ally spells, all druid healing spells, earth-related spells.
Fire: All fire/lightning spells, all demon-related spells.
Dark: Darkness, Evil and Necromancy spells.
Light: Light, Restoration, Healing, protection from physical danger and evil.
Astral: Spells that alter spells (e.g. dispel), force spells, protection from magic, spells that alter time and reality.

Coplantor
2008-02-28, 01:49 PM
You can go with the typical 4 plus life/death, light/darkness, virtue/bane, body/mind, law/chaos and you need another one. Consider this: Destruction as in "nothing is destroyed, everything changes or transforms" using destrucrtion as a way to change from one element to the other, from the ashes of one element another element is born, you can even build a reincarnation concept for your world around this.

Squash Monster
2008-02-28, 05:23 PM
Fire
Rock
Water
Air
Paper
Sponge
Scissors

http://www.umop.com/rps7.htm

(Or, for a slightly more serious version based on that: Fire, Rock, Water, Air, Wood, Flesh, Metal)

BRC
2008-02-28, 05:26 PM
You could do the Base Elements
Earth Air Fire Water
Then the three Mental elements.
Logos, Pathos, Ethos.

Glyphic
2008-02-28, 05:57 PM
....



Surprise!

Draco Ignifer
2008-02-29, 10:49 AM
Heaven.
Earth.
Water.

Creation.
Destruction.
Stasis.

Soul.

Arranged in a double triangle. Stasis, Heaven, Destruction, Water, Creation, Earth. Soul in the center.

VanBuren
2008-03-01, 04:17 AM
Earth
Fire
Lightning
Water
Wind
Soul
Body

Here you could possibly have (as just an idea out of the blue) Body as the physical, Soul as the spiritual, and the other 5 elements as the medium that links them.