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Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 08:01 AM
http://ddxp.tumblr.com/

It's stickied over at ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220015), though I suspect as the day goes on ENWorld iiiiisssssss gooooooiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggg tooooooooooooooo slllooooooooooooooooowwwwwww doooooooowwwwwwwwnn.

hamlet
2008-02-28, 08:14 AM
http://ddxp.tumblr.com/

It's stickied over at ENWorld (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220015), though I suspect as the day goes on ENWorld iiiiisssssss gooooooiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggg tooooooooooooooo slllooooooooooooooooowwwwwww doooooooowwwwwwwwnn.

For those of us behind fun fun firewalls at the office, maybe you could give us the gist of it?

Muyten
2008-02-28, 08:30 AM
No real news yet.
R&D seminar finishes at noon. (I'm not sure about the timezone but I'm guessing in something like 4-5 hours) after which I'm hoping there will be more info.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 08:49 AM
For those of us behind fun fun firewalls at the office, maybe you could give us the gist of it?

I am fairly certain he is EST (-5 GMT for all you people outside of the Red, White and Blue Curtain); he was leaving a few minutes ago.

The actual R&D conference runs from 1000 EST to 1200 EST. He will be making updates as often as he can. from 1300 to 1800 (that's 1pm to 6pm) he is playin "Scalegloom Hall" the first public 4e, Living Forgotten Realms, RPGA adventure. He will try to get a pic of the Character Sheet posted. (He is posting via iPhone)

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 10:04 AM
Update for the blocked: He's put up a screenshot of the 4e info shot; it's a crappy image and I can't make out too much - it really doesn't look like too much more than we already have...

If anyone can zoom and clean up the image to make out details... let us know your findings.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 10:31 AM
Couple more updates. Screw 4.5, we're going to have 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc every year with anew PHB with new classes and stuff.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 10:33 AM
I thought this was supposed to be stuff we didn't expect.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 10:42 AM
New PHB -every- year? As long as my version 4.1 is compatible with billy's 4.6... I'm cool with it.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 10:48 AM
So far, not that helpful. I can't make out the details of the image either, even messing around with in Adobe. Best I can make out are section titles and as nice as it is to see that 'saving throws are straightforward' since I can't read the rest of the text I have no idea why.

Edit: Just saw the New PBH every year thing... if it's just an update I'm cool, although if there is eratta I'd like to see it available free online, as it is now (mostly). If it involves signifigant system revisions and I have to pay for it, then I'm ticked.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 10:48 AM
Some quotes on stuff due in 2008.


Andy Collins Phb eight races and eight classes. Templates for monsters such as liches and fire scions. 500 monsters in the monster manual. Tome of treasures. September. Hundreds of items. Meant for both players and dms. Martial Power. October. For fighters rangers rogues and warlords. Draconomicon. November. Three new chromatic dragons. Manual of the planes. December.


Paragon level adventures in oct and December. Dt7 fame of forgotten gods. Halls of the giant kings. Streets of shadow. Urban theme dungeon tiles. Dm screen very thick. Like a monopoly board. Starter set. November. How will it be different than other sets. No minis. Forgotten realms in august. Reader friendly. Less encyclopedia more quick reference. Sept. FR players book in sept. Sword Mage class in that book. FR1. Forgotten realms adventure. Eberron in 2009. June on dd insider will have a warforged guide. Other campaign settings including old favorites. Two poster maps in the mini starter set. July. Against the giants. Dragons giants titans. Nov. Demonweb. They showed a firegiant mini. Pic forthcoming.


I'm very interested in the updated "Against the Giants." I never played any D&D before 3.5, but I did pick up the original module to try to convert it at some point. Turns out WotC beat me to it.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 10:48 AM
New PHB -every- year? As long as my version 4.1 is compatible with billy's 4.6... I'm cool with it.

I think that rather than lumping things into 'Complete Blah" they're doing PHB2, PHB3 instead, so they don't have to limit the classes to one 'type'. At least that's my guess about that.

valadil
2008-02-28, 10:50 AM
New PHB every year is the worst thing I've heard about 4ed so far. It could work if they somehow keep you up to date electronically. Like, owning a PHB.08 entitles you to ebooks of PHB.09, PHB.10, etc, so long as you register your book.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 10:52 AM
I think that rather than lumping things into 'Complete Blah" they're doing PHB2, PHB3 instead, so they don't have to limit the classes to one 'type'. At least that's my guess about that.

That wouldnt be bad... If it was just "more rules" to tack onto your base... but redoing it would make me a sad cleric.

Edit: Oh... and Warlord class? Interesting.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 10:55 AM
New PHB every year is the worst thing I've heard about 4ed so far. It could work if they somehow keep you up to date electronically. Like, owning a PHB.08 entitles you to ebooks of PHB.09, PHB.10, etc, so long as you register your book.Well, at least they aren't charging you use the online serv...

L O L

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 10:56 AM
Also, here are the headings from that "one-sheet" that he posted as an image (http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP35yzbqj1mB0wW2AU_400.jpg) (as far as I can make them out). It looks like it's just the back side, though.

7. Attack!

8. Action points give you [an extra action?].

9. Movement is quick and easy.

10. Saving throws are straightforward.

11. Durations are easy to manage.

12. Reach (usually) isn't as threatening

13. A trio of "C" rules you might want to know.

-Combat Advantage
-[Cover?]
-Charging



Edit: Oh... and Warlord class? Interesting.

We've known about that for a while. Sort of like a bard, but not. It's a martial leader that can fight but also buffs and heals and stuff. Basically, it's like the marshal, but hopefully good this time..

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 10:57 AM
Typical. The one aspect of Eberron I don't like, and they make it core. :smallmad:

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 10:58 AM
I think that rather than lumping things into 'Complete Blah" they're doing PHB2, PHB3 instead, so they don't have to limit the classes to one 'type'. At least that's my guess about that.

I rather hope so but the mention of a 'martial power' title makes me skeptical that is the case. If the new PHB's are like the 3.5 PHB2 and 3.5 DMG2 I'll be ok with that, since it would be new material. It's the 'updated classes' part of that sentence that worries me. Makes me think that they might be tweaking the base classes every year, which would be really annoying.

Darth Mario
2008-02-28, 10:59 AM
The PHB thing really depends if the new editions are closer to the difference between 3.5's PHB and 3.5's PHB2, or 3.0's PHB and 3.5's PHB.

If they're updating the system every year, I'll go play GURPS or something, thank you. If it's just new material like PHB2 was, that I'm totally in to.

Edit: Ninja'd!

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 11:02 AM
We've known about that for a while. Sort of like a bard, but not. It's a martial leader that can fight but also buffs and heals and stuff. Basically, it's like the marshal, but hopefully good this time..

Oh. Well. Color me uniformed. :smallredface:

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 11:03 AM
For the "new and updated" class part, I'd imagine that it'll not be revamps or errata of old classes. Instead, it'll probably just be new paragon paths and epic paths (they have those, right?).

I mean, they talked a lot about those for a while, but in the Rogue preview recently we only heard about two "paths" for rogues to take (though they weren't mentioned as paragon paths, per se). I imagine the new PHBs will be some new classes (a la PHB2 3.5), but it'll also have new "kits" for old classes. Paladin may start with mounted charger and healer kits, but may grab a serene warrior "kit" in the PHB2. Or something like that.

EDIT: Stuff about the D&D Insider.


Online rules database. Character visualizer. Character sheet online. Dnd game table. Limited bonus tiles and virtual minis. Virtual minis non random microtransactions. No tie between physical and virtual tiles. Ebooks. No ebooks. Rule database instead. PDFs will be available for cost.

E-adventures online adventures with tiles and minis. Lots of stuff…how much… 24 hour pass to play for players who do not subscribe. Samples and trials available. Online character sheet. Editable PDF for free. 2d tile mapper available for free. Price…14.95 monthly, 12.95 six months, 9.95 yearly.

Most interesting parts (to me) bolded. The pass for non-subscribers is great and forces me to award them a cookie for thinking about how many people just won't do it. The samples and trials the same. For the price, I assume that means $14.95 if you pay one month at a time, $12.95/month if you do 6 months at a time, and only $9.95/month if you pay for a year at a time. That seems sort of steep to me, but I'm also very cheap. :smallwink:

Izar Goldbranch
2008-02-28, 11:05 AM
Oh. Well. Color me uniformed. :smallredface:

We're used to that, Sam :p

In all seriousness, my first reaction to the "new PHB every year" was to grab a pitchfork and storm WOTC headquarters, but I will withhold judgement until I hear more.

A one line statement in a blog, posted on the fly, could be interpreted in many ways.

Personally, I don't think WOTC is dumb enough to do the 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 stuff, especially after the 3.0/3.5 fiasco and their insistence that the reason they were calling it 4e was to assure players they werent going to do sub editions - that they'd learned from their mistake.

I hope its more of a PHB2, PHB3 thing.

Jokes
2008-02-28, 11:14 AM
E-adventures online adventures with tiles and minis. Lots of stuff…how much… 24 hour pass to play for players who do not subscribe. Samples and trials available. Online character sheet. Editable PDF for free. 2d tile mapper available for free. Price…14.95 monthly, 12.95 six months, 9.95 yearly

It gets cheaper the longer you subscribe? :smallconfused: Must mean $9.95/month if you subscribe for a year... I want to see exactly what the subscription gets for that kind of cash.

I would be more than happy with one new phb per year rather than something like the complete X series.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 11:15 AM
Could someone with more wisdom than I inform me of the 8 races and 8 classes (if they are known) ... I apparently missed out by.. ya know... not buying the preview books.

UMDPenguin
2008-02-28, 11:17 AM
i'm sitting here at work bored out of my skull. i'm really considering taking the afternoon off and heading over there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 11:18 AM
Elves, humans, dwarves, tieflings, dragonborn, halflings(the only half in the PHB), and 2 others I don't remember.

Duke of URL
2008-02-28, 11:20 AM
Echoing agreement to the hope that the yearly PHB will be mostly new material, and that any updates to existing material is basically just incorporating errata, and not actually changing things.

Jokes
2008-02-28, 11:21 AM
Public beta of insider in april
June 21 game day. Free tile mini and adventure. 1 second ago


What a time to hit refresh :smallamused:

Still aways away... Is that a freebie if we subscribe on that day? And then WOTC are all like "Gotcha!" leap out of the bushes, grab you wallet and run back to the coast.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 11:22 AM
I would be more than happy with one new phb per year rather than something like the complete X series.

I suspect from the mentions of some of the other titles that we are going to get both. Why wouldn't we anyway? WotC can make more money that way. I'd do it if I were in their shoes.

Consider it this way, in 3.5 they published a bunch of books with other mechanics or updated mechanics. Then they put out the RC. They scatter shot magical items across various books then put out the MIC. I have a suspicion that these later PHBs might be partially collection style books like those two with a little bit of truly new stuff to keep us all from throwing a fit.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-28, 11:22 AM
Elves, humans, dwarves, tieflings, dragonborn, halflings(the only half in the PHB), and 2 others I don't remember.

Orc? Eladrin?

Izar Goldbranch
2008-02-28, 11:24 AM
Elves, humans, dwarves, tieflings, dragonborn, halflings(the only half in the PHB), and 2 others I don't remember.


Humans

Dwarves

Elves

Eladrin

Dragonborn

Halflings

Tieflings

and..er...was there another "definite" one they mentioned?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 11:27 AM
Uh, Eldarin? What? :smallconfused:

Morty
2008-02-28, 11:27 AM
Maybe half-elves? Although I'm personally betting on some unexpected race they've been keeping hidden in their sleeve all along.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 11:27 AM
and..er...was there another "definite" one they mentioned?

I know they talked about a group of evil-ish humanoids serving the Raven Queen in the Shadowfell, but I don't think it's a player race. I can't remember if it's in R&C or W&M.

If it's not that, I think they haven't actually released the identity of this "mystery race."


Uh, Eldarin? What? :smallconfused:

They're sort of the 4E high elves. Years ago, the elf race was split in twain, with the Eladrin staying in the Feywild (the new plane of, you guessed it, Fey stuff) and focusing on arcane arts, while the Elves moved to the Material Plane and lived in forests.

So now, instead of schizophrenic elves not knowing whether they're tree-hugging nature warriors or book-loving arcane masters, there are just two different races with a common ancestry.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 11:27 AM
Action points. Characters start with one and gain one every two battles. They are used to add a standard action to a turn. There are no full round actions

Oh dear. This is very likley to drive me insane.:smallfrown:

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 11:28 AM
Warforged is core now isn't it?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 11:29 AM
I thought they were trashing per-day abilities because they force the DMs encounter schedule if he wants to keep it balanced.

Edit:Elves, humans, dwarves, tieflings, dragonborn, halflings, orcs, and eldarin, apparently.

Morty
2008-02-28, 11:31 AM
Orcs are mentioned as a monster race here and there, so I don't think they're core.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 11:33 AM
Orcs are mentioned as a monster race somewhere, so I don't think they're core.

Yeah, I had been under the impression they were going to be a monster race. If they are a PC race, I'll be happy about it, but also surprised.

Edit:


The yearly phb will ne like the current phb 2. Its a suppliment not a replacement.

Thank G-d.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 11:36 AM
Correction
The yearly phb will ne like the current phb 2. Its a suppliment not a replacement. 2 seconds ago
Phew. filler

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 11:37 AM
I doubt Orcs will be a PC race (for a while, anyway). They've already got the Dragonborn and Tiefling as "monsterish" races, so there's no real need for them (realistically) to put another one in the first PHB. Now, eventually I'd love to see Orcs and (specifically) Half-Orcs, but I don't think it'll be until either MM (since some PC races, like the Gnome, will be there) or maybe PHB 4.2 (or whatever they'll call it).

Tren
2008-02-28, 11:40 AM
The evil race in the Shadowfell is the Shadar kai, and they're trying to make them the new githyanki as far as an iconic popular monster race.

As for the 8th race I'm fairly certain it's half-elf. They talked about running out of time and dropping the half-elf article from R&C, but they implied heavily that they were the 8th race. Also they're included in the artwork in the front inside cover in R&C.

Jokes
2008-02-28, 11:44 AM
Figures, the only reason they'd need to replace the PHB would be if they stuffed up the rules, which they don't know they have done yet.

EDIT: Oh, and to make more money of course.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 11:49 AM
Alright, new pictures of minis are out. Here they are.

Fire Giant (looks awesome)
http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP35z3o50ydxDe9ifw_400.jpg

Boneclaw (hooray for my favorite Undead!)
http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP35z3sgmkZxBnJ2hW_400.jpg

Flaming Skeleton (not a good picture)
http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP35z3tva2BihC8jQR_400.jpg

DeathQuaker
2008-02-28, 11:56 AM
Most interesting parts (to me) bolded. The pass for non-subscribers is great and forces me to award them a cookie for thinking about how many people just won't do it. The samples and trials the same. For the price, I assume that means $14.95 if you pay one month at a time, $12.95/month if you do 6 months at a time, and only $9.95/month if you pay for a year at a time. That seems sort of steep to me, but I'm also very cheap. :smallwink:

No, you don't seem that cheap to me. At the cheapest, you're paying $120 A YEAR for character generator software, GM tools, and a number of other goodies. That is a fair chunk of change. Compare to say, your core rulebooks: if they're $40 each, you pay $120 ONCE, ever, and can use them until the binding breaks (and beyond that if you're a dab hand with cardboard and ducttape).

While I'd imagine the Insider tools accessible are nice thing to have, I don't think I'd pay $120 for them in one go, let alone every year--especially when now I can download similarly functional, if probably less shiny, items for free.

Now, I know that's also folding in some kind of "subscription" service that provides the supposed equivlent to Dungeon and Dragon magazine (except you can't take it with you on the bus to read without high tech tools and network access). I don't know how much a subscription to Dungeon and/or Dragon cost and if it's comparable.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 12:05 PM
No, you don't seem that cheap to me.

Yeah, maybe, but I still feel like penny-pincher, with some people I know regularly pay for WoW, Xbox Live, and other MMOs, all of which cost money per month. I can't handle that - Xbox Live is relatively cheap, but it still kills me when I pay for it in months I don't get to play much because of school work. The prices for D&D Insider might not seem that high to others, but they do to me because I just don't like to spend that much on something I'm not going to use all the time.

I probably won't be subscribing unless I get in on the Beta or a trial version and it's awesome. I mean, even with the added bonus of e-Dungeon and e-Dragon (or whatever it's going to be), I still can see paying that much when my groups play, at most, like once every three months. And online play wouldn't help, because it's mostly our lives, not distance, that keep us from playing.

EDIT: Here's the new cover of the PHB. I'm not sure I like it, but that could just be because I'm not sold on the Dragonborn yet.

http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP35z4ibycl5DuNUYd_400.jpg

Puggins
2008-02-28, 12:06 PM
No, you don't seem that cheap to me. At the cheapest, you're paying $120 A YEAR for character generator software, GM tools, and a number of other goodies. That is a fair chunk of change. Compare to say, your core rulebooks: if they're $40 each, you pay $120 ONCE, ever, and can use them until the binding breaks (and beyond that if you're a dab hand with cardboard and ducttape).

Now, I know that's also folding in some kind of "subscription" service that provides the supposed equivlent to Dungeon and Dragon magazine (except you can't take it with you on the bus to read without high tech tools and network access). I don't know how much a subscription to Dungeon and/or Dragon cost and if it's comparable.

It's actually quite competitive. Paying $120 for electronic content that's never going to go away does sound attractive, I've gotta say. Your old copies of Dungeon or Dragon might get lost or ruined, but you can always print new ones of these guys. Not sure if I'm gonna bite, but $9.95 is a reasonably price point. I was afraid it was going to be $14.95+, which would've been out of the question.

Scintillatus
2008-02-28, 12:09 PM
Hooray for the weak dollar.

Sucks for the Americans, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 12:13 PM
Arcane, Divine, and Martial HeroesNice to see the skillmonkeys get support. :smallannoyed:

Puggins
2008-02-28, 12:22 PM
Nice to see the skillmonkeys get support. :smallannoyed:

They're talking about "power sources" which is a silly way of describing the primary way characters achieve their abilities. In this case, "Martial" indicates extensive training and nonmagical preparation, which is the likely home of the skill monkey.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 12:30 PM
For those curious the sheet he took a picture of in now up on the WotC Site for download. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/news_20080228.zip)

valadil
2008-02-28, 12:39 PM
On a purely selfish note, the price of the online game table is a huge relief to me. I've been working on my own online table and I'd be pretty pissed if WotC trumped my effort and made their version free.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 12:41 PM
So we've roughly determined the 8 Races... anyone have any Idea on the classes?

Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, Warlord, Rogue, Paladin... and...

Barbarian? Ranger? Monk?

Jokes
2008-02-28, 12:43 PM
When you take an extended rest, your action points reset back to 1.

you can only spend one per encounter.

So you can't unleash the fury with 30 stored action points...

Izar Goldbranch
2008-02-28, 12:49 PM
So we've roughly determined the 8 Races... anyone have any Idea on the classes?

Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, Warlord, Rogue, Paladin... and...

Barbarian? Ranger? Monk?

We were discussing this at lunch.

With the Warlord, the Fighter and the Paladin as core classes, we're thinking #8 is the Ranger.

They need an archer type in there somewhere.

DeathQuaker
2008-02-28, 12:50 PM
It's actually quite competitive. Paying $120 for electronic content that's never going to go away does sound attractive, I've gotta say.

Payint $120 once, maybe, if the content is good. Per year is a little high for me. Maybe not for other people, but for me.

And books to me are always more permanent than electronics. I still have my AD&D books I bought when I was 12 years old (1988). I was just cleaning out my computer stuff and found a stack of 3.5" floppies I realized I had no way of getting the data off of, even if it was something I once valued.

There are online 'zines and the like I used to read as little as two years ago which have since gone down, never to be accessed again. When I did research on turn of the 20th century literature, I went to the library and was able to read magazines printed in the 1890s--falling apart a bit, but still readable and still easily accessible. You lose books and such, sure, but in my experience, less often than hard drives crash, disks break, and Internet servers die.

Maybe that's why I feel that it's not worth my money. To me it's something temporary and transient, not worth $120 a year ($600 for five years, if the site lasts that long, which is as long as D&D 3.5's been around).

Morty
2008-02-28, 12:53 PM
So we've roughly determined the 8 Races... anyone have any Idea on the classes?

Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Warlock, Warlord, Rogue, Paladin... and...

Barbarian? Ranger? Monk?

I think it's preety certain that the eight class is Ranger.
Also, bleh. Now PHB cover has a character of a race I'm sure to drop as soon as I start playing 4ed. Otherwise, it's not bad.
However, it looks like ridiculous unwieldy weapons and scantily-clad female spellcasters aren't gone. So it'll be true D&D no matter what they do to the rules.:smallwink:

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 12:54 PM
Yeah, after reading the preview doc... it's definatley Ranger.

blacksabre
2008-02-28, 12:56 PM
So as I read:

Reach (usually) isn’t as threatening.
Reach (possessed by some monsters and weapons) is only
“active” on the attacker’s turn. Otherwise, attackers with reach
function just like those without reach. This is usually most
relevant when determining the area a character or monster
threatens.
TIP: Watch out for the few creatures with threatening
reach – they can threaten more than just squares adjacent to
them.

I'm reading this as no more Attacks of Oppurtunity with reach Weapons..

so much for my enlarged, glaive wielding, combat reflexed, power attacking, raging barbarain half giant...30% of his kills happens when its not his comabt turn..

Artanis
2008-02-28, 12:57 PM
We were discussing this at lunch.

With the Warlord, the Fighter and the Paladin as core classes, we're thinking #8 is the Ranger.

They need an archer type in there somewhere.
I'm pretty sure it's the Ranger. I'm trying to load up ENWorld to get a confirmation link, but as somebody predicted earlier in the thread, it's...well...yeah.


Edit: Geez, I take two minutes to see if ENWorld is up, and I get three ninjas :smallfrown:

tresson
2008-02-28, 12:58 PM
Character sheet is up. (http://ddxp.tumblr.com/)

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 01:02 PM
[B]Reach (usually) isn’t as threatening.

This is bugging me also on flavor grounds. What? The troll only has really long arms on its turn?

I'm also less than thrilled with at-will powers being different from a typical attack. Seems needlessly complicated to me.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:03 PM
Character sheet is up. (http://ddxp.tumblr.com/)
Eeeenteresting.

Looks like initiative is still based on Dex.

Looks like a Fighter's base Will defense is lower than Reflex or Fort, if the bonuses from stats works the same as 3e (which Reflex and Fort appear to, at least relative to each other).

Versatile definition! "+1 damage if wielded 2-handed".

I can't read much of anything in the class and race features :smallfrown:

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 01:03 PM
Sheets up for a Dwarf Fighter and a Half-Elf Warlock

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 01:05 PM
Oh dear, what are these passive insight vs. insight and passive perception vs. perception skills?

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:06 PM
...and Warlock powers.

Still can't read much of the fine print.



Also, I think the first Class/Race Feature on the Dwarf says:
"Cast Iron Stomach: +1 to saving throws vs. poison."

Morty
2008-02-28, 01:07 PM
Whee! Half-elves are in 4ed! I knew they can't screw over everything.
Also, I wonder what type of a character will ranger be. Will he be Martial Striker like a rogue?

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 01:10 PM
Warlock Spells


At Will

Eldritch Blast - Warlock (All) Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target One Creature
Attack: +4 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10+4 Damage
Special: This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power.

Eyebite - Warlock (Fey) Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: +4 Vs Will
Hit: 1d6+4 Psychic damage and you are invisible to the target until the start of your next turn.

Ray of Frost - Wizard Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target One Creature
Attack: +2 vs Fortitude
Hit: 1d6+2 Cold damage and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Encounter Power
Witchfire - Warlock (Fey) Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: +4 Vs Reflex
Hit: 2d6+4 Fire Damage and the target takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Daily Power
Curse of the Dark Dream - Warlock (Fey) Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target One Creature
Attack: +4 vs Will
Hit: 1d8+4 Psychic damage and you slide the target 3 squares.
<something>: You slide the target 1 square, whether you ... <something>

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 01:10 PM
From what it looks like on the back of the Warlock sheet it's 3 at will powers, one per encounter power, and one per day power at first level and spells are now powers. Versitility, thy name is no longer wizard.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:11 PM
Looks likely that the +4 powers are "Charisma vs (defense)", and the +2 is "Int vs. (defense)"

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 01:13 PM
So I guess Half-Elf is now confirmed as the last Core race.

Also, Eldritch Blast apparently deals 1d10+4 damage. The other "spells" look decent, but I don't like that Warlocks have to have a wand (or "implement") in hand to use their powers. Wish we got to see the Fighter's "exploits"...

Also, these are the sheets from an adventure they're running, right? And those are usually a different format from standard sheets, since they can leave out a lot of stuff? I hope so, because I don't like this layout at all.


GAH! Ninja'd like a billion times looking at these poor-quality pictures! Oh, the sudden strike damage!

Izar Goldbranch
2008-02-28, 01:13 PM
Oh dear, what are these passive insight vs. insight and passive perception vs. perception skills?

I remember this from the preview books.

Basically, the DM will know your passive insight/perception scores and will make rolls against these scores.

This is to avoid the DM going "everyone make spot checks" and having the players know immediately that something is up.

A player can ASK to make a perception roll any time he wants, but the passive scores are there to allow the DM to surprise the PCs without tipping off the players that something's about to happen

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 01:13 PM
Good call, artanis.

I'm squinting now to read the rest of the sheet... I'll post if I can make out anything good.

oh..


Warlock Curse

Once per turn as a <something> action, place a curse on the enemy nearest you, you do +1d6 damage on enemy. Lasts until end of encounter or enemy is defeated.

Fey Pact
M---y Step (Misty? Minty? Meaty?)
When you reduce an enemy under your Warlock's Curse to 0 hit points, you may teleport 3 squares as a free action.

Group Diplomacy

Grant allies within 10 squares a +1 racial bonus to diplomacy checks.

Prime Shot

If none of your allies are nearer to your target than you are, you gain a +1 to ranged attack rolls against the target.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 01:17 PM
I remember this from the preview books.

Basically, the DM will know your passive insight/perception scores and will make rolls against these scores.

This is to avoid the DM going "everyone make spot checks" and having the players know immediately that something is up.

A player can ASK to make a perception roll any time he wants, but the passive scores are there to allow the DM to surprise the PCs without tipping off the players that something's about to happen

Ah. I see now. And going by the numbers it looks the passive x is just 10 + x. i.e. everyone is taking 10 when the DM doesn't want them to roll.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:20 PM
Got one of the Warlock Features:

Fey Pact: (*something* Step - When you reduce an enemy under your Warlock's Curse to 0hp or fewer, you can teleport 3 squares as a free action)


Edit: Crap, ninja'd. I blame the lag spike. Yeah, that's the ticket. Lag. *walks away slowly while whistling innocently*

Obrysii
2008-02-28, 01:20 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole measuring distance in squares thing?

Or am I alone in not using miniatures? To me, "one square" means nothing.

Duke of URL
2008-02-28, 01:24 PM
For those curious the sheet he took a picture of in now up on the WotC Site for download. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/news_20080228.zip)

Wow... if this is what 4e is really going to be like, they might as well just name it "D&D for Dummies" and be done with it.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 01:26 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole "you push the enemy back 1 square"?

Or am I alone in not using miniature? To me, "one square" means nothing.

Replace "1 square" with "5 feet" and you get the same result. It's WOTCs way of really trying to push the online game table and the minis.

Izar Goldbranch
2008-02-28, 01:26 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole measuring distance in squares thing?

Or am I alone in not using miniatures? To me, "one square" means nothing.

Yeah, they pretty much changed all movement to "squares" in 4e.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:29 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole measuring distance in squares thing?

Or am I alone in not using miniatures? To me, "one square" means nothing.
It was already effectively this way in 3e, if not earlier. Ever notice how every range, movement, etc. increment - every last one - was in 5-foot increments? Yeah, they're simply acknowledging that this is the case.


Wow... if this is what 4e is really going to be like, they might as well just name it "D&D for Dummies" and be done with it.
What? Why? I don't see any dumbing down. A little extra shininess for stuff they're showing at a MAJOR EVENT, but nothing dumbing things down.

Morty
2008-02-28, 01:29 PM
Meh. Since they said that square=5 feet, they can call it however they want. And I'm not buying any miniatures anway.

Duke of URL
2008-02-28, 01:31 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole measuring distance in squares thing?

Or am I alone in not using miniatures? To me, "one square" means nothing.

I'm not too fussed over it. This way, a "square" can be defined in whatever measurements you like -- 5 ft. in English measure or 1.5 meters are very close (within rounding error) measurements to each other, and so it becomes not so American-centric for the international audience.

Duke of URL
2008-02-28, 01:35 PM
What? Why? I don't see any dumbing down. A little extra shininess for stuff they're showing at a MAJOR EVENT, but nothing dumbing things down.

Well, let's just try one little quote as an example:



Saving throws are simple – just roll 1d20. If you roll a 10 or higher, you’ll end the effect. If you roll a 9 or lower, the effect will usually continue until you have to make another saving throw at the end of your next turn.


Okay, so we no longer have to worry about saving throws and save DCs scaling differently over time, because neither of them scale at all. Congrats, no matter what you do, you still only get a 45% chance to beat their save, with only the occasional situational bonus applied to shift that number.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:40 PM
Well, let's just try one little quote as an example:



Okay, so we no longer have to worry about saving throws and save DCs scaling differently over time, because neither of them scale at all. Congrats, no matter what you do, you still only get a 45% chance to beat their save, with only the occasional situational bonus applied to shift that number.
But we already knew this, so what does that have to do with the character sheets?


Edit: And in any case, I agree with it.

In 3e, player stats and saves scaled with DCs such that the PCs had to roll an X to beat a DC at an appropriate level. So why not just say "the PCs need to roll an X to beat the save" and not deal with superfluous bookkeeping?

Dizlag
2008-02-28, 01:41 PM
For those of you worried about monsters with reach not threatening PCs anymore ... or your PCs with a reach weapon not threatening monsters. Read the "TIP" under 12)


TIP: Watch out for the few creatures with threatening reach – they can threaten more than just squares adjacent to them.

Notice my bolded text, I would assume this could be a feat or class ability or monster ability you can get / assign. What do you all think?

Dizlag

p.s. Does anyone else feel like it's Christmas in February? I'm just giddy over all of this new crunchy stuff! :smallbiggrin:

Little_Rudo
2008-02-28, 01:41 PM
Anyone else annoyed with that whole measuring distance in squares thing?

Or am I alone in not using miniatures? To me, "one square" means nothing.

Think of it more like an appeal to the (many countries) that use metric. Instead of translating 5 ft. into 1 square, then 1 square into 2 meters, they can just double the squares and have the approximate amount in meters. Meanwhile, those who aren't metric just multiple the squares by 5.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-28, 01:44 PM
Well, let's just try one little quote as an example:



Okay, so we no longer have to worry about saving throws and save DCs scaling differently over time, because neither of them scale at all. Congrats, no matter what you do, you still only get a 45% chance to beat their save, with only the occasional situational bonus applied to shift that number.

The saves described aren't really like saving throws--saving throws have been replaced by Fortitude/Reflex/Will defenses. The "save" here is really more like duration.

I'm not seeing how this is horribly dumbed down.

Telonius
2008-02-28, 01:44 PM
Oh dear, what are these passive insight vs. insight and passive perception vs. perception skills?

Note that neither of them have a + next to the numbers. I *suspect* that this means they're static values, something like taking 10 to search. Wisdom is low on this character so I think that means Passive Perception is keyed off of Wisdom (or possible from the class).

tresson
2008-02-28, 01:48 PM
Well, let's just try one little quote as an example:



Okay, so we no longer have to worry about saving throws and save DCs scaling differently over time, because neither of them scale at all. Congrats, no matter what you do, you still only get a 45% chance to beat their save, with only the occasional situational bonus applied to shift that number.

Because the saving throw your thing of have been turned into defenses and will be treated like ac i.e. your roll your attack vs them. What you confusing them is a new mechanic using the old one's name.

Obrysii
2008-02-28, 01:49 PM
Think of it more like an appeal to the (many countries) that use metric. Instead of translating 5 ft. into 1 square, then 1 square into 2 meters, they can just double the squares and have the approximate amount in meters. Meanwhile, those who aren't metric just multiple the squares by 5.

Does that mean that the descriptions will be in squares, too? A halfling is half a square tall, an Giant is three squares tall?

Does that mean that instead miles per hour, we have squares per hour or kilosquares per hour?

I don't know about you, but I like my game and campaign world to be internally consistent. If the giant is 15 feet tall, I want him to be able to move at a certain number of feet per round, too.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 01:52 PM
Does that mean that the descriptions will be in squares, too? A halfling is half a square tall, an Giant is three squares tall?
Now you're just being silly.


Does that mean that instead miles per hour, we have squares per hour or kilosquares per hour?
In tactical combat, it doesn't matter. You can translate it if you want, but when you're talking about distances of a few yards, figuring that out in terms of Miles Per Hour is pointless to the point of utter irrelevance.

In long-range travel, there's no reason to use squares. Again, you're just being silly with this.


I don't know about you, but I like my game and campaign world to be internally consistent. If the giant is 15 feet tall, I want him to be able to move at a certain number of feet per round, too.
Then do so. 3e had all movement, range, etc. in 5-foot increments, meaning it might as well have been in "squares" anyways. So if you want it in feet, just do the reverse of what everybody was already effectively doing in 3e and translate it back.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 02:00 PM
Does that mean that the descriptions will be in squares, too? A halfling is half a square tall, an Giant is three squares tall?


You know, now that I think to look for it... height and weight don't seem to be on the character sheets... I wonder what if anything that indicates.

Dizlag
2008-02-28, 02:01 PM
The Passive Insight and Passive Perception are effectively your character taking 10 on this skills all the time. So, say there is a secret door you walk by with a Perception DC of 10 and your Passive Perception is 12, then you automatically detect the secret door. Or an open pit in front of you, for instance as well.

Dizlag

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-28, 02:05 PM
So half elf is in.

These character sheets look a bit strange, as if they're meant to be one-use. There's no place for XP, no place for magic item slots (unless you just used the v. small gear section), and the few available powers are printed in their entirety on the back fo the sheets. Thus, I assume they must be just for the event.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 02:08 PM
So half elf is in.

These character sheets look a bit strange, as if they're meant to be one-use. There's no place for XP, no place for magic item slots (unless you just used the v. small gear section), and the few available powers are printed in their entirety on the back fo the sheets. Thus, I assume they must be just for the event.
That's the assumption I came up with as well.

Reinboom
2008-02-28, 02:32 PM
So half elf is in.

These character sheets look a bit strange, as if they're meant to be one-use. There's no place for XP, no place for magic item slots (unless you just used the v. small gear section), and the few available powers are printed in their entirety on the back fo the sheets. Thus, I assume they must be just for the event.

They are near exactly like the sheets you get at 3.5e events/official games (at least, at gencon...).

This doesn't offer us much yet.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 02:54 PM
Hmm, the only "controller" type is Wizard. Looks like every adventuring party will have one :)

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-28, 03:04 PM
Hmm, the only "controller" type is Wizard. Looks like every adventuring party will have one :)

Until Sorcerer and Druid come out, anyway.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 03:09 PM
Hmm, the only "controller" type is Wizard. Looks like every adventuring party will have one :)

I thought I'd heard of at least one more controller. Hmm...

I know there was an article about warlocks a while ago on the WotC site that talked about how they started out as just Strikers, but ended up getting some Controller powers (like the one in the character sheet that pushes enemies around). Maybe Rangers specialize in ranged combat in order to control the battlefield? Also, Defenders (Fighters and Paladins, at least) I think also are supposed to have some control abilities that "draw enemy fire," so to speak.

Anyway, I know the goal they have is to make sure each power source has some form of each Role. Arcane Controller (Wizard), Arcane Striker (Warlock), Arcane Defended (Swordmage), Arcane Defender (yet to be seen). Eventually I bet there'll be at least one of each combination for Martial, Divine, and Arcane classes of each role.

Indon
2008-02-28, 03:20 PM
Low-level daily powers. Whew.

Aside from that, this is nothing I wasn't expecting. Caster powers look about the same as non-caster powers, mechanically.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 03:24 PM
I'm noticing with the back of the Fighter page up that apparently "powers" is the generic catch-all for everything and each Power Source gets it's own actual designation. Spells for Arcane and Exploits for Martial.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 03:24 PM
Wow, that Fighter power is tasty...



Encounter Power
Passing Attack - Fighter Attack 1
You strike at one foe and allow momentum to carry you forward into a second strike against a second foe.
Encounter - Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Primary Target: One Creature
Attack: +6 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10+5 damage (if using handaxe 1d6 +5 damagE), and you can shift 1 square. Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target.
Secondary Attack: +8 vs AC
Hit: 1d10+5 damage (if using handaxe 1d6+5 damage)

So just a standard attack, a step, and an attack with a +2 bonus. Neat.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-28, 03:29 PM
Wow, that Fighter power is tasty...



So just a standard attack, a step, and an attack with a +2 bonus. Neat.

Isn't this like a Cleave but to activate you need to hit not kill. Interesting idea though.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 03:31 PM
It's the new "cleave"... whereas Cleave is now an at will power where your attack deals 3 points of damage to people adjacent to the person you attack. whee!

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 03:41 PM
Houston we have a Wizard Sheet!

Magic Missile at Will!
Force orb per encounter!
Acid Arrow 1/day!

Morty
2008-02-28, 03:42 PM
Bupbupbupbup! Character sheet and spells for tiefling wizard are up.
Looks like wizard will get more powers than other classes. Which is good. He also chooses his Per Day spells during rest, which is even better. My hope for 4ed is a bit restored.
EDIT: Damn you, ninja!

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 03:44 PM
Criminy!

My head is swimming with how much power the characters have at 1st level.

I keep thinking back to how crappy my 2e mages were, fleeing from housecats and such...

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 03:48 PM
EDIT: Damn you, ninja!

Swordsage, not ninja. But yes, i was speedy.

I am definitely feeling more interested in 4th edition. I know the local gaming club at my college will buy the books, and at least one person in my group gets a membership, meaning we'll be able to check the out an dlook them over at no cost to decide if it's worth it.

Too bad the campaign setting I'm working on is firmly grounded in 3.5, but we're not likely to convert right away anyway.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-28, 03:50 PM
Bupbupbupbup! Character sheet and spells for tiefling wizard are up.
Looks like wizard will get more powers than other classes. Which is good. He also chooses his Per Day spells during rest, which is even better. My hope for 4ed is a bit restored.
EDIT: Damn you, ninja!

This is more hopeful I will agree. Still wondering though, will wizard daily powers scale up in frequency of use as the Wizard gains levels? For example, would Acid Arrow become an encounter power for a 5th level wizard rather than a daily power? That would make me feel substantially better.

Edit: Same with some powers for the other classes too come to think of it.

ColdBrew
2008-02-28, 03:57 PM
This is more hopeful I will agree. Still wondering though, will wizard daily powers scale up in frequency of use as the Wizard gains levels? For example, would Acid Arrow become an encounter power for a 5th level wizard rather than a daily power? That would make me feel substantially better.

Edit: Same with some powers for the other classes too come to think of it.
There's already a bit of precedent for this in the Shadowcaster's powers from Tome of Magic, though that class was a horribly tangled mess of obscure mechanics. The basic idea, however, could carry over.

edit: Just noticed charging is a standard action. Looks like you can move into position and then charge. Also, technically, the description doesn't say you have to charge in a straight line, just "to the nearest square", but I assume that'll be explicit in the published rules.

Morty
2008-02-28, 03:59 PM
This is more hopeful I will agree. Still wondering though, will wizard daily powers scale up in frequency of use as the Wizard gains levels? For example, would Acid Arrow become an encounter power for a 5th level wizard rather than a daily power? That would make me feel substantially better.

Edit: Same with some powers for the other classes too come to think of it.

That's not bad idea, but we don't have any evidence for or against it right now.
Still, it seems wizards class might not get relegated to the role of fireball-tosser. I just hope there will be more cantrips as wizard gains levels.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-28, 04:11 PM
I'm noticing with the back of the Fighter page up that apparently "powers" is the generic catch-all for everything and each Power Source gets it's own actual designation. Spells for Arcane and Exploits for Martial.

HA. I was totally right in that one thread. It's even "exploits".

*basks in the warm, smug glow of correctness*

tyckspoon
2008-02-28, 04:13 PM
Haven't noticed anybody mention this yet, and (if my memory isn't futzed) it's new information- healing surges provide 1/4 of maximum HP. Fighter (and possibly other Defender classes?) gets 9+ Con modifier, everybody else gets 6+ Con mod. Even the Wizard, which implies that 6 is the minimum base. Second Wind appears to be yet another distinct element- it has its own checkbox. Function of these mechanics is still unknown, so we don't know if Surges and/or Second Wind requires a Leader to help activate or make more effective; as it stands, it looks like a careful party could manage themselves without official healing aid.

Also, despite the chatter about 'penalties aren't fun', these sheets use the same scheme for attribute bonuses and penalties as 3rd Ed.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-28, 04:14 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure we know that Second Wind eats up a Healing Surge, and is 1/encounter on your own (thus, when you use it you check the Second Wind box), plus certain Leader powers will allow you to expend a Healing Surge and get the benefits as well.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 04:15 PM
Also, despite the chatter about 'penalties aren't fun', these sheets use the same scheme for attribute bonuses and penalties as 3rd Ed.
It was more in reference to racial stat penalties, such as an Elf's -2 CON.

Dizlag
2008-02-28, 04:23 PM
Check out the Quick Start Rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080228a) and read the Healing section.



5. Healing gets an overhaul.
Hit points still measure your ability to stay in the fight, but healing’s no longer just the burden of one character anymore. Each character has a certain number of healing surges. Once during each encounter, you can take a standard action called a second wind; this gives you a certain amount of hit points back equal to your healing surge value and gives you a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the start of your next turn. You then tick off one of your healing surges for the day. Some powers (like some cleric prayers) will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off your healing surges for them as well. When you run out of healing surges, you’ll want to take an extended rest.
If you’re outside of combat, you can take a short rest and tick off the healing surges you need to heal up damage.

TIP: If you’ve been knocked down a few hit points and can’t decide what to do when it’s your turn, taking a second wind action is a good idea.


Notice my bold text ... a "Second Wind" uses up a healing surge and a power that heals you your healing surge HPs (1/4 your HPs) also uses a healing surge. Pretty nice, imo.

Dizlag

EDIT: Aye laddie! Us dwarven ninjas per'fer da axe to a pointy toothpick! :smallbiggrin:

tresson
2008-02-28, 04:24 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure we know that Second Wind eats up a Healing Surge, and is 1/encounter on your own (thus, when you use it you check the Second Wind box), plus certain Leader powers will allow you to expend a Healing Surge and get the benefits as well.

Just for completeness I believe the second wind is 1/day and a short rest (5 mins) will also allow to use a healing surge. I would also appear to able to heal 1/4 of your hp.

Edit: Bloody dwarven ninjas! I'll get you yet ;)

tyckspoon
2008-02-28, 04:24 PM
It was more in reference to racial stat penalties, such as an Elf's -2 CON.

While we're speaking of stat mods, can we determine any from these sheets? It looks kind of like the characters were made with an 18-16-14-12-10-8 array, but I'm having trouble matching that with the characters; the wizard in particular doesn't seem to work unless it's taking a penalty somewhere. It'd be nice to see a Human that presumably doesn't have any racial attribute changes.

tresson
2008-02-28, 04:26 PM
EN World has the dwarf as +2 Con +2 Wis with a point buy of 30pts.

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-28, 04:31 PM
I really like this.

Uniformity of active attacks versus passive defenses is a very good thing. Now instead of people rolling saving throws, you're making attack rolls against defensive stats, much like attacks against armor class. This makes perfect sense, lets everyone roll about as many dice as one another, and is easy to deal with. I'm glad they went with this.

The at will/per encounter/per day abilities is very cool; sure, you won't be making many basic attacks, but that isn't a bad thing. It always gives people something interesting to do and allows everyone to have about as many options as one another.

The way the various rolls are delineated is pretty clear and easy to follow, for which I am glad - this will make our lives a whole lot easier. It will be a pain to copy down all the attacks, but eh, so be it - I did it with my warblade and won't have a problem doing it again.

I like the passive perception and insight numbers; they make perfect sense and in reality I already kind of have used them in the past to determine whether or not someone will spot something which is hiding/hidden/ect. when just moving passively. Its easy and it works well, and I'm glad they decided to do what I did.

My only real worry is that the uniqueness of the wizard, being the only controller class, is going to cause problems. Unique classes are the most difficult to balance, and I fear we may see a repeat of the wizard being able to do everything again this edition. Let us hope I'm wrong, eh? I hope there's something to distinguish them strongly from "warlocks but more versatile". The added versatility which seems inherent in wizards seems rather sketchy as well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-28, 04:35 PM
If it's 30 pt buy, the tiefling has +2 int, +1 wis. If it's 18/16/14/12/10/8(and how nice wizards is admitting that that's not overpowered) then he has to have a penalty somewhere.
Half-Elf probably has +2 cha, +1 int, +1 dex if it's 30pt, or +1 int -1 dex if it's 18.
Dwarf fits +2 con, +2 wis perfectly.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 04:36 PM
Does anyone know if the 3 hardcover adventures are supposed to be a series that takes the PCs from 1-10? (first is listed as 1-3, second as 4-6, third as 7-10)

Might be nice to play through something like that the first time... just to get the hang of the system.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-28, 04:42 PM
That's not bad idea, but we don't have any evidence for or against it right now.
Still, it seems wizards class might not get relegated to the role of fireball-tosser. I just hope there will be more cantrips as wizard gains levels.

This is more or less how the shadow mage works (Tome of Magic), so I wouldn't be surprised if it worked this way for 4e wizards.

Rutee
2008-02-28, 04:44 PM
Dig the Kobold Comment.

tresson
2008-02-28, 04:46 PM
Would a 32 point buy work then? I remember that number mentioned too...

Now to distract you from my mistake here's a quote for the live blog I found amusing.



The monster manual has five hundred monsters in it and, if this module is any sign, they’re all kobolds. 10 minutes ago


And some new info from Mike.



My dwarven Tide of Iron is very cinematic. Most of the “powers” are very cinematic. At level one we had a ranger hit two kobolds with two arrows for a total of 44 damage. The game isnt exactly moving faster than third but people are still figuring things out. The reduction of rolls changed to decisions about powers and positioning. Wizards and Pallys have lots of abilities at level one. Might be confusing for brand new players. 17 minutes ago

tresson
2008-02-28, 04:52 PM
Does anyone know if the 3 hardcover adventures are supposed to be a series that takes the PCs from 1-10? (first is listed as 1-3, second as 4-6, third as 7-10)

Might be nice to play through something like that the first time... just to get the hang of the system.

I believe that wizards said the adventure would run you through the heroic levels so I'd assume so.

Trog
2008-02-28, 04:54 PM
Hmm... I worry a bit about the description of area attacks. Roll damage then make an attack roll on each creature. So does that mean that you have to roll a dozen d6s for damage then a dozen more d20s to hit? Hmm... maybe they make the damage more standardized or something. :smallconfused:

Other than that is seems very cool. I hope they make that 18/16/14/12/10/8 the standard array you can choose. Instead of having that dork show up to your game with a pre rolled character of 3 18s and 3 17s (uh... yeah... I was really lucky huh? >.> <.<) :smalltongue:

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 04:54 PM
Does anyone know if the 3 hardcover adventures are supposed to be a series that takes the PCs from 1-10? (first is listed as 1-3, second as 4-6, third as 7-10)

Might be nice to play through something like that the first time... just to get the hang of the system.

My Guess is Yes, and I believe they have stated as such.

The first 3 are the H series (Heroic, I would guess) the next 3 are the P series, which based on the former assumption makes them Paragon.

Dizlag
2008-02-28, 04:56 PM
Critical-Hits.com has a great review (http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/02/28/dd-xp-seminar/) of products from this morning's session!

And yes, the others have said there is an "H" series for Heroic levels of play and a "P" series for Paragon levels of play.

Enjoy!

Dizlag

tyckspoon
2008-02-28, 04:57 PM
Oh, does anybody else find it odd that the Fighter (a Defender, supposedly) has the biggest raw-damage Power yet viewed? Triple damage for the Daily power.. I hope there's something in the blurred out stuff on the front of the page that fits, because so far this particular Fighter seems to be pointed more towards Striker-ness.

ColdBrew
2008-02-28, 05:02 PM
Hmm... I worry a bit about the description of area attacks. Roll damage then make an attack roll on each creature. So does that mean that you have to roll a dozen d6s for damage then a dozen more d20s to hit? Hmm... maybe they make the damage more standardized or something. :smallconfused:

You make one damage roll, then apply that damage to each enemy you successfully hit. Saves rolling since you don't have to roll those dozen d6s for each enemy tagged, Actually, I'm getting the impression that you won't be rolling as many dice for damage anyway. This doesn't seem to be a 20d6 type of game.

Artanis
2008-02-28, 05:05 PM
Oh, does anybody else find it odd that the Fighter (a Defender, supposedly) has the biggest raw-damage Power yet viewed? Triple damage for the Daily power.. I hope there's something in the blurred out stuff on the front of the page that fits, because so far this particular Fighter seems to be pointed more towards Striker-ness.
I don't find it the least bit odd, for three reasons:

1) It's a per-day power. Those are going to be damned powerful.

2) They've said the way the Fighter keeps monsters beating on him is by being very, very dangerous.

3) They've said that classes aren't hard-locked into their roles, but instead will have some versatility. They won't be as good at other roles as a designated class of that role, but they often can pull it off. The Fighter being able to sub as a Striker (not as good a Striker as a Rogue or Warlock or whatever, but still somewhat of a Striker) is right in line with this.

RTGoodman
2008-02-28, 05:35 PM
To quote myself from about 2 pages and about 4 1/2 hours ago:


Wish we got to see the Fighter's "exploits"...

Then I go and take a nap and what do I miss? ALL THE FUN STUFF! :smallfurious:


Anyway, I'm really liking the look of these so far. I was hopeful for 4E, and this just makes me wish it was June (?) already.

Matthew
2008-02-28, 06:41 PM
Anybody else wonder about this statement?



An extended rest is akin to “camping” and lasts 6 hours. After an extended rest, you’re fully healed, you have a full compliment of healing surges, you have your daily powers back, and you reset your action points to 1.


Does this mean 'per day' powers are actually 'per six hours' powers?!

Artanis
2008-02-28, 06:44 PM
Anybody else wonder about this statement?



Does this mean 'per day' powers are actually 'per six hours' powers?!
Only as much as a 3e Wizard's spell allotment is "number of spells per eight hours".


Translation: I read that as saying "when you go to sleep for the night for six hours, you get your per day powers back".

Draz74
2008-02-28, 07:02 PM
Which could mean the "narcolepsy problem" isn't actually gone. :smallannoyed: Unless they write a limit in the rules about how complete rest only actually benefits you 1/day.

Although at least all classes will be narcoleptic together.

And they're making an interesting downside to resting too -- you lose all your current action points. Whoa. Can anyone imagine an action-point-based build that never sleeps, and just doesn't care about his per-day powers?

Matthew
2008-02-28, 07:07 PM
Exactly, no more narcoleptic Wizards, instead we may have narcoleptic parties... Here's hoping that there is a rule limiting how many times you can "camp" in a twenty four hour period.

Action Point reset is interesting. I suppose it just means you cannot save up huge numbers of them, which is all for the good.

Rutee
2008-02-28, 07:07 PM
I think Action Points will fix Narcolepsy on their own, since there's a tangible downside, even outside of time sensitivity. Why Nova when you can build up the more useful Action Points and fight a little bit harder?

Artanis
2008-02-28, 07:11 PM
Class balance will help as well.

In 3e, when the Wizard runs out of spells, the party takes a nap, because the Wizard is such a huge percentage of the party's ability to actually do anything...like not get killed.

In 4e, somebody who blows his per-day abilities and asks to rest is going to get a resounding "f*** off" from the rest of the party which can still carry on without that fraction of one guy's firepower, especially if they have a couple Action Points saved up.

Matthew
2008-02-28, 07:26 PM
I think Action Points will fix Narcolepsy on their own, since there's a tangible downside, even outside of time sensitivity. Why Nova when you can build up the more useful Action Points and fight a little bit harder?

Well... you can only use 1 Action point per Encounter, apparently. I could be reading it wrong, but "TIP: Make sure to spend action points at least once every other encounter (as often as you earn them), since you can only spend one per encounter."



Class balance will help as well.

In 3e, when the Wizard runs out of spells, the party takes a nap, because the Wizard is such a huge percentage of the party's ability to actually do anything...like not get killed.

In 4e, somebody who blows his per-day abilities and asks to rest is going to get a resounding "f*** off" from the rest of the party which can still carry on without that fraction of one guy's firepower, especially if they have a couple Action Points saved up.

Hah, hah. Seriously, that's what already happens in my D20 games. If the Wizard blows all his magic in the first encounter the rest of the party tell him to get stuffed when he wants to rest. The only difference I'm seeing with 4e is the entire party can blow their per day abilities in the first encounter and will all want to bugger off to rest together.

Xanthos
2008-02-28, 07:37 PM
Hah, hah. Seriously, that's what already happens in my D20 games. If the Wizard blows all his magic in the first encounter the rest of the party tell him to get stuffed when he wants to rest. The only difference I'm seeing with 4e is the entire party can blow their per day abilities in the first encounter and will all want to bugger off to rest together.

Well, the big difference is that right now, if the Wizard blows all his spells, he can't really do much. Try to hit something with a crossbow with meager to hit and damage, but that's it.

In 4th Ed, even if everyone blows all their daily abilites, there's still quite a bit they can do. As an example, the 1st level fighter: while as 3[w] power that isn't expended 'til it hits is powerful, there's still *lots* of stuff the fighter can do after he's used it.

ColdBrew
2008-02-28, 07:40 PM
Here's hoping that there is a rule limiting how many times you can "camp" in a twenty four hour period.

There is: 4.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-28, 07:56 PM
Less than 4. If you rest 4 times, your day is gone. Counting the time for walking to reach the encounter, following quest hooks and actually carrying out the encounter, you'd be resting twice a day at most.

ColdBrew
2008-02-28, 08:00 PM
Less than 4. If you rest 4 times, your day is gone. Counting the time for walking to reach the encounter, following quest hooks and actually carrying out the encounter, you'd be resting twice a day at most.
I don't know about you, but my group's gonna do nothing but rest for days. That way we'll roll into combat with tons of per-day abilities stored up, thus guaranteeing victory.

You don't have to say it, we know we win D&D.

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-28, 08:05 PM
It doesn't matter at all how many times in a 24 hour period you can rest; I don't see why people think this is going to be an issue. If you're worried about your party blowing all of their per-day abilities in the first encounter every time, then retreating to rest, then have the enemies react realistically and gank them in their sleep.

Matthew
2008-02-28, 08:11 PM
Well, the big difference is that right now, if the Wizard blows all his spells, he can't really do much. Try to hit something with a crossbow with meager to hit and damage, but that's it.

In 4th Ed, even if everyone blows all their daily abilites, there's still quite a bit they can do. As an example, the 1st level fighter: while as 3[w] power that isn't expended 'til it hits is powerful, there's still *lots* of stuff the fighter can do after he's used it.

Is that a huge difference, though? I mean a Wizard in D20 can still do a fair bit after blowing his best spells are expended, particularly if he's kitted out with the various scrolls and wands that the system seems to expect.

I wonder if the difference isn't so much a 'giant leap' as just 'a step forward'.



It doesn't matter at all how many times in a 24 hour period you can rest; I don't see why people think this is going to be an issue. If you're worried about your party blowing all of their per-day abilities in the first encounter every time, then retreating to rest, then have the enemies react realistically and gank them in their sleep.

That'll be because that's exactly what people say in D20 with regards to parties that frequently rest. That, or build a time limit into the adventure. It doesn't actually solve anything with regards to the core problem, it just encourages parties to take lots of precautions before resting.

AlterForm
2008-02-28, 09:05 PM
Which could mean the "narcolepsy problem" isn't actually gone. :smallannoyed: Unless they write a limit in the rules about how complete rest only actually benefits you 1/day.

Although at least all classes will be narcoleptic together.

And they're making an interesting downside to resting too -- you lose all your current action points. Whoa. Can anyone imagine an action-point-based build that never sleeps, and just doesn't care about his per-day powers?

Yes, I can. 10:1 that this is one of the earliest optimizations to come out of 4e. :smallamused:

Spoilerized for supreme stupidity caused by my failing a spot check. None of this actually has any bearing on anything.

And now a little ranting:

DISCLAIMER: This post, from here on, represents only my view(s) and does not pretend to know or predict the opinions of other posters, others players, or developers. Contact your doctor to find out if my post is right for you. Feel free to attempt to convince me my fears are unfounded for one reason or another.

Are they assuming people are stupid who will play 4e? Reasoning:




Use your at-will powers instead of using basic
attacks. They’ll frequently do more than just a modest
amount of damage to one enemy.


Duh, I could've told you that.



Triggered Actions:
Your DM can tell you more about those should you need them.


What if I want to know about them now? Sure, I can read the DMG and/or PHB, but to me this quote sounds like the DM is my freaking mother or something. :smallannoyed:



Make sure to spend action points at least once every
other encounter (as often as you earn them), since you can only
spend one per encounter.


Clearly I can't work out a quick rate problem, either. I can do division, thankyouverymuch.



Moving from one square to another, even diagonally,
costs 1 square of speed.


Bothersome... 1/2/1/2/1/2 wasn't that hard to figure out. At least they went with 1 instead of 2. Then I'd have to resurrect Pyhagoras to kick their asses. As it is, I can just let him roll over in his grave.

Some of 4e looks promising...but some of it not so much.

And that GameTable better knock my ass off at $120 a year.

[/rant]

SamTheCleric
2008-02-28, 10:02 PM
Well, he posted a full page review... his biggest problem with 4e is that it doesnt play any faster than 3.X... and that june can't get here fast enough.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-28, 10:28 PM
And that GameTable better knock my ass off, at $120 a year.


It just occured to me, if they were to say, include a free month of the online stuff with every book purchased, that was good more than once, they'd probably get more people into it. That way people who are buying the book scan get a taste of it and decide if they want to pay for it or not.

AlterForm
2008-02-28, 10:29 PM
It just occured to me, if they were to say, include a free month of the online stuff with every book purchased, that was good more than once, they'd probably get more people into it. That way people who are buying the book scan get a taste of it and decide if they want to pay for it or not.

+1

Filler text, because all I want is emphasis. What the hell are you still reading this for?

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-28, 10:38 PM
That'll be because that's exactly what people say in D20 with regards to parties that frequently rest. That, or build a time limit into the adventure. It doesn't actually solve anything with regards to the core problem, it just encourages parties to take lots of precautions before resting.

You're assuming you can take the same precautions in 4th edition as you could in 3.X, which seems rather unlikely. In 3.X it was pretty easy to set yourself up to be practically invulnerable while sleeping given a bit of downtime, but without rope tricks, instant mansions, and various other shenanigans, and with the list of spells likely to be significantly shorter, I don't think it will be near as much of an issue.

That said, teleport MAY still exist, but I have the feeling it is a use/day ability, which are, I'm guessing, fairly limited. As such I suspect keeping back Teleport is not always going to be an awesome solution.

Also, "going nova" doesn't seem all that likely to be as good in 4th edition as it was in third edition.

And, finally, if you know your party is likely to do this, and the dungeon is something it is reasonable for them to do very slowly, simply increase the level of each individual encounter to match. Otherwise it is pretty preventable, and if someone decided "I'm going to attack the orc castle, then teleport out halfway through to rest back in town", if the orcs have any way of figuring out where they left, the orcs could very well set up for them.

Fundamentally there's nothing WRONG with people being able to rest twice in a day, necessarily - in real life, you can spend hours doing something exhausting, then rest for a while, be recharged, and do something else. If you're in good shape, you'll be fine.

All that making people sleep once every twenty-four hours does is stretch the amount of downtime in the game; it has no other effects whatsoever. As such, it matters not a whit.


And they're making an interesting downside to resting too -- you lose all your current action points. Whoa. Can anyone imagine an action-point-based build that never sleeps, and just doesn't care about his per-day powers?

I don't think that's all that good, to be honest; action points are not as good as per-day powers. You can only use one action point per encounter, and you only GAIN 1/2 an action point per encounter; your allies will get full uses of their use per day powers and full use of their action points, and in addition will be able to use 1 action point per adventure more than you will.

Fundamentally unless there is some other way to get them (and I doubt that) that'd be bad, not good.


What if I want to know about them now? Sure, I can read the DMG and/or PHB, but to me this quote sounds like the DM is my freaking mother or something.

You don't. They're more complexity than is needed for a basic grasp of the rules, and if for some reason you DO need them the DM can tell you, but I doubt you will need them. Frankly, they aren't putting the DMG and PHB on the sheet. It seems like an odd complaint.


Well, he posted a full page review... his biggest problem with 4e is that it doesnt play any faster than 3.X... and that june can't get here fast enough.

Generally speed is a factor of how many questions you need to ask and how many choices you have, so I'm not suprised it doesn't run any faster.

Tyger
2008-02-28, 10:40 PM
Yes, I can. 10:1 that this is one of the earliest optimizations to come out of 4e. :smallamused:
<snip>

Are they assuming people are stupid who will play 4e? Reasoning:

What if I want to know about them now? Sure, I can read the DMG and/or PHB, but to me this quote sounds like the DM is my freaking mother or something. :smallannoyed:

No, they are saying to the players in this limited game, "We aren't going to give you the DMG, or the PHB, but the basic rules are these. If you need to know more, ask the DM (who does know the rules)." They aren't saying these are for players once the game comes out, only for the players at this particular event.

Keep in mind, all of the stuff we are seeing is not the complete picture here. Making assumptions based on this very limited information is really a bit premature. Admitedly, its also very tempting and very entertaining!

AlterForm
2008-02-28, 10:46 PM
I see why that sheet seemed so rudimentary. I missed the subtitle under "Dungeons and Dragons".

This is now me:

http://will.incorrige.us/facepalm/picard.jpeg

I'll just go pound my head against the wall for a couple minutes now. :smallsmile:

Matthew
2008-02-29, 07:33 AM
You're assuming you can take the same precautions in 4th edition as you could in 3.X, which seems rather unlikely. In 3.X it was pretty easy to set yourself up to be practically invulnerable while sleeping given a bit of downtime, but without rope tricks, instant mansions, and various other shenanigans, and with the list of spells likely to be significantly shorter, I don't think it will be near as much of an issue.

Of course I am assuming that. The point, however, is not how secure the PCs might make themselves, as that is going to differ from group to group and depends on what splat books are released, etc... but that 'per day abilities' are not 'per day' at all, which was something that was previously thought to be rather a good modification.



That said, teleport MAY still exist, but I have the feeling it is a use/day ability, which are, I'm guessing, fairly limited. As such I suspect keeping back Teleport is not always going to be an awesome solution.

Also, "going nova" doesn't seem all that likely to be as good in 4th edition as it was in third edition.

Well, it will be nice if any of this turns out to be true, but what are you basing these suppositions on?



And, finally, if you know your party is likely to do this, and the dungeon is something it is reasonable for them to do very slowly, simply increase the level of each individual encounter to match. Otherwise it is pretty preventable, and if someone decided "I'm going to attack the orc castle, then teleport out halfway through to rest back in town", if the orcs have any way of figuring out where they left, the orcs could very well set up for them.

Which is still a D20 solution.



Fundamentally there's nothing WRONG with people being able to rest twice in a day, necessarily - in real life, you can spend hours doing something exhausting, then rest for a while, be recharged, and do something else. If you're in good shape, you'll be fine.

All that making people sleep once every twenty-four hours does is stretch the amount of downtime in the game; it has no other effects whatsoever. As such, it matters not a whit.

I don't know about that, being forced to operate without significant magic powers for 21 hours is quite different from being forced to operate without significant magic powers for 6 hours. It increases the amount of downtime you have to take to fully redeploy, which does make people think twice about when to deploy.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-29, 07:55 AM
I see why that sheet seemed so rudimentary. I missed the subtitle under "Dungeons and Dragons".

This is now me:

http://will.incorrige.us/facepalm/picard.jpeg

I'll just go pound my head against the wall for a couple minutes now. :smallsmile:

A fellow FARKer, I am guessing? :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2008-02-29, 08:15 AM
If you haven't seen decent shots of the character sheets already, check this out: 4e Character Sheets (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets)

SamTheCleric
2008-02-29, 08:19 AM
Wow, those paladin abilities are awesome. o_O

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-29, 08:28 AM
Wow, those paladin abilities are awesome. o_O

Yeah. everything is awesome.. which is kind of what scares me.

I really wanna see monsters. I need to see what they look like in relative strength to the PCs vs. how much xp they give vs. the amount needed to level up.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-29, 08:38 AM
The warlock has more HP than the Paladin...

Tank Mage!

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-29, 08:38 AM
I don't know about that, being forced to operate without significant magic powers for 21 hours is quite different from being forced to operate without significant magic powers for 6 hours. It increases the amount of downtime you have to take to fully redeploy, which does make people think twice about when to deploy.

There is no practical difference between 6 hours and 21 hours of downtime due to fast-forwarding; the only "real difference" is a time-sensitive mission, and honestly, meh - generally time-sensitive missions either will allow either or won't allow either.


The warlock has more HP than the Paladin...

Tank Mage!

Yeah, but that's largely the result of the warlock having a high con and the paladin having a not so high con; even so, though, the paladin does have "more hp" in the sense that over the day he can take more punishment (11 healing surges for 6 each is 66; 9 healing surges for 7 each is only 63, meaning the paladin ultimately has 2 more hp/day). His defenses/AC are also massively better.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-29, 08:45 AM
Wow, they made the paladin kick as much butt as a Crusader it looks like.

And did anyone else notice that the cleric can't heal? They only have an attack that grants temporary HP? Interesting, it means that early on, healing suges are the only way to heal, making them the greatest limiter to adventuring rather than the use of daily powers.

Those scans of the sheets provide a LOT of info.

SamTheCleric
2008-02-29, 08:48 AM
Well, he can buff your healing surge... but no direct heal. That -is- interesting.

Titanium Dragon
2008-02-29, 08:53 AM
Well, he can buff your healing surge... but no direct heal. That -is- interesting.

This was actually rather what I expected. I suspect there will be some daily healing powers which don't use healing surges, but I suspect the vast majority of healing magic simply enhances healing surges or allows them to be used when they would otherwise be unavailable. This makes sense; you can't have per-encounter healing which doesn't use surges as otherwise you could fully heal the party between combats.

Matthew
2008-02-29, 08:58 AM
There is no practical difference between 6 hours and 21 hours of downtime due to fast-forwarding; the only "real difference" is a time-sensitive mission, and honestly, meh - generally time-sensitive missions either will allow either or won't allow either.

Well, I'm not arguing that 21 hours of downtime will solve the problem by itself, but to claim it makes 'no difference' because you fast forward time is to ignore Wandering Monsters (DMG, p. 77) and Spell Durations. Obviously, if characters are leaving the dungeon (by whatever means) it makes little difference how long rest periods are (unless there is a time limit built into the adventure).

Xefas
2008-02-29, 09:09 AM
The paladin definitely looks badass. His method of tanking is rather appropriate, I feel.

Paladin: "Attack Me"
Monster: "No" *miss* "Damn!"
Paladin: "Attack Me"
Monster: "No" *miss* "Damn!"
Paladin: "Attack Me"
Monster: "GAHH DIE BASTARD!"

Paladins make your life so annoying if you don't do what they say, that there is no alternative.

I'm hoping the other classes have different tanking mechanics to suit them. Perhaps someone who slows/immobilizes so that melee beasties can't close with your casters, or maybe someone that interposes himself directly between attacks. Lots of possibilities...

SamTheCleric
2008-02-29, 09:11 AM
The Fighter had a similar thing, -2 on attacks if they are attacking anyone but you... and if their attack of opportunity hit you... you stopped moving. No more just soaking up the damage to keep goin, the fighter has your number. :)

Duke of URL
2008-02-29, 09:45 AM
Okay... after reviewing the posted character sheets, some comments about what's there and some speculation about what's not (i.e., what was simplified for "quick play") --

Alignment: The sheets had some characters "Unaligned" and others "Good"; I'm going to assume this is a "quick play" simplification and not that the 9-step alignment grid is gone

Base Attack Bonus: Not present. This is likely a "quick play" simplification and that there is a formula for calculating attack bonuses that is simply factored into the attack/ability descriptions on the sheets.

Immediate Interrupt: Basically looks like a 3e immediate action -- except I don't think you lose your minor action on the next turn because of it. The naming of it further reinforces my perception of 4e as not WoW applied to D&D, but rather MtG applied to D&D*. All they need to do now is add the phrase "Tap to..." to the per-encounter or per-day abilities. :smallwink:

Basic Attacks: There seems to be little need to ever choose to make a basic attack on your turn. It looks like basic attacks are really just going to be used for opportunity attacks or other additional attacks granted from the use of certain powers/exploits/prayers.

Turn Undead: Damages undead and causes them to flee.

Lay On Hands: Use your healing surge to have target heal as if they had spent a surge. Very much in Paladin flavor here.

Scaling of Attacks and Damage: Since these are one-off sheets for demo play, there's no indication if or how the attack bonuses or damage values of various powers/exploits/prayers will scale with character level.

* - That said, someone really ought to come up with "card decks" for the players to keep their various abilities organized, especially the per-encounter and per-day abilities. I think it will be easier than referring to a character sheet. I also believe that the WotC website already has something similar for ToB abilities from 3.5 that you can download and print.

Rutee
2008-02-29, 09:48 AM
Okay... after reviewing the posted character sheets, some comments about what's there and some speculation about what's not (i.e., what was simplified for "quick play") --

Alignment: The sheets had some characters "Unaligned" and others "Good"; I'm going to assume this is a "quick play" simplification and not that the 9-step alignment grid is gone

Oh no, it's gone. There's 5 alignments now; Good, Evil, Neutral, Lawful, Chaotic. And those alignments are reserved for paragons of taht Alignment (See: BoED).

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-29, 10:30 AM
Oh no, it's gone. There's 5 alignments now; Good, Evil, Neutral, Lawful, Chaotic. And those alignments are reserved for paragons of taht Alignment (See: BoED).

Paragon of Neutrality? Who wants to roleplay Switzerland?

Tyger
2008-02-29, 10:37 AM
Paragon of Neutrality? Who wants to roleplay Switzerland?


The Swiss?

SamTheCleric
2008-02-29, 10:39 AM
Two interesting things from the podcast. Weapons now have accuracy as well as damage. A character profient with a weapon gains +2 to hit. Rapiers are more accurate than warhammers. When a dm builds an encounter he or she does so with an experience budget. Every monster is worth a flat exp amount. The dm knows that each encounter should have say 5000 xp so he or she uses that many monsters like one thousand kobolds.

I wonder what he means about accuracy... does a rapier have an inherent bonus to attack? Curious.

Duke of URL
2008-02-29, 10:41 AM
I wonder what he means about accuracy... does a rapier have an inherent bonus to attack? Curious.

That seems to be the impression. It's probably a trade off of accuracy vs. base damage potential.

Morty
2008-02-29, 11:05 AM
I wished they marked which abilites are from race and which are from class on the character sheet. Now that we have a good look at warlock's character sheet, it looks like half-elves get bonuses to diplomacy agin, even if Group Diplomacy seems a bit pointless.

Xefas
2008-02-29, 11:11 AM
I wished they marked which abilites are from race and which are from class on the character sheet. Now that we have a good look at warlock's character sheet, it looks like half-elves get bonuses to diplomacy agin, even if Group Diplomacy seems a bit pointless.

They do. I believe it is in the upper right corner of the ability description. It says "[Class] Feature", "[Class] Attack", "Feat Power", or "[Race] Racial Power".

Obviously [Class] and [Race] are replaced by the class or race in question.

Morty
2008-02-29, 11:14 AM
They do. I believe it is in the upper right corner of the ability description. It says "[Class] Feature", "[Class] Attack", "Feat Power", or "[Race] Racial Power".

Obviously [Class] and [Race] are replaced by the class or race in question.

That's not what I mean. Yes, powers are marked wheter they're from race, class or selected, but for example "Prime shot" at warlock's sheet isn't, and I'd like to know if it's warlock's or half-elf's class feature. I gues it's half-elven, but who knows?
Also, I wonder how do weapon sizes look in 4ed.
Another also, Amanuator is back. It's either a FR game or FR deities are massively incorporated into Core pantheon, as the paladin serves Tymora.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-29, 11:30 AM
I can't read the sheets! EErrrg!

Little_Rudo
2008-02-29, 11:35 AM
I can't read the sheets! EErrrg!

I had the same problem earlier this morning. There's a little magnifying glass button that zooms in and lets you look at everything closer.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-29, 11:41 AM
That's not what I mean. Yes, powers are marked wheter they're from race, class or selected, but for example "Prime shot" at warlock's sheet isn't, and I'd like to know if it's warlock's or half-elf's class feature. I gues it's half-elven, but who knows?
Also, I wonder how do weapon sizes look in 4ed.
Another also, Amanuator is back. It's either a FR game or FR deities are massively incorporated into Core pantheon, as the paladin serves Tymora.

I believe it is FR, something was mentioned of it being a Living Forgotten Realms mod...

Morty
2008-02-29, 11:43 AM
I believe it is FR, something was mentioned of it being a Living Forgotten Realms mod...

I see. In fact, there's even a picture of Ed Greenwood there. Looks like among the world-shaking changes in FR there's return of Amanuator.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-29, 12:07 PM
I see. In fact, there's even a picture of Ed Greenwood there. Looks like among the world-shaking changes in FR there's return of Amanuator.

Honestly though... I think that's kinda cool. :smallbiggrin:

If they bring Moander back too....

Matthew
2008-02-29, 12:57 PM
Anyone tried calculating Armour Class yet? The example Character sheets present some interesting numbers:

Halfling Paladin AC 20
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Plate Armour, Heavy Shield,

Human Cleric AC 16
Attributes: Dexterity 10 (+0)
Equipment: Mail Armour,

Dwarf Fighter AC 19
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Scale Armour, Heavy Shield,

Eladrin Ranger AC 17
Attributes: Dexterity 18 (+4)
Equipment: Hide Armour

Tiefling Wizard AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 14 (+2)
Equipment:

Half Elf Warlock AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 11 (+0)
[I]Equipment:[/] Leather Armour

ColdBrew
2008-02-29, 01:00 PM
Paladins make your life so annoying if you don't do what they say, that there is no alternative.
Hey, just like having one in the party! :smallbiggrin:

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-29, 01:26 PM
Does 1/2 level go towards AC, like Fort, Ref and Will? Would make sense and I seem to remember this from somewhere...

kc0bbq
2008-02-29, 01:44 PM
This was actually rather what I expected. I suspect there will be some daily healing powers which don't use healing surges, but I suspect the vast majority of healing magic simply enhances healing surges or allows them to be used when they would otherwise be unavailable. This makes sense; you can't have per-encounter healing which doesn't use surges as otherwise you could fully heal the party between combats.It does seem to allow you to use more healing surges than you otherwise would (i.e. only second wind in combat), and really, even in the case of the the ranger with a healing surge value of 5 (IIRC), that's 1d6 + 5 + 4, so at the very least it's half your hp.

The system seems to get rid of the core problem with D&D to this point - surviving to second level where your survival ability essentially doubles. Level 1s are still fragile, but not wet tissue paper fragile. It also gets around a lot of cheese, such as everyone carrying around bundles of cure light wounds wands until mid levels. Seems to me to be fairly elegent, providing a taste of power and survivability at low levels without overdoing it. I've moved from skeptical yet hopeful to cautiously optimistic.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-29, 03:36 PM
Tiefling Wizard AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 14 (+2)
Equipment:
AC 15, with no armor, Dexterity 14... and Int 20.
Maybe I'm leaping to assumptions, here, but the wizard getting INT instead of DEX to AC would be the only thing that makes that number. Maybe unarmored, or lightly armored (or even all!) characters will be able to get INT to AC instead of DEX if they want, i.e. if it's higher?


Half Elf Warlock AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 11 (+0)
[I]Equipment:[/] Leather Armour
Going from the above, the warlock would be getting +2 from INT, putting Leather Armor at +3? Or +2 from leather armor, +1 from some kind of natural-armor racial ability (since the Ranger's hide armor seems to be +3)?

Artanis
2008-02-29, 04:26 PM
Anyone tried calculating Armour Class yet? The example Character sheets present some interesting numbers:

Halfling Paladin AC 20
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Plate Armour, Heavy Shield,

Human Cleric AC 16
Attributes: Dexterity 10 (+0)
Equipment: Mail Armour,

Dwarf Fighter AC 19
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Scale Armour, Heavy Shield,

Eladrin Ranger AC 17
Attributes: Dexterity 18 (+4)
Equipment: Hide Armour

Tiefling Wizard AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 14 (+2)
Equipment:

Half Elf Warlock AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 11 (+0)
[I]Equipment:[/] Leather Armour
Hrm.

Going on the Ranger, something has to work differently than in 3e. All the other sheets work if AC is 13 + Dex mod + some value from armor/shield, and they all have different values from their armor. But if that's the case, then the Ranger would be getting literally nothing out of his Hide Armor. So unless "Hide Armor" really is just for show (which I seriously doubt), either we get 1) different base ACs for different classes, or 2) Different stats adding to AC. So there's a good chance that Rachel Lorelei is correct.

I'll see if I can infer anything more from the numbers.



Edit: I wonder...maybe something about power source?

Starbuck_II
2008-02-29, 04:29 PM
AC 15, with no armor, Dexterity 14... and Int 20.
Maybe I'm leaping to assumptions, here, but the wizard getting INT instead of DEX to AC would be the only thing that makes that number. Maybe unarmored, or lightly armored (or even all!) characters will be able to get INT to AC instead of DEX if they want, i.e. if it's higher?


Going from the above, the warlock would be getting +2 from INT, putting Leather Armor at +3? Or +2 from leather armor, +1 from some kind of natural-armor racial ability (since the Ranger's hide armor seems to be +3)?

Hmm, I'm looking at defenses. I suspect your Base Reflex bonus from Class (similar to Saga) adds to AC, but I'm stumped how they calculated that...

Warlock
Defenses:
Armor: 15--10 base -3 Reflex=2 from Leather
Fort: 13-13= 0 from class
Reflex: 13-10=3 from class?
Will: 15 -14= +1 class?
I thought wisdom adds to Will, but he has 8 (-1). If we assume Charisma or Wisdom (your choice) adds: than 18 (+4).

So the Warlock seems to gan +1 Will/+3 Ref/+0 Fort at level one.

Paladin:
Defenses:
Armor: 20 -10 base -2 shield -4 armor -4 Reflex ... I probably calculated wrong... or Plate isn't good AC
Fort: 13 -11=2 from class?
Reflex: 14-11=3 from class? Or 2 and small size adds 1?
Will: 16-13=3 from class?

So Paladin is +2 Fort/+2 Ref/+3 Will, okay, the Paladin has funky saves...

Cleric:
Defenses:
Armor: 16 -10 base -2 Ref =4 from armor, so chainmail is +4.
Fort: 13 -11=2 from class?
Reflex: 12-10= 2 from class?
Will: 17-14= 3 from class?

So Cleric is +2 Fort/+2 Ref/+3 Will, the Warlock base save suck in comparison!

Fighter:
Defenses:
Armor: 19-10 base -2 from shield -2 Ref=5 from scale? That seems decent.
Fort: 16 -14= 2 from class
Reflex: 12-11= 1 from class
Will: 12-12= 0.

So Fighter is +2 Fort/+1 Ref/+0 Will; Warlock and fighter have lowest base saves.


Ranger:

Defenses:
Armor: 17-10 base -3(2?) hide=4 Ref if Hide 2 or 3 Ref if Hide 3. Hmm, does armor have limit to Ref adding?
Fort: 13 -10=3 from class?
Reflex: 15-14 =1 from class
Will: 13-12=1 from class

So Ranger is +3 Fort/+1 Ref/+1 Will; okay, Warlock and Fighter still behind in saves.

Wizard:
Defenses:
Armor: 15 -5 Ref=0 (no armor)
Fort: 10 -0= 0 from class
Reflex: 15-2= 3 from class
Will: 13-1=2 from class

So is +0 Fort/+3 Ref/+2 Will; okay, Warlock, Fighter, and Wizard are behind in saves...

Still unsure if armor blocks Ref, but it seems to for Paladin and Ranger... but if we follow past armor: the Ranger should be in leather if he has high Dex.

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-29, 04:45 PM
In the Rogue Preview, it stated that their defense bonus was +2 to Reflex, making it much worse than all the others you listed. I am guessing that something racial is effecting the defense bonuses, or something feat-based perhaps, plus class stuff. That would account for those weird +1 bonuses and +3 bonuses you have listed.

Artanis
2008-02-29, 04:48 PM
I think I may have figured it out.

If Martial classes get DEX to AC, and Arcane classes get INT to AC, and Divine classes get WIS to AC, we get:

Warlock AC = 10+INT+Leather
Wizard AC = 10+INT+none
Cleric AC = 10+WIS+Chainmail
Paladin AC = 10+WIS+Plate&Shield
Fighter AC = 10+DEX+Scale&Shield
Ranger AC = 10+DEX+Hide

That puts:
None = +0
Leather = +3
Hide = +3
Chainmail = +4
Plate&Shield = +7
Scale&Shield = +8

For the most part, this is exactly what you'd expect, with the exception of Plate vs. Scale. However, in the "Sneak Attack!" article, it mentions that a Rogue gets +2 to his Reflex defense. I'm betting that a Fighter gets a +2 to his AC defense which is already added into the sheets, and thus not mentioned on them. If that's the case, we get:

None = +0
Leather = +3
Hide = +3
Chainmail = +4
Scale&Shield = +6
Palte&Shield = +7

Which is relative values that look too reasonable to be coincidental.

So my assessment of the numbers is that the equipment is worth the above values, that Fighters get +2 AC just for being fighters, and that the stat that adds to your AC depends on your power source (DEX for Martial, INT for Arcane, WIS for Divine).

Starbuck_II
2008-02-29, 05:02 PM
I think I may have figured it out.

If Martial classes get DEX to AC, and Arcane classes get INT to AC, and Divine classes get WIS to AC, we get:

Warlock AC = 10+INT+Leather
Wizard AC = 10+INT+none
Cleric AC = 10+WIS+Chainmail
Paladin AC = 10+WIS+Plate&Shield
Fighter AC = 10+DEX+Scale&Shield
Ranger AC = 10+DEX+Hide

That puts:
None = +0
Leather = +3
Hide = +3
Chainmail = +4
Plate&Shield = +7
Scale&Shield = +8

For the most part, this is exactly what you'd expect, with the exception of Plate vs. Scale. However, in the "Sneak Attack!" article, it mentions that a Rogue gets +2 to his Reflex defense. I'm betting that a Fighter gets a +2 to his AC defense which is already added into the sheets, and thus not mentioned on them. If that's the case, we get:

None = +0
Leather = +3
Hide = +3
Chainmail = +4
Scale&Shield = +6
Palte&Shield = +7

Which is relative values that look too reasonable to be coincidental.

So my assessment of the numbers is that the equipment is worth the above values, that Fighters get +2 AC just for being fighters, and that the stat that adds to your AC depends on your power source (DEX for Martial, INT for Arcane, WIS for Divine).

That still doesn't explain why the Ranger wore Hide when he could wear leather, does it?

Artanis
2008-02-29, 05:12 PM
That still doesn't explain why the Ranger wore Hide when he could wear leather, does it?
*shrug* There could be some other benefit that we aren't seeing.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-29, 06:27 PM
On WotC board, they think:
Fort = 10 + better of CON or STR bonus
Reflex = 10 + better of DEX or INT bonus
Will = 10 + better of WIS or CHA bonus
AC = reflex + armor

Just speculation, but it does explain the discrepency.

Also: They think race might add AC. The Cleric and Ranger gained this (being human).
Warlock
Fort +0/Ref +1/Will +1

Paladin
Fort +0 (+1 Size)/Ref +1 (+2 shield +1 Size)/Will +2

Cleric
Fort +0 (+1 Race)/Ref +0 (+1 Race)/Will +2 (+1 Race)

Fighter
Fort +1 (+1 Race)/Ref +1 (+2 Shield)/Will +0

Ranger
Fort +1/Ref +1/Will +0 (+1 Race)

Wizard
Fort +0/Ref +0/Will +2


But again, we don't know.

Matthew
2008-02-29, 07:23 PM
Yeah, that's close to what I was thinking, so let's give it another go:

Halfling Paladin AC 20
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1), Intelligence 9 (-1)
Equipment: Plate Armour (+7), Heavy Shield (+2),

Human Cleric AC 16
Attributes: Dexterity 10 (+0), Intelligence 12 (+1)
Equipment: Mail Armour (+5),

Dwarf Fighter AC 19
Attributes: Dexterity 12 (+1), Intelligence 10 (+0)
Equipment: Scale Armour (+6), Heavy Shield (+2),

Eladrin Ranger AC 17
Attributes: Dexterity 18 (+4), Intelligence 12 (+1),
Equipment: Hide Armour (+3),

Tiefling Wizard AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 14 (+2), Intelligence 20 (+5),
Equipment:

Half Elf Warlock AC 15
Attributes: Dexterity 11 (+0), Intelligence 15 (+2)
Equipment: Leather Armour (+3),

The only surprise in that lot would then be the Scale Armour granting +6, but the +2 could well be a Class Feature of the Fighter or Race Feature of the Dwarf. Interestingly, it is possible that the Halfling is using the worst penalty and best bonus (something I have long advocated), and getting +1 for Small Size.

That would work out with saves as follows:

Halfling Paladin: +1 Fortitude, +3/+4 Reflex, +3 Willpower
Dwarf Fighter: +2 Fortitude, +2 Reflex, +0/+1 Willpower
Human Cleric: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +3 Willpower
Eladrin Ranger: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Willpower
Tiefling Wizard: +0 Fortitude, +0 Reflex, +2/3 Willpower
Half Elf Warlock: +0 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1/+2 Willpower

Indon
2008-02-29, 07:44 PM
Looks as if there's a class bonus to AC.

Not surprising, given saves and AC have been merged. Saves and AC probably progress in a similar fashion now.

Matthew
2008-03-01, 08:53 AM
Took another look at the Character sheets, it looks to me like Daggers and Short Swords may get +1 to hit.

Halfling Paladin
Attributes: Strength 14 (+2), Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Short Sword (Melee +5), Hammer (Melee +4, Missile +3)

Human Cleric
Attributes: Strength 14 (+2), Dexterity 10 (+0)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +5, Missile +3)

Tiefling Wizard
Attributes: Strength 10 (+0), Dexterity 14 (+2)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +3, Missile +5)

Half Elf Warlock
Attributes: Strength 10 (+0), Dexterity 11 (+0)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +3, Missile +3)

Anybody know of any corroboration of this anywhere?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 09:10 AM
Must be that accuracy thing that he was talking about (how a rapier is more accurate than a warhammer)

A simple +1 for accurate weapons seems about right.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-01, 09:36 AM
Took another look at the Character sheets, it looks to me like Daggers and Short Swords may get +1 to hit.

Halfling Paladin
Attributes: Strength 14 (+2), Dexterity 12 (+1)
Equipment: Short Sword (Melee +5), Hammer (Melee +4, Missile +3)

Human Cleric
Attributes: Strength 14 (+2), Dexterity 10 (+0)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +5, Missile +3)

Tiefling Wizard
Attributes: Strength 10 (+0), Dexterity 14 (+2)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +3, Missile +5)

Half Elf Warlock
Attributes: Strength 10 (+0), Dexterity 11 (+0)
Equipment: Dagger (Melee +3, Missile +3)

Anybody know of any corroboration of this anywhere?

I think daggers give +3, how else does the Warlock/Wizard have +3 in melee?
In ranged, you add dex so Wizard has +5.

So Weapons: Accuracy (if proficient)
1) Dagger (melee/ranged) +3, Wizard not proficent?
2) Short Swords (melee) +3
3) Throwing Hammer (melee/ranged) +2
4) Warhammer (melee) +4? (he has only +2 Str)
5) Handaxe (melee) +4? (only +2 Str)
6) Longsword (melee) +2
7) Longbow (ranged) +3
8) Mace (melee) +2

Matthew
2008-03-01, 10:06 AM
I'll show you...

Paladin BAB 2, Strength 2, Short Sword 1

Cleric BAB 2, Strength 2, Dagger 1

Wizard BAB 2, Dagger 1

Warlock BAB 2, Dagger 1

Starbuck_II
2008-03-01, 10:12 AM
I'll show you...

Paladin BAB 2, Strength 2, Short Sword 1

Cleric BAB 2, Strength 2, Dagger 1

Wizard BAB 2, Dagger 1

Warlock BAB 2, Dagger 1

How does a level 1 person have 2 BAB?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-01, 10:18 AM
Paladin BAB 1, Strength 2, Short Sword 2
Paladin BAB 1, Strength 2, Hammer 1
Paladin BAB 1, Dexterity 1, Hammer 1

Cleric BAB 0, Strength 2, Dagger 3
Cleric BAB 0, Dexterity 0, Dagger 3

Wizard BAB 0, Strength 0, Dagger 3
Wizard BAB 0, Dexterity 2, Dagger 3

Warlock BAB 0, Dagger 3

Flanking_Bonus
2008-03-01, 10:34 AM
Even for 9.95 dollars a month they better be providing some pretty robust content. not just 1 dragon article every few weeks and access to their choppy lame graphics plain background version of fantasy grounds.

Matthew
2008-03-01, 10:34 AM
How does a level 1 person have 2 BAB?

Who knows? It's 4e, not D20, characters have more Hit Points, no reason they can't have more BAB. I'm just looking at the difference. As Sstoopidtallkid says, it could be the case that the weapons have more to do with it.



Paladin BAB 1, Strength 2, Short Sword 2
Paladin BAB 1, Strength 2, Hammer 1
Paladin BAB 1, Dexterity 1, Hammer 1

Cleric BAB 0, Strength 2, Dagger 3
Cleric BAB 0, Dexterity 0, Dagger 3

Wizard BAB 0, Strength 0, Dagger 3
Wizard BAB 0, Dexterity 2, Dagger 3

Warlock BAB 0, Dagger 3

Interesting; you don't take the Cleric's Mace into account; I suppose you consider that to be contributing 2? I think that's unlikely, but possible. I should probably have mentioned how the other characters factor into this:

Dwarf Fighter
War Hammer: or [BAB 1, Strength 3 War Hammer 1, DWT 1] or [BAB 2, Strength 3, War Hammer 1]
Hand Axe: [BAB 2, Strength 3, DWT 1] or [BAB 1, Strength 3 Hand Axe 1, DWT 1] or [BAB 2, Strength 3, Hand Axe 1]

*Dwarven Weapon Training 1 (looks like specialisation to judge by the damage, i.e. +1/+2)

[B]Eladrin Ranger
Long Bow: [BAB 2, Dexterity 4] or [BAB 1, Dexterity 4, Long Bow 1]
Long Sword: [BAB 2, Strength 2] or [BAB 1, Dexterity 4, Long Sword 1]

So, it could be that all characters start off with BAB 2 or it could be that all weapons except Daggers and Short Swords grant +1/+2.

Alternatively, Dwarven Weapon training might only grant +2 Damage, meaning that the Fighter starts off with one more BAB.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 10:47 AM
Going to try and decipher the magic items he just posted...


+1 Frost Warhammer - Level 3
This is a good weapon for a fighter to wield.
Enhancement Bonus: Attack rolls and Damage Rolls with weapon.
Critical: +1d6 Cold Damage
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Activate when you hit with this weapon. The target takes +1d10 cold damage and is slowed until the end of your next turn.


+1 Staff of the War Mage - Level 3
This is a perfect implement for a wizard.
Enhancement Bonus: Attack rolls and Damage rolls with the implement.
Critical: +1d8 damage
Power (Daily): Free Action. Activate when you use a power with a burst or blast effect. Increase the size of the burst or blast by 1.


+1 Delver's Leather Armor - Level 3
This armor is good for a character in light armor, such as a warlock.
Armor: Any
Enhancement Bonus: AC
Power (Encounter): Free Action. Gain a +2 bonus to a saving throw.


+1 Amulet of Health - Level 3
This amulet is suitable for a character of any class.
Body Slot: Neck
Enhancement Bonus: Fortitude, Reflex and Will Defenses
Property: Gain resist poison 5


Ironskin Belt - Level 5
This belt is suitable for a character of any class.
Body Slot: Waist
Power (Encounter): Minor Action. Gain resist weapons 5 until the end of your next turn.


Gauntlets of Ogre Power - Level 5
These gauntlets are good for a fighter, ranger or paladin.
Body Slot: Hands
Property: Gain a +1 bonus to Athletics checks and Strength ability checks (but not Strength attacks).
Power (Daily): Free Action. Activate when you hit with a melee attack. Add a +5 power bonus to the damage roll.

AlterForm
2008-03-01, 10:58 AM
Magic Items 1

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/MagicItems1.png



-Level 3
-"This is a good weapon for a fighter to wield"
-Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls with weapon
-Critical: +1d6 cold damage
-Power(Encounter): Free Action. Activate when you hit with this weapon. The target takes +1d10 cold damage and is slowed until the end of your next turn. (cold)




-Level 3
-"This is a perfect implement for a wizard"
-Implement(Staff)
-Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls with implement
-Critical: +1d8 damage
-Power(Daily): Free Action. Activate when you use a power with a burst of blast effect. Increase the size of the burst or blast by 1




-Level 3
-Armor: Any
-Enhancement: AC
-Power(Encounter): Free Action. Gain a +2 power bonus to a saving throw




-Level 3
-Body Slot: Neck
-Enhancemnt: Fort, Reflex, and will Defences
-Property: Gain resist poison 5




-Level 5
-Body slot: waist
-Power(Encounter): Minor Action. Gain resist weapons 5 until the end of your next turn




-Level5
-Body slot: hands
-Property: Gain a +1 item bonus to athletics checks and Strength ability checks (but not strength attacks)
-Power(Daily): Free Action. Activate when you hit with a melee attack. Add a +5 power bonus to the damage roll.



Observations and magic items 2 to be edited in momentarily.

[EDIT]: Semi-ninja'd. I'll work on Magic Items 2, then?

Magic Items 2

http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP361wbd5tWolQXe0G_400.jpg



-Level 2
-Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls with weapon
-Critical: +1d12 damage


Nothing interesting here. Nice critical die, though.



-Level 2
-Implement(Holy Symbol)
-Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls with implement
-Critical: +1d6 damage (?)
-Power(Milestone): Free(?) Action. Activate when you use a power that heals damage. (?) Add +1d6 to the healing provided.
-Recharge: Milestone


I wasn't entirely sure I read this one right. Anyone care to confirm?
Odd that you can attack with your holy symbol though. Also the only item to recharge every milestone, as opposed to every day or encounter.



-Level 2
-Enhancement: AC
-Property: Gain a +1 item bonus to Endurance checks.
-Power(Daily): Free Action. Regain hit points equal to your healing surge value. You don't spend a healing surge when you use this power.


Endurance Checks? Interesting. Also effectively gives you a free healing surge.



-Level 2
-Body slot: Neck
-Enhancement: Fort, Reflex, and Will defenses.
-Power(Daily): Minor action. Gain resist all 5 until the start of your next turn.


"Resist all 5"? Anyone else think this means you take 5 less points of damage from any source of damage?



-Level 2
-Body slot: waist
-Property: You gain a +1(?) item bonus to the healing provided by your healing surges.


I think it says +1. I had to puzzle this out based on context. Starting here I was wondering how the bonuses system will work. Are we still tracking several types of mini-bonuses? Didn't they say we wouldn't have to? Not that it'd be hard to track +1 extra HP every healing surge you use.



-Level 3
-Body slot: arm
-Enhancement: Armor Class and Reflex Defense
-Power(Encounter): Standard Action. You and an adjacent ally gain resist all 5 until the end of your next turn.


Right away: Shield EB applies to Reflex defense. Kudos to whoever called it.
Also, looks like an awesome item for a Defender. I think this is my favorite item of the bunch.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 11:00 AM
Haha, yeah... get the #2... I was typing out the first one and we both posted it.

You type faster than me :P

Matthew
2008-03-01, 11:04 AM
One of you could try deciphering these: Monster Stats (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats)

Human Guard and Human Bandit (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats/photo#5172538003332480482) look readable.

Hobgoblin Stat blocks (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats/photo#5172538093526793778)

Skeletons (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats/photo#5172538213785878178)

Black Dragon (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats/photo#5172538291095289570)

Human Beserker, Mage and Chain Fighter (http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/MonsterStats/photo#5172538381289602882)

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 11:06 AM
Here comes a human guard stat block!


Human Guard - Level 1 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid - xp 100
Initiative: +4 Senses: Perception +5
HP: 31 Bloodies: 15
AC 16; Fortitude 14, Reflex 13, Will 12
Speed: 5
Halberd (standard at will) Weapon
Reach 2: +8 vs AC; 1d10 + 2 damage and the target is marked until the end of the human guard's next turn.
Powerful Strike (Standard, recharge 5 6) Weapon
Requires Halberd; reach 1; +8 vs AC; 1d10+6 damage and the target is knocked prone.
Crossbow (Standard at will) Weapon
Range 15/30; +7 vs AC; 1d8+1 Damage
Alignment: Any Languages: Common
Skills: Streetwise +6
Str 15 (+2) Dex 14 (+2) Wis 11 (+0)
Con 15 (+2) Int 10 (+0) Cha 12 (+1)
Equipment: Chainmail, halberd, Crossbow with 20 bolts.


Human Bandit - Level 2 Skirmisher
Medium humanoid - xp 125
Initiative: +6 Senses: Perception +1
HP: 30 Bloodies: 15
AC 16; Fortitude 12, Reflex 14, Will 12
Speed: 6
Mace (standard at will) Weapon
+4 vs AC; 1d18 + 1 damage and the human bandit shifts 1 square.
Dagger (standard at will) weapon
Range 5/10; +5 vs AC; 1d6+1 damage
Dazling Strike (Standard encounter) Weapon
Requires Mace; +4 vs AC; 1d8+1 Damage, the target is dazed until the end of the human bandit's next turn and the human bandit shifts 1 square.
Combat Advantage
The human bandit deal an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged attacks against any target it has combat advantage against.
Alignment: Any Languages: Common
Skills: Stealth +5, Streetwise +7, Thievery +5
Str 12 (+1) Dex 17 (+4) Wis 11 (+0)
Con 13 (+1) Int 10 (+0) Cha 12 (+1)
Equipment: Leather armor, mace, 4 daggers.


Young Black Dragon - Level 4 Solo Lurker
Large natural magical beast (aquatic, dragon) XP 875
Initiative +11 Senses: Perception +9; darkvision
HP 280; Bloodied 140; see also bloodied breath
AC 24; Fortitude 19, Reflex 21, Will 18
Resist: 15 Acid
Saving throws: +5
Speed 7, Fly 7 (clumsy), Overland flight 10, Swim 7
Action Points: 2
m Bite (Standard; at will) - Acid
Reach 2; +10 vs ACl 1d6 +3 damage and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends)
m Claw (Standard; at will)
Reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d4 +3 damage
M Double Attack (Standard; at will)
The dragon makes two claw attacks
M Tail Slash (Immediate reaction, when a melee attack misses the dragon; at will)
The dragon uses its tail to attack the enemy that missed it; reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d6 +4 damage; and the target is pushed 1 square.
C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) Acid
Close blast 5; +7 vs reflex; 1d12 +3 acid damage and the target takes ongoing 5 acid damage and takes a -4 penalty to ac (Save ends both)
C Bloodied Breath (Immediate reaction, when fist bloodied; encounter) - Acid
The dragon's breath weapon recharges automatically, and the dragon uses it immediately.
C Cloud of Darkness (Standard; sustain minor; recharge 3 4 5 6) - Zone
Close burst 2; this power creates a zone of darkness that remains in place until the end of the dragon's next turn. The zone blocks line of sight for all creatures except the dragon. Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded.
C Frightful Presence (standard; encounter) - Fear
Close Burst 5; targets enemies; +5 vs Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon's next turn. Aftereffect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).

Alignment: Evil Languages: Draconic
Skills Nature +9; Stealth +17
Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2)

AlterForm
2008-03-01, 11:20 AM
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/StillDND.png

Whaddya know. It's still DnD. :smallbiggrin:

In case some of you are crazy, I consider "nerd" a postive term, not a derogatory one. Go nerds! Of which one is I am.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 11:21 AM
Alterform wins the internet for today.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 11:24 AM
If I were a betting woman, I'd put a few bucks on Holy Symbols also being ranged attack weapons to mete out your God's justice. Either that or some sort of WH40kish deal where you worship your god by smiting their enemies >.>

Morty
2008-03-01, 11:25 AM
Hm. Magic items looks good, except I'm generally against activated magic items for non-mages.
Enemies don't look bad either, but I personally don't see the point in NPC classes after few first levels. However, I'll repeat that humanoid monsters as NPCs is a good thing until my tongue falls off.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 11:33 AM
Yeah, myth and fiction totally support only magi ever activating patently magic things. Just ask Ali Baba.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 11:34 AM
Look at the dragon's stats... something is definitely ... different... :smallconfused:

Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2)

Morty
2008-03-01, 11:38 AM
Yeah, myth and fiction totally support only magi ever activating patently magic things. Just ask Ali Baba.

I said "generally", mind you, not "OMG they're evil and must be killed with fire". I'm fine with activated items from time to time, but on those character sheets majority of them are activated.
That aside, I fail to see how "it happens in myths and fiction" proves anything. D&D is neither a myth nor book.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 11:40 AM
I said "generally", mind you, not "OMG they're evil and must be killed with fire". I'm fine with activated items from time to time, but on those character sheets majority of them are activated.
That aside, I fail to see how "it happens in myths and fiction" proves anything. D&D is neither a myth nor book.

...You're not seriously asking why "There's fictional precedent within the fantasies DnD emulates" makes a difference in the way DnD does things, are you?

KIDS
2008-03-01, 11:47 AM
Indeed. I have always thought that while D&D could be enforced in all its rules entirety including:
- spears not being usable one handed
- bards always being nonlawful
- inspire courage always coming in package with 50 spells and other abilities
- and tons of other illogical, restrictive or "meh" things we daily ignore just because the game is written that way

So, while theorethically you could enforce D&D like that and say "this is D&D, we don't draw clues from anyone else", I would be adamantly against that. In my mind, D&D is so successful because its rules are able to model a wide variety of different low-to-high fantasy worlds and stories, and its rules should be leaning more on the "you can do that" than "you can't do that" side. But that might be just me...

Kurald Galain
2008-03-01, 11:55 AM
I think there's a different issue at hand here - and that is that a, say, tenth-level character could easily have a dozen equipped items that have activated effects, as well as over a dozen activated powers, feats, and so forth.

Now the game becomes not one of striding heroism, but of who can figure out the best power combinations and in what fashion they stack, and keep that in mind during intensive combat encounters. It seems that this would either (1) needlessly bog down action scenes, or (2) require a computer to run properly, while simultaneously (3) making min-maxing munchkinism a very important part of gameplay again.

Morty
2008-03-01, 11:57 AM
...You're not seriously asking why "There's fictional precedent within the fantasies DnD emulates" makes a difference in the way DnD does things, are you?

I'm asking why it should change the fact that I don't like activated magic items for warriors being too prevalent. I'm annoyed when someone says "I don't like X" and someone responds "It happened in Y classical book/myth, so stuff yourself". When they said that magic items are going to be less common, I hoped that not every character will be a little wizard on his/her own.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-01, 12:05 PM
When they said that magic items are going to be less common, I hoped that not every character will be a little wizard on his/her own.

When they said that magic items are going to be less common, they also specified that "less common" would mean "more than a dozen per character" :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-03-01, 12:06 PM
Now the game becomes not one of striding heroism, but of who can figure out the best power combinations and in what fashion they stack, and keep that in mind during intensive combat encounters. It seems that this would either (1) needlessly bog down action scenes, or (2) require a computer to run properly, while simultaneously (3) making min-maxing munchkinism a very important part of gameplay again.

Is this a counter-claim to WotC's claim that they're removing munchkinism or lessening it, or is this an attempt to say "J'ACCUSE!" about munchkinism when it's the status quo? If the former, rock on, since I was hoping they'd lessen it a bit too. I suppose it's just not possible to make ph4t lewtz less relevant while you have a ton of slots to equip them in and actively encourage their regular purchase.


I'm asking why it should change the fact that I don't like activated magic items for warriors being too prevalent. I'm annoyed when someone says "I don't like X" and someone responds "It happened in Y classical book/myth, so stuff yourself".
Well, sorry, but it just seems like more have/have-not idiocy that tends to happen about casters. Especially since all your saying is "Shouldn't" and not saying Why.

Also, FYI, every character was going to be a "Little Wizard" anyway.

Morty
2008-03-01, 12:18 PM
When they said that magic items are going to be less common, they also specified that "less common" would mean "more than a dozen per character"

Well, it's true that "less magic items than in 3ed D&D" can mean preety much every system where you don't get blind after using Detect Magic on high-level character.



Well, sorry, but it just seems like more have/have-not idiocy that tends to happen about casters. Especially since all your saying is "Shouldn't" and not saying Why.

Well, my dislike for use-acivated magic items for non-casters is utterly personal, and I don't belive I've said otherwise anywhere. It annoys me when a low-level warrior who doesn't know a single thing about magic can rub the clasp on his cloak and generate a magic effect. Yeah, it worked for Alladin, Ali Baba and with Seven-Mile boots, but I don't think it fits low-level D&D.


Also, FYI, every character was going to be a "Little Wizard" anyway.

In what respect, exactly?

Rutee
2008-03-01, 12:32 PM
Well, my dislike for use-acivated magic items for non-casters is utterly personal, and I don't belive I've said otherwise anywhere. It annoys me when a low-level warrior who doesn't know a single thing about magic can rub the clasp on his cloak and generate a magic effect. Yeah, it worked for Alladin, Ali Baba and with Seven-Mile boots, but I don't think it fits low-level D&D.
I'm still not sure on the problem here. I doubt you're implying that the fighter can't remember after being told by the person who made it "Rub the clasp on the cloak to make it work", or "Say <Gibberish> to make your boots work", but the problem is specifically non-magi, so it's not with the items themselves. I can't see any other interpretation.



In what respect, exactly?

Primarily, I'm thinking of other systems where characters use purely martial focuses of power to pull off effects that would, in DnD, patently be referred to as "Magic".

Morty
2008-03-01, 01:15 PM
I'm still not sure on the problem here. I doubt you're implying that the fighter can't remember after being told by the person who made it "Rub the clasp on the cloak to make it work", or "Say <Gibberish> to make your boots work", but the problem is specifically non-magi, so it's not with the items themselves. I can't see any other interpretation.

Sure, the fighter can remember the method, but I'm leery about magic actively working without user being a caster and using a spell/prayer(this doesn't apply to permanent items, such as +x sword of something). It's only a minor peeve, but in 4ed such items seem to be prevalent. Then again, magic items are the part of D&D I dislike the most.


Primarily, I'm thinking of other systems where characters use purely martial focuses of power to pull off effects that would, in DnD, patently be referred to as "Magic".

Yeah, but those are other systems. In D&D, fighters don't perform feats that are nigh-supernatural until high levels.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-01, 01:19 PM
Yeah, but those are other systems. In D&D, fighters don't perform feats that are nigh-supernatural until high levels.

Not if Fighter takes Mage slayer feats, Exalted Feats, or Psionics feats those are supernatural. Achievable by 3rd (Mage slayer require multiclass in Wizard or another way to get enough ranks).

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 01:50 PM
Skill-based encounters
In our sembia adventure we just had a whole series of skill checks that followed our whole party as we were chased by the town guards. Barrels overturned. Walls climbed. People bull****ted with streetwise. Our victories and defeats all led to a final conclusion. It was awesome.

... must... have... more... details....

Rutee
2008-03-01, 01:53 PM
Yeah, but those are other systems. In D&D, fighters don't perform feats that are nigh-supernatural until high levels.
They seem to now :smallbiggrin:

Or at least, hopefully it will be more prevalent.

Artanis
2008-03-01, 02:18 PM
Ooh, magic items.

...sideways magic items, but still :smalltongue:

ImperiousLeader
2008-03-01, 02:34 PM
Look at the dragon's stats... something is definitely ... different... :smallconfused:

Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2)

You now get half your level on ability checks. Take 2 off all those bonuses and they make sense.

So a 6th level fighter with 16 STR has a +6 STR mod.

Matthew
2008-03-01, 02:41 PM
Here's one:


Hobgoblin Soldier (Level 3 Soldier)
Medium Natural Humanoid (Goblin)
Hit Points: 47 (Bloodied 23)
Defences: Armour Class 20, Fortitude 18, Reflex 16, Willpower 16,
Attacks: Flail +7 vs AC, 1D10+4 damage [Target is slowed and marked until end of Hobgoblin Soldier's next turn.
Abilities: Formation Strike, Hobgoblin Resistance, Phalanx Soldier,
Speed: 5
Alignment: Evil
Languages: Common, Goblin
Attributes: Strength 19 (+5), Dexterity 14 (+3), Constitution 14 (+3), Intelligence 15 (+3), Wisdom 11 (+1), Charisma 10 (+1),
Skills: Athletics +12, Stealth +10
Equipment: Scale Armour, Heavy Shield, Flail

Flanking_Bonus
2008-03-01, 04:40 PM
In our sembia adventure we just had a whole series of skill checks that followed our whole party as we were chased by the town guards. Barrels overturned. Walls climbed. People bull****ted with streetwise. Our victories and defeats all led to a final conclusion. It was awesome.

Sounds like any action scene in any 3.X game with a solid DM.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 04:44 PM
Except you'd rely more on ad-hoc judgements, and there'd be no exp guidelines.

Indon
2008-03-01, 05:25 PM
From looking over the attack numbers, this is where I suspect the numbers are coming from:

Paladin, short sword melee: BAB-1, Str-2, Class Weapon Bonus-1, Weapon Accuracy-1
Paladin, hammer melee: BAB-1, Str-2, Class Weapon Bonus-1
Paladin, hammer range: BAB-1, Dex-1, Class Weapon Bonus-1
Cleric, dagger melee: BAB-1, Str-2, Weapon Accuracy-2
Cleric, dagger range: BAB-1, Weapon Accuracy-2
Wizard, dagger melee: BAB-1, Weapon Accuracy-2
Wizard, dagger range: BAB-1, Dex-2, Weapon Accuracy-2
Warlock, dagger: BAB-1, Weapon Accuracy-2

When I refer to "Class Weapon Bonus", I suspect, "This is a weapon that <class> would like". I think that implies a bonus, though short sword is an interesting choice for a paladin weapon, so it might instead have +2 accuracy.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-01, 05:28 PM
Is this a counter-claim to WotC's claim that they're removing munchkinism or lessening it, or is this an attempt to say "J'ACCUSE!" about munchkinism when it's the status quo?

The former, yes. I'm quite aware of what people do with the status quo, e.g. the Omnicaster link in my sig :smallbiggrin:

However, I've found that a pretty good cure for munchkinism is to play Paranoia with them. Aaah, good memories...

AlterForm
2008-03-01, 05:44 PM
BREAKING NEWS

http://data.tumblr.com/cACYEaQP3629l1z8LlmD3wZ0_400.jpg

THOSE ROLLS LOOK DELICIOUS.

Artanis
2008-03-01, 05:47 PM
ZOMG! 4e is going to end world hunger!

Truly, it is a god amongst games! :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2008-03-01, 05:49 PM
THOSE ROLLS LOOK DELICIOUS.

No they do not!!!!111!!!! A pictuer with four rolls in it looks way more delicouser than three rols!!!!one!

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 05:50 PM
No they do not!!!!111!!!! A pictuer with four rolls in it looks way more delicouser than three rols!!!!one!

I don't see a bard or gnome in those rolls, therefore they are inherently inferior to third edition rolls.

AlterForm
2008-03-01, 06:01 PM
I don't see a bard or gnome in those rolls, therefore they are inherently inferior to third edition rolls.

ORLY?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/Whoa.png

SamTheCleric
2008-03-01, 06:05 PM
OMG HAX!!!111

(You, sir, made me laugh hysterically.)

...

So I wanted more details on the skills encounter. I got them.


Skill encounter details
Someone on enworld wanted more details on the skill encounter. Our first encounter was a traditional battle against city guards and a rogue who bribed them. When we had dispatched them a whole pile of new guards rushed our way. We were given the chance to roll skill checks against a variety of DCs of varying levels including easy(10) medium 15 and hard 20 different skills did different things. The dwarf tossed over a cart (med STR check) the ranger climbed to a roof (med acrobatic) and the warlock bluffed so well that he practically started ordering the guards around himself (hard bluff check). My clerics history skill seemed useless. The guards had no interest in the similar chase that had occurred two hundred years previous. After so many wins, we passed the encounter. I have no idea what would have happened on too many losses. Overall the skill checks really helped build a chaotic and evolving scene built spontanously in the minds of seven people and some d20 rolls. Fun stuff. I don’t know how much of this was hard mechanics and how much was the dm filling in the scene but it sure made skills a lot more fun. I used them rarely in my home game but not anymore. This is how skills should be.

AlterForm
2008-03-01, 07:45 PM
More monster stats going up as I type

KIDS
2008-03-01, 08:40 PM
"J'ACCUSE!"

That was made of win. LOL :)

Also, the information that Law-Chaos has been killed off for good and now only Good/Evil and Unaligned exist, with Unaligned being prevalent, makes me insanely happy. Here's one to never seeing Law-Chaos in games again...!

Tren
2008-03-01, 09:38 PM
Here's one to never seeing Law-Chaos in games again...!

Here here! And notice the cleric was unaligned? I find that very interesting.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 09:46 PM
That was made of win. LOL :)

Also, the information that Law-Chaos has been killed off for good and now only Good/Evil and Unaligned exist, with Unaligned being prevalent, makes me insanely happy. Here's one to never seeing Law-Chaos in games again...!

BAH! That was the alignment axis I liked better. :smallannoyed:

It'll likely be easy to houserule in, but still, that's :smallannoyed:

Artanis
2008-03-01, 09:55 PM
That was made of win. LOL :)

Also, the information that Law-Chaos has been killed off for good and now only Good/Evil and Unaligned exist, with Unaligned being prevalent, makes me insanely happy. Here's one to never seeing Law-Chaos in games again...!
I'm really sorry to burst your bubble, but one of the monster stat blocks on the Liveblog states its alignment as being "Chaotic Evil" :smallfrown:

Somebloke
2008-03-02, 03:01 AM
Here's one:

Level 3? So my characters can't beat them up at 2nd level then...

KIDS
2008-03-02, 10:40 AM
Hm Artanis, you sure about that? Which monster was it? I recall I came to this conclusion after seeing many many many monsters as unaligned or just evil and asked about it in a discussion thread on character optimization forums, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906687&page=78). When several people agreed that it was mentioned somewhere I took it for granted....

I do still hope that Law-Chaos doesn't make it though :smallfurious:

Matthew
2008-03-02, 10:47 AM
Yup, Gnolls are clearly listed as Chaotic Evil on one of the photgraphs.

Morty
2008-03-02, 10:54 AM
Yup, Gnolls are clearly listed as Chaotic Evil on one of the photgraphs.

So, pidgeon-holing races into alignment that justifies killing them isn't over. It's still True D&D then, no matter how the rules might change. Unless only those specific gnolls are evil, but I somehow doubt it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-02, 12:15 PM
Great. One more bad decision. Law-Chaos is the axis I liked better. It was poorly-defined, but could be evaluated at least semi-objectively. Good and evil are not solid concepts, mutable and changing based on subjective morality and point-of-view. They shouldn't be a part mechanics.:smallannoyed:

Artanis
2008-03-02, 03:54 PM
Hm Artanis, you sure about that? Which monster was it? I recall I came to this conclusion after seeing many many many monsters as unaligned or just evil and asked about it in a discussion thread on character optimization forums, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906687&page=78). When several people agreed that it was mentioned somewhere I took it for granted....

I do still hope that Law-Chaos doesn't make it though :smallfurious:
It was one of the pictures on the liveblog. Currently at the bottom of the first page, where it shows off the "Gnoll Claw Fighter", part of the monster stat block in the photo says "Alignment: Chaotic Evil".


Edit:

FWIW, as far as I know, alignment IS NOT a part of mechanics anymore. They've realized the problems it caused, as it looks to me like it'll be little more than a general roleplaying guide. No more arguments over whether or not Protection from Good works or if a Paladin isn't being Lawful Stupid enough.