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esoteric scribe
2008-02-29, 01:43 PM
Ok, tongue twisting title aside, there are a couple of feats that let characters swap what stat gives a modifier to their saves. Is there one to make fortitude or willpower saves reliant on Intelligence?

RTGoodman
2008-02-29, 02:07 PM
I don't know what all the options are, but the place to look would be the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread over on the Wizards forums.

esoteric scribe
2008-02-29, 02:11 PM
Ah, much obliged.

Burley
2008-02-29, 03:05 PM
Fortitude and Reflex, I think are dandy with Con and Dex, respectively.
However, I hate that Will saves go off of Wisdom. When you have characters like Wizards and Sorcerers who get great Will progressions, I don't think it's right for them to be shunted when their class tries to make them good at it. Therefore, when I DM, I make the rule that Will saves go from your Spellcasting Attribute. Clerics and Druids wouldn't be affected, because they already used wisdom, but Wizards and Sorcerers (who get royally shafted on class abilities and helpful fluff anyways) become more dependable in more situations.
Honestly, Will saves, IMO, should be based on Charisma. Will saves are all about shrugging of magical effects, and Charisma is all about your force of personality. If your force of personality can compel a magical item to do what you want it to (UMD), it should be able to push unwanted magical effects off of you.
But, that's just me.:smallwink:

Frosty
2008-02-29, 03:16 PM
I think there should be multiple different Will saves. Some spells should target Will, and some should target Charisma. Very few should target Int (mostly illusions I'd say).

Chronos
2008-02-29, 03:40 PM
...Wizards and Sorcerers (who get royally shafted on class abilities and helpful fluff anyways)...What game are you playing, where wizards get shafted on class abilities? Sure, they only have two, but one of them is that they cast spells as wizards.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 04:04 PM
Wizards and clerics don't need beefing up. Sorcerers do a tiny bit.

Corolinth
2008-02-29, 06:02 PM
Generally wizards prioritize their mental attributes more than D&D players trying to min/max their character do.

Collin152
2008-02-29, 06:21 PM
What game are you playing, where wizards get shafted on class abilities? Sure, they only have two, but one of them is that they cast spells as wizards.

They get bonus feats too.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-01, 09:18 PM
What game are you playing, where wizards get shafted on class abilities? Sure, they only have two, but one of them is that they cast spells as wizards.
Three:
Spellcasting
Bonus Feats
Familiar


Fortitude and Reflex, I think are dandy with Con and Dex, respectively.
However, I hate that Will saves go off of Wisdom. When you have characters like Wizards and Sorcerers who get great Will progressions, I don't think it's right for them to be shunted when their class tries to make them good at it. Therefore, when I DM, I make the rule that Will saves go from your Spellcasting Attribute. Clerics and Druids wouldn't be affected, because they already used wisdom, but Wizards and Sorcerers (who get royally shafted on class abilities and helpful fluff anyways) become more dependable in more situations.
Honestly, Will saves, IMO, should be based on Charisma. Will saves are all about shrugging of magical effects, and Charisma is all about your force of personality. If your force of personality can compel a magical item to do what you want it to (UMD), it should be able to push unwanted magical effects off of you.
But, that's just me.:smallwink:
Not just you - Consider what the assorted stats do for an arbitrary class (no noticeable class features - e.g., Warrior, Commoner, Expert, et centera):
Str: Melee attack, melee damage, carrying capacity
Dex: AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack, Initiative
Con: Fort Saves, HP
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha:

Now, each stat has associated skills, but all stats have those. Suppose we want to regroup them; perhaps something like...

Str: Melee Attack Rolls, Melee Damage Rolls, Carrying Capacity
Dex: AC, Reflex Saves, Ranged Attack Rolls
Con: Fort Saves, HP
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Initiative (Knowing the opponent is there in time to react)
Cha: Will saves (force of personality)

We've slightly devalued Dex (no longer handles initiative), and increased the value of Charisma. Each of the physical stats now handles two or three big things, each of the mental stats handles one big thing.

bugsysservant
2008-03-01, 09:29 PM
Not just you - Consider what the assorted stats do for an arbitrary class (no noticeable class features - e.g., Warrior, Commoner, Expert, et centera):
Str: Melee attack, melee damage, carrying capacity
Dex: AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack, Initiative
Con: Fort Saves, HP
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha:

Now, each stat has associated skills, but all stats have those. Suppose we want to regroup them; perhaps something like...

Str: Melee Attack Rolls, Melee Damage Rolls, Carrying Capacity
Dex: AC, Reflex Saves, Ranged Attack Rolls
Con: Fort Saves, HP
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Initiative (Knowing the opponent is there in time to react)
Cha: Will saves (force of personality)

We've slightly devalued Dex (no longer handles initiative), and increased the value of Charisma. Each of the physical stats now handles two or three big things, each of the mental stats handles one big thing.

I actually rather like that. Unfortunately, you've kinda screwed over wisdom. Not all that big a deal, since most classes that would prioritize it have good will save progressions as it is, but still...

Maybe there should be some system for lowering prices in stores based on charisma. Or make NPC initial reactions more based off of charisma, rather that DM fiat.

The problem is that wisdom and charisma aren't really clearly defined in relation to each other. Take the person with the highest wisdom you can think of, and nine times out of ten, they also have a high charisma. The reverse isn't as true, but the people with the highest charisma aren't necessarily good in a fight. Lessee, would I rather have Cicero at my side facing an army of invading orcs, or Bruce Lee. Think, think, think...

Jack_Simth
2008-03-01, 10:30 PM
I actually rather like that. Unfortunately, you've kinda screwed over wisdom. Not all that big a deal, since most classes that would prioritize it have good will save progressions as it is, but still...
The Cleric has gone from the guy you never target with a Will save effect to the guy that that always knows you're coming. Which is more important: Going first, or resisting effects? I was calling it a wash, and stealing a little from Dex-based characters (but then, Dex is kinda overloaded anyway).


Maybe there should be some system for lowering prices in stores based on charisma. Or make NPC initial reactions more based off of charisma, rather that DM fiat.
Catch:
Any system for these is going to be abusable. E.g., if one person in the party has a high charisma, he handles all the shopping - and then it doesn't matter that the Dwarf has a Charisma of 6, because the Sorcerer has a Charisma of 26 - suddenly the party is getting everything at half off. This would require some fairly significant balance tweaks to the game.


The problem is that wisdom and charisma aren't really clearly defined in relation to each other. Take the person with the highest wisdom you can think of, and nine times out of ten, they also have a high charisma. The reverse isn't as true, but the people with the highest charisma aren't necessarily good in a fight. Lessee, would I rather have Cicero at my side facing an army of invading orcs, or Bruce Lee. Think, think, think...Wisdom and Charisma aren't particularly well-defined in real-world terms.

The high Charisma person is the one that motivates others. The high Wisdom person is the one that understands others. You won't notice the high Wis, low Cha person - he doesn't stand out overly much. You will notice the High Cha, low Wis person - he leads a lot of people down a foolish road; he's liable to be a party animal. You will notice the High Cha, High Wis person - great guy, all around.

Also, when facing an invading army, I'll want two types of people on your side:
1) The guy that can get a lot of people to do dangerous stuff for you (need soldiers).
2) The guy that can figure out the best way to make use of resources (need a general).

If I've got (1), great, a big ol mass of warm bodies helps in a war.
If I've got (2), great, a good general is very useful.
If I've got both (1) and (2), I pretty much win unless the DM is running a losing scenario.

Mando Knight
2008-03-01, 11:24 PM
Cha: Will saves (force of personality)

Aye, I've always thought that to improve Charisma, it should be more of a Force of Personality thing, to the point of a 20 in Charisma warps reality without thinking about it, almost like Haruhi Suzumiya.

10 Charisma: average person
14 Charisma: the person's force of will on the world causes it to bend to his favor somewhat
20 Charisma: things that have a 1% chance of success tend to succeed way too often. A desire to be attractive is answered by (un)naturally amazing good looks, courtesy of the universe.

...something like that...
Maybe Charisma could add bonuses to epic events?

Chronos
2008-03-01, 11:34 PM
Catch:
Any system for these is going to be abusable. E.g., if one person in the party has a high charisma, he handles all the shopping - and then it doesn't matter that the Dwarf has a Charisma of 6, because the Sorcerer has a Charisma of 26 - suddenly the party is getting everything at half off.I don't see the problem... One member of the party with high Int can make clever plans for everyone, and one member of the party with high strength can carry heavy stuff and do all of the bashing down of doors. So what's the problem with having one character do all of the haggling and negotiating for the party?