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Frosty
2008-02-29, 02:51 PM
Assuming Lilitu HD and cleric levels stack for the purposes of cleric casting, and a normal Lilutu gains enough cleric levels to cast as a level 20 cleric, how bad would it be to throw it against a party of 4 ECL 9 characters? What is the Challenge Rating of this creature? And what of its ECL?

Douglas
2008-02-29, 02:57 PM
First, could you please double check the spelling of this monster and tell me where it's from?

Second, unless it has some spectacular weaknesses, both its CR and ECL are going to be epic. A level 9 party will suffer a TPK unless you play it extremely poorly.

Shishnarfne
2008-02-29, 02:57 PM
Assuming Lilitu HD and cleric levels stack for the purposes of cleric casting, and a normal Lilutu gains enough cleric levels to cast as a level 20 cleric, how bad would it be to throw it against a party of 4 ECL 9 characters? What is the Challenge Rating of this creature? And what of its ECL?

Well, if it casts as a level 20 cleric, it should have a CR of (normal CR + # of cleric levels added), as they'd have to count as associated, and an ECL of (normal ECL + # of cleric levels addeds). As I don't know the CR/ECL of a Lilitu, I can't help anymore with that.

It would be a near-instant TPK to throw this against ECL 9 players:

Implosion... one spell, no party left (everybody gets one Fort Save DC 23+ against death... 4 rounds, and the party is probably toast). Or the direct damage route: Firestorm.

And that's without the Death Domain Wail of the Banshee...

(Unless you meant a different level of casting?)

AKA_Bait
2008-02-29, 02:59 PM
Yeah, I also don't know what critter that is but anything casting as a 20th level cleric vs. a 9th level party is going to = TPK.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 03:04 PM
The Lilitu is a monster from Fiendish Codex I and it is basically an evolved form of a succubus. It is normally a CR12 monster with 14HD that casts as a level 9 cleric (and uses CHA as a casting stat instead of Wis) and has tentacles with 10ft reach that do Wis damage and drains levels (1d4 I think). I guess that means I'd be adding 11 cleric levels to it.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-29, 03:06 PM
The Lilitu is a monster from Fiendish Codex I and it is basically an evolved form of a succubus. It is normally a CR12 monster with 14HD that casts as a level 9 cleric (and uses CHA as a casting stat instead of Wis) and has tentacles with 10ft reach that do Wis damage and drains levels (1d4 I think). I guess that means I'd be adding 11 cleric levels to it.

So... honestly... you are asking if an approximatley CR 23 creature is an appropriate 9th level encounter?

Edit: Going by that, the Lilitu would be an appropriate encounter without adding anything to it btw.

Drider
2008-02-29, 03:08 PM
if its normally a CR12, keep that. That's a fine challenge for 4 level 9 characters. Throwing 11 levels of cleric may sound cool, but as everyone is saying, making it CR23 is TPK.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 03:10 PM
It's a reccuring villain of sorts, so the level is mostly set. The characters are supposed to fight this thing (kind of a plot event). The question right now is how much favorable circumstances I have to throw towards the party in order for them to survive/delay/pester this Lilitu until help shows up.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-29, 03:11 PM
The CR would be 22-a bit less than the Solar because the Lilitu has lower ability scores.
The ECL would be 25-in epic levels, losing 5 whole caster levels, bonus feats and PrC options makes up for the level adjustment many mid-level monsters have. Compare with a Cleric 5/Contemplative 15/Hierophant 5 that has a Caster Level of 30, substantial Spell Resistance and access to 12th level spells (if you ban Epic Spellcasting which I approve)



As for favorable circumstances, nothing will help. The Lilitu will cast Miracle, replicating reach teleport (7th-8th level effect) on the entire party. The party must make a DC 35 will save or be teleported to the depth of the nearest sea (dying from the pressure) or 200 feet upwards (taking 20d6 falling damage with no save). Alternatively, the Lilitu replicates Symbol of Insanity-and the party is compelled to fight itself.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 03:15 PM
Oh and I forgot to mention its Spell-like abilities. This thing has constant True Seeing I think and can throw out Quickened Suggestions (save DC charisma-based) and other things. I guess I'm asking how to structure a plot fight so the party can survive this.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-29, 03:20 PM
Lilitu like having fun when destroying others. Using a mass confusion, symbol of insanity or mass charm monster effect, the Lilitu makes the entire party fight eachother.

The goal here is not to survive the Lilitu-but to survive while compelled to fight eachother. The Lilitu is simply having fun-but after a few rounds (DM's choice) a powerful ally of the PCs shows up unexpectedly and helps them.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 03:28 PM
Right basicaly a minor deity is supposed to show up after some time and kick the Lilitu's behind with the help of the party. Symbol of insanity sounds fun...is it permanent I forgot?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-29, 03:52 PM
Symbol of Insanity effects are permanent. However, Mass Heal can restore insanity to the entire party at once.

BTW, a minor deity is not required. A Solar is roughly equivalent to your Lilitu in terms of power, perhaps just a bit stronger, assuming Lilitu Spell Resistance advances along with class levels. So, the Solar appears and saves the group and then the Solar and the Lilitu are evenly matched. The PCs are the ones that make the difference in the fight.


Alternatively, a better way to do the encounter is with Spread of Savagery (makes affected creatures perceive everyone as enemies) or Mass Dominate Person (with the Lilitu ordering them to fight eachother).
The reason the encounter is better with the above spells is that with Insanity the PCs simply act randomly. With Spread of Savagery or Mass Dominate Person, the PCs actually control their actions so they can use tactics.

note: if you use the latter approach, Unbinding (9th lvl spell that destroys bindings/enchantments) is the spell you want to use, not Mass Heal.

nargbop
2008-03-01, 11:59 AM
Dude. Seriously. CR 20 vs lvl 9 party means your PCs all die. Even terrifically-well optimized ECL 9 PCs with massive preparation and magic items out the wazoo.
A level 20 cleric has Moment of Prescience and many other buffs - a demon who's lived long enough to get to 20 will have them on ALL THE TIME.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-01, 12:10 PM
Not to mention the base monster is CR TWELVE. Against level NINE players. THAT already is overpowered. If I wanted my Players to battle a Lilitu, I'd tone it down, not up.

TheSteelRat
2008-03-01, 12:12 PM
Yeah, as the others have suggested, this critter would be instant-death to the characters - if that was it's goal. Your PC's will survive merely because you're not trying to kill them. Confusion / Domination Spells would probably be sufficient to have "fun." Making them fight one another, NPC allies, or other non-evil creatures would probably be the best bet. Just play it like it's invulnerable (because it is), and just wants to "play" that day. I can see something like making two characters wrestle for a knife to stab each other, etc.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 12:47 PM
Dude. Seriously. CR 20 vs lvl 9 party means your PCs all die. Even terrifically-well optimized ECL 9 PCs with massive preparation and magic items out the wazoo.

Well they are fairly over-wealthed, you're right, normally this would be insta-death.


Not to mention the base monster is CR TWELVE. Against level NINE players. THAT already is overpowered.

Not really. The party as a whole has a CR of 13, so this will be a very tough fight that favors the PCs slightly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 01:45 PM
THE CR SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!

I mean that. Just Charm Monster can make your players' lives hell, ironically. They WILL have lower than expected saves, and WILL have their asses handed to them in a silver platter. As a rule, anything that uses spells or has enormous brute force AND a way of getting around the battlefield (I. e., flies) should not be pitted against lower level characters. They just won't cut it.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 02:14 PM
Then how does the CR system work? Are you saying that how the DMG claims CR should work doesn't really work that way in reality, or that I am mis-interpreting CR? I believe that a boss fight should involve a creature with 2 or 3 higher CR than the party's average level.

Now, I di not believe that the Lilutu flies, but I it does have Greater Teleport at-will, a deadly melee, SLAs, and up to 5th level cleric spells. So yes, it is tough. It's supposed to be. Whether it is under or over-CRed is another debate.

Irreverent Fool
2008-03-03, 02:49 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Hope this is helpful. I had a bigger post but the slow website ate it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 03:00 PM
Basically, the CR system is a horrible monstrosity. See Balors and Tarrasques holding the same CR, when one can just be dispatched by a fighter with overland flight and a sufficiently powerful ranged attack, and a wizard to cast wish, while the other one will blow those two away.

In general, it's best to custom create a boss monster. Else, a level 20 party could, for example, end up facing a SOLAR, using the "boss should be 2-3 CR's higher than party" assessment.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 03:15 PM
Is a Solar a wimp compared to 4 level 20s? Or an absolute overkill?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 03:39 PM
Overkill. Casts like a level 20 cleric? Check. Has unbreachable (for level 20 PC's) DR? Check. Loaded to the brim with it's own SLA's? Check. Slaying arrows and a dancing weapon to hit you with two weapons per round? Checky-o, boy.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 03:56 PM
Well sure that's good, but unless he can quicken a lot of things, he's still only slinging off one spell per round or making some melee attacks. I don't see that as hugely pwning a group with that has a level 20 cleric and wizard.

DR is not that bad in non-core. There are many weapon enhancements that can overcome DR. Or an ubercharger can just power through it no problem. Of course, I don't know a Solar's exact stats so I can't comment that much.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 04:05 PM
It's DR EPIC. And Evil. Good luck breaching that, specially because by book fiat you aren't allowed to get an epic weapon before level 21. And I'm skipping the fact he has frickin' IMPRISONMENT at will, fo' starters. Or that he can summon monster 7 at will too and swamp you with mobs. Or that he can use waves of exhaustion to leave ANY char in the area exhausted, or...aah, screw it. Let's leave it at this: In soviet russia, Solar Pwns you!

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 04:13 PM
The solar is one of those things that looks good on paper, but just a solar vs a 4 man party, it's not that terrific, because of limits on actions.

However, if you set it up as a boss, with minions in the way, and some pre-combat buff time, it's totally brutal. If you swap out some of its feats (cleave, dodge, great cleave) for quicken spell like ability and metamagic feats, it gets better.

With prep time, it's going to be immune to just about anything the typical batman is going to fling at him. Deathward protects it from metamagic'd enervates, it's SR is going to negate about half the SR:Yes spells that a wizard tosses at it, it will be extremely mobile and hurling out debuffs (namely greater dispel magic at will), which means unless the ubercharger has a way to naturally see invisibility and fly, he's not getting off the ground.

Hell, it could just hang out invisible behind its minions and counterspell anything too beefy the casters cast with greater dispel magic. Once they run out of spells, he can start stripping them of buffs.

It has a weak point vs. orbs with only a touch AC of 14, though a smart Solar would have up energy immunity electricity, sonic and fire, already naturally immune to cold and acid. Now the orb wizard can't do jack crap.

Combine that with regen 15 and the ability to fly at 150 feet, or go ethereal, if it does take damage, it can flee, recoup, then strike again.

It's biggest weakness is its inability to teleport, which means if you forcecage it, it'll be stuck (unless it planeshifts out, or had already cast righteous might and would be too big to fit in the cage).


It's DR EPIC. And Evil. Good luck breaching that, specially because by book fiat you aren't allowed to get an epic weapon before level 21. And I'm skipping the fact he has frickin' IMPRISONMENT at will, fo' starters. Or that he can summon monster 7 at will too and swamp you with mobs. Or that he can use waves of exhaustion to leave ANY char in the area exhausted, or...aah, screw it. Let's leave it at this: In soviet russia, Solar Pwns you!

At level 20, my leap attacking lion totem pouncing barbarian1/full BAB class 19 is going to be doing around 100 damage/swing.

My level 20 halfling paladin (with cavalier & a level of lion totem at 1st level thrown in) riding a dragon with fly-by attack will be doing about 200 damage/swing. Just about any one hit from him will one shot it.

The Glyphstone
2008-03-03, 04:24 PM
CR 101:

A CR20 Solar should lose to a group of 4 Level 20 PC's. In fact, it's expected to lose, and the party should spend roughly 25% of their spells/consumables/resources doing so. That's the principle of CR, that a party should be able to face 4 encounters of CR = party level before resting. Higher CR, and it'll be fewer encounters. Lower CR, and it'll be more encounters. Too high of a CR (such as a CR23) and it's no more encounters because they're dead. And note "in principle", because it's also quite inaccurate at times...such as Azerian's comment on the Tarrasque (scary, but rather boring/easy to kill when prepared) versus a Pit Fiend/Balor (incredibly dangerous, even if played dumb, and absolutely devastating if played with a TPK in mind).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 04:28 PM
Waves of exhaustion. Less STR and DEX, for starters. Blade Barrier. Mobs from summon Monster 7. If a solar gets TWO rounds of prep time, it will utterly devastate a party. And then we have things like Power word blind (Hellooooo, obsolete fighter!) or a wish for a prismatic wall and bye bye fighter. And this is not even close to the abuse I could do (Can you say, I buy Belts of Battle?).

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 04:31 PM
The CR of a Solar was moved up to 23.

If played dumb, or if the party gets the drop on it, like it's just a random encounter, and for whatever reason it fights to the death, it'll be quite tough. It is, afterall, 23 CR.

But if played intelligently, as a boss, it could wipe a 20th level party without too much problem (unless the casters opened with disjunction).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 04:43 PM
Since the Lilitu that was discussed here was to be a boss encounter, I'm thinking of a solar as a boss, which will hand a party it's ass. Heck, it can just Summon Avorals and have them lightning bolt or magic missile a party to death, without intervening.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 04:46 PM
There is a +3 weapon enchantment that gets through *any* DR. It just needs one round to attune itself. Or, an archer with a bow with the Force enchantment will just ignore all DR anyways.

A Raptoran fighter with enough UMD to use a wand of Wraithstrike (swift action. Employ an item that can store a wand in a weapon. forgot what those are called) can just pounce-charge the Solar to death. so I guess it's really just a matter of how much cheese you're willing to put forth. As for Orbs, can't you just have one wizard/sorcerer dedicate himself to spamming Greater Dispel Magic to make sure the Solar isn't immune? Or, spam Orbs of Force instead. Between a Pounce that does a few hundred damage and an extreme-metamagic'ed orb of force, the solar should go down.

I wonder if a Planar Sheperd can take down a Solar...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 05:01 PM
Oh, it can, but good luck getting a pouncer to work that well when it's exhausted/blind/transported to another plane via prismatic wall, and a wizard to aim while blind/Transported/while suffering from an earthquake.

And yeah, a planar shepherd will kick the ass of a Solar, but hell, a planar shepherd can kick the ass of a hecatonchires without breaking a sweat.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 05:03 PM
Even if you ban the plane that has wierd 10x time properties?

Also, what is a hecatonchire?

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 05:06 PM
Frosty, for the frequency you post here, you should really familiarize yourself with this website:
www.d20srd.org.

Core rule books, expanded psionics, some monte cook stuff, and epic level stuff, all online.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 05:09 PM
Hecatoncheires, or the perfect example of no one thinking of meleers. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)


A Shepherd will still win, probably. If it does the "Turn to solar and cheat" cheese, it still wins.

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 05:10 PM
Between a Pounce/QUOTE]

Good luck closing with that 150' fly speed, 20 levels of caster, and a slew of at will SLA. It all depends on the preparation each side has, and how close they can get to each other.

[quote]an extreme-metamagic'ed orb of force, the solar should go down.

If the only way for a party to overcome an encounter without resorting to Incantatrix cheese, what's that say about the encounter?

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 05:12 PM
Okay, because the OP doesn't really get what CR and ECL are, I think I need to explain them.

ECL is the Effective Character Level of a character. A level 7 human fighter is ECL 7, as is a hatchling black dragon with no class levels.

CR is the Challenge Rating of a monster. A level 7 human fighter is CR 7 (in theory), whereas a wyrmling black dragon is CR 3.

Why this difference?

The reason is twofold. First off, player characters get a ton more/better gear than NPCs of the same level; a level 7 PC fighter is much better armed than an NPC level 7 fighter. And second, PCs are more optimized and some abilities are much better in the hands of PCs than NPCs in the context of power; a black dragon wyrmling can fly and has a deadly breath weapon which can be used twice every combat, which has a massive effect on a player character, but as an NPC a black dragon doesn't have all that many hit dice and its reusable breath weapon is likely to only go off twice or so during the fight before it dies.

This is way CR and ECL are completely divorced from one another; a creature could have a very low CR but still have a pretty high ECL adjustment, and vice-versa.

CR 7 indicates that, against an average level 7 party, it should expend 20% (not 25%) of their resources (spells, hp, ect.). This is to say, a CR 7 monster can take away 20% of the resources of 4 level 7 player characters.

CR does NOT indicate how well two monsters would do against one another; one monster of a given CR may be able to utterly tear apart another. CR is a measure of how they stack up against PCs of a given average party ECL, NOT of PCs of a given CR, because PCs don't have CR.

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 05:16 PM
Hecatoncheires, or the perfect example of no one thinking of meleers. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires)


A Shepherd will still win, probably. If it does the "Turn to solar and cheat" cheese, it still wins.

With 70 SR? How?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 05:24 PM
Of course, this ignores that some monsters are absolutely borkened for their CR. See: Belker, any orc that gets a lucky shot at level 1, the afforementioned Solar and Balor, Dread Wraiths, Fleshrakers, etc., or monsters that are broken in the other way. See: Tarrasque, dire animals, almost any tank that can't fly.

Oh, can you say, "No SR allowed, sucka!"?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-03, 05:31 PM
Also, what is a hecatonchire?

... If it were possible,
I should like my own eyes to have experience
Of the unmeasurable Briareus.
(Dante, Inferno XXXI 97-99)
I am not quite there yet, but closer than most. :smallwink:
Although, I prefer if we do not talk about the number of hands...

Frosty
2008-03-03, 05:44 PM
I never mentioned Incantatrix, Cuddly. You can do plenty of metamagic with just plain Wizard. Easy metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic school focus, a metamagic rod, and that's just off the top fo my head. I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm not even thinking about.

Dragon: Right. a CR12 against a level 12 party would be fairly easy. 20% of a party's resources is not exactly a hard fight. So I think a CR12 vs a level 9 party would be a challenging fight, possibly consuming 80% or more of a party's resources.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 05:59 PM
That's too dependent to count, really. A Tank enemy could be handled, but a spellcasting enemy like a Lilitu becomes exponentially more powerful the higher up you go.

For example, just look at a Bebilith and a Glabrezu. A level 7 party with Fly will crush a Bebilith, though with immense difficulty, but a level 10 party will be torn to pieces by a mighty Glabrezu.

Plus, usually, "spending 80% of a party's daily resources" usually equals "Near total TPK with one or two members standing", not "everyone alive but unable to continue with another encounter". The system simply doesn't handle facing off against a higher CR enemy well.

Frosty
2008-03-03, 06:08 PM
Plus, usually, "spending 80% of a party's daily resources" usually equals "Near total TPK with one or two members standing", not "everyone alive but unable to continue with another encounter". The system simply doesn't handle facing off against a higher CR enemy well.

I've noticed that a bit, so I heavily houserule death. You don't die until you reach negative 1/3 of your total hitpoints. Save or Dies drop you to that negative HP +1, and you're stable.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 06:14 PM
Then maybe that could work...

Until you realize the Lilitu's main trick is charming and suggesting your pants off (Worse, it could be literal, but let's not delve into that). She makes you weaken yourself, then proceeds to kick your ass. The problem here is not death, but rather "Wee, I wanna throw all my items away to get a kiss from this fine heifer! SPLAT!".

Frosty
2008-03-03, 06:50 PM
You know, I've always found the picture of the Lilitu in FC1 to be somewhat ugly. Can't really see that one being a seductress. That said, the party's will saves are surprisingly high. We've got a Cleric, Beguiler, Paladin, and Swordsage. And the ironic thing is, the Beguiler is the most likely to get charmed.

Forrester
2008-03-03, 07:00 PM
Right basicaly a minor deity is supposed to show up after some time and kick the Lilitu's behind with the help of the party. Symbol of insanity sounds fun...is it permanent I forgot?



I don't want to be a party pooper or seem overly critical but it's doubtful this is going to be as cool as you think it will be. I speak from experience . . . the PCs should be the central focus of any battle, not some epic NPC facing off against some other epic NPC. I don't know why it's so easy for DMs to fall into that trap, but it is. Again . . . speaking from experience in my old campaigns :).



It would be much better for the PCs to face off against some lesser avatar-like thing of Lilitu, *alone* (or maybe buffed by this minor deity) than have them play 'support' -- because frankly, unless you run Lilitu like an idiot, there's not much support they can offer.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 07:05 PM
You know, I've always found the picture of the Lilitu in FC1 to be somewhat ugly. Can't really see that one being a seductress. That said, the party's will saves are surprisingly high. We've got a Cleric, Beguiler, Paladin, and Swordsage. And the ironic thing is, the Beguiler is the most likely to get charmed.


I agree on that. They should have done a "WHOA! Knockout!/Hellooooooooo Nurse!" pic for the Lilitu that amplified the MM's succubus' good looks. That said, since that pic was more or less a perfect representation of a succubus, it must have been hard to beat that.

Oh, and Forrester, a Lilitu is just a level 12 monster. It's not special like you seem to believe. That said, I think that if you want to introduce the minor deity, make it add a +2 to the chars' will saves, and that's it. NPC doing the battle for the PC's = Bad Mojo.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-03, 07:10 PM
You know, I've always found the picture of the Lilitu in FC1 to be somewhat ugly. Can't really see that one being a seductress. That said, the party's will saves are surprisingly high. We've got a Cleric, Beguiler, Paladin, and Swordsage. And the ironic thing is, the Beguiler is the most likely to get charmed.


I agree on that. They should have done a "WHOA! Knockout!/Hellooooooooo Nurse!" pic for the Lilitu that amplified the MM's succubus' good looks. That said, since that pic was more or less a perfect representation of a succubus, it must have been hard to beat that.

Oh, and Forrester, a Lilitu is just a level 12 monster. It's not special like you seem to believe. That said, I think that if you want to introduce the minor deity, make it add a +2 to the chars' will saves, and that's it. NPC doing the battle for the PC's = Bad Mojo.

Worira
2008-03-03, 08:10 PM
A Lilitu is CR 12, but a Lilitu with 11 levels of cleric isn't. It's CR 23, and that's what the topic's about. A base Lilitu is an extremely difficult, but doable, battle. The modified Lilitu is epic.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-03, 08:42 PM
Hmm, an evil creature able to cast as a level 20 cleric versus a party of less than 11th level...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm

Rocks might as well be falling.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 11:21 AM
Well, we did it last night. I thought about what you guys said, combined two ideas. What ended up happening is the epic Lilitu needed to cast a special spell to shatter an important artifact of good. The spell takes many turns to cast. Hence, she brought a buddy. As unlikely as it seems, two Lilutus have teamed up, and the second one is a unmodified one whose job is to block the PCs from disrupting the spell. PCs kill normal Lilitu, and is too late to save the artifact. Powerful NPC showed up (hurt), and thanks to the healing from PCs, manages to dispatch the epic Lilitu (but it'll be back).

personally, for a seducer, the Pleasure Devil does a much better job in terms of appearance. Granted, we don't know their original forms, but still the picture is much better. And she's holding a fake holy symbol to boot!

Cuddly
2008-03-06, 05:12 PM
You do realize that all those sex-fiends use spells to hide their appearance, right?

Frosty
2008-03-06, 07:08 PM
Don't Succubi get polymorph at-will or something?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 07:12 PM
They can alter their appearance, to look like any humanoid, I believe.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 07:14 PM
I think it's beyond just appearance-altering. Men would figure out something's wrong if the tactile senses tell him different thngs. It's gotta be some sort of real change.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 07:28 PM
Alter self is fully altering. And that, I believe, is what they get.

Though the laughs this could result in....

(Succubus is transformed to male)

"Oh, sweety, that's soo good. aaaaaaaahh....hey, honey, what happened to your wit?"

"It's nothing, babe...now let me do something like this..."

AslanCross
2008-03-06, 09:19 PM
personally, for a seducer, the Pleasure Devil does a much better job in terms of appearance. Granted, we don't know their original forms, but still the picture is much better. And she's holding a fake holy symbol to boot!

I always had the impression that she was holding her collection of holy symbols that she'd gotten from non-evil clerics she'd seduced.