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View Full Version : Killing with a secondary class Feature(animal companion question)



Kioran
2008-02-29, 06:24 PM
Iīve always had the impression that an animal companion, the least of the Druids three iconic Features, was still awesome enough to double as a talented Meat shield.....And is one more good reason the Druid is broken, because in the worst case, the Druid could be a large and angry animal with a Druid Cohort as a Heal-bot and buffer (figuratively speaking).

Iīve already used the best CAdv had to offer: Natural Bond and the Beastmaster. Iīve used a Tiger as base material.

The main question is: What are other ways to enhance the companions power (Feats, classes, whatever)? Which are the most powerful companions available (inside Core or outside of it - fleshraker excepted, because itīs too obviously cheesy)?

Can my Animal PC with his Druid companion become even worse? Please enlighten me....... :smallsmile:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-29, 06:28 PM
Animal Growth, SRD. Proceed to Pwn people into submission. The easiest trick tends to be the best.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 06:31 PM
You can be a Paladin/Beastmaster with Devoted Tracker. It lets you combine your Special mount bonuses with your animal companion bonuses. Then go with PRCs that advance both your animal companion and your special mount, and you're golden. Be a Halfling.

Douglas
2008-02-29, 06:35 PM
Nature's Favor and Nature's Avatar from Spell Compendium. Add Bite of the Werebear for extra silliness, and cast it on yourself too.

Kioran
2008-02-29, 06:37 PM
You can be a Paladin/Beastmaster with Devoted Tracker. It lets you combine your Special mount bonuses with your animal companion bonuses. Then go with PRCs that advance both your animal companion and your special mount, and you're golden. Be a Halfling.

Interesting......What are these PrCs you are speaking of? Nothing comes to mind, directly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-29, 06:41 PM
Halfling outrider is probably the most notable, but there's quite a few.

Frosty
2008-02-29, 06:41 PM
I believe Halfling Outrider is one. From C. Warrior I think. Other good PRCs include Wild Plains Outrider, even though you can only advance one aspect (you choose to advance your Special mount progression or AC progression). Ths build eventually takes both PRCs. After you run out, you can take more levels of Beastmaster or Paladin.

Don't forget to take Natural Bond to raise your effective Druid level by 3 (or was it 4?). What becomes really fun is if you also take the Leadership feat, so your animal will now have an ECL of your level -2 *before* you apply all the special mount and AC bonuses. It is an ubermount.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-29, 08:00 PM
Companion Spellcasting. Cast spells on your companion from 30 ft away.

Rad
2008-03-01, 05:17 AM
Don't forget to take Natural Bond to raise your effective Druid level by 3 (or was it 4?). What becomes really fun is if you also take the Leadership feat, so your animal will now have an ECL of your level -2 *before* you apply all the special mount and AC bonuses. It is an ubermount.

I don't think leadership works that way. It has been ruled several times that if you have a familiar, a mound and/or an animal companion those have to be different creatures and I see no reason why it should be any different for your cohort.

I'm also under the impression (but I really am not sure on this one) that Natural Bond allowed you to 'recover' the levels used in classes other than druid, but could not offset the 'penalty' you get for having a stronger AC like a bear or a tiger.

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 06:34 AM
Animal Growth, SRD. Proceed to Pwn people into submission. The easiest trick tends to be the best.
You can't do that! animal companions are Magical Beasts, and thus the spell does not work on them. I'm pretty sure the rule was made just to prevent this!

Edit: Appearantly, I am wrong! The Animal Companion does indeed stay an Animal, according to the PHB errata!

Also, there's a Feat (don't remember the name) for multiclass Ranger/Paladins that makes your special mount and animal companion one and the same, letting your class levels stack with each other for determining its abilities. Since Rangers and Paladins are two of my favorite classes it appeals a lot to me, hehe.

lord_khaine
2008-03-01, 06:41 AM
actualy animal companions are just slightly stronger normal animals, thats why you can in fact cast animal growth on them.

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 06:42 AM
You can't do that! animal companions are Magical Beasts, and thus the spell does not work on them. I'm pretty sure the rule was made just to prevent this!

To be fair, that portion is omitted from the SRD. It does however state that the animal is otherwise identical to the entry in the monster manual. You can see how a quick check might lead one to believe that the animal companion was just that and not somehow a magical beast companion.

Also, the animal does not advance as a magical beast (d10 hit dice and good BAB) and instead uses the animal companion progression. This just adds further to the possible confusion.

Edit:

Lord Khaine, check the actual PHB text, not the online SRD, it states that animal companions are magical beasts for the purpose of effects that depend on their type.

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 06:55 AM
To be fair, that portion is omitted from the SRD. It does however state that the animal is otherwise identical to the entry in the monster manual. You can see how a quick check might lead one to believe that the animal companion was just that and not somehow a magical beast companion.

Also, the animal does not advance as a magical beast (d10 hit dice and good BAB) and instead uses the animal companion progression. This just adds further to the possible confusion.
I know, and I agree it can be pretty confusing.

Kioran
2008-03-01, 06:55 AM
To be fair, that portion is omitted from the SRD. It does however state that the animal is otherwise identical to the entry in the monster manual. You can see how a quick check might lead one to believe that the animal companion was just that and not somehow a magical beast companion.

Also, the animal does not advance as a magical beast (d10 hit dice and good BAB) and instead uses the animal companion progression. This just adds further to the possible confusion.

Edit:

Lord Khaine, check the actual PHB text, not the online SRD, it states that animal companions are magical beasts for the purpose of effects that depend on their type.

Your logic seems waterproof - well, just means the druid is resticted to sharing Barkskin, Bullīs Strength and Magic Fang with the companion. Good enough for me. Iīll look for an optimized build now.....

Edit:

I'm also under the impression (but I really am not sure on this one) that Natural Bond allowed you to 'recover' the levels used in classes other than druid, but could not offset the 'penalty' you get for having a stronger AC like a bear or a tiger.

By RAW, the more powerful companions impose a penalty on the effective druid lvl, whereas Natural Bond heightens it - up to a lvl equal to HD. Thus, one could, with that feat, utilize oneīs entire Druid-lvl despite the penatly. Unfortunately, thereīs nothing about the order in which they are applied (except common sense), so by RAW, yes, Natural Bond can work that way. Sadly.

Well, since my DM thinks Wizards and druids arenīt broken, but dervishes are (they are, but not nearly on the same scale of broken), itīs fair game to me, especially since this build is more theoretic than anything else.
There is a suggestion about cohorts being available as companions, albeit with an LA, but that oneīs subject to DM approval and thus, not available for this excercise. The good with the bad: I will abuse RAW till RAI scream, but will never assume DM-Fiat to my benefit.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-01, 07:09 AM
Lord Khaine, check the actual PHB text, not the online SRD, it states that animal companions are magical beasts for the purpose of effects that depend on their type.

Hmm - you may have confounded that with the paladin's warhorse (which is considered a magical beast, as a familiar).
So animal companions are just that: animals, and all the druid's animal spells are applicable.

- Giacomo

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 07:18 AM
Hmm - you may counfound that with the paladin's warhorse (which is considered a magical beast, as a familiar).
So animal companions are just that: animals, and all the druid's animal spells are applicable.

- Giacomo

I can tell you didn't actually check the PHB (like I said, it's in the paper copy but not in the SRD, for whatever reason).

Page 36. Druid's animal companion sidebar. First paragraph:

"The companion is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on it's type (although it retains an animal's HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats)."

It's in there, word for word. Animal growth is an effect which depends on a type, just like charm person, so it would only work on an animal companion if it could target magical beasts. Since it can't, no go.

Like RebelRogue pointed out, this appears to be specifically directed at preventing it from being targeted by spells like animal growth and awaken.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-01, 07:25 AM
Rare as it is that I come to defend the druid's powers :smallwink: , you seem to have quoted the text on the paladin's warhorse on p. 45 of the PHB. Do you have the 3.5 PHB or the 3.0?

- Giacomo

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 07:29 AM
Rare as it is that I come to defend the druid's powers :smallwink: , you seem to have quoted the text on the paladin's warhorse on p. 45 of the PHB. Do you have the 3.5 PHB or the 3.0?

- Giacomo
I just double-checked, and you're right. But I'm pretty sure it's in the errata! As I said: pretty confusing!

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 07:31 AM
Rare as it is that I come to defend the druid's powers :smallwink: , you seem to have quoted the text on the paladin's warhorse on p. 45 of the PHB. Do you have the 3.5 PHB or the 3.0?

- Giacomo

3.5. I'm not, as you may be implying, dense. I looked it up, it's there, and now you're saying I'm not even looking in the right book.

Seriously, did you even look, period, at page 36? Did your eyes go to that page? If it is not at the first paragraph of the sidebar, in your book, when you look at it right now, then maybe my copy is a horrible misprint. But it is most assuredly there in mine.

I know that the paladin's warhorse is a magical beast, and I'm not talking about anything related to the paladin. I am talking about the druid, in the druid section of the PHB, in a sidebar labeled the druid's animal companion. If that's somehow talking about the paladin's special mount, that's WotC's fault.


Edit:

The errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), does, in fact, correct it to say that it is treated like an animal, not like a magical beast.

The fact that it has been corrected in the errata, and thus the SRD is correct, means that it is indeed in the PHB, and I'm not totally crazy. Just out of date.

So yes, Giacomo, it is treated like an animal. No, the non-errata'd PHB does not state that.

Further edit:

My PHB is the first printing in 2003 of the 3.5 edition.


Final edit:

DAMN YOU WOTC!

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 07:36 AM
It's not in my book! And I looked up the errata! Appearantly, the Animal Companion does indeed stay an animal! Go look for yourselves: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHBErrata02062006.zip

Are there different versions of the 3.5 PHB?

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-01, 07:47 AM
Paladin 5/Druid 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Wild Plains Outrider 4.

Animal Companion: Lv21.
Special Mount: Lv19.

Feats:
Natural Bond.

Nothing else really matters other than spell choices.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-01, 07:48 AM
Are there different versions of the 3.5 PHB?Yes. Sadly, even though the entire .5 edition was errata to correct 3.0, they still messed some stuff up and print updated versions as they find it.:smallannoyed:

Kioran
2008-03-01, 08:08 AM
Ooooh, my seething hatred of Halflings. I need to overcome it, I know. For the sake of twinkage. Maybe my DM allows me to meet the Prereqs as a Goblin, but donīt count on it. The actual "PC" doesnīt matter that much anyway . itīs okay if he can headbutt the nuts of people........[/speciesist]

What Iīve come up with, so far, for the Meatsack:

Paladin 5/Druid 2/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/Druid 3 and 4

Feats, by lvl: Mounted Combat 1, Mounted Archery 3, Animal Affinity 6, Devoted Tracker 9, Natural Bond 12, up for grabs threafter.

Skills, by lvl, Assuming no Int Bonus:

lvl 5: Handle Animal +8, Ride +6
lvl 7: Handle Animal +8, Ride +6, Listen +4, Spot +4

Easy. A cakewalk. the Build breaks even at lvl 9, when I can add the boni for a lvl 6 Mount with a lvl 6 Animal companion, for +6HD, +8 Nat Armor, +3 Strength, +2 Dex and a moderate Intelligence, Imp Evasion and stuff. Nice........

At lvl 12, Iīll have the boni from a lvl 9 Mount and a lvl 13 Companion:

+10 HD, +12 Nat Armor, +5 Strength, +3 Dex, Speed Increase, Multiattack. Put it on a Wolf(with the Ability increases in Con +3):

HP: 119/119 AC: 31 Touch: 14 Flat: 27 Speed: 60 ft.
Attack: Bite +15 (1d8+6) (+Trip! Trip: +4)
Full Attack: Bite +15/+10 (1d8+6)
Str: 19 Dex: 19 Con: 18 Int: 7 Wis: 12 Cha: 6
Saves: Fort: +13 Ref: +13 Will: +5
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Track, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved critical (Bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Armor
Special attacks: Trip
Special Qualities/Defense: Improved Evasion, low-light vision, scent

Pretty insane, huh? Oh Yeah.....but stay tunes, it can get a lot worse.

Lvl 20: lvl 20 Companion, lvl 15 Mount. In itīs sum: +20 HD (Whatīs that? Ooh, an Epic Feat), +22 Natural Armor, +10 Strength, +6 Dex, Int 9
The wolf:

HP: 209/209 AC: 41 Touch: 16 Flat: 35 Speed: 60 ft.
Attack: Bite +24 (19-20, 1d8+10) (+Trip! Trip: +7)
Full Attack: Bite +24/+19 (19-20, 1d8+10)
Str: 24 Dex: 22 Con: 18 Int: 9 Wis: 12 Cha: 6
Saves: Fort: +17 Ref: +19 Will: +8
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Track, Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved critical (Bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Armor, Combat Reflexes, Improved Toughness, Fast Healing
Special attacks: Trip
Special Qualities/Defense: Improved Evasion, low-light vision, scent, Fast Healing 3, SR 20

That is not to far out there, especially since the damage output is mediocre, but remember - this all comes for free, with not a single GP invested, and is quite hardcore for that. Also, none of this requires DM approval....mwahaha

This is the most harmless variant. It can be more evil, Iīm sure it can be much worse. Suggestions? Ideas? Other Feats? A different companion to make into a mount? And if I can get the DM to okay another kind of animal as Paladin mount, Iīm set anyway.
Just looking for ways to make this even more perversely strong.....

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 08:16 AM
Further edit:

My PHB is the first printing in 2003 of the 3.5 edition.
Mine is "Special Edition October 2004", in which it is errata'ed. Ok, that explains it. None of us are mad! Hooray! :smallwink:


Ooooh, my seething hatred of Halflings. I need to overcome it, I know. For the sake of twinkage. Maybe my DM allows me to meet the Prereqs as a Goblin, but donīt count on it.
While I do love Halflings and Halfling Outriders in particular, I certainly miss a PrC for goblin wolf riders or something similar (unless it's in some obscure tome I've missed). They do get a racial bonus to Ride after all!

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 08:23 AM
Ashworm Dragoon, from sandstorm. You can perform a ritual to have it gain the abilities of your special mount. And thus your animal companion, since the two have been lumped together. All this without lowering your effective level for the other two classes very much, since it's progression in HD is better than druid or paladin alone.


Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/Ashworm dragoon 4/Halfling outrider 10 (ashworm dragoon 5/halfling outrider 9 has similar benefits).

16 effective druid level (with natural bond), 15 effective paladin level and +4 hd among other benefits all added onto something that's at least as good as a horse.

RebelRogue
2008-03-01, 08:27 AM
Ashworm Dragoon, from sandstorm. You can perform a ritual to have it gain the abilities of your special mount. And thus your animal companion, since the two have been lumped together.
One cannot help but wonder, if the resulting creature is an Animal or a Magical Beast!

(Sorry, I just had to :smallwink: )

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 08:29 AM
One cannot help but wonder, if the resulting creature is an Animal or a Magical Beast!

(Sorry, I just had to :smallwink: )

The ashworm starts as a magical beast. If that helps. :smallfrown:

Ryuuk
2008-03-01, 08:35 AM
Wait, wouldn't there be an alignment conflict in trying to multi class Paladin and Druid? Devoted Tracker seems to be based off ranger, not druid.

Zincorium
2008-03-01, 08:42 AM
Wait, wouldn't there be an alignment conflict in trying to multi class Paladin and Druid? Devoted Tracker seems to be based off ranger, not druid.

The animal companion feature of the beastmaster is the same as a ranger's, notice how my particular build doesn't include druid levels (and you might as well use beastmaster levels instead of druid anyway).

According to the actual text (and don't say DM fiat, this entire thing falls flat on it's face if the DM decides to step in) if you have the animal companion class feature, you can designate the special mount you have to receive those benefits.

Since the beastmaster class is pretty much a ranger PrC anyway, just giving an animal companion that's faster progression, you even have a basis for arguing it with the GM. Until you bring in halfling outrider's dual progression.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-01, 08:47 AM
There's also the Obtain Companion feat(not sure where) which gives you a companion as a druid of your level -3, and advances no matter what class you take. And it stacks with Natural Bond.:smallbiggrin:

Ryuuk
2008-03-01, 08:53 AM
Zincorium: Yeah, I see how it works for rangers and beastmasters just fine, but I'm just curious about the builds which seem to be using both Paladin and Druid levels. Stepping out of the alignment required for either class would make you lose your class features for that class.

Kioran
2008-03-01, 09:03 AM
Zincorium: Yeah, I see how it works for rangers and beastmasters just fine, but I'm just curious about the builds which seem to be using both Paladin and Druid levels. Stepping out of the alignment required for either class would make you lose your class features for that class.

Sadly enough, you are right. I will need to rework my build.......but thanks anyway, nice catch.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-03-01, 09:49 AM
instead of going paladin, take a one-level dip into Ranger Kinight of Furondity. It adds 6 levels of special mount for a one level dip. It's in Dragon Magazine #317.