PDA

View Full Version : Racial Penalty: Sterility



Lappy9000
2008-02-29, 07:25 PM
This is an interesting topic that came up at my gaming table a while back.
"So, wait, if a half-elf is a mix of two different species, won't he be sterile?" Since there are so many half species in D&D (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Half-Dragon, Half-Owlbear) I think it's a legitimate issue.

Many of the half-(whatever)'s in D&D are from two unique, yet usually similar species. Most hybrid species (the males at least) are infertile.

Wikipedia because I'm lazy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldane%27s_Rule).
I propose adding Half-Elves to this list. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_%28biology%29)

I suppose something like Half-Celestials, Infernals, or Dragons could pose a problem, because I presume magic of some sort is involved.

So, uh, yeah. Though I doubt (and really hope) that this won't ever need to come up at my gaming table.

Worira
2008-02-29, 07:28 PM
Two half-elves will produce half-elven children. I believe the same thing is the case for half-orcs, but I'm not sure.

Leon
2008-02-29, 07:29 PM
Sterility is really only a problem if your are a Mule

Lappy9000
2008-02-29, 07:30 PM
I know the rules say that, but I just think it's interesting given the real world conditions here.

(yeah, I know, if real world logic was applied to D&D, Dragons couldn't fly, etc.)

Mewtarthio
2008-02-29, 07:34 PM
Sterility is really only a problem if your are a Mule

Hey, if the Mule was playable, Lord knows I'd play him.
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-29, 07:37 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA good one

Zincorium
2008-02-29, 07:41 PM
At least in the Forgotten Realms setting, half elves and half orcs are definitely fertile, there are entire communities composed solely of half-breeds of one or another variety.

The really interesting thing is that, according to modern theories, this makes orcs, elves, and humans all different phenotypes of the same species.

Lastly, some hybrids, like Mul from the dark sun setting, are specifically mentioned as sterile, so the lack of a specific statement would lead one to believe that such is not the case.

[FLUX]
2008-02-29, 07:45 PM
I'm sure all the sex your player characters are having with half-breeds makes sterility a necessary evil.

Indon
2008-02-29, 07:45 PM
Hey, if the Mule was playable, Lord knows I'd play him.
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>

Psionics have yet to be in core, though.

Dervag
2008-02-29, 07:46 PM
I'm not sure. I mean, we don't really have evidence that elves are a different species in a way that would make them infertile with humans. Their racial traits suggest that they did not evolve naturally, because fast reproduction is a very handy survival rate, while having a long natural life expectancy usually isn't. There are too many things that can kill you no matter how long lived you are, unless you have great intelligence and technological or magical ability to protect you.

But it's nearly unimaginable that elves could have naturally evolved such a long life expectancy after evolving intelligence. Therefore, I think elves must be the product of genetic modifications, be they artificial or divine in origin.

In which case it's quite possible that they are genetically identical to humans, except for:
a)A few trivial phenotypical traits that give them lighter, more agile bodies but in no way inhibit them from breeding with humans, and
b)Whatever biochemical modifications make it effectively impossible for them to age except on a time scale measured in centuries to a human's years or decades. Which might create lethal mutations in a cross-breed.

But since we know they don't create lethal mutations, it seems that elven 'geriatric' modifications can breed true in humans, though they apparently aren't fully dominant genes, which is why half-elves don't get them all.

In which case the usual reasons why two species cannot interbreed don't apply. If elves are just humans with genetic modifications tacked on (or vice versa), then they wouldn't automatically be mutually infertile, nor would their offspring. Mules, for instance, are sterile because they don't get matching numbers of chromosomes from both parents. Why do we expect that to apply to half-elves?


Sterility is really only a problem if your are a MuleAlthough mules' racial stubborness is so great that some of them seemingly manage to breed anyway. Rarely.


Hey, if the Mule was playable, Lord knows I'd play him.
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>Got diplomancy?

Lappy9000
2008-02-29, 07:47 PM
At least in the Forgotten Realms setting, half elves and half orcs are definitely fertile, there are entire communities composed solely of half-breeds of one or another variety.

That's one thing that's really interesting about Eberron. It's assumed that half-orcs and half-elves are their own unique race (with exceptions) due to generations of inter-species breeding.

Overall, I try to discourage the idea of half-races just because the sheer amount of them on campaigns implies that Silver Dragons, etc. mate with humans on a weekly or so basis. I got fed up with it, so in the end I allowed half-elves and made half-orcs a unique race which splintered from orcs in ancient times (and gave them both neat-o racial feats).


The really interesting thing is that, according to modern theories, this makes orcs, elves, and humans all different phenotypes of the same species.

I've never heard that before. It's a pretty cool theory, actually.

Collin152
2008-02-29, 07:49 PM
They could be subspecies.
Similar enough to interbreed freely.

Zincorium
2008-02-29, 07:53 PM
I've never heard that before. It's a pretty cool theory, actually.

Yeah, I've actually had that theory since I first opened a PHB (1st edition) and saw the half-breeds. Reading Tolkien and figuring out that the orcs actually were elves at some point just confirmed it.


Honestly though, I don't like the idea of half-orcs and half-elves as a 'standard' race, if anything they should be unique and strange. The only time I don't let people play them, though, is in my homebrew setting where they're actually impossible.

Ascension
2008-02-29, 07:54 PM
The really interesting thing is that, according to modern theories, this makes orcs, elves, and humans all different phenotypes of the same species.

I'm actually a big proponent of this in fantasy... I think it's a lot more interesting if orcs, elves, and humans are like rottweilers, pomeranians, and terriers... or something like that. Half-elves are like Labradoodles, half-orcs are Catahoula Bulldogs.

Think of intermarriage in D&D as dog breeding. It helps.

Lappy9000
2008-02-29, 07:56 PM
Half-elves are like Labradoodles, half-orcs are Catahoula Bulldogs.

......You obtain 500 experience points for conquest of awesome.

Ascension
2008-02-29, 08:02 PM
[Elves] racial traits suggest that they did not evolve naturally, because fast reproduction is a very handy survival rate, while having a long natural life expectancy usually isn't.

But what evidence do we have to suggest that the humans came first? Elves were the originals, but they were too frail and didn't reproduce quickly enough. They evolved into humans, which were tougher, more adaptable, and reproduced more quickly, but less agile. The orcs evolved as an offshoot of humans optimized for living in hostile environments... hardy, strong, quick to mature, but unfortunately their intelligence faltered in the process. Still, their strengths were such that they managed to live on as a viable race despite their intellectual disadvantages.

And thank you, Lappy 9000. Just doing my part.

Chronos
2008-02-29, 08:09 PM
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>I weep to see that some folks consider Foundation and Empire to be obscure. What are these kids reading nowadays, anyway?


I'm actually a big proponent of this in fantasy... I think it's a lot more interesting if orcs, elves, and humans are like rottweilers, pomeranians, and terriers... or something like that. Half-elves are like Labradoodles, half-orcs are Catahoula Bulldogs.It should be noted, though, that unlike half-elves, labradoodles don't breed true. If you take two labradoodles and breed them, you'll get puppies which span the full range from pure labradore to pure poodles in every conceivable trait, resulting in a complete mishmash of mutts. In fact, this will be true of any cross-breeding using anything resembling real-world genetics. If you wanted to produce true-breeding labradoodles, you'd have to breed them for many, many generations, at each step breeding only those dogs which are closest to the labradoodle ideal (whatever that is), culling all of the rest (killing or at least neutering them). By which time, of course, the fad for designer mutts would have passed.

Ascension
2008-02-29, 08:12 PM
So don't let your half-elves breed true! Just houserule that breeding two half-elves is like playing genetic roulette. Maybe do a percentile roll to determine your racial traits.

ShadowSiege
2008-02-29, 08:24 PM
Hey, if the Mule was playable, Lord knows I'd play him.
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>

Damn it you beat me to it! I love those books.

Mewtarthio
2008-02-29, 08:33 PM
So don't let your half-elves breed true! Just houserule that breeding two half-elves is like playing genetic roulette. Maybe do a percentile roll to determine your racial traits.

I once considered a fantasy world like that. Make a list of elven traits, a corresponding list of human traits, and a third list of half-elven traits. I quickly realized, however, that humans have no unique traits. Seriously, what sort of traits would humans get that elves couldn't do better? Adaptability?

Now, if you change this to evlen and orcish traits, things look a bit more interesting...

Bag_of_Holding
2008-02-29, 08:44 PM
Unless the description says they breed true, such as in cases with: half-elf (human-elf), half-orc (human-orc), changeling (doppelganger-human), shifter (lycanthrope-human), I think they could be ruled infertile. Not impotent though; that will discourage anyone playing that kind of campaign (a campaign setting where fertility had to be house-ruled in) to play any half-breeds that does not breed true. That's my opinion on that subject anyway.




p.s. Hey, I'm an orc now! Lok-Tar!!

Jayngfet
2008-02-29, 09:33 PM
I always assumed humanoids and monsterous humanoids were subspecies, and the individuals were sub-subspecies, with enough genetic diversity to make things like dwarf/minotaur combo's impossible

also, where are half owlbears?

also, when did I become an orc?

Zincorium
2008-02-29, 09:42 PM
also, when did I become an orc?

When Sauron corrupted you from your original form and made you a being of loathing and rage.

Weren't you paying attention? Didn't the fact that you were swinging axes at trees instead of hugging them clue you in? Jeeze :smallwink: .

LibraryOgre
2008-02-29, 10:15 PM
FWIW, in Dark Sun half-dwarves were known as Muls, and were sterile (and could also walk or carry on a conversation for a number of days equal to their conversation score). Half-elves were fertile, though invariably abandoned by their elven kin.

Oh, and all of 'em? Human, dwarves, and elves? Mutant halflings.

Ganurath
2008-02-29, 10:20 PM
I weep to see that some folks consider Foundation and Empire to be obscure. What are these kids reading nowadays, anyway?Blogs on American Idol.

I don't think it really makes sense for half-elves and half-orcs to be sterile, since they're similiar enough, but half-dragons... If it ever came up in a game I DM, I'd say that sterility is only an issue if the parents are different types... Unless it's a half-celestial or half-fiend who is (specific gender to be determined later to put a fair restriction) so as to allow Aasimar and Tieflings.

Cruiser1
2008-02-29, 10:23 PM
Since Half Eves are a full PHB race, I don't think they should be sterile, where Half Elf + Half Elf = Half Elf. Just like how Elf + Human = Half Elf.

Because we don't have 1/4 Elves and 3/4 Elves, we should say that Half Elf + Human, and Half Elf + Elf, is a sterile combination. Or we can say that such combinations result in standard 50% Half-Elves. Consider the genetics of Human/Elf/Half Elf more like eye color instead of skin color, where you're either Elf, Human, or 50% Half Elf, where Half Elf is dominant like brown eyes are.

However, Celestial/Fiendish bloodlines seem to be more like skin color, where you can be anywhere along the continuum between 100% Celestial and 100% Human. You can have the Half Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template (50% Celestial), you can be an Aasimar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#aasimar) (more like 1/4 Celestial), or Lesser Aasimar (more like 1/8 Celestial). The Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#celestial) alternate rule with its Minor, Intermediate, and Major degrees also seems to support the concept of a continuum between the two base races.

Collin152
2008-02-29, 10:30 PM
When Sauron corrupted you from your original form and made you a being of loathing and rage.

Weren't you paying attention? Didn't the fact that you were swinging axes at trees instead of hugging them clue you in? Jeeze :smallwink: .

Easy to miss, obviosuly a variant with a wisdom penalty instead of charisma.

FlyMolo
2008-02-29, 10:32 PM
You have a planet with multiple intelligent races, with magic. Therefore, intelligence+time=awesome power. So there's a strong pressure to select for intelligence. Longer lives=more experience=more reshaping of reality=more kids. Lather, rinse, repeat. Biologically, turn up the metabolism of an elf, and you basically get a human. Thicker, stronger, more adaptable, and much shorter lived because of all those nasty free radicals. Turn it up again, poof Orc. And if you're living in a nasty environment where you're likely to die at any time, this favors Orcs, while a stable environment(over centuries) favors elves, and a moderate, changing environment favors humans. Hey presto, selection pressure-> speciation.

Darwin would be proud.

Jayngfet
2008-02-29, 10:55 PM
When Sauron corrupted you from your original form and made you a being of loathing and rage.

Weren't you paying attention? Didn't the fact that you were swinging axes at trees instead of hugging them clue you in? Jeeze :smallwink: .

huh, I was wondering why I didn't notice those stone doors on the way to my computer

ColdBrew
2008-02-29, 11:19 PM
Do I have to break out the Book of Erotic Fantasy and start quoting rules for cross-species fertility? 'Cause I will.

Alleine
2008-02-29, 11:56 PM
Hey, if the Mule was playable, Lord knows I'd play him.
</obscure Isaac Asimov reference>

Ahh, good times, good times.
Gotta love Asimov.
Who cares if you are sterile? You own the galaxy.

TheThan
2008-02-29, 11:56 PM
Do I have to break out the Book of Erotic Fantasy and start quoting rules for cross-species fertility? 'Cause I will.

Just keep it rated G, rumor is there are kids on these forums.

Gamemaster
2008-03-01, 01:14 AM
Since this was all based off of Tolkien (regardless of Gygax's transparent denials), we might as well go back to the source.

Elves were the first race.
Orcs were the second race, created as a corruption of Elves.
Humans were the third race, but created as intended companions to elves.
Humans and elves could breed; later Sauron found that humans and orcs could breed.
Dwarves were an accidentally created race.

You can change the fluff if you want, but that's why the rules are as they are.

Rutee
2008-03-01, 01:16 AM
Just keep it rated G, rumor is there are kids on these forums.

G- G-rated BoEF?

...This sounds like win. I'll make the popcorn!

Ascension
2008-03-01, 01:25 AM
G- G-rated BoEF?

...This sounds like win. I'll make the popcorn!

Well, you see, sometimes a man and a dragon love each other very much... :smallbiggrin:

ColdBrew
2008-03-01, 03:08 AM
G- G-rated BoEF?

...This sounds like win. I'll make the popcorn!
That, next to your avatar, is giving me a frankly creepy vibe.

Konig
2008-03-01, 10:49 AM
I used K's 'Races of War' as a starting point here. An interpretation:

The humans are basically a blueprint. A race stripped of most defining features - that's why they're so adaptable & flexible... and why they're so 'corruptible'. It's why you can combine human with virtually anything to get your Genasi, half orcs, half elves, half dragons, whatever.

Elves are the creations of ancient wizards. Basically, if you're a wizard a few thousand years in the past, you want to surround yourself with beauty, servitors that live long enough to learn to do any task really well, and have surplus magical power of their own. The creators of the elves have since either become elves themselves (another example: Gith) or disappeared into the annals of time.

Half-elves are essentially a diluting of 'elfness'. By necessity as a socially acceptable halfbreed race, they learn to be more diplomatic & aware of their surroundings. Over the decades, seeking companionship & like souls, half-elves gravitate towards one another & form subcommunities of their own, breeding true.

Orcs are a failed attempt to weaponize the basic human template. You could say that they're the scraps that were left over when you extract all the ugliness & savage nature from what should be the elves. You could say that they're something that was created/designed by a god, warlord or magus. Regardless, orcs get the short end of the stick... they're strong enough to wreak havoc & win a given battle, but lack the brains & charisma to win an overall war. Orcs get forced into the uninhabitable areas as they lose a given campaign, which just forces them to raid more & fight harder.

Half Orcs are basically what you get when you take the worst traits of the orc & the human. Standing shoulder to shoulder with another race, the half orcs tend to fall short. They're the product of a union you don't want to think about... either an orc with an unwilling human (bad) or a half orc with another half orc ('I really don't want to think about those things breeding'). They're reviled by humans for being ugly, brutish & unintelligent, and rejected by orcs for being weak and soft. Those that avoid a dire fate ("Hey, let's sacrifice that half orc kid to Hextor, nobody'll care enough to ask questions.") generally lack the resources to do more than adventure (which gets them status, if nothing else). Occasionally you'll get meetings of one half orc with another, but given their somewhat abrasive personalities, they don't necessarily bond long enough to do more than sire one or so children, and can't form a serious community as the half elves do.

Now, if you make half orcs sterile... that's like kicking someone while he's already down. Orcs prize masculinity, and a half orc who can't even make a child is going to be mocked, if not worse. As a half orc among humans, it takes away a measure of hope - that the ugly person might find true love and make a family of his/her own. You have to realize that mortals, as living creatures, desire to make a mark on the world. If you deny an aggressive creature all hope of doing so through the siring of children... you're going to see some trying to make their mark through violence. Take X half-orcs & put them in cults of Erythnul (or any CE deity of slaughter), make all your half orcs angrier, darker & more ruthless... they don't have anything to lose.

If we make half elves sterile... we're not going to see subcommunities of half elves. We're going to see some half elves take roles as the political sycophant - an attractive companion that's virtually free of potential scandal (ie. unwanted children & rumored 'unions'). Remember that mortals need to leave their mark, and for a race with natural social abilities, getting involved in politics is a way to shape the world. Half elves make stellar spies, consorts, handservants, royal nursemaids, ambassadors and more, using their natural abilities to give them an edge and buy their own comfort.

MightyIgoo
2008-03-01, 06:00 PM
I was under the impression that, in a system where dragons can mate with damn near anything, and often do, the best explanation that arises is "magic!"

Why are half-elves and half-orcs fertile? Magic! Why are half-illithids possible? Magic! Why is a giant flying lizard with a breath weapon genetically compatible with a hairless primate? MAGIC!

DarknessLord
2008-03-01, 06:26 PM
That, next to your avatar, is giving me a frankly creepy vibe.

What are you talking about? If those shows/books/movies we enjoyed as children taught us anything is that
The process of making a baby minus the concept of sex, is the result of pure love (and maybe a cartoonish bird).
Ergo, it's perfectly in character for her avatar. (Love freak Flonne, FTW)

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-01, 08:35 PM
If they get Racial Penalty: Sterility, then they should also get Racial Advantage: Heterosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vigor) - +2 Str and +2 Con. I mean, if we're going to get all genetic about it.

Dervag
2008-03-01, 08:58 PM
Ahh, good times, good times.
Gotta love Asimov.
Who cares if you are sterile? You own the galaxy.You.

The Mule was not a happy person.


Why are half-elves and half-orcs fertile? Magic! Why are half-illithids possible? Magic! Why is a giant flying lizard with a breath weapon genetically compatible with a hairless primate? MAGIC!Because when a dragon polymorphs, they polymorph down to the genetic level? At least, that'd be my theory.

The offspring only inherits any dragon traits because each dragon carries a strong magical 'imprint' that passes itself onto offspring regardless of their DNA. The imprint tries to restore the half-dragon to draconic form, but fails because it isn't working with draconic DNA. So you get a human or whatever with reptilian surface features.

Collin152
2008-03-01, 09:21 PM
Ah, but genetics need not exist.
For instance, a child physical form is similar to it's parents because their souls are similar, and a persons apearence is based on the soul inhabiting it.
Or some other, equivilant magical-sounding explanation.

The Extinguisher
2008-03-01, 09:33 PM
Hmm, if physics kills catgirls, what are we killing with biology?

I just like to make half- races as sterile. I don't have many half- races to begin with (other than with demons and angels), I just like laying down ground rules.

As for the topics of species, I'd put humans, elves, orcs, dwarves and other similar races under the same genus, but different species.

Collin152
2008-03-01, 10:20 PM
Hmm, if physics kills catgirls, what are we killing with biology?

Cat-girl crossbreeds.

RebelRogue
2008-03-02, 06:21 PM
Well, I just had to check what The Book of Erotic Fantasy has to say on the subject (I swear I only own that book because I got it as a birthday gift, m'kay!), and FWIW it states that half-elves and -orcs are indeed fertile.

Talya
2008-03-02, 06:47 PM
Cat-girl crossbreeds.


That's it. I'm making a half cat-girl, half celestial, half fiendish, half mathematician factotum//duskblade.

Flickerdart
2008-03-02, 06:53 PM
On topic of races that would be sterile, what about the Elan? They are, after all, "manufactured".

Hyozo
2008-03-02, 07:10 PM
On topic of races that would be sterile, what about the Elan? They are, after all, "manufactured".

I think that is stated somewhere in their fluff, and I know it is in the fluff of another manufactured race; the dragonborn.

Collin152
2008-03-02, 07:16 PM
That's it. I'm making a half cat-girl, half celestial, half fiendish, half mathematician factotum//duskblade.

So, one parent was a Cat-Celestial, one was a Mathematician-Fiend, and the child is a girl?
I want to stat out the parents now...

BardicDuelist
2008-03-02, 07:22 PM
You know, the BoEF would be an interesting read if you could get a text-only version. The pictures are the most disturbing thing ever printed in a RPG book.

Talya
2008-03-02, 08:17 PM
You know, the BoEF would be an interesting read if you could get a text-only version. The pictures are the most disturbing thing ever printed in a RPG book.

The pictures only make it hard to read at work or around other people. I've got it on PDF along with just about everything else.

Collin152
2008-03-02, 08:33 PM
The pictures only make it hard to read at work or around other people.

Which are all around good times to read this book in general.

The Professor
2008-03-03, 12:51 AM
That's it. I'm making a half cat-girl, half celestial, half fiendish, half mathematician factotum//duskblade.

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate, hate you!

Khanderas
2008-03-03, 06:54 AM
I see different viable options when it comes to fantasy crossbreeding.

1. Elves and Humans (and whatever else) are distinct species. As such they cannot interbreed at all.

2. Crossbreeding is possible, but produce a sterile half-X. While advantageous for some things (intelligent half-orcs, half-elves who live longer but has the passion of mortals), it happens very rarely because everyone knows it will end in tragedy (the offspring naturally objects to being a sterile half somthing, unable to produce heirs (because of that they wont be in line for succession)).

3. Crossbreeding produces halfbreeds. If a half elf mates with a full elf, the result is a full elf.

4. As 3, except it is a 3/4 elf and the generation after that full elf (with human ancestry traces, such as a non-elflike haircolor / eyecolor.

5. Ignore all of the above. It's magic / a Wizard did it.


Myself I am in favor of 2. It makes half-X rare, tragic and more prone to adventuring buissness. And it makes the different species distinct.

RAW, in the few places where it is even hinted at problebly sets nr 4 as the "true" option.

Wraithy
2008-03-03, 07:50 AM
I think we're all forgetting the most important issue here:
Where are all the elven-orcs, or orcish-elves?
Technicall we're supposed to call them owlbears:smallwink:

Khanderas
2008-03-03, 08:02 AM
I think we're all forgetting the most important issue here:
Where are all the elven-orcs, or orcish-elves?
Technicall we're supposed to call them owlbears:smallwink:
I believe their respective gods both smite the kid, and its parents.