Do you think Thanh will be a good leader?

[Callista]

Just what the title says. He's got experience and determination going for him, but is he good enough at thinking out of the box to be a good Resistance leader?

[Lorn]

He's a Paladin, isn't he? Therefore Lawful Good?

I was under the impression that Chaotic Good was the definition of a resistance leader. Surely, he'd have problems? He won't really think of people lying, or maybe feinting during a raid - sending a larger battlegroup off somewhere else or something.

Yeah, he'd probably be a good leader. But not, unfortunately, as good as Hayley. Chances are he'd still obey her leadership, though, seeing as he'd probably feel a sense of loyalty. So, well, until she leaves, it'll be fine...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Truthfully, I have my doubts. Thahn is a solid Paladin, and did fine in the fight up to the point he failed his save. But random chance has a role (roll) in any game/fight, so I don't hold that against him.

But so far, he seems a bit too devoted to the Paladin Code to be a good Resistance Leader. As a Paladin, he has to fight the fair fight, which means no ambushes, no "unconventional" tactics, or any of the other tactics that allow Resistances or Insurgencies to overcome larger and better equipped forces.

Unless... Thahn gets hold of a copy of "The Art of War," and decides that Sun Tzu was honorable, and that if you are outnumbered 10 to 1, you can use Hit and Run tactics.

[Tawkis]

He's a Paladin, isn't he? Therefore Lawful Good?
I was under the impression that Chaotic Good was the definition of a resistance leader. Surely, he'd have problems? He won't really think of people lying, or maybe feinting during a raid - sending a larger battlegroup off somewhere else or something.
Yeah, he'd probably be a good leader. But not, unfortunately, as good as Hayley. Chances are he'd still obey her leadership, though, seeing as he'd probably feel a sense of loyalty. So, well, until she leaves, it'll be fine...

Please show me where it's stated that alignment determines a leader ability to think outside the box?
Or show me for that matter where it says that a paladin cannot use innovative strategies. I've never read anything that says a paladin cannot be a devious adversary, just because people like to play paladin's as lawful stupid doesn't mean they should.
I will grant he's been a little overzealous, but so was Haley until she was placed into authority.
In Thanh's favour is the fact that he sided with Haley, thus rightly or wrongly came to the correct conclusion as to what happened before the battle. At least he can see things the way they are.

[Kish]

I don't think he's going to be a good leader. That's not to say no Lawful Good character could be, just that it appears Thanh has no use for subtlety, and Xykon could smash the Resistance with one finger.

[factotum]

Erm...how on earth are we supposed to be able to tell? We have maybe half a dozen panels of Thanh acting when he wasn't under Tsukiko's domination, and I really don't see how anyone can make a reliable estimate of his character from that.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Erm...how on earth are we supposed to be able to tell? We have maybe half a dozen panels of Thanh acting when he wasn't under Tsukiko's domination, and I really don't see how anyone can make a reliable estimate of his character from that.

This comic is based on minimalism, and in the minimum time we saw Thahn before he was Dominated, he followed an "Attack From the Front" mindset. He hits hard and well, and uses his Paladin powers against the undead in the solid and predictable (and effective) manner.

But at no point has he done anything "outside of the box" on his own.

[Chronos]

Well, he will at least take his duties seriously, and consider it his responsibility to do the best job he can. On that score, there's no problem. The biggest question is how good a job he can do, which is subject to question. As pointed out before, he's not one for subtlety, which is essential for a successful Resistance.

Then, too, though, he's probably wise enough to recognize his shortcomings, and pick advisers to fill in the gaps in his own ability. And he'll also have the huge advantage of having the entire Resistance unified under him, instead of fighting against each other, so even if his leadership is less capable than Haley's, the movement will probably still be more successful under him than it was before.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

As a paladin he probably has high Wis and Cha, so he can definitely be a good leader, and the code means he'll definitely be a "good" leader. The problem is the section of the paladin's code that says he can not lie or cheat, both of which are sometimes necessary for a resistance to survive. If he levels in Grey Guard, then yes, he'll probably be as good or better than Haley, if he doesn't then he'll be losing either class features or followers fairly quickly.

Technically, he should already have fallen, as he cannot associate with evil characters (Belkar) or help those that will use his aid for evil or chaotic ends (the definition of a resistance).

[MorkaisChosen]

Reinstating the legitimate authority isn't Chaotic.

I don't want to turn this thread into another definition-of-Lawful-and-Chaotic, but it needs saying.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

As a paladin he probably has high Wis and Cha, so he can definitely be a good leader, and the code means he'll definitely be a "good" leader. The problem is the section of the paladin's code that says he can not lie or cheat, both of which are sometimes necessary for a resistance to survive. If he levels in Grey Guard, then yes, he'll probably be as good or better than Haley, if he doesn't then he'll be losing either class features or followers fairly quickly.

Technically, he should already have fallen, as he cannot associate with evil characters (Belkar) or help those that will use his aid for evil or chaotic ends (the definition of a resistance).

The key word is "knowingly." As long as Thahn isn't informed of Belkar's alighment, and Thahn doesn't use "Detect Evil" on Belkar, Thahn is good to go.

[Alfryd]

There's nothing inherently chaotic about Thanh's aims here, it's just that the kind of tactics suited to an underground resistance movement are not terribly compatible with the general paladin ethos.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The key word is "knowingly." As long as Thahn isn't informed of Belkar's alighment, and Thahn doesn't use "Detect Evil" on Belkar, Thahn is good to go.Panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html) filler

[Souju]

i retract my observation...damn smite evil

[Sstoopidtallkid]

we know he's lawful good, but where does it say he's a paladin?Panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html) filler

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html) filler

That wasn't "Detect Evil," it was "Smite Evil," and directed at the wight. Had Belkar been hit, it would have done the additional "Smiting" damage, and given Belkar away... But a miss is as good as a mile. :smallbiggrin:

It's often considered impolite to cast detect alignment on your allies, so Thahn wouldn't do so without good reason. Even though Thahn was using his paladin powers, he has never directly used them against (or for) Belkar.

Lawful Good does not equal Lawful Stupid. People are always trying to take away a paladin's power when the paladin is just trying to do his or her job as well as they possibly can. A paladin can't associate with someone they know to be evil, but there is no requirement that they run a credit and background check on every individual that enters their sphere!

[Wych]

Panel 4. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html) filler

I wouldn't say that conclusively shows Than knows belkar is evil, a smite evil still hurts.

As for whether he would be a good leader, well from what we have seen I don't think he would be that great, he strikes me as the sort who doesn't necessarily think that the end can justify the means, and is extra limited by the fact that as a paladin he is at risk of falling.

[ShellBullet]

I think we are forgetting one important point.

We do not have any information about Sapphire Guards paladin code. We can say that being in same party with evil character does not make them fall ( at laest none of paladins have fallen yet, despite having Belkar on their side ) and they must to some degree to be honorouble in battle...At laest be honorouble to word and not to spirit...

[David Argall]

Please show me where it's stated that alignment determines a leader ability to think outside the box?
Lawful means follow the rules, respect tradition [look down on new and different tactics], tell the truth [when the existance of a resistance depends on hiding and being dishonest].


Or show me for that matter where it says that a paladin cannot use innovative strategies.
It's more a matter of won't than can't.


I've never read anything that says a paladin cannot be a devious adversary,
Where have you read that he can be?
But have you not read the tales of the real-life paladins? And of their many cases of rejecting safe and sensible tactics and dishonorable or cowardly?


In Thanh's favour is the fact that he sided with Haley, thus rightly or wrongly came to the correct conclusion as to what happened before the battle. At least he can see things the way they are.
Probably not actually. While we are eye-witnesses, Thanh is not, and his presumptive information is that Shojo was killed and Miko arrested and Hinjo is telling this distinctly suspicious story. Thanh is presumably reasoning that a paladin does not lie, so therefore the impossible tale that the city's greatest hero murdered Lord Shojo must be true. The other resistance leaders are not so trusting of paladin honor and so come to alternate conclusions that are at least as logical, even if incorrect.

[ShellBullet]

Lawful means follow the rules, respect tradition [look down on new and different tactics], tell the truth [when the existance of a resistance depends on hiding and being dishonest].

Respecting traditions doesn't not mean blindly following them or looking down anything new, it just mean respecting traditions...

And what is your point with telling the truth? Do you seriously believe that Than will make speech to his enemies about his tactics? Paladin can't lie, but he can be quiet...


It's more a matter of won't than can't.

Miko used pretty innotative strategy when she fought against ogres and she didn't lose her Paladin status.


Where have you read that he can be?
But have you not read the tales of the real-life paladins? And of their many cases of rejecting safe and sensible tactics and dishonorable or cowardly?

That just mean, that you haven't read them, not that there isn't any...


Probably not actually. While we are eye-witnesses, Thanh is not, and his presumptive information is that Shojo was killed and Miko arrested and Hinjo is telling this distinctly suspicious story. Thanh is presumably reasoning that a paladin does not lie, so therefore the impossible tale that the city's greatest hero murdered Lord Shojo must be true. The other resistance leaders are not so trusting of paladin honor and so come to alternate conclusions that are at least as logical, even if incorrect.

Or maybe he could see, how the things were. It's really hard to judge Thann, because we have seen so little about him...However He should have some posititive modifiers for his wisdom.

[Kish]

Or maybe he could see, how the things were. It's really hard to judge Thann, because we have seen so little about him...However He should have some posititive modifiers for his wisdom.
That's also an assumption. We've never seen him cast a spell. Turn Undead is Charisma-based. Smite Evil is Charisma-based. His Wisdom would affect his Will save, which has not made a great showing so far.

Mind you, I blink at the claim that the ideas "the Order of the Stick corrupted Hinjo" and "Hinjo, a paladin, murdered Shojo to seize his throne" are at all logical on any level.

[ShellBullet]

That's also an assumption. We've never seen him cast a spell. Turn Undead is Charisma-based. Smite Evil is Charisma-based. His Wisdom would affect his Will save, which has not made a great showing so far.

Mind you, I blink at the claim that the ideas "the Order of the Stick corrupted Hinjo" and "Hinjo, a paladin, murdered Shojo to seize his throne" are at all logical on any level.

I know, thats why i used should and not has...Also it could be that he just rolled poorly when he was dominated, so we can't make any assumptions about that either.

[Nerdanel]

A different speculative possibility:

1. Dominate person has a duration of days.

2. Thanh never actually received magical dispelment which would have made sure that he was free.

3. By simply concentrating, Tsukiko was capable of experiencing what Thanh did, filtered by his brain.

4. Belkar called Mr. Scruffy away from Tsukiko, making sure that she could concentrate.

5. Tsukiko could give Thanh telepathic commands from afar.

6. Tsukiko could have seen what Haley was attempting and telepathically ordered Thanh to act normal, which he proceeded to do. Thanh wouldn't have gotten a saving throw in this situation.

7. End result: all three resistances going to fall to Xykon in one basket if this speculation is accurate and Cloister doesn't stop the remote control aspect. Good for Haley that she is going away.


Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.
-- from the text of Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)

[Zordrath]

Seems unlikely, since there was a visual difference (the eyes) between dominated Than and non-dominated Than.

Would be an interesting plot twist, though. :smallamused:

[Jayabalard]

Miko used pretty innotative strategy when she fought against ogres and she didn't lose her Paladin status.In case you missed it, Miko was written as the epitome of a D&D paladin that is played by the letter of the rules rather than by the spirit of the rules. Since she's by definition a "badly played paladin" she's a very bad counter example


That just mean, that you haven't read them, not that there isn't any...Interesting that you just evade the question here... Does this mean that you lack any counter examples?

[Flickerdart]

A different speculative possibility:

1. Dominate person has a duration of days.

2. Thanh never actually received magical dispelment which would have made sure that he was free.

3. By simply concentrating, Tsukiko was capable of experiencing what Thanh did, filtered by his brain.

4. Belkar called Mr. Scruffy away from Tsukiko, making sure that she could concentrate.

5. Tsukiko could give Thanh telepathic commands from afar.

6. Tsukiko could have seen what Haley was attempting and telepathically ordered Thanh to act normal, which he proceeded to do. Thanh wouldn't have gotten a saving throw in this situation.

7. End result: all three resistances going to fall to Xykon in one basket if this speculation is accurate and Cloister doesn't stop the remote control aspect. Good for Haley that she is going away.


-- from the text of Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)


Cloister might not stop the Dominate effect, but from what we've seen of the descriptions of Cloister, it would stop the "experiencing" part of Dominate, since it's pretty much identical to scrying. So, while Tsukiko could command Thahn on the battlefield, she isn't likely to reach him where she can't see him.

That's not to say she can't still command him to "act naturally" and convince him to give up his troops in the heart of battle or something.

[Tawkis]

Lawful means follow the rules, respect tradition [look down on new and different tactics], tell the truth [when the existance of a resistance depends on hiding and being dishonest].
What rules take precedence? I would suggest that the rules of say, protecting your people from undeath and slavery take precedence over declaring yourself as an enemy.
Respecting is different than blindly following tradition, also paladins are a very combat focused class.
Telling the truth, yes a paladin should feel obligated to be honest and forthright when dealing with his comrades. However, ambushing is not fundamentally dishonest... it's just showing good tactical sense.
I recall a rather intelligent statement that went something like this. "In combat an attacker chooses the time, and the defender chooses the place. An ambush (the only ideal resistance-based combat) occurs when you allow the attacker to choose both the time and place.
I would argue that Thanh is also a soldier and understands the limitations of his force.
Class and alignment do not define an action be appropriate. The factors surrounding an action determine whether it is appropriate.




It's more a matter of won't than can't.

Why? He's been working with Haley and her tactics for sometime, if what he's been doing has violated his code shouldn't he be tan instead of blue?



Where have you read that he can be?
But have you not read the tales of the real-life paladins? And of their many cases of rejecting safe and sensible tactics and dishonorable or cowardly?

I have nothing on the top of my head. I will point out that just because something isn't common does not mean that it is untrue or invalid. I would suggest that this is an agree to disagree point.


Probably not actually. While we are eye-witnesses, Thanh is not, and his presumptive information is that Shojo was killed and Miko arrested and Hinjo is telling this distinctly suspicious story. Thanh is presumably reasoning that a paladin does not lie, so therefore the impossible tale that the city's greatest hero murdered Lord Shojo must be true. The other resistance leaders are not so trusting of paladin honor and so come to alternate conclusions that are at least as logical, even if incorrect. Perfectly fair, I was making a assumption and I happily retract it.

[ShellBullet]

In case you missed it, Miko was written as the epitome of a D&D paladin that is played by the letter of the rules rather than by the spirit of the rules. Since she's by definition a "badly played paladin" she's a very bad counter example

My point was that paladins can use innotative strategies not that Miko was good paladin.


Interesting that you just evade the question here... Does this mean that you lack any counter examples?

He didn't even have examples!!!

He just asked, if the poster hadn't read anything about real-life paladins, yet didn't even bother to tell about such book. He didn't tell: title, author, nothing...

[Callista]

I don't think it's his code so much as his mentality. If you've been a paladin in a big, important city, you probably don't have a stitch of experience working against a superior enemy, nor working in secret, nor leading a motley group of people who don't agree about a lot of things. Your experience is with taking and maybe giving orders, with honorable battles, with keeping order and maybe working in some kind of police capacity.

If he's Lawful, which he obviously is, he won't be as flexible as he needs to be. But if he's wise enough to listen to the Resistance folk who *are* that flexible, I think he'll do all right. He seems to have a decent degree of humility--meaning he's skipped the Paladin's worst (on average) failing, and probably meaning he's got a decent Wisdom score too.

[David Argall]

What rules take precedence?
It doesn't matter. Any set of rules will conflict with some of the variety of situations in a resistance situation.



I would suggest that the rules of say, protecting your people from undeath and slavery take precedence over declaring yourself as an enemy.
But your example implies "I know we are supposed to be good and honorable, but let's be "practical" and violate everything we stand for." The paladin rejects such reasoning [which is why there is a PrC called the Grey Guard]. The paladin insists he can do both, protecting his people and declaring his status.



Telling the truth, yes a paladin should feel obligated to be honest and forthright when dealing with his comrades. However, ambushing is not fundamentally dishonest... it's just showing good tactical sense.
Of course it is good tactical sense. It's also cowardly and treacherous, and not proper paladin behavior. We don't require the paladin refuse to ambush because there are honorable exceptions, but these are just that, exceptions, and our paladin looks at ambush with distaste.


I would argue that Thanh is also a soldier and understands the limitations of his force.
Class and alignment do not define an action be appropriate. The factors surrounding an action determine whether it is appropriate.
And class and alignment are two of those factors.


He's been working with Haley and her tactics for sometime, if what he's been doing has violated his code shouldn't he be tan instead of blue?
Commanders and commanded are not the same. With Haley as his superior officer, he can properly do what is ordered in a great many cases where he could not order it.


just because something isn't common does not mean that it is untrue or invalid.
True, but irrelevant. We are asking here about the odds Thanh will be a good leader. The fact there is a 1% chance he will do well instead of a zero% chance doesn't stop us from slamming the door in his face and looking for a leader with a better chance. There is very little we know about Thanh and that little makes him a typical paladin. So we must judge him as a typical paladin, not the exception.



Miko was written as the epitome of a D&D paladin that is played by the letter of the rules rather than by the spirit of the rules. Since she's by definition a "badly played paladin" she's a very bad counter example
No, she is a fine example. But...
a-She is only an example and not a general case.
b-She follows the rules suggested. She rejects the idea of a suprise attack and openly approaches the foe. She has a very clever tactic in mind, but paladins, like melee people in general, are in general low intelligence and are not going to come up with these clever tactics that often. Few paladins are going to prosper in a situation that requires that intelligence.



He didn't even have examples!!!

He just asked, if the poster hadn't read anything about real-life paladins, yet didn't even bother to tell about such book. He didn't tell: title, author, nothing...
Those examples are hardly so rare that they should need citing. However...
From the crusades just before King Richard the Great made his attempt...
100 knights charged 5000 troops under Saladim because one of their number said it would be cowardly to retreat. About 5 survived.
Then the knightly army, instead of staying safely behind its defense and letting a shortage of water force Saladim to retreat, headed across that almost waterless desert so they could attack while the knights were fatigued from the journey.
Going to China, we have the story of the much honored Duke of Sung, who refused to attack an enemy army as it crossed a river, and Mao Tse Tung's comment "I am not the Duke of Sung."

And we have Haley's advice to Thanh in 535.

[LtNOWIS]

Of course it is good tactical sense. It's also cowardly and treacherous, and not proper paladin behavior. We don't require the paladin refuse to ambush because there are honorable exceptions, but these are just that, exceptions, and our paladin looks at ambush with distaste.


Um, what? Since when is ambush dishonorable, as opposed to a perfectly legitimate military tactic? A lawful, by-the-book military leader would be completely ok with it.

Remember, Roy is a fine example of a lawful good character. And he's had his fair share of irregular tactics, lying, etc.


I don't think it's his code so much as his mentality. If you've been a paladin in a big, important city, you probably don't have a stitch of experience working against a superior enemy, nor working in secret, nor leading a motley group of people who don't agree about a lot of things. Your experience is with taking and maybe giving orders, with honorable battles, with keeping order and maybe working in some kind of police capacity.


From what we know of his pre-war days, it looks like he did at least one solitary "away mission," for what that's worth.


That all being said, Thanh isn't perfect. His mentality is more "Righteous vengeance" than "survival," which could cause some problems. Hopefully he'll get the counsel of Niu and others.

[Castamir]

"Thanh isn't perfect" is an euphemism. He's about the worst leader the Resistance could have, short of an outright traitor.

[BRC]

"Thanh isn't perfect" is an euphemism. He's about the worst leader the Resistance could have, short of an outright traitor.
Thahn isn't perfect true, but remember, he dosn't think he is. He didn't want to become the leader of the resistance and dosn't think he'll do a good job. This is important, because it means he will listen to the advice of others and not assume that it is a good idea because he thought of it.

[Niknokitueu]

Personally, I think that Thanh will have many small problems with being an 'effective' resistance leader, but when all is said and done, he was the best man for the job at the time...

Cons:
The guy is a paladin. What's worse, he seems to be the 'proper' definition of a paladin (as opposed to the 'Miko' definition...).

Pros:
He knows his weaknesses. He may still believe that a frontal assault under cover of full daylinght is the best way to win a battle, but he also knows that he does not have enough men for that tactic to work.

Hopefully his aides will be able to turn him into a figurehead: a case of 'look he is the boss, and he is a paladin, so you know he is doing his best in a selfless manner', whilst the people really running the show can get up to any number of sneaky or downright dishonest things... Just don't tell the boss...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[ShellBullet]

Those examples are hardly so rare that they should need citing. However...
From the crusades just before King Richard the Great made his attempt...
100 knights charged 5000 troops under Saladim because one of their number said it would be cowardly to retreat. About 5 survived.
Then the knightly army, instead of staying safely behind its defense and letting a shortage of water force Saladim to retreat, headed across that almost waterless desert so they could attack while the knights were fatigued from the journey.
Going to China, we have the story of the much honored Duke of Sung, who refused to attack an enemy army as it crossed a river, and Mao Tse Tung's comment "I am not the Duke of Sung."

Since you are talking about knights, that example can applied to almost half of melee classes, fighter, crusader, knight and paladin.
Also all of those examples are examples of stupidity or narrowmindess and not actually nature of paladins...

Here is what Paladin was according Wiki
( I know it isn't best of examples of getting realible information...


A paladin (derivative terms from palatine, and Latin palatinus, plural palatini) was a high-level official in numerous countries of medieval and early modern Europe.

The term paladin was first used in Ancient Rome for a chamberlain of the Emperor, and also for the imperial palace guard, called the Scholae Palatinae by Constantine. In the early Middle Ages, the meaning changed and the term was used for one of the highest officials of the Catholic Church in the pope's service and also for one of the major noblemen of the Holy Roman Empire, who was then named Count Palatine. Similar titles were also used in 19th century Hungary and in the German Empire and United Kingdom during the early 20th century.

[pjackson]

"Thanh isn't perfect" is an euphemism. He's about the worst leader the Resistance could have, short of an outright traitor.

The two faction leaders would have be worse, as would Belkar, and at least 99% of the resistance.

He has the advantage of being a Paladin. People trust him because Paladins can be trusted. Thus he has been able to unite the resistance, and is probably the only person in the city they would unite behind. That makes him the best possible leader they could have.

[Remirach]

He'll do fine. He'll do a good job keeping the Resistance unified and their morale up. Like Haley says, they'll eat up his "righteous vengeance" shtick and ask for seconds. "Leader" doesn't mean he has to be a control freak. When it comes to strategizing, he'll lay out the basic objectives and let his lieutenants hammer it out from there. He gets veto power over any plan of attack he strongly objects to but he'll probably be content to let wiser, sneakier heads do most of the guiding.

[Amras Seer]

Belkar would be better, xykon wouldn't crush belkar's resistance, he would use it as a party club.

[Saph]

He'll do as well as the plot requires him to. :P

Seriously, if I had to guess, I'd say he'd be okay, as being trustworthy is a lot more important than being a skilled tactician (you can delegate tactics, you can't delegate your own alignment).

But it's not like they can do much against an epic level spellcaster whose army outnumbers them ten to one, anyway.

- Saph

[Remirach]

But it's not like they can do much against an epic level spellcaster whose army outnumbers them ten to one, anyway.

Ah, but they don't have to defeat Xykon or rout his army to achieve their ends -- what the insurgency can hope to do is make the occupation so expensive in terms of resources that it's no longer desirable to maintain.

And Xykon didn't want to stay put in the first place. Redcloak hoped to find more information on the other Gates, but it hasn't been written down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) and no one except Shojo and Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) (plus Nale, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) ominously enough) knows anything. So they've been bleeding troops for weeks now with nothing to show for it. I'd expect the lich to be livid by now, and with the Resistance unified it's only going to get worse.

[Saph]

I guess, but to be honest, I think the only reason they're still alive is because Xykon can't be bothered to deal with them.

Or possibly he could find and kill them, but just doesn't care, and finds it amusing to watch hobgoblins and humans killing each other, which is probably more likely.

- Saph

[warmachine]

If Haley is to be believed, Thanh doesn't have the deceitfulness to be a resistance leader. Niu will help but a few levels of rogue probably don't make her a good strategist. Rather, the recently merged resistance leaders are good strategists or they wouldn't have survived this long. But they aren't fond of each other and have their own ideas.

This is where Thanh comes in: he's got charisma, good at diplomacy and everyone knows he's committed to the cause. Whatever thinking is needed that he can't do, he can convince his quarraling subordinates to work together, hammer a plan and stick to it. Whenever he needs to put his foot down for the needs of the resistance, no one will think his ego's out of control. Whenever troop morale is flagging, he can keep it up.

In short, he won't be a good leader as such, rather a good chairman and figurehead.