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esoteric scribe
2008-03-01, 09:37 PM
Am I correct in understanding a 15th level Fighter with TWF, ITWF & GTWF has the following base attack bonuses on a full attack without adding anything else:

Main Hand: +13/+10/+5
Off Hand: +13/+5/-5

Dalantia
2008-03-01, 09:42 PM
15th level fighter would be, factoring in dual wielding penalty...

Main: +13/+8/+3
Off: +13/+8/+3

This assumes Improved and Greater, and no stat bonuses.

martyboy74
2008-03-01, 09:44 PM
Dalantia is assuming that your off-hand weapon is light, of course.

Just so you know, these sort of simple question belong in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66326)thread.

John Campbell
2008-03-02, 12:18 AM
Also, your Base Attack Bonus is still +15. If you're two-weapon fighting and your off-hand weapon is light, your Attack Bonuses (no "Base"), figuring in the TWF penalties but not any other bonuses or penalties, are what Dalantia says.

It's a subtle distinction, but important... there are some effects, like Power Attack, that are limited by your Base Attack Bonus.

Talic
2008-03-02, 12:23 AM
Also, your Base Attack Bonus is still +15. If you're two-weapon fighting and your off-hand weapon is light, your Attack Bonuses (no "Base"), figuring in the TWF penalties but not any other bonuses or penalties, are what Dalantia says.

It's a subtle distinction, but important... there are some effects, like Power Attack, that are limited by your Base Attack Bonus.

But TWF should generally not be using power attack, as the light weapon won't reap the benefit of it, but will still incur the penalty.

Wraithy
2008-03-02, 09:32 AM
But TWF should generally not be using power attack, as the light weapon won't reap the benefit of it, but will still incur the penalty.

Funny you should say that, I'm playing a TWF rogue5/fighter2 with oversized two weapon fighting and improved sunder.
It has yet to be played, but as far as I can see it looks good, and even if it does end up sucking in combat (which I doupt it will) the pure coolness of using two adamantine longswords seems a fair price to pay.

John Campbell
2008-03-02, 11:49 AM
But TWF should generally not be using power attack, as the light weapon won't reap the benefit of it, but will still incur the penalty.

There are ways to get around that. Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, as Wraithy says, will let you fight with two Power-Attackable weapons with only the -2 penalty. Also, unarmed strikes count as a light weapon, but allow Power Attack. It's even possible, I determined after much discussion here, to two-weapon a two-handed weapon and an unarmed strike, which should provide 3x Power Attack - the unarmed strike does not have to be a punch, does not require a free hand.

(Improved Unarmed Strike, I'm discovering, doesn't suck anywhere near as much as I thought it did when I took it.)

But, yes, generally, you're right. Power Attack isn't the only effect limited by BAB, though.

MorkaisChosen
2008-03-02, 12:09 PM
The most obvious other BAB-restricted ability for a TWF character is Combat Expertise- it can help overcome the lower AC from a lack of shields.

John Campbell
2008-03-02, 05:40 PM
Combat Expertise is somewhat arbitrarily limited to 5. Improved Combat Expertise is BAB-limited, though.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-02, 07:14 PM
The most obvious other BAB-restricted ability for a TWF character is Combat Expertise- it can help overcome the lower AC from a lack of shields.
Generally, the lower AC from a lack of shields isn't important, due to the little issue that two-handed weapon users have the same issue.... and generally surmount it by getting an Animated Shield.

Core, there are basically two routes to make Two Weapon Fighting not mechanically inferior to two-handed-weapon fighting:
1) Get lots of extra damage bonuses (Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, Flaming/Frost/Shock/Holy/whatever) that apply on both weapons. Such things favor lots of smaller base damage hits over fewer larger base damage hits.
2) Use one of a small handful of (core) tricks such that you're using a two-handed weapon and a weapon that doesn't use up the hand for your "off hand attack" (Armor Spikes or Unarmed Strike).

Even then, though, you've got a few issues:
1) Target DR matters more, as it applies twice as often.
2) You're burning a lot of feats to keep it up, whereas everyone else doesn't need to.
3) You've generally got a larger weapon expense (although you can avoid this while still making the shots equally well as the two-hander).