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Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 02:01 AM
I'm planning on running the following encounter in my next adventure:

Carmot’s Home
It has been a long, annoying journey since you retrieved the Count’s son, but at least you were able to return home for some rest and relaxation. You unlock the door with your key with an audible click, then enter the house. As you step in, however, you stop short. A man garbed in black leather armor, dangling a kukri from one finger, eyes you from your chair; he seems to have been waiting for you. He speaks in a strange, rolling voice. “I see you have returned at long last. The shadows have been waiting for you. Now, tell me: where is Carmot’s work? Where is the blood-red gem he made? Tell me, and you will not be tortured.”

The characters have a short while to talk with this man (a shadowdancer named Aran); he won’t answer their questions about who he is, who sent him, or why he needs it, and if they ask too many questions (or the wrong ones) he may guess they have other knowledge as well. Eventually, he’ll tire of talking, rise to his feet, and say “Enough” and the shadows will seem to collect around him and he’ll vanish. At this point his companion, an assassin named Jered, will have completed his study of Isendil and will drop down from the second floor and attempt to make a death attack against him. If the characters attack Aran, the shadowdancer on the chair, before three rounds are up, then the assassin will continue his study until it is complete, then join the fray.
It is possible for the characters to spot the other two characters; it is DC 36 to spot Jered hiding on the landing above them, and DC 24 to spot Aran’s shadow. If the characters spot Jered and announce it or otherwise indicate it, then Jered’s concentration will be interrupted and the both of them will immediately hide in plain sight, then attack (though in this case, this will be in the first round of combat, so the characters may win initiative and go first).
The two are both shadowdancers and will constantly flicker in and out of the shadows in order to attack the characters; typically they will make a sneak attack, revealing themselves, then hide, moving slightly or even moving away from the characters in order to confuse them as to their locations. If the fight looks like it is going badly and they can’t win, the two will flee; Aran may make an illusion of shadows as a distraction while they flee.
If the bodies are examined, both are carrying a piece of paper with Isendil and Kadrin’s names on it, their pictures, and instructions in thieves’ cant to kill them both. The writing is quite elegant, and the art of Isendil and Kadrin is fairly high quality. There is no signature on the paper.

Aran – CR 10; Medium humanoid; Human Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 3; Neutral Evil; HD 7d6+3d8+20; 58 hp; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 21 (22 vs one foe), touch 15 (16 vs one foe), flat-footed 17; Base atk +7/+2, Grp +8; Atk Kukri +13 melee (18-20/1d4+2); Full Attack Kukri +13/+8 melee (18-20/1d4+2); SA Shadow Illusion, Sneak Attack +4d6, summon shadow; SQ Darkvision, Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Trap Sense +2, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge; SV Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +3; Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): Can hide while being observed. If done after attacking, will count as a move action.
Shadow Illusion (Sp): Acts as per the spell silent image; usable 1/day.
Summon Shadow (Su): Aran is accompanied by a summoned shadow, see below.
Skills: Hide +22, Move Silently +22, Bluff +12, Gather Information +12, Intimidate +6, Perform (Dance) +12, Sleight of Hand +17; Tumble +17, Search +15, Spot +13, Listen +13
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (Kukri), Weapon Finesse
Equipment: Bracers of Dexterity +2, Buckler +1, Shadow Studded Leather Armor +1 (+5 to hide checks, total value 3500 gp), Ring of Deflection +1, Padded Boots (+5 to move silently, 2500 gp), Kukri +1, 400 gp

Aran’s Shadow – Undead 5; Lawful Evil; HD 5d12; 33 hp; Init +2; Spd Fly 40 ft. (good); AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 11; Base atk +2, Grp -; Atk Incorporeal touch +4 melee (1d6 Str); SA Create Spawn, Strength Damage; SQ Darkvision 60ft., incorporeal traits, +2 turn resistance, undead traits; SV Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5; Str -, Dex 15, Con -, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +10 (+14 in shadowy areas), Listen +8, Search +4, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Dodge.

Jered – CR 10; Small humanoid; Halfling Rogue 5/Assassin 4/Shadowdancer 1; Neutral Evil; HD 9d6+1d8+10; 46 hp; Init +5; Spd 20 ft.; AC 20 (21 vs one foe), touch 15 (16 vs one foe), flat-footed 16; Base atk +6/+1, Grp +2; Atk Dagger +14 melee (19-20/1d4+2); Full Attack Dagger +14/+9 melee (19-20/1d4+2); SA Death Attack, Poison Use, Sneak Attack +5d6, Spells; SQ Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, +2 Save vs Poison, Trap Sense +1, Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge; SV Fort +4, Ref +16, Will +3; Str 10, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Death Attack (Ex): After studying a victim for 3 rounds, Jered can make a death attack with the possibility of paralyzing or killing the victim if they fail a DC 16 Fort save. Paralysis lasts 1d6+4 rounds. Note that this attack only works if the target can be successfully sneak attacked.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): Can hide while being observed. If done after attacking, will count as a move action.
Skills: Hide +26, Move Silently +24, Bluff +6, Climb +8, Disguise +6, Jump +8, Perform (Dance) +6, Tumble +17, Search +15, Spot +13, Listen +15
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse
Equipment: Bracers of Dexterity +1, Buckler +1, Shadow Studded Leather Armor +1 (+5 to hide checks, total value 3500 gp), Padded Boots (+5 to move silently, 2500 gp), Dagger +2, 4 Daggers, 350 gp
Spells:
1st level (can cast 4/day): Disguise Self, Feather Fall, Sleep, True Strike
2nd level (can cast 2/day): Cat’s Grace, Darkness

After the battle, characters with Knowledge (Arcana) or Knowledge (local) may make a knowledge check:
DC 10: Shadowdancers are warriors who have supernatural power over shadows, allowing them to hide in plain sight and bend them to their own purposes.
DC 15: (Arcana) Shadowdancers draw their powers from the plane of shadow, but unlike shadowcasters do not do so in the same sort of magical manner; their association with dancing is perhaps what allows them to do so, but the mechanism is unknown. (Local) Some shadowdancers are rangers, guardians of the woods; others are assassins, who kill people for money or sometimes some unknown agenda.
DC 20: There are several organizations which employ shadowdancers; at least two separate groups exist in Quyai, another in the sylvan jungles, and another somewhere unknown. Only the first and last groups have assassins in their numbers; only the one of the groups in Quyai (the one without assassins) and the unknown one have shadowcasters, while the other in Quyai is pure muscle. The one in the jungle is mostly composed of elves, and mostly rangers and rogues at that.

My questions are regarding the interaction of hide in plain sight and sneak attack.

1) There aren't really rules for hiding in the middle of combat while fighting, despite the fact that HiPS is a core ability; at least, the rules do not appear to be in the PHB. What penalty would there be for someone to walk up to someone while hidden, stab them with their dagger, then HIPSing? Would they take a -20 penalty to their Hide check as per sniping?
2) Would they have to take a move action to hide, again as per sniping? I'm assuming yes, otherwise you could take a full attack then HIPS, which seems a bit silly.
3) If one character sees a hidden character, and another doesn't, if the character who sees the hidden person points them out to the other person, will they be able to see them (or at least re-roll their spot check)? And if one of the assassins decides to not attack in a round, do the characters get to make Spot checks against them every round?
4) Can the assassins HIPS as part of a move action and attack someone (rather than the opposite order) in a single round? I'm assuming again yes, and while they probably wouldn't do this (as the fighter in the party would probably shred them in a single round due to their relatively low AC, and they do have information on the characters) I wanted to know if it was an option.

Talic
2008-03-02, 02:41 AM
Your characters have their CR's off.

1st, PrC's add 1 to CR, making them CR11.

2nd, Elite array adds +1. Your 1st guy is on, at best, 28 point buy (assuming 16 dex, and stat boosts in it). Elite array is effectively 28 point buy.

Thus, your first guy is CR12.

Jered's roughly the same, on a best scenario of 27 point buy, and with PrC's, also. CR 12.

Luckily, the shadow won't count into CR any more than a paladin's mount does. Class ability, and all.

Tengu
2008-03-02, 03:57 AM
2nd, Elite array adds +1. Your 1st guy is on, at best, 28 point buy (assuming 16 dex, and stat boosts in it). Elite array is effectively 28 point buy.


Actually, it's 25 point buy.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-02, 04:59 AM
where do you get the idea that prestige classes add an additional +1 to the CR?
i have not noted that rules anywhere and would be interested in a page number if poss. i'd treat it as sniping, but of course there are plenty of ways to boost hide through magical armours cloaks etc

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 05:29 AM
Your characters have their CR's off.

1st, PrC's add 1 to CR, making them CR11.

To my knowledge, there's no rule that says so, and I honestly don't think there should be; CRs for character classes tend to be high anyway. A Fighter 15 is not a CR 15 encounter, regardless of what the CR guidelines say.


2nd, Elite array adds +1. Your 1st guy is on, at best, 28 point buy (assuming 16 dex, and stat boosts in it). Elite array is effectively 28 point buy.

Thus, your first guy is CR12.

Jered's roughly the same, on a best scenario of 27 point buy, and with PrC's, also. CR 12.

Luckily, the shadow won't count into CR any more than a paladin's mount does. Class ability, and all.

They aren't actually point buy; they're just elite array characters. Their stats look higher than that because A) they're 8th level (so have 2 +1s to their stats, which are distributed very differently; the halfling put both into his dex, where the human put one into his dex and one into his con) and B) I added the stat modifiers from their magical items to their stats.

And second, elite array doesn't add +1 to CR; creatures with PC levels are supposed to have the elite array, and indeed the monster manual specifically says so on page 294.


* Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array).

Not to mention, being NPCs (as opposed to monsters), their CR is, in theory, equal to their class level. In actuality I've found it varies considerably by build and such; these guys might actually be CR 10, as in they use up a fifth of a 10th level party's resources in a single encounter; a lot of NPCs, solo against a party, get overwhelmed very quickly and with little chance of doing anything useful. These guys are much harder to overwhelm with their hit and run tactics and very high hide checks, which was intentional given the players are quite smart and tactical and if I play the NPCs like idiots they'll die horrible deaths.

Anyway, I was more worried about the rules interpretations rather than the actual encounter itself; if the rules don't support the encounter it will be more of a problem than if the CRs are off.

Talic
2008-03-02, 06:16 AM
That still makes them CR 11 (+1 elite array).

The +1 for PrC's is for leadership.

Still, CR 10 is too low for this. CR 11 would put 2 at CR 13, I'd call it 14 for good measure. Especially since the situation is designed to give the NPC's an ambush situation.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 06:38 AM
I don't know why you're still debating the CR with me; that's not what I really cared about. I care more about my rules questions, as I'm thinking there will be a lot of shadowdancers in this adventure and I want to make sure I understand the rules for them.

UserClone
2008-03-02, 07:00 AM
From what I understand, HiPS merely gives you the ability to use the hide skill while being observed. In other words, you do not need a bluff check to distract, find cover, hide there, shoot, distract again, find cover, hide there, shoot, et al. You just make an opposed hide vs. spot. Now I wouldn't be against slapping some heavy penalties to hide checks if you are using this option, however. But it's up to you what those might be, both situationally and depending on the spot levels of your various party members.

Talic
2008-03-02, 07:07 AM
By the rules, if you're sniping, it's a -20. A halfling variant can drop it to -10, and a feat can drop it by 4 more.

If you just attack, and then declare hide because there's a shadow within 10 feet and you're a shadowdancer? No penalty. However, you do become visible just long enough to trigger readied actions.

Shadowdancer HiPS lets you hide while being observed, without cover or concealment, provided you can spit on a shadow.

lord_khaine
2008-03-02, 08:32 AM
relevant part from SRD


If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.


so HIPS allows you to hide even while being wached, but you will still take a -10 penalty to it.

as for sniping.


Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot

it seems it wont be possible for them, since they both have to be 10 feet away, and its only for a single ranget attack.

Curmudgeon
2008-03-02, 08:46 PM
1) There aren't really rules for hiding in the middle of combat while fighting, despite the fact that HiPS is a core ability; at least, the rules do not appear to be in the PHB. (Most of) the rules are in the PH; their organization is just odd. Here's what you've probably overlooked:
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking
What penalty would there be for someone to walk up to someone while hidden, stab them with their dagger, then HIPSing?
The piece that's not in the core rules is the Move between Cover use of Hide, which is in Complete Adventurer: this lets you move up to your Hide ranks in feet, without cover/concealment, and still stay hidden; the penalty is -1 per foot moved. So this rule would probably be what you'd use if moving less than 20' to the attack point because the Hide check penalty would be lower that way. Otherwise you'd apply a -20 penalty to Hide while attacking.

Would they take a -20 penalty to their Hide check as per sniping? If you wanted to be hidden after the attack also, as you would in this case, you'd take a -20 penalty to Hide while attacking. It's the same penalty, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Sniping.


2) Would they have to take a move action to hide, again as per sniping? No. As stated, Sniping is for missile attacks only. It doesn't apply at all in this case.
I'm assuming yes, otherwise you could take a full attack then HIPS, which seems a bit silly. You'd need to make a Hide check on each swing at a -20 penalty to get the benefits of being visually undetectable throughout the full attack; there's nothing at all silly about that. If you succeed on your Hide check on the last swing, you remain hidden after the attack.


3) If one character sees a hidden character, and another doesn't, if the character who sees the hidden person points them out to the other person, will they be able to see them (or at least re-roll their spot check)?
According to the rules, this requires a move action; they don't automatically get a new reactive Spot check just because an ally tells them to do so:
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

And if one of the assassins decides to not attack in a round, do the characters get to make Spot checks against them every round? As long as there's some new circumstance to react to, you get to make a Spot check as a free action. If the assassin moves, or you move, the circumstances for the opposed Hide and Spot checks are new. If nobody moves, then trying to Spot someone in the same circumstance requires a move action.
Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.


4) Can the assassins HIPS as part of a move action and attack someone (rather than the opposite order) in a single round? I'm assuming again yes, and while they probably wouldn't do this (as the fighter in the party would probably shred them in a single round due to their relatively low AC, and they do have information on the characters) I wanted to know if it was an option. You can always Hide as part of movement (any movement, including a 5' adjustment -- not just a move action), so the answer is yes.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 09:37 PM
Thanks a lot, that's what I wanted to know.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-03-02, 11:10 PM
notes for the potential DM...

area effects can and will ruin the day of a hiding character...if a PC decides to drop an aoe spell the circumstances can get quite interesting.

Do note that in small places like a house, players might have a very good idea where someone might be hiding and decide to start 'looking' the hard way.

Farie fire and light are not your friends...if PC's wise up...you could have a problem...same with detect evil or even detect magic (they have magic items...they blip even when hiding...since they will be hiding in plain sight most of the time, that means that they will not have cover from such magical sight.

Readied actions...someone is gonna ready an action to ruin your day..keep that in mind. A simple flask of oil will likely cause them no end of trouble since it will light them up for at least a round or two and every adventurer has at least one.

Do note their will saves...they are abominable...and no chance of a freedom of movement between the 3. Expect a savy party to charm, or even hold person or deep sleep...hell, any save or lose spell...most require a will or fort save...these guys have crap. Don't expect them to take too many hits. Depending on the party, and what they might be expecting, be sure to know that they probably will attack the first guy FAST...he should have some sort of means of getting away...I would suggest an illusion of him or another 'faceless nobody' to converse with the party while he hides and maintains concentration. Otherwise they will likely just kill him and question his corpse...

A point of note...if they have access to such magic as well, why bother talking to them...strike hard and fast, leave no warning, talk to their spirits when they are dead. As such, have the shadow cause a noise out back, and the other guy use an illusion to cause a noise out front...when they separate, the shadowdancer locks the front door while the assassin studies one of the others insideor going out back...they should have a bit of time. A scroll of summon monster III or IV might be good as a distraction. Attack PC's one at a time, sneak attacks, death atacks and poison...shade blindsides one while they deal with the summoned monsters and backs off into shadows...by the time they get back together, at least 1 or two of the party will be weakened and another 1 or 2 dropped due to paralytic poison or just plain killed...spellcasters and clerics first of course...the fighters they can handle. Against wizards and clerics, they might just be screwed unless they get the drop on them specifically. Just try not to go too far overkill...you want the PC's to have a chance...Might be neat if one of the enemies captures a party member and their partner is also captured by the party...exchanges are always fun.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 12:09 AM
notes for the potential DM...

area effects can and will ruin the day of a hiding character...if a PC decides to drop an aoe spell the circumstances can get quite interesting.

Do note that in small places like a house, players might have a very good idea where someone might be hiding and decide to start 'looking' the hard way.

I don't have a problem with either of those; if the mage is not paralyzed by the death attack, I expect him to drop a fireball directly on the fighter due to his very high fire resistance, and that's not a problem. That said, due to their (extremely high) reflex saves I'm not sure how effective a strategy that will be - the DC on the fireballs is in the low 20s, whereas their reflex saves are in the high teens AND they both have evasion.


Farie fire and light are not your friends...if PC's wise up...you could have a problem...same with detect evil or even detect magic (they have magic items...they blip even when hiding...since they will be hiding in plain sight most of the time, that means that they will not have cover from such magical sight.

This won't be a big problem, either; the mage is highly unlikely to have anything other than Detect Magic memorized though. I don't think it works quite the way you think it does though, because otherwise what would be the point of See Invisibility? I'm pretty sure if they're hidden you won't be able to localize their gear. But more importantly, IIRC, it takes like three rounds to localize where the magic is coming from, by which point they could easily move out of the zone of magic and he'd have to start all over again.


Readied actions...someone is gonna ready an action to ruin your day..keep that in mind. A simple flask of oil will likely cause them no end of trouble since it will light them up for at least a round or two and every adventurer has at least one.

Again, I don't mind at all. If they think of it, more power to them.


Do note their will saves...they are abominable...and no chance of a freedom of movement between the 3. Expect a savy party to charm, or even hold person or deep sleep...hell, any save or lose spell...most require a will or fort save...these guys have crap. Don't expect them to take too many hits. Depending on the party, and what they might be expecting, be sure to know that they probably will attack the first guy FAST...he should have some sort of means of getting away...I would suggest an illusion of him or another 'faceless nobody' to converse with the party while he hides and maintains concentration. Otherwise they will likely just kill him and question his corpse...

Oh, certainly. And if the mage (who will be the target of the death attack) makes it through the death attack, and does do something like that, who cares? The point is for them to be able to win through their wits, otherwise they might win eventually but will get torn up pretty badly.

And the guy sitting in the chair, I don't really care if they attack him straight off; he'll HIPS and has a pretty high initiative.


A point of note...if they have access to such magic as well, why bother talking to them...strike hard and fast, leave no warning, talk to their spirits when they are dead. As such, have the shadow cause a noise out back, and the other guy use an illusion to cause a noise out front...when they separate, the shadowdancer locks the front door while the assassin studies one of the others insideor going out back...they should have a bit of time. A scroll of summon monster III or IV might be good as a distraction. Attack PC's one at a time, sneak attacks, death atacks and poison...shade blindsides one while they deal with the summoned monsters and backs off into shadows...by the time they get back together, at least 1 or two of the party will be weakened and another 1 or 2 dropped due to paralytic poison or just plain killed...spellcasters and clerics first of course...the fighters they can handle. Against wizards and clerics, they might just be screwed unless they get the drop on them specifically. Just try not to go too far overkill...you want the PC's to have a chance...Might be neat if one of the enemies captures a party member and their partner is also captured by the party...exchanges are always fun.

They don't have Speak With Dead, and while they could potentially buy them, it is much cheaper for them to paralyze one party member and kill the others. And they will focus their attack on whichever PC is the most vulnerable who isn't already disabled, and will be merciless if they drop someone because they don't want them getting healed.