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Lord_Kimboat
2008-03-02, 04:09 AM
Hi everyone

I've followed these forums long enough to know that people here know a lot more than I do so I have a quick question for everyone.

I've got an Eberron game going, currently at 3rd level. I have a Warforged Artificer, a Human Incantor (specialist wizard), a Human Healer and the forth character wants to be a Warforged Crusader.

My question is, is this going to cause balance problems? Is the Crusader, with its stances & manoeuvres over balanced?

Kurald Galain
2008-03-02, 04:32 AM
Whether it's overpowered depends on what you compare it to. It is definitely stronger than the melee classes in the PHB, but would fit in well with a wizard and artificer.

However, the healer is one of the weakest classes in the entire game, on par with the NPC classes and the monk. Maybe you should suggest that he changes to a cleric.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 04:35 AM
Hi everyone

I've followed these forums long enough to know that people here know a lot more than I do so I have a quick question for everyone.

I've got an Eberron game going, currently at 3rd level. I have a Warforged Artificer, a Human Incantor (specialist wizard), a Human Healer and the forth character wants to be a Warforged Crusader.

My question is, is this going to cause balance problems? Is the Crusader, with its stances & manoeuvres over balanced?

The Healer is going to want to stab his eyes out, and the presence of the Crusader (who can heal to a certain extent while fighting).

However, Artificer is very strongly in the running for Most Powerful Class Ever, and Incantatrix is by far the most powerful prestige class (and for Wizards, too) that isn't the completely game-shattering Planar Shepherd.

So, no, it's not the Crusader that'll be a problem. It'll be the Artificer or the Incantator.

You should make a ruling as to whether the Warforged Crusader can heal himself, though. (The ruling should probably be "yes".)

Pironious
2008-03-02, 04:36 AM
The short answer is yes.

The long answer is more or less see above, but even then I'd class Crusader as more powerful than wizards and I don't want to talk about artificers.

Interesting note though, I thought warforged couldn't be affected by cure spells and required repair spells? If this is true, there goes most of Crusader's power.

EDIT: Right, half from cure. I'd be inclined to say "serves you right for playing a warforged" but I've had some bad warforged experiences.

Rad
2008-03-02, 04:41 AM
The fluff behind the healing capacities of a Crusader wuold definitely allow a warforged crusader to heal himself (or even a human crusader to heal a warforged IMHO). The healer is way, way behind the others... I would suggest to restat that character as a cloistered cleric.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-02, 04:44 AM
Or a spontaneous-healing Druid.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 04:49 AM
The short answer is yes.

The long answer is more or less see above, but even then I'd class Crusader as more powerful than wizards and I don't want to talk about artificers.
That's ridiculous; there's no way Crusaders are more powerful than wizards (or even overpowered--except at level 1, which they rule).


Interesting note though, I thought warforged couldn't be affected by cure spells and required repair spells? If this is true, there goes most of Crusader's power.
Crusader healing isn't necessarily positive energy.

Rad
2008-03-02, 04:57 AM
Crusader healing isn't necessarily positive energy.
Exactly. It is a morale boost (sic) that results in a recover of lost HP (remember that thing in the PHB about HP being a sort of "reserve of luck" of experienced PCs and the like rather than actual wounds?)

Pironious
2008-03-02, 05:35 AM
That's ridiculous; there's no way Crusaders are more powerful than wizards (or even overpowered--except at level 1, which they rule).

I dunno, the idea of being able to hold your ground for 3 days of solid fighting without taking a break seeming pretty powerful. Good fort and will saves to prevent easy ways to bypass its healing capabilities.

I refuse to touch ToB with a 10 foot pole when it comes to making characters, but I've seen nasty things I can do with that class simply with its class features. Add feats ontop of that...

Sure, it can't locate city bomb, but sure I could make one that was for all intensive purposes, impossible to kill with anything even close to a normal CR for something of its level. And not get any weaker as the day wore on.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 05:37 AM
I dunno, the idea of being able to hold your ground for 3 days of solid fighting without taking a break seeming pretty powerful. Good fort and will saves to prevent easy ways to bypass its healing capabilities.

I refuse to touch ToB with a 10 foot pole when it comes to making characters, but I've seen nasty things I can do with that class simply with its class features. Add feats ontop of that...
...and you still don't have an overpowered class.
Continuous fighting isn't actually that helpful or good. If it was, Warlocks wouldn't be mediocre.


Sure, it can't locate city bomb, but sure I could make one that was for all intensive purposes, impossible to kill with anything even close to a normal CR for something of its level. And not get any weaker as the day wore on.
Unlikely. Crusaders are great tanks, but they're not that great tanks. They certainly can't recover damage faster than a level-appropriate creature can pour it on.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-02, 05:51 AM
I dunno, the idea of being able to hold your ground for 3 days of solid fighting without taking a break seeming pretty powerful. Good fort and will saves to prevent easy ways to bypass its healing capabilities.

I refuse to touch ToB with a 10 foot pole when it comes to making characters, but I've seen nasty things I can do with that class simply with its class features. Add feats ontop of that...

Sure, it can't locate city bomb, but sure I could make one that was for all intensive purposes, impossible to kill with anything even close to a normal CR for something of its level. And not get any weaker as the day wore on.

None of the ToB classes are overpowered; they're all quite balanced, really. They don't have any earth-shatteringly strong abilities, let alone game-breaking ones. They have some nice, solid abilities and are nice, solid classes but there is nothing at all overpowered about them.

Crusaders are good, to be sure, but hardly overpowered; they're difficult to KILL, but being hard to kill and actually being overpowered are two entirely seperate things. It is fairly easy to make a character which is difficult to kill, but in general overpowering is when you can easily kill other stuff, not avoid being killed yourself.

Wizards are head and shoulders above any of the ToB classes, but the ToB classes don't feel completely useless with a wizard in the party.

Basically, don't worry about the crusader; you've already got two stronger classes in the party, the crusader won't be the one causing problems, but the player playing the crusader will, at least, feel useful.

Overlard
2008-03-02, 08:47 AM
Interesting note though, I thought warforged couldn't be affected by cure spells and required repair spells? If this is true, there goes most of Crusader's power.

EDIT: Right, half from cure. I'd be inclined to say "serves you right for playing a warforged" but I've had some bad warforged experiences.
You're half right - warforged only get half the benefit from spells of the the healing subschool, and the same with supernatural abilities that cure hp.

But the crusader's healing abilities count as neither of these - they're extraordinary, not supernatural. So the warforged gets full benefits of the crusader powers.

Starsinger
2008-03-02, 09:06 AM
I would also like to second the notion that the healer will be increasingly frustrated. Not only is Healer mediocre (and I actually prefer my healy types to be more like Final Fantasy white mages and less like 3.5 Clerics), but half the party are Warforged, who recieve half from healing.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-02, 09:09 AM
If the healer player wants to maintain the spontaneous casting, he could always go for Favored Soul and select healing spells as well as some other buffs. This would at least put him in some armor, give him some more versatility...

Still not as good a cleric... but hey, what is? :)

EvilElitest
2008-03-02, 09:10 AM
Crusaders are powerful, not overpowered however. You can't compare them to wizards, because wizards are truly batman.
from
EE

Riffington
2008-03-02, 10:57 AM
A low-level crusader will have his ass handed to him by a same-level barbarian. The massive extra damage the barbarian does more than overcomes the continuous tiny bits of healing the crusader gets.

Now, give the barbarian a bow, and the crusader becomes less useful than a monk.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 11:17 AM
And at high levels, the opposite happens.

Strike of Righteous vitality = HahaPWNED!

Seriously. At high levels, a crusader is extremely powerful, to the point only people who can cast something or use inordinately high save or dies (Or save or sucks. Hand of Doom, anyone?) and the like can stand to them. Oh, and uberchargers, but those are easily stopped.

serow
2008-03-02, 11:18 AM
I hope the Healer player will change his mind to maybe a Cleric, that'd be much better in the long term. He can still play a healer if he wants, just that he has the option of being kickass as well when he feels like.

Other than that, Crusaders ain't got nothing much on Wizards and Artificers past level 7 (or was it 9) or so.

Riffington
2008-03-02, 11:24 AM
Right. So at low levels, Crusaders are almost as powerful as core melee classes, and at high levels, they're almost half as powerful as spellcasters.
I see absolutely no problem with this.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 11:27 AM
You nailed it, more or less. They're at the same power level as a Font of Inspirationed Factotum or cheesed psychic warrior/not-too-cheesed-Psion, which is a bit below swordsage and way below Wizards and artificiers.

Mad Wizard
2008-03-02, 11:58 AM
You nailed it, more or less. They're at the same power level as a Font of Inspirationed Factotum or cheesed psychic warrior/not-too-cheesed-Psion, which is a bit below swordsage and way below Wizards and artificiers.

Actually, I believe the common consensus is that the Crusader is slightly above the Swordsage (although only slightly).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 12:03 PM
Baffling defense, Balance in the sky, five chadow creeping ice enervation strike. Need I say more?

lord_khaine
2008-03-02, 12:07 PM
Right. So at low levels, Crusaders are almost as powerful as core melee classes, and at high levels, they're almost half as powerful as spellcasters.
I see absolutely no problem with this

actualy its a bit more powerfull than the core melee classes, that a core barbarian might be able to beat a crusader in pure damage output, does not mean that versasility of the crusader doesnt make it a better choice for the party as a whole.

streakster
2008-03-02, 12:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, did the Healer ask to play one out of ignorance or masochism?

Squash Monster
2008-03-02, 01:11 PM
There's a roughly accurate set of tiers for how powerful classes are:

Full Casters > Full Manifesters > Tome of Battle > Half Casters > Swift Hunter, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, ect. > Monk, Samurai, Paladin, ect.

Your Artificer and Wizard are in the Full Caster tier, your Healer is probably somewhere near the bottom of Half Casters, and your Crusader is of course in Tome of Battle.

For reference, the most powerful classes in the game:
1) Artificer
2) Druid
3) Archivist
4) Cleric
5) Wizard
(Where Druid fits is somewhat disputed: some think DMM makes Cleric better. I'm not one of those people.)


So, for your answer: your Crusader is actually quite underpowered compared to your party. Your Artificer will eventually be able to make an item that can replace him. Your Wizard can end most fights in a single spell. And your Healer is... not very good.

I'd recommend you get your Healer to switch to Archivist. The Healer's best feature is that they get Heal as a level 5 spell, but Archivist can do that too. Additionally, Archivist can cast what I believe is the best healing spell: Mass Lesser Vigor, off the Druid list. With a dip into Sacred Exorcist to get access to DMM cheese, the Archivist has access to Persistant Mass Lesser Vigor, which, if he casts it at the start of the day and spends the rest of the day sleeping, will still do a great job of party healing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-02, 01:22 PM
Healer is roughly equivalent to adept. Rogue is a half-caster, or even ToB level power. Not as useful in combat, but good outside of it, even with knock being core. Beguiler and sorcerer are in the full manifester zone, not full caster, and warlock is about ToB.

Druid is better than cleric in core, I still say better out of core because you don't have to do any work to break them. Cleric takes cheese, druid is cheese.

EvilElitest
2008-03-02, 01:29 PM
Just out of curiosity, did the Healer ask to play one out of ignorance or masochism?

Its not that painful, if you shut your eyes and pretend that your having fun, it is quite nice
from
EE

Nerd-o-rama
2008-03-02, 02:44 PM
Summary of this thread: the Wizard, Artificer, and Crusader are on similar power tiers and should work well together. It's the underpowered Healer you need to worry about.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 03:22 PM
Summary of this thread: the Wizard, Artificer, and Crusader are on similar power tiers and should work well together. It's the underpowered Healer you need to worry about.

What? No, the Wizard and Artificer are two tiers above the Crusader.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 03:28 PM
Yes, but a crusader will still hand any non ToB, non fullcaster foe it's ass.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 03:30 PM
Yes, but a crusader will still hand any non ToB, non fullcaster foe it's ass.

No, it won't.
That is to say, there are plenty of both PC-class characters and level-appropriate monsters that won't have their ass handed to them.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 03:33 PM
Yeah. Factotum, Ubercharger, Solar, Balor, Pit fiend. And swordsage can deal with AT LEAST the Factotum and Ubercharger. Oh, and gishes, but that's more or less a fullcaster.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-02, 03:54 PM
Yeah. Factotum, Ubercharger, Solar, Balor, Pit fiend. And swordsage can deal with AT LEAST the Factotum and Ubercharger. Oh, and gishes, but that's more or less a fullcaster.

Fighter, Psychic Warrior, straight-up Barbarian, and more, and *plenty* of monsters. Seriously, the Crusader is good, but it's not that good. It's an effective class, not a tiny god.

Squash Monster
2008-03-02, 03:56 PM
No, it won't.
That is to say, there are plenty of both PC-class characters and level-appropriate monsters that won't have their ass handed to them.That is true. There are exceptions to that tier list, though much fewer than a lot of people will have you think.

One major exception is Fighter. Archer and bullrush builds can be as good as Tome of Battle characters, and the lockdown Fighter is a major threat even to full casters (Cleric and some Artificers, especially, but Wizards and Druids are mostly immune). Similarly, Frenzied Berserker is Tome of Battle-ish in power.

Monsters are all over the place on the power scale: some will eat the Crusader for breakfast. But those will almost always eat everybody on a lower tier for breakfast too. Monsters are designed under the assumption that you'll have access to level-appropriate spells: some of them are completely unbeatable without a little help from a caster (or lots of magic items).


Healer is roughly equivalent to adept. Rogue is a half-caster, or even ToB level power. Not as useful in combat, but good outside of it, even with knock being core. Beguiler and sorcerer are in the full manifester zone, not full caster, and warlock is about ToB.

Druid is better than cleric in core, I still say better out of core because you don't have to do any work to break them. Cleric takes cheese, druid is cheese.Healer is way more powerful than Adept, I don't know where you got that idea. Adept only gets 5th level spells, and even if the Adept list is shockingly good, the Healer will be way ahead at all levels.

Rogue is nowhere near that powerful. The rogue's mythic out-of-combat usefulness is just that, a myth. Spells that emulate Rogue features are not the problem: it's spells that let you ignore Rogue features entirely. Doors can be opened by force or burrowing summon, traps can be found via swarm of summoned monkeys, difficult terrain can be traversed via flight, and by the time teleportation spells show up, the rogue is completely useless. Further, the Tome of Battle classes are no slouches outside of combat: my party's Swordsage overcomes most roguish obstacles with his insane Jump check, while the Crusader can completely ignore locked doors with Mountain Hammer.

Just because Beguiler and Sorcerer are low on the full caster list, doesn't mean they're not there. I really doubt a good Psion could out-perform a good Sorcerer, simply because so much more material has been published that the Sorcerer can use.

While I agree that Druid is better than Cleric, the issue is pretty complicated, and shouldn't be trivialized. Additionally, the line between Druid and Archivist is much harder to figure out. Archivist can get DMM cheese pretty easily, and their ability to exploit it is insane.

Chronos
2008-03-02, 03:57 PM
For reference, the most powerful classes in the game:
1) Artificer
2) Druid
3) Archivist
4) Cleric
5) Wizard
(Where Druid fits is somewhat disputed: some think DMM makes Cleric better. I'm not one of those people.)There will be some dispute over the ordering of those five classes specifically, and there's a slight difference between "most powerful" and "most broken" (I would call the druid most broken, but the wizard is more powerful). But yes, those five are almost certainly above everything else.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 04:04 PM
Fighter, Psychic Warrior, straight-up Barbarian, and more, and *plenty* of monsters. Seriously, the Crusader is good, but it's not that good. It's an effective class, not a tiny god.


One of them's a halfcaster, the other one is THE ubercharger, and the last one will lose if the crusader outlasts 'im. And guess what? He does, since he's stuck with no more rage after it wears out. It's on a VERY high level of power, below fullcasters and little else (Like the psychic warrior, which is more or less it's equal).

Kioran
2008-03-02, 04:10 PM
You do hate your Healbots now, do you? If the Healer sucks so much, then mainly because it isnīt supported. If you add things like the Vigor spells, Invest protection, or, depending on your splatbookness, revivify to itīs list, itīs very good at what it does. Perhaps the Repair spells. Maybe most of you donīt want the job, but why punish and belittle someone who actually doesnīt want to play Batman?
Might as well give the guy chainmail while heīs there.

*headshake*

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 04:30 PM
Fighter, Psychic Warrior, straight-up Barbarian, and more, and *plenty* of monsters. Seriously, the Crusader is good, but it's not that good. It's an effective class, not a tiny god.

One of them's a halfcaster, the other one is THE ubercharger, and the last one will lose if the crusader outlasts 'im. And guess what? He does, since he's stuck with no more rage after it wears out. It's on a VERY high level of power, below fullcasters and little else (Like the psychic warrior, which is more or less it's equal).

kjones
2008-03-02, 04:57 PM
Being a healbot can be fun (my brother enjoys playing them), but why play a character who can only heal, when you have the option to play a character who can heal when the party needs it, and can also buff, scry, fight... (that is to say, a normal cleric.) It's easily possible to make a cleric who's a better healbot than a Healer, and you'll have something to do when nobody needs healing. Why wouldn't you want more options as a player?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-02, 05:00 PM
You have several different girlfriends/boyfriends playing with you in a single game and don't want to overshadow them?

The_Snark
2008-03-02, 05:19 PM
Actually, for quite a while I was under the impression that the Healer ran on the same system that the beguiler and dread necromancer did(knowing all spells on its list and casting spontaneously), and that in that case it could be a reasonable buffer and healer; not a great class by any means, but passable for a player who wasn't interested in doing any of the fighting personally.

I was kinda surprised when I went back and looked at it and saw that it prepares spells—not only that, it can't even spontaneously cast healing spells like a cleric does. It really should work like the beguiler/dread necromancer.

But on the original topic: the crusader is not overpowered when compared with reasonably optimized characters. When none of the players are optimizing, however, the crusader (and the other Tome of Battle classes, come to think) will probably end up being more powerful than the others. It really depends on your players.

Squash Monster
2008-03-02, 06:02 PM
There will be some dispute over the ordering of those five classes specifically, and there's a slight difference between "most powerful" and "most broken" (I would call the druid most broken, but the wizard is more powerful). But yes, those five are almost certainly above everything else.I wouldn't view any of those classes as broken. Broken is "doesn't work" not "way too good" or "unfair" (there is, of course, such a thing as being so good that it doesn't work: like Planar Shepherd).

I think the real dispute would be the difference between power in a duel vs overall power. Ignoring Artificer, Wizard is easily the best in a duel, but Druid is better in day to day use. The thing is: everything the Wizard can do, the Druid can too. Sure, the Wizard is better at it, but both of them are more than good enough in most situations, so the difference usually doesn't matter. And the Druid gets Wildshape and Animal Companion, which do a bunch of things the Wizard can't.

Artificer is still the king though: who else gets to cast split empowered maximized twin scorching ray? The Wizard. Who else gets to persist Divine Power and Righteous Might? The Cleric and the Archivist. Who else gets to do both? Nobody.

Lord_Kimboat
2008-03-03, 02:45 AM
My thanks to all that have posted.

To answer a few questions that came up - for one, I don't know why the healer chose to be one. The player is eager but often plays odd ball, low powered characters, I *think* because he doesn't think he can or doesn't want to try to keep up with the builders in the group.

Yeah, the artificer and the wannabe Incantor are the ones I'm watching (especially the incantor - he's a bit of a munchkin and may suffer from character loss shortly - while I still can).

The player who plays the Crusader sometimes comes up with major cheese, that is why I asked the question.

Okay, as I said, thanks to everyone. My next question is - what do I throw these guys against? You've pretty much answered my question that three of the four are higher powered than standard, core classes - and I think most people agree with that. Hell, I agreed with that when the Crusader hit something for 34 points of damage!

So, what do I hit them with to make it fair?

Kizara
2008-03-03, 03:16 AM
My thanks to all that have posted.

To answer a few questions that came up - for one, I don't know why the healer chose to be one. The player is eager but often plays odd ball, low powered characters, I *think* because he doesn't think he can or doesn't want to try to keep up with the builders in the group.

Yeah, the artificer and the wannabe Incantor are the ones I'm watching (especially the incantor - he's a bit of a munchkin and may suffer from character loss shortly - while I still can).

The player who plays the Crusader sometimes comes up with major cheese, that is why I asked the question.

Okay, as I said, thanks to everyone. My next question is - what do I throw these guys against? You've pretty much answered my question that three of the four are higher powered than standard, core classes - and I think most people agree with that. Hell, I agreed with that when the Crusader hit something for 34 points of damage!

So, what do I hit them with to make it fair?

A rival adventuring party of 4 druids. (all of which have natural spell)

1) Has a fleshraker animal companion and focuses on buffing/augmenting such. He also wildshapes into a fleshraker. (in MM3)

2) Uses Augment Summoning to bring in as much stuff as he can, possibly opening up with Entangle to give him some room. Has a brown bear companion.

3) Focuses on AoE disable spells, debuffs and general casting. Wildshapes into an eagle and has a dire hawk animal companion.

4) Focuses on healing and support of the other 4. Wildshapes into a cheetah or eagle (your choice), and spends his actions healing the companions or the other druid's themselves.

That oughta make a point.

Bassetking
2008-03-03, 03:25 AM
The player who plays the Crusader sometimes comes up with major cheese, that is why I asked the question.

Ok, in order to prevent potential... misunderstandings between you and your Crusader player. I would, if I were you, Disallow him from the use of the feat "Imbued Healing: Luck" from "Complete Champion". Denying him that feat prevents the only really overwhelmingly shattered build for a Crusader from being actualized.



Okay, as I said, thanks to everyone. My next question is - what do I throw these guys against? You've pretty much answered my question that three of the four are higher powered than standard, core classes - and I think most people agree with that. Hell, I agreed with that when the Crusader hit something for 34 points of damage!

So, what do I hit them with to make it fair?

Constructs and Undead. At the same time. Or, more accurately, mixed groups of enemies that do not share weaknesses.

Kizara
2008-03-03, 03:26 AM
Constructs and Undead. At the same time. Or, more accurately, mixed groups of enemies that do not share weaknesses.

Bah, my idea is considerably more ridiculous. Learn to internet maybe!! :)

JBento
2008-03-03, 06:03 AM
A small tidbit on the Warforged Crusader healing. Wizards has said (don't remember where - maybe even in the Eberron CS?) that a warforged paladin's lay on hands functions fully on a warforged. I see no reason why a warforged crusader's abilities wouldn't work the same way

Frosty
2008-03-03, 02:23 PM
What does Imbued Healing: Luck do exactly?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-03, 02:53 PM
Imbued healing:Luck means a minimum-damage roll is treated as a max-damage roll for a number of minutes equal to the level of the spell used. There is a crusader stance that means maximum damage rolls cascade. (If you roll max damage, you get to roll again and add the 2, and if that is maxed, roll again.) A 1d2 weapon auto-cascades dealing infinite damage, when you combine the 2.

Squash Monster
2008-03-03, 04:13 PM
What does Imbued Healing: Luck do exactly?When you cast a cure spell, you get the following for one hour per level of the spell you cast: every time you roll a 1, it is treated as a 2. Crusader has a stance (Aura of Chaos) that lets them roll again every time they roll max damage, totaling the result until they don't roll max damage.

If you have both going at once and hit someone with a 1d2 damage weapon, it creates an infinite damage loop.

However, there is a slightly cheesy way you can weasel out of it as a DM. The wording of Imbued Healing: Luck is "treat the result as a 2" and the wording of Aura of Chaos is "whenever you roll max damage". If you're overly technical, you can say that "treat as" and "roll" aren't the same thing, which breaks the combo. Personally, it's not the kind of ruling I like to make, but I think it's the best way to fix this one.

Riffington
2008-03-03, 04:15 PM
As you can see, it's not important to ban the feat in general. You can just rule the broken trick doesn't work, if someone is lame enough to try in a real game.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-03-03, 04:43 PM
However, there is a slightly cheesy way you can weasel out of it as a DM. The wording of Imbued Healing: Luck is "treat the result as a 2" and the wording of Aura of Chaos is "whenever you roll max damage". If you're overly technical, you can say that "treat as" and "roll" aren't the same thing, which breaks the combo. Personally, it's not the kind of ruling I like to make, but I think it's the best way to fix this one.
See "Empower Spell" and "Maximize Spell" as well as various deities' "Maximize Roll" ability for precedent.

SilverClawShift
2008-03-03, 05:29 PM
Being a healbot can be fun (my brother enjoys playing them), but why play a character who can only heal

Okay, I feel compelled to say something.

First, allow me to mention that this is in no way an attack on you, your playstyle, or your personal honor in any way.

But a healer can do more than heal. The class features themselves are all related to healing, obviously, and that does give them a very strong bias towards healing. But they ARE another body on the field of battle, and they can move around and take action the same as anyone else. They certainly can't fight, but not all fights are straight forward headbutting matches... they can provide flanks, board up windows, trigger traps, run distractions or bait...
And let's not forget that against the undead, the healer's can drop a positive energy bomb on their heads. Surrounded by zombies, and the healer pipes up with "Mass cure critical wounds"?

And outside of combat (which is a significant portion of our games, though not the same for everyone) they are a WIS-CHA based caster with Diplomacy and Sense Motive on their skill list.

Just sayin.

kjones
2008-03-03, 08:29 PM
But a healer can do more than heal. The class features themselves are all related to healing, obviously, and that does give them a very strong bias towards healing. But they ARE another body on the field of battle, and they can move around and take action the same as anyone else. They certainly can't fight, but not all fights are straight forward headbutting matches... they can provide flanks, board up windows, trigger traps, run distractions or bait...


This isn't meant as an affront to your honor, playing style, or physical appearance... but a 1st level NPC hireling can do all of these things. That doesn't make them fun.

More to the point, a cleric can do all these things too. So why play a healer, when you can play a cleric? Especially because a healer can't even spontaneously cast cure spells. A cleric with Healing domain, the Augmented Healing feat, Healing Touch from CChamp, etc., would be a better healer than a Healer, except he can do things besides heal.



And outside of combat (which is a significant portion of our games, though not the same for everyone) they are a WIS-CHA based caster with Diplomacy and Sense Motive on their skill list.

Just sayin.

Cleric has Diplomacy, Favored Soul has both. Play one instead, and, you know, have more fun.

EvilElitest
2008-03-03, 11:33 PM
Is crusader better than both Sword sage and War blade by the way?
from
EE

streakster
2008-03-03, 11:51 PM
Is crusader better than both Sword sage and War blade by the way?
from
EE

That all depends on what you want. The Swordsage focuses on knowing more maneuvers than the other two, and getting some unique schools. With Adaptive style, they always have the best maneuvers prepared to deal with any threat. Their main drawback is a slow recovery rate, and not being as physically tough as the other two. He can be thought of as Monk with Maneuvers.

The Warblade is stronger than the other two, but knows less than the swordsage and is less tough than the Crusader. Also, his recovery rate is much better - can refresh all his maneuvers in one round. Fighter with maneuvers.

The Crusader is tough to take down - better defense and healing than the other two. Has the best revovery method in the game - maneuvers continually randomly refresh. Unfortunately, this means that the Crusader has to focus on maneuvers that are always useful, rather than picking specific ones, as he has no idea what he'll have at any given time. Paladin with maneuvers.

I personally like Swordsages, simply for the cool schools. Shadow Hand school is quite nice and flavorful. Crusader is nice if you don't want to die, Warblade if you want to mess stuff up. As I said, all depends.

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 12:30 AM
Is crusader better than both Sword sage and War blade by the way?
from
EEWhen all of them are fully optimized, yes. And Swordsage is the weakest. They're all pretty close though.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 06:37 AM
I'll have to disagree. If anything, Swordsage is slightly stronger. For example, just look at the stances. At level 4/5, you gain use to baffling defense, which is more or less the equivalent of "unhittable by melee and ranged attacks". Then, there's the phoenix something stance, or the amazing Balance In the Sky. And while the maneuvers cause less damage, they tend to be more dangerous than what a crusader or warblade can come up with (Huh. So you can deal 100 extra damage? Well, I go invisible, paralyze you, and do a Coup De Grace. Sucka!).

Starbuck_II
2008-03-04, 08:04 AM
Actually, for quite a while I was under the impression that the Healer ran on the same system that the beguiler and dread necromancer did(knowing all spells on its list and casting spontaneously), and that in that case it could be a reasonable buffer and healer; not a great class by any means, but passable for a player who wasn't interested in doing any of the fighting personally.

I was kinda surprised when I went back and looked at it and saw that it prepares spells—not only that, it can't even spontaneously cast healing spells like a cleric does. It really should work like the beguiler/dread necromancer.

But on the original topic: the crusader is not overpowered when compared with reasonably optimized characters. When none of the players are optimizing, however, the crusader (and the other Tome of Battle classes, come to think) will probably end up being more powerful than the others. It really depends on your players.

Really, the Cleric is so great that a class that focuses on healing sucks that bad compared to them.

The healer needs 2 things to be decent: spontanous casting and not forced to heal people. Really that last one should b roleplay only: you shouldn't lose your class if you decide not to heal.

kjones
2008-03-04, 08:13 AM
People need to stop referring to Baffling Defense as game-breakingly overpowered. First of all, it's not a stance, it's a maneuver, a counter to be specific. That means that a swordsage can only use it once, and then has to spend a full-round action meditating to recover it. Second, using your Sense Motive check as AC is pretty good - but at level 4, when you can get it, your Sense Motive can't reasonably be higher than, say, +12 or so (Ranks, wisdom, synergy bonus from something) which is, on average, not much better than your AC should be at that level.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 08:19 AM
Yeah, so? Unhittable is still unhittable. Clearly, you donnae have event he slightest idea of how much you can pimp a skill check. I refer you to the "why are the archivist and artificer broken?" thread.

namo
2008-03-04, 08:29 AM
I'll have to disagree. If anything, Swordsage is slightly stronger. For example, just look at the stances. At level 4/5, you gain use to baffling defense, which is more or less the equivalent of "unhittable by melee and ranged attacks". Then, there's the phoenix something stance, or the amazing Balance In the Sky. And while the maneuvers cause less damage, they tend to be more dangerous than what a crusader or warblade can come up with (Huh. So you can deal 100 extra damage? Well, I go invisible, paralyze you, and do a Coup De Grace. Sucka!).

Balance on the Sky is replicated by a 50k gp item in the MIC (and you don't need to have one free hand). The save DC of the Creeping Enervation Strike is 19+Wis which is unlikely to be very high (a Swordsage should concentrate on Str or Dex first).

Swordsages have their niche, but I doubt they're more powerful than the others.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 08:54 AM
Sorry, but a Swordsage has 2 main stats: The attacking stat (STR or DEX) and WIS. Period. Even assuming that you put your 5 level up stat increases in the attacking stat, no swordsage would forget getting a +4 tome for WIS. Now, assuming you pump it up with a +4 tome and an item, you end with a +7 bonus to the DC. Now, assume you actually put level up points in WIS and get a +5 tome, it climbs up to +12. That makes a whoppin' DC of 31. For comparison purposes, a Tarrasque and a Balor have a will save of +20 and +19 respectively. They will fail their saves on a roll of 10 or lower, before factoring any item that increases DC's or temporary stat boosts. So, why the hell would you forsake such a powerful thing? Heck, with this same setup, you can use Hand of Death, a level FOUR maneuever, and have a 25% chance of paralyzing the enemy for up to three rounds, more or less an autowin. And meanwhile, a warblade is doing some damage, and a crusader is only starting a 20 round battle of attrition. And we all now from batman Wizards than save or suck/die is ALWAYS better than damage or attrition.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-03-04, 09:32 AM
Only because a Wizard's "Save or lose" spells have a chance greater than 25% of working, work for more than three rounds, do more than paralyze (Which, among other things, undead, plants, constructs, undead, and people with freedom of movement are immune to, if I recall correctly.) and he doesn't have to meditate a full round between each attempt, yes...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 09:41 AM
You realized the one with 25% chance is a maneuver of FIVE. LEVELS. LOWER. Right? And that I'm not even using items, which will make the Five Shadow creepin' etcetera a near surefire hit? Or that I can do it as much as I want? Or that I could use a higher level maneuver to stun enemies, or that I could give you negative levels, or...


'Nuff said.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 09:58 AM
Yeah, so? Unhittable is still unhittable. Clearly, you donnae have event he slightest idea of how much you can pimp a skill check. I refer you to the "why are the archivist and artificer broken?" thread.

You just won't be hit by one attack; at the rate of recovery it requires, meh. Warblades have +2 hp/HD AND +4 hp at first level; an opponent auto-missing once per combat is not all that awesome. Pimping out your skill check is all well and good, but there's plenty of other things you can be doing, and in the end offense is superior to defense anyway.

Its okay, but not exceptional; I can use Pearl of Black Doubt and probably get hit less by a lot of opponents, particularly ones with large numbers of weak attacks; baffling defense is only really good against opponents with a single strong attack.


Sorry, but a Swordsage has 2 main stats: The attacking stat (STR or DEX) and WIS. Period. Even assuming that you put your 5 level up stat increases in the attacking stat, no swordsage would forget getting a +4 tome for WIS. Now, assuming you pump it up with a +4 tome and an item, you end with a +7 bonus to the DC. Now, assume you actually put level up points in WIS and get a +5 tome, it climbs up to +12. That makes a whoppin' DC of 31. For comparison purposes, a Tarrasque and a Balor have a will save of +20 and +19 respectively. They will fail their saves on a roll of 10 or lower, before factoring any item that increases DC's or temporary stat boosts. So, why the hell would you forsake such a powerful thing? Heck, with this same setup, you can use Hand of Death, a level FOUR maneuever, and have a 25% chance of paralyzing the enemy for up to three rounds, more or less an autowin. And meanwhile, a warblade is doing some damage, and a crusader is only starting a 20 round battle of attrition. And we all now from batman Wizards than save or suck/die is ALWAYS better than damage or attrition.

You do realize that, RAW, it is impossible to purchase a +5 tome, right? The maximum GP limit for any item which is purchasable is 100,000 gp; a +5 tome is 137,500 gp. See page 137 of the DMG for details. Heck, RAW you can't even buy a +4 tome.

Basically, if you want to buy a Tome +5 RAW, you're going to have to convince one of your mage buddies to make it. Good luck, given they cost 25,500 experience to manufacture. Even a +4 tome is 20,300 xp.

And even after you do all of that, you could just use Feral Death Blow, which outright kills them if they don't save, does an extra 5d6 damage if they do save, and cues off of the superior Strength stat. It is also rather more consistant because, let's face it, you're never going to fail your jump check and some of the five-shadow creeping ice enervation abilities are not as good as others, AND they're flat-footed versus the attack, lowering their AC, AND you can be a warblade, which means it is much less annoying to get your maneuver back.

All of this is largely irrelevant though, because I don't think that you have any real good way to back up your assertions of which is stronger.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-03-04, 11:08 AM
Just realized he was stacking his +4 and +5 tomes, (Note it went from +7 wis modifier to +12- that's ten points of wisdom more.) Tomes don't work that way- they overlap, not stack. It's essentially the wish spell's "+1 to a stat" bonus effect in book form. (So in your example, you'd only end up with +10, as well as spending more gold than is practical or possible by RAW.)

In addition, why are you touting the brokennes of a fourth level maneuver "because you get it so early", then pumping it with Tomes/Wish, and using it on Balors and Tarrasques? (Nevermind the fact you'll get full attacked or swallowed if you fail.) If you're going to use that as a point, you have to use minimum-level builds to show it.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 11:23 AM
1) So you can't buy +10 weapons, robes of the Archmage, ect? And you really think that this is a good defense of why X is superior in real games?

2) 18+6+4=28=+9 modifier. 18+6+5+5=+12 modifier, he also said switch points from level up. He also apparently decided to switch up his starting attribute distribution, because earlier he had a 14 in wisdom and/or miss added.

3) Yes it's only a fourth level maneuver, yes it is much more likely to be saved against then a comparable Wizard spell. Yes it is worse:

2nd level Wizard spell: incapacitated for CL rounds.
4th level Swordsage: incapacitated for 4 rounds?
4th level Wizard: tun into a squirrel.

BadJuJu
2008-03-04, 12:06 PM
If the bases for your ability is a wizard can do it better, than its most likly an allright ability. Last I checked, Wizard is on the short list as best class in the game.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 01:32 PM
Okay, answer time:

Titanium: Feral is based off of fort, which is the highest save most of the time, and by a long shot. In the case of a Balor and Tarrasque, we're talking 12 points. Fat chance it'll work, righty?

Oh, and try buying a +5 enhanced weapon. It'll probably cost more than 100k, but nobody ever argues about that.

Mojotech: You didn't even realized the +7 was attained WITHOUT ALLOCATING THE POINTS YOU GET EVERY FOURTH LEVEL UP, don't you? IF We add those points, and up the tome to +5 to get an extra +1 bonus, it changes to +12. Perhaps, my friend, you should run ze maths before blabbing.

See, here's the math for the two totals:

16 at character creation, assuming WIS NOT as your primary stat, but an important secondary.
+6 from item.
+4 from tome.
substract 10, divide by 2 = EIGHT. It errs in my FAVOR!

Now, considering it the primary:

18 at creation.
+5 from level ups.
+6 from item.
+5 from tome.
substract 10, divide by 2 = TWELVE! Better fo' me!


Now, assume I'm using the any maneuver that hits Will. We'll assume the level is 4, to keep it in the middle.

14 + 8 = 22. The Balor/Tarrasque will save on a 3/2. Kinda meh, right? For the record, they have a 19 and 20 to will, respectively.

Now, let's see your 'mazin feral death blow, assumin an 18 in STR, all the level up boosts there, a +5 tome, you get it.

19 +12 = 31. Nice, right? NOT SO FAST, BUCKO! A balor has a 22 to fort, and a tarrasque autosaves it with a whoppin' 38.

Now, let's see a level 9 Will targeting maneuver:

19 + 12 = 31. Same deal than with the feral deathblow, right? Nope, a balor has a 19 to Will, and a Tarrasque a 20. So, they save on a 12 and 11, respectively.


See the reason now? While everyone else tries for a multitude of Fort strikes, one or two Will targetting, WIS based attacks will end it all.

Worira
2008-03-04, 02:41 PM
As opposed to Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, which is... a fort save. And doesn't paralyze. Or Hand of Death, which paralyzes. And is... a 5 points easier fort save.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 02:43 PM
If the bases for your ability is a wizard can do it better, than its most likly an allright ability. Last I checked, Wizard is on the short list as best class in the game.

I'm not saying it's epic fail because a Wizard can do it better I am saying that the specific statement:

"And we all now from batman Wizards than save or suck/die is ALWAYS better than damage or attrition."

Batman Wizards save or suck is better then damage. That doesn't mean that Swordsages save or suck is better then Warblades damage. It's a false comparison. Swordsages have worse save ors then Wizards and Warblades have better damage then anything in core. X>Y X>Z therefore Y>Z makes no sense.

I personally favor Swordsage, then Warblade then Crusader, that's because Swordsage has Invis, teleport, and cool crap like that. Warblade can shut things down.

All this talk about invincible Crusader tanks is silly. There ain't no aggro in D&D, it doesn't matter how amazing you are if the rest of the party isn't and so ends up dead all the time. Unless I'm missing the Maneuver:

Fixing stuff up (Su): Any time a Crusader strikes a dead ally with this strike, the character is raised from the dead without XP/level loss.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-04, 02:46 PM
All this talk about invincible Crusader tanks is silly. There ain't no aggro in D&D, it doesn't matter how amazing you are if the rest of the party isn't and so ends up dead all the time. Unless I'm missing the Maneuver:

Fixing stuff up (Su): Any time a Crusader strikes a dead ally with this strike, the character is raised from the dead without XP/level loss.

The Crusder can heal his friends while fighting.
You're also missing the stance "Thicket of Blades". Combine that with Improved Trip or Stand Still (for example) and suddenly getting away from the Crusader is hard.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 02:57 PM
the funny thing is, Wizards have the easiet time getting away unless you ready a standard action to disrupt Abrupt Jaunt or the like.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 02:59 PM
Or you play a swordy and use Mirror Pursuit.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 03:05 PM
The Crusder can heal his friends while fighting.
You're also missing the stance "Thicket of Blades". Combine that with Improved Trip or Stand Still (for example) and suddenly getting away from the Crusader is hard.

1) I know the Crusader can heal his friends for piddly amounts while fighting, but that doesn't overcome save-or disables, or anything that does decent AoE damage, or anything big that gets off a Full Attack.

2) I'm not missing Thicket of Blades, Thicket of Blades is awesome when your AoOs kill people, (and yes Stand Still is absolutely ridiculous because it pretty much guarantees that Colossal Dragons can't move away from you because you hit them too hard) But every credible threat falls into one of three categories.

Gigantic Monster that can eat your face, and if it weren't for weird **** like Stand Still wouldn't even notice your AoO because the damage is so piddly.

Ranged attackers with ways to stay at range.

Crazy Demons with Teleport at will and a hundred and half SLAs, also kickass melee damage.

Note that your Crusader is only even useful against the first category, and a Psychic Warrior using Expansion, a Spiked Chain, and Stand Still (and Martial Study to get Thicket of Blades if you use the no tumble interpretation) can do it better, because not only does he prevent anyone from reaching his allies, he does it to more people, and he prevents Big Stupid Brutes from making any attacks on anybody, and that's the best kind of tank.

Crusader tanks are meh, to say that they are better then a Warblade or Swordsage because they are invincible doesn't work. Sword Sages and Warblades actually synergize with a group, rather then trying to solo everything.

Meloku
2008-03-04, 03:06 PM
the funny thing is, Wizards have the easiet time getting away unless you ready a standard action to disrupt Abrupt Jaunt or the like.

Actually, it's an immediate action, so it doesn't make it any easier (can't be responded to, I believe).

Frosty
2008-03-04, 03:08 PM
Of course it can. You can ready an action to counterspell a Quickened Fireball with your own Fireball, can you not? Hence, you can ready a trip (and subsequent smack) to disrupt Abrupt Jaunt.

Meloku
2008-03-04, 03:11 PM
Bleargh, I just realized what's wrong with that statement.

However, new question - what do you force to retain the use of the extraordinary ability after you take the damage (is it interrupted (yay, concentration!)), or is it just that a foolish wizard with abrupt jaunt that lets themselves stay in range of a crusader (not AJing out of range when they first get into range) dies if they aren't prepared enough?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 03:14 PM
Chosen, I wouldn't say Strike of Righteous Vitality is piddly. Heal should not be laughed at.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 03:25 PM
Bleargh, I just realized what's wrong with that statement.

However, new question - what do you force to retain the use of the extraordinary ability after you take the damage (is it interrupted (yay, concentration!)), or is it just that a foolish wizard with abrupt jaunt that lets themselves stay in range of a crusader (not AJing out of range when they first get into range) dies if they aren't prepared enough?

The PHB2 is not very clear on whether those abilities are (ex) or SLAs. I rule them as SLAs since Wizards are strong enough already. And yes, a wizard that allows the Crusader to come within range should die.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 03:34 PM
ToB classes, other than having retarded fluff (Wolf Climbs the Mountain? seriously?), are pretty powerful. They can't match the single round damage output of uberchargers, and their abilities, while close to casting, aren't quite as powerful.

They also can't quicken their abilities- their best abilities tend to be standard actions that are combined with a melee attack; this puts a serious crimp on what they can do, compared to what a full caster can do from 200 feet away.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 03:37 PM
Yeah. There's a reason Raistlin is the true God of Wizards: Who else was a munchkin In fluff?

Eldritch_Ent
2008-03-04, 04:01 PM
Now, assuming you pump it up with a +4 tome and an item, you end with a +7 bonus to the DC. Now, assume you actually put level up points in WIS and get a +5 tome, it climbs up to +12.In fluff?

I did the math, it's just from this your math looked really shaky. =P You didn't mention anything about swapping your 14 wis to 18 wis here, so if you tucked it somewhere else I missed it. Looked like you were stacking the tomes from where I stood. =P

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 05:30 PM
For your Healer: although healing is, in and of itself suboptimal, the really egregious problem here is that the Cleric does everything the Healer does better. If dead-set on playing a healing character, you could play a Cleric that prestiges into Radiant Servant of Pelor and spend all your time healing. You accomplish exactly the same thing, but you're better at it.


The discussion of which Tome of Battle class is best tickles me. Let's have another one of those rankings. This one is the best spells you can cast.
1) Mobility
2) Battlefield control
3) Buff
4) Save or die
5) Save or suck
6) Direct damage
7) Healing
Make note that mobility spells are only that good at high levels, and spells that don't fall into a category like these are all over the place.

Why do I bring this up? Because most of the discussion about the best Tome of Battle class seems to hinge on how great the save or dies that the Swordsage has are. Compare this to Devoted Spirit, which has some beefy battlefield control maneuvers. Also note that battlefield control is higher on the list.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 05:56 PM
Oh, and try buying a +5 enhanced weapon. It'll probably cost more than 100k, but nobody ever argues about that.

RAW, a +5 weapon costs all of 50,300gp + whatever the base cost of the weapon is. Additionally, it doesn't take a nonexistant epic level NPC to manufacture. The fact that the tomes take over 20K xp to manufacture is probably part of the reason they aren't available; again, RAW, there's no one to make them as there are 0 epic characters randomly generated. To make a +5 tome as an NPC you've got to be at least level 26 to have that much xp to spare.

The other part of the reason is, of course, to prevent characters from achieving certain levels of optimization without DM fiat. If a character build requires DM fiat, it isn't generalized and I can't do it in any old random game playing by the RAW.

And, in any event, this is a dumb argument because it is simply wrong; a +5 weapon is more than affordable, RAW, being only half of the GP limit. You can even buy a +7 equivalent (which is 98,300k+base weapon cost), so you could buy a Lawful +5 Longsword in a Metropolis RAW.


19 +12 = 31. Nice, right? NOT SO FAST, BUCKO! A balor has a 22 to fort, and a tarrasque autosaves it with a whoppin' 38.

A 22 to fort is only 3 higher than its will save, so if you're going for a 9th level maneuver versus a 4th level one, its actually a bit less likely to save against the fort one.

Incidentally, it is well worth noting that Five Shadow Creeping Enervation Strike deals ability damage, something to which many things (such as, say, the Torrasque) are immune. Mind you, Feral Death Blow doesn't work against things which are immune to critical hits, but a lot of (perhaps most) things immune to critical hits are also immune to ability damage.

Not to mention, the Warblade doesn't HAVE 9th level will-targeting effects; FSCES is a Fort save, and notably, Warblades have access to at LEAST one 5th levell Will save (which, I might add, has DC cuing off strength) which denies the person hit an action in the next round. There is a 9th level reflex save Swordsage ability that Warblades don't have access to (Inferno Blast) but... its a Reflex save (I presume cuing off of wis).

Plus thanks to pumping strength you're more likely to hit in the first place, and deal more damage.

And incidentally:


14 + 8 = 22. The Balor/Tarrasque will save on a 3/2. Kinda meh, right? For the record, they have a 19 and 20 to will, respectively.

You do realize that with the +38 bonus, the Torrasque saves against both on a 2, right? 1 autofail, so there's absolutely no difference whatsoever there.

While it is true that Wizards are clearly better than the ToB classes, I don't think that's in dispute. But which of the ToB classes is the best is much more ambigious, and there isn't some obvious differentiator there.


See the reason now? While everyone else tries for a multitude of Fort strikes, one or two Will targetting, WIS based attacks will end it all.

Yes, Will saves tend to be the weakest monster saves (though this is generally offset by a lot of Will-saves being mind-affecting, a template ignorable by many creatures). But you seem to be under the misimpression that cuing off of Wisdom = will save. It doesn't necessarily follow.

Most of Setting Sun's abilities with saving throws are Reflex for half; likewise, Shadow Hand's abilities tend to allow Fort saves, such as Hand of Death. So this is not a distinguishing feature, given Diamond Mind, which DOES have lots of will saves, has its save DCs cue off of... strength.


The discussion of which Tome of Battle class is best tickles me. Let's have another one of those rankings. This one is the best spells you can cast.
1) Mobility
2) Battlefield control
3) Buff
4) Save or die
5) Save or suck
6) Direct damage
7) Healing
Make note that mobility spells are only that good at high levels, and spells that don't fall into a category like these are all over the place.

Why do I bring this up? Because most of the discussion about the best Tome of Battle class seems to hinge on how great the save or dies that the Swordsage has are. Compare this to Devoted Spirit, which has some beefy battlefield control maneuvers. Also note that battlefield control is higher on the list.

That list is wrong, but mostly because it is omitting the most important thing of all - extra actions, which is above even mobility.

We're discussing it because he brought it up, not because we think it is the most important. In terms of the new list:

0) Extra actions/Action Denial - White Raven has these, but in particular it has the absolutely outrageous White Raven Battle Tactics, which is every bit as good as it looks. +1 action for your side as frequent as every other turn if you really want is quite nasty. It is arguable that Diamond Mind has a few (denying an opponent actions is pretty similar to extra actions for your side, plus there's the ultimate, though that is arguably more of a damage thing than anything else), Tiger Claw has a few (Sudden Leap comes to mind, though this may fall under 1; it has a few standard actions which allow them to both move and attack (and probably flank), and they've got the +1 attack/weapon thing, though again, that's arguably damage), and Shadow Hand has some action deniers as well.
1) Mobility - Again, White Raven has this, but Tiger Claw has Sudden Spring (at level 1!), which is an amazing mobility booster and a bunch of its standard-action strikes allow you to move around; they're great at giving flanking bonuses and doing various other odd things, including making a full attack on something within jumping distance as a swift action. Shadow Hand likewise has abilities which fall into this category.
2) Battlefield Control - This is where the Crusader really has abilities (though it may be arguable that some of its self-healing abilities constitute extra actions because they attack + heal).

So really its something of a wash, as again, they all arguably have access to the best categories, and while not as good at it as wizards, they at least have access (though, to be fair, I think Crusaders lack mobility as an ability).

namo
2008-03-05, 03:35 AM
@Azerian: sorry we brought the bad news that the Enervation Strike is Fort-based. I agree it would be much better if it was Will-based. Still, I doubt it's really viable to make Wis your primary stat : how are you going to hit with your average BAB ? (I haven't played a high-level Swordsage, but it seems that way to me)

That said, I really like Swordsage for their mobility and their utility.

tyckspoon
2008-03-05, 03:42 AM
Still, I doubt it's really viable to make Wis your primary stat : how are you going to hit with your average BAB ? (I haven't played a high-level Swordsage, but it seems that way to me)



By not using Power Attack. 3/4 BAB works alright for a single attack (thus no iterative dropoff to worry about) that doesn't have to trade off to-hit bonuses to get a useful effect. A lot of Strikes happen to fit those circumstances really well, in what may just be one of the best choices a Wizards developer has ever made.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-05, 03:52 AM
By not using Power Attack. 3/4 BAB works alright for a single attack (thus no iterative dropoff to worry about) that doesn't have to trade off to-hit bonuses to get a useful effect. A lot of Strikes happen to fit those circumstances really well, in what may just be one of the best choices a Wizards developer has ever made.

Yeah, different styles work pretty well in different ways. The Tiger Claw ones reward you more for having multiple attacks/weapons, and thus help you out with full attacks: allowing you to make full attacks while charging, letting you use Sudden Leap to jump right next to someone and full attack them, ect. Conversely, other maneuver sets emphasize single, powerful attacks more.

Eldariel
2008-03-05, 02:12 PM
Don't forget the Intuitive Attack-feat (unfortunately Exatled, but it's still there); with it, you can key your attacks with simple weapons (such as unarmed strike or Dagger) off Wisdom, and since Swordsage gets Wisdom to AC, you can go for a decent Wisdom SAD Swordsage, which isn't all that bad with all the Wisdom-based Saving Throw-maneuvers available.