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View Full Version : Why is the Mystic Theurge considered weak? (Also, pointless spiel on dino-CRs)



Quorothorn
2008-03-03, 12:40 AM
Okay, keep in mind I'm comparatively a complete newbie at DnD.

I've gotten the impression that the Mystic Theurge PrC is considered weak. Why? Simultaneous advancement in both a divine AND arcane caster? Sure, it advances nothing else, but Sorcs get essentially nothing from their levels beyond spellcasting anyway and Clerics and Wizards get very little (better turning and a couple Bonus Feats, respectively); only Druids get extra class features, beyond full casting, regularly as they advance in level.

I mean, is Ultimate Magus considered weak too? It seems quite powerful too, and in a similar manner to Mystic Theurge (only two different arcane classes is probably more streamlined than a divine and an arcane). Warmage/Wizard and you can be both Batman and a mobile artillery piece, or Sorc/Wiz so that you can get reliable multi-casting of certain almost-always-useful spells (Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Disintegrate, Cloudkill, Fly, Magic Missile, the Hold/Dominate line, whatever) and devote all your precious Wiz spell slots to specialty spells (Dream, Dimensional Anchor, Simulacrum, Trap the Soul, whatever). My conclusion on both is that perhaps such a character would suffer from having to have really good scores in two different Mentals. But even so, both PrCs seem very powerful from my perspective (not game-breaking, but not weak). After all, a Paladin generally needs to have okay-to-good scores in every single Attribute. If someone could perhaps enlighten me on some weakness to Mystic Theurge I might have overlooked?


Now [BEWARE POSSIBLY POINTLESS AND CERTAINLY LONG BIT HERE], in the Monster Manual II, a Spinosaurus is stated as CR13, a Seismosaurus as CR12. A PC's CR is equal to their levels if they're in PC-classes, so a Fight16 Wood Elf would therefore be CR16. Well, I ran a combat between the Spino and the Seis and another between the Spino and the Wood Elf. The Seis decimated the Spino in four rounds, with around half of its own HPs remaining, and it wasn't truly going all-out. The only explanation for this I can see is that the Spino has better movement speed and a couple Special Abilities particularly worrying for PC-sized characters, all of which are completely useless against something the size of Seis.

The Wood Elf (Ariar) v. Spinosaurus also ended with Spino very dead, this time in 5 rounds. However, the Elf Fighter ended the bout with only 19 HP (less than 1/6 his full strength). It seems to me that this fight bears out my previous theory on why Spino has a higher CR: Ariar would have dispatched Spino in Round 3 if it wasn't for Improved Grab.

I didn't actually run Seis v. Ariar, but I suspect the result would be pretty close and could go either way, but it definitely favours Seis for its durability; Ariar can dish out 2d6+50 per strike with four attacks (to hit of +13/+8/+3/-2) per round against AC 11 (max 246 dmg if all hit; presuming no nat 1 on the first attack, min is 52; I figure the "average" would be something in the area of, off the top of my head, 100-170); Seis can dish out 10d10+22, with no chance of Ariar making the Ref save except on a nat 20 (and therefore he's better served with using AoO for some extra dmg in return, since the odds of him missing such an attack are about the same as making the save). Seis has 464 HP, Ariar 124. So Seis most likely kills Ariar in two rounds after closing if it leads off with Trample (which IMO actually makes sense for it), whereas Ariar only kills Seis in two rounds of melee if he gets incredibly lucky...or if he got in some nice hits with his +1 Distance composite longbow before closing. So it comes down to how far apart they start and how aggressively Seis reacts. Spino only beats Ariar if it gets the jump on him or gets lucky (in the fight I ran, they started 100 ft away, which in retrospect is a very, very bad starting point for Spino), as Spino's dmg potential is more in the 40-range with full attacks.

The end result of all this blabbing is that I'm not certain how well CRs are working here. Though when I ran a Fight2/Pal6/Cav6 Dwarf against a Spino it utterly demolished it in an entirely one-sided bout where Spino basically could do squat whilst Ward (the Dwarf) and his rhinocerous (it's a legal Paladin holy mount, seriously) mount Cagney merrily ripped into it. So this is probably at least partially a "Fighters suck at high levels without optimization-fu-which-I-currently-cannot-hope-to-wield" type of deal.

DementedFellow
2008-03-03, 12:49 AM
In order to attain MT, you need to have at least 3 levels in Wizard and 3 levels in whatever divine caster class.

So by the end of the first level of mystic theurge you'll have 3 Wiz/3 Clr/1 MT. Meaning a caster lever for arcane and divine 4th level. You'll still be at level 2 spells.

Meanwhile if you take straight wizard or straight cleric or druid, you would be at a caster level of 7. You're nerfing yourself with Mystic Theurge. And bookkeeping can be a nightmare.

EDIT: Somehow I forgot to mention that at level 7 you'll be casting 4th level spells. Don't know how I forgot that.

SoD
2008-03-03, 12:50 AM
Well, on the CR rating, it gives the CR as being for a party of four PCs that level. Therefore your Spino should've been up against four Wood Elves (typically expected to be a sneak, a meat, an arcane, and a divine).

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 12:52 AM
D&D 3.5 favors specialization over versatility. Mystic Theurge trades focus in favor of versatility.

SurlySeraph
2008-03-03, 12:53 AM
Short answer: The Mystic Theurge can cast lots of weak spells but very few strong ones.

Long answer: The earliest you can become a Mystic Theurge is Wizard 3/ Cleric 3. So, at 7th level, you'll be casting like a 4th-level wizard and a 4th-level cleric. This means that you get 2nd-level wizard spells and 2nd-level cleric spells. But a 7th-level wizard wizard or a 7th-level cleric will be casting 4th-level spells. In DnD, casting a few high-level spells is virtually always more powerful than casting many low-level spells, so the problem only gets worse as levels increase.

The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.

Nohwl
2008-03-03, 01:07 AM
mystic theurges are fun, but the only real use for them is if you are going to be fighting an army. you have almost no use for having that many spells a day.

Chronos
2008-03-03, 01:08 AM
The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.Or, of course, when your DM lets you get away with combining it with cheesy things like Precocious Apprentice or Ur-Priest. But that's not really a fair comparison.

DementedFellow
2008-03-03, 01:17 AM
A perk of Mystic Theurge is that you can have a wizard casting both arcane and divine spells, which is helpful when creating a golem. Golems are largely considered a waste of time and XP, but once you have amassed all you would need to make one you won't need to go around trying to find a divine caster to scribble down a scroll for you so you can make it move.

Also for some reason if you are a divine caster, you know all divine spells available to you. So if you do go MT, you may find yourself being bogged down by not only an extensive list, but even more lengthy when you take into metamagic spell preparation. It takes a lot of care to plan ahead.

Quorothorn
2008-03-03, 01:18 AM
In order to attain MT, you need to have at least 3 levels in Wizard and 3 levels in whatever divine caster class.

So by the end of the first level of mystic theurge you'll have 3 Wiz/3 Clr/1 MT. Meaning a caster lever for arcane and divine 4th level. You'll still be at level 2 spells.

Meanwhile if you take straight wizard or straight cleric or druid, you would be at a caster level of 7. You're nerfing yourself with Mystic Theurge. And bookkeeping can be a nightmare.


D&D 3.5 favors specialization over versatility. Mystic Theurge trades focus in favor of versatility.


Short answer: The Mystic Theurge can cast lots of weak spells but very few strong ones.

Long answer: The earliest you can become a Mystic Theurge is Wizard 3/ Cleric 3. So, at 7th level, you'll be casting like a 4th-level wizard and a 4th-level cleric. This means that you get 2nd-level wizard spells and 2nd-level cleric spells. But a 7th-level wizard wizard or a 7th-level cleric will be casting 4th-level spells. In DnD, casting a few high-level spells is virtually always more powerful than casting many low-level spells, so the problem only gets worse as levels increase.

The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.

I can see the point there, thanks you lot. I won't give up hope for the PrC, though: I have an idea for a character concept using it. The bookkeeping issue, however...ouch, particularly if you go Clr/Wiz instead of Clr/Sorc (fortunately this character would be the latter). :smallbiggrin:


Well, on the CR rating, it gives the CR as being for a party of four PCs that level. Therefore your Spino should've been up against four Wood Elves (typically expected to be a sneak, a meat, an arcane, and a divine).

A classic party of four should take down a CR of their average level with 20% resource loss. When two equal CRs meet, the premise is that there's a 50-50 shot on them taking each other down, correct? Well, that CR16 Elf came nastily close to dieing against a CR13 creature, and that was with the encounter parameters somewhat in its favour (Spino didn't actually get to attack in Round 1 due to being 20 ft too far away for a Charge); if there had been two Spinos, Ariar would have had no chance (how much do numbers add to CR?). Again, I'm guessing it's due to a. Fighters are comparatively weak when you hit the teens in levels and b. my optimization fu is lackluster.

Meanwhile, a CR12 monster (the Seis) utterly demolished a CR13 (the Spino). That particular experiment certainly showed why adult sauropods in that size range had no natural predators...just way too big...

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-03, 01:25 AM
I can see the point there, thanks you lot. I won't give up hope for the PrC, though: I have an idea for a character concept using it. The bookkeeping issue, however...ouch, particularly if you go Clr/Wiz instead of Clr/Sorc (fortunately this character would be the latter). :smallbiggrin:
Cleric/Sorcerer is even worse than Cleric/Wizard, since your arcane spellcasting is *another* whole level behind (and you know a VERY limited number of spells). Casting 2nd-level arcane spells at level 8 isn't very fun, I assure you. Surely a spellcasting-based cleric with the Magic domain could fit the same character concept?



A classic party of four should take down a CR of their average level with 20% resource loss. When two equal CRs meet, the premise is that there's a 50-50 shot on them taking each other down, correct? Well, that CR16 Elf came nastily close to dieing against a CR13 creature, and that was with the encounter parameters somewhat in its favour (Spino didn't actually get to attack in Round 1 due to being 20 ft too far away for a Charge); if there had been two Spinos, Ariar would have had no chance (how much do numbers add to CR?). Again, I'm guessing it's due to a. Fighters are comparatively weak when you hit the teens in levels and b. my optimization fu is lackluster.
The CR 16 elven Fighter is a Fighter, which is VERY problematic even against melee opponents in core (I could build a non-core Fighter 16 that devastates this thing in a couple of rounds).
Consider that a level 16 wizard, cleric, druid, etc could've gotten rid of this thing without expending even 20% of his resources.

Also consider that draining 20% of a *party's* resources isn't the same as draining 100% of the Fighter's resources. The Fighter is the "weak link" in the party. Think about what a simple spell like Glitterdust or Slow would have done to the dinosaur--parties synergize in ways single characters can't replicate.


Meanwhile, a CR12 monster (the Seis) utterly demolished a CR13 (the Spino). That particular experiment certainly showed why adult sauropods in that size range had no natural predators...just way too big...
Monster CR is in part assigned based on anti-PC ability. A monster that suddenly can't really use Grapple, Swallow Whole, and such effectively isn't going to be as effective as its CR says.

DementedFellow
2008-03-03, 01:26 AM
If you go Clr/Sorc, you're looking at 4 levels of Sorc instead of 3 of Wiz. So if you stop to take the prerequisite dip in cleric before moving on to MT, you will be missing out on a whole 3rd level magic spell list, which to a Sorcerer is a lot. Either way you are hurting your arcane caster, only though with Sorc, you're hurting him even more since he has a slower spell progression than wizard.

Talic
2008-03-03, 01:30 AM
The easiest way to really gauge the power level is at early levels for the PrC. Levels 7-10.

At level 7, you cast 2nd level spells in both arcane and divine.
At level 8 and 9, you get 3rd level spells for both.
At level 10, you have 4th.

Assuming you're smart, and took practiced spellcaster for each, you're at least caster level 10 by the end of this, even if you're only getting the spells of a level 7.

So let's compare.

At level 7, when the pure wizard gets Polymorph and Black Tenticles, you have Scorching Ray and Cure Medium Wounds. The level 7 Cleric has Death Ward and Freedom of Movement.

At level 8, the pure caster doesn't get a level upgrade, so now you're comparing your Fireball, Dispel Magic, and Cure Serious Wounds, to your opponent's above spells.

However, at level 9, your fullcaster companions get their boost to 5th level. Those third levels spells now must compete with Slay Living, Symbol of Sleep, Raise Dead, True Seeing, or Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Overland Flight, and Baleful Polymorph.

At level 10, in your defense, you're only one spell level behind, finally getting your 4th level magic.

The real question is, how many spells can you cast a round? Sure, having more gives you more options... But you have more waste every day, and less power in each cast. So overall, unless that versatility balances the power loss (it doesn't, if you're a good caster), you lose out in the long run.

Quorothorn
2008-03-03, 01:33 AM
Cleric/Sorcerer is even worse than Cleric/Wizard, since your arcane spellcasting is *another* whole level behind (and you know a VERY limited number of spells). Casting 2nd-level arcane spells at level 8 isn't very fun, I assure you. Surely a spellcasting-based cleric with the Magic domain could fit the same character concept?

I'll have to look into that, thanks.


The CR 16 elven Fighter is a Fighter, which is VERY problematic even against melee opponents in core (I could build a non-core Fighter 16 that devastates this thing in a couple of rounds).
Consider that a level 16 wizard, cleric, druid, etc could've gotten rid of this thing without expending even 20% of his resources.

Also consider that draining 20% of a *party's* resources isn't the same as draining 100% of the Fighter's resources. The Fighter is the "weak link" in the party. Think about what a simple spell like Glitterdust or Slow would have done to the dinosaur--parties synergize in ways single characters can't replicate.

Monster CR is in part assigned based on anti-PC ability. A monster that suddenly can't really use Grapple, Swallow Whole, and such effectively isn't going to be as effective as its CR says.

Those were the conclusions I eventually drew, yes. Of course, 10d10+22 damage in a huge radius is pretty nasty to a PC party too, but all of Spinosaurus' special attacks (which are also fairly threatening to PCs) are negated by the simple fact that Seismosaurus has one size category and 12HD on it.

DiscipleofBob
2008-03-03, 01:57 AM
Yes, a Mystic Theurge will be outclasses by a pure arcane caster and a pure divine caster, but really, that's not the point of the class.

If you're lacking a significant arcane AND divine role in the group, the Mystic Theurge shines, mainly because there's no one there to outshine it. You have your blaster, your controller, your buffer, and your healer all in one. Since a lot of pure casters lack class features anyway, the only thing you're missing are one or two spell levels and a lower caster level, the latter of which can be remedied with Practiced Spellcaster (if CL actually matters for the spells you're using that is.)

Admittedly, if you're going for cheese and breaking the game, those lost spell levels are going to hurt you too much for this class to be viable (unless you pull out all the obscure sourcebooks and find some strange way to combine divine and arcane spells into some combo cheeseburger.)

But if you're going for fun, and just want to figure out a way for your healer to get some spells off the arcane spell list too, or your wizard wants to be able to heal himself, or whatever, that's where you want your Mystic Theurge.

Talic
2008-03-03, 02:13 AM
Yes, a Mystic Theurge will be outclasses by a pure arcane caster and a pure divine caster, but really, that's not the point of the class.

If you're lacking a significant arcane AND divine role in the group, the Mystic Theurge shines, mainly because there's no one there to outshine it. You have your blaster, your controller, your buffer, and your healer all in one.

Not quite. You have the blaster, the sometimes-controller-if-they-don't-pass-my-DC's-that-are-10%-too-low, the buffer, OR healer. Pick one.

Simply put, no matter how many spells you have, you have 1 per round. If combat's 5 rounds, then you have, usually, at most, 5 spells.

Would you rather they be weak or strong? The point of the class is to be jack of all trades, competent at none.

Zincorium
2008-03-03, 02:17 AM
Alright, here's a good breakdown of the spell amounts for each, noting the discrepancy in ability scores that results from a dual-focus. Archivist would solve that last problem, but if you're in a non-core campaign you can surely find better than mystic theurge. Other stuff that may or may not apply (inherent bonuses) not included, admittedly. Anyway-

Single class wizard, level 16, 18 intelligence, +6 int booster item, +4 level:

1: 7
2: 6
3: 6
4: 6
5: 6
6: 5
7: 4
8: 3

Cleric 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 10, 16 int/wisdom/ 2 +4 items, +2 int/wis level:
(Includes domain, both progressions added together)

1: 12
2: 12
3: 10
4: 10
5: 8
6: 6
7: 3


A KEY POINT to realize with this is that this is the relative height of the mystic theurge's power, unless you have another class which progresses both (there are one or two) you're out of luck as far as more spells.

You've got 173 total spell levels versus 203 for the mystic theurge build. Not really that big of a difference, when you consider the distribution, but if you're set on having the most spells available mystic theurge might help, it's all a judgment call.

Talic
2008-03-03, 02:33 AM
True Necromancer is one, for a more undeady-feel. That said, you DO get spells in more areas, but without another dual advancement class, you're looking at 8th level spells in both... at level 19.

If you're set on theurge, go as a Jermlaine (MM2). Tiny size, fey. -8 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +6 Wis, -6 Cha.

A slight hit in Int, yeah, but look at the Wis and Dex. 28 point buy would look like this:

4 Str (4 points)
18 Dex (4 points)
12 Con (6 points)
14 Int (10 points)
18 Wis (4 points)
2 Cha (0 pts)

Now, hideously low Str, but being tiny, things will be light for you. Really light. Dex gives you a decent armor class (size helps there) and range touch (again, size good). Int is sufficient for defensive arcane spells until you can afford boost items, and wis is as good as you need in a 28 point buy. Turning won't be effective, but a Theurge build has worthless turning anyway.

Oh, and it's a LA +0 race, by the wizards updates for the MM2. Focus on illusion, get spells that make you harder to hit, and range touches, and you'll be golden.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 02:41 AM
Wow. Cha 2 is barely playable. Barely being a concession on my part.

shadeofblack
2008-03-03, 02:51 AM
how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

Talic
2008-03-03, 02:59 AM
Wow. Cha 2 is barely playable. Barely being a concession on my part.

Then drop Str to 3, and raise Cha to 3.


how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

Let's see.

4 levels sorceror, 4 levels favored soul, 10 levels theurge, to start. That gives you 7th level magic at 18. Go 1 more sorc, 1 more Cleric, and the build at 20 is:

Sorc 5/Fav 5/Theurge 10.

Starting at 21, resume Theurge, for 3 levels, getting you 9th level, both schools. At level 24, take Epic Spellcasting, and you get epic slots for both sides. From here, you're good. You'll be CL 23 in each, with slots as CL 19.

Nebo_
2008-03-03, 03:00 AM
If you're set on theurge, go as a Jermlaine (MM2). Tiny size, fey. -8 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +6 Wis, -6 Cha.


Terrible idea. Don't play a character who only casts spells, with a hit to your casting stat.



how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

Try being a bit more vague...

Less powerful than a wizard of the same level, in general. MT has an awful epic progression, apparently.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 03:03 AM
Would you rather they be weak or strong? The point of the class is to be jack of all trades, competent at none.

Actually, not so much. They're actually quite competant characters. Thing is, they're not insanely broken like pure casters are; they're still pretty strong, certainly stronger than a lot of classes.

It also depends on the sort of campaign; if you often have to fight tons and tons of consecutive encounters without resting, then they become better than they are otherwise.

Also, at extremely high levels they do start to be more interesting - at character level 20, assuming you go something like druid 3/wizard 3/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 4 you'll have 4 level 9 spells, which is only 1 fewer than a pure caster of that level is likely to have, and potentially 1 more 8th level spell than a pure caster of that level would get. However, that's ignoring the previous 13 levels where you were pretty far behind in terms of power level; if you can just skip to that point, they're a lot less sucky (though probably still inferior, they're at a minimum interesting), but you still have to get two stats up to 28, which is a bit ugly. The problem is (again) once you cross into epic threshold, again you'll probably fall behind, though the degree to which that happens, I don't really know.

Talic
2008-03-03, 03:05 AM
Terrible idea. Don't play a character who only casts spells, with a hit to your casting stat.


-2 to one stat, +6 to the other. Tiny size, as well. I think that's an acceptable reason to take a -2 to a single of the two casting stats.

No, the real terrible idea here is playing a theurge.


Actually, not so much. They're actually quite competant characters. Thing is, they're not insanely broken like pure casters are; they're still pretty strong, certainly stronger than a lot of classes.
Maybe, but worse at performing their job than any class. That's because they have no job that they do well. They can't tank, can barely boost (compare bull's strenth to any decent level 4 buff), they're ok at healing, but have less options than a full healer, and have inferior blasting to any class out there that can be made into a blaster.

So, you're trading out competence at any one thing to incompetence at most things, and barely making the grade in one.

Left out that "high level" bit. If you have to get a class to level 17+ to be worthwhile, then it's not a worthwhile class.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 03:59 AM
Then drop Str to 3, and raise Cha to 3.

I think you missed the point.

JBento
2008-03-03, 05:39 AM
No-one mentioned the Ultimate Magus the OP referred to, so I'm going to do it (since I find it an interesting class).

The UM is STILL less powerful than a single-class Wizard (but then again, everything is, unless you take a few noticeably broken should-never-have-existed stuff - such as IotSV and Incantatrix), though this is nearly denied if you use some barely-legal, not-RAI-in-my-opinion trick with Practiced Spellcaster.

UM is, however, substantially more powerful that the MT. Why? Two reasons: first, you only need one level outside of Wizard to qualify (one Sorcerer or Beguiler level to get 1st-level spontaneous arcane casting), which doesn't hamper you as much at lower levels.
Secondly, you can get spontaneous FREE metamagic effects, albeit not at will (which was the Incantatrix's main problems).
Plus, you also have some bonus feats and stuff along the class.

Talic
2008-03-03, 05:44 AM
I think you missed the point.

[Scrubbed]

Incidentally, at the levels that IotSV has all of their veils, it's very hard for a creature NOT to penetrate 1 to 2. Which is really all they have. Granted, it still has fullcasting, but it's not all it's cracked up to be. In the games I've ran with one of these in the party, the veils did not have any significant impact on the player's longevity (incidentally, the veilist did die shortly after attaining level 7 in the class)

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 06:01 AM
A 6 is a dump stat. A 3 charisma is bad mechanically, because there are numerous effects that damage/hinder/reduce stats, which become take-downs instead of hindrances if you have a stat that low, and from a roleplaying standpoint- if you have a charisma of 3, the DM should just tell you never to speak in game, because no one pays attention to you anyway.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-03, 06:18 AM
On a similar tack, four or lower strength just screams out Greater Shadows to me.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 06:20 AM
Hence why dropping str to 3 to raise cha to 3 was described as "not getting the point"

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-03, 06:59 AM
A 6 is a dump stat. A 3 charisma is bad mechanically, because there are numerous effects that damage/hinder/reduce stats, which become take-downs instead of hindrances if you have a stat that low, and from a roleplaying standpoint- if you have a charisma of 3, the DM should just tell you never to speak in game, because no one pays attention to you anyway.

That's a poor view of Charisma in my opinion. A Charisma of 2 is someone who can't help but be noticed every time they speak. People with 10 Charisma are invisible me too'ers. Someone with 2 is always talking about eating babies and those damn (Orcs, Half-Breeds, whatever else someone in the party is, but in a derogatory manner.)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-03, 07:02 AM
That's a poor view of Charisma in my opinion. A Charisma of 2 is someone who can't help but be noticed every time they speak. People with 10 Charisma are invisible me too'ers. Someone with 2 is always talking about eating babies and those damn (Orcs, Half-Breeds, whatever else someone in the party is, but in a derogatory manner.)I'd attribute that to someone with 6 WIS more than 2 CHA. To me, 2 CHA means you're barely able to communicate. Consider what 2 INT would mean.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-03, 07:17 AM
In order to attain MT, you need to have at least 3 levels in Wizard and 3 levels in whatever divine caster class.

So by the end of the first level of mystic theurge you'll have 3 Wiz/3 Clr/1 MT. Meaning a caster lever for arcane and divine 4th level. You'll still be at level 2 spells.

Meanwhile if you take straight wizard or straight cleric or druid, you would be at a caster level of 7. You're nerfing yourself with Mystic Theurge. And bookkeeping can be a nightmare.

EDIT: Somehow I forgot to mention that at level 7 you'll be casting 4th level spells. Don't know how I forgot that.
Well, there are workarounds; the Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8, for instance, is never more than two levels behind (1 spell level) on Wizard casting, and ends up quite a bit ahead on the Pseudo-Cleric casting from Ur-Priest (9th level spells at 15th or 16th level).

This is, however, exactly the reason - while the Mystic Theurge looks good on paper, it's very painful in practice, relative to a pure Wizard or a pure Cleric. However, as Wizard and Cleric are two of the most powerful classes in the game, this isn't particularly troublesome if you're not optimizing.

mikeejimbo
2008-03-03, 07:30 AM
Another option: Convince your DM to play gestalt and play a Sorcerer // Cleric. Or Wizard // Cleric. Or my personal favorite (and banned) combination: Wizard // Archivist

Talic
2008-03-03, 08:32 AM
I'd attribute that to someone with 6 WIS more than 2 CHA. To me, 2 CHA means you're barely able to communicate. Consider what 2 INT would mean.

Charisma isn't a measure of how you communicate. It's how you deal with other things. Specifically, things with sentience, for the most part.

Mechanically, answer me this. Assuming you're being honest, forthright, and negotiating... What's the difference between a 2nd level character with a 10 cha, and 0 ranks in diplomacy, or a 2nd level character with a 3 Cha, and 4 ranks in diplomacy?

Both have the same roll to influence people. Low charisma doesn't mean that you can't communicate. It just means that it doesn't come naturally. This can be explained by being mean, uttering a faux pas at the wrongest time, being completely apathetic to the needs of others, being butt ugly, or any of a variety of factors.

Hope this is helpful.

Sir_Leorik
2008-03-03, 09:41 AM
The way I see it there are three problems with Mystic Theurge. The biggest one is that your caster level and highest spell level will be below that of a single-class divine or arcane caster. This has been gone into in great detail by previous posters, but it's worth mentioning. The second problem is that the class gives nothing but caster-level advancement, which compared to say Arcane Hieropahnt, which improves Wild Shape, and turns your Druid's Animal Companion into a familiar, makes it a poor PrC. Third it has the HD and BAB of a Wizard, which added to the arcane spell failure from armor, means that if the MT is the only healer in the party, he's in danger of being dropped by one or two attacks at higher levels.

That said I've seen players who make the class work. When there is no other arcane or divine caster at the table, the MT may be the only one who can heal or buff the party. In this respect the MT is very good, since they can get more buffs than a single class caster, and they can convert spells into healing without worrying about running out of spells as quickly. However, if you have enough players, it's best to have one focus on playing the wizard and another on playing the cleric.

Person_Man
2008-03-03, 10:00 AM
A couple things:

The DMG suggests four combat encounters per game day. Most DMs use less. By mid levels, combat encounters generally last 1-4 rounds. So for most game days, you will have 4-16ish rounds to cast spells. A Wizard with high Int can pull that off at 7th level. Beyond that, extra spells are often useless. And even if you do run into a marathon game day, you can fall back on wands or other magic items. So as everyone has said, you generally want more powerful spells, not more plentiful spells.

As others have mentioned, you can break Mystic Theurge by using a level of a fast caster prestige class instead of Cleric or Wizard. For example, Nar Demonbinder, Ur Priest, or Sublime Chord. This will get you good progression on both sides for most of your class levels.

Finally, its worth mentioning that the rumor for 4th ed is that they're eliminating Gish and Theurge prestige classes, and just creating base classes that approximate them in a more balanced way. So hopefully this problem will be fixed. But I'm not holding my breath.

Burley
2008-03-03, 10:49 AM
I'm not gonna mess with the Mystic Theurge topic, because Everybody else is, and they're mostly just repeating each other.
However, this is the reason you CR logic is flawed. When 20% of resources are expended on an even leveled CR, it is still 20% of a PARTY'S resources. And, resources aren't just items, rather, it is items, spells, and special "X per Y" abilities, like Flurry of Blows, or something useful. (:smalltongue:)
You're also forgetting a very important thing: Actions per round. Of course your Fighter isn't gonna stand a chance against that Dino. They each get one move and one standard (and a free action if you have anything to throw in there) per round and the Dino deals, obviously, way more damage. The course of the encounter should play out thustly: The Wizard and Cleric buff the Fighter who moves forward and attacks while the Rouge moves around back. Wizard blasts or debuffs, and the Cleric buffs/debuffs/heals/blasts as he sees fit, while the Fighter takes another shot and the Rogue uses the Fighter to flank and attacks. Rinse and repeat.

Classes are interchangable to an extent, but when CRs were created, that is the general idea of how a fight would go down. Keeping in line with something like that, an encounter for a 16th level party vs. a CR 16 monster should be challenging but not too deadly.
The balance of CR is not level, but number of actions per round.

skeeter_dan
2008-03-03, 12:41 PM
The only way to make MT viable is to cheese your way into it early, which depends on your situation. If you have a DM who's cool with you using Ur-Priest or Precocious Apprentice to qualify for MT early, go for it. That's what I'm doing in a campaign right now. I love the idea of the Mystic Theurge and it has great roleplaying opportunities. The versatility is also lovely, though apparently not well-loved by the Playground.

However, if your DM won't let you cheese yourself into MT early, it's pretty average. I'm sure you can still have fun with it, but it's not going to be as viable in most situations.

DeathQuaker
2008-03-03, 03:04 PM
Mystic Theurge is weak combat wise. Won't argue that.

They could be fun to play (please note the word "fun", and note that the word "uber" or "powerful" or what-have-you is not there), for any of the following reasons (assuming you're sticking largely to core):

1. You're playing in a fairly balanced RPG where combat is only part of the scenario; while the MT would continue to lack in uber smashy-smashy spells, they'd be helpful in non-combat situations where their many low-level spells would be fun to use for non-combat purposes.... finally, someone who feels free to cast Tiny Hut and Find Traps. The character's usefulness would of course be somewhat dependent on what other characters in the party can do, but that's true of any class, really.

2. You end up frequently in combat situations where you have time to buff beforehand. The MT may only get as many spells off per round as everyone else, but if they have a chance to buff their friends before hand, a stack of low-level buffs still adds up to handiness.

3. You want to be an item crafter; combining divine and arcane spells could be a lot of fun to make some unique magic items. Even if they use relatively low-level spells, they could probably be quite useful for both the theurge and his party.

4. As a sort of corrolary, Mystic Theurges can use a ton of magic items; no bother worrying if it's an arcane or divine scroll--he can cast it.

5. An MT necromancer would be kind of fun to play.... lots of animate spells from the arcane side and control/rebuke from the cleric's side could be put to good use. Good NPC idea, actually....

I'll also note that yeah, where the Mystic Theurge lacks is low caster level, the many threads I've seen that discuss the "uberness" of wizards often cites spells like Ray of Infeeblement, Fly, and Invisibility. An MT is as capable of these as a wizard; if you allow Practiced Spellcaster, an MT is probably as good to go on these as anyone else. (And generally, I've often found a well placed low-level spell can be more effective than a hastily cast high level one.)

Again, not arguing that MT isn't weak--but there are reasons to play one and one would not feel useless if the player is smart and/or creative and/or flexible.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 03:29 PM
Charisma isn't a measure of how you communicate. It's how you deal with other things. Specifically, things with sentience, for the most part.

Mechanically, answer me this. Assuming you're being honest, forthright, and negotiating... What's the difference between a 2nd level character with a 10 cha, and 0 ranks in diplomacy, or a 2nd level character with a 3 Cha, and 4 ranks in diplomacy?

Both have the same roll to influence people. Low charisma doesn't mean that you can't communicate. It just means that it doesn't come naturally. This can be explained by being mean, uttering a faux pas at the wrongest time, being completely apathetic to the needs of others, being butt ugly, or any of a variety of factors.

You're wrong, actually. A 2 charisma is barely sentient in the same way that something with 2 Wisdom or 2 Intelligence is. Your flaw is that you aren't actually reading -what the stats mean-; they mean things other than "skill check modifiers".

"Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability reflects actual strength of personality, not merely how others percieve you in a social setting."

Fundamentally, someone with 3 charisma has incredibly low self-esteem and is barely functional (they're probably in the severely autistic or mentally retarded range anyway); someone with a charisma of 2 is non-functional as a person. That's animal levels of charisma. Your ability to differentiate between yourself and others, your ability to actually do something, and your ability to communicate really in any sort of useful manner is pretty much nil. The only real human comparison you could make there is probably with severely autistic people; you're basically not functional as a person at this charisma level, with other people having to do lots of things for you because you can't understand them. Remember that charisma 0 indicates you are completely nonfunctional. At that point, you are as charismatic as a lizard. Notably, 3 charisma is the level of interaction an octopus is capable of, and while it wouldn't be precisely analogous its probably a good indication of what level of interpersonal communication you are capable of.

Tellah
2008-03-03, 03:43 PM
I recommend that players who want a dual arcane/divine caster go straight Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), from Heroes of Horror (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/885227200). The Archivist has access to all divine spells, including domain spells. This means that, provided you can find the scrolls, you can get nearly every great arcane spell by picking them up from domains. Oh, the goodies you can grab, even with the SRD-available domains:


Shapechange (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#animal)
Major Creation (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#artifice)
Charm Person (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#charm)
Power Word: Blind (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#darkness)
Mind Blank (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#liberation)
Identify and Mordenkainen's Disjunction (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/clericDomains.html#magic)


Not to mention Greater Teleportation, Time Stop, Polymorph any Object, etc. Now, with Mystic Theurge, you'll be behind three spell levels without using cheesy exploits, meaning that at level 20 you'll just start casting those tasty 9th-level spells. The Archivist starts at 17, baby. Furthermore, the Archivist runs entirely on INT, gets 4+INT skills, and has a d6 hit die.

Simply superior. Archivist is probably the second best class in the game, right after the Artificer. Now, if your game doesn't operate on that kind of power level, if you're sharing the table with a TWF ranger and a straight-classed fighter, you might want to tone it down a bit, and a Mystic Theurge might be one way to do it. I prefer, however, to run a straight Archivist and stay a level behind the party, crafting items to make everyone stronger and give them fun things to do in combat, so your powerful character uses his awesome might to make everyone great, rather than dominating the game on your own. Turn Batman into Forge, if you will.

So there you go: a useful, flavorful, mechanically strong character that casts most arcane spells and all divine spells, and does so off of one stat. No book purchase required.

SurlySeraph
2008-03-03, 04:18 PM
how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

This reminds me of a 20th level Sorcerer/Favored Soul/ Mystic Theurge/ something build I made when I was curious about how many spells per day I could theoretically get. It got about 72 spells per day.

Actually, I wonder how much more powerful a Mystic Theurge becomes with Celerity and scrolls of Timestop. If you can give yourself enough extra actions to actually use all those spells, it could be very strong.

And that brings me back to the epic level question. Automatic Quicken is a very useful epic feat. If you took it 3 times, all of your non-epic spells would be automatically quickened. A Sorcerer/ Favored Soul/ MT with all of its spells quickened would be able to unload a lot of spells very quickly, which would make it competitive with a straight-up epic Wizard.

shadeofblack
2008-03-03, 04:35 PM
This reminds me of a 20th level Sorcerer/Favored Soul/ Mystic Theurge/ something build I made when I was curious about how many spells per day I could theoretically get. It got about 72 spells per day.

thanks, I was just about to calculate that. I'm still gonna do it though, just to see how many of each spell level he would get.

Artanis
2008-03-03, 04:49 PM
*posts about how very many spells the Theurge gets*
Sounds similar in effect to the Warlock.

Person_Man
2008-03-03, 05:02 PM
Sounds similar in effect to the Warlock.

Agreed. If you're playing in the World's Largest Dungeon or a similar game and you're really just that worried about running out of spells, be a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept. Warlock has some great PrC now, and Dragonfire Adept is a phenomenal battlefield controller with very little tweaking or optimization needed.

UserClone
2008-03-03, 05:13 PM
Let's talk about Ultimate Magus:
Illumian (Krau+Whatever{Naen is the obvious choice here, but Vaul could potentially save your bacon})
Sorcerer2/Wizard3/Ultimate Magus1 with Enhanced Power Sigils has 3rd-level Sorcerer/3rd-level Wizard, but Sorcerer CL of 7/Wizard CL of 7. Well, you can only cast 2nd-level spells so far, but with a higher CL than a straight Wizard. Interesting to say the least.

Paul H
2008-03-03, 06:43 PM
Hi

I play a MT in the RPGA's (soon to expire) Living Greyhawk campaign.
He's a Dwarf Clr 3 (Boccob: Magic & Trickery) Warmage 4 MT 4 (total 11th lvl)
Practiced Spellcaster in Warmage.

Mystic Theurges aren't the main spellcaster - they're excellent support casters. The only time I've ever been happy playing primary cleric is when I've 'played down' to a lower level scenario, but then my warmage spells ended many encounters too quickly. They're also probably the best magic crafters around with both arcane & divine spells available.

It's nice to be able to open battle with 10HD Fireball, and still help out with healing later. I don't get many big cleric spells, but then I just need to keep 'proper' cleric alive. Because of my CWI feat, I start scenario dishing out goodies such as Pearls of Power, Momento Magikas, Vest of Resistance, Bracers of Quickstrike, etc.

Playing a MT is very enjoyable - they're very good at supporting others. Just don't let them be the primary spellcaster.

Cheers
Paul H

Jack_Simth
2008-03-03, 06:52 PM
Let's talk about Ultimate Magus:
Illumian (Krau+Whatever{Naen is the obvious choice here, but Vaul could potentially save your bacon})
Sorcerer2/Wizard3/Ultimate Magus1 with Enhanced Power Sigils has 3rd-level Sorcerer/3rd-level Wizard, but Sorcerer CL of 7/Wizard CL of 7. Well, you can only cast 2nd-level spells so far, but with a higher CL than a straight Wizard. Interesting to say the least.

Trick with Ultimate Magus:
Which is advanced depends on the caster level in that set, not your class level. If you take Practiced Spellcaster for one of them, you can weight it a bit - the Wizard-4/Sorcerer-1 with Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer) has a Sorcerer caster level of 5 - which means it's the Wizard level that gets boosted for the first "lower of the two" settings. This lets you "weight" your character one way or the other.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-03, 11:41 PM
Charisma discussion

Note that an ooze has a 1 cha. A zombie has a 1 cha. A squid has a 2 cha. Most animals have a 5-7 cha.

Most hags have good charisma scores, btw.

EvilElitest
2008-03-03, 11:42 PM
This is one of those threads that just keeps coming up. oh well, can't expect everyone to know.
from
EE

Talic
2008-03-04, 12:23 AM
Note that an ooze has a 1 cha. A zombie has a 1 cha. A squid has a 2 cha. Most animals have a 5-7 cha.

Most hags have good charisma scores, btw.

The ooze and zombie also have no more than 1 int, which explains their ability to communicate limitations.

Same as squid. Most animals have int too low to have a language and understand basic concepts required for effective communication.

In other words, you're taking stats out of context, to suit your arguement, even though, when taken in context, ability to speak languages, and communicate, is CLEARLY based on int.

Ability to modify how creatures react to that communication is Cha.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 12:27 AM
The ooze and zombie also have no more than 1 int, which explains their ability to communicate limitations.

Same as squid. Most animals have int too low to have a language and understand basic concepts required for effective communication.

In other words, you're taking stats out of context, to suit your arguement, even though, when taken in context, ability to speak languages, and communicate, is CLEARLY based on int.

Ability to modify how creatures react to that communication is Cha.

Ability to communicate is not "clearly" based on int; really, it isn't "clearly" based on either stat. Both play a role in it; as I pointed out before, a severely autistic person would probably be an example of someone with normal wis and int but very low charisma.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-04, 12:43 AM
In other words, you're taking stats out of context, to suit your arguement, even though, when taken in context, ability to speak languages, and communicate, is CLEARLY based on int.

I would have put forth some examples of creatures with good int and that low of a cha, but there aren't any in the SRD. Which says something.


Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.


Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Since attributes are a scale, creatures with a cha of 2 are barely capable of differentiating things themself from things that are not themself.

Talic
2008-03-04, 01:12 AM
I would have put forth some examples of creatures with good int and that low of a cha, but there aren't any in the SRD. Which says something.

Yeah, that designers didn't think to put any in. Or that it doesn't usually happen in the average animal... We don't know WHY that is the case, and, until we do, idly speculating does nothing but cloud the issue. Moving on.



Since attributes are a scale, creatures with a cha of 2 are barely capable of differentiating things themself from things that are not themself.
I see nothing in the Charisma description listing "force of personality = sense of self." It could also mean, for example, that the character views anything other than himself as unimportant, and has a hard time seeing other creatures as similar to himself. In other words, it could mean that he ONLY has a sense of self. Everything else is an object or a challenge.

That said, your arguements have put us rather close to thread hijacking, which hardly serves anything. Again, moving on.

DementedFellow
2008-03-04, 01:32 AM
I remember when I first heard about Mystic Theurge. I was really excited at the thought of playing both arcane and divine caster. But then I actually started making the character.

Lets forget for a moment the metamagics, but the sheer number of spells known + spells prepared is a nightmare. I vowed then and there for simplicity's sake to stick to one type of caster and never to mingle the classes that don't share a spell list.

I feel for the OP. The idea of a Mystic Theurge is a neat one, admittedly. But it wasn't the hit in caster level that scared me away, it was the bookkeeping. So if someone has fun in mind, and doesn't mind keeping up with so many things, then by all means play a Mystic Theurge. But if you are like me and usually play spontaneous casters because you are too indecisive to adequately prepare spells ahead of time, then maybe another PrC should be explored.

Skjaldbakka
2008-03-04, 02:52 AM
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma.

Sense of self is an aspect of Charisma. Otherwise, the above would not be true, and the above is RAW.

Talic
2008-03-04, 03:00 AM
Sense of self is an aspect of Charisma. Otherwise, the above would not be true, and the above is RAW.

And the above states that ANYTHING with one charisma is capable of making that distinction. My example appears to meet and exceed that criteria. Next point?