PDA

View Full Version : Arcane Archer



Seatbelt
2008-03-03, 03:36 PM
Can someone spell out for me why this is a bad class? I've seen arguments here saying "No it is teh suxxors" but I can't see a good reason why. Maybe I'm blind?

Kizara
2008-03-03, 03:43 PM
1) It requires you to have arcane casting, and (2?) of it's abilities work off such. Yet, it does nothing to advance your casting.

2) It's main ability is that you can auto-enchant your arrows, but enchantments to bow and arrows dont stack directly, and you could simply have someone cast Greater Magic Weapon on your quiver to achieve the same results.

3) The few cool abilities it gets are only 1/day. So where as most archers need to fire many arrows rapidly and in multiple rounds, your abilities are of little help.

Essentially, pure fighter would actually do more for you optimization-wise.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-03, 03:47 PM
Can someone spell out for me why this is a bad class? I've seen arguments here saying "No it is teh suxxors" but I can't see a good reason why. Maybe I'm blind?

Okay, let's go through this:
-It requires spellcasting, but doesn't advance it.
-Enhance Arrow: this ability is totally overridden by a single third-level spell, Greater Magic Weapon... which you could be *casting* if you hadn't taken Arcane Archer.
-Imbue Arrow: all this does is give you longer range, at the cost of actually having to hit with a normal attack roll. You rarely actually *need* to deliver spells at a bow's range rather than at Medium spell range, say. Furthermore, Arcane Archer doesn't advance spellcasting, so your options for Imbued spells are *very* limited.
-Seeker Arrow: you can't full attack... and it's one shot, once per day. Um. Woo-hoo?
-Phase Arrow: see above.
-Hail of Arrow: this is only going to give you a couple more attacks than your full attack anyway, assuming plenty of enemies. Also, focusing fire is the better strategy in D&D, so this ability sucks... and it's once per day on top of that.
-Arrow of Death: takes a day to make. One arrow at a time. A DC 20 (read: low; monsters will all make it) Fort save. Lame.

Compare to Eldritch Knight, which gets you 4 or 5 spell levels over 10 levels.

The_Werebear
2008-03-03, 03:58 PM
It is a holdover from 3.0, where, if I recall correctly, arrow enchantment and bow enchantment stacked, so it was doing something.

Nowadays, it is not useful for the above reasons.

Seatbelt
2008-03-03, 03:58 PM
Ok, so the next question is why don't bow and arrow enchantments stack? If If I have a +1 Bow is there any reason to have a +1 Arrow?

The_Werebear
2008-03-03, 04:00 PM
None whatsoever. Enhancement bonus is Enhancement bonus, and they won't stack. So, it is absolutely meaningless once you get a magic bow.

kamikasei
2008-03-03, 04:02 PM
Ok, so the next question is why don't bow and arrow enchantments stack? If If I have a +1 Bow is there any reason to have a +1 Arrow?

Yes: to have a bunch of other enchantments. Bonuses don't stack, but effects do, so the thing to do is have a +1 flaming bow with greater magic weapon cast on it, and a bunch of +1 shocking or +1 bane, etc., arrows (stack on more and more weapon properties as you go, and give the ones which only work on some enemies to your arrows, so you can choose the right arrow for the job).

There's no reason to have arrows which have a +1 and nothing else, though, if you have a +1 bow.

Seatbelt
2008-03-03, 04:03 PM
But what about DR? Does the magic bow confer its magicness to the arrow for the sake of DR?

Or, since I have the free arrow enhancements, couldnt I get a +1 bow of flaming shocking life drinking asskickery, and then shoot a +5 arrow of flaming shocking life drinking asskickery?

Edit: Ninja-answered.

Ok then, so you're telling me it's never worth it to always get free magic arrows? Yes I can cast greater magic weapon, but t hat's only X times per day, while my arrows are always +5

Starsinger
2008-03-03, 04:06 PM
But what about DR? Does the magic bow confer its magicness to the arrow for the sake of DR?

Or, since I have the free arrow enhancements, couldnt I get a +1 bow of flaming shocking life drinking asskickery, and then shoot a +5 arrow of flaming shocking life drinking asskickery?

You could, but you should just leave it with the bow having flaming shocking life drinking asskickery and just fire +5 arrows in that case, since the extra money for the arrows also having the enchantments does nothing but cost you extra money.

JellyPooga
2008-03-03, 04:07 PM
The point of Magic Arrows is to put special abilities that are particularly useful vs. certain enemies (like Bane or Disprupting) on them, or for more versatility with regards to defeating creatures with Energy Resistance (i.e. you could have a +1 Flaming Bow with normal arrows and have problems vs. critters with Fire Resistance/Immunity, OR you could have a +2 Bow, 10 +1 Flaming Arrows, 10 +1 Frost Arrows, etc, etc and have no troubles vs. any ER).

In short, magic arrows are a cheap way to get lots of special abilities without owning several magic bows.

The_Werebear
2008-03-03, 04:07 PM
Yes

That's the only scenario where it is useful, because the different other magic things stack. So you can have (effectively) a +10 weapon while only paying for two +5s. The limiting factor is that the enhancement bonuses can't stack.

So, +1 arrows with a +3 bow is not useful. +5 arrows with a +1 Shock Flame Wounding Bow can be useful though.

The arcane archer ability does nothing though, because the arrows are all vanilla +1 arrows.

Triple Ninja. Wow.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-03, 04:09 PM
Ok then, so you're telling me it's never worth it to always get free magic arrows? Yes I can cast greater magic weapon, but t hat's only X times per day, while my arrows are always +5

It's not "never worth it". But it's never *ever* worth 10 levels in a prestige class.
Greater Magic Weapon cast on your bow will apply to as many arrows as you want, and lasts for hours per caster level (that is, the entire adventuring day). On top of that, a Fighter 8/Wizard 2/AA 10 gets 1st-level spells; a Fighter 8/Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight 10 gets sixth level spells (and that's not optimized at all).

Seatbelt
2008-03-03, 04:11 PM
Yes

That's the only scenario where it is useful, because the different other magic things stack. So you can have (effectively) a +10 weapon while only paying for two +5s. The limiting factor is that the enhancement bonuses can't stack.

So, +1 arrows with a +3 bow is not useful. +5 arrows with a +1 Shock Flame Wounding Bow can be useful though.

The arcane archer ability does nothing though, because the arrows are all vanilla +1 arrows.

Triple Ninja. Wow.


You think that's impressive, I got ninjas while quoting you.

Can I get a page number or sound byte or something on the magic bow confering magic for the purposes of DR thing? My group always assumed that magic bows don't make magic arrows, and the "some guy on the internet..." excuse doesn't work. :P


Edit, sorry to nitpick etc, but I occasionally get into arguments with my group over why this class is bad, but I usually loose, for the same questions I'm asking now. :P

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-03, 04:14 PM
From the "magic weapons" section of the SRD (and the PHB):

"Ranged Weapons and Ammunition

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). "

On top of that, individual properties, like Holy, specify that "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition."



Basically, this class is bad because it doesn't DO anything for you. Even a non-spellcaster can buy a Pearl of Power III for her Wizard buddy in return for a casting of Greater Magic Weapon each day.

The_Werebear
2008-03-03, 04:15 PM
I'll see if I can dig it up. Would an SRD link work instead? It will probably be easier to find.

Here we go.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm


The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

It is the seventh paragraph down.

Seatbelt
2008-03-03, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the help guys. In my group we have a Fighter-8/Order of the Bow Initiate-2 (for firing into melee) who was considering the arcane archer, and I was arguing why it was a terrible, horrible idea and not just a "sub-optimal" idea.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-03, 04:36 PM
To replicate all the non-1/day usefullness of Arcane archer:

1) Get caster (arcane or divine, it doesn't matter) with access to 3rd level spells or higher

2) get said caster to cast Greater Magic Weapon on you.

3) Repeat on a daily basis.

OR, if you want to get cheeze...

1) Get caster a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell

2) Suggest to caster to invest in Reach Spell (or some other method of making touch spells have a range, such as Archmage or Heirophant)

3) Chain Reach GMW for the entire party. Depending on who is doing it, can also follow up with Chain Reach Magic Vestments to do the same for armor. Otherwise, try Protection from Energy, Protection from Evil, or any of the "+4 to X stat" spells as handy to buff out the entire party with.

Congratulations, now the whole party has the same benefits as Arcane Archer, without having to loose class levels to do it.

At 8th level, duration is 8 hours, effectively an adventuring day. By 12th level, it's safe to assume that whenever the party is active (i.e. not hiding in an extra-dimensional space), it's up.

Person_Man
2008-03-03, 04:52 PM
It's also worth mentioning that most of the Arcane Archer's special abilities can be duplicated by Ranger spells. So a Ranger 20 with the Spell Compendium and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat can do everything that the world's best Arcane Archer can do, but better, and more times per day, and he has an Animal Companion, Evasion, Hide in Plain Site, etc. (I think the only exception might be the Arrow of Death, which has a weak DC 20 Fort Save and takes a full day's work to make).

Squash Monster
2008-03-03, 04:55 PM
One quick fix I've seen is to replace the +1 enhancement levels with +1 level of an existing spellcasting class. It's still underpowered then, but nowhere near as much so. If, on top of this, you replaced all the 1/day abilities with sacrificing spells of a specific level to use them, then the class would at least be usable.

Still quite underpowered, though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-03, 05:00 PM
The fix I made gives them 1/2 caster progression. Phase arrow now applies Ghost Touch to all arrows fired. Seeker Arrow is replaced with Elemental Arrow which gives +1d6 of your choice element type (changable as a move action, Lightning, Ice, Fire only). Hail of Arrows now gives you an extra shot at your highest BAB with a full attack, at no penalty. Arrow of Death was replaced by... something else, can't remember what at the moment. It wasn't a 1/day ability, anyways.

FlyMolo
2008-03-03, 05:03 PM
The BEST fix is simply make weapon and arrow enhancements stack, but only if you're an arcane archer. Or only stack up to your AA level. (to prevent scary dipping)

JellyPooga
2008-03-03, 05:08 PM
The BEST fix is simply make weapon and arrow enhancements stack, but only if you're an arcane archer. Or only stack up to your AA level. (to prevent scary dipping)

Could you instead make the AA's Enhanced Arrows ability grant a different bonus (like Competence or Luck) to Attack and Damage, instead of an Enhancement bonus (thereby allowing it to stack)?

It would still be hugely sub-par though...

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-03, 05:10 PM
The BEST fix is simply make weapon and arrow enhancements stack, but only if you're an arcane archer. Or only stack up to your AA level. (to prevent scary dipping)

If you're going to do this, word it this way:

An Arcane Archer's Enhance Arrow ability specifically stacks with any enhancements already on the bow, but do not count together for purposes of damage reduction. Thus a 10th level Arcane Archer (+5) firing a +3 bow would have an effective +8, however even though this is higher than +5, it is not considered epic.

Personally, I think this would still make the class suck, although suck less. Casting levels would be far more useful to the character.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-03, 05:13 PM
To replicate all the non-1/day usefullness of Arcane archer:

1) Get caster (arcane or divine, it doesn't matter) with access to 3rd level spells or higher

2) get said caster to cast Greater Magic Weapon on you.

3) Repeat on a daily basis.

OR, if you want to get cheeze...

1) Get caster a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell

2) Suggest to caster to invest in Reach Spell (or some other method of making touch spells have a range, such as Archmage or Heirophant)

3) Chain Reach GMW for the entire party. Depending on who is doing it, can also follow up with Chain Reach Magic Vestments to do the same for armor. Otherwise, try Protection from Energy, Protection from Evil, or any of the "+4 to X stat" spells as handy to buff out the entire party with.

Congratulations, now the whole party has the same benefits as Arcane Archer, without having to loose class levels to do it.

At 8th level, duration is 8 hours, effectively an adventuring day. By 12th level, it's safe to assume that whenever the party is active (i.e. not hiding in an extra-dimensional space), it's up.

You don't need reach GMW has a range greater than touch. Just chain it.

throtecutter
2008-03-03, 07:12 PM
If planned right, an Arcane Archer can do some scary things with imbue arrow. The worst being to stick the opponent in an AMF, it's like an improved disjunction.
Or, if the DM allows the splitting property to double the spell imbued, they make a decent nuker.

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 07:49 PM
The only REAL use for AA is a 2-level dip for Imbue Arrows (look at Rachel's list again and you'll see you lose nothing by stopping there) for a Gish to use personal spherical effects at very long ranges with the added bonus of bow damage with each effect. Even then, it's optimal to take two caster levels instead, but if you want to be Arcane Archer, there you go. Heck, Sublime Chord can be built so that you'll lose no casting taking AA: Bard 8/AA 2/Sublime Chord 2/whatever Gish-class mix 8 (Abjurant Champ 5/Spellsword 1/something else 2). That still gets BAB 17 and has full Sublime Chord-casting along with solid Bard-skills. So if I was forced with a gun to play an Arcane Archer, that's what I'd pick. Of course, the fact that it's Cha-based with no Cha-based skills sucks and no Able Learner (unless you're a Half-Elf...eww, don't mention it!), along with low Int so you can't pick up with all the Ranger-skills, but it works. Costs you 3 feats (will be useful on early levels for a bard to contribute anyways though) and a crapton of skills though, so it's not for the faint of heart.

I've personally rebuilt the class and given it half caster level advancement, the ability to use a variety of arrow enhancements equal to the bonus you could confer on your arrows, along with making all those abilities usable ½ class level/day instead of 1/day, and Arrow of Death keyed off your primary casting stat and AA level. I was pleased with it, it didn't feel overpowered (½ caster level advancement does that), but really did a good job being a magical archer.


EDIT: Do note that the Sublime Chord-build loses out on some pivotal Wizard-spells though:
-True Strike (there goes the plan of sinking a Manyshot in their FACE)
-Greater Magic Weapon (but it wouldn't scale anymore once you go Sublime anyways, so I guess it isn't too big of a loss)
-Flame Arrow (great for archers; free 1d6 extra on each attack against everything non-Fire Immune (those DO come up, albeit rarely))

As a boon, however, you get Cure Critical Wounds (it never hurts to have a contingency plan for the dimensional rift leaving you alone in a dungeon with dimensional seal), and Greater Heroism and Greater Dispel Magic are both level 5-spells. Oh, and Song of Arcane Power easily makes your CL-dependant spells at least equal to your HD (your caster level is 2 lower than that) without spending a feat on Practiced Spellcaster. You get few other spells early too thanks to them being Bard, but you'll have to come up with ways around the lack of True Strike et al. I suppose you could abuse the crap out of your Bard-levels and try to max. UMD. You could easily reach 11 ranks without taking any crossclass and since you're a Cha-based caster, that starts to be enough to do it pretty consistently. Maybe few more crossclass ranks and you'll be covered.

Squash Monster
2008-03-03, 08:40 PM
I completely forgot to mention one of the stranger uses for Arcane Archer.

A completely different underpowered class, Havoc Mage, has an ability Battlecast that lets you cast a spell and perform a "single weapon attack" at the same time as a full-round action. Due to the odd wording of it, you can use Battlecast and Imbue Arrow in the same round. That means casting two spells, with the only limitation being that one of them must have an area effect.

Mind you, getting this combo loses 4 spell levels, so you won't be getting 9th level spells. Not worth it, from a pure power standpoint, but a lot of fun.

(Also note that Swiftblade does this better, although later)

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 08:46 PM
I completely forgot to mention one of the stranger uses for Arcane Archer.

A completely different underpowered class, Havoc Mage, has an ability Battlecast that lets you cast a spell and perform a "single weapon attack" at the same time as a full-round action. Due to the odd wording of it, you can use Battlecast and Imbue Arrow in the same round. That means casting two spells, with the only limitation being that one of them must have an area effect.

Mind you, getting this combo loses 4 spell levels, so you won't be getting 9th level spells. Not worth it, from a pure power standpoint, but a lot of fun.

(Also note that Swiftblade does this better, although later)

Actually...Wizard-based Sublime Chord-build has 4 open levels to play with. While BAB will be a problem (alleviated by Fractional BAB), you should get at least level 9 Sublime Chord-casting along with Havoc and Arcane Archer. Also, you forgot that this all means that you'll actually have a Swift Action left after that, so you'll have effectively a 3/turn casting AND one attack to boot.

holywhippet
2008-03-03, 09:02 PM
I doubt I'd ever take more than two levels in arcane archer. Imbue arrow though, that offers all sorts of interesting possibilites - want to fireball someone at extreme range, you can.

The prerequisites are kind of annoying though. The main people interested in this class would be casters, but casters wouldn't be spending their feats on the various archery feats required to take this prestige class. A bard might take them, but a bard wouldn't get as much benefit from this prestige class.

Squash Monster
2008-03-03, 09:32 PM
Actually...Wizard-based Sublime Chord-build has 4 open levels to play with. While BAB will be a problem (alleviated by Fractional BAB), you should get at least level 9 Sublime Chord-casting along with Havoc and Arcane Archer. Also, you forgot that this all means that you'll actually have a Swift Action left after that, so you'll have effectively a 3/turn casting AND one attack to boot.Indeed, that's clever. Just note that the attack you make has to be a bow attack at the center of where you want the spell that has to be an area. Playing this character, I'd usually ignore the extra attack, since if you miss with an imbued arrow it fizzles (much better to aim at the ground).

What exactly would this build look like, anyway?

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 10:32 PM
No, the attack is the Bow-roll for the Imbue Arrow. If it hits, you'll deal normal arrow damage too, since y'know, you just hit the target with an arrow. The build would be hard to pull off, especially without Dragonwrought Kobold Battle Sorcerer using Flaws (to have enough feats) and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to cheat a level. I'll give it a go:

Battle Sorcerer 5/Bard 1 (by fractions, BAB 4.5)/Havoc Mage 3 (CL applied to Battle Sorcerer, giving you level 6 Sorcerer casting for level 3 spells; BAB 6.75 qualifies for AA)/Arcane Archer 1/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Archer +1/Havoc Mage +2/Abjurant Champion 5

That gets level 9 Sublime Chord-casting giving you access to level 9 spells along with Imbue Arrow and Battle Cast. Of course, you better have an insane Int to get all those prerequisite skills, but there you go. Oh yea, the final stuff:
BAB 11*.75+2*.5+7*1=16.25
Sublime Chord Caster Level 15 (19 with Practiced Spellcaster, 23 with full Song of Arcane Power, for buffs et al.)
Battle Sorcerer Caster Level 6
Bard Caster Level 1


I tried Wizard as entry, but the BAB kept being a problem with the entry. Probably some early Prestige-entry could fix that, but at least that works. Of course, without Fractional BAB, there's no way to make it work, but that one actually isn't horrible; Battle Sorcerer is horrible alone, but since Sublime Chord's casting is totally separate of it, the build works just fine. Of course, you'd rather not play it before level ~11.

Admiral Squish
2008-03-03, 10:42 PM
So, how about this for a fix? Give it 3/4 spellcasting progression, make the bonuses stack like shneeky suggested, make the enhancement bonus change-able to different sorts of effects, and up the abilities to usable at will, but with a full-round action each.

Are we perhaps approaching playablity now?

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 10:59 PM
So, how about this for a fix? Give it 3/4 spellcasting progression, make the bonuses stack like shneeky suggested, make the enhancement bonus change-able to different sorts of effects, and up the abilities to usable at will, but with a full-round action each.

Are we perhaps approaching playablity now?

Yea, that works. I personally like the fix I posted on the other page:
-½ spellcasting progression
-Abilities usable ½ class levels/day
-Arrow of Death has Primary Casting Stat+Class Level+10 Saving Throw
-Instead of straight bonuses, you can add an equal amount of weapon enhancements to your arrows; makes for much more toolboxy approach, just the way I feel Arcane Archer would work: "Which arrow would serve me the best in this sitiuation?"

That would make it incredibly fun to play as you've got tons of versatility with all the different Weapon Enhancements you can use and all the Imbue Arrow-options. 3/4th Caster could be better, but ½ keeps it on the safe side. I'd also expand the skill list to include at least Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Spellcraft and Concentration. I'd probably also toss in Tumble, Climb, Swim and Handle Animal, since they have really 'Arcane Ranger'-flavour to them, or at the very least they're very nature-y, so they should have a similar skill list.

The present list is pathetically short and basically forces you to take Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Listen and Hide simply because the other skills are totally worthless. Wizard going into Arcane Archer has something like 10 skillpoints per level and can't continue any of his Knowledges and so on.

Worira
2008-03-03, 11:55 PM
I doubt I'd ever take more than two levels in arcane archer. Imbue arrow though, that offers all sorts of interesting possibilites - want to fireball someone at extreme range, you can.

The prerequisites are kind of annoying though. The main people interested in this class would be casters, but casters wouldn't be spending their feats on the various archery feats required to take this prestige class. A bard might take them, but a bard wouldn't get as much benefit from this prestige class.

How often do you really need to throw a fireball more than 1200 (or 2400, with enlarge spell)? And how are you firing an arrow that far anyway?

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 12:36 AM
How often do you really need to throw a fireball more than 1200 (or 2400, with enlarge spell)? And how are you firing an arrow that far anyway?Never. How often do you need a fireball in the first place? Imbue Arrow is for spells like Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic.

And a composite longbow from a character with Farshot will shoot 2200 feet. With some heavy optimization it ends up much much higher, though.

Eldariel
2008-03-04, 12:52 AM
Don't forget that you get an arrow's worth of extra damage to anything, which is a nice bonus with a heavily enhanced bow, enhanced arrows, pumped Strength and any potential damage-enhancing abilities you've got. You can fire Anti-Magic Field with a little insult to the injury, or you can shoot a solid fog with some longterm effect on the arrow or some such. Point being, dealing ~25-30 damage with every spell you cast is always a nice addition if it comes for free.

rockdeworld
2008-03-16, 02:38 AM
Yea, that works. I personally like the fix I posted on the other page:
-½ spellcasting progression
-Abilities usable ½ class levels/day
-Arrow of Death has Primary Casting Stat+Class Level+10 Saving Throw
-Instead of straight bonuses, you can add an equal amount of weapon enhancements to your arrows; makes for much more toolboxy approach, just the way I feel Arcane Archer would work: "Which arrow would serve me the best in this sitiuation?"

That would make it incredibly fun to play as you've got tons of versatility with all the different Weapon Enhancements you can use and all the Imbue Arrow-options. 3/4th Caster could be better, but ½ keeps it on the safe side. I'd also expand the skill list to include at least Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Spellcraft and Concentration. I'd probably also toss in Tumble, Climb, Swim and Handle Animal, since they have really 'Arcane Ranger'-flavour to them, or at the very least they're very nature-y, so they should have a similar skill list.

The present list is pathetically short and basically forces you to take Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Listen and Hide simply because the other skills are totally worthless. Wizard going into Arcane Archer has something like 10 skillpoints per level and can't continue any of his Knowledges and so on.
(:smallredface: Sorry if this is a "dead" topic, I found it via the search function)

I want to make a good Arcane Archer build for a campaign I'm going to run, but it looks like it's going to be impossible without a bit of houseruling. I like your build, Eladriel, since it does basically the same things I was thinking of, but... Well, what do you guys think of this?

Arcane Archer
Hit Die
d8

Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race
Elf or half-elf.

Base Attack Bonus
+5.

Feats
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).

Spells
Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are the class skill lists from the Arcane Archer's previous classes. In addition, the arcane archer gains Concentration (Con), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis) if she didn't have them before.

Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.

This is where two of my ideas diverge. One is more mundane, based on the Eldritch Knight. The other leans more towards what the Arcane Archer can already do.

The "Eldritch Knight" Arcane Archer
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and medium armor.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 1st level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Enhance Arrow (Su)*
At 2nd level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus, or a special ability of the same price. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 2nd level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 2nd level, +2 at 4th level, +3 at 6th level, +4 at 8th level, and +5 at 10th level). The bonuses applied through Enhance Arrow can be spent on any number of special abilities so long as the total bonus from special abilities and enhancements combined does not exceed the total bonus the arcane archer would receive anyway (i.e. a 4th level arcane archer can fire a +2 arrow, a +1 flaming arrow, or a holy arrow, but not a +1 holy arrow or any other arrangement of bonuses and abilities that would exceed a +2 modifier). These special abilities (if any) must be chosen before making an attack roll.

Spells per Day
From 2nd level on, when a new arcane archer level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of eldritch knight to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an arcane archer, she must decide to which class she adds each level of arcane archer for the purpose of determining spells per day.

{table]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Imbue Arrow|
2nd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Enhance Arrow +1|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3| |+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Enhance arrow +2|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4| |+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th|+6|+5|+2|+5|Enhance arrow +3|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th|+7|+5|+2|+5| |+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th|+8|+6|+2|+6|Enhance arrow +4|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th|+9|+6|+3|+6| |+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th|+10|+7|+3|+7|Enhance arrow +5|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class[/table]

*Note: this version of Enhance Arrow removes the need for seeker arrows (and to some extent, phase arrows) because seeking and brilliant energy are both special abilities that can be applied to magic weapons at +1 and +4 bonuses, respectively.


The "Fixed" Arcane Archer
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and medium armor.

Enhance Arrow (Su)
At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 magic bonus, or a special ability of the same price in enhancement bonuses (bonuses are on a one-to-one ratio). Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level). The bonuses applied through Enhance Arrow can be spent on any number of special abilities so long as the total bonus from special abilities and enhancements combined does not exceed the total magic bonus the arcane archer would receive anyway (i.e. a 4th level arcane archer can fire a +2 arrow, a +1 flaming arrow, or a holy arrow, but not a +1 holy arrow or any other arrangement of bonuses that would exceed a +2 modifier). These special abilities (if any) must be chosen before making an attack roll.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Channel Arrow (Sp)
At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a "touch attack" spell upon an arrow and deliver the spell through a ranged attack. When the arrow is fired and successfully hits a target, the spell is activated on the target as though the arcane archer herself had cast it from the correct range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Phase Arrow (Sp)
At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. An arcane archer can not use Enhance Arrow to add special abilities to a phase arrow, however she still gains the magic bonus of Enhance arrow.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

Hail of Arrows (Sp)
In lieu of her regular attacks, an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

If the arcane archer uses Enhance Arrow to apply a special ability to her arrows, she must apply the same special abilities to all arrows.

Arrow of Death (Sp)
At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the arcane archer's class level + the arcane archer's primary spellcasting ability modifier) or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

{table]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Enhance Arrow +1|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Imbue Arrow|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Enhance arrow +2|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Channel Arrow|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Enhance arrow +3|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th|+6|+5|+2|+5|Phase Arrow|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th|+7|+5|+2|+5|Enhance arrow +4|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
8th|+8|+6|+2|+6|Hail of Arrows|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th|+9|+6|+3|+6|Enhance arrow +5|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th|+10|+7|+3|+7|Arrow of Death|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class[/table]


Things I wonder about:
-Armored Mage. It would be a good ability to add to the arcane archer, but it seems to me that the archer doesn't really need it because of the versatility offered through the improved Enhance Arrow. On the other hand, the archer's arcane casting progression would seem to imply that the arcane archer will be casting more - to which armor failure is a great impediment.
-Shield proficiency. Why the heck would any archer need shield proficiency when they use a bow [a two-handed weapon]? A shield provides no benefit to a character using a two-handed weapon (and not using the shield), and an archer isn't supposed to be close enough to need a shield anyway.

Eldariel
2008-03-16, 06:23 AM
That Eldritch Archer is a solid option, more powerful than Eldritch Knight, but not quite as strong as e.g. Abjurant Champion. Still, it's very high in power level; once you start enhancing the base abilities of the class AND giving it almost full casting progression along with full BAB, you'll have to be careful not to overpower it.

The latter version is blatantly overpowered; full casting, full BAB, two good saves, d10 hit die and a powerful ability on every level is just plain über. For that build, I'd suggest at most ½ CL progression, or maybe Swiftblade progression (None/+1/+1/None/+1/+1/None/+1/+1/None). Actually, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is probably a good parallel as it's a very powerful class with bunch of strong abilities and both, full BAB and high casting, so I'd go with Blade-stats.


Shield proficiency is unneeded, since the character probably gets it from Fighter or similar. It's useful for Improved Buckler Defense and Animated Shields though.

Armored Mage could be flavourful and rather trivial as you can pick it up from a level of Spellsword anyways.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-16, 08:29 AM
I doubt I'd ever take more than two levels in arcane archer. Imbue arrow though, that offers all sorts of interesting possibilites - want to fireball someone at extreme range, you can.

The prerequisites are kind of annoying though. The main people interested in this class would be casters, but casters wouldn't be spending their feats on the various archery feats required to take this prestige class. A bard might take them, but a bard wouldn't get as much benefit from this prestige class.

I thought Fireball already had a long range....

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-16, 08:35 AM
Arcane Archer is made even more useless by the Smiting Spell feat (PHB2, I think), which lets you use arrows to deliver touch spells. Fighter/Sorcerer/Eldricht Knight with the Smiting Spell feat.

rockdeworld
2008-03-16, 12:41 PM
That Eldritch Archer is a solid option, more powerful than Eldritch Knight, but not quite as strong as e.g. Abjurant Champion. Still, it's very high in power level; once you start enhancing the base abilities of the class AND giving it almost full casting progression along with full BAB, you'll have to be careful not to overpower it.

The latter version is blatantly overpowered; full casting, full BAB, two good saves, d10 hit die and a powerful ability on every level is just plain über. For that build, I'd suggest at most ½ CL progression, or maybe Swiftblade progression (None/+1/+1/None/+1/+1/None/+1/+1/None). Actually, Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is probably a good parallel as it's a very powerful class with bunch of strong abilities and both, full BAB and high casting, so I'd go with Blade-stats.


Shield proficiency is unneeded, since the character probably gets it from Fighter or similar. It's useful for Improved Buckler Defense and Animated Shields though.

Armored Mage could be flavourful and rather trivial as you can pick it up from a level of Spellsword anyways.
I like the swiftblade casting progression, since that would give a level 10 (or rather 9) arcane archer access to level 6 spells like Antimagic Field, provided the arcane casting class was wizard or sorcerer, and it also turns off the AA class to pure arcane casters (like "Batman") by losing 4 spell levels.

Q: Considering the abilities granted to an "Eldritch Archer" (as you aptly named it), how important are the AA's other abilities? By this I mean: how much additional worth do phase arrow, hail of arrows, arrow of death, and even channel arrow give to the AA?

I think the Eldritch Archer is a plausible option, but I like the AA's other abilities as well, especially Hail of Arrows, because with the right setup (high ground, for example, or under a seige), Hail of Arrows works great. In light of this, what would be a good way to tone down those abilities so they aren't overpowered? In my first version, a phase arrow was not an enhanced arrow, should I should go back to that?

How does this "Fixed" AA look? (changes in bold italics)

Fixed Arcane Archer
Hit Die
d8

Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race
Elf or half-elf.

Base Attack Bonus
+5.

Feats
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).

Spells
Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are the class skill lists from the Arcane Archer's previous classes. In addition, the arcane archer gains Concentration (Con), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis) if she didn't have them before.

Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
An arcane archer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and medium armor.

Spells per Day
At each level indicated on the arcane archer table (2,3,5,6,8,9), the arcane archer gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of arcane archer to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an arcane archer, she must decide to which class she adds each level of arcane archer for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Enhance Arrow (Su)
At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus, or a special ability of the same price. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).

The bonuses applied through Enhance Arrow can be spent on any number of special abilities so long as the total bonus from special abilities and enhancements combined does not exceed the total bonus the arcane archer would receive anyway (i.e. a 4th level arcane archer can fire a +2 arrow, a +1 flaming arrow, or a holy arrow, but not a +1 holy arrow or any other arrangement of bonuses and abilities that would exceed a +2 modifier). These special abilities (if any) must be chosen before making an attack roll.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Channel Arrow (Sp)
At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a "touch attack" spell upon an arrow and deliver the spell through a ranged attack. When the arrow is fired and successfully hits a target, the spell is activated on the target as though the arcane archer herself had cast it from the correct range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Phase Arrow (Sp)
At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. An arcane archer can not use Enhance Arrow to add special abilities to a phase arrow, however she still gains the enhancement bonus from Enhance Arrow.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

Hail of Arrows (Sp)
In lieu of her regular attacks, an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

If the arcane archer uses Enhance Arrow to apply a special ability to her arrows, she must apply the same special abilities to all arrows.

Arrow of Death (Sp)
At 10th level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the arcane archer's class level + the arcane archer's primary spellcasting ability modifier) or be slain immediately. It takes one day to make an arrow of death, and the arrow only functions for the arcane archer who created it. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

{table]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spells per Day
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Enhance Arrow +1 | --
2nd | +2 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Imbue Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Enhance arrow +2 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Channel Arrow | --
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Enhance arrow +3 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
6th | +6 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Phase Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7th | +7 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Enhance arrow +4 | --
8th | +8 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Hail of Arrows | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9th | +9 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Enhance arrow +5 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
10th | +10 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Arrow of Death | --[/table]

Edit: Actually, I think I'll make this a topic to get more replies input.

Eldariel
2008-03-17, 10:30 AM
I'd probably allow Phase Arrow to be enhanced as per normal, because where's the fun in being able to fire one really accurate arrow only to deal 1d8+5 damage? Being able to pump up the arrow with a variety of enhancements is really the whole point of the class, so trading your flurry of attacks for one really accurate attack better have payoff beyond the attack being super accurate. You're already giving up Imbue Arrow and Channel Arrow when using this, which I think is a drawback enough. Also, Phase Arrow should be a Su. There's nothing Spell-Like about it, it's pretty much the same as Enhance Arrow.

Hail of Arrows without any limitation is a bit broken as it's 'in lieu of her normal attacks', so effectively, as I read it, you can just do normal attacks plus a full Hail of Arrows every turn. Feels like it should be a Standard Action, like Manyshot and Greater Manyshot. Also, I really love Hail of Arrows and would rather see it in the class. The class feels pretty bland if it just has one scaling damage. I'm never playing an Eldritch Knight just 'cause it does nothing. Also, since Arcane Archer is also an Archer, it may be worth it to make this an 'Ex'-ability to give an AA something that isn't reliant on Magic. I mean, it makes sense that she masters her weapon better over time too. I'd also drop Hail of Arrows to level 6 moving Phase Arrow up to level 8, since Hail of Arrows is a scaling ability and thus it makes sense to get it pretty early so that the scaling actually feels.

Capstone needs to be more kickass. There's little reason to lose a caster level just to get another Save or Die, albeit a level 10 one (DC-wise). Maybe make Arrow of Death available on level 1 with the DC scaling as you go up in the class levels? I was thinking of a capstone that would let you combine Phase Arrow with Imbue Arrow/Channel Arrow or the ability to place two spells on an arrow with Imbue Arrow/Channel Arrow or even the ability to combine the two into one round attack. Just something that kicks as much ass as the super-Time Stop of Swiftblade. Extra actions and generally enhancements to some powerful class features seem like the best way to go about it.

Also, I think you should somehow restrict Enhance Arrow to applying the same enhancements to every arrow you shoot in one turn; I think the idea that an Arcane Archer could enhance 5 arrows separately on the flight feels a bit stupid; makes more sense to have to use the same enhancement for each attack done during the same Attack Action. That also opens up the option of using different enhancements if you attack with multiple different Actions in a turn, which again makes perfect sense as it's a separate attack and thus you can apply a new enhancement to that bunch. Also, I think you should make it so you can only make your bow Bane against a Favored Enemy or something, since else it'll be ridiculously overpowered as you get +2 and +2d6 for +1 enhancement every shot. Also, Elves have lots of classes that grant Favored Enemies, so it would synergize with Rangers, Deepwood Stalkers and such that otherwise have no synergy whatsoever with Arcane Archer even though they're the archetypal Elven Archers. Finally, note that 'Evil' isn't a viable Bane-type so even if you pick up Favored Enemy: Arcanists or Evil, you cannot use Bane against those wide creature types, making it further fitting and working by the intention.

That skill system seems interesting, but I think it's a bit too unconventional to add only to a single class; if you reworked the entire skill system, that could fly, but as it stands, I think going traditional would be the best. I made a list of what I think should be class skills for an Arcane Archer in this thread, I think you could just go ahead and use that as it's pretty comprehensive. May be you'd want to give 6+Int skill points too, since Arcane Archers are pretty skilled (although for an Int-based character, that's pretty high; still, I don't see Unseen Seers causing issues either).


The rest looks about right; I really like the increased prerequisites for the character. It's an interesting choice now, whether to take two Fighter-levels to qualify on level 8 or whether to wait it out and qualify on level 10 with full Wizard-progression, or to use some higher BAB Arcane classes such as Bard (qualifies on level 7). I'd consider dropping it to +4 BAB though as level 10 qualification for straight Wizard is really late and +5 really just favors Bards which shouldn't be the principal AAs over Fighter/Wizards as per flavour.

I'd probably drop the proficiencies and make Bow Proficiency a prerequisite; most Gish-classes don't grant proficiencies, but simply expect you to have them already or live without 'em (of course, for an Elf-only class, Bow Proficiency isn't much of an issue, but there're few unconventional Elves along with Half-Elves that don't qualify, so I think it's worth including - I'd add 'Proficiency with any Straight Bow and Weapon Focus in the same Weapon'; that'd make Greatbow an option too). Give Light Armor Proficiency if you give the character Armored Mage, but otherwise they don't make sense as you can't wear armor anyways.

I much prefer this to Eldritch Archer; I don't like plain classes and this guy has lots of interesting abilities, especially if we add the few I discussed up here.


EDIT: Oh yeah, I think Reflex and Will should be the high saves. It's weaker than having Fort and Will as the high saves, but makes more sense as we're talking about an Archer and therefore Reflex is the more natural of the two saves. Will is a given since it's Arcane and all. In fact, the fact that the normal AA doesn't advance Will just staggers me; there aren't words to describe the folly of that.

EDIT#2: My suggested changes would result in (changes from your build in Italics):

Arcane Archer Redux

Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Elf. [Half-Elf is redundant to mention. They automatically qualify if Elves do.]
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Craft (Bowmaking) 8 ranks.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any straight bow the character is proficient with).
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with at least one straight bow. (straight bows are Shortbow, Longbow, Greatbow and similar weapons)
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Class Skills
The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level
6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the arcane archer prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An arcane archer gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor.

Spells per Day: At each level indicated on the arcane archer table, the arcane archer gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of arcane archer to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an arcane archer, she must decide to which class she adds each level of arcane archer for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Enhance Arrow (Su)
At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus, or a special ability of the same price. Unlike magic weapons created by normal means, the archer need not spend experience points or gold pieces to accomplish this task. However, an archer’s magic arrows only function for her. For every two levels the character advances past 1st level in the prestige class, the magic arrows she creates gain +1 greater potency (+1 at 1st level, +2 at 3rd level, +3 at 5th level, +4 at 7th level, and +5 at 9th level).

The bonuses applied through Enhance Arrow can be spent on any number of special abilities, with the exception of Bane, so long as the total bonus from special abilities and enhancements combined does not exceed the total bonus the arcane archer would receive anyway (i.e. a 4th level arcane archer can fire a +2 arrow, a +1 flaming arrow, or a holy arrow, but not a +1 holy arrow or any other arrangement of bonuses and abilities that would exceed a +2 modifier). These special abilities, if any, must be chosen before making an attack roll, but after bow's enhancements, if any, have been bestown upon the arrow. Essentially, this means that if the arcane archer possesses a bow with an enhancement, she need not add +1 first to her arrows as per normal for making Magic Items.

If the arcane archer is making an Attack Action involving launching multiple arrows, she must use the same enhancements for all the arrows fired. She doesn't have the time to enhance each arrow separately.

An arcane archer can add Bane-property only against creature types that are her favored enemies. If an arcane archer has no favored enemies, she cannot use Enhance Arrow to add Bane-propery upon her arrows. The favored enemy must correspond to the group covered by the Bane Arrow. This makes Bane: Humanoid (Orc) a legal option while Bane: Evil cannot be made even if the character possesses Favored Enemy: Evil. If an Arcane Archer has Favored Enemy: Arcanists, she can make her arrows Magebane.

Arrow of Death (Sp)
At 1st level, an arcane archer can create an arrow of death that forces the target, if damaged by the arrow’s attack, to make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the arcane archer's class level + the arcane archer's primary spellcasting ability modifier) or be slain immediately. An arcane archer must make the appropriate Craft (Bowmaking) checks herself to fletch the arrow. Treat arrow of death as an item with a base sp cost of 1000 and a craft DC of 25. The arcane archer need not perform the other parts involved in item creation. The arrow of death lasts no longer than one year, and the archer can only have one such arrow in existence at a time.

Fletching (Su)
At 1st level, an arcane archer gains the ability to create magic arrows (and only arrows) with an enchantment bonus equal to half her class level rounded up, and an effective enhancement bonus equal to her class level, as if she possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and met all other requirements for the arrow she wishes to make.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Improved Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a "touch attack" spell upon an arrow and deliver the spell through a ranged attack. When the arrow is fired and successfully hits a target, the spell is activated on the target as though the arcane archer herself had cast it from the correct range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Master Fletcher (Ex)
Any masterwork arrows crafted by an arcane archer of 5th level or higher are so finely made that they grant a +1 competence bonus to damage dealt with them. At level 10, this bonus increases to +2.

Hail of Arrows (Ex)
As a Standard Action, an arcane archer of 6th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target within range, to a maximum of one target for every arcane archer level she has earned. Each attack uses the archer’s primary attack bonus, and each enemy may only be targeted by a single arrow.

Phase Arrow (Su)
At 8th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow at a target known to her within range, and the arrow travels to the target in a straight path, passing through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. (Any magical barrier stops the arrow.) This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally.

Using this ability is a standard action (and shooting the arrow is part of the action).

Greater Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 10th level, an arcane archer improves her ability to imbue spells upon her arrows. When an arcane archer is using her Imbue Arrow-abilities, she can expend one use of this ability to imbue another area spell, or a spell involving "Touch Attack". Effectively, she can use a Standard Action to fire an arrow containing two spell triggers.

An arcane archer has uses of this ability equal to half her arcane archer class levels rounded up per day.

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spells per Day
1 | +1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Enhance Arrow +1, Arrow of Death, Fletching | --
2 | +2 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Imbue Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Enhance Arrow +2 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Improved Imbue Arrow | --
5 | +5 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Enhance Arrow +3, Master Fletcher +1 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
6 | +6 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Hail of Arrows | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
7 | +7 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Enhance Arrow +4 | --
8 | +8 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Phase Arrow | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
9 | +9 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Enhance Arrow +5 | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
10 | +10 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Greater Imbue Arrow, Master Fletcher +2 | --[/table]


These changes should represent her flavour as a bow expert better, giving her the option to make arrows too (with higher enhancement bonus) with an iron price, and making the Craft-skill actually come in handy (with Arrow of Death; maybe AAs will bother making few Masterwork Arrows while at it). Also, since the character now has so many progressive abilities along with a powerful (free action Quicken 5/day) capstone, people are more inclined to take it even at the cost of level 9 spells. Fletching should also help with the flavour and since she's going to be damn short on feats, on everything else too. Also, the Arcane Archer is now very skilled and has fine synergy with Wizard, Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer, Fighter and a couple of prestiges, so I think this is pretty bueno.

Evasion and Armored Mage are possible additions, but that's as far as I'd be willing to go with additional abilities. I think this build feels pretty right. I changed the name of Channel Arrow to Improved Imbue Arrow to make the abilities easier to write up and to make the final ability have a sensible name. Not to mention, Imbuing Touch-spells makes at least as much sense as imbuing Area-spells; channeling would really mean that the arrow touches you and the opponent and you cast a spell through it while here you slam the spell on the arrow and it flies, flies and flies.

rockdeworld
2008-03-18, 07:11 PM
I don't know about Fletching, it seems like a weird ability. If I understand it right, the AA can create magic arrows like with the feat, and they gain an enhancement equal to double the enhancement they're crafted with. The crafting itself looks ok, except that it takes 1 day per +1 enhancement to craft arrows, right?

Then the Improved Fletching gives each arrow a +1 to damage, so a fletched +1 arrow would deal +2 damage.

Since we're well into the "Fixed" stage, why not continue this in this threadhttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4068781#post4068781?