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Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 06:03 PM
While we all know why wizards, druids, and clerics are broken, I see the artificer constantly mentioned as being the most broken class and archivists as being second (or rarely lower, but always in the top 5). My question is, why?

I looked at the Archivist and noticed that he can use all divine spells (which is pretty broken right there), but his BaB is significantly lower than that of a cleric and he seems to lack the turning ability necessary to pull off DMM cheese. While it seems like he'd be able to be a CoDzilla fairly effectively, he has lower HD and his primary caster stat doesn't give him bonus spells (unless that has been errataed somewhere). While his spell list alone makes him broken, why is he more broken than clerics and druids? Because he can combine their spell lists? Is that worth the loss of the ability to use DMM cheese or the various crazy druid class special abilities?

The artificer is a bit harier; I have no real basis of comparison at all for them, because while I've never seen an archivist, at least I've seen his spell lists; I've never seen the artificer's spell list in actual play before. And while a number of his spells seem pretty nutty (the spell item ability, for instance, seems like it could be kind of gross at times as the XP cost is pretty inconsequential) I'm not exactly sure what makes him the most broken class in the game.

So, if people would be so good as to explain them to me, I'd be happy. It isn't that I doubt it (I can see some crazy stuff with the artificer) as I'd probably end up spending hours playing around with them to figure it out, whereas I could just ask.

Nebo_
2008-03-03, 06:15 PM
The Archivist doesn't just cast from the Cleric list. You have access to every divine spell in the game, including Divine Bard and Domain spells. A dip into Sacred Exorcist gives you the turning you need for DMM and Contemplative gives you domains you need.

Artificers are even worse. They can make scrolls of every spell, at their lowest levels, and their metamagic is far, far too easy.

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 06:18 PM
I assume we already know that Full Caster = Win, so we can just skip that part and go to why these particular full casters are so good.

Archivist is basically a Divine Wizard...with twice the spell selection. See, all the Domain-spells, Anyspelled Scrolls and such make just about any spell available as a Divine spell, so actually, Archivist has just about all Arcane- and Divine spells at his disposal. A quick dip in Sacred Exorcist requires nothing, costs no caster levels and gives you the turning, so you'll only lack it for the first few levels when you won't have the feats to use it anyways, and around midlevels, you'll be a Cleric with Wizard+Cleric+Druid+Paladin+Ranger+Wu Jen+Bard-spells.

As far as Artificer goes, it's a class whose main ability is derived off a skill check. As everyone knows, skills are ridiculously easy to raise to totally ludicrous numbers, so it's bad. In other words, Artificer doesn't require any spells to craft items, so an artificer has no real issues making just about any item in the game. Oh yeah, and he gets a +2 Caster Levels to the crafting crap to boot so he can be making Scrolls of level 3 spells on level 3 and so on. Basically, Artificer is already one level ahead in what he can make. And that's without even going to his class abilities like Infusions, Trapfinding. In other words you have a +2 Level Caster Trap Monkey With Medium BAB And High Charisma. In other words, Artificer is the Trapfinder, the Face, both Casters and a decent Meat (especially since you have access to all spells you could ever want through scrolls, wands and so on to pimp your abilities). Oh yeah and it gets bonus feats every 4 levels, which is more than Wizard, in addition to getting all X Creation-feats for free. Then there's the level 11 Incantatrix-type 'apply Metamagic to Spell Completion Items With Skill Checks'.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-03, 06:19 PM
DMM? Who needs DMM?

Archivist + Incantatrix. Just make a Spellcraft check to negate the extra spell levels. Cheeze away.

SilverClawShift
2008-03-03, 06:26 PM
I looked at the Archivist and noticed that he can use all divine spells (which is pretty broken right there)

Not only all divine spells, but domain spells as well (which are often arcane. The right combination of domains will get you a sick spell list). The archivist is overwhelming for the same reasons the wizard is, summed up as: "What do we need me to do?"



I've never seen the artificer's spell list in actual play before.

The artificer doesn't have a spell list. That's their problem. They have the ABILITY to create items as if they could cast any spell. They can scribe you a scroll of any spell. They can brew you any potion. They can make a wand that casts anything.
They have EVERY spell list.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 06:28 PM
I assume we already know that Full Caster = Win, so we can just skip that part and go to why these particular full casters are so good.

Archivist is basically a Divine Wizard...with twice the spell selection. See, all the Domain-spells, Anyspelled Scrolls and such make just about any spell available as a Divine spell, so actually, Archivist has just about all Arcane- and Divine spells at his disposal. A quick dip in Sacred Exorcist requires nothing, costs no caster levels and gives you the turning, so you'll only lack it for the first few levels when you won't have the feats to use it anyways, and around midlevels, you'll be a Cleric with Wizard+Cleric+Druid+Paladin+Ranger+Wu Jen+Bard-spells.

I do not know what Anyspelled scrolls are; what book are they from and/or can you give me a brief explanation? I assume they allow anyone to cast them, but I don't really know what they are.

But yes, the domain spells certainly expand his options (something I had thought of) but I didn't think a lot of the wizard spells (particularly the offensive ones at higher levels) were available via domains, though I suppose there are an awful lot of domains I know nothing about.


As far as Artificer goes, it's a class whose main ability is derived off a skill check. As everyone knows, skills are ridiculously easy to raise to totally ludicrous numbers, so it's bad. In other words, Artificer doesn't require any spells to craft items, so an artificer has no real issues making just about any item in the game. Oh yeah, and he gets a +2 Caster Levels to the crafting crap to boot so he can be making Scrolls of level 3 spells on level 3 and so on. Basically, Artificer is already one level ahead in what he can make. And that's without even going to his class abilities like Infusions, Trapfinding. In other words you have a +2 Level Caster Trap Monkey With Medium BAB And High Charisma. In other words, Artificer is the Trapfinder, the Face, both Casters and a decent Meat (especially since you have access to all spells you could ever want through scrolls, wands and so on to pimp your abilities). Oh yeah and it gets bonus feats every 4 levels, which is more than Wizard, in addition to getting all X Creation-feats for free. Then there's the level 11 Incantatrix-type 'apply Metamagic to Spell Completion Items With Skill Checks'.

So basically they craft a million scrolls to act as casters, while using their cheesy spells to buff very well and fulfill a lot of party roles? I can see why that might cause problems, even if they do end up behind everyone else a bit xp-wise.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-03, 06:35 PM
So basically they craft a million scrolls to act as casters, while using their cheesy spells to buff very well and fulfill a lot of party roles? I can see why that might cause problems, even if they do end up behind everyone else a bit xp-wise.

If only. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=695040)

Also, an unattended, unrestricted artificer can and will turn everything that s/he sees into crafting XP, while using fabricate for a steady gold supply.

SilverClawShift
2008-03-03, 06:35 PM
even if they do end up behind everyone else a bit xp-wise.

They have XP reserves which can only be used for crafting, which admittedly will run out at some point.

Except it doesn't have to. The artificer also has the ability to disassemble existing magical items to strip the XP out of them, filling their crafting reserve back up and essentially letting them spend some gold to turn whatever you have into whatever you actually needed.

As far as I recall, they can strip the XP out of scrolls or potions, as well as more heavy-duty stuffs.

Greenfaun
2008-03-03, 06:36 PM
I think the question's been answered, but just to clarify one point:

The archivist is a heinous full-caster, but is still limited by the casting mechanics (which are still better than any of the non-caster classes get, of course)

The artificer, on the other hand, can function like a full-caster 2 caster levels HIGHER than its own level (or more, in some ways) by cheesing a skill check and spending money. Not even that much money. Since getting the most out of your actions in a turn are paramount, even having to spend money isn't much of a deterrent when you get to break the game.

What's more, if the DM reduces WBL it still hurts everyone else more than the artificer, because the artificer can craft his/her own EVERYTHING. On top of that, they get infusions, free crafting feats, free bonus feats, and are as capable in combat as a cleric.

It's not immediately obvious reading the class, but if you can penetrate the somewhat confusing maze of class features and notice that all that stands between you and uberness is your bonus to UMD, then you can pwn as many encounters as your DM will let you craft scrolls, wands and staffs for.

Which is too bad, because I still think the artificer would be an interesting class if it worked as it seems to have been intended.

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 06:42 PM
I do not know what Anyspelled scrolls are; what book are they from and/or can you give me a brief explanation? I assume they allow anyone to cast them, but I don't really know what they are.

But yes, the domain spells certainly expand his options (something I had thought of) but I didn't think a lot of the wizard spells (particularly the offensive ones at higher levels) were available via domains, though I suppose there are an awful lot of domains I know nothing about.

Anyspell is a spell from Forgotten Realms, so it's only relevant for that, but basically, Greater Anyspell allows you to prepare any Wizard's spell of 5th level or lower as a Divine spell, so all Wizard's spell of those lower levels are fully available to Archivist. Even without Anyspell in the world (non-Forgotten Realms settings), all the Domains (and trust me, there's a LOT of them in just about any splatbooked environment, and seeing that Heroes of Horror is a splatbook, you'll have splats if you have Archivist) make just about any spell worth casting available (Shapechange, Gate, Time Stop, Prismatic Sphere, Moment of Prescience, Celerities, Giant Size, etc. are all Domain-spells). Then there's Divine Bard too, which basically makes all Bard-spells Divine. Basically, they have all Divine spells (EVERY Divine caster, and there's a lot), plus every Arcane spell really worth casting. There's really nothing else to it. Whatever you want them to do, they will.


So basically they craft a million scrolls to act as casters, while using their cheesy spells to buff very well and fulfill a lot of party roles? I can see why that might cause problems, even if they do end up behind everyone else a bit xp-wise.

I guess I forgot to mention, they also have that Craft Reserve so their first few crafts on every level won't cost them any XP. Also, if they're a level lower than the rest of the party, they'll get more XP to quickly make up for it. Also, they're still making spells a level higher than the group's real casters can.

So yea, Artificer has every spell in the game, it can get them earlier than any other class in the game and it has Incantatrix's (possibly the most broken Prestige Class out there; up there with Planar Shepherd) most frightening ability built in to a base class. Their Metamagic is just a Use Magic Device-check from level 11 onwards. And they'll never fail.

SilverClawShift
2008-03-03, 06:46 PM
Artificers are okay, really, depending. Almost any class can be twisted into a game breaker with the right amount of effort. It's on the player to actually "color inside the lines" so to speak, and not veer wildly off the path of the campaign.

An artificer who knows he could be ridiculous by thumbing through a stack of books for 17 hours is responsible for not purposely exploiting the game so hard that it ceases to be fun for all involved.

A DM who knows an artificer is in the party, and knows what they're capable of, is responsible for staying on his toes and keeping tabs on what the group is doing, and on what he's throwing at them, and how often he's attacking them.

We use artificers in our group sometimes.

There's a difference between theoretical system exploitation, and actual gameplay at the table.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-03, 06:48 PM
What's more, if the DM reduces WBL it still hurts everyone else more than the artificer, because the artificer can craft his/her own EVERYTHING. On top of that, they get infusions, free crafting feats, free bonus feats, and are as capable in combat as a cleric.

Don't forget the potential problems too, with denying them time to work. Either they use a dedicated wright (OBJECTION!), or be a warforged, and craft while everyone else sleeps. If you then wake them up, then the casters can't prepare.


Which is too bad, because I still think the artificer would be an interesting class if it worked as it seems to have been intended.

The infusions list is really awesome, in my opinion. There's a dragonmarked PrC that uses it, but otherwise, it's limited to them.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-03, 06:52 PM
Artificers are okay, really, depending. Almost any class can be twisted into a game breaker with the right amount of effort. It's on the player to actually "color inside the lines" so to speak, and not veer wildly off the path of the campaign.

An artificer who knows he could be ridiculous by thumbing through a stack of books for 17 hours is responsible for not purposely exploiting the game so hard that it ceases to be fun for all involved.

A DM who knows an artificer is in the party, and knows what they're capable of, is responsible for staying on his toes and keeping tabs on what the group is doing, and on what he's throwing at them, and how often he's attacking them.

We use artificers in our group sometimes.

There's a difference between theoretical system exploitation, and actual gameplay at the table.

Well, if you don't let them use their primary class ability, they're going to be a lot less broken, eh? But the entire point of them is to be able to do exactly that.

I can see where it becomes problematic though - frankly, at level 3, I'm going to craft a wand of fireballs. Its well within the rules and there's nothing "wrong" with it. But I will then have the ability to cast fireball at level 3 (maximized if I so choose thanks to another spell). That's already game-breaking. Being able to cast as if two levels higher is always going to be an enormous issue, regardless of the game, and as the artificer is always paying only half-price -anyway-, he's not really hurting himself all that much.

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 06:56 PM
The principal issue of Artificer is that it's a class mostly keyed off a skill rather than class levels. Skills have been made way too easy to pimp out, so the skill requirements are very easy to meet, and since the class is designed with the skill check being the limiting factor in what you can or can't do, once you get past that little issue, you'll have practically limitless power. The easiest way to fix it is just to ban just about everything that enhances skill checks; it looks like the DCs for most skills are designed for characters without any special ways to pimp the skill out anyways, so it wouldn't even make the game unbalanced or require some special attention. But yea, the problem with Artis is that their design is based on something that's fundamentally broken (see also: Diplomancers, for what can happen when there's an insane reward for ridiculous skill checks).

That said, both can be contained in an adventure. If your campaign forces the characters to stay in motion to prevent the world from ending while they sleep, there won't be time to craft, and if divine casters just aren't especially enthusiastic about making scrolls and sharing them, most not even picking up Scribe Scroll, Archivist will suddenly feel infinitely diminished. So yea, to control an Artificer, you need to control the Craft-time and to control an Archivist, you need to control the scroll supply. If you're willing to spend great deal of time and effort to make both "fair" (and ban all cohort-related things, since Artificer having a crafter cohort or Archivist having some pimped out Cleric-cohort with Scribe Scroll just destroys any chances you've got of preventing them from being infinitely better than other classes), feel free to allow them. The other option is to modify the classes a bit to make them more in line with the rest of the game.

Project_Mayhem
2008-03-03, 07:01 PM
The arificer does have to use his actual level as spell level, which helps a bit.

In practice I agree with SilverClawShift. No DM is going to give you the months you need to craft your utility belt of scrolls in game. When wee play, theres rarely more than a week between the action, which means about 7 scrolls or one or two items.

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 07:18 PM
Artificers are okay, really, depending. Almost any class can be twisted into a game breaker with the right amount of effort. It's on the player to actually "color inside the lines" so to speak, and not veer wildly off the path of the campaign.

An artificer who knows he could be ridiculous by thumbing through a stack of books for 17 hours is responsible for not purposely exploiting the game so hard that it ceases to be fun for all involved.

A DM who knows an artificer is in the party, and knows what they're capable of, is responsible for staying on his toes and keeping tabs on what the group is doing, and on what he's throwing at them, and how often he's attacking them.

We use artificers in our group sometimes.

There's a difference between theoretical system exploitation, and actual gameplay at the table.

The real limit to an artificer is gold, experience, and crafting time. Gold prices can be mitigated with a feat that reduces the cost. Experience can be overcome with the craft reserve, draining useless items, taking warforged substitution levels, and a feat that reduces the cost. Downtime can be overcome with a Dedicated Wright homunculus and bag of holding (machine shop in yo pants!).

The only splat book you really need for the artificer to do well is the Player's Handbook, and that is usually not considered a splat book.

By burning extra charges on a wand, the artificer can freely add metamagic. Out of core, this means quicken, extend, maximize and empower. Adding in a couple splat books, we get persistent, twinned, and all those other abominations of free metamagic.

Note that this isn't all "free", since you have to be paying for it. Presumably, though, the artificer has a way to turn his share of party loot into magical materials for crafting with. Once this is restricted, the artificer does considerably less well.

streakster
2008-03-03, 07:48 PM
The real limit to an artificer is gold, experience, and crafting time. Gold prices can be mitigated with a feat that reduces the cost. Experience can be overcome with the craft reserve, draining useless items, taking warforged substitution levels, and a feat that reduces the cost. Downtime can be overcome with a Dedicated Wright homunculus and bag of holding (machine shop in yo pants!).



Also, as has been mentioned before, the experience limit disappears when you get that essence drain ability, Fabricate or a dozen other creative uses of spells will net him gold, and the Homunculus removes the time limit.

So, it's a class with three limits, all of which get removed.

PirateMonk
2008-03-03, 07:58 PM
Also, as has been mentioned before, the experience limit disappears when you get that essence drain ability, Fabricate or a dozen other creative uses of spells will net him gold, and the Homunculus removes the time limit.

So, it's a class with three limits, all of which get removed.

Technically, it's four limits that get removed, as they also need UMD.

Leon
2008-03-03, 08:19 PM
Given that the archivist has to find the Non cleric spells manually - he doesnt just get them them that limits him unless he spends a lot of time buying scrolls and such

RTGoodman
2008-03-03, 08:37 PM
Since I didn't see anyone else in the thread point it out, I think one big problem with the Archivist is that they don't change the level of spell they learn, so you can get some spells earlier than you should be able to get them. For instance, if you happen to find a scroll of it, you can be casting holy sword, a Paladin only 4th-level spell at 7th level (instead of the 14th you're supposed to be able to get it at). I could be wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure I've heard people complain about that before.


Also, I don't have a link or anything, but I seem to remember reading some thread about Artificer optimization where they managed to get the most damage-per-round out of a tricked out Artificer making use of his "free metamagic from wands" ability (whatever it's called) and two wands of an orb spell or something. Someone else can probably point out the link.

Nebo_
2008-03-03, 08:52 PM
People are mentioning Anyspell a lot. The classes can cast it, but don't get any use out of it. The spell requires you to prepare the spell in your domain slot, which archivists and artificers don't have.

Eldariel
2008-03-03, 08:55 PM
People are mentioning Anyspell a lot. The classes can cast it, but don't get any use out of it. The spell requires you to prepare the spell in your domain slot, which archivists and artificers don't have.

No, but Anyspell allows for Clerics to write divine scrolls of those spells.

Squash Monster
2008-03-03, 09:13 PM
rtg0922 brought up one of the major points about Archivist. If you know where to look, Archivist can get some spells very early. Paladins aren't that big of a problem, given how many Paladins you're going to find with Scribe Scroll. But there are others. For example, Healer gets Heal at level 5. Or, for the king of them all, the lowly Adept (yes, the NPC class) gets tons of spells that don't belong on a divine list. And it's hard to justify not being able to find Adepts. And, of course, Druids gets some really crazy spells, which the Archivist can pick up.

One of the major limiting factors of Archivist is that their bonus spells are determined by one stat, and everything else is determined by another. However, if the Archivist is an Illumian (which works great for flavor reasons too) then he can get those bonus spells from dexterity or strength instead. Both of those are far more useful, and Strength, especially, is very easy to pump.

The other limiting factor is the lack of DMM cheese, but then you notice that a dip into Sacred Exorcist fixes this.


Artificer, on the other hand...
Imagine a normal fantasy setting, with wizards and warriors and swords and plate armor. Now imagine that a guy with power armor and a plasma cannon shows up.

Artificer is this guy.

There are two classic builds for the Artificer, the "blastificer" and the "bufficer".

The first of these uses wands of lesser orb of whatever, and uses metamagic infusions to pimp them out, the way some Incantatrixes like to. However, unlike the Incantatrix, the Artificer can do this around level 7 or so. Combine this with dual wand-wielding (yes, it exists) and you can pump hundreds of damage into your target.

The second of these uses the Artificer's equivalent of DMM cheese to persist spells. This might sound only as bad as a Cleric, but there's something about Clericzilla that we usually forget to mention: he can only persist 2, maybe 3 spells per day (without stupid nightstick abuse). However, the Artificer has no such limit. And worse yet, the Artificer gets the same "any list" awesomeness that the Archivist does, except it applies to arcane lists as well. The Artificer gets to choose the lowest level version (-2) of every worthwhile buff he can find, and can have them all, all day long.

And if this isn't bad enough, consider that the same artificer can do both of these, with some portion of the same effectiveness as a specialist.

SurlySeraph
2008-03-03, 10:08 PM
The most egregious example of Artificer cheese I've seen was this (I've slightly altered it from the original):


1) Maximize Spell
3) Twin Spell
4) Empower Spell
6) Split Ray
8) Wand Mastery

Applying Maximize, Twin, Empower, and Split to a Wand makes you spend 12 charges each time you activate it.

Use a wand of Enervation. You'll shoot 4 rays (Split then Twin) each doing 4+d4*5 negative levels. That's between 20 and 28 negative levels, meaning instant death if it has less than 20 HD.

It takes 12 charges out of a wand. Wands come with 50, so you can use it 4 times a day with the same wand. 4 times a day, you have a pretty good chance at instantly killing a freaking Solar, or anything else with around 20 HD. And you're 8th level.

Artificers are more broken than Shinji Ikari.

@V: Wands of Assay Resistance: making casters even more broken since 2005.

Cuddly
2008-03-03, 10:39 PM
The most egregious example of Artificer cheese I've seen was this (I've slightly altered it from the original):



It takes 12 charges out of a wand. Wands come with 50, so you can use it 4 times a day with the same wand. 4 times a day, you have a pretty good chance at instantly killing a freaking Solar, or anything else with around 20 HD. And you're 8th level.

Artificers are more broken than Shinji Ikari.

Last I checked, Enervate had SR:Yes, which means those rays aren't going to do crap to the Solar.

But yeah, if you can convince your DM that burning through 21k items isn't a glaringly easy way to shut the cheese down (and seriously, what sane DM ever relinquishes control over magic items?), it's all sorts of gravy.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 12:27 AM
and if divine casters just aren't especially enthusiastic about making scrolls and sharing them, most not even picking up Scribe Scroll, Archivist will suddenly feel infinitely diminished.The archivist doesn't care if anyone else has Scribe Scroll, because he has it himself. Characters are allowed to collaborate on creating magic items, with each of them contributing some of the prerequisites. So an archivist can collaborate with, say, an Adept, to create a scroll of Lightning Bolt: The archivist contributes the Scribe Scroll feat, and the adept contributes the spell. The archivist can even choose to contribute the XP, so that it costs the other caster nothing but time.

Talic
2008-03-04, 03:23 AM
Artificer is hideously strong, in that they optimize an entire party's equipment.

Give them any magic item, and they can, in short order:
Break it down into XP and fabricate the physical part.
Open up a portable hole, with a couple crafting homounculi in it (Eberron)
Invest XP and feats into them for crafting
Close hole, bake for required time (while adventuring)
Open hole, pull out item. Careful, it's hot!
Profit!

greenknight
2008-03-04, 04:23 AM
There are two classic builds for the Artificer, the "blastificer" and the "bufficer".

A link to these builds can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=520855). However, some of that information is out of date. A blastificer can now use a Rod of Many Wands (Complete Mage) to use three wands at once without Two Weapon Fighting or the Double Wand Wielder feat (Complete Arcane), and the Belt of Battle (Magic Item Compendium) can replace the need for Quicken Spell. Using those items, an Artificer can be even more deadly at lower levels and with fewer feats. At a rough guess, I'd say a Blastificer could deal out around 1,000hp max damage each round using the Lesser Orb spells - at that's at around 12th level.

Aquillion
2008-03-04, 05:44 AM
Other people have gone into more detail on specific ways to exploit the artificer, but for the really really quick version:

At the cost of some gold and a tiny bit of xp (which comes, generally, from their pool or by dissassembling another magic item -- which is also just a small amount of gold, really), Artificers can use any spell available to any other class, two levels before that class can.

But that's not all. They can also use metamagic spell trigger to metamagic spells from charged items by burning charges. Or metamagic spell completion to metamagic a spell-completion item like a scroll for free (a limited number of times per day, but still.)

Their infusions (which you seem to have focused on) aren't anything special on their own, but getting them on top of some of the strongest class abilities ever printed is just absurd. And then they also get good skill points, a decent skill list, 3/4ths BAB, they can wear medium armor... you get the idea by now. There is one really good one, though -- I forget its name, but it's a first-level infusion that eventually lets you basically 'prepare' any spell of 4th level or lower in 10 minutes at the cost of a very small amount of XP. The xp cost keeps it from being overused, and of course you don't get to use it for 4th level spells until you're like level 7 or 8, but it's still absurdly powerful, since you can basically pull up any low-level spell you want outside of combat.

A few people mistakenly think that the artificer's power can be limited by keeping WBL strict (or even forcing the players below WBL.) In fact, this makes the artificer stronger, since they still get their own personal pool; if you force the party below WBL, suddenly the artificer has (relatively) a lot of inexpensive magical items they can make themselves, while everyone else has... nothing. And they can recycle magical items much more efficiently than just selling them, too, making them even more valuable in a world like that.

The Archivist is a bit different; it's more of an as-broken-as-its-allowed-to-be sort of thing (without really convoluted abuse, anyway). In general, the DM gets to decide what scrolls are available, which in turn determines how effective the archivist is.... there are various abuses, but few that you're likely to see in actual play (unlike, say, the artificer, which is horribly broken even if you play it 100% as it was intended.)

Also, a few of the commonly-repeated exploits for the Archivist don't work. Anyspell just lets you prepare an arcane spell in a divine slot; it doesn't make it a divine spell. Ditto for Alternative Source Spell. While there's an argument to be made by the exact wording that you could still scribe a divine scroll of a normally arcane spell based simply on being a member of a divine class as long as you can get access to the arcane spell from anywhere... if that's true, then you can scribe a divine scroll of an arcane spell just by getting a wizard to help you, or by satisfying the requirements through an item, or by being multiclassed (you're not doing anything differently with Anyspell, after all.) And that's silly.

...ok, maybe that wasn't so quick. So sue me.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 06:06 AM
Other people have gone into more detail on specific ways to exploit the artificer, but for the really really quick version:

At the cost of some gold and a tiny bit of xp (which comes, generally, from their pool or by dissassembling another magic item -- which is also just a small amount of gold, really), Artificers can use any spell available to any other class, two levels before that class can.

While the rest of it is pretty strong, this is, I think, what ultimately breaks the class (well, along with many magical items not being well-balanced in the first place) - the ability to be as a full caster two levels above and beyond, which allows them to become rediculous, quickly and then stay ahead forever, while simultaneously using their free crafting xp to make a bunch of powerful magic items and kill everything.

I was focusing on their spells because that is typically what maeks full casters broken, but in their cast, it made me overlook their ability to craft stuff as +2 level - I didn't even notice that insanely broken ability because I was scrutinizing their spell list.

Even something as innocent as Wand of Fireballs at 3rd level is pretty gross.

Project_Mayhem
2008-03-04, 08:34 AM
Can't make wand of fireballs before lv 7 actually. They can make caster level 3 scrolls of fireball at level three though.

namo
2008-03-04, 08:39 AM
While I agree that the Artificer's capacity to nova (i.e. expand many resources in little time to create a devastating effect) makes it a monster, I wonder how well it fares in real play. I'm talking about the Staffificer kind, like most people here (the ones that abuse wands/staffs and metamagic). Don't they burn gold way faster than they acquire it ?

Domain spells form a big chunk's of the Archivist's power. Consider Armor of Darkness (SC), Foresight-as-level-8-spell (Time domain, SC), and most of all Choose Destiny (RoD)...
And don't forget the no-save daze/stun they get at level 11 from Dark Knowledge.

senrath
2008-03-04, 09:54 AM
While I agree that the Artificer's capacity to nova (i.e. expand many resources in little time to create a devastating effect) makes it a monster, I wonder how well it fares in real play. I'm talking about the Staffificer kind, like most people here (the ones that abuse wands/staffs and metamagic). Don't they burn gold way faster than they acquire it ?


Not really. With creative use of various spells, they can often accumulate (at least from what I've seen) more gold than they can use. In a campaign I'm playing in we have a Warforged Artificer. The only thing really keeping him in line is the DM's threats to throw us up against only people/things that can use Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Personally, I kinda like the guy, since our current DM (we're working on getting a replacement) has a habit of throwing us up against things we have no right to survive (we've survived all of them, so far, thanks to some well placed cheese and our DM's inability to figure out that he doesn't have to listen to the RAW.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-04, 09:58 AM
Not really. With creative use of various spells, they can often accumulate (at least from what I've seen) more gold than they can use. In a campaign I'm playing in we have a Warforged Artificer. The only thing really keeping him in line is the DM's threats to throw us up against only people/things that can use Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Personally, I kinda like the guy, since our current DM (we're working on getting a replacement) has a habit of throwing us up against things we have no right to survive (we've survived all of them, so far, thanks to some well placed cheese and our DM's inability to figure out that he doesn't have to listen to the RAW.)Ring of Counterspell, Extra Ring, Ring of Counterspell.

Duke of URL
2008-03-04, 10:00 AM
Note that this isn't all "free", since you have to be paying for it. Presumably, though, the artificer has a way to turn his share of party loot into magical materials for crafting with. Once this is restricted, the artificer does considerably less well.

Well, not exactly. This is where the infusions list comes into play. I wont go into the details, but look at Metamagic Scroll (1st) and Metamagic Item (3rd). If you really need to save charges in a wand/rod/staff, you can pay a small XP cost to use Power Surge (3rd) to give it extra charges.

senrath
2008-03-04, 10:06 AM
Ring of Counterspell, Extra Ring, Ring of Counterspell.

First, those only work once. Second, Disjunction is a 9th level spell, which won't work with the ring.

Dr Bwaa
2008-03-04, 10:12 AM
First, those only work once. Second, Disjunction is a 9th level spell, which won't work with the ring.

Third, threat of Disjunction is a perfectly reasonable way for a DM to keep an unruly Artificer in check.

Zim
2008-03-04, 10:51 AM
I've had the opportunity to play test both classes for my gaming group and I found nothing particularly unbalanced about either class. The trick is to provide reasonable limitations on what spells are available to learn or emulate and remember the WBL limitations.

An archivist could potentially learn every divine spell in existence (kind of their mandate really), but they need to FIND them first. Just because a domain or other funky spell exists, does not mean that the archivist can get his mits on it. Secretive churches, isolationist druidic sects, and groups unfriendly to the archivist will not willingly open their library or sell scrolls. It becomes an in-game challenge to aquire them, and you appreciate them more because they were earned.

Artificers have a little more potential for abuse, but the application of a little player restraint and some common sense makes them fun to play without breaking the game. Limiting the spells the artificer can emulate to the PHB and spells that he has actually been exposed to (seen, had a chance to study, been targeted by etc) really cuts down on the cheese potential and still makes the character fun to play. Metamagic choices for wands/infused scrolls has a lot of potential for abuse, but a responsible player and DM should work together to avoid the worst expoits so that the games stays fun for everyone in the group.

The other thing to consider is money. It costs gold for an archivist to scribe spells into their book. If you want to have any reasonable amount of equipment, you need to limit your scribing. Don't forget the spellcraft checks needed to learn the spells -the chance for failure is low, but still there at lower levels.

Artificers also have to keep in mind that most of the charged/single use items that they can put their most powerful exploits into cost a fair amount of gp. Your twinned, empowered, maximized, energy admixture wand of fireballs (CL 8, +2 more for wand mastery), is only going to last you a few shots and replacing it is going to suck up a lot of your resources and time to create. You probably won't be able to do that in the middle of a dungeon either. :smallsmile:

All a smart DM needs to do to keep either character in check is to limit their time and money available to a reasonable amount.

Aquillion
2008-03-04, 12:44 PM
While the rest of it is pretty strong, this is, I think, what ultimately breaks the class (well, along with many magical items not being well-balanced in the first place) - the ability to be as a full caster two levels above and beyond, which allows them to become rediculous, quickly and then stay ahead forever, while simultaneously using their free crafting xp to make a bunch of powerful magic items and kill everything.

I was focusing on their spells because that is typically what maeks full casters broken, but in their cast, it made me overlook their ability to craft stuff as +2 level - I didn't even notice that insanely broken ability because I was scrutinizing their spell list.I don't know. While powerful, anyone can buy items if they have the gold, even two levels before you'd normally get the spell.

Their item metamagic abilities, by comparison, are something almost nobody else can do (and the people who can do similar things -- eg Incantrixes and DMM clerics -- are considered some of the most overpowered things in the game.)

Duke of URL
2008-03-04, 12:53 PM
Even something as innocent as Wand of Fireballs at 3rd level is pretty gross.

The (partially) saving grace is that the spell still casts at CL 3, not the normal CL 5 minimum, when made in that fashion -- it's still an AoE effect, but at 40% less damage than a "regular" wand of fireball.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-04, 12:57 PM
I don't know. While powerful, anyone can buy items if they have the gold, even two levels before you'd normally get the spell.

With WBL, that's not a given.

streakster
2008-03-04, 01:00 PM
All a smart DM needs to do to keep either character in check is to limit their time and money available to a reasonable amount.

Yes, and that will work well to fix them. It will require DM fiat, though - because RAW, the Artificer and Archivist can use their huge list of spells to garner obscene amounts of cash, and the Artificer can ignore time completely once he gets a Dedicated Wright. Stick one in a Portable Hole, make the checks, it does the work, you go adventuring.

So yes, they're easy to fix, but quite overpowered by RAW.

Zim
2008-03-04, 01:51 PM
With RAW, you need to keep Rule 0 in mind. This is the ultimate rule as written and cannot be argued, exploited, or ignored. If the DM feels that you are doing something that is against the spirit of fair play, then they have the right, nay obligation, to reel you in.

[edit] I guess what I'm saying is that it is up to the player and DM to play responsibly with an eye for fair play and the fun of the group. If the player is unwilling or unable to self-police, then it falls to the DM to enforce the balance.

ColdBrew
2008-03-04, 02:04 PM
Yes, and that will work well to fix them. It will require DM fiat, though - because RAW, the Artificer and Archivist can use their huge list of spells to garner obscene amounts of cash, and the Artificer can ignore time completely once he gets a Dedicated Wright. Stick one in a Portable Hole, make the checks, it does the work, you go adventuring.

So yes, they're easy to fix, but quite overpowered by RAW.

By RAW anyone can make obscene amounts of cash in any of a number of ways. The "economy" of D&D is broken out of the box. Look up the price of a cow, the price of a single casting of Flesh to Salt, and the price of a cow's weight of salt, for instance.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-04, 02:08 PM
Fabricate + 90 Cubic Feet of Alchemist Fire = A lot of money every day.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 02:12 PM
A few people mistakenly think that the artificer's power can be limited by keeping WBL strict (or even forcing the players below WBL.) In fact, this makes the artificer stronger, since they still get their own personal pool; if you force the party below WBL, suddenly the artificer has (relatively) a lot of inexpensive magical items they can make themselves, while everyone else has... nothing. And they can recycle magical items much more efficiently than just selling them, too, making them even more valuable in a world like that.

Wrong.
You enforce strictly how much material he can get his hands on for crafting the magic items. Magic items, other than draining them for xp, don't do anything towards crafting.

Believe me. I've played artificers in games where crafting was essentially turning gold into magic items, and ones where I had to purchase the magic items or search for the dragons bile myself. Without easy access to the magic materials required to craft, it's very restricting.

If you let your players use Fabricate to make magical items components, well you're just an idiotic DM.

tresson
2008-03-04, 02:12 PM
While the rest of it is pretty strong, this is, I think, what ultimately breaks the class (well, along with many magical items not being well-balanced in the first place) - the ability to be as a full caster two levels above and beyond, which allows them to become rediculous, quickly and then stay ahead forever, while simultaneously using their free crafting xp to make a bunch of powerful magic items and kill everything.

I was focusing on their spells because that is typically what maeks full casters broken, but in their cast, it made me overlook their ability to craft stuff as +2 level - I didn't even notice that insanely broken ability because I was scrutinizing their spell list.

Even something as innocent as Wand of Fireballs at 3rd level is pretty gross.

But thought that Artificers didn't get craft wand untill 9th lvl?

Zim
2008-03-04, 02:13 PM
You still need to find a buyer. Just because you can create something doesn't mean there is enough demand to sell it in a timely manner.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 02:31 PM
Can you say Union & Sigil?

Aquillion
2008-03-04, 02:31 PM
Wrong.
You enforce strictly how much material he can get his hands on for crafting the magic items. Magic items, other than draining them for xp, don't do anything towards crafting.

Believe me. I've played artificers in games where crafting was essentially turning gold into magic items, and ones where I had to purchase the magic items or search for the dragons bile myself. Without easy access to the magic materials required to craft, it's very restricting.What is this 'material' you speak of? It sounds like a most entertaining houserule! Do you have a detailed description of how it worked and how the rarity / availability of the items that are strictly needed for your to effectively utilize your central class feature, or was it just dm fiat and pulling "whatever feels right" out of their hat 24/7?

Not that I'm saying that it couldn't work, mind you; I can even see how it could be fun, with a very experienced DM who is used to working with that group of players and knows how to keep things balanced when, basically, ignoring the rulebooks and inventing things whole-cloth.

But, you know the fallacy. If your DM had to invent an entirely new 'materials availability system' on top of the existing gold-cost system, that's a pretty clear indicator that Artificers are broken.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 02:45 PM
What is this 'material' you speak of? It sounds like a most entertaining houserule! Do you have a detailed description of how it worked and how the rarity / availability of the items that are strictly needed for your to effectively utilize your central class feature, or was it just dm fiat and pulling "whatever feels right" out of their hat 24/7?

Not that I'm saying that it couldn't work, mind you; I can even see how it could be fun, with a very experienced DM who is used to working with that group of players and knows how to keep things balanced when, basically, ignoring the rulebooks and inventing things whole-cloth.

But, you know the fallacy. If your DM had to invent an entirely new 'materials availability system' on top of the existing gold-cost system, that's a pretty clear indicator that Artificers are broken.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm

Zim
2008-03-04, 02:46 PM
Can you say Union & Sigil?

Even these places will eventually hit market saturation. 90 cubic feet of alchemist's fire would certainly strain any market.

It would be fun, however, to see that much A.F. used all at once. :smallwink:

[edit] I just looked at Fabricate, and you still need to pay 1/3 the price in materials, just like a regular craft check. That means you need to find the base materials to make your 90 cu ft of alchemist's fire. :smalleek:

Draco Ignifer
2008-03-04, 03:03 PM
So, a question about this whole artificer thing... how much does a Dedicated Wright speed up crafting? Because if all it does is substitute, then you still havea wee k between every level 3 wand of fireballs you make. According to RAW, you can only make 1,000 gold worth of progress per day, no matter what - doubling or even tripling the time you work with a creature that never sleeps has zero effect on the amount of work finished in one day.

Yes, you can go do other things, but unless there's something I'm just not seeing, you're still going to only have a slow stream of neat items, rather than the assumed torrent, which doesn't sound that broken.

Indon
2008-03-04, 03:11 PM
What is this 'material' you speak of?

I imagine it's something like all the wood that spontaneously appears whenever I conjure a palisade of quarterstaves.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 04:02 PM
Do you guys not know the rules for creating magic items? Here, I'll highlight the important parts you're having trouble with. If there are any big words you don't understand, don't be embarrassed to ask


To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp and 1/25 of the base price in XP. For many items, the market price equals the base price.

Armor, shields, weapons, and items with a value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies and the experience point cost), but it does increase the final market price.

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.

The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day. But the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.

A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used and XP spent on the under-construction item are wasted.

The secrets of creating artifacts are long lost.

There.
I bolded the parts where it mentions the magic materials cost. There's also a table detailing the magic supplies cost for each type of magic item, if you care to follow the link. I recommend you do; familiarizing yourself with the rules of item would be a good idea for any discussion of artificers.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-04, 05:07 PM
Do you guys not know the rules for creating magic items? Here, I'll highlight the important parts you're having trouble with. If there are any big words you don't understand, don't be embarrassed to ask


Wow, way to start trolling on an otherwise innocent thread.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 05:31 PM
Wow, way to start trolling on an otherwise innocent thread.

I was just trying to be helpful. Please don't call names. That is against the rules.

RTGoodman
2008-03-04, 05:45 PM
... And those would be fine balancing factors, except the Artificer also gets a ton of bonus feats, including four that can be used to pick up Extraordinary/Legendary/Whatever Artisan, all of which reduce either crafting time, gp expended, or xp expended from crafting items by 25% each. And according to the table in the ECS, they can be taken multiple times each.


EDIT: Looking back over it, the full description of the X Artisan feats doesn't say you can take them multiple times. There might be some errata of either the table or the full description somewhere, though. Either way, it still gives Artificers a break on gold, xp, and time they need to devote to making stuff.

EDIT 2: Yeah, turns out (according to JBento) they have been errata'd to once only.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 05:46 PM
An archivist could potentially learn every divine spell in existence (kind of their mandate really), but they need to FIND them first. Just because a domain or other funky spell exists, does not mean that the archivist can get his mits on it. Secretive churches, isolationist druidic sects, and groups unfriendly to the archivist will not willingly open their library or sell scrolls. It becomes an in-game challenge to aquire them, and you appreciate them more because they were earned.This is a good point: Although the worst-case scenario of an archivist is broken beyond even anything a wizard can do, it's very easy for the DM to reign in the archivist by limiting access to spells. In fact, it leaves the DM in a very difficult position, balance-wise, because if he limits access to spells too much, the archivist actually ends up being fairly weak (for a full caster, that is).



I imagine it's something like all the wood that spontaneously appears whenever I conjure a palisade of quarterstaves.Everyone always makes fun of the rules for crafting quarterstaves or clubs, but they actually make sense. The rules don't actually say or imply that you can snap your fingers and make a staff appear out of thin air. They say that you can make a staff from 0 GP worth of raw materials, not that you can make one without raw materials. There's a long stick lying in the middle of the woods. It's worthless. I pick it up, and now it's a quarterstaff. I've successfully crafted a quarterstaff, in no time, from 0 GP worth of raw materials. But I still needed a stick.

JBento
2008-03-04, 05:54 PM
Actually, the Wahtever Artisan feats have been Errata'd and clarified that you can only take each one once

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 06:08 PM
I don't know. While powerful, anyone can buy items if they have the gold, even two levels before you'd normally get the spell.

Sure, but they do it at half price AND have no chance of failure.


Yes, and that will work well to fix them. It will require DM fiat, though - because RAW, the Artificer and Archivist can use their huge list of spells to garner obscene amounts of cash, and the Artificer can ignore time completely once he gets a Dedicated Wright. Stick one in a Portable Hole, make the checks, it does the work, you go adventuring.

It still won't "fix them"; archivists are still rediculous (though not nearly as much so) if you enforce reasonable restrictions on what they can get (good luck finding a divine scroll of fireball).

The problem is that artificers are broken just if you use them as they are written. There's not all that much in the way of shenanigans necessary to break them; they're using their abilities in the way they were meant to be used. They're just really, really broken.


Believe me. I've played artificers in games where crafting was essentially turning gold into magic items, and ones where I had to purchase the magic items or search for the dragons bile myself. Without easy access to the magic materials required to craft, it's very restricting.

That's not RAW, though. It isn't that you can't fix artificers - in fact, you can make them fairly bad for pure casters if you don't allow them any time to really make anything. But that's basically changing the class itself.

You don't have to hunt around for them - you can just buy them, RAW. Your DM can obviously HOUSERULE otherwise, but that's HOUSERULING. He can also houserule that pure fighter classes all get a +5 inherent bonus to all their stats.

Cuddly
2008-03-04, 06:30 PM
You don't have to hunt around for them - you can just buy them, RAW. Your DM can obviously HOUSERULE otherwise, but that's HOUSERULING. He can also houserule that pure fighter classes all get a +5 inherent bonus to all their stats.

Orly?

So when the party's in some backwoods town, you let the fighter waltz in to Ye Olde Magik Shoppe and pick up that +1 flaming shocking corrosive spiked chain? You know, cause there aren't any rules about it?

Crafting magic items requires magic materials, and those magic materials aren't magically converted from gold. They, like any other magic item must be bought or found. And how often does the DM relinquish control of the magic items in the game?

Do you let your players, when in town, purchase mirrors of opposition, multiple battle belts, candles of invocation, and so forth? Probably not; you seem like a pretty smart guy.

But RAW, a Monk isn't that bad of a character because he can use a Candle of Invocation or a Scroll of Gate for infinite wishes.

I'm not saying the artificer ISN'T broken- nowhere have I said that. I think it is the most broken class in the game. But for actual play, because all of its powers aren't contained within itself (like the druid) and rely largely on the DM letting the artificer have time/find the materials, it doesn't always end up being zomg broken. Usually just casually broken, like a wizard or CoDzilla.

[edit]
Actually, there are rules about it. Town sizes and available goods. 'Course, you could always teleport/plane shift somewhere to find what you need, but by that level, everything is about to take a back seat to the win that is full casters.

Thinker
2008-03-04, 07:17 PM
And yet no one outlines or specifically states what those components are. Its almost like the designers planned on easy access and at-will crafting.

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 08:01 PM
Wait. I've got it.

We all know how insanely powerful Vow of Poverty is on a Druid, right?

The new most overpowered build ever: VoP Artificer.

Citizen Jenkins
2008-03-04, 08:06 PM
Or, to be fair to the designers, almost like they intentionally left it open to the DM's interpretation. I can see where one DM might ignore the material components and make them commonly available where another might make them really difficult to obtain but I see nothing per RAW to make the first ruling (Thinker's) more legitimate than the second (Cuddly's).

tyckspoon
2008-03-04, 08:11 PM
Wait. I've got it.

We all know how insanely powerful Vow of Poverty is on a Druid, right?

The new most overpowered build ever: VoP Artificer.

Is this.. sarcasm? Or something? I'm pretty sure a Poverty Artificer completely fails to work, much like a Cleric that doesn't get DM dispensation to keep his holy symbol. Vow of Poverty would prevent you from getting any cash to craft stuff with (and spending xp in place of all the gold will drain your xp reserve very quickly), it stops you from cannibalizing other magic items to refill your reserve ('cause that's using them for your own benefit), it forces you to give up any magic items you nonetheless manage to craft successfully, it prevents you from making a crafting homonculus to do the time-consuming stuff for you.. taking a class that is built around creating and using expensive magic stuff and giving it a feat that forbids expensive magic stuff is a hilariously bad idea.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 08:20 PM
Then again, if you can manage to do something with that, you're this:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p94/nonsense82/Chuck-Norris.jpg

DementedFellow
2008-03-04, 11:12 PM
Stupid question:
Why do you guys say a warforged artificer is the bee's knees because he doesn't need to rest? I can't find where it says they don't need rest. Maybe I'm missing it. If so can you tell me what page. I'm in the process of making one on paper just to see what it will play like at the next session I have with my group, but I can't find that bit.

ZekeArgo
2008-03-04, 11:43 PM
Stupid question:
Why do you guys say a warforged artificer is the bee's knees because he doesn't need to rest? I can't find where it says they don't need rest. Maybe I'm missing it. If so can you tell me what page. I'm in the process of making one on paper just to see what it will play like at the next session I have with my group, but I can't find that bit.

The warforged main description, Eberron Campaign Setting, page 23:

"A warforged does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, though he can still benefit from consumable magical items and spells."

DementedFellow
2008-03-04, 11:47 PM
The warforged main description, Eberron Campaign Setting, page 23:

"A warforged does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, though he can still benefit from consumable magical items and spells."

But the artificer class says he needs to rest for 8 hours. Then use another 15 minutes to prepare his infusions. Does this mean that the racial class overrides this?

Project_Mayhem
2008-03-05, 12:18 AM
But the artificer class says he needs to rest for 8 hours. Then use another 15 minutes to prepare his infusions. Does this mean that the racial class overrides this?

nope, you're right. However, in an out of battle situation, the artificer doesn't really need his infusions.

NEO|Phyte
2008-03-05, 12:21 AM
For the purposes of recovering spells/power points, characters that don't need to SLEEP for 8 hours still need to be resting for those 8 hours. Assuming Infusions work like spells, while the warforged doesn't need SLEEP, it will still need 8 hours of not doing anything to regain said infusions.

DementedFellow
2008-03-05, 12:28 AM
Haha, okay, I was just wondering. Thanks guys. You're the greatest.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-05, 12:46 AM
Actually, there are rules about it. Town sizes and available goods. 'Course, you could always teleport/plane shift somewhere to find what you need, but by that level, everything is about to take a back seat to the win that is full casters.

Is there someplace which has a higher GP limit than 100,000 gp?


Why do you guys say a warforged artificer is the bee's knees because he doesn't need to rest? I can't find where it says they don't need rest. Maybe I'm missing it. If so can you tell me what page. I'm in the process of making one on paper just to see what it will play like at the next session I have with my group, but I can't find that bit.

I don't really get this either, to be honest. You can only spend 8 hours a day crafting anyway (well, crafting magic items). Though there ARE other obvious benefits to being a warforged.

How would having the extra 8 hours/day be helpful?

Squash Monster
2008-03-05, 01:34 AM
That's not the reason why warforged artificers are considered good. It's a bunch of little random benefits for warforged. Racial substitution levels and such.

I don't remember them all, but I seem to recall there was a modification you could get installed on yourself to get wand slots, and be able to switch between them easily. I don't recall the details, but it was good.

Aquillion
2008-03-05, 02:55 AM
That's not the reason why warforged artificers are considered good. It's a bunch of little random benefits for warforged. Racial substitution levels and such.

I don't remember them all, but I seem to recall there was a modification you could get installed on yourself to get wand slots, and be able to switch between them easily. I don't recall the details, but it was good.Another reason is that artificers get a lot of infusions to help or heal constructs, and a Warforged can, of course, use all those on themselves. It isn't a huge benefit, since infusions aren't a big deal anyway, but it's nice.

Cuddly
2008-03-05, 03:13 AM
Warforged, other than being one of the most powerful LA 0, 0 HD races around, get racial substitution levels for artificer which basically doubles their crafting reserve for crafting stuff on his body, making armor, or making weapons.

The warforged con buff, fortification, and ability to start with adamantine full plate makes them exceptional tanks at low levels. I can't remember if infusions are subject to arcane spell failure. I don't think they are, which makes the full plate artificer a pretty beefy "gish".

senrath
2008-03-05, 07:46 AM
That's not the reason why warforged artificers are considered good. It's a bunch of little random benefits for warforged. Racial substitution levels and such.

I don't remember them all, but I seem to recall there was a modification you could get installed on yourself to get wand slots, and be able to switch between them easily. I don't recall the details, but it was good.

Wand Sheath, IIRC. The warforged artificer in my group has one. It's a warforged gauntlet that makes it so that all you need to do to use the wand you stuck into it is point.

Starsinger
2008-03-05, 07:51 AM
I don't really get this either, to be honest. You can only spend 8 hours a day crafting anyway (well, crafting magic items). Though there ARE other obvious benefits to being a warforged.

How would having the extra 8 hours/day be helpful?

At the very least, said warforged could craft while his companions are sleeping, to get the maximum amount of adventuring in per day.