Aslan vs Sauron - Who Wins?

[Hung Lo]

Picture, if you will, the peaceful inhabitants of Narnia... fauns, centaurs, nymphs, talking animals, some humans, and other creatures of myth dwelling contentedly with one another, drinking tea and eating crumpets and such.

Suddenly, a storm rages in a distant part of Narnia for a year and a day... when the smoke clears, brave Narnian explorers find a vast stone bridge leading off over a dark, foul abyss... a bridge to a land called Mordor!

A few inquisitive souls start walking across the bridge - but they are soon met by large angry green-skinned folks....

Orcs. Lots of orcs. And some war-trolls and other nightmarish creatures with Ringwraiths in command.

It seems that a gap between realms has opened at Sauron's will... with The Ring long missing and Middle Earth under his rule, he has waited a long time to find a new world to conquer and enslave!

The initial defenses of the Narnians crumbles quickly... it seems that there is no hope as orcs swarm over the bridge, killing and burninating everything in sight. The orcs and goblins swiftly build a mighty (but not invincible fortress) to hold the bridge on the Narnian side and prepare to sweep over the rest of the land.

Yet there is always hope in Narnia... as the protector of the land comes forth, the mighty lion Aslan! The Lion swiftly rallies all good people to fight in their defense... but can he stop the Evil Eye from laying waste to Narnia?

So, how about it?

Aslan vs. Sauron in a war between Narnia and Middle Earth!

Aslan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan

Aslan is the most powerful being in Narnia, deeply tied to its magic. He is good, kind, and wise, and he is at least semi-divine. Every good Narnian would gladly lay down his/her/its life for him.

He has good dwarves, nymphs, talking beasts, centaurs, and other creatures to fight for him, along with a small number of humans. He may have a few heroic beasts or humans working with him (ala a Prince Caspian) but no one of epic caliber.

There are also quite a few bad creatures in Narnia who would be happy to work for new management.

NOTE - I only read up through Prince Caspian so far, so there may be more canonical stuff I don't know but would be interested to learn.

Sauron

Discussed to death. :smallsmile:

Let's say that the Ring has been lost somewhere, so he was able to win the final war of the Third Age - so he has no apparent personal weaknesses and just about all of Middle Earth to tap into to make war.

How does this sound? :smallbiggrin:

[AslanCross]

Simply put, Aslan is Jesus. I don't want to get into a religious debate here, but the divinity of Aslan was explicit and was intended by the author to be that way. He was the creator of Narnia (in The Magician's Nephew) and its apocalyptic judge (The Last Battle). Aslan was only killed in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe)because he let himself be killed, and of course he does not permanently die.
Sauron has been shown to be defeatable by many other things elsewhere. I don't think this thread is really valid.

EDIT: Spoilerized for protection.

[MeklorIlavator]

Mega spoilers. Read at one's own peril.
Aslan=God
So he's likely comparable to Eru Ilúvatar, the most powerful being in the middle Earth setting.
I'd go with Aslan.

[AslanCross]

Perhaps it would be better if we matched up the White Witch and Sauron. Two evil overlords/ladies with magic and hordes of evil ruling forbidding lands.

[Mx.Silver]

Is this bearing in mind that Aslan is a painfully unsubtle stand-in for Jesus Christ? Because if so this could quickly make this subject rather thorny indeed.

If we ignored that fact though (which is the only way this thread would remotely make sense), I'd say Sauron smacks Aslan pretty hard. Narnia never really faced anyone with Sauron's capacity for corruption nor his amount of well-trained troops. Sauron was a signficant threat to an entire world, whereas Narnia is a small country. Which got taken-over by the White Witch (pretty much on her own, according to The Magician's Nephew). Then again, Aslan's just a Deus Ex Machina with a mane and four legs ('You're lost? Aslan! You're turned into a dragon? Aslan! You could really use something to heal someone from almost certain death? Aslan, with the potion of cure all wounds!').

[Mr. Scaly]

Setting aside Aslan's general godliness, the Narnians themselves wouldn't last ten minutes against the troops of Mordor. They've been defeated by men before. I don't see why orcs would be any different.

[Rowanomicon]

My first thought is that Sauron stands no chance for the already mentioned reasons. So don't jump on me for being an unreasonable fanboy. I am merely trying to entertain the idea that Aslan can be defeated and figur eout a way that one could argue for Sauron. Simply put I'm going to play the devil's advocate :smalltongue: (pun intended).

Now, if we separate Aslan in our minds from all figures in real world mythology and history and only look as his canonical capabilities we see this (I've read all the Narnia book, but I finished the last one some 7 odd years ago so my memory is fuzzy):

1. He can create worlds.
2. If he sacrifices his life to save another then he can come back.
3. He can heal (I think).
4. He's as brave and tough as a lion in combat (OK it's a bad joke, sue me).

Anything else?

[Squidmaster]

I think that while Sauron would easily win a war. No amount of randomly assorted forest animals could defeat the forces of Mordor, especially since may evil residents of Narnia would flock to Saurons banner. In a one-on-one fight it is more of a toss up. If Sauron can hit and hurt Aslan, which I would assume, then he could probaly win. If it is assumed Aslan is god, and has a simeler amount of Power with Eru, then Sauron is in deep sh*t.
From the little I have read of the cronicles of Narnia, I would think that even if Aslan got the ring he would let some human child destroy it. Then, insta corruption, so Aslan would probaly have to enter Mordor himself to finish Sauron off. With the homefeild advantage there is no way the dark lord can lose.

[ArlEammon]

I think that while Sauron would easily win a war. No amount of randomly assorted forest animals could defeat the forces of Mordor, especially since may evil residents of Narnia would flock to Saurons banner. In a one-on-one fight it is more of a toss up. If Sauron can hit and hurt Aslan, which I would assume, then he could probaly win. If it is assumed Aslan is god, and has a simeler amount of Power with Eru, then Sauron is in deep sh*t.
From the little I have read of the cronicles of Narnia, I would think that even if Aslan got the ring he would let some human child destroy it. Then, insta corruption, so Aslan would probaly have to enter Mordor himself to finish Sauron off. With the homefeild advantage there is no way the dark lord can lose.

The problem with this is that Aslan has shown the ability to transform a prisoner of war, in wikipedia, into an animal for losing his temper. In addition to this, Aslan was hit square in his maney head with the lamp post that the White Witch through at him after she broke it from the ground, and it didn't hurt him at all.

[EvilElitest]

Who is Jesus Christ? Wasn't he some sort of superstar?


ok really, a few questions


1. Is Aslan a god based on real in book powers? What had he done?
2. What are the evil Narnia creatures doing?
3. Are all of the good creatures on Aslan's side


ironically enough, both Authors are good friends, i think it is a very suiting vs thread. Another thing worth noting is that both are Catholic myth lovers with very different ideas of the nature of good and evil. Who's version are we using?
from
EE

[Seraph]

1. Is Aslan a god based on real in book powers? What had he done?

created narnia singlehandedly. pawedly. whatever. shut up.

[EvilElitest]

created narnia singlehandedly. pawedly. whatever. shut up.

Is he able to do that in this thread? Did he do it alone? Is he omnipotent?
from
EE

[GoC]

The problem with this is that Aslan has shown the ability to transform a prisoner of war, in wikipedia, into an animal for losing his temper. In addition to this, Aslan was hit square in his maney head with the lamp post that the White Witch through at him after she broke it from the ground, and it didn't hurt him at all.

Remember, the witch had strength enough to break steel bars.
Simply put Aslan is pretty much a Jesus stand-in so it's hopeless. He didn't just give advice about how to create the world with a song he actualy created it (with a song) and it's implied he also created thousands of other worlds including the one we live in (which is trillions upon trillions upon trillions of times larger than the one in Middle Earth).
He can change size and form at will so there goes Sauron's shapeshifting advantage. He's really really fast (I've no idea how fast but over 200 m/s is implied though teleportation is a possibility).
I'll also stake my soul (literaly) on Aslan completely negating all Sauron's corruption.
Don't dismiss Peter and the others though. With only a few days in Narnia each of them could rack up an impressive kill count and Susan (and lucy?) can hit a perfect bullseye every time from several hundred meters. Peter also fought giants larger than anything from Middle Earth except possibly Angalon the Black (spelling?).

Overall? The orcs aren't going to come within ten miles of Aslan without a Nazgul or Sauron to reassure them and Aslan's "glorious aura" and "pure aura" powers will send the nazgul home crying or (more likely) get them to switch sides.

EE: Yes, he did it alone.

[Hung Lo]

I didn't know Aslan had created Narnia - I guess that would give him a home court advantage.

Now that I think about it, I get the sense that Narnia had its great war against the White Witch, but that would be a tiny struggle compared to the War of the Ring.

[Rutee]

The war of the ring was objectively tiny, dude. There were what, 50,000 orcs? Big for European Medieval times, sure, but.. not that big overall.

[EvilElitest]

Question people, how many dudes does narnia have? It seems pretty small and disorganized to me

Also, are we just going with Aslan lion form, not world creating deity here?
from
EE

[Rutee]

Who cares? Aslan seems to be a standin for the Abrahamic /God/, not just Jesus. That's pretty much GG for Sauron, even if he takes the field alone.

[EvilElitest]

The war of the ring was objectively tiny, dude. There were what, 50,000 orcs? Big for European Medieval times, sure, but.. not that big overall.

I"m thinking way higher numbers than that, somewhere in the hundreds of thousands in you count all of Sauron's forces, even higher if you count good/neutral sides
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Question people, how many dudes does narnia have? It seems pretty small and disorganized to me

Also, are we just going with Aslan lion form, not world creating deity here?
from
EE

Narnia itself is pretty small, and not completely in control of its own people. There are a lot of sentient animals. Some men. Dwarves, fawns (satyrs), centaurs, a few good giants. They've all gathered up into armies before with some success, but really...there's no way they'd beat orcish hordes. They've been beaten before by organised invaders without supernatural help.

The thing is, lion form seems to be Aslan's only form though... It's been a while since I read them though, so don't quote me.

[GoC]

The thing is, lion form seems to be Aslan's only form though... It's been a while since I read them though, so don't quote me.

He generaly prefers catish forms (lions, leopards and housecats) but has assumed other forms like an albatross. Overall he's assumed a far greater number of different forms than Sauron.

Numericaly the Narnians are almost certainly outnumbered 10 to 1 (about 200,000 orcs and men for Sauron and 20,000 Narnians seems about right) but Aslan's auras are going to make mincemeat of the enemy army and really boost his own. Plus he can call forth the spirits of the trees and there are a lot of trees in Narnia.

[Mx.Silver]

The thing is, lion form seems to be Aslan's only form though... It's been a while since I read them though, so don't quote me.
It's not, he appears as a lamb (see what I meant about unsubtle?) once among other things.

[EvilElitest]

GoC, why would Sauron only get 20,000?
from
EE

[Mewtarthio]

Aslan's lion form is the world-creating deity. When he was a young boy, the Professor in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe witnessed the creation of Narnia firsthand in The Magician's Nephew. Aslan, the lion, walks through the proto-world, singing, and the world is created from there. He also created all the animals, and then gave a certain subset of them (including a horse from Modern Earth... er, well, late nineteenth century Earth, anyway) intelligence and speech. Later, in The Last Battle he revokes said gifts from an animal that has abandoned the faith. Also in The Last Battle, he destroys Narnia and creates the Narnian Afterlife, which includes people from Modern Earth.
He can also apparently redirect souls to the afterlife. At the end of The Last Battle, it's revealed that the Pevensie children were sent to Narnia after dying in a train wreck.

[Mr. Scaly]

20,000 seems a bit low, honestly...unless I'm just comparing Narnia to modern countries with 20 million.

[Mx.Silver]

He can also apparently redirect souls to the afterlife. At the end of The Last Battle, it's revealed that the Pevensie children were sent to Narnia after dying in a train wreck.
Barring Susan who is left-out for putting her Narnian experiences behind her and getting-on with her life. Not that's anything like a warped aesop (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WarpedAesop) or anything.

[TheElfLord]

Aslan all the way. A fully divine being will wipe the floor with a demigod/angel in an all out fight.

And I don't mean to pick on you Rutee, but I had to points of disagreement.



The war of the ring was objectively tiny, dude. There were what, 50,000 orcs? Big for European Medieval times, sure, but.. not that big overall.

While the War of the Rings wasn't huge by modern standards, it appears to be far larger than anything in Narnia. Remember, Ragabash planned to Conquer all of Archenland with I believe just 200 men.


Who cares? Aslan seems to be a standin for the Abrahamic /God/, not just Jesus. That's pretty much GG for Sauron, even if he takes the field alone.

Actually Aslan is referred to multiple times as the Son of the Emperor over the See. This is why Aslan is held to represent Jesus, while the Emperor is held to represent the Abrahamic God.

[EvilElitest]

How about for the purpose of this thread, mr. Lion is limited to his lion form's powers only?
from
EE

[GoC]

GoC, why would Sauron only get 20,000?
from
EE

I said 200,000 not 20,000.


An army of 10,000 is built up by one of the most powerful of ancient elven kingdoms and sent to fight in one of the greatest battles of middle earth. That's right, ten thousand was the entire army of a mighty elven kingdom. Generaly the books seem consistant in that the very few numbers they give are in the thousands or (rarely) the tens of thousands.


Massive, but not in modern terms. An army of a million troops would have been the largest army ever seen on middle earth judging by the few actual numbers in the books (a few thousand here and there and a significant army of ten thousand in the ancient epic times).


While the War of the Rings wasn't huge by modern standards, it appears to be far larger than anything in Narnia. Remember, Ragabash planned to Conquer all of Archenland with I believe just 200 men.
To be fair it was meant to be a surprise attack which would take out the capital of a small country boardering Narnia and with their king dead Archenland would have surrendered. Also that 200 highly-skilled hoursemen so given their advantages I think it's realistic that they could have taken a garison of 1000.

[Seraph]

How about for the purpose of this thread, mr. Lion is limited to his lion form's powers only?
from
EE

you don't quite get it. Aslan's powers are not limited by the form he takes. his shape is purely for symbolic purposes, nothing more.

[EvilElitest]

1. GoC, quote on the p. number. And yes, if you add up all of the dues Sauron ever had, i think it is way above 200,000, through no modern army
2. I mean Aslan can only use his lesser powers/moral powers, you know what i mean
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

1. GoC, quote on the p. number. And yes, if you add up all of the dues Sauron ever had, i think it is way above 200,000, through no modern army
2. I mean Aslan can only use his lesser powers/moral powers, you know what i mean
from
EE

His non-world creation powers you mean?

[EvilElitest]

His non-world creation powers you mean?

Yeah. Just the powers he can use in the world, in the books directly
from
EE

[GoC]

1. GoC, quote on the p. number. And yes, if you add up all of the dues Sauron ever had, i think it is way above 200,000, through no modern army
2. I mean Aslan can only use his lesser powers/moral powers, you know what i mean
from
EE
1. Damn, I really need access to my copy of the books. Could anyone give me some of the figures listed in LotRs? I was under the impression that the ancient armies were of the order of 10,000 men (the number the dude who ruled the hidden city sent into battle).
2. What lesser powers? He is omnipotent. Anything else would be an artificial limit.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yeah. Just the powers he can use in the world, in the books directly
from
EE

That's a lot of stuff. Aslan is like a MacGuffin manifested into flesh...no matter what happened, he always had the answer.

On the other hand, he sure did disappear a lot when people needed him most, so it's not inconceivable that he wouldn't show up until after the orcs roll over the animals.

[EvilElitest]

1. Damn, I really need access to my copy of the books. Could anyone give me some of the figures listed in LotRs? I was under the impression that the ancient armies were of the order of 10,000 men (the number the dude who ruled the hidden city sent into battle).
2. What lesser powers? He is omnipotent. Anything else would be an artificial limit.

1. The duedes in the hidden city only sent 10,000 because they hated getting involved in the war and i don't think they wanted to spare men. They also needed a secret quick moving force
2. Well Saruman's main force was 10,000 orcs alone, not counting his many other units in that army, and his lesser forces in other areas and his force in Isengard and around (destroyed by the ents) and another 300 in the Shire.

At the Battle of Pelenor fields, Sauron has a lot of armies. The force of Morgul alone was greater than any other army ever around in the third age, and he had plenty of armies near to that side around.
3. Damn it
from
EE

[Dervag]

How about for the purpose of this thread, mr. Lion is limited to his lion form's powers only?
from
EEFine, but that's not much of a limit.

Let me put it this way:

Sauron is a Maiar, which makes him weaker than the Valar, who are in turn weaker than Eru who sang Middle-Earth into existence.

Aslan, in lion form or otherwise, can just about sing worlds into existence. He may be empowered to do so by his Father, the "Emperor over the Sea," but the basic principle remains.

Narnia vs. Mordor, Narnia loses. Aslan vs. Sauron, Aslan wins.


1. GoC, quote on the p. number. And yes, if you add up all of the dues Sauron ever had, i think it is way above 200,000, through no modern army
2. I mean Aslan can only use his lesser powers/moral powers, you know what i mean
from
EEI know what you mean. But the thing is, he doesn't have those kinds of limits. He has times where he does not exercise his powers because it would not be appropriate for him to do so (as on the Stone Table). But he's some RPG boss with defined "forms" in which he has varying powers and abilities.

If he were faced with something like Sauron, he is powerful enough to find a way to win, and motivated enough to do so.

[GoC]

1. The duedes in the hidden city only sent 10,000 because they hated getting involved in the war and i don't think they wanted to spare men. They also needed a secret quick moving force
2. Well Saruman's main force was 10,000 orcs alone, not counting his many other units in that army, and his lesser forces in other areas and his force in Isengard and around (destroyed by the ents) and another 300 in the Shire.

At the Battle of Pelenor fields, Sauron has a lot of armies. The force of Morgul alone was greater than any other army ever around in the third age, and he had plenty of armies near to that side around.

1. I was under the impression they sent every warrior they had but without the book I can't check.
2. Main force of 10,000 and several lesser forces of 5,000 could put Saruman's army at almost 30,000. Make the army that assaulted Minas Tirith a bit larger (say 40,000) and you've got around 100-200 thousand for Sauron's forces. That seems about right.

[Lord Iames Osari]

EE, imposing arbitrary limits on Aslan while allowing Sauron his full powers such that Sauron is capable of defeating Aslan defeats the purpose of asking which one of them would win in a fight.

It's like asking, "Would Mohammed Ali win in a fight against Stephen Hawking, if Mohammed Ali was comatose?"

[GoC]

EE, imposing arbitrary limits on Aslan while allowing Sauron his full powers such that Sauron is capable of defeating Aslan, which defeats the purpose of asking which one of them would win in a fight.

It's like asking, "Would Mohammed Ali win in a fight against Stephen Hawking, if Mohammed Ali was comatose?"

Stephen Hawking builds a giant mecha and stops Ali into the ground!:smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

1. I was under the impression they sent every warrior they had but without the book I can't check.
2. Main force of 10,000 and several lesser forces of 5,000 could put Saruman's army at almost 30,000. Make the army that assaulted Minas Tirith a bit larger (say 40,000) and you've got around 100-200 thousand for Sauron's forces. That seems about right.

1. I don't think so
2. Um, no Sauron's force was a LOT bigger than Saurmans. The Hardrim alone out numbered the Riders (6,000) three to one, and they were only one of many many many armies



EE, imposing arbitrary limits on Aslan while allowing Sauron his full powers such that Sauron is capable of defeating Aslan, which defeats the purpose of asking which one of them would win in a fight
Well if Aslan is omnipotent, he wins right?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Well if Aslan is omnipotent, he wins right?
from
EE

Where's the fun in that? Like I said before, Aslan tends to not be there when people need him the most.

[EvilElitest]

Where's the fun in that? Like I said before, Aslan tends to not be there when people need him the most.

Good point and his tactics are lacking as well

from
EE

[TheElfLord]

1. I was under the impression they sent every warrior they had but without the book I can't check.


That was the impression I got as well. The book doesn't really go one way or the other, but other than EE I've never heard anyone suggest they didn't send their full strength, the other Elf rulers (outside of Thingol and Orderieth) gave it their all.

[GoC]

1. I don't think so
2. Um, no Sauron's force was a LOT bigger than Saurmans. The Hardrim alone out numbered the Riders (6,000) three to one, and they were only one of many many many armies

I thought they were the main human army and that Sauron's army was roughly half human and half orc?

[EvilElitest]

I thought they were the main human army and that Sauron's army was roughly half human and half orc?

No it was mostly orc, with a hell of a lot of human
from
EE

[AslanCross]

Where's the fun in that? Like I said before, Aslan tends to not be there when people need him the most.

Err, no. He always arrives when he's needed the most. In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, he appears when the Witch successfully tempts Edmund. He appears in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader when they get lost in the darkness (at least as far as I can remember, AFB), appearing in the form of an albatross. In The Last Battle, he appears when Tirian and the two children are up against the wall and Tash (the real Tash) comes to claim his prey. Like someone said earlier, he's the deus ex machina of the series.

And EE, even in his lion form he single-handedly and practically instantly killed Jadis, the White Witch. A very powerful half-Jinn, half-giant sorceress. Jadis was abnormally tall (seven feet). She could disintegrate giant doors with a word and could break iron with her bare hands. She had the power to cast an endless winter over all of Narnia. She could turn anything to stone with her wand instantly. She'd also single-handedly obliterated her homeworld of Charn with a single spell. When she spoke the Deplorable Word, everybody on her homeworld died except for her. Most of Jadis's power died with her homeworld, but she was still incredibly powerful when she recovered in Narnia.


It's not clear in the books how Aslan killed her, though in the movie Aslan simply tears her throat out. In The Magician's Nephew, the Witch throws a heavy lamppost bar (which she'd been using as a mace) at him square in the forehead, to absolutely no effect.

Aslan is also described changing size. He never seems to appear the same size to the people in Narnia. Sometimes he's only cat-sized, sometimes he's the size of an elephant. This may be the least relevant of his powers, since he's been able to resurrect and restore the youth of a dead human with his blood (he did this to the deceased Caspian).

[Rutee]

Well if Aslan is omnipotent, he wins right?
Why does Sauron have to have a chance to win? Just say "Aslan wins, because Sauron is utterly outclassed, and this was probably a bad vs. thread from the start, on the grounds that one character can't feasibly kill the other."


Good point and his tactics are lacking as well
You don't know jack about tactics, frankly; You need to stop talking about them. ESPECIALLY since you don't know Sauron's, /at all/.

[AslanCross]

This is why I propose Jadis versus Sauron instead. It's a more worthwhile discussion because as much as I like Narnia (hence the username), Aslan really isn't a suitable subject for a vs thread.

[Oslecamo]

Aslan is THE god of Narnia. The one who controls everything. He created Narnia, destroyed it, and then rebuilt it. He spawned a tree whose fruits gave eternal life.

His ony known limitation is that he can't breack it's own rules once he has declared them. As seen in the movie, the white witch tries to take advantage of this by reclaiming the head of the traitous child. But then there is another rule wich allows him to ressurect. Very complicated story, but point is, Sauron is awfully outclassed.



So we can agree on geting White witch against Sauron?

As a middle point, however, I must say that most Narnia forces are only in the range of hundreds of human sized creatures, and some dozens of big creatures like giants.

The white witch gets however a vast array of spells and powers, has great physical strenght and endurance, and loves to fight in the frontline.

But how do they meet each other? Narnia invades Mordor? Mordor invades Narnia? Sauron and the witch get transported to some fantasy world and begin building an army from there?

I must say, both are good at assembling armies of evil creatures, but Sauron seems to win in the logistics department, as the white witch aparently didn't bothered to try to increase the breeding of his minions.


Pictures Sauron and the white witch geting stuck in the world of Escaflowne and proceeding to fight each other inside giant mechs.

[Finn Solomon]

The problem with a Jadis vs Sauron thread is that the full strength of Narnia won't be behind Jadis. She doesn't have anything like a standing, medieval army, trained and organised. She has her Secret Wolf Police and Black Dwarves, but during wartime the most she can muster up is a disorganised rabble of evil creatures such as wights, efreets, djinns, boggles, hobgoblins, minotaurs and so on. While they might be scary to the average English schoolkid, the forces of Mordor and Orthanc will eat them for breakfast.

I propose High King Peter to take charge of Narnia instead. Now, Peter does have access to forces unavailable to Jadis. The centaurs (best warriors in the Narnian world) are his to command, as are the great cats and giant eagles, good giants, dwarves, bears and normal men-at-arms. It's not inconceivable for Peter to have access to the Dryads and River-gods, and we know for a fact that Mordor's forces are vulnerable to huge walking trees and floods of water.

As for allies, Archenland could probably come up with a few more battalions, and if really pressed, the Narnians could ask for a temporary alliance with the Calormen empire (who have a massive standing army consisting mainly of trained cavalry).

Now Peter won't have access to Jadis's ice magic, but he doesn't need it to win. He can use home team advantage, coupled with intelligence gathered from the tree-spirits, squirrels and birds to ambush parties of orcs invading the forests. While the Narnians are massively outnumbered, they are fighting for their home, which they know their way around like the back of their proverbial hand. Peter's alliance with the trees will win it for them. If push came to shove, Narnia and Archenland might fall but the Calormen Empire definitely won't, as there is a huge desert between them and Narnia and orcs have no idea how to fight a war in one.

[Mr. Scaly]

Err, no. He always arrives when he's needed the most. In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, he appears when the Witch successfully tempts Edmund. He appears in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader when they get lost in the darkness (at least as far as I can remember, AFB), appearing in the form of an albatross. In The Last Battle, he appears when Tirian and the two children are up against the wall and Tash (the real Tash) comes to claim his prey. Like someone said earlier, he's the deus ex machina of the series.


All true. However he disappeared mysteriously and let the Talmarines conquer Narnia. When the Calormenes were invading in The Last Battle he didn't show up until it was all too late. He let the White Witch conquer the land and cast an endless winter over them in the first place, and even let her stay there and build up her power. And in The Silver Chair he knew all about prince Rilian (shown by how his clues led the children straight to him) and still did not intervene himself. I'm not arguing against his MacGuffinness, just his habit of letting mortals deal with things they're obviously not equipped to deal with.

[Oslecamo]

As I already said, from what I remember from the books, at best the armies were comprimised of hundreds of warriors, while Sauron usually moves arounds tens of thousands of forces.

That's why I'm suporting we dump them in some medieval fantasy world and let them build their on evil armies from scratch.

[GoC]

As I already said, from what I remember from the books, at best the armies were comprimised of hundreds of warriors, while Sauron usually moves arounds tens of thousands of forces.

That's why I'm suporting we dump them in some medieval fantasy world and let them build their on evil armies from scratch.

Like I said Narnia is outnumbered ten to one, they only begin to look even when you factor in Aslan's auras and the fact that most narnian humans are very powerful (probably the rough equivalent of a non-Aragorn LotR ranger).

[Anteros]

Aslan wants people to do for themselves. This is how it will go down. Aslan summons 4 children from Earth to lead the armies of Narnia. He gives advice, but doesn't really do much at all. Sauron smacks them down in like, 3 days. Aslan goes, "you know what? Fine and obliterates Sauron with a thought.

Also, in the last book, the children actually lose and die, and it turns out that it was all according to Aslan's plan to end the world and bring them to heaven anyway. So I mean, even when he loses he wins.

Let me say this again. Aslam = Christianity's Jesus. It makes it very clear. And no EE. Sauron cannot beat Jesus whose powers are quite literrally and specifically without limit.

[Doglord]

Aslan

Aslan is a lion which created a whole world
All Sauron created was a ring which a midget broke.

[GoC]

Aslan wants people to do for themselves. This is how it will go down. Aslan summons 4 children from Earth to lead the armies of Narnia. He gives advice, but doesn't really do much at all. Sauron smacks them down in like, 3 days. Aslan goes, "you know what? Fine and obliterates Sauron with a thought.

Also, in the last book, the children actually lose and die, and it turns out that it was all according to Aslan's plan to end the world and bring them to heaven anyway. So I mean, even when he loses he wins.

Let me say this again. Aslam = Christianity's Jesus. It makes it very clear. And no EE. Sauron cannot beat Jesus whose powers are quite literrally and specifically without limit.

Even without that Alsan is simply better at everything Sauron does.
Shapeshifting? He's got it and used it more often.
Vaguely defined or non-existant limits to powers? Check.
Corruption and fear auras? Pure aura and glorious aura.
Instant disabling/killing ability (burning touch)? Penance stare! Or the forced shapeshift.
Rapid movement about the country? Double-check.
Ressurection? Far better than Sauron's.
Good at melee? Even better and he fights more often.
Helped create the world? He singlehandedly created billions of worlds!

In fact, even though it's said that noone can willingly destroy the ring I bet if we got a time machine and asked Tolkien he'd say that Aslan could do it.

EDIT: I think Aragorn vs. high king Peter might be an interesting fight.

[Mr. Scaly]

Um...does itmake much sense to forced shapeshift someone who can shapeshift naturally?

And a word about that ressurection instant...Aslan explained how that happened. He said something like 'the laws of the emperor say that if one should willingly sacrifice himself for a traitor then he shall be reborn.' I'm positive I didn't get the exact wording right though...

[GoC]

Um...does itmake much sense to forced shapeshift someone who can shapeshift naturally?

And a word about that ressurection instant...Aslan explained how that happened. He said something like 'the laws of the emperor say that if one should willingly sacrifice himself for a traitor then he shall be reborn.' I'm positive I didn't get the exact wording right though...

I said it was an instant-kill ability not that it worked on Sauron.
Well at least it doesn't have a recovery time measured in years and require the construction of a new body. Anyway if he's killed he just goes to the afterlife and as he can travel freely between there and the material plane I'd say his ressurection works just fine.

[kpenguin]

White Witch vs. Sauron? Total Slap Slap Kiss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlapSlapKiss) situation.

[Tirian]

Sauron is getting a well-deserved beating here. In a nutshell, Aslan > Gandalf, and Gandalf's machinations were enough to take down Sauron. In this challenge, Aslan has the home field advantage and his short people totally pwn the hobbits.

On the other hand, it would be hard to say that the Calmorenes didn't soundly defeat Narnia in The Last Battle, and the scheme that they used is one that Sauron would have done even better. So, if the question is whether Sauron can conquer Narnia and rule it until the end of the world, that possibility exists if the Emperor allowed it.

[Anteros]

Sauron is getting a well-deserved beating here. In a nutshell, Aslan > Gandalf, and Gandalf's machinations were enough to take down Sauron. In this challenge, Aslan has the home field advantage and his short people totally pwn the hobbits.

On the other hand, it would be hard to say that the Calmorenes didn't soundly defeat Narnia in The Last Battle, and the scheme that they used is one that Sauron would have done even better. So, if the question is whether Sauron can conquer Narnia and rule it until the end of the world, that possibility exists if the Emperor allowed it.

But you'll also note that Aslan did not participate in that battle. In theory he actually wanted everyone to die in order to bring them to Heaven or some such. The question isn't Sauron vs. Narnia, it's Sauron vs. Aslan.

It's like this...

Aslan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sauron+Mordor>>>>>>>>>Narnia.

[EvilElitest]

You don't know jack about tactics, frankly; You need to stop talking about them. ESPECIALLY since you don't know Sauron's, /at all/.

Rutee, you have spouted this BS and not supported it again and again and i always respond with the same answer that you ignore, what tatical blunders has Sauron made. What major total moron moves has he pulled off. Name them, sight sources and you might have something going here

Aslan apparently didn't use his omipotent powers to destroy the Witch from the Get Go and instead allowed her to take over a chunk of the world. This indicates that he is

A) a moron
B) has some secret reason not too
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

OK we have four possible situations


1. White witch vs. Sauron

2. Good Narnia forces vs. Sauron

3. Aslan vs. Sauron if Sauron still has the power of creation


Now this is a bit of a loop hole, and i don't expect much to come from it, but couldn't sauron do waht Morgoth did and alter the nature of creation? No dice? Awwwwww

4.

And no EE. Sauron cannot beat Jesus whose powers are quite literrally and specifically without limit.
Aslan= much less cool Jesus right? Ok, now this is a really long stench and i have no idea who would win, but here me out. Tolkien was a devout Catholic right (despite being English, i need to look up on that). Now i don't want to get into too much religionists stuff, but it is also worth noting that Tolkien finished all of C. S. Lewis books before his finished the LOTRS. Now Louis and Tolkien were good friends, in fact he was one of Tolkien's only remaining friend (most of them died, in fact almost everyone he liked died) and they often shared notes and worked together. So Tolkien would be familiar with the nature of Narnia when he made his books. And so it would be barely plausible, and yes i'm aware that i am stretching it, that the nature of Sauron's evil would still work against Aslan. I mean, Aslan is proud right? And he resorts to violence, and has used ends justfies the means i think (not sure about that). Sauron might be able to take advantage of that, as Tolkien is familer with both the Catholic and Lewis' ideal of evil


So option 1 or 2 then?
from
EE

Wait, omipotence, ok never mind

[Mr. Scaly]

Aslan apparently didn't use his omipotent powers to destroy the Witch from the Get Go and instead allowed her to take over a chunk of the world. This indicates that he is

A) a moron
B) has some secret reason not too
from
EE

Hmm...if Aslan doesn't show up initially (which is normal) and Narnia gets burnt to the ground, does it count as a win if Sauron just strolls back to wherever he came from?

[EvilElitest]

Hmm...if Aslan doesn't show up initially (which is normal) and Narnia gets burnt to the ground, does it count as a win if Sauron just strolls back to wherever he came from?

could Aslan just recreate the world? Could his powers work in ME (I assume yes)
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

could Aslan just recreate the world? Could his powers work in ME (I assume yes)
from
EE

I'm not sure he'd bother, actually. When the Calormenes invaded and crushed the Narnians Aslan took them all to Paradise.

[EvilElitest]

I'm not sure he'd bother, actually. When the Calormenes invaded and crushed the Narnians Aslan took them all to Paradise.

On that subject, why was the White Witch able to take over?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

On that subject, why was the White Witch able to take over?
from
EE

It's been a long while since I read the books, but he wasn't hiding. At least not completely. When the kids talked with the beaver family they knew where Aslan was hanging out at the time. But he never went out to fight the Witch himself. He just let her Winter the land.

[EvilElitest]

It's been a long while since I read the books, but he wasn't hiding. At least not completely. When the kids talked with the beaver family they knew where Aslan was hanging out at the time. But he never went out to fight the Witch himself. He just let her Winter the land.

Ok, why? Couldn't Sauron simple taint the land and he'd just hang out
from
EE

[AslanCross]

There's no real explicit reason given for why Aslan doesn't destroy the White Witch immediately. As far as I can tell, in The Magician's Nephew, the White Witch's entry into Narnia was not an accident, nor was it by her effort. She was released from Charn and allowed into Narnia by Digory thanks to the rings (and the rings wouldn't exist if Digory's uncle hadn't been dabbling in magic he didn't really understand).

Aslan knew of the Witch's entrance, and did devise a plan to fix it---since it was the fault of humans that she got in, it would be their lot to heal her evil influence. And that's what they did when the four children came to Narnia in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

The Witch did have a purpose in Narnia---the punishment of traitors, which caused Mr. Beaver to call her "The Emperor's Hangman"---though Aslan rebuked him for this. There was something like a "Pact Primeval." Those who betray Narnia are given over to the Witch's power; This law is carved onto the Stone Table, the very same altar on which the Witch killed Aslan. (This law is what the Witch uses to claim Edmund from Aslan)

Now it's not really clear why all of Narnia falls under the Witch's power, but most of it might be due to the corruption of humans, as is the natural tendency.

Again, there was a prophecy about Narnia's salvation, and it had to do with Aslan's return and the reinstatement of uncorrupted humans as the rulers of Narnia. While the law carved on the Stone Table gave the Witch power, it also took it away---an innocent killed on the Stone Table in place of a traitor would "make even Death work backwards."

[Ozymandias]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that Aslan is an allegory for Yahweh points to his inaction as being effectively a restatement of the Epicurean Problem of Evil. I've always seen the "divine ineffable purpose" as sort of a cop-out, but then again I'm really not a religious person.

For the purposes of an actual fight, assuming Aslan tries to the best of his ability to destroy Sauron, there really isn't any semblance of doubt.

[Oslecamo]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that Aslan is an allegory for Yahweh points to his inaction as being effectively a restatement of the Epicurean Problem of Evil. I've always seen the "divine ineffable purpose" as sort of a cop-out, but then again I'm really not a religious person.

For the purposes of an actual fight, assuming Aslan tries to the best of his ability to destroy Sauron, there really isn't any semblance of doubt.

The main question is, does Aslan bothers enough to even appear before Sauron's forces?

During the 7 books, we see Aslan allowing all kinds of corruption to spread, the evil guys doing whatever they want, and only uses his powers when the bad guys totally screwed the good guys and there is no hope of victory for light left.

I picture something like this:

1-Sauron somehow finds some way into Narnia.
2-Sauron first sends his spies, then starts to corrupt the land, and finnally invades with hordes of orcs and trolls and corrupted narnians.
3-Not corrupted narnians beg for help for Aslan.
4-Aslan tells them to fend for themselves with enigmatic clues.
5-Sauron totally pwnz narnians.
6-Aslan finnally bothers to appear, ressurects good guys, and leaves again.
7-Sauron declares Narnia as his training camp and restaurant for his hordes of orcs.
8-Everybody stays happy. Well, most of them.

[Arang]

Rutee, you have spouted this BS and not supported it again and again and i always respond with the same answer that you ignore, what tatical blunders has Sauron made. What major total moron moves has he pulled off. Name them, sight sources and you might have something going here


Sauron did not hold the Pelennor Wall against Rohan.

Just mentioning it.

[WalkingTarget]

Rutee, you have spouted this BS and not supported it again and again and i always respond with the same answer that you ignore, what tatical blunders has Sauron made. What major total moron moves has he pulled off. Name them, sight sources and you might have something going here

EE, she's not saying that Sauron's tactics are bad, she's saying that we don't know what they are. Somebody saying that his tactics are bad is just as justifiable as somebody saying that his tactics are good (but since Sauron's forces still lose battles occasionally, they can't be said to be "perfect" and it'd be safer to say that they are "ok" upwards to "pretty good"). The difference is between tactics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_%28method%29) and strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_strategy) (and Sauron's strategic plans are all we know). As in, we know that he wanted to crush Gondor quickly, so he sent a sizable army there while simultaneously distracting the other groups that might try to interfere. What we don't know are things like troop formations and composition (pikes vs. archers vs. siege, etc). There is a chain of command on the field, but we never really get a feel for what they're ordering the troops to do. We know the plans (strategy) but we don't know the details of the implementation (tactics). Some of these things are evident in the films because the director had to show something, but Tolkien doesn't go into detail on them. Actually, Arang has a point. The orcs destroyed the wall instead of simply holding it, thus allowing easy access by the Rohirrim. This is an example of a tactical blunder.


Aslan apparently didn't use his omipotent powers to destroy the Witch from the Get Go and instead allowed her to take over a chunk of the world. This indicates that he is

A) a moron
B) has some secret reason not too

The answer is B. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy) which Ozymandias brought up a few posts ago.


Tolkien was a devout Catholic right (despite being English, i need to look up on that).

The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know. Anyway, yes, he was quite devoutly Catholic and he was English (born and lived a few years in South Africa before his parents moved back to England, after they died his legal guardian was a priest, but he'd been brought up Catholic to that point anyway).


Now i don't want to get into too much religionists stuff, but it is also worth noting that Tolkien finished all of C. S. Lewis books before his finished the LOTRS. Now Louis and Tolkien were good friends, in fact he was one of Tolkien's only remaining friend (most of them died, in fact almost everyone he liked died) and they often shared notes and worked together. So Tolkien would be familiar with the nature of Narnia when he made his books.

The Narnia books were written between 1949 and 1954 (published between 1950 and 1956) while LotR was written between 1937 and 1949 (correctional revisions and supplemental stuff, i.e. the indexes and maps, up to publication in 1954 and 1955) and much of the setting's history (i.e. the older parts of the Silmarillion) were started back in 1917 or so. If anything, Lewis was influenced by Tolkien, not the other way around (heck, there's a place in the Narnia setting called Numinor which was taken from Tolkien's original tellings of his stories during the Inklings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings) meetings). The part about Tolkien's friends dieing is out of place as the friends you're referring to were from his younger years (most of his friends from school died in the Great War). He didn't meet Lewis until much later (when they both worked at Oxford) by which time he'd had plenty of time to make more friends.


Wait, omipotence, ok never mind

Yeah, being an all-powerful creator deity kind of takes the fun out of vs. threads, doesn't it?

[Hung Lo]

Wow, I'm surprised at how much good stuff this conversation has revealed.

It's like folks have actually read and understood the books and such!

You guys should give yourselves a hand! :smallsmile:

[Dervag]

This is why I propose Jadis versus Sauron instead. It's a more worthwhile discussion because as much as I like Narnia (hence the username), Aslan really isn't a suitable subject for a vs thread.I like your idea, but I don't know how to follow up on it.


White Witch vs. Sauron? Total Slap Slap Kiss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlapSlapKiss) situation.Plausible. Thing is, they're both (literally) as ambitious as Satan; it would never work.


Aslan apparently didn't use his omipotent powers to destroy the Witch from the Get Go and instead allowed her to take over a chunk of the world. This indicates that he is

A) a moron
B) has some secret reason not too
from
EEIt's proven very well in the books that the answer is (B).

Remember, Aslan is C.S. Lewis's idea of what Jesus would be like in a fantasy world of talking animals and wizards and such. Hence the "has a plan for everybody" thing. That plan frequently includes disasters taking place in Narnia, for reasons I'm not entirely clear on because I only read the series once.

Thing is, in terms of power levels Aslan sits at the right hand of the creator of the world in his setting. In Middle-Earth terms, he should be at least on par with the Valar in power, probably higher. Which means he'd tromp all over Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

EE, she's not saying that Sauron's tactics are bad, she's saying that we don't know what they are. Somebody saying that his tactics are bad is just as justifiable as somebody saying that his tactics are good (but since Sauron's forces still lose battles occasionally, they can't be said to be "perfect" and it'd be safer to say that they are "ok" upwards to "pretty good"). The difference is between

She said my tactical understanding was worth nil and that Sauron didn't have good tactics or strategy


tactics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_%28method%29) and strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_strategy) (and Sauron's strategic plans are all we know). As in, we know that he wanted to crush Gondor quickly, so he sent a sizable army there while simultaneously distracting the other groups that might try to interfere. What we don't know are things like troop formations and composition (pikes vs. archers vs. siege, etc). There is a chain of command on the field, but we never really get a feel for what they're ordering the troops to do. We know the plans (strategy) but we don't know the details of the implementation (tactics). Some of these things are evident in the films because the director had to show something, but Tolkien doesn't go into detail on them. Actually, Arang has a point. The orcs destroyed the wall instead of simply holding it, thus allowing easy access by the Rohirrim. This is an example of a tactical blunder.
1. We do know however that his used attempted to counter Rohan's riders with his own (failed because his weren't as good but tried) that the orcs would have stopped the riders if they hadn't appeared on their flank all of a sudden (unlike the movie) and that the orcs had a lot of archers. We also have a bit of understanding of the troops tatical movements (the different units, his use of reserves/command, regrouping ect.

Reason for the wall thing, here is the deal
1) Sauron was trying to destroy Gondor as quickly as possible before Aragorn got home (didn't know about the Paths of the Dead) and so wasn't planning to simply sit in and fotify the land, just destroy as much as he could with his army (including the White City)
2. The wall faced outwards, thus even his having the wall wouldn't help him as he thought all of his foes who could get there in time were in the city
3. He already had cut off the Rohan forces with another army, so he didn't expect Rohan to be able to make it there

Still a bad more, but more in hindsight



The answer is B. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil) and this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy) which Ozymandias brought up a few posts ago.

So it is debatable that Aslan could simply let Sauron devastate his land?


The two aren't mutually exclusive, you know. Anyway, yes, he was quite devoutly Catholic and he was English (born and lived a few years in South Africa before his parents moved back to England, after they died his legal guardian was a priest, but he'd been brought up Catholic to that point anyway).

It is interesting to note


The Narnia books were written between 1949 and 1954 (published between 1950 and 1956) while LotR was written between 1937 and 1949 (correctional revisions and supplemental stuff, i.e. the indexes and maps, up to publication in 1954 and 1955) and much of the setting's history (i.e. the older parts of the Silmarillion) were started back in 1917 or so. If anything, Lewis was influenced by Tolkien, not the other way around (heck, there's a place in the Narnia setting called Numinor which was taken from Tolkien's original tellings of his stories during the Inklings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inklings) meetings). The part about Tolkien's friends dieing is out of place as the friends you're referring to were from his younger years (most of his friends from school died in the Great War). He didn't meet Lewis until much later (when they both worked at Oxford) by which time he'd had plenty of time to make more friends.

No i'm just saying Tolkien would be familiar with the workings of Narnia and thus the nature of Aslan/Jesus, and the nature of what Jesus/Aslan repersent. Maybe corruption, but doubteful because


Yeah, being an all-powerful creator deity kind of takes the fun out of vs. threads, doesn't it?
Yeah, omi potent

And Dervag, that still indicates not being a military thinker, just not caring. That being said, omnipotence is really the major issue here
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

She said my tactical understanding was worth nil and that Sauron didn't have good tactics or strategy

Well, most of the time I saw her bring up tactics, you tended to talk about strategy (calling it tactics) which would make her try to explain tactics again, ad nauseum. Her line that you quoted included "ESPECIALLY since you don't know Sauron's, /at all/." which goes back to the fact that we really don't.


1. We do know however that his used attempted to counter Rohan's riders with his own (failed because his weren't as good but tried) that the orcs would have stopped the riders if they hadn't appeared on their flank all of a sudden (unlike the movie) and that the orcs had a lot of archers. We also have a bit of understanding of the troops tatical movements (the different units, his use of reserves/command, regrouping ect.

By what means would the orcs have "stopped the riders"? "A lot of archers" isn't useful information to describe tactics: do they use English longbow volleys or more like individual snipers picking off important targets? Do they have pikes or other defenses around them? Saying that they had a reserve is ok, but these are all generalizations and don't explain what actually was going on. That's the point - there is no fine detail.


Still a bad more, but more in hindsight

Yes, but a bad move nonetheless. You asked for a mistake and we gave you one. Hindsight is irrelevant.


So it is debatable that Aslan could simply let Sauron devastate his land?

Oh he definitely could let Sauron devastate the land, but he could just as easily not.


No i'm just saying Tolkien would be familiar with the workings of Narnia and thus the nature of Aslan/Jesus, and the nature of what Jesus/Aslan repersent.

That's what I'm saying, though. Looking at the dates during which the books were written, Tolkien couldn't know how Narnia works. He knows how the real world works (from his perspective) and Narnia fits that as well. It'd have to be more that Tolkien had a concept for the prevalence of "evil" due to his personal beliefs, and his fictional setting incorporates that. Lewis had similar beliefs and so the settings have common ground where that is concerned.

The only thing I have to say flat out on this point, EE, is that you can't say that Tolkien wrote his story with knowledge of Narnia. Narnia has a framework that matches Middle-earth because of the authors' common starting point philosophically (which I think is what you're really trying to say here).

[Rutee]

By what means would the orcs have "stopped the riders"? "A lot of archers" isn't useful information to describe tactics: do they use English longbow volleys or more like individual snipers picking off important targets? Do they have pikes or other defenses around them? Saying that they had a reserve is ok, but these are all generalizations and don't explain what actually was going on. That's the point - there is no fine detail.
Perhaps I'm simply underestimating Sauron's capability to micro his troops from a distance, but even then, wouldn't this display the Orc Commander on the field's tactics?

[Arang]

Reason for the wall thing, here is the deal
1) Sauron was trying to destroy Gondor as quickly as possible before Aragorn got home (didn't know about the Paths of the Dead) and so wasn't planning to simply sit in and fotify the land, just destroy as much as he could with his army (including the White City)
2. The wall faced outwards, thus even his having the wall wouldn't help him as he thought all of his foes who could get there in time were in the city
3. He already had cut off the Rohan forces with another army, so he didn't expect Rohan to be able to make it there

Still a bad more, but more in hindsight


Only, if he did send an army to stop them, why not have them hold the wall? It's like going out to get as much ice cream as possible, finding a two-for-one sale and getting one. It just makes no sense, hence, bad move.

[WalkingTarget]

Perhaps I'm simply underestimating Sauron's capability to micro his troops from a distance, but even then, wouldn't this display the Orc Commander on the field's tactics?

There is evidence that Sauron can communicate with the Nazgul at the very least (they leave the battle at the Black Gate as soon as Sauron becomes aware of Frodo). As they (or, at the very least, the Witch-King) are in charge of ordering the battle, they could be taking orders from him while he watches via Palantir (or maybe he doesn't need it if his connection to them is two-way). There is more tenuous evidence that he's even allowed some control over his troops in general (holding troops in line during that same battle and they break as soon as the Ring is destroyed), but nothing solid (gotta mention the possibility though, trying to be thorough). That's just one way to look at it, however. It's just as valid to say that all decisions made on the field were made by those actually there.

You're right to bring it up as that only counts for the cases where he's able to direct things personally. AFAIK there isn't any text that describes fighting when Sauron is physically present (we know some things about his defeat to the Last Alliance, but I don't know much about the actual events during the Previous War of the Elves and Sauron when he was at the front personally). This comes back to the lack of tactical information in general. Sure, having the above information still might not tell us anything about Sauron's tactical abilities, but the lack of it shows we don't even have any information about his subordinates' tactical abilities. This in turn reinforces your point that talking tactics with regards to characters in Middle-earth is largely speculation at best.

My opinion is that Tolkien wasn't interested in depicting military engagements beyond what is required of the type of story he was telling. We get plenty of action centered on an individual or small group of protagonists (Eowyn vs. WK, Pippen vs. Troll, etc), but most of the rest is just the broad strokes of how the battle's going. He knew/researched/asked friends enough to make the setting believable and then got on with the process of telling the damned story, not plotting out the battles in such minute detail that it stands up to close scrutiny. A general (for either side) is exactly as good as is required for events to happen the way that the story demands.

[Oslecamo]

Perhaps I'm simply underestimating Sauron's capability to micro his troops from a distance, but even then, wouldn't this display the Orc Commander on the field's tactics?

Actually, this may explain a lot about why Sauron gets defeated.

No matter how smart he is, he's only one guy. He can't talk at the same time to all his legions of orcs. So even if he issues orders pre battle, if something goes wrong the orc leaders are, well, orcs, and probably can't think of any counter measure quickly enough to matter, and so Sauron's hordes get squished because he has nobody to micro his tens of thousands of troops in the field of battle, while the human and elf forces have plenty of smart guys to make an effecient chain of comand.

[GoC]

3. Aslan vs. Sauron if Sauron still has the power of creation
Sauron never had the power of creation in the literal sense, in fact no Valar or Maia did. They could use the matter in the universe to build non-sentient creatures and strange trees and can give suggestions about what to built using song but only Eru can do the actual creating.


Thing is, in terms of power levels Aslan sits at the right hand of the creator of the world in his setting. In Middle-Earth terms, he should be at least on par with the Valar in power, probably higher. Which means he'd tromp all over Sauron.
Aslan created the world not the emperor over the sea. He also created billions of other worlds, I'd say that makes him even more powerful than Eru.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Alsan vs. Sauron - whoever wins, we lose.

A classic film in the making.

[EvilElitest]

Well, most of the time I saw her bring up tactics, you tended to talk about strategy (calling it tactics) which would make her try to explain tactics again, ad nauseum. Her line that you quoted included "ESPECIALLY since you don't know Sauron's, /at all/." which goes back to the fact that we really don't.

We have seen tactics on a small scale, and nothing to indicate he sucks at them.



By what means would the orcs have "stopped the riders"? "A lot of archers" isn't useful information to describe tactics: do they use English longbow volleys or more like individual snipers picking off important targets? Do they have pikes or other defenses around them? Saying that they had a reserve is ok, but these are all generalizations and don't explain what actually was going on. That's the point - there is no fine detail.


Ok, look at it this way

1. The Orcis hoard near the forest was far larger than the entire Rohan hoard, enough that Theoden didn't think that they could defeat them even with the element of suprise. Lucky for them, they had the Woses on their side. Now the orcs are attacked on the flank by heavy calvary, shocked of their minds, and break. However the orcish hoard at the fields vastly out numbered the troops near the forest (not counting the other evil armies running around). We have seen orcs use arrow hails, then use spears, they have numbers, and they are organized and can work in groups as long as they don't break (see Sam and Frodo's journey through mordor). So yeah, had Rohan not had the element of surprise, they'd be screwed. After their attack, Sauron' has the Southrouns attack instantly with calvary, the calvary fails because their king dies and the Riders have better horsemen, however the infantry and Giant Elephants hold the riders off as Gothmog rallies the troops. The WK goes and takes out the king, gets shanked, riders regroup and attacked with renewed fury, and are yet again pushed back to a hill by the Elephants and the Haradrim/orc/easterling forces along with the two reserve units from the broken city. Then the Black Fleet appears, units attacked from behind, whoops they weren't evil after all, Aragorn and all. Massive army attacks the rear, with the sun up and all, nasty. That being said, the human units stand firm and try to push the good guys back but fail. So even as vague as Tolkien is, we have some info



Yes, but a bad move nonetheless. You asked for a mistake and we gave you one. Hindsight is irrelevant.



Only, if he did send an army to stop them, why not have them hold the wall? It's like going out to get as much ice cream as possible, finding a two-for-one sale and getting one. It just makes no sense, hence, bad move.
I will admit, it was a bad movie, but not a massive blunder, more like not paying attention to details. If he held the wall with that army, then he would be allowing Rohan to get to hte field in the first place, he figured he should just cut them off from ever reaching the field in the first place as it would be two dangerous as it was. Also should Gondor ever take the field, they could use his forified wall. The main reason of course was that eh wanted to destroy as much of Gondor as he could, but it wasn't totally stupid, just not very smart.

So 1 miltary blunder yes, just not a Picket's Charge. he didn't pull a voldemort



Oh he definitely could let Sauron devastate the land, but he could just as easily not.

Any guess on which?


That's what I'm saying, though. Looking at the dates during which the books were written, Tolkien couldn't know how Narnia works. He knows how the real world works (from his perspective) and Narnia fits that as well. It'd have to be more that Tolkien had a concept for the prevalence of "evil" due to his personal beliefs, and his fictional setting incorporates that. Lewis had similar beliefs and so the settings have common ground where that is concerned.

ok fair enough



The only thing I have to say flat out on this point, EE, is that you can't say that Tolkien wrote his story with knowledge of Narnia. Narnia has a framework that matches Middle-earth because of the authors' common starting point philosophically (which I think is what you're really trying to say here).

Well the argument i was trying to go for was taht he claim no creature could destory the ring, and as somebody who was knowledgeable of the nature of Jesus and Aslan (they compared notes i think) this would fit in, but yet again, omipotence
Oslecamo, i think Sauron's biggest problem was that he over estimated his foes' intellegence and judged them as he judged himself, the idea taht they would ever give up the ring was so absurd to him (1 because it was freaking insane idea, 2. because throwing away such a powerful weapon is something he would never think of) and underestimated the good guy's morality.


from
EE

[Rutee]

Lots of stuff

Fair enough. Actually, I prefer what Tolkien did. Informed Tactical Ability grinds my gears, when you tell me what a genius someone is and then produce blatantly stupid plans, I get ticked. Telling me someone is skilled, and /not/ contradicting it later, though? Perfectly fine by me, on its own. And it seems that Tolkien just didn't touch it, which is /still/ fine. I may need to re-examine my own definition of tactics, for that matter, as I tend to look at it as the plan for a battle, even though I know intellectually that it's also (Or was it primarily?) applied to the absolute smallest discrete units of troops.

[TheElfLord]

Sauron did not hold the Pelennor Wall against Rohan.

Just mentioning it.

Well his intention was to stop them north of the wall, where he positioned an army behind ditches and spikes, which would have broken a calvery charge. The Rider were able to go around this force by using a road no one had used in thousands of years shown to them be a group of people everyone thought was extinct.

Even then there were still some troops at the wall, but not enough to hold back the riders, who swept through the breach and defeated them before reforming for their famous charge.

[VanBuren]

Good point and his tactics are lacking as well

from
EE

Deja Vu. I swear, it's like half the VS threads you're in have you saying that whoever it is that you're opposing lacks tactics. Is this even a specific criticism of Aslan, or are we just going with stock points?

[Dervag]

Reason for the wall thing, here is the deal
1) Sauron was trying to destroy Gondor as quickly as possible before Aragorn got home (didn't know about the Paths of the Dead) and so wasn't planning to simply sit in and fotify the land, just destroy as much as he could with his army (including the White City)
2. The wall faced outwards, thus even his having the wall wouldn't help him as he thought all of his foes who could get there in time were in the city
3. He already had cut off the Rohan forces with another army, so he didn't expect Rohan to be able to make it there

Still a bad more, but more in hindsight This is in large part the result of speculation as to his motives, but it makes sense.

Thing is, it's still poor tactics to make breaches in a potential defensive outwork when there are enemy forces at large (like the Riders of Rohan).

Of course, this wasn't really Sauron's tactics to begin with- it was most likely the tactic of whatever orcs or Black Numenoreans or Nazgul were in overall command of the orc forces.


So it is debatable that Aslan could simply let Sauron devastate his land? He might. He might not. Hard to say. But the key point here is that Aslan would stop Sauron dead in his tracks at any time that he chose to do so. If Sauron were able to devastate Narnia, it would only be because it served the higher purpose Aslan serves for him to do so.


And Dervag, that still indicates not being a military thinker, just not caring.It means that Aslan is not a general. Which does not mean that he cannot win battles, only that he rarely chooses to fight battles, and does so only "precisely when he means to." To steal a phrase from someone I imagine Aslan would get along with rather well.

If you put Aslan in a situation where enemy armies are attacking, his chief concern will not be "defeat the enemy army." The enemy army may be purely incidental to his thinking. The real question is how to fit the enemy army into a longer-term plan, one that may well be served by allowing the enemy to win battles.


Only, if he did send an army to stop them, why not have them hold the wall? It's like going out to get as much ice cream as possible, finding a two-for-one sale and getting one. It just makes no sense, hence, bad move.Actually, the commander (who I'm pretty sure wasn't Sauron) placed his blocking force in a good terrain position. Not as good as a wall, but almost as good. Moreover, it is a military commonplace that it's much better to interdict an enemy force far from the key battlefield than to engage them on the field.

The problem was that Theoden and Ghan-buri-Ghan outmaneuvered his blocking force, not that he forgot to place one or put it in the wrong place.

[kamikasei]

1. The duedes in the hidden city only sent 10,000 because they hated getting involved in the war and i don't think they wanted to spare men. They also needed a secret quick moving force

I'll have to check my copy of the Silmarillion later to confirm this, but in the Nirnaeth (which I assume is what you're referring to) Turgon specifically sends forth the host of Gondolin to the battle for which he had been holding them back through the centuries. It is not some lesser expeditionary force sent out reluctantly for whatever reason; he decides that this is the time to put forth his strength, and does so. The precise numbers involved, and how much of the hidden city's army it's stated to be, I will check this evening.


Sauron is getting a well-deserved beating here. In a nutshell, Aslan > Gandalf, and Gandalf's machinations were enough to take down Sauron. In this challenge, Aslan has the home field advantage and his short people totally pwn the hobbits.

Hmmm! Hmmm. I disagree on the Gandalf thing. Gandalf isn't sure he's the equal of the Witch-King in a straight up fight; he's quite certain Sauron is mightier than he. Gandalf does not so much machinate as rally hope, and an important part of his "plan" is simply for everyone to do the best they can and trust that it will all work out in accordance with the Song and Eru's will. He bets everything on a total longshot as an act of faith. This is very different to actually plotting and scheming to bring about Sauron's downfall through clever manipulation.


Sauron never had the power of creation in the literal sense, in fact no Valar or Maia did. They could use the matter in the universe to build non-sentient creatures and strange trees and can give suggestions about what to built using song but only Eru can do the actual creating.

I'm not sure how much creation the GP had in mind, but certainly Sauron and Melkor before him had the power to transform creatures and shape the land (witness: the creation of the Orcs and Dragons, the delving of Utumno and Angband, the rearing of Thangorodrim and the mountains about Mordor). It's an important point that they can't actually create for a special Tolkienian value of "create" but they can make a lot of impressive things on a staggering scale.

[GoC]

I'll have to check my copy of the Silmarillion later to confirm this, but in the Nirnaeth (which I assume is what you're referring to) Turgon specifically sends forth the host of Gondolin to the battle for which he had been holding them back through the centuries. It is not some lesser expeditionary force sent out reluctantly for whatever reason; he decides that this is the time to put forth his strength, and does so. The precise numbers involved, and how much of the hidden city's army it's stated to be, I will check this evening.
That's what I remembered too. They build up that army for three centuries for that specific battle.


I'm not sure how much creation the GP had in mind, but certainly Sauron and Melkor before him had the power to transform creatures and shape the land (witness: the creation of the Orcs and Dragons, the delving of Utumno and Angband, the rearing of Thangorodrim and the mountains about Mordor). It's an important point that they can't actually create for a special Tolkienian value of "create" but they can make a lot of impressive things on a staggering scale.
Very true. Of course most things take a very long time. They can't create a tiger or make a new hill in two minutes for instance.

[EvilElitest]

Deja Vu. I swear, it's like half the VS threads you're in have you saying that whoever it is that you're opposing lacks tactics. Is this even a specific criticism of Aslan, or are we just going with stock points?

Because most vs. threads involve people who rely on the rule of cool rather than tactics, Seph, Voldemort, LK, ect, the list goes on. Aslan didn't show any real tactical ability, even when he raised an army, from all accounts its was just a mish mash of fantasy races. To be fair, so did the WW


This is in large part the result of speculation as to his motives, but it makes sense.

Thing is, it's still poor tactics to make breaches in a potential defensive outwork when there are enemy forces at large (like the Riders of Rohan).

Of course, this wasn't really Sauron's tactics to begin with- it was most likely the tactic of whatever orcs or Black Numenoreans or Nazgul were in overall command of the orc forces.

1. Well he didn't expect the Riders to make it to the field, as he already sent a force to cut them off, and it was unlikely that they would show up.
B. true

He might. He might not. Hard to say. But the key point here is that Aslan would stop Sauron dead in his tracks at any time that he chose to do so. If Sauron were able to devastate Narnia, it would only be because it served the higher purpose Aslan serves for him to do so.

Damn omnipotence


It means that Aslan is not a general. Which does not mean that he cannot win battles, only that he rarely chooses to fight battles, and does so only "precisely when he means to." To steal a phrase from someone I imagine Aslan would get along with rather well.

If you put Aslan in a situation where enemy armies are attacking, his chief concern will not be "defeat the enemy army." The enemy army may be purely incidental to his thinking. The real question is how to fit the enemy army into a longer-term plan, one that may well be served by allowing the enemy to win battles.

What is his long term plan by hte way?


I'll have to check my copy of the Silmarillion later to confirm this, but in the Nirnaeth (which I assume is what you're referring to) Turgon specifically sends forth the host of Gondolin to the battle for which he had been holding them back through the centuries. It is not some lesser expeditionary force sent out reluctantly for whatever reason; he decides that this is the time to put forth his strength, and does so. The precise numbers involved, and how much of the hidden city's army it's stated to be, I will check this evening.
Please do but it is worth pointing out that the force of Gondolin wouldn't want to reveal their position in sending to large a force. I think the other hidden city (the one sacked by the Father of Dragons, then looted by the Petty Dwarf, begins with a N) was found and destroyed because they sent out too large a military force which attracted attention of Morgoth's forces.

Also the valar and Maiar altered the nature of the world's creation via the song, through not enough to alter Eru's plans
from
EE

[kamikasei]

Here we are.


But now a cry went up, passing up the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and Men lifted their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying : "Auta i lómë! The night is passing!"

So, yeah. This is not exactly the behaviour of people who "hated getting involved in the war" and "didn't want to spare men". Turgon had kept his people in Gondolin preparing for war for three centuries, waiting out all the skirmishes and defenses of Beleriand and sending no men to the Dagor Bragollach. Then came the Nirnaeth, and he marched forth. No suggestion is made that he's holding back or coming reluctantly. Had he not wished to send men, he would have sent none, not few.

No specific mention is made of how much of Gondolin's strength, if any, remained behind to defend the city, but there is no indication that it was even equal to, much less greater than, what was sent out.


Please do but it is worth pointing out that the force of Gondolin wouldn't want to reveal their position in sending to large a force. I think the other hidden city (the one sacked by the Father of Dragons, then looted by the Petty Dwarf, begins with a N) was found and destroyed because they sent out too large a military force which attracted attention of Morgoth's forces.

It appears this is the source of your confusion. You're thinking of Nargothrond, which had a complicated history. First Finrod founded and ruled it, and the city was hidden but the people made war normally. Then after the Bragollach when the sons of Feanor were there and working against Beren, and Finrod renounced his kingship, the people became afraid and would not go to open war but used stealth and ambush and poison. When Turin came after the Nirnaeth and became powerful in the city, he got them going out openly again, which eventually revealed them to Glaurung and Morgoth and led to the city's fall.

None of this applied to Gondolin. Gondolin was hidden all through the battles until betrayed by Maeglin. Nargothrond fell because Morgoth had already defeated and driven back the Elves throughout all of Beleriand and thus had spies and agents and bands of orcs everywhere. Nargothrond fought continuously to defend and win back its lands where Gondolin sent out an army to a single battle.

[GoC]

Damn omnipotence

Even without omnipotence Aslan still wins. See my earlier post comparing the two.

[EvilElitest]

here is a question, why didn't Aslan use his knowledge of the real world tech to give Narnia trains?

or for that matter, why is the real world not magical or going along with his plans?
from
EE

[Artemician]

here is a question, why didn't Aslan use his knowledge of the real world tech to give Narnia trains?

or for that matter, why is the real world not magical or going along with his plans?


You know how people are asking why God doesn't end all evil in the world?

Yeah, it's like that. Ineffable wisdom.

[pendell]

One other thing to consider.

Not that Aslan needs any help, but ... in the last battle, Aslan literally calls *all the stars in the sky* to his side.

Sauron would not win a head-to-head fight.

But Sauron's smart. He would not fight a head-to-head battle.

Instead, I think he'd use some variation of Melkor's strategy -- send out lots of spies and thralls to sow dissension, doubt, heresy, and folly among the Narnians. Wait until they have so estranged themselves from Aslan that he would not step into help them under any circumstances. Then roll in with the orcs.

It isn't as satisfying as fighting an immortal being head to head, killing him and sticking his head on a spike. But when Narnia has a giant in it so large that he can reach up and squeeze the sun like a grapefruit .. and Aslan can control him... the only option is to change the rules of the game.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Oslecamo]

here is a question, why didn't Aslan use his knowledge of the real world tech to give Narnia trains?

or for that matter, why is the real world not magical or going along with his plans?
from
EE

You don't question god, you pray to him and pray that he helps you.

[Rutee]

Instead, I think he'd use some variation of Melkor's strategy -- send out lots of spies and thralls to sow dissension, doubt, heresy, and folly among the Narnians. Wait until they have so estranged themselves from Aslan that he would not step into help them under any circumstances. Then roll in with the orcs.
Misinterpretation of intent. He's /specifically/ trying to pound Aslan, for purposes of this thread.

[Mr. Scaly]

Hey, no citing divine wisdom as an explanation for bad tactics.

[EvilElitest]

1. Just to remind people, Aslan isn't the Christian god, he is a being much like the Christian god. So we can't use Biblical Knowledge to explain his points.
2. It is worth pointing out that Sauron has shown to be able to switch from full scale war to domination in the past. Brian P. has a good point, his doing that would make sense
That being said, we have the whole omnipotence deal
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Misinterpretation of intent. He's /specifically/ trying to pound Aslan, for purposes of this thread.

Y'know I just went back and read the OP and you seem to be mistaken. No where in the OP does it say that this thread aught to discount Sauron's craftiness.

Sure, he's also allowed to beat people down physically, but that doesn't mean he can't have sneaky and underhanded tactics working at the same time.

Aslan may be able to end worlds, but he doesn't make a habit of it and Sauron, being a permanent fixture of existence (as opposed to a piece of creation) would not, in my view, be undone by that.

I don't remember it specifically stating that Aslan is actually omnipotent (although I'm not denying the obvious Jesus metaphor).

[osyluth]

How about for the purpose of this thread, mr. Lion is limited to his lion form's powers only?
from
EE

It doesn't matter what he's limited to - Aslan is a divine talking lion of incredible power. I don't care if he's going up against Saruman, Sauron, or Morgoth itself, he will kick their evil butts.

[Rutee]

Y'know I just went back and read the OP and you seem to be mistaken. No where in the OP does it say that this thread aught to discount Sauron's craftiness.

Sure, he's also allowed to beat people down physically, but that doesn't mean he can't have sneaky and underhanded tactics working at the same time.

Aslan may be able to end worlds, but he doesn't make a habit of it and Sauron, being a permanent fixture of existence (as opposed to a piece of creation) would not, in my view, be undone by that.

I don't remember it specifically stating that Aslan is actually omnipotent (although I'm not denying the obvious Jesus metaphor).

Still comes back tot he central point that anything Sauron ends up doing in Narnia will only be done because Aslan /allows/ it to happen.

[Hung Lo]

Clarification - Sauron's goal is to conquer Narnia as he has conquered Middle Earth (in the absence of The Ring).

Maybe Sauron wouldn't know how uber-powerful Aslan was - I didn't in my OP. Let's say Sauron knows that there is some legendary lion-guardian of the land (but no Narnian in living memory has seen Aslan, as is usually the case).

So he's in for a shock when a giant ass-kickin' lion shows up and crushes a hundred orcs. Or when all the scattered people of Narnia suddenly start to form into an army.

Then, Sauron might do well to spread dissention, heresy and doubt like an earlier poster suggested, once he realizes that he can't defeat Aslan directly in his home world.

Any kind of direct action would be doomed to fail, assuming Aslan can't be slain unless he chooses to make a point of it.

But at the same time, Aslan probably wouldn't get biblical on the forces of Morder, speaking a Word and having all the orcs drop dead in their tracks for instance. Or tearing apart thousands of orcs by himself.

Aslan has vast powers, but he doesn't choose to use them, from what I gather here. So that creates a more interesting battle...

[GoC]

I don't remember it specifically stating that Aslan is actually omnipotent (although I'm not denying the obvious Jesus metaphor).

It's implied but not stated so it isn't usable in a vs. thread. Alsan still wins though.

Hung Lo I recomend taking Narnia in it's golden age, only then will their forces mean anything and they get heroes as legendary as the nine.

[Rowanomicon]

It's implied but not stated so it isn't usable in a vs. thread.
That's what I thought.

Alsan still wins though.
Yeah, the problem is that Aslan is the epitome of "Oh snap, I'm the good guy, I can't lose!"

Aslan Vs Harry Potter!

There's is a prophecy older than time itself. Neither can be defeated by any means and they are both destined to defeat the other.

Toon in next week when plot armor goes TERRIBLY WRONG!