Who can take down Big Brother?

[bibliophile]

An earlier thread has raised the question; if V (for Vendetta) could take down Big Brother. I don't see any way he could, if you've read the book you'll recall the party had mikes and cameras everywhere, even in the forests. No matter where you go, Big Brother is watching you. V doesn't stand a chance.
This raises the question, who the heck could? Let's limit ourselves to humans or near humans, superheros or minor gods are out. My only canidates are Paul Maud'dib (Dune), and Hari "The Raven" Seldon (Foundation).

Thoughts, anyone?

[EvilElitest]

Is this realistically based or comic book based? If the former, i say Big Brother
from
EE

[bibliophile]

Reasonably realistic as it can be.

Assume Seldon has a calculator, assume Maud'dib has a supply of melange

[EvilElitest]

1. who
2. Then most likely V would lose, the government is extremly powerful and he doesn't ahve public support. Mind you i've only seen the movie

from
EE

[Mewtarthio]

No single, ordinary human can defeat Big Brother. A small army will immediately descend upon their position and take them off to the Ministry of Love. Some might be strong enough to not break (anyone who's grown up under Ingsoc's rule is doomed, both because they've been conditioned so well and because the Party can research Room 101's particular torture for them), but none will evade capture. Seldon would be able to tell them exactly how long they will last before their inevitable collapse, but he won't be the cause of that collapse.

Of course, so long as the Foundation series is considered "realistic," we could throw the Mule at them. He'd be ruling Oceania in a second. Then again, the Mule's not exactly human (he's a mutant before the Foundation and Earth retcon and a Gaian afterwards... though Gaians are sort of human...), so we could instead send out a First Speaker of the Second Foundation. Even if you ban telepathy, a First Speaker would be able to manipulate his way out of there thanks to his epic-level knowledge of psychology.

[Shraik]

Chuck Norris....What near humans or humans, no demi-gods.

It all depends, how well are these people fighting Big Brother supported(Do They have troops, guns, flying monkeys, etc.)?

[BRC]

I'm imagining a Sauron Vs Big Brother thread will appear any day now. Anyway, whoever could defeat Big Brother would only be able to do it by infiltrating the Party from the outside, achieving a position of promenance in the inner party, then dismantling it from within.

[EvilElitest]

I'm imagining a Sauron Vs Big Brother thread will appear any day now. Anyway, whoever could defeat Big Brother would only be able to do it by infiltrating the Party from the outside, achieving a position of promenance in the inner party, then dismantling it from within.

No Sauron vs. Big Brother, everyone please, think of the Children
from
EE

[bibliophile]

I'm imagining a Sauron Vs Big Brother thread will appear any day now. Anyway, whoever could defeat Big Brother would only be able to do it by infiltrating the Party from the outside, achieving a position of promenance in the inner party, then dismantling it from within.

That would be exactly how Maud'dib would work. That or create a huge religous revloution.

For more on Maud'dib see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit#Powers_of_the_Bene_Gesserit

[GrassyGnoll]

Kira, Doctor Who, Hannibal Lecter, Batman, and Lord Asrael. Would be my choices. Kira for his ability to operate under surveillance and mastery of the Xanatos Roulette. Doctor Who for his epic know how. Anyone surveying Lecter for too long would kill themselves, making him a sort of blind spot in Big Brother's society. Batman, because he's Batman.
And Asrael killed God, Big Brother would be cake for him

[bibliophile]

As I recall Lord Asreal did not kill him, two kids killed him on accident. Hardly impressive.

Lector and Batman are interesting possiblities.

[GrassyGnoll]

Well he killed Metatron, thus setting up for the kids for their little accident. In the series it was basically the same thing, he beat the supreme being of the multiverse.

[Mando Knight]

Lector and Batman are interesting possiblities.

Read Superman: Red Son for an anti-Big Brother Batman. He's depicted as a revolutionary fighting against Supe's Big Brother-esque Super-Russia.

Of course, since he was under-funded, against Superman without Kryptonite, and somewhat suicidal in Red Son, he did die...

[Revlid]

Read Superman: Red Son for an anti-Big Brother Batman. He's depicted as a revolutionary fighting against Supe's Big Brother-esque Super-Russia.

Of course, since he was under-funded, against Superman without Kryptonite, and somewhat suicidal in Red Son, he did die...

But on the other hand, he almost won against Commie! Silver Age Superman, who's essentially God, so Big Brother shouldn't be too hard.

V beats Big Brother, just as Scissors beats Paper.

[Icewalker]

No single, ordinary human can defeat Big Brother. A small army will immediately descend upon their position and take them off to the Ministry of Love. Some might be strong enough to not break (anyone who's grown up under Ingsoc's rule is doomed, both because they've been conditioned so well and because the Party can research Room 101's particular torture for them), but none will evade capture. Seldon would be able to tell them exactly how long they will last before their inevitable collapse, but he won't be the cause of that collapse.

That's...not how it works. This is completely true, yes, but you are assuming that they would face them down head-on. The only people who would have a chance are the ones that Big Brother cannot immediately identify and find as a security threat. Any that aren't...you're right, they'd immediately be taken in and then it's game over.

Seldon....now that is an interesting one. He'd probably fail. Although I wouldn't be surprised at the success of the First Speaker, and The Mule would just conquer the world in a matter of weeks.

[Ominous]

Where's the line between human and superhero? One universe's superhero is another's Spartan-II.

[Xuincherguixe]

I vote that super hero's can count if they don't use their super powers.

Which is what I assume the person who brought up "Kira" was thinking. As Yagami Light without a Deathnote, I'd say he's got a good chance. For basically the same reasons, L might be able to pull it off too.

[Lizard]

What about Light Yamagi from Death Note? (assuming he has a death note and a shinigami that lost it)
With the help of shinigami,he could avoid detection. And he could probably come with some elaborate, over-the-top Xanatos Roulette to overthrow Big Brother. He is MASTER of those.

[Emperor Ing]

who can kill Big Brother?

Darth Vader
Sauron
Yoda
The Imperium of Man
Paul Muad'Dib
Samus Aran
Master Chief
Gordon Freeman
The Arbiter
A Bid Daddy
The list can go on.

edit: oh and me. :smallamused:

[SilverSheriff]

I work on these types of situations all the time, my last project was a suitable enough Anti-Zombie route through the city I live in, the best travel hiding points, best time of day to move, ect...

this is going to be a long one though, I could do it, but then your going to have to assume that Big Brother didn't come and capture me as his first movement.

[Freshmeat]

In this setup, what are the win conditions against Big Brother?
Avoiding detection or avoiding suspicion?

If it's the latter, throw in another vote for Yagami Light/Kira.
Agent 47 might do a decent job as well, but not nearly as flawlessly as Kira.

[Jorkens]

Lord Vetinari from Discworld stands a pretty good chance. He trained as an assasin, so he's probably got as good a chance of slitting any throats that need slitting as the next guy. More importantly, he's pretty much peerless as a machiavellian manipulator, and would probably be up to either infiltrating the Party and subverting it from within or even building up an inoccuous looking faction outside the party that could actively threaten it.

[Project_Mayhem]

Well who took him down in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: The Black Dossier?

I know it wasn't Mina and Alan, as they were hiding.

[Finn Solomon]

V can take down Big Brother. That was the entire point of the entire bloody graphic novel; to show that one man (albeit slightly super-powered) acting as an agent of anarchy can take down a fascist, dominating government. Big Brother's minions are ordinary soldiers armed with ordinary weapons, V can chew up an army and keep on coming.

I deem 'victory' to be overthrowing BB's government, either by assassination, subversion, or plain all-out warfare. With that in mind...

Wolverine showed in 'Enemy of the State' that he can penetrate the most advanced security the Marvel Universe had to offer, so he's a good bet.

I'm contractually obliged to mention a Neil Gaiman character, so I'll throw in the names of Mr. Vandemar and Mr. Croup, the supernatural hitmen from 'Neverwhere'.

On the political side of things, I'm not sure Vetinari's victory is as easy as it seems. His genius lies in maintaining power, not seizing it. The Oceanian government is a far cry from the corrupt, disease-ridden Patricianship of the sort he wrested control from and reshaped in his own vision. If he could get accepted into the Party's inner circle though, I expect his assassin skills and manipulation to see him through.

Batman's another thing altogether. I don't think he'd take too kindly to joining the Party, but creating another faction is going to be just as difficult when even the Proles like the status quo as it is. No one is going to join the Bat-army like the Sons of Batman did in DKR. Unless Batman has access to his usual resources I don't think he can pull it off.

RE Project Mayhem: I believe BB died of natural causes around 1952 (the Oceanian government began in 1948, not '84), after which Gerry O'Brien took over. However he wasn't as good a leader and the government collapsed on its own, helped along by James Bond's boss Robert Cherry/Harry Lime.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And of course, A Wizard Can Do It.

[Narmoth]

Obviously a Big Brother structure would ahve to be taken down from within. But powerfull disenters would most likely be taken care of in the same way as in Brave New World, where party leaders becomming to bold either were were deported to an iceland they could work on, or iven a position in the goverment.
Somebody avare of the system, and both cynical enough to not succumb to the allure of relative freedom of deportation (they got full benefits and freedom at the cost of isolation from the majority of people) and idealistic enough to not be corrupted by power could take down such a dictatorship.
Remember, the main character of 1984 is weak. He wanted love, not to change the whole world.

[yoshi927]

Sarda, of course. Easily. All he has to do is make it so that there never was a Big Brother government.

Light could do it fairly well. He's a Xanatos Roulette genius, and he can just kill off the major leaders while avoiding detection. Rebellions will show up at some point, because the economy will worsen as weaker and weaker leaders step up.

Katsura from Gintama, perhaps. He's proven pretty good at staying undercover when faced with advanced technology, and he has some experience with bombings.

Well, that's excluding obvious choices like Superman, who could go to sleep while under continuous fire from heavy artillery.

[GoC]

What about Light Yamagi from Death Note? (assuming he has a death note and a shinigami that lost him)
With the help of shinigami,he could avoid detection. And he could probably come with some elaborate, over-the-top Xanatos Roulette to overthrow Big Brother. He is MASTER of those.

I second this and add Lelouch.

[Anteros]

No Light could not do it. Light is a moron and is directly responsable for everything bad that happens to him in the entire series. The only reason he is viewed as smart is that the other characters constantly refer to how smart he is.

1. He gave away what country he was in, in like one second.
2. He narrowed the police's potential suspects from the entire population of Japan to about 30 people, just to tease them.
3. Etc. ( I could go on, but this thread isn't about Light. Just suffice to say he is a moron.) L could possibly do it though.

Batman may have a chance as long as he has the batcave unbugged.

Also, maybe James Bond?

[Mewtarthio]

That's...not how it works. This is completely true, yes, but you are assuming that they would face them down head-on. The only people who would have a chance are the ones that Big Brother cannot immediately identify and find as a security threat. Any that aren't...you're right, they'd immediately be taken in and then it's game over.

The trouble is that they have to completely avoid drawing undue attention to themselves. It's not that they can't be immediately identified as a security threat; it's that they can never be identified as a security threat until it's already too late. That's why I put in my vote for the First Speaker: Even without telepathy, he'd be able to get accepted into the Inner Party, then he'd subvert everything from within. I'd even wager he'd avoid detection completely: Nobody would ever know what caused the collapse of the Party unless he told them himself.

[Freshmeat]

No Light could not do it. Light is a moron and is directly responsable for everything bad that happens to him in the entire series. The only reason he is viewed as smart is that the other characters constantly refer to how smart he is.

1. He gave away what country he was in, in like one second.
2. He narrowed the police's potential suspects from the entire population of Japan to about 30 people, just to tease them.
3. Etc. ( I could go on, but this thread isn't about Light. Just suffice to say he is a moron.) L could possibly do it though.

I'd say L is smarter than Light, but L never pulls off any over-the-top xanatos roulettes, possibly because it takes him half the series to figure out that Kira is killing people with an otherwordly notebook that causes people to die if you write their name in them (can't blame L for not thinking of that sooner!).
Therefore, since Light seems to have more experience with circuitous plots, I'd say Light would be more up to the job.

Light is absolutely not a moron. He underestimated L for a couple of seconds which turned out to L's advantage, but after that, he rarely, if ever made any mistakes. Light would have been discarded as a suspect ages ago if L and Near weren't so stubborn in their beliefs, even if they had a lot of difficulty in backing their theories up.

I'd say Light would utterly destroy a Big Brother regime.

[Tirian]

V can take down Big Brother. That was the entire point of the entire bloody graphic novel; to show that one man (albeit slightly super-powered) acting as an agent of anarchy can take down a fascist, dominating government. Big Brother's minions are ordinary soldiers armed with ordinary weapons, V can chew up an army and keep on coming.

You don't beat Big Brother by chewing up an Army, that just makes you a super-criminal. V's success was the result of becoming a champion of the "proles" by highlighting that the government was inept at every facet of serving the populace, not just the sole issue of apprehending him.

Would he achieve the same success in 1984? I think it would be harder in some ways. I don't think Big Brother has the domestic security apparatus that The Eye did, but at the same time it seems like the proles are quite totally conditioned to recoil at thoughts of freedom. He can't even deliver a passionate speech in Newspeak! All the same, I'll bet on him, because I think that you're right that Moore wrote the book deliberately to be about a force that could take on Big Brother.

As for other candidates, hurm. Batman goes up against totalitarian regimes a lot in alternate fiction, but he doesn't have a great track record. I think that in most of the stories his contribution is locating Superman and awakening his sense of activism. Also, throwing more names onto the list: Adrian Veidt could take down BB from inside.

[Anteros]

The problem with L and Light in Death Note is that even though they are supposed to be genuises, they are not written by an author that is capable of writing genius characters. If we take Light as he was meant to be, then perhaps he has a chance. However, Light as actually written makes numerous self destructive mistakes.

For example, he clearly tells the police that he has information on what they are doing just to tease them. This immediately limits the list of suspects from all of Japan to just the police and their families. He could have quietly sat in his room writing names and the chance of catching him would be literally 0% without monitoring every person in Japan. Instead, he chose to tease the police and got himself killed.

The second he did anything like this against BB, it would not matter if they could not prove who it was, they would just round up everyone involved and reprogram them all. They may never prove that Light was guilty, but they wouldn't have to either.

[H. Zee]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Azula from Avatar. She's already beaten a very Big Brother-esque government in Ba Sing Se in a matter of days.

...Actually, Azula wouldn't be able to take down Big Brother. She'd just rise to the top, make it Big Sister, and suddenly the 1984 world becomes even more screwed than it already was.

[warty goblin]

A single squad of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, then they'd just set up something worse...

[Freshmeat]

For example, he clearly tells the police that he has information on what they are doing just to tease them. This immediately limits the list of suspects from all of Japan to just the police and their families. He could have quietly sat in his room writing names and the chance of catching him would be literally 0% without monitoring every person in Japan. Instead, he chose to tease the police and got himself killed.

The second he did anything like this against BB, it would not matter if they could not prove who it was, they would just round up everyone involved and reprogram them all. They may never prove that Light was guilty, but they wouldn't have to either.

(minor Death Note spoilers ahead)
You may have a point there, depending on when this takes place. Light adopted a cautious-but-teasing approach in the beginning of the series, but became far more careful afterwards. Hence why it took them ages to catch him, and even then it was largely due to an unexpected stroke of luck on the investigator's part and because Light's accomplice unwittingly made a mistake.

If we assume that Light will take his opponents seriously from the start (which seems likely if he's up against a Big Brother regime) I still say he could do it.
However, the interesting thing is of course - as soon as he's on a shortlist of suspects, he's dead. Unlike L and Near, a BB regime doesn't go for a 'perfect victory'. They'll just kill off whoever they suspect to be responsible, proof or not. Still, as long as Light can keep his ego in check and there are no detectives around that equal or surpass L's investigative abilities, this seems perfectly possible to me.

[Anteros]

It does occur to me however that Light might be able to survive reprogramming by the BB regime, by renouncing the death note and finding it again later. This would provide him with a (very small) window to escape if he was captured as the BB regime liked to reprogram people, release them to be seen in order to prevent martyrs, and then take them in and kill them.

I don't think it would make the difference, but it's probably worth noting that he could theoretically be immune to reprogramming.

[darkblade]

First off you can't take down Big brother since he doesn't exist as anything more than a fictional persona created to appear as a figure head over Ocieania. Second the only way to actually stop the Party would be to kill every single member of the inner and outer party with an army that would have to be from a different universe because EVERYONE in this universe is controlled by the Party.

[Selrahc]

First off you can't take down Big brother since he doesn't exist as anything more than a fictional persona created to appear as a figure head over Ocieania. Second the only way to actually stop the Party would be to kill every single member of the inner and outer party with an army that would have to be from a different universe because EVERYONE in this universe is controlled by the Party.

Except for the siputed zone. If I was an incredibly skilled and effective leader of a rebellion, and found myself in a world as staunchly mind controlled as the states of Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia are, then I would start my rebellion in the area that is never under the thuimb of one regime. The conditioning would be weaker there, and the population is large.

However, their ability to resist is low, since a large military force is stationed there. What it does provide is a place to act as a base. With control, and thus surveillance much les, this is where to base your training camps. This is where to stockpile equipment, where to take people for deprograming.

From there then, you need a way to get into and out of the superstates.

But it could maybe be done.

[bibliophile]

You don't beat Big Brother by chewing up an Army, that just makes you a super-criminal. V's success was the result of becoming a champion of the "proles" by highlighting that the government was inept at every facet of serving the populace, not just the sole issue of apprehending him.

Would he achieve the same success in 1984? I think it would be harder in some ways. I don't think Big Brother has the domestic security apparatus that The Eye did, but at the same time it seems like the proles are quite totally conditioned to recoil at thoughts of freedom. He can't even deliver a passionate speech in Newspeak! All the same, I'll bet on him, because I think that you're right that Moore wrote the book deliberately to be about a force that could take on Big Brother.

As for other candidates, hurm. Batman goes up against totalitarian regimes a lot in alternate fiction, but he doesn't have a great track record. I think that in most of the stories his contribution is locating Superman and awakening his sense of activism. Also, throwing more names onto the list: Adrian Veidt could take down BB from inside.

Adrian Veidt! How could I forget Ozymanidas?! Yes he is certainly a contender.


Havelock Venatari has a decent shot at it.


I am defining as a superhero anyone who could destroy the party by force, superman, master chief and space marines are out.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Can we include Jack Thompson? He says such mind numbing stupidity that the proles would revolt against the party for allowing such an idiot to be born.

[Studoku]

Big Brother would have Jack Thompson killed and gain support from everyone for doing so. Unless...

Jack Thompson is Big Brother.:smalleek:

[Moff Chumley]

An airforce pilot in a bomber stuffed with nukes? Should level Air Strip One with relatively little difficulty. Also, it would be hilarious if the IoM ever ran into 1984verse...


Anyway, Rick Wakeman beat 1984 with every other album he did.

[Illiterate Scribe]

A single squad of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, then they'd just set up something worse...

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRNNNN!

Alone, he could probably unseat anything.

[Rutee]

I've been seeing it come up before, so just for clarity's sake, can we stop with the "Super powered people beat Big Brother"? It's a given. The OP explicitly says "Nobody that can't be challenged by 'modern' military, and no uber powerful beings".

[puppyavenger]

Mrs. Tachyon

[Azerian Kelimon]

Just about any rock band could do it too, but particularly Guns 'n Roses if it does Sweet Child o' Mine (That song seems to be the universal mood lifter. Imagine the effect on a brainwashed guy!), Queen if it does We Will Rock You, or Primus with John The Fisherman. The wierdness factor will climb so high people will act normally.

[Chronos]

Is this realistically based or comic book based? If the former, i say Big Brother
from
EEGot it in one. Big Brother is its own worst enemy. The society cannot thrive, and will eventually destroy itself from the inside, the same way totalitarian regimes always do if not destroyed externally first.

[Flickerdart]

Adrian Veidt! How could I forget Ozymanidas?! Yes he is certainly a contender.


Havelock Venatari has a decent shot at it.


I am defining as a superhero anyone who could destroy the party by force, superman, master chief and space marines are out.

Vetinari*. Though, no question there. Rincewind, were he ever in such a story, would probably manage just because.

Did anyone mention Gordon Freeman yet?

[Xuincherguixe]

One problem for people suggesting assassination campaigns.

Big Brother may not even be a real person.

One could kill off the people who are the leaders, but first you have to find them.


It's not terribly likely, but if there are no "heads". So in other words the entire bureaucracy is Big Brother. Even if he was "killed" Big Brother still lives. Big Brother's existence is the idea of Big Brother. So, we need someone who can kill ideas.

Now, I know this is going to get a flood of people like Jack Thompson, but the person needs to be able to evade the ministry of love, and have an awareness of the situation before being able to manipulate events.



Since someone suggested Batman, how about the Joker? Some incarnations are masterminds.

[Flickerdart]

Well, Richard Rahl from the Sword of Truth series could do pretty well, even without any magic. Anyone that's read the series would know what I'm talking about.

[warty goblin]

Well, Richard Rahl from the Sword of Truth series could do pretty well, even without any magic. Anyone that's read the series would know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure I would be able to tell the difference between a government run by Richard Rahl and one by Big Brother...Granted I didn't read the last three books, so he might have improved, but from the comments I somehow doubt it...

[BRC]

[QUOTE=Anteros;4020346]
1. He gave away what country he was in, in like one second.
[QUOTE]
He was tricked by L, falling for a trick does neccesarily make you an idiot. Mind you, he isn't as clever as he imagines himself to be, but thats another subject.


Anyway, considering Big Brother dosn't technically exist but is the creation of a massive conspiricy consisting of people who are both part of it and duped by it (Read, the ministry of truth), Nobody really comes to mind.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not sure I would be able to tell the difference between a government run by Richard Rahl and one by Big Brother...Granted I didn't read the last three books, so he might have improved, but from the comments I somehow doubt it...
Haha, but you're dodging the issue. we're only looking for people who can bring down the Big Brother, not people who can do better as a government.

[GrassyGnoll]

I'd like to take a closer look at Lecter. He'd probably slide his way into some sort of party medical care position. From there he'd addict and manipulate pawns to gather him seemingly nonchalant information. On the weekends he could unwind and convert proles to his cause, or murder a couple to let off some stress. His moment would come when an Inner Party meeting took place. He's not brash enough to simply poison the Kool Aid, he'd use it as a cover to fraternize with the upper crust and implant suicidal urges. Once he's sunk half of the party into apathy and controls a prole mob by proxy he'll wait for the next meeting and stage a hostile takeover.

What he'd really shine at would be interrogation. O'Brien would be sobbing in a corner by the time he was finished. Letting an influence like him near the Ministry of Love would be a fatal mistake for the party.

[thubby]

big brother isn't fought by one man. it is destroyed by the will of the public. so someone with sweeping mind control powers.

[Runar]

Going back to what Bigredcommie (I think I got his name right....) said earlier, one of the best would be to infiltrate it from the inside, perhaps even become second in command, then kill the leader(s).

Or, a L-Light duo from Death Note could prolly do it as well.

[Finn Solomon]

I don't see why assassination campaigns wouldn't work, even if BB is just a myth. By constantly beheading Party Member after Party Member, you're gonna run out of them eventually. Then the government collapses in on itself.

[darkblade]

I don't see why assassination campaigns wouldn't work, even if BB is just a myth. By constantly beheading Party Member after Party Member, you're gonna run out of them eventually. Then the government collapses in on itself.

You're going to behead about two thirds of the world? You can't really take down the Party without reducing the world to a nuclear wasteland. Big Brother is a symbol of dictatorship, as long as a new society is able to rise up from the survivors of the current world a new Party who is basically the same will rise up again. That was the entire point of the book, you can't stop tyranny if you let it come to you.