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View Full Version : Should Comprehend Languages and Tongues remain in the next edition of the game?



Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 12:23 AM
I enjoy throwing ruins with ancient languages in them at players, rewarding the guy who decided to take ancient languages (and, if not, then encouraging them to take rubbings and bring them to some NPC to translate and give them hints). However, these spells rather thwart the purpose of learning more languages and doing such things.

What do you all think of tongues and comprehend languages? Are they invaluable spells which make gameplay more efficient or annoying spells which foil potentially interesting RP situations?

Mewtarthio
2008-03-04, 12:50 AM
I'm curious about the fate of "utility" spells myself. There's no way a spell like comprehend languages could be an encounter spell, as there's no need to use it in the middle of combat (unless you've got a very strange combat situation). Thus, it would be either at-will or daily.

At-will powers seem to rely on the most basic traits of a character's archetype: Rogues quickly slip past defenses and slide blades into opponents, while Wizard cast generic spells of hurting people (I assume). Speaking any language doesn't seem applicable to any class, really, unless they bring back monks, so at-will is out.

Would anyone ever really expend a daily power, taking up valuable daily power slots, just to cast comprehend languages? I guess you could, but that means you're sacrificing the ability to do some big, impressive attack that really helps you out in combat.

In short: No, I doubt that comprehend languages is in 4e, unless Wizards get to pick and choose their daily spells from a spellbook (and even then, it doesn't really fit the role). I'm also wondering why I chose to write comprehend languages three times instead of just tongues.

Mojo_Rat
2008-03-04, 01:24 AM
From what has been said, alot of out of combat spells are becoming something called a Ritual. Or at least this was said of the cleric. (so example raise Dead Or speak with dead would be rituals). So likely if tongues or comprehend languages remain They will be one of these.

The only problem Is that having them as something every wizard can do in an eyeblink at Will would probly be bad for the game.

horseboy
2008-03-04, 01:32 AM
Well, using the "wizards loose most of their mind affecting spells to make room for psionics" I predict that they will become bard abilites and removed from wizard's books.

TheOOB
2008-03-04, 02:20 AM
Like is was said before, out of combat utility abilities will be rituals and not spells in 4e for the most part. This means a few things, first it means you won't have to give up your combat ability to gain utility like in previous editions, second it means that utility abilities will be balanced with other utility abilities and not combat abilities, and third it will mean there will be different rules in place that make more sense for utility abilities(I would assume that rituals take an amount of time to perform, as well as certain special components and a prepared space).

Eldariel
2008-03-04, 02:30 AM
I personally remove Common from most of my games. There's simply no way better part of the multiverse speaks the same language, so axe it gets. By the same token, both of those spells get a level increase. All in all, it makes 'Speak Languages' more powerful (although I double the cost of buying new languages; 2 in class, 4 cross-class, half the normal max ranks), makes communication actually a relevant issue and also gives further bonus for high Int, and the class ability 'Voice of the City' and such.

This all requires axing easy Magical ways of circumventing the need to actually spend time to learning language. So I strongly believe the spells should leave taking Common with them (and all the racial languages and all that bullcrap; makes no sense that all people of the same race speak the same language, I mean look at the historical Europe or America. Same race, different tribes, different languages - language is more geographic a matter than anything). Basically, all I'm asking for is a language system that makes sense.

Starsinger
2008-03-04, 04:51 AM
I mean look at the historical Europe or America. Same race, different tribes, different languages - language is more geographic a matter than anything). Basically, all I'm asking for is a language system that makes sense.

Does this mean each of the thousands of elven subraces has their own language?

tyckspoon
2008-03-04, 05:21 AM
Does this mean each of the thousands of elven subraces has their own language?

Different dialects and offshoots of the same root language, most likely. Assuming there once was a unified elven culture and language before they got splintered into Wood, Hill, High, Grey, Swamp, Basement, and Third Floor Apartment Elves, anyway. If they've always been split up like that, there's no reason for any elven subgroup's language to have any resemblance to any other elven language.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 05:43 AM
Different dialects and offshoots of the same root language, most likely. Assuming there once was a unified elven culture and language before they got splintered into Wood, Hill, High, Grey, Swamp, Basement, and Third Floor Apartment Elves, anyway. If they've always been split up like that, there's no reason for any elven subgroup's language to have any resemblance to any other elven language.

You forgot the Avariel, Desert, Arctic, Aquatic, Dustwallow, and Wild Elves. I mean, do you even have a copy of "Elves and Their Subraces*"? Or are you just winging it?:smallbiggrin:

*Second Largest D&D book, after "The Big Book of Wizard Spells We Forgot, and Didn't Add in Every Other Splat Book"

Aquillion
2008-03-04, 05:52 AM
Making it a ritual seems to make the most sense to me. This way, it serves its original intended purpose (the entire game doesn't get ground to a halt by language barriers), but it doesn't negate skills (taking ten minutes or more to cast a spell so you can understand the angry lizardman's language is not always an option.)

Ossian
2008-03-04, 05:55 AM
I enjoy throwing ruins with ancient languages in them at players, rewarding the guy who decided to take ancient languages (and, if not, then encouraging them to take rubbings and bring them to some NPC to translate and give them hints). However, these spells rather thwart the purpose of learning more languages and doing such things.

What do you all think of tongues and comprehend languages? Are they invaluable spells which make gameplay more efficient or annoying spells which foil potentially interesting RP situations?

Welcome brother to this house of sorrows. I do love languages and think they should make for an invaluable adventure-building tool. Speaking languages is what brought you Marco Polo and Indiana Jones, is what makes negotiating through vast continents with dozens of subcultures feasible and a definite asset for adventurers. So, I'll tell you what I do.

1) Axe the common away. Better explained by Eldariel (whom I qft). It might work on a small scale though. That is, wéstron in Gondor and Arnor (Middle Earth) somewhere near the 1st half of 3rd age is ok. And "Daro" in Mystara, if your adventuring band stays between Darokin, Karameikos and the border of Thyatis.

2) Make them pay dear money for such spells, especially if they are going to be a permanent possession of your wizard's repertoire. They won't spend a daily Fireball slot for that, but it still spoils ALL fun. Get a charcoal-paper copy of the script (remember the Crusader shield in Venice, in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?) and take it easy at hom, between adventures.
Such spells which can decipher no matter how dead and arcane and alien language in a full round should really be limited. Perhaps you get to roll a "decipher script" with a stellar DC (IF you have cast the spell, otherwise no roll allowed) and get a sense of what the writing says (plus an extra bit for every 5 pts you beat the DC). Seriously, you can be fluent in Gothic, Chinese Mandarin and Sanskrit, speak all dialects of the Aztec and Maya villages and know your Maori well enough, but what are you supposed to guess about a cuneiform inscription 2000 years older than the city of Ur itself? Nothing (unless you have months to spend on it and good and expensive reference books, plus a pool of experts to help you).

3) Abolish the 1 skillpoint buy for languages. Makes no sense whatsoever. There are far too many classes ith a 2+INT skill points per level, no way one is going to use one on a language. Besides, speaking a language takes a lot more than that.


I copied the old Talsorian Cyberpunk system and blended with a number of idea found in some precious books by Oliver Morik. So, my PCs start like that.

The speak/write/understand a number of languages equal to their INT bonus +1. Imagine a smart PC with an INT of 14 (+2).
Then I proceed to rank their level of fluency. Roll 1d20 for each languahe known (in this case three).
Add to each roll:

+INT Bonus
+5 if it is their first language (native)
+0 if it is their second language
-2 for every language over the second (-4 for the 4th, -6 for the 5th...)
+1 for kin-languages of your native speech (that is, learning Spanish after Italian, or Flemish after German)
-1 to -4 for languages that differ a lot from your native speech (imagine you are born in Hishima and want to start with the knowledge of the langue d'oc, that's another -4).
-1 to -4 for archaic, alien, dead or vastly different or conceptually the opposite languages (you were born in Minsk and want to start with the knowledge of the language of the Mohawks or with Sumeric, ANOTHER -4).

Miscellanea bonuses: from +1 to +4 (it's up to the DM) for a specifically language learning oriented upbringing, such as a town where many ethinc groups prosper, a mercantile crossroads, a school of languages and higher learning, there is a huge library, your parents from two different nationalities, you were born in A and raised in B (that is, you are born in Copenhagen where you spend every summer, grow up in Geneva, go all the way through college there, graduate in literature where you took semesters in Italian, and your Dad is Spanish and your mom is Norwegian....hell, you speak 6 just because you're alive...)

In the example, the guy always rolls a 10. So he gets
Native: 17 (10+5+2)
Second language (kin language): 13 (10+0+1+2)
Third language (archaic language): 8 (10+2-2-2)

The ranking i as follows:

17-20: high academic learning. You not only know how to write and understand, but also how to be compelling, precise , punctual or flourished in such language. Even if you might not be a pot in your own right, your papers and speech will always sound good and you will be able to adjust them to fit your audience. Able to criticize and analyse most literature in this language.

15-16: written and spoken fluency. Language mastery. That's what a person of average intelligence normnally can do with his native language. Work, have fun, elaborate.

12-14: still fluent. You can work with that, and you can elaborate. Yet some passages will take a bit long to be chewed and digested, and most of the higher levels of literature will be available for entertainment but not for elaboration or analysis. Basically what international development workers all over the world call the "Brussels English" or the "European Union English". You studied it since you were you, you master it decently, you can write short papers and reports.

9-11: some problems in understanding. Frequent grammatical mistakes in writing. You can make yourself clear, and with a good dictionary you can get past most of the papers you stumble upon, but it takes longer and you're never too sure of the result. A bit like the middle english spoken by the average woodchopper in the average small village of your average fantasy campaign (methinks....)

7-8: BIG problems in understanding a real native speaker that talks fastly and in an elaborate manner. No jargon or slang expressions. Probably moste curse words though. Very slow at reading and at writing, and anyway nothing too difficult.

5-6: you can barely speak the language. Your vocab is very limited. No way you can write it. Given time you can understand the sense of a writing, but don't trust too much your guessing.

2-4: you know the same old 5 phrases you read in the dictionary's phrase book but you have almost no clue of what you are saying. You know probably ten words (danger? this way? hi? F**k u? no/yes, thanks, your female relatives definitely sell their bodies to apes on street corners for cheap money (surprisingly similar to yes/no or thanks in some languages)

1 and below: you know the name of the language (hey, this looks arabic!) but you are wrong 50% of the times (moron, it's hebrew!)

How do you improve?
This is all talsorian. It takes a number of "inbcrement points" equal to your current language level x10, with a x2/x4 multiplier for some languages (like, Russian is x3, arabic is x3, Chinese is x4, but Spanish is x1/2 to an Italian). Thus to improve your Darokin from 10 to 11 you need 10x10: 100 increment points. To improve your infernal from 7 to 8 you need: 7x10x4: 280 increment points.

How do you get them?

Spending time in that country, and practising. Usually one day of good efforts and some succesfully roleplayed attempts can earn you 1 to 4 IP

Study: if you get a manual and study you can earn the same amount of IP per a day of intensive study, but this can only get you 3 or 4 points of that language overall.

Get a master: he can oly take you to HIS level of language + his WIS mod. Every day of lessons is 1 IP.

How long was this post? Dunno....

Hope that helps.

Ossian

Kizara
2008-03-04, 06:05 AM
My work on the subject:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74094

The thread is still very new, so feel free to post.


As for 4ed, I honestly don't care.

Roderick_BR
2008-03-04, 06:27 AM
Well, using the "wizards loose most of their mind affecting spells to make room for psionics" I predict that they will become bard abilites and removed from wizard's books.
This is something I always found funny. Why a wizard have that spell, but dosen't have the skill for it? AD&D was like that too. A bard could use his read document (don't remember the exact name) skill to translate something. A wizard would cast comprehend languages. How they learn how to read those old tomes in ancient languages in the first place is a mistery to me.