PDA

View Full Version : ToB vs Batman



asphen fox
2008-03-04, 06:49 AM
What maneuvers and stances could aid a Martial Adept in killing Batman in a One on One fight (I've played Batman already so I know what he's capable of but we'll take in consideration that this particular batman is not as experienced as me.)?


*Note: I know what stuff makes Batman broken so I'd say I'm pretty much experienced already (e.g. Contingencies, Celerity, Glitterdust, Mordenkeinen's Disjunction).

Talic
2008-03-04, 06:53 AM
No.

Just... No.

If the batman is played with any level of intelligence, then the saying of how to beat him with a melee goes like this:

Melee Guy: Is that a spellcaster? How do I beat her?

Melee Gal: With a stick, while she sleeps. But with a book, and her spells? That mage cannot be beaten.

Brownie for the identifier of the loose movie reference.

AslanCross
2008-03-04, 06:56 AM
Hi James. What level? I'd focus on Diamond Mind in general to get chances to reroll saves, as well as Iron Heart for Iron Heart Surge. Stone Dragon's Mountain Hammer series will allow you to blow past any Stoneskin he raises, but there are many other things he might pull on you. The problem is he might resort to miss chance spells (blur and the like, or even worse, he uses baleful blink on you. (Thankfully you can use Iron Heart Surge to dismiss this or save with one of Diamond Mind's "Concentration-to-save" counters.

Remember also that Batman will most likely have teleport prepared. If you don't kill him instantly, celerity+teleport will save his skin and you wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.

Also, he could just gate in a Pit Fiend and pelt you with controlling spells while the Pit Fiend tears you a new one.

This is of course assuming you're at Lv 20.

asphen fox
2008-03-04, 06:58 AM
:smallsmile: You have to keep in mind though that ToB characters are more or less like spellcasters due to their martial maneuvers and stances. Some maneuvers actually mirror some of the spells (well... sort of) and they also have very nice counters (diamond mind's Diamond defense, action before thought, moment of perfect mind)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 07:03 AM
A ToBBer is screwed, period. The only one that has an even remote chance at blasting a wizard would be a Swordsage, and only because Balance In The Sky let's them fly without any help and they have shadow jaunt. The rest will lose, because they won't be able to get away from the spells and close to the wizard.

AslanCross
2008-03-04, 07:03 AM
Yes, we know that ToB guys are close to spellcasters, but Batman is still Batman. ToB characters just don't get to pull off something like celerity-time stop-gate-whatever even at Lv 20.

Grey Paladin
2008-03-04, 07:04 AM
Stalker in the Dark or a one hit KO are your only options.

Talic
2008-03-04, 07:04 AM
But those defenses run out. And there's little the melee character will do to actually HURT the caster. Caster just has too many options for escape, contingency, and evasion, and the ToB, too few. The Batman sets the tempo, and thus, wins the match.

Superior resources, superior diversity, superior power.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-04, 07:04 AM
Maneuvers and stances? The Thicket of Blades stance is about it; it prevents them from 5'-stepping (and maybe Tumbling, depending on interpretation) out of your reach. I guess landing a Feral Death Blow might kill them if they're not prepared for that sort of thing, or doing massive damage with Diamond Nightmare Blade.

You want the Thicket of Blades stance (Devoted Spirit 3), and the following feats: Improved Trip, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (which requires Blind-Fight). That way, you're almost guaranteed to hit the mage, the mage can't 5' step or tumble (depending on interpretation) away without provoking an AoO (which you respond to with Stand Still or tripping, keeping her in place), the mage can't cast defensively.

You need to get close and then ready an action vs. the mage spellcasting, or she can get away with a swift-action or Quickened spell. If she has the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature from the PHB II, even that might not help.

AslanCross
2008-03-04, 07:06 AM
I agree, Feral Death Blow or Diamond Nightmare might be your only chances of one-hitting him. Mountain Tombstone Strike might work if his CON is low. Apart from that I don't think any of the other disciple capstone maneuvers will be effective.

Talic
2008-03-04, 07:07 AM
Tell ya what. ToB counter to :

Celerity, Timestop, Summon Monster 9, Summon Monster 9, Ethereal Jaunt

??

EDIT: Note, Wizard HP at level 20 should be around 150, minimum. One hit kill can be exceedingly difficult.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 07:07 AM
Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over. Methinks a Swordsage that takes a maneuver giving PrC and one level of warblade for Iron Heart Surge will have a better chance. Being able to fly on your own and having shadow jaunt is no joke. Plus, they can become invisible and more.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-04, 07:26 AM
Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over.

That's what the Mage Slayer feat is for. They can't cast defensively, and if they don't, they provoke an AoO (and therefore have their spell disrupted). The readied action is in case they try a quickened Dimension Door/Teleport/etc.

Talic
2008-03-04, 08:24 AM
A couple of assumptions:

1) You get in melee range.

2) The mage doesn't have a contingent translocation spell (I usually do, contingent to one of two things. My unconsciousness, if I expect casters, or me uttering the word "fluffy" otherwise... As you can speak as a free action, out initiative sequence.

namo
2008-03-04, 08:46 AM
You want the Thicket of Blades stance (Devoted Spirit 3), and the following feats: Improved Trip, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection, and maybe Pierce Magical Concealment (which requires Blind-Fight). That way, you're almost guaranteed to hit the mage, the mage can't 5' step or tumble (depending on interpretation) away without provoking an AoO (which you respond to with Stand Still or tripping, keeping her in place), the mage can't cast defensively.

You need to get close and then ready an action vs. the mage spellcasting, or she can get away with a swift-action or Quickened spell. If she has the Abrupt Jaunt alternate class feature from the PHB II, even that might not help.

Combat Reflexes too.

Against Abrupt Jaunt, you use the nifty Shadow Cloak (Drows of the Underdark) that allows 10' immediate teleporting. Lockdown can actually tear apart many wizards. If the wizard has Shapechange cast, the matter is of course different...

Darrin
2008-03-04, 08:46 AM
Actually, thicket won't help. They can still dimdoor out of it, and it's over. Methinks a Swordsage that takes a maneuver giving PrC and one level of warblade for Iron Heart Surge will have a better chance. Being able to fly on your own and having shadow jaunt is no joke. Plus, they can become invisible and more.

Setting Sun has a counter to dimension door: Mirrored Pursuit. Contingency + Teleport is more troublesome, although you can try threatening to Iron Heart Surge the sun and gravity.

The best counter for Batman is probably going to be a Crusader/RKV in the Immortal Fortitude stance, although he'd still be vulnerable to Slay Living/Finger of Death... but his Fort save is going to be awfully high. If the Crusader/RKV manages to land just one White Raven Hammer on Batman, it's all over for the mage. He can just burn turn attempts to keep stunning, no save.

A RKV/Shadow Pouncer might also do well: standard action to Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Hammer, move and swift actions to shadow pounce. Combine with Invis, Incorporeal, and Hide in Plain Sight, and Batman may have trouble just finding his opponent.

Batman still has Contingency+Teleport, but that's the "Escape" button, not the "Win" button. Celerity+Time Stop is still the "Win" button.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-04, 09:14 AM
Batman still has Contingency+Teleport, but that's the "Escape" button, not the "Win" button. Contingency+Time Stop is still the "Win" button.

Time Stop is too high-level for contingency.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-04, 09:17 AM
Craft contingency/craft contingent spell?

Darrin
2008-03-04, 12:09 PM
Time Stop is too high-level for contingency.

Sorry, I meant Celerity+Timestop.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 12:16 PM
The way is to have a wizard cohort with you.

BadJuJu
2008-03-04, 12:36 PM
Tell ya what. ToB counter to :

Celerity, Timestop, Summon Monster 9, Summon Monster 9, Ethereal Jaunt

??

EDIT: Note, Wizard HP at level 20 should be around 150, minimum. One hit kill can be exceedingly difficult.

The defense for the cheese spells? Take one of your big D20's, I know most gamers have one. If you dont have one, use a hand full of little ones. You rattle them all in your hand for a second and then throw them on the table. When your opponent looks at them, hit them with your chair and then hide their spell list. Viola, I beat Batman...

Tyger
2008-03-04, 12:41 PM
Melee Guy: Is that a spellcaster? How do I beat her?

Melee Gal: With a stick, while she sleeps. But with a book, and her spells? That mage cannot be beaten.

Brownie for the identifier of the loose movie reference.

Knight's Tale. I like my brownies with milk please.

That said, to the OP, yeah, melee classes vs. a prepared wizard are pretty one sided affairs. Of course, all things being equal (which they never are) it is possible that a ToB character could kill a equal level wizard Batman... not too damned likely, but possible.

streakster
2008-03-04, 12:54 PM
A diamond mind swordsage nova - combine sudden leap, moment of alacrity, moment of perfect mind - I forget all the details, they're over at the CharOp Boards, but it's two full attacks against Batman. Course, if he survives, you've lost.

Other than that, counters for saves. Might try rogue/Sowrdsage shadow hand, and hope that he doesn't have much to beat invisibilty while hitting him with Mountain Tombstones and Five Shadow strikes. See the Clash of the nine swords part two thread for a good example. That build focuses on DEX and WIS.

But yeah, you're gonna lose against an optimized, well-played Batman. Good luck.

EDIT: BTW, Idea number two? He's gonna have counters for invisibility. Just didn't want to give false hope there.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-04, 01:46 PM
In order for a high level wizard to lose a combat against anything (even another high level wizard), the wizard has to make a mistake. If the wizard is Batman, it won't make a mistake.

I love ToB, and while Warblade is probably the strongest published melee base class, it's still not close to the maximum power a wizard reaches. If it was, then Warblade would be way, way, way broken.

Blue Paladin
2008-03-04, 01:50 PM
The defense for the cheese spells? Take one of your big D20's, I know most gamers have one. If you dont have one, use a hand full of little ones. You rattle them all in your hand for a second and then throw them on the table. When your opponent looks at them, hit them with your chair and then hide their spell list. Viola, I beat Batman...Classic misdirection. How very ninja! I approve.

Best way I can think of is Shadow Stride/Blink next to them while under a Antimagic Field. Smack him with White Raven Hammer (lvl 8) or Irresistible Mountain Strike (lvl 6). Finish him with maneuver(s) of choice in round two.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 02:48 PM
Classic misdirection. How very ninja! I approve.

Best way I can think of is Shadow Stride/Blink next to them while under a Antimagic Field. Smack him with White Raven Hammer (lvl 8) or Irresistible Mountain Strike (lvl 6). Finish him with maneuver(s) of choice in round two.

Problem: Shadow stride=Supernatural=not happening while AMFed.

Problem 2: You also need thicket of blades and the no tumble ruling to prevent him from just getting out of the way.

Problem 3: He will be 30ft up in the air, so unless you can non-magically (non-supernaturally) fly, best case, you are both going to fall down, then he's going to tumble/withdraw out of the field and go flying again.

Dhavaer
2008-03-04, 03:03 PM
Problem: Shadow stride=Supernatural=not happening while AMFed.

The teleportation maneuvers aren't supernatural, for some reason.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 03:14 PM
The teleportation maneuvers aren't supernatural, for some reason.

Problem: I want to punch whoever made that decision. Is flying also Extraordinary?

Frosty
2008-03-04, 03:15 PM
Thicket of blades prevents ALL movement. I've not played with a DM that rules it any other way. And yes, you want to be able to fly naturally. That's why you should be a Raptoran. Gotta love natural flight.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 05:59 PM
Swordsages get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, no? I only know of one thing available to a Batman that can beat good stealth skills, the Mindsight feat combined with some means of getting telepathy (typically a Mindbender dip). And Swordsage probably has some sort of counter to that, too.

Of course, stealth by itself gets you a draw at most, and you want a win. So you need to be able to either do something to the wizard without blowing your cover, do something that will win you the fight before he can react, or do something that will let you hide again before he can react. My preferred method for "attacking" a wizard is to mess with his components and/or magic items: Steal, sunder, or shatter his component pouch, etc. I don't know how capable Swordsages are at this, though.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-04, 06:10 PM
The trouble with ToB vs Batman is essentially that in order for there to be a fight the Wizard has to have already done something dumbass, no scratch that, a series of half a dozen things that are artificially dumbass. Not just at the tactical level of buffs and contingencies, but at the strategic one of finding the damn guy in the first place, given magics ability to communicate and travel over huge distances and across planes combined with its ability to cover its tracks from any mundane response puts complete control of when and where in the hands of the wizard. And scry-n-die pretty much ensures a splatted swordswinger. And even if they don't, even if the meleer pulls a rabbit out of his $%* and wins, they still haven't got much to oppose a wizard that was using Astral projection or clone, Contingencies (or god forbid Craft Contingent Spell), etc, etc....

Magic controls all the information, both gathering it and hiding it, it controls the travel to and from the genesis plane the wizard sleeps on, it ensures the Wizard is totally (or the next best) to Unpinpointable/unhittable/unhurtable, and it makes certain the wizard isn't put down perminantly.

That being said being Batman strikes me as an awefully boring way of running a PC, much better to team up and smack the hell out of something green.:smallbiggrin:

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 06:10 PM
Wouldn't your equipment list start with "item which creates a permanent antimagic field"?

mostlyharmful
2008-03-04, 06:16 PM
Wouldn't your equipment list start with "item which creates a permanent antimagic field"?

That'd actually sink you faster against a prepared caster than not having it at all. It renders you devoid of magic while they can still throw Orbs of X and called outsiders, Cloudkills and Prismatic sprays at you. All while they flit about at four hundred feet invisibily. Antimaigic fields are a liability against smart wizards, when they really shine is against magic using monsters, Gish or CoDzillas or funnily enough melee builds in general, since so much of a high level fighters power is buff or item based Antimagic is crippling if you don't have good ways of locking down your environment, and to do that you've got to find the wizard in the first place.:smallfrown:

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-04, 06:31 PM
That'd actually sink you faster against a prepared caster than not having it at all. It renders you devoid of magic while they can still throw Orbs of X and called outsiders, Cloudkills and Prismatic sprays at you. All while they flit about at four hundred feet invisibily. Antimaigic fields are a liability against smart wizards, when they really shine is against magic using monsters, Gish or CoDzillas or funnily enough melee builds in general, since so much of a high level fighters power is buff or item based Antimagic is crippling if you don't have good ways of locking down your environment, and to do that you've got to find the wizard in the first place.:smallfrown:

Orbs won't work, neither will Cloudkill or Prismatic Spray. Prismatic Wall and Prismatic Sphere will work, though neither is offensive (and you still can't cast them in an anti-magic field; an anti-magic field just can't take an extant one down). I'd imagine the best tactic with an anti-magic field would be to have HIPS as an extraordinary ability, walk up to them while in a wilderness setting, and grapple them and kill them that way.

EDIT: Re-reading the creation template, I can see why it'd be ambigious, but it is instantaneous - the whole spell is, the same as fireball. I'm not really sure that would evade an anti-magic sphere, but orbs might work. Cloudkill, conversely, certainly does not.

In any event, ideally you would not be seen until you were up close to the wizard anyway, though I suspect there are spells which make that incredibly difficult.

Blue Paladin
2008-03-04, 06:53 PM
Problem: Shadow stride=Supernatural=not happening while AMFed.Oddly, none of the SH teleports are supernatural. A fact I enjoy abusing.


Problem 2: You also need thicket of blades and the no tumble ruling to prevent him from just getting out of the way.I'm guessing you missed the significance of the maneuvers I mentioned.

Irresistible Mountain Strike not only deals a little extra damage, it sets the target's speed to zero. With the AMF negating spellcasting, Batman can take a swing or two at the martial adept; for some reason, I'm not terribly worried about this. This one only works if both of you are on the ground.

White Raven Hammer stuns the target. Period. It's awesome like that.


Problem 3: He will be 30ft up in the air, so unless you can non-magically (non-supernaturally) fly, best case, you are both going to fall down, then he's going to tumble/withdraw out of the field and go flying again.This could be a problem. The Shadow Hand stance for Air Walk at will is supernatural, and can't be used in AMF.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 06:58 PM
Again, play a race with wings. There's with LA +0 you know.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 09:14 PM
Thicket of blades prevents ALL movement. I've not played with a DM that rules it any other way. And yes, you want to be able to fly naturally. That's why you should be a Raptoran. Gotta love natural flight.

So in other words you expect Thicket of Blades to be a blanket Stand Still? Then why even take Stand Still? Also, I haven't looked at ToB for a while, but I'm fairly sure I would remember if a stance was that retarded. So I'm just going to say that if you make up whatever rules you want, then the whole conversation is moot.


Swordsages get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, no? I only know of one thing available to a Batman that can beat good stealth skills, the Mindsight feat combined with some means of getting telepathy (typically a Mindbender dip). And Swordsage probably has some sort of counter to that, too.

Actually, Batman has about a hundred and twelve ways to beat good Stealth skills. Mindsights only advantage is that it is his only way to beat Ridiculous Stealth skills (many Wizard builds end up having spot and/or listen as class skills) and the Darkstalker feat. Another one of those feats so incredibly good/broken/useful/necessary that all Stealth characters must take it, or they aren't really stealth characters.


Of course, stealth by itself gets you a draw at most, and you want a win. So you need to be able to either do something to the wizard without blowing your cover, do something that will win you the fight before he can react, or do something that will let you hide again before he can react. My preferred method for "attacking" a wizard is to mess with his components and/or magic items: Steal, sunder, or shatter his component pouch, etc. I don't know how capable Swordsages are at this, though.

You forgot the other big problem, called finding the Wizard. You somehow have to find a guy who pretty much teleports around all the time. Not to mention your favored method pretty much has a 0% chance on a flying Wizard. (IE all of them at the level where Hide/Spot become something other then chance.)

@Titanium Dragon, I believe the point of Cloudkill in this example is to place it outside the radius, and then move the effect into the person, which does work as per AMF rules.


I'm guessing you missed the significance of the maneuvers I mentioned.

Irresistible Mountain Strike not only deals a little extra damage, it sets the target's speed to zero. With the AMF negating spellcasting, Batman can take a swing or two at the martial adept; for some reason, I'm not terribly worried about this. This one only works if both of you are on the ground.

White Raven Hammer stuns the target. Period. It's awesome like that.

I am well aware of what the various strikes do, I think you missed the significance of the fact that your strikes don't matter if you can't hit the Wizard, which you can't. SwordSages (the only people who could possibly reach the Wizard with and AMF while they are flying) get neither White Raven or Stone Dragon, everyone else fails to reach said Wizard.

Now as for my favorite discussion:

In my campaigns I like to think that possible actions have real consequences for the world, so in a World where there are maybe 1% Raptorans and Dragonborn combined I like to think that Natural Flying Wizard killer idea dies pretty fast.

Dragonborn have pretty much no compelling reason to become Wizard killers, since they would lose out on their primary purpose, dragon killing (they would be incredibly useless at that).

There are probably more Wizards then there are Raptorans, and if Raptorans are the only successful Wizard killers, well then I forsee some Wizards decideing that Raptoran genocide is in order. If a player really wants to play a Raptoran Wizard killer, then I'll give it to him, and all the motivation he needs because the genocide will have just occurred a week ago.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 11:22 PM
Actually, Batman has about a hundred and twelve ways to beat good Stealth skills. Mindsights only advantage is that it is his only way to beat Ridiculous Stealth skills (many Wizard builds end up having spot and/or listen as class skills) and the Darkstalker feat.It depends on your standard of "good" versus "ridiculous", I suppose. But the best spell that I know of for beating Hide is Greater Prying Eyes, and you can get good enough at stealth to beat that 100% consistently without any magic at all (which I wouldn't call "ridiculous"). Wizards getting Spot/Listen as class skills I wasn't aware of... What PrC does that?


You forgot the other big problem, called finding the Wizard. You somehow have to find a guy who pretty much teleports around all the time. Not to mention your favored method pretty much has a 0% chance on a flying Wizard. (IE all of them at the level where Hide/Spot become something other then chance.)I'm assuming here that getting in the general vicinity of the wizard isn't an issue, here, since this looks to be some sort of duel. Normally, my target wouldn't be the wizard himself, anyway, but rather the place where his Contingent Teleport is set to take him (where he probably has some nice loot to steal).

And if the wizard is flying, well then, you fly up to meet him. Yeah, it'll cost you a magic item slot, but Winged Boots won't break the bank, and there's no other must-have item with the same slot.

Talic
2008-03-04, 11:34 PM
Escape button, not win button?? In the off chance, a dirty surprise trick DID work, then the escape button IS the win button. It shouldn't happen again. The next time, you're facing the mage's full power, at range. Most likely through gated creatures, while the mage is comfortably sitting incorporeal after hitting you with a Disjunction.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-05, 12:04 AM
It depends on your standard of "good" versus "ridiculous", I suppose. But the best spell that I know of for beating Hide is Greater Prying Eyes, and you can get good enough at stealth to beat that 100% consistently without any magic at all (which I wouldn't call "ridiculous"). Wizards getting Spot/Listen as class skills I wasn't aware of... What PrC does that?

Well for this particular example, I amusing good to refer to something some one can do (IE you are good at opening locks as a rogue if you put all your ranks in it) and ridiculous to describe what you base your character around (DMM persist results in ridiculous buffs, pimping out hide with magic items and/or feats becomes ridiculous.)

But as for beating Hide, I'd say go with Blindsight 60ft, or Blindsense 5ft per caster level, or both, or Arcane Sight (possibly permanencied) if you have any magic at all, Shapechanging into something with good Listen checks, and of course Greater Prying Eyes. Note that suddenly every two bit "I'm good at stealth because I maxed my ranks." character is now in for a world of hurt.


And if the wizard is flying, well then, you fly up to meet him. Yeah, it'll cost you a magic item slot, but Winged Boots won't break the bank, and there's no other must-have item with the same slot.

Except that any HiPS I've seen requires Shadow nearby, which isn't the case 30ft up in the air. And so now you get to play the game called fly up, get spotted, get owned. Most common method of said owning, Dispel Magic on your boots (possibly followed by a quicken shatter).

Spot/Listen- Earth Dreamer get's Listen, Shadowcraft Mage gets Spot, anything using UM should be using Beguiler which gets both, and I think that the Elven Sub level gets something (though that's from memory, so don't take my word for it.)

Not all builds have it, but many do, and I like to have them whenever possible.

Talic
2008-03-05, 12:10 AM
Well for this particular example, I amusing good to refer to something some one can do (IE you are good at opening locks as a rogue if you put all your ranks in it) and ridiculous to describe what you base your character around (DMM persist results in ridiculous buffs, pimping out hide with magic items and/or feats becomes ridiculous.)

But as for beating Hide, I'd say go with Blindsight 60ft, or Blindsense 5ft per caster level, or both, or Arcane Sight (possibly permanencied) if you have any magic at all, Shapechanging into something with good Listen checks, and of course Greater Prying Eyes. Note that suddenly every two bit "I'm good at stealth because I maxed my ranks." character is now in for a world of hurt.



Except that any HiPS I've seen requires Shadow nearby, which isn't the case 30ft up in the air. And so now you get to play the game called fly up, get spotted, get owned. Most common method of said owning, Dispel Magic on your boots (possibly followed by a quicken shatter).Disjunction, followed by laughter while you fall.

Spot/Listen- Earth Dreamer get's Listen, Shadowcraft Mage gets Spot, anything using UM should be using Beguiler which gets both, and I think that the Elven Sub level gets something (though that's from memory, so don't take my word for it.)

Not all builds have it, but many do, and I like to have them whenever possible.

Edited for correctness. :)

Patashu
2008-03-05, 02:02 AM
Better question: How many ToBers can Batman take in a row (either with NO breaks in between or short breaks but not enough to regen spells)?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-05, 02:06 AM
Better question: How many ToBers can Batman take in a row (either with NO breaks in between or short breaks but not enough to regen spells)?

Alone? Not that many; finishing an opponent off tends to require the expenditure of a bunch of spell slots. The exact number totally depends on how the die rolls (saves, etc) go.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-05, 02:12 AM
Better question: How many ToBers can Batman take in a row (either with NO breaks in between or short breaks but not enough to regen spells)?

What level and how broken a batman? Oh and what terrain/setting?

At level 20 and with no restrictions except gate abuse you can get a very large number with the use of the proper buffs made persistent.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-05, 02:47 AM
Edited for correctness. :)

I don't like to Disjunction all my loot, not to mention the possibility of a successful will save is high on some people Swordsage/Crusader.

I do however think that destroying one 5,000gp item is worth it to be pretty much invulnerable to all non-Dragonborn/Raptorans.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-05, 05:38 AM
Alone? Not that many; finishing an opponent off tends to require the expenditure of a bunch of spell slots. The exact number totally depends on how the die rolls (saves, etc) go.Mordekain's Magnificent Mansion.

Theli
2008-03-05, 01:10 PM
Batman's major weakness is the player that plays him/her/it. Find a lousy player, or find a strategy that the good player had not yet considered, and you've beaten them.

I wish I knew why everybody considered a really high Int to be a win button. And that if the batman wizard with the 25-30+ Int DOESN'T win, it's because the DM screwed him. (As if a high character Int was a replacement for the cleverness of the player behind it.)

It's odd.

The effectiveness of the batman wizard is generally a theoretical exercise. Real players don't do months and months of research on their targets, because real DMs wouldn't have any reason to give the the opportunity. Real players also play in a group, so they're not teleporting around by their lonesome. And real players have goals that a typical batman wizard would likely have no logical use for.

Real players have baggage that the best theoretical character style, the batman wizard, generally doesn't have to worry about. (The wizard is always hiding from all possible threats. They never leave their secured tower unless its no longer safe or only after months and months of research and divinations to plan out every extent of their missions. Etc, etc, etc.) And it's funny how many only consider baggage such as this when judging the worth of other types of characters.

Bah. Anyway, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. (As it has before, time and time again.) But it just seems to me to be pretty ridiculous how people speak about this style of character as if it was the end-all, be-all of real campaign builds, ignoring that, ultimately, it is mostly a theoretical exercise.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-05, 04:58 PM
Batman's major weakness is the player that plays him/her/it. Find a lousy player, or find a strategy that the good player had not yet considered, and you've beaten them.

I wish I knew why everybody considered a really high Int to be a win button. And that if the batman wizard with the 25-30+ Int DOESN'T win, it's because the DM screwed him. (As if a high character Int was a replacement for the cleverness of the player behind it.)

It's odd.

The effectiveness of the batman wizard is generally a theoretical exercise. Real players don't do months and months of research on their targets, because real DMs wouldn't have any reason to give the the opportunity. Real players also play in a group, so they're not teleporting around by their lonesome. And real players have goals that a typical batman wizard would likely have no logical use for.

Real players have baggage that the best theoretical character style, the batman wizard, generally doesn't have to worry about. (The wizard is always hiding from all possible threats. They never leave their secured tower unless its no longer safe or only after months and months of research and divinations to plan out every extent of their missions. Etc, etc, etc.) And it's funny how many only consider baggage such as this when judging the worth of other types of characters.

Bah. Anyway, I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears. (As it has before, time and time again.) But it just seems to me to be pretty ridiculous how people speak about this style of character as if it was the end-all, be-all of real campaign builds, ignoring that, ultimately, it is mostly a theoretical exercise.

But we aren't talking about the player, we are talking about Batman, who is by nature theoretical. If he wanted to know about in game he would have said, "In a party your average well played Wizards versus ToB." Instead he said, (duh-na-na-na-nun-a) BATMAN! So you "real games" don't matter. We are only talking about theoretical.

EDIT: I honestly think the best way to find out what Batman does is present something to a large group of people, because Batman's Int is 36, and ours is not, so we need many Aid Another checks to get comparable results on our Int checks.

Frosty
2008-03-05, 05:22 PM
So in other words you expect Thicket of Blades to be a blanket Stand Still? Then why even take Stand Still? Also, I haven't looked at ToB for a while, but I'm fairly sure I would remember if a stance was that retarded. So I'm just going to say that if you make up whatever rules you want, then the whole conversation is moot.

In my campaigns I like to think that possible actions have real consequences for the world, so in a World where there are maybe 1% Raptorans and Dragonborn combined I like to think that Natural Flying Wizard killer idea dies pretty fast.

There are probably more Wizards then there are Raptorans, and if Raptorans are the only successful Wizard killers, well then I forsee some Wizards decideing that Raptoran genocide is in order. If a player really wants to play a Raptoran Wizard killer, then I'll give it to him, and all the motivation he needs because the genocide will have just occurred a week ago.

What I mean to say is that Thicket of Blades makes ANY movement provoke an AoO, which will work with Stand Still. In any case no, Raptorans will not be the only specialized wizard killers. You know why? The biggest killer of Wizards are other Wizards!! Wizards most likely be making war on each other, not killing all Raptorans.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-05, 07:43 PM
What I mean to say is that Thicket of Blades makes ANY movement provoke an AoO, which will work with Stand Still. In any case no, Raptorans will not be the only specialized wizard killers. You know why? The biggest killer of Wizards are other Wizards!! Wizards most likely be making war on each other, not killing all Raptorans.

So does Thicket of Blades allow you an AoO against those with cover? Against those who are invisible? Against those who are Ethereal? Against those who teleport? If not, why does it not ignore the rules for those things, but does ignore the rules for Tumble.

Tumble says, "Your movement provokes no AoOs." So if Tumble rules against AoOs don't apply then do Cover rules not either?

Sorry about the misunderstanding by the way.

Chronos
2008-03-05, 08:59 PM
Except that any HiPS I've seen requires Shadow nearby, which isn't the case 30ft up in the air. And so now you get to play the game called fly up, get spotted, get owned. Most common method of said owning, Dispel Magic on your boots (possibly followed by a quicken shatter).Eh, if there are no shadows close enough, then you don't use Hide in Plain Sight (that is, if your version of HiPS requires it: Not all do). You use cover or concealment, instead. And yes, there are ways to get concealment even in the air: The Blur spell is the simplest. And if you want to keep your magical auras to a minimum (to save charges on your Nystul's Magic Aura wand), you can get completely nonmagical concealment by flying out of the sun, the way pilots used to in dogfights.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-05, 09:45 PM
Eh, if there are no shadows close enough, then you don't use Hide in Plain Sight (that is, if your version of HiPS requires it: Not all do). You use cover or concealment, instead. And yes, there are ways to get concealment even in the air: The Blur spell is the simplest. And if you want to keep your magical auras to a minimum (to save charges on your Nystul's Magic Aura wand), you can get completely nonmagical concealment by flying out of the sun, the way pilots used to in dogfights.

So now you suggest making up rules (flying out of the sun allows me to make a hide check even though I'm five feet away and robbing him.)

And crazy rule abuses that arise from a certain overlap in what concealment actually means. I cast displacement and make a hide check, so now I am invisible, and for some reason he can't see the illusionary copy of me standing 2ft away from me either.

Personally, I don't like to give the Hide skills magical abilities that allow them to make illusion spells disappear.

And none of this still affects the Darkstalker issue.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 12:32 AM
So does Thicket of Blades allow you an AoO against those with cover? Against those who are invisible? Against those who are Ethereal? Against those who teleport? If not, why does it not ignore the rules for those things, but does ignore the rules for Tumble.

Tumble says, "Your movement provokes no AoOs." So if Tumble rules against AoOs don't apply then do Cover rules not either?

Sorry about the misunderstanding by the way.

I understand your reasoning, but I say that if the stance affects an even safer action (withdraw or 5ft step, your pick), then Tumble, a more dangerous option, would be affected as well.


The difference between Cover and Tumble is that Cover stops the attacker from doing anything to you if you do something vulnerable, and Tumble is supposed to keep you from doing anything vulnerable in the first place. Thicket of Blades does nothing to address Cover, but it certainly has a lot to say what extra things that were once safe and now considered vulnerable.

Diamondeye
2008-03-06, 12:58 PM
But we aren't talking about the player, we are talking about Batman, who is by nature theoretical. If he wanted to know about in game he would have said, "In a party your average well played Wizards versus ToB." Instead he said, (duh-na-na-na-nun-a) BATMAN! So you "real games" don't matter. We are only talking about theoretical.

EDIT: I honestly think the best way to find out what Batman does is present something to a large group of people, because Batman's Int is 36, and ours is not, so we need many Aid Another checks to get comparable results on our Int checks.

Batman was originally presented as a model to play a Wizard to maximum effectiveness in a game. In theory, it is possible to play a Batman. However it rarely, if ever happens because A) most people want to change the flavor, at least a little and thereby lose some effectiveness, and B) DMs get fed up and find a way to stymie batman.

So yes, the debate is about a Batman played in a game. Furthermore, there's a lot of assumption going on here. I see a great deal of people simply bringing up spells and saying "the wizard wins" without any thought as even so much as saving throws, much less any other factors that might come into play, while dismissing ToB abilties equally casually. I see people listing this myriad of things the Wizard could conceivably do, but part of the point of the Wizard design is that he can't prepare all the spells he has available, and furthermore, he gets the same number of actions per round as anyone else.

I also see a lot of ridiculous assumptions that even the theoretical batman played by the perfect player could forsee every contingency, which strains credibility. The entire debate appears to be simply assumed away as a matter of "well, we already know Batman always wins, so we can necessarily assume he will win this one."

Maybe, maybe not.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-06, 01:08 PM
The sad thing is, due to splat-creep, a large number of these things are actually true of wizards.



So yes, the debate is about a Batman played in a game. Furthermore, there's a lot of assumption going on here. I see a great deal of people simply bringing up spells and saying "the wizard wins" without any thought as even so much as saving throws,

Orb spells.


I see people listing this myriad of things the Wizard could conceivably do, but part of the point of the Wizard design is that he can't prepare all the spells he has available,

Scrying/contact other plane is the method that goddamn batmen such as Tippy prefer.


and furthermore, he gets the same number of actions per round as anyone else.

Quicken.


I also see a lot of ridiculous assumptions that even the theoretical batman played by the perfect player could forsee every contingency, which strains credibility.

This is the proble.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-06, 01:31 PM
Furthermore, there's a lot of assumption going on here. I see a great deal of people simply bringing up spells and saying "the wizard wins" without any thought as even so much as saving throws, much less any other factors that might come into play, while dismissing ToB abilties equally casually. I see people listing this myriad of things the Wizard could conceivably do, but part of the point of the Wizard design is that he can't prepare all the spells he has available, and furthermore, he gets the same number of actions per round as anyone else.

The number of different things a Batman COULD do is rather the point, the ToBer could conceivably account for some of them with tactics and items but the sheer diversity of attack/evasion methods, coupled with a Wizards travel + information gathering abilities means there's always SOMETHING they could do that their opponent hadn't planned for. And since they get soooo many slots, added to staves/wands/scrolls they generally come to any engagement with a host of dirty tricks, they don't need any one or two, they've got dozens. And the control of when and where the fight takes place usually means they're fully preped and know what they're facing if it's a genuine challenge.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 01:53 PM
The way to challenge wizard PCs is to catch them unprepared. that's when the real fun begins.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-06, 02:00 PM
The way to challenge wizard PCs is to catch them unprepared. that's when the real fun begins.

But that's the point of a batman wizard. S/he can't (if played with the aformentioned ludicrous paranoia, and excepting massive DM escalation) be surprised.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-06, 02:04 PM
The theoretical Batman is impossible only because no DM I know plans enough for the divination school to be useful. If it was, proper application of the right spells would make him invincible, but that prediction cannot happen without real magic, so Batman will remain only a theory.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 02:18 PM
But that's the point of a batman wizard. S/he can't (if played with the aformentioned ludicrous paranoia, and excepting massive DM escalation) be surprised.

I tend to not allow many divinations. It seems to help.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-06, 02:24 PM
I tend to not allow many divinations. It seems to help.

Yup. But this is houseruling (albeit perfectly reasonable and much, much easier to run) where-apon Batman gets one of the mainstays of his tactics/utility belt taken away because he's been a bad boy.:smallredface: nearly to the point where he stops being deserving of the label Batman in my opinion, rather being just a kick-ass spellslinger that no meat sack is ever going to challenge, rather than a demigod.:smallamused:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 05:21 PM
Batman was originally presented as a model to play a Wizard to maximum effectiveness in a game. In theory, it is possible to play a Batman. However it rarely, if ever happens because A) most people want to change the flavor, at least a little and thereby lose some effectiveness, and B) DMs get fed up and find a way to stymie batman.

So yes, the debate is about a Batman played in a game. Furthermore, there's a lot of assumption going on here. I see a great deal of people simply bringing up spells and saying "the wizard wins" without any thought as even so much as saving throws, much less any other factors that might come into play, while dismissing ToB abilties equally casually. I see people listing this myriad of things the Wizard could conceivably do, but part of the point of the Wizard design is that he can't prepare all the spells he has available, and furthermore, he gets the same number of actions per round as anyone else.

I also see a lot of ridiculous assumptions that even the theoretical batman played by the perfect player could forsee every contingency, which strains credibility. The entire debate appears to be simply assumed away as a matter of "well, we already know Batman always wins, so we can necessarily assume he will win this one."

Maybe, maybe not.

The argument that Batman is theoretical is not an argument that we are talking about in play.

1) Batman can never be played perfectly in game.
2) The original poster asked about Batman.

You conclusion is: The original Poster is talking about in game?

That's crazy. The OP specifically said a one on one fight, already this has nothing to do with in game. So clearly the theoretical, as is so often done on D&D forums.

Diamondeye
2008-03-07, 02:11 AM
The number of different things a Batman COULD do is rather the point, the ToBer could conceivably account for some of them with tactics and items but the sheer diversity of attack/evasion methods, coupled with a Wizards travel + information gathering abilities means there's always SOMETHING they could do that their opponent hadn't planned for. And since they get soooo many slots, added to staves/wands/scrolls they generally come to any engagement with a host of dirty tricks, they don't need any one or two, they've got dozens. And the control of when and where the fight takes place usually means they're fully preped and know what they're facing if it's a genuine challenge.

The fact of the matter is, however, that Batman can't do, or even prepare to do, all of the things that he might conceivably do. That's the entire difference between wizards and sorcerers; wizards get a bigger variety of spells at the expense of having to plan out which ones they are going to use.

You're also making an enormous assumption that A) The wizard knows the ToB character wants to fight him, B) he has no other contingencies to prepare for, and C) that he will have the resources to do all this information gathering, preparing, buffing, etc. and still have slots left over for the actual fight. Sure, he's got gear and stuff, but I see people assuming away a HUGE amount of the debate. Someone above just posted "quicken" as a single word, as if that by itself was a panacea that solved all problems; never mind that you can only quicken so many spells, what with them taking up a higher level spell slot.

So far in this thread, no one's even defined what level we're talking about. 20? Timestop? ok, fine, but that's a totally different story from, say, 12th level. I also see people assuming that Batman necessarily has every spell in his book that he could want in order to fight this fight. Why is this necessarily so? Very, very few wizards have this enormous library and those are usually the ones that are created as major setting characters. It's hardly a requirment of a Batman wizard that they have access to every appropriate wizard spell.

As for this buisness about Batman being purely theoretical and the ability of the player having no impact, that's sheer nonsense. There's nothing prohibiting a fight like this from occuring; a ToB character could get separated from his party and have to fight the wizard alone. Heck, maybe they get in a fight in a bar out of the blue. Where's all the Wizard's grand preparations now?

I'm not saying that the ToB character would necessarily win; I'm saying he's being sold short in this debate because the superiority of Batman is simply being taken as an axiom. I find it singularly unconvincing when people spout one-word answers to courses of action a character could take.

It reminds me of a debate I had once with a guy who claimed a P-51 could beat an F-16 in a dogfight... if the F-16 were not allowed to use missiles or radar and was not allowed to "play cut and run" (i.e. use its vastly superior acceleration or climb rate to get away and attack from a direction of its choosing). Well, of course the P-51 has a good chance if we take away all the advantages of the F-16! It's also similar to this debate in that no, a P-51 is not likely to ever fight an F-16, but a helicopter or an older VTOL plane like a Yak-38 might, and have similar disadvantages.

I'm pointing out the degree the entire debate is being assumed away here, not necessarily arguing for a ToB victory. I don't see how that can even begin to be explored without even so much as knowing the levels were talking about.

Talic
2008-03-07, 02:35 AM
You really want batman immune to flying Meleemancers?

Simple. Summon monster 9. Air elementals. Vortex.

Or: Ethereal Jaunt.

Or: Incorporeal.

Or: Some of the more powerful Weather/Wind controllers.

Or: Well, Boots of flying run out of fly before mages of flying.

I love Disjunction. Yeah, I'll lose 33% of my loot. They lose it too.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-07, 02:43 AM
It reminds me of a debate I had once with a guy who claimed a P-51 could beat an F-16 in a dogfight... if the F-16 were not allowed to use missiles or radar and was not allowed to "play cut and run" (i.e. use its vastly superior acceleration or climb rate to get away and attack from a direction of its choosing). Well, of course the P-51 has a good chance if we take away all the advantages of the F-16! It's also similar to this debate in that no, a P-51 is not likely to ever fight an F-16, but a helicopter or an older VTOL plane like a Yak-38 might, and have similar disadvantages.

I think that this paragraph is especially funny coming from you, since you are the one that is saying we should ignore all of Batman's advantages in favor of fights that would never take place.

Talic
2008-03-07, 02:54 AM
You're also making an enormous assumption that A) The wizard knows the ToB character wants to fight him, B) he has no other contingencies to prepare for, and C) that he will have the resources to do all this information gathering, preparing, buffing, etc. and still have slots left over for the actual fight. Sure, he's got gear and stuff, but I see people assuming away a HUGE amount of the debate. Someone above just posted "quicken" as a single word, as if that by itself was a panacea that solved all problems; never mind that you can only quicken so many spells, what with them taking up a higher level spell slot.

Actually, you're making the enormous assumption. That the TOB character gets to attack from a position of ambush. Who's to say the wizard's not stalking him? Who's to say the wizard doesn't kill the ToB's employer, shapeshift into him, and toss the ToB a gem as the next payment. A 20,000 gp gem. With the character's name inscribed on it. As a no-save Trap the Soul?

Sure, characters in ambush situations have an advantage. Thing is, you start with the assumption that the TOB character NEEDS an ambush to win. Thus, you already agree that straight up, Batman wins.

Diamondeye
2008-03-07, 05:12 AM
I think that this paragraph is especially funny coming from you, since you are the one that is saying we should ignore all of Batman's advantages in favor of fights that would never take place.

I think it's especially funny that you are representing situational factors as inherent advantages of a batman build. Batman does not automatically know all about his opponent ahead of time, he does not automatically have every spell that might be useful in his spellbook, and he cannot prepare them all even if he did. I'm not aware of any feat one can take called "Optimal Combat Conditions" and if there is such a feat, kindly tell me what book it is in so I can read about it.

I'm sure you'll reply that the Wizard can do all sorts of divinations to learn when and where is the best time to engage his enemy, but this is assuming the Wizard has all time in the world to do them, knows that his opponent is planning to attack him, and has no other contingencies he must prepare for. These conditions aren't specified in the OP that you keep citing about how it's all theoretical, so assuming them is doing precisely what I described above, referring to the air combat.

If Batman is as overwhelmingly superior just based on his own merits, then there should be no need to assume he has made all sorts of excessive preparations and condition setting; he should be able to reliably win even if he gets attacked out of the clear blue in a bar fight.

If, however, all these conditions are considered "part of being Batman" and he can't reliably win without them, then it's really not the build that's so powerful; it's the build under the right conditions. Since a regular item of discussion is how broken batman is, if he can only exist in theory and requires optimal conditions to b e so, then maybe, just maybe, a little exaggeration oh his lethality is occuring.

I don't even get how you think I'm taking away Batman's advantages. I never said he can't have quickened spells, divinations, lots of options, etc. I said he can't do them all at once. He can only prepare/quicken so many spells, they only have so long a duration, his opponent gets saves, which for ToB characters will be strong saves 2 times out of 3, etc. I'm saying that it is not possible for batman to have all these advantages at one time.

If Batman is some kind of sacred cow, I apologize for upsetting people, but the degree to which it's simply assumed that everything will always be in his favor is ridiculous.

Diamondeye
2008-03-07, 05:19 AM
Actually, you're making the enormous assumption. That the TOB character gets to attack from a position of ambush. Who's to say the wizard's not stalking him? Who's to say the wizard doesn't kill the ToB's employer, shapeshift into him, and toss the ToB a gem as the next payment. A 20,000 gp gem. With the character's name inscribed on it. As a no-save Trap the Soul?

Sure, characters in ambush situations have an advantage. Thing is, you start with the assumption that the TOB character NEEDS an ambush to win. Thus, you already agree that straight up, Batman wins.

I made no assumption of ambush. I never mentioned ambush. I believe I mentioned "bar fights", and while it's conceivably possible to ambush someone in a bar, I find it rather odd that you would get ambush out of that, or anything else I said.

So, now that we're clear that I'm not making an assumption of ambush, and while we're at it, let's get it clear that I also didn't say anything about an employer, let's also stop assuming that the wizard is laying in ambush for the ToB character. I would say that casting a whole bunch of divinations, buffs, and then attacking at an optimal time and place counts as an ambush as well.

How about something like they are enemies from years back when both were less experienced and run across each other in a marketplace, or maybe in the lair of some third party. It can even be in a place with a high ceiling, if you're dead set that the Wizard needs to fly -- which, by the way, would be a tacit admission that if he can't fly, he's toast.

I'm going to say this one more time: I'm not assuming the ToB character will win. I don't know if he can or not. I'm saying that without even knowing what level we're talking about, all we have here is a bunch of assumptions based on a batman which is being given every conditional advantage as a matter of course.

JBento
2008-03-07, 05:50 AM
The points is that the Batman Wizards KNOWS everything that's going to attack him, because otherwise he ISN'T the batman Wizard. He has no problems having spell slots for the battle TODAY, because he regularly casts Divinations on the lines of "what's the next opponent that realistically poses a threat to me that I'm going to face and when" the OTHER DAYS.

This is, of course, assuming that he hasn't already spent some of those easy-gained gold and XP to create a magical item that allows him to do just that everyday without spell slot expenditure...

Diamondeye
2008-03-07, 05:53 AM
I read the original batman wizard post, and this is a wild exaggeration of the amount of divination the batman actually does. I'd also like to know what divination spell reliably gives such specific information.

JBento
2008-03-07, 06:00 AM
Obviously that's not how the Batman would do it - he'd do it much better, because frankly, I'm not Batman (nobody is, which is sort of the point).

I'm away from books right now, but are you really saying that if I cast a high-level Divination spell and ask "Am I going to face a realistically life-threatening opponent tomorrow?" I'm not going to get a reliable answer?

Also, see Foresight (which prevents me from being surprised), Greater Celerity (which gives me my next round NOW) and Teleport (which whisks me away from whatever to my Secret Fortress of SolitudeTM). I'm then free to Scry on whatever/whoever forced to do so, get all the information on the world about them (and then some) and prepare myself to whoop their ass in under 30secs.

EDIT: Indeed, remember that the Wizard's problem is not only being able to do anything tomorrow, it's also his ability to delay most anything until then

Diamondeye
2008-03-07, 06:20 AM
Obviously that's not how the Batman would do it - he'd do it much better, because frankly, I'm not Batman (nobody is, which is sort of the point).

I'm away from books right now, but are you really saying that if I cast a high-level Divination spell and ask "Am I going to face a realistically life-threatening opponent tomorrow?" I'm not going to get a reliable answer?

I don't know. Which "high level divination spell" are you referring to? What exactly are its predictive capabilities? What condictions does it put on the questions you can ask? Does it require an expensive material component? How high a level do you mean? 5? 7? 9? What if we're discussing an 11th level batman and an 11the level ToB caharacter and he has mostly low-mid level spells?

How about the fact that these questions have to be answered by the DM? What if the ToB character changes his mind about the conditions under which he will attack after the divination is done? What if he doesn't even know, or hasn't decided he's going to, fight the wizard until after that divination? What if *gasp* he spent some of his hard-earned wealth on some magic his own to say, shield himself or his home from scrying?


Also, see Foresight (which prevents me from being surprised), Greater Celerity (which gives me my next round NOW) and Teleport (which whisks me away from whatever to my Secret Fortress of SolitudeTM). I'm then free to Scry on whatever/whoever forced to do so, get all the information on the world about them (and then some) and prepare myself to whoop their ass in under 30secs.

EDIT: Indeed, remember that the Wizard's problem is not only being able to do anything tomorrow, it's also his ability to delay most anything until then

Yes, IF he has the opportunity to do all these things. How long does Foresight last? Why did he cast it when he did? What if he doesn't HAVE one of these spells in his spellbook? Batman does not always have every spell in the gameworld in his book; that's not Batman, it's Elminster. (Who might very well be a Batman, but then the debate is over a specific character, not wizards in general, now, isn't it?)

Batman is a character build. I don't know of any character build that sets the conditions of the game world so that the Wizard always has the time and resources to perfectly prepare for every situation without any consequences for the time or resources he spends on this constant state of absolute preparation.

JBento
2008-03-07, 06:33 AM
Per batman standards, 1 casting of Foresight lasts 40hours, and is ALWAYS up. If he doesn't have one of those three fundamental spells, the he obviously isn't Batman, now is he? :smallsmile:

And, for the record, Elminster is actually pretty crappy, and only survives because of the power of plot. Elminster is, in fact, so bad, that he's almost an anti-Batman (a Namtab, for lack of a better word).

Ah, but if the ToB class sepnt some of his money to shield himself and his home from Scrying then he's already resorting to a Wizard and this is no longer a 1-on-1 confrontation. You may as well ask "what if the ToB brings a whole Wizard University with him to the fray, what chance does the Batman have THEN?"

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 09:40 AM
A level 20 wizard has a 60% chance of a correct answer using Contact Other Plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) Combo that with a perpetual foresight, and he should never be surprised. As for "What if the ToBer changes his mind?", it's magic. It should have predicted that. That's the reason this is theoretical, no DM can be perfect enough for a Batman to work perfectly.

Of course, if your power increases as the DM gets better, well, that's a good build.

Funkyodor
2008-03-07, 10:22 AM
A level 20 wizard has a 60% chance of a correct answer using Contact Other Plane. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) Combo that with a perpetual foresight, and he should never be surprised. As for "What if the ToBer changes his mind?", it's magic. It should have predicted that. That's the reason this is theoretical, no DM can be perfect enough for a Batman to work perfectly.

Of course, if your power increases as the DM gets better, well, that's a good build.

Yes, and if he does have a big enough bonus to intelligence he can avoid the chance of an INT/CHA reduciton to 8 for a week! Plus he receives single word responses to his questions. And with Scry, even a lvl 1 commoner has a one in 20 chance to spot the sensor... So there is a chance the scryed individual will "see" the invisible sensor and then give the Wizard false information for as long as he wants to watch. And even Discern Location has it's problems. You know exactly where something is. That's it. Whenever I read about the Uber Diviniation Wizard knowing everything, I picture Fry trying to find Bender using the super telescope.

Fry: "Bender?" Lur: "No! And quit calling!"

JBento
2008-03-07, 10:33 AM
Actually, the check DC isn't all that impressive.

Also, isn't the Scry detection made with a Spot check? Skill checks don't auto-succeed on a 20. Or is it with a Will save? The srd doesn't make any reference to either, so that's why I'm asking

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 10:35 AM
A level 20 wizard generally has a 32 int. He auto-makes a dc12 check.
Question(every one asked twice, or 3 times if one of the answers is different):
What is the next credible threat to my safety or power I will face?
When will I face(answer to previous question).
Where will I face it?
(other question about tactics and such, depending on the answer to 1)

All of this from 2 castings of a 5th level spell inside your MMM in your secure tower.

JBento
2008-03-07, 10:40 AM
EDIT: Double Post

Funkyodor
2008-03-07, 11:13 AM
But it still is a one word answer...

What is the next credible threat to my safety or power I will face? THEFT!
When will I face(answer to previous question). SOON!
Where will I face it? OUTSIDE!

Yes, Ability checks not having an auto-fail mechanic wasn't so smart and allows Wizards to automatically pass the check. But of the 3 questions, one is probably going to be false, a lie, or an error and the Wizard will not know which unless he asks questions multiple times to multiple creatures and even then he can get different answers to the same question.

The sensor detection is a DC 20 INT check if you have an Intelligence greater than 12. So maybe commoners can't, it depends on the commoner.

Blue Paladin
2008-03-07, 11:51 AM
Heh. I love high-level divinations!

situation A: The divination tells him a serious threat will occur tomorrow! Batman preps all necessary spells and easily destroys the ToBer, before he even finishes issuing his challenge. Huh. I guess it wasn't a serious threat at all! The divination was wrong.

situation B: The divination, determined to not be wrong this time, tells him no serious threat will occur tomorrow. Batman screws around, like using spells on prestidigitation to clean up around the tower. A slimeToBer appears! He strikes Batman down with a lucky maneuver, avenging his master in stereotypical fashion! The divination was wrong again.

Realizing that accurately predicting single future events is actively impossible, the divination goes off to the local bar and gets heavily drunk. Philosophers marvel at an abstract idea getting drunk. Batman pouts. Because he's dead.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-07, 12:37 PM
The problem is even ignoring that Divination question, Batman still autowins against everyone. There's a reason Foresight/Celerity/Teleport is crazy. Not that Batman would ever go drinking in a Tavern, but he would certainly do so fully buffed, IE Foresight, Viel of Undeath, Elemental Body Air, a few energy Immunities, and whatever else he can think of. SO even if you don't have one of my +35 Init Mod Batmans, you still just Foresight Celerity your way to escape.

And escape here means DDing to 30 over the entrance to said Tavern, then you get the surprise round on the ToBer when he walks out, talking crap about how he showed you. Then you hit him with your Quicken Ray of Enfeeblement (or Clumsiness) and 2 Ocular Rays of Exhaustion, Instantly dropping him to the Exhausted state no matter how he saves and giving him a -1d6+11 penalty to either Str or Dex, and a -6 penalty to the other. (And this can drop them to zero knocking them unconscious.)

And this can be done with just three 5th or less with meta-reducers.

Blue Paladin
2008-03-07, 01:07 PM
Does Foresight work in an AMF?
Does Celerity work in an AMF?
Does Teleport work in an AMF?
Does Dimension Door work in an AMF?
Does <any of your chosen buffs> work in an AMF?
Can he move with a land speed of 0' in an AMF?
Can he negate the stun condition in an AMF?

Unless the answer to any of these questions is yes, then he's vulnerable. Go look at my earlier post (#25) again. If this happens during a tavern brawl, a room full of people also get to whack the wiz while he's standing there (and they'll probably relish the chance to do so, given how rare the opportunity is). He'll be unconscious before he even gets a chance to DD away.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 01:10 PM
Actually, in an AMF, he vanishes. After all, it was only an Astral Projection.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-07, 01:41 PM
Does Foresight work in an AMF?
Does Celerity work in an AMF?
Does Teleport work in an AMF?
Does Dimension Door work in an AMF?
Does <any of your chosen buffs> work in an AMF?
Can he move with a land speed of 0' in an AMF?
Can he negate the stun condition in an AMF?

Unless the answer to any of these questions is yes, then he's vulnerable. Go look at my earlier post (#25) again. If this happens during a tavern brawl, a room full of people also get to whack the wiz while he's standing there (and they'll probably relish the chance to do so, given how rare the opportunity is). He'll be unconscious before he even gets a chance to DD away.

So now Batman can't use Divinations, and sits in a tavern in the middle of an AMF? Does ever ToBer walk around with persistent AMF up? And if this where true, don't you think the Wizard would leave the damn Tavern when he realized everyone in it had AMF (He'd instantly notice because he'd stop being able to hover)

Or do you think that the ToBer is hunting the Wizard? We already established that it wasn't fair to give one superior knowledge. And if one was going to have superior knowledge who would it be? The guy with Divinations who can teleport from city to city, or the guy with a Sword who walks?

If using Divination is a tactic admission of Batman not being overpowered without them then Saying everyone is always inside there own permanent AMF is an admission of Batman's superiority. Not to mention it takes a DC 26 UMD check, 120,000GP or a friendly Wizard/Cleric to even have access to this sort of thing.

As for the Tavern:
1) As per Foresight/Celerity, Batman goes before any other person in the Tavern, auto-succeeds to cast defensively, and teleports out, no one even gets to take a swing.
2) I don't often get a chance to hit people either, but when I do get a chance to hit someone who has done nothing to hurt me (or even someone who has) I don't take it.
3) I'm especially not going to do it to someone who could kill me with a thought. Why Would I pick a fight with someone vastly more powerful?

And all of this is without considering Astral Projection, the "I make Spell slots and Money out of nothing" spell.

Talya
2008-03-07, 02:28 PM
Divinations are a great way for a good DM to **** over a would-be "Batman" wizard. There's no better way to deceive than to give them exactly what they are asking for.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-07, 02:39 PM
Divinations are a great way for a good DM to **** over a would-be "Batman" wizard. There's no better way to deceive than to give them exactly what they are asking for.

And how would you do that?

Lapak
2008-03-07, 02:41 PM
So now Batman can't use Divinations, and sits in a tavern in the middle of an AMF?No one is saying that a wizard can't use Divinations, but several people are asking the reasonable questions of 'what limitations are there on divinations in the rules as written'? There are strict limits on what you can find out, and unless the wizard is willing to sit and play question-and-answer about possible upcoming threats for several hours each and every day, it's a fair point to note that a wizard, even a Batman wizard, could potentiallybe taken by surprise. Unless the definition of Batman wizard includes 'someone so paranoid that they devote all of their time to avoiding threats', in which case there's no reason to bother killing him in the first place.


Or do you think that the ToBer is hunting the Wizard? We already established that it wasn't fair to give one superior knowledge. And if one was going to have superior knowledge who would it be? The guy with Divinations who can teleport from city to city, or the guy with a Sword who walks?I would expect it to be 'the guy who is after the other guy', which isn't stated in the original post and so I'd guess neither one.


As for the Tavern:
1) As per Foresight/Celerity, Batman goes before any other person in the Tavern, auto-succeeds to cast defensively, and teleports out, no one even gets to take a swing.This, again, is one of the things that people tend to assume about Batman: he has Foresight up at all times. All times. Even in the shower. Even while out having a nice drink. It's not a long-term buff!

And all of this is without considering Astral Projection, the "I make Spell slots and Money out of nothing" spell.I may be misunderstanding Astral Projection here, but are we assuming that Batman never actually spends any time on the Material plane and is Astral Projected at all times, leaving his body potentially defenseless?

GammaPaladin
2008-03-07, 02:42 PM
Guys... For gosh sakes...

If you need a character that can win this... Just go Jade Phoenix Mage.

Still a ToB character ;)

Talya
2008-03-07, 02:45 PM
And how would you do that?

There's nobody you cannot send down the wrong path by giving them some extra, and completely true, if utterly misleading information. Divinations are always limited in what they provide.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-07, 03:14 PM
No one is saying that a wizard can't use Divinations, but several people are asking the reasonable questions of 'what limitations are there on divinations in the rules as written'? There are strict limits on what you can find out, and unless the wizard is willing to sit and play question-and-answer about possible upcoming threats for several hours each and every day, it's a fair point to note that a wizard, even a Batman wizard, could potentiallybe taken by surprise. Unless the definition of Batman wizard includes 'someone so paranoid that they devote all of their time to avoiding threats', in which case there's no reason to bother killing him in the first place.

The poster I am specifically replying to in effect starts with the assumption that Batman has no preparation at all, no knowledge and is randomly jumped by a stranger in a tavern. This stranger apparently also has an AMF up, just in case he ran into a Wizard, that's the definition of ridiculous preparation, because having an AMF is a huge disadvantage for every conceivable situation except ambushing a Wizard from up close. (If the Wizard ambushes you, you lose, if any non-Wizard character fights you, you start at a disadvantage.)

Not to mention, with the Spontaneous Divination substitution feature, you can prepare whatever you want for the day, and at the end of it, turn all your extra spells into Divinations about tomorrow. This doesn't address the limitations of the individual spells, but it does allow them to use those spells several times at effectively no cost.


I would expect it to be 'the guy who is after the other guy', which isn't stated in the original post and so I'd guess neither one.

Right, but instead of arranging for some equal level challenge like, say a prearranged duel, or a tavern brawl where neither opponent had foreknowledge of the fight, the suggestion was that the Wizard should come in, sit down, and the Random man X in the corner who had never seen him before would get up, walk over, activate an AMF and start wailing on him all at once without the Wizard seeing any of it coming. (even though he has a spell which exists for the sole purpose of seeing things like that coming actively running on him at that moment.)


This, again, is one of the things that people tend to assume about Batman: he has Foresight up at all times. All times. Even in the shower. Even while out having a nice drink. It's not a long-term buff!

It's something people tend to assume because it makes sense, I know about five ways to Persist spells and/or extend their duration to 8 hours (if duration is 10 minutes per caster level) I can think of very few buffs worth keeping up for that long more then Foresight. Foresight is the First one I'm going to Persist/Extend with my huge CL. Not to mention you are for some strange reason assuming that the Wizard walks around without it? You do realize that eight hours is plenty of time to do everything you need to do that day when you can teleport around all day, and go rest in your Genesis Plane the rest of the time.


I may be misunderstanding Astral Projection here, but are we assuming that Batman never actually spends any time on the Material plane and is Astral Projected at all times, leaving his body potentially defenseless?

Or he could leave his body in his Genesis Plane where no one but him is ever allowed access, and he is 100% safe against non-deities?

Lapak
2008-03-07, 04:25 PM
The poster I am specifically replying to in effect starts with the assumption that Batman has no preparation at all, no knowledge and is randomly jumped by a stranger in a tavern. This stranger apparently also has an AMF up, just in case he ran into a Wizard, that's the definition of ridiculous preparation, because having an AMF is a huge disadvantage for every conceivable situation except ambushing a Wizard from up close. (If the Wizard ambushes you, you lose, if any non-Wizard character fights you, you start at a disadvantage.)Aha. I apologize for jumping in midway, then; I didn't realize you were responding to that particular argument (which does seem unreasonable.)

Not to mention, with the Spontaneous Divination substitution feature, you can prepare whatever you want for the day, and at the end of it, turn all your extra spells into Divinations about tomorrow. This doesn't address the limitations of the individual spells, but it does allow them to use those spells several times at effectively no cost.The cost is not my main problem; it's the effort. As someone else suggested, a wizard with sufficient resources could get access to nigh-unlimited divinations in a number of ways. (This is important, since the class substitution feature you suggest clashes with other substitutions that people call on when giving Batman an advantage. As someone else said, you can have many of these at your fingertips but not all of them!)

My primary objection is spending a hour or more a day on the off chance that you'll be endangered. A theoretical person might not mind doing this, but any actual person almost certainly wouldn't want to spend a good chunk of their day playing 'what is the next significant danger I will face?' 'Will it happen before tomorrow?' 'Is it an accidental danger or a deliberate one?' 'Who is the ultimate cause of this danger?' until you've pinned down exactly what the trouble is - and no one that I've noticed in any of these arguments has presented a divination plan that is any less involved than that. Brushing off that much time and mental energy spent every single day forever just to avoid danger - when you're already an entity capable of saving himself from almost any conceivable danger that you may run into - seems like a bit of a stretch to me.


Right, but instead of arranging for some equal level challenge like, say a prearranged duel, or a tavern brawl where neither opponent had foreknowledge of the fight, the suggestion was that the Wizard should come in, sit down, and the Random man X in the corner who had never seen him before would get up, walk over, activate an AMF and start wailing on him all at once without the Wizard seeing any of it coming.Yes, that is ridiculous.


It's something people tend to assume because it makes sense, I know about five ways to Persist spells and/or extend their duration to 8 hours (if duration is 10 minutes per caster level) I can think of very few buffs worth keeping up for that long more then Foresight. Foresight is the First one I'm going to Persist/Extend with my huge CL. Not to mention you are for some strange reason assuming that the Wizard walks around without it? You do realize that eight hours is plenty of time to do everything you need to do that day when you can teleport around all day, and go rest in your Genesis Plane the rest of the time.
Well, again, it's a ninth level spell to start with. Even Batman doesn't have an unlimited amount of those, and burning them every day makes other tactics that often get brought up (every combo that starts with Time Stop, for example) less viable. You're burning a monstrous amount of resources to avoid danger that you can avoid 999 times out of 100 to begin with: a slew of divinations, a spell of your maximum level (and the cash/charges/uses/resources required to Persist it) and planar travel to boot. When you're already one of the mightiest beings in existence. This is the basic thing that makes me question the 'Batman wizard' as an actual, practical possiblity to begin with: it is a character that spends a significant portion of its power to protect itself against nonexistent threats at the cost of any real quality of life. He lives all alone in a demiplane of his own creation at all times, except when he Astral Projects out to spend time with people. Which requires a couple of hours of prep time to cast enough divinations to establish his safety, plus using up a good chunk of his daily spells to prep himself for trouble. (Foresight, Celerity, Timestop seem to be the absolute bare minimum he is expected to have. Two of those are max-level spells. I know we're usually talking 20th level when we talk about these things, but it pretty much rules out Batman in the way people think of it until 19th level at least.)

And he does this to go drinking with his friends?

Now probably, most of you are saying 'of course it's a theoretical exercise. It's no more likely than Pun-Pun.' But the concept of the 'Batman wizard' is treated utterly differently than out-and-out omnipotence builds, despite the fact that Batman-as-envisioned-by-many is far, far less likely to actual be executed at any point.


Or he could leave his body in his Genesis Plane where no one but him is ever allowed access, and he is 100% safe against non-deities?I've also never had anyone explain how the demiplane is sealed against access. It certainly makes you safer (at the cost of 'having a life' as mentioned above) but I don't see how it makes you immune. The spell description doesn't imply that no one can travel there but you, IIRC?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 04:37 PM
I may be misunderstanding Astral Projection here, but are we assuming that Batman never actually spends any time on the Material plane and is Astral Projected at all times, leaving his body potentially defenseless?You can Astral Project and then return to the Material Plane and go about your life. Your body is left somewhere that is completely unreachable, probably inside a mountain, maybe in a Genesis Plane(not sure how that spell works).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-07, 04:56 PM
The cost is not my main problem; it's the effort. As someone else suggested, a wizard with sufficient resources could get access to nigh-unlimited divinations in a number of ways. (This is important, since the class substitution feature you suggest clashes with other substitutions that people call on when giving Batman an advantage. As someone else said, you can have many of these at your fingertips but not all of them!)

I can't think of a single other substitution that Batman needs. That's the only one, and it only comes at the cost of a single feat (or two levels of Wizard instead of two levels of Master Specialist) and is highly worth it if allowed in game (it's so much better then any other option that it isn't often allowed.)


My primary objection is spending a hour or more a day on the off chance that you'll be endangered. A theoretical person might not mind doing this, but any actual person almost certainly wouldn't want to spend a good chunk of their day playing 'what is the next significant danger I will face?' 'Will it happen before tomorrow?' 'Is it an accidental danger or a deliberate one?' 'Who is the ultimate cause of this danger?' until you've pinned down exactly what the trouble is - and no one that I've noticed in any of these arguments has presented a divination plan that is any less involved than that. Brushing off that much time and mental energy spent every single day forever just to avoid danger - when you're already an entity capable of saving himself from almost any conceivable danger that you may run into - seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

But that's a silly statement, Batman can deal with almost any danger if he has Foresight, true, but that doesn't mean he should go around unbuffed. And as for spending an hour... I see it as fun, I think I have a personality very suited to being Batman (though sadly not a 36 Int score and tons of spells) but I would find it very fun and mentally challenging to work out how best to secure my safety using as few Divinations as possible. Then I would use all the rest for more spying/divining that I would also find entertaining.


Well, again, it's a ninth level spell to start with. Even Batman doesn't have an unlimited amount of those, and burning them every day makes other tactics that often get brought up (every combo that starts with Time Stop, for example) less viable. You're burning a monstrous amount of resources to avoid danger that you can avoid 999 times out of 100 to begin with: a slew of divinations, a spell of your maximum level (and the cash/charges/uses/resources required to Persist it) and planar travel to boot. When you're already one of the mightiest beings in existence. This is the basic thing that makes me question the 'Batman wizard' as an actual, practical possiblity to begin with: it is a character that spends a significant portion of its power to protect itself against nonexistent threats at the cost of any real quality of life. He lives all alone in a demiplane of his own creation at all times, except when he Astral Projects out to spend time with people. Which requires a couple of hours of prep time to cast enough divinations to establish his safety, plus using up a good chunk of his daily spells to prep himself for trouble. (Foresight, Celerity, Timestop seem to be the absolute bare minimum he is expected to have. Two of those are max-level spells. I know we're usually talking 20th level when we talk about these things, but it pretty much rules out Batman in the way people think of it until 19th level at least.)

But I can build a Wizard with an Init mod of +19 as early as level 3. Batman isn't 100% invulnerable until level 17, but he is significantly safer then the average adventurer from long before that time. Divinations are not needed, Foresight covers 99.9% of all situations on it's own.

Also note that at level 17, he can cast just one spell Astral Projection, and it gives him 100% safety. Make a Scroll of Gate, two Scrolls of Greater Planeshift, and cast Astral Projection from your demiplane. Now Planeshift to Sigil, sell the Gate scroll, Planeshift to wherever else you want to be, have a good time. All those scrolls will be there next time, and the money for the Gate scroll can be set up in a dropoff to pay for more material components for the next Astral Projection (plus Profit). Sure if you get attacked you might lose (add in a single casting of Celerity for winning 99.9% of any fights you'll get into) but even if you lose all that happened is your drinking night was ruined.


I've also never had anyone explain how the demiplane is sealed against access. It certainly makes you safer (at the cost of 'having a life' as mentioned above) but I don't see how it makes you immune. The spell description doesn't imply that no one can travel there but you, IIRC?

It says that you can determine all it's planar traits and dictate who can enter the plane. IE you can set it up so no one but you can ever enter. Or no one but you and your girlfriend. Or no one but you and your good Succubus friend.

Lapak
2008-03-07, 05:07 PM
I can't think of a single other substitution that Batman needs. That's the only one, and it only comes at the cost of a single feat (or two levels of Wizard instead of two levels of Master Specialist) and is highly worth it if allowed in game (it's so much better then any other option that it isn't often allowed.)He doesn't need it, and it's possible (assuming it's not barred); I was just pointing out that it's not the only one he's credited with, depending on the argument.

But that's a silly statement, Batman can deal with almost any danger if he has Foresight, true, but that doesn't mean he should go around unbuffed. And as for spending an hour... I see it as fun, I think I have a personality very suited to being Batman (though sadly not a 36 Int score and tons of spells) but I would find it very fun and mentally challenging to work out how best to secure my safety using as few Divinations as possible. Then I would use all the rest for more spying/divining that I would also find entertaining.Do you wear a bulletproof vest every day?

Do you wear a helmet while driving around in your car?

Do you check the news for storms, fires, criminal activity and environmental hazards before leaving your house?

Those are three things you can do to increase your own chances of survival more than a 20th-level wizard casting divinations to detect danger when he already has Foresight and Celerity up increases his. If you're not doing at least that, I'm skeptical that you have the mindset you're ascribing to this Wizard.


But I can build a Wizard with an Init mod of +19 as early as level 3. Batman isn't 100% invulnerable until level 17, but he is significantly safer then the average adventurer from long before that time. Divinations are not needed, Foresight covers 99.9% of all situations on it's own.Sure. But 'significantly safer' and 'invulnerable' are different things. He can be killed, and doesn't get most of the things he needs to be absolutely safe until pretty late in his career. Without the Astral Projection and Genesis, he needs things like Contingent Teleports or walking around all the time with Greater Invisibility on to achieve anything like the same level of safety.

Also note that at level 17, he can cast just one spell Astral Projection, and it gives him 100% safety. Make a Scroll of Gate, two Scrolls of Greater Planeshift, and cast Astral Projection from your demiplane. Now Planeshift to Sigil, sell the Gate scroll, Planeshift to wherever else you want to be, have a good time. All those scrolls will be there next time, and the money for the Gate scroll can be set up in a dropoff to pay for more material components for the next Astral Projection (plus Profit). Sure if you get attacked you might lose (add in a single casting of Celerity for winning 99.9% of any fights you'll get into) but even if you lose all that happened is your drinking night was ruined.
Certainly that's an interesting interpretation of the RAW 'you create equipment and etc.' - I can't argue against it rules-wise, but it's another thing that's about as likely as Pun-Pun to be allowed.

It says that you can determine all it's planar traits and dictate who can enter the plane. IE you can set it up so no one but you can ever enter. Or no one but you and your girlfriend. Or no one but you and your good Succubus friend.I don't see where the 'decide who can enter' is listed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 10:32 AM
He doesn't need it, and it's possible (assuming it's not barred); I was just pointing out that it's not the only one he's credited with, depending on the argument.

It is the only one he's credited with. There are two substitutions Batman would ever take, Divination Substitution and Abrubt Jaunt. He doesn't need either one, but nor does having either one conflict with having everything else that makes him Batman. (Personally, I'd rather have my Familiar, but whatever.) Name another substitution feature mentioned anywhere in this thread.


Do you wear a bulletproof vest every day?

Do you wear a helmet while driving around in your car?

Do you check the news for storms, fires, criminal activity and environmental hazards before leaving your house?

Those are three things you can do to increase your own chances of survival more than a 20th-level wizard casting divinations to detect danger when he already has Foresight and Celerity up increases his. If you're not doing at least that, I'm skeptical that you have the mindset you're ascribing to this Wizard.

And you don't understand what Batman is about. Batman is not about being as paranoid as possible. He is about being as effective as possible. Doing all those things would decrease my effectiveness in my life, and would therefore be stupid. The reason Batman casts Extended Foresight or Astral Projection is because it costs him nothing. I am saying that I, like Batman may also, enjoy the idea of using Divinations for the joy of knowledge and the challenge of the puzzle. I have always been quick to point out that being under a Persistent Foresight, and having Celerity and Teleport prepared makes Batman invulnerable against anyone that isn't smarter then him and doesn't have a better plan. (So obviously you need a plan to go with it, but you'll have it if you are really playing Batman.) Divinations are just there as something else that he can do that is awesome.


Sure. But 'significantly safer' and 'invulnerable' are different things. He can be killed, and doesn't get most of the things he needs to be absolutely safe until pretty late in his career. Without the Astral Projection and Genesis, he needs things like Contingent Teleports or walking around all the time with Greater Invisibility on to achieve anything like the same level of safety.

Regular Invis works about as well, though yes, you could persist Greater Invis as early as level 9. I Personally Prefer Persisting Greater Blink, but that's just me. And of course spells like Overland Flight make him immune to 90% of enemies at the level that he gets them.


Certainly that's an interesting interpretation of the RAW 'you create equipment and etc.' - I can't argue against it rules-wise, but it's another thing that's about as likely as Pun-Pun to be allowed.

That's not an interesting interpretation, it's the only possible one. The spell specifically says that you can use scrolls while Astral Projected and they will still be on your person. That's how it works. And it's so incredibly ridiculous that DMs need to ban it, trust you not to abuse it, or accept the fact that you are 100% invulnerable.


I don't see where the 'decide who can enter' is listed. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)

That's because the "SRD" copy of the spell is different from the original. When Printed the spell says, "The caster determines the planar traits when he casts the spell." On the list of Planar traits is time flow, environment, assorted other factors, and who can enter the plane.

Lapak
2008-03-08, 11:46 AM
It is the only one he's credited with. There are two substitutions Batman would ever take, Divination Substitution and Abrubt Jaunt. He doesn't need either one, but nor does having either one conflict with having everything else that makes him Batman. (Personally, I'd rather have my Familiar, but whatever.) Name another substitution feature mentioned anywhere in this thread.Abrupt Jaunt is what I was thinking of, which is another substitution. And I conceded that it's not critical.
And you don't understand what Batman is about. Batman is not about being as paranoid as possible. He is about being as effective as possible. Doing all those things would decrease my effectiveness in my life, and would therefore be stupid. The reason Batman casts Extended Foresight or Astral Projection is because it costs him nothing.Wearing a helmet to drive would cost you considerably less than casting Extended Foresight and Astral Projection every time he wants to leave his home costs the mage. Much less. It costs you nothing beyond the initial cost and six seconds to put the helmet on when you go; it costs him two max-level spell slots and at least one use of a limited-uses item. That makes him much less effective for relatively little gain. It's not efficiency, it's paranoia.
I am saying that I, like Batman may also, enjoy the idea of using Divinations for the joy of knowledge and the challenge of the puzzle. I have always been quick to point out that being under a Persistent Foresight, and having Celerity and Teleport prepared makes Batman invulnerable against anyone that isn't smarter then him and doesn't have a better plan. (So obviously you need a plan to go with it, but you'll have it if you are really playing Batman.) Divinations are just there as something else that he can do that is awesome.And again, I don't have an issue with a character who does this occasionally, or has a reason to believe that he might be under threat, or as a hobby every week or so. But one of the constants of the argument is that he does it all the time, without fail, every day. I love solving puzzles, and do it as a hobby. I participate in MIT mystery hunts. I also enjoy internet forums, and video games, and reading, and knitting, and lifting weights. But I don't do any of these things every. single. day. ever. without fail - that's not an enjoyable hobby, that's an obsession. And it's what Batman is consistently credited with.

Regular Invis works about as well, though yes, you could persist Greater Invis as early as level 9. I Personally Prefer Persisting Greater Blink, but that's just me. And of course spells like Overland Flight make him immune to 90% of enemies at the level that he gets them.90% isn't immunity, and neither is Greater Blink or Greater Invis. Effective and well-protected characters I've got no problem with. Characters who gain complete immunity through theoretical exercises who no one, either playing the game or living in the game world, would actually go through - that's what I have a problem with.
That's not an interesting interpretation, it's the only possible one. The spell specifically says that you can use scrolls while Astral Projected and they will still be on your person. That's how it works. And it's so incredibly ridiculous that DMs need to ban it, trust you not to abuse it, or accept the fact that you are 100% invulnerable.Which is why I entered the argument to begin with - things like this. I honestly don't understand why people assume that Batman is any more viable than Pun-Pun, but he's consistently treated that way.
That's because the "SRD" copy of the spell is different from the original. When Printed the spell says, "The caster determines the planar traits when he casts the spell." On the list of Planar traits is time flow, environment, assorted other factors, and who can enter the plane.Ah. I'll have to take your word for it; I don't have the written version. I'd be a little surprised to find that it's a blanket absolute, with no method of circumvention or workaround by other ninth-level planar travel spells or Epic characters, but if it is then it is.

Diamondeye
2008-03-08, 12:26 PM
The poster I am specifically replying to in effect starts with the assumption that Batman has no preparation at all, no knowledge and is randomly jumped by a stranger in a tavern. This stranger apparently also has an AMF up, just in case he ran into a Wizard, that's the definition of ridiculous preparation, because having an AMF is a huge disadvantage for every conceivable situation except ambushing a Wizard from up close. (If the Wizard ambushes you, you lose, if any non-Wizard character fights you, you start at a disadvantage.)

The poster you are referring to (that would be me) did NOT suggest that the Wizard is sitting completely unbuffed in a tavern when someone with an AMF attacks him for no reason. I said he could get atacked in a tavern.. maybe by an old enemy.

I did not mention AMFs at all, I said the ToB character might invest in some sort of magic to prevent scrying on him or his home. That does not automatically mean antimagic field.

I also have not yet seen any explaination of how Batman always has every spell in the game in his book, or of what happens if batman is not yet 17th level and can't cast celerity.

I suggest you read posts a bit more carefully so as to avoid the appearance of strawmanning.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 12:52 PM
Abrupt Jaunt is what I was thinking of, which is another substitution. And I conceded that it's not critical.

Yes, and my point is that there are two possible substitutions ever mentioned as possibilities for Batman, and whenever presenting solutions to problems, we always show how he could deal with it even without those substitutions. And it is possible to have both, since one replaces the familiar, and the other replaces his level 5 feat. They don't conflict.


Wearing a helmet to drive would cost you considerably less than casting Extended Foresight and Astral Projection every time he wants to leave his home costs the mage. Much less. It costs you nothing beyond the initial cost and six seconds to put the helmet on when you go; it costs him two max-level spell slots and at least one use of a limited-uses item. That makes him much less effective for relatively little gain. It's not efficiency, it's paranoia.

Wearing a helmet to drive would cost me the money for the helmet, decreased field of vision, looking like a paranoid, and therefore being less effective in my dealings with others. All this for no gain since 99% of possible problems I might have while driving would not turn out any better because I was wearing a helmet.

Compare this to casting a 9th level spell, which if he didn't cast wasn't likely to be used that day anyway, and getting a buff that solves every single problem. If I (myself) could one 9th level spell a day I would cast Astral Projection, because it is a 100% invulnerability against any accident I might have. And all it costs is a resource which replenishes daily. If you don't cast every spell every day, then you wasted all those spells. It's not a waste to cast a spell and get little benefit from it, it's a waste to not cast it.

If you could choose between being invulnerable or having one extra spell to kill people with (keeping in mind that you already have about 40 of those anyway) which would you choose?

Also, I wasn't planning on using an item, just the metamagic extension or persist open to all Incantatrixes from making a Spellcraft check.


And again, I don't have an issue with a character who does this occasionally, or has a reason to believe that he might be under threat, or as a hobby every week or so. But one of the constants of the argument is that he does it all the time, without fail, every day. I love solving puzzles, and do it as a hobby. I participate in MIT mystery hunts. I also enjoy internet forums, and video games, and reading, and knitting, and lifting weights. But I don't do any of these things every. single. day. ever. without fail - that's not an enjoyable hobby, that's an obsession. And it's what Batman is consistently credited with.

No it's not. You credit Batman with consistent Divinations. I credit him with using all his left over spell slots just because he can and as a magical replenishing resource it makes sense to do so and is enjoyable.

Stop claiming X is always attributed to Batman and it can't be so because Y. X isn't always attributed unless it is Foresight. Saying that Batman can't do X because some other poster somewhere said he did Y doesn't work. Batman is a conglamoration of the best ideas of many people. You can't just add in bad ideas and say how Batman sucks.


90% isn't immunity, and neither is Greater Blink or Greater Invis. Effective and well-protected characters I've got no problem with. Characters who gain complete immunity through theoretical exercises who no one, either playing the game or living in the game world, would actually go through - that's what I have a problem with.

No one ever claimed Batman was 100% immune to everything (before Astral Projection) The Claim is thus, "Batman is significantly better then non-Batman." This is true, being Persistently Invisible is better then not. Being Persistently Flying while Invisible and having AoE disable spells or single target disable spells or both is better then not.

And secondly, why would no one living in the game world undergo this? Or playing it for that matter. I do sometimes in campaigns where it is appropriate. And certainly across all of the people in the world there would be some people capable enough and willing to do exactly these things.


Which is why I entered the argument to begin with - things like this. I honestly don't understand why people assume that Batman is any more viable than Pun-Pun, but he's consistently treated that way.

First of all because Batman doesn't need Astral Projection, it's just an instant I win button in any theoretical exercise. Foresight/Celerity has a 99% effectiveness that certainly makes Batman better then most other characters. Secondly, some people play in whiny games where the DM bans things left and right just because everything in the universe should conform to their view of what is the right power level. Other people play in games with competent creative open-minded DMs who can make the game challenging and fun even if you Astral Project from a Genesis plane.


Ah. I'll have to take your word for it; I don't have the written version. I'd be a little surprised to find that it's a blanket absolute, with no method of circumvention or workaround by other ninth-level planar travel spells or Epic characters, but if it is then it is.

It's just one of those things. The Planar trait says you can determine who can enter the plane with no explanation of ways to get in without being generally accepted. And no spell references obscure Planar Traits like that. It's poorly thought out and written. Or rather, fell prey to the fact that no one can remember everything in even the core three, surely when they said "determine the planar traits" they were not intentionally giving Wizards the ability to create plain where they could sleep for eight hours, refresh spells, and then return in the exact round they left. But they did.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-08, 03:43 PM
Batman is a grey elf wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 3/ X 2 (where X is anything the increases wizard casting) who took the Elf generalist sub level, banned evocation when entering Incantatrix, and took the Spontaneous Divination substitution feature.

Buffs that last all day, either through persistent or regular duration (this is just off the top of my head):
Shapechange
Foresight
Ironguard
MindBlank
Greater Anticipate Teleport
Astral Projection (after all other buffs)
Greater Blink
Superior Invisibility (if you don't mind spending all day invisible and undetectable)

----
Most things you run into can be dealt with by shapechanging into a dragon or some other creature. If they can't then you use either Orbs or Evenerations to deal with the threat (and I can get Orbs that do 300 damage out of a 4th level slot. Or quickened envenerations that deal anywhere from 13 to 22 negative levels, and potentially a lot more if I make all of the attack rolls.
-----
I sleep in an MMM inside a Mages Private Sanctum inside a Prismatic Sphere (or my Astral Projection does, my real body is on a custom plane with lots of other defenses).

And in the event that my batman faces something that he can't deal with on his own, well then he pulls out the poke'balls. 20 LeShay riding Great Wrym Prismatic Dragons with an escort of 2 Solars each. :smallwink:

----
And after my long day of adventuring I use any left over spells for such things as Contact Other Planes where I ask questions like the following:
1) Is anyone investigating my activities?
a) Do they plan on causing me or my activities harm?
b) Can they use magic?
c) Can they travel to other planes?
d) Do they have support from any forces equal to or greater than me in power?

2) Will anyone or anything attempt to assassinate me tomorrow?
(Insert some more questions to get specifics, like above)
3) Has anyone excepted a contract to kill me?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-08, 05:55 PM
And in the event that my batman faces something that he can't deal with on his own, well then he pulls out the poke'balls. 20 LeShay riding Great Wrym Prismatic Dragons with an escort of 2 Solars each. :smallwink:

Meh, I may have missed this from the last thread, but isn't that a little suboptimal? Now that Elder Evils is out, you might be better off using mind shards of Pandorym - they're super effective.

Or, I dunno, hecatoncheires riding great wyrm prismatic dragons. The only thing a LeShay's got going for it is the ridiculous charm person effect.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-08, 06:07 PM
Meh, I may have missed this from the last thread, but isn't that a little suboptimal? Now that Elder Evils is out, you might be better off using mind shards of Pandorym - they're super effective.

Or, I dunno, hecatoncheires riding great wyrm prismatic dragons. The only thing a LeShay's got going for it is the ridiculous charm person effect.

Oh, the LeShay's aren't optimum. I just find them fun/funny. It's not like the riders matter anyways, the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons cast as 38th level sorcerers so I get to mess around with Epic Casting if I really want to.

-----
I just Wish Umbral Blot's weren't immune to Mind Rape. Having a bunch of them would be fun but I need their type changed. And shapechange is personal only and they can't make the UMD check. I really don't want to use epic magic to change their type though.

Hmm. Polymorph and Object might work.

Lapak
2008-03-08, 06:14 PM
Yes, and my point is that there are two possible substitutions ever mentioned as possibilities for Batman, and whenever presenting solutions to problems, we always show how he could deal with it even without those substitutions. And it is possible to have both, since one replaces the familiar, and the other replaces his level 5 feat. They don't conflict.I'm not sure how many times you'd like me to concede this point, but we'll try one more.
Wearing a helmet to drive would cost me the money for the helmet, decreased field of vision, looking like a paranoid, and therefore being less effective in my dealings with others. All this for no gain since 99% of possible problems I might have while driving would not turn out any better because I was wearing a helmet.One of the most likely causes of death in an accident is head injury, which is why race drivers wear them. Assuming you don't wear the helmet outside the car, it costs you nothing in your interactions with others.
Compare this to casting a 9th level spell, which if he didn't cast wasn't likely to be used that day anyway, and getting a buff that solves every single problem. If I (myself) could one 9th level spell a day I would cast Astral Projection, because it is a 100% invulnerability against any accident I might have. And all it costs is a resource which replenishes daily. If you don't cast every spell every day, then you wasted all those spells. It's not a waste to cast a spell and get little benefit from it, it's a waste to not cast it.They do replenish daily, but 9th level spells are both his most powerful resource and the one he has the least of.
If you could choose between being invulnerable or having one extra spell to kill people with (keeping in mind that you already have about 40 of those anyway) which would you choose?I don't have 40 ninth level spells, and killing people is not necessarily what I'm using them for, and I'm beyond unlikely to die without this one regardless.
No it's not. You credit Batman with consistent Divinations. I credit him with using all his left over spell slots just because he can and as a magical replenishing resource it makes sense to do so and is enjoyable.

Stop claiming X is always attributed to Batman and it can't be so because Y. X isn't always attributed unless it is Foresight. Saying that Batman can't do X because some other poster somewhere said he did Y doesn't work. Batman is a conglamoration of the best ideas of many people. You can't just add in bad ideas and say how Batman sucks.

No one ever claimed Batman was 100% immune to everything (before Astral Projection) The Claim is thus, "Batman is significantly better then non-Batman." This is true, being Persistently Invisible is better then not. Being Persistently Flying while Invisible and having AoE disable spells or single target disable spells or both is better then not.
You've touched on the heart of what I'm saying here without seeing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Batman cannot do X, Y or Z at any point. At most, I've said that he has to choose between X and Y or that I wasn't clear on a rules issue that allowed Z. I've also never, at any point in this discussion, said that Batman sucks as a build or cannot accomplish such-and-so a task. (If I did so at any point in passing, consider it retracted.)

Further, I've never said that Batman-style builds are a bad idea for 3.x wizards. They're manifestly a good idea in 95 out of 100 situations.

What I take issue with is 'no one has said that Batman is 100% immune to anything." That's exactly what I take issue with, because he's dragged out in every third thread as the argument against any other tactic or build. Given that the full-scale fully-immune Batman is an unreasonable build dependent on several things that would be ruled against in many or most campaigns, I fail to understand why it's considered that different from 'but it couldn't beat Pun-Pun.'


And secondly, why would no one living in the game world undergo this? Or playing it for that matter. I do sometimes in campaigns where it is appropriate. And certainly across all of the people in the world there would be some people capable enough and willing to do exactly these things.Probably there would be one or two, as there are some people paranoid enough to spend a good chunk of their money and time on protecting themselves.

First of all because Batman doesn't need Astral Projection, it's just an instant I win button in any theoretical exercise. This is the kind of statement that annoys me. It's not an 'I win' button, it's an 'I survive' button; there is a difference.
Foresight/Celerity has a 99% effectiveness that certainly makes Batman better then most other characters. Secondly, some people play in whiny games where the DM bans things left and right just because everything in the universe should conform to their view of what is the right power level. Other people play in games with competent creative open-minded DMs who can make the game challenging and fun even if you Astral Project from a Genesis plane.Ah. Excellent. 'If you disagree with me, you're a whiny person who is not open-minded enough to deal with an obvious broken rule.' But more to the point: you realize that you're claiming that Batman has an 'I win' button in one sentence and claiming that he can be challenged in the next.

Do tell. If you're assuming the full-on, rules as written Batman with the Genesis plane Astral Projection money machine, divinations, Foresight, Celerity and all - what exactly would you suggest as an example of a meaningful challenge for this character?

It's just one of those things. The Planar trait says you can determine who can enter the plane with no explanation of ways to get in without being generally accepted. And no spell references obscure Planar Traits like that. It's poorly thought out and written. Or rather, fell prey to the fact that no one can remember everything in even the core three, surely when they said "determine the planar traits" they were not intentionally giving Wizards the ability to create plain where they could sleep for eight hours, refresh spells, and then return in the exact round they left. But they did.So if I ban this I'm in a whiny campaign, despite the fact that you admit that this particular confluence of rules had an un-intentioned game-breaking effect?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 10:40 PM
One of the most likely causes of death in an accident is head injury, which is why race drivers wear them. Assuming you don't wear the helmet outside the car, it costs you nothing in your interactions with others.

One of the most likely causes of death when driving at normal speeds is not having your seat belt on and slamming your head against the windshield. But if you wear your seatbelt, you will not die from a head injury. You might still die from your car being so ****ed up you never stood a chance, but that's different.


They do replenish daily, but 9th level spells are both his most powerful resource and the one he has the least of.

And Foresight is his most valuable use for a 9th level spell, followed by Shapechange. Do you not cast buffs because you don't want to "waste" your spells? The most important thing is to use as many 9th level spells per round, per combat. If Foresight gives you a round every combat, that is far better then using that slot once to end one encounter, especially since that encounter would be ended just as well by an 8th level spell.


I don't have 40 ninth level spells, and killing people is not necessarily what I'm using them for, and I'm beyond unlikely to die without this one regardless.

You are unlikely to die because you were missing that one extra 9th level slot that would have saved you. You are very likely yo die because you prepared Wail of the Banshee instead of Foresight. At level 20 anyone can die in one round. Being able to go first is critical. What happens when a Charging Barbarian Shocktroopers into you for 400 damage? Sure you might have Greater Blink up, but you now have a 50% chance of dieing. What about the damage dealing Wizard that delivers in excess of 500 damage? What about the Full Attack with a Bow Rogue who, (since you apparently think persist buffing yourself is a waste of time and spellslots) full attacks for 350 damage? I mean sure I'd have been immune to the sneak attack since level 9, but that's because I "waste" my highest level spells on Persist buffing.


You've touched on the heart of what I'm saying here without seeing what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Batman cannot do X, Y or Z at any point. At most, I've said that he has to choose between X and Y or that I wasn't clear on a rules issue that allowed Z. I've also never, at any point in this discussion, said that Batman sucks as a build or cannot accomplish such-and-so a task. (If I did so at any point in passing, consider it retracted.)

But just because he can only do X (which wins the fight for him) or Y (which also wins the fight for him) in that round doesn't mean he couldn't do the other against someone else next round. You talk about spell slots as if it is actually possible to run out of them.


Further, I've never said that Batman-style builds are a bad idea for 3.x wizards. They're manifestly a good idea in 95 out of 100 situations.

Glad we agree.


What I take issue with is 'no one has said that Batman is 100% immune to anything." That's exactly what I take issue with, because he's dragged out in every third thread as the argument against any other tactic or build. Given that the full-scale fully-immune Batman is an unreasonable build dependent on several things that would be ruled against in many or most campaigns, I fail to understand why it's considered that different from 'but it couldn't beat Pun-Pun.'

1) Many and most campaigns don't ban those things that make Batman Batman.
2) No one says that Builds suck because Batman is better. The OP asked who wins, we answered. If he had asked "who wins Pun-Pun or ToB?" I'd have answered Pun-Pun.
3) Batman is very reasonable and very powerful. Most people don't play him, just like most people don't play CoDzilla because it is a roleplaying game, and we like to play many different roles. Only one out of every ten of my characters is even close to Batman, and then always with a different twist.


This is the kind of statement that annoys me. It's not an 'I win' button, it's an 'I survive' button; there is a difference.

If you have a 100% chance to survive anything and your opponent does not, you win. Especially because tomorrow you can wake up, cast 40+ Divination spells about the person who just "killed" you (But no one would actually waste that time!) Astral Project again, then hunt down and catch by surprise the person who just did that.

It drastically changes the possible outcomes. In a simplified world let's say that whomever catches the other by surprise wins and that both parties aware equates to 50% chance either way. If you get surprise killed, with AP you now get to play again, unless you opponent has it, you are going to win. Not to mention, your opponent is quite likely to be surprised when you show up and pound him, so you are not only going to inevitably win, but you are likely to win soon.


Ah. Excellent. 'If you disagree with me, you're a whiny person who is not open-minded enough to deal with an obvious broken rule.' But more to the point: you realize that you're claiming that Batman has an 'I win' button in one sentence and claiming that he can be challenged in the next.

It was an example of two extremes, not the only two possibilities. And yes, I realize that Batman can win against anyone, but that doesn't mean he can't be challenged.


Do tell. If you're assuming the full-on, rules as written Batman with the Genesis plane Astral Projection money machine, divinations, Foresight, Celerity and all - what exactly would you suggest as an example of a meaningful challenge for this character?

Well since I usually don't start my campaigns too high up there, usually by level 15ish the players have saved/subjugated the kingdom/world and in the process have come up with their own goals, which I can play off of in any number of ways. After level 15 my games take on a Simulationist bent, with them choosing from a great many actions. But some things that work in most situations are:

1) A powerful Wizard rival, possibly once a friend/peer challenges him in a game of interplanar chess, where each attempts to accomplish some goal, there may be a bet, there will probably be rules.
2) Different (or same after getting mad at being declined) Wizard starts tracking and jumping them, this fight is endless, and results in some very fun scenarios.
3) Vecna shows up personally in their Genesis Plane (DM Fiat is the only way to run Gods, or they all have Alter Reality and that somehow trumps Genesis I don't know because I don't bother with Stats for Gods) and hands them his Hand/Eye, then leaves. Assorted Weirdness follows.
4) Orcas is at it again, (information usually obtained when they Divine about serious threats) Do as you wish. (The usually decide to tear apart his cults and face own them.)
5)If no one is undead or otherwise Immortal, they all die of old age, and wake up in Plane X as level whatever characters. (Start a new campaign, but in an interesting way, they can also keep the same characters, though they usually don't because everyone likes to play different roles.)
6) If someone is undead, see how long they last with the Whole Might Of Pelor aimed at them. (After all, the PCs are big name at this part, and if the Church of Pelor brings in all it's level 20 Clerics it can certainly foil many activities of the PCs, pissing them off and giving them something to focus on for a while.)


So if I ban this I'm in a whiny campaign, despite the fact that you admit that this particular confluence of rules had an un-intentioned game-breaking effect?

Everything has an intentioned gamebreaking effect. The ability to Persist 5th level spells at level 9 breaks the game as intended. It doesn't break the game as written though, you just have to accept that you are playing a different game.

That said, as I mentioned it was a statement about extremes. I have one DM who thinks Monks and Psionics are broken, and bans them, along with half of my character ideas from all his campaigns. I have another DM who quite literally says, anything in the books use, I will find a way to make it fun and interesting. Guess which one I have more fun under.

It's the difference between treating it as a game versus treating it as a story, one person wants to play a game, the other wants to tell a story, if you don't fit in his story you are ruining it for him. Whereas the other just finds a way you fit in his story because he accepts that stories change.

Lapak
2008-03-09, 09:16 AM
One of the most likely causes of death when driving at normal speeds is not having your seat belt on and slamming your head against the windshield. But if you wear your seatbelt, you will not die from a head injury. You might still die from your car being so ****ed up you never stood a chance, but that's different.You can still whip your head around into something, have something loose in the car hit you, or have your seatbelt fail. Regardless, since the wizard is going so far as to live on an alternate plane of his own creation, completely isolated from the rest of the universe, you're going to have to go pretty far to convince me that you're in that mindset. Live in a locked house with no windows deep in the woods to avoid being shot in a home invasion, for example.

And Foresight is his most valuable use for a 9th level spell, followed by Shapechange. Do you not cast buffs because you don't want to "waste" your spells? The most important thing is to use as many 9th level spells per round, per combat. If Foresight gives you a round every combat, that is far better then using that slot once to end one encounter, especially since that encounter would be ended just as well by an 8th level spell.There are other things to do with 9th level spells than fight monsters. I'd hope that the wizard spends most of his time doing other things.
(since you apparently think persist buffing yourself is a waste of time and spellslots) full attacks for 350 damage? I mean sure I'd have been immune to the sneak attack since level 9, but that's because I "waste" my highest level spells on Persist buffing.I never said it was a waste. Persisted protection buffs are a valuable thing when you're adventuring. I said that it seems less than likely that a wizard would use his most powerful resource to protect himself every day of his life. This is why I'm saying that no one 'in the game world' would do this. We have the luxury of treating the character as a game piece that only comes into focus during adventures, but they would actually be doing something with their lives. To pick another recommended Persisted buff, it would be mildly inconvenient to (for example) go on a date while being incorporeal 50% of the time.

But just because he can only do X (which wins the fight for him) or Y (which also wins the fight for him) in that round doesn't mean he couldn't do the other against someone else next round. You talk about spell slots as if it is actually possible to run out of them.Highest-level spell slots, yes.
Glad we agree.We don't have any disagreement about the mechanical benefits; just the realistic chances of someone actually living this way.

1) Many and most campaigns don't ban those things that make Batman Batman.
2) No one says that Builds suck because Batman is better. The OP asked who wins, we answered. If he had asked "who wins Pun-Pun or ToB?" I'd have answered Pun-Pun.
3) Batman is very reasonable and very powerful. Most people don't play him, just like most people don't play CoDzilla because it is a roleplaying game, and we like to play many different roles. Only one out of every ten of my characters is even close to Batman, and then always with a different twist.At a minimum, I've never played in a campaign that allowed a spell combination that made you functionally immortal. (Genesis + Astral Projection.) On the same score, I've never played in one that would allow the Astral Projection money machine, either, both for in-character and out-of-character consequences. In-character, it eliminates one entire resource (and endless money is insanely powerful in 3.X for magical boosts alone, leaving aside other considerations.) Out-of-character, if you can do it so can every other caster that can use Astral Projection, and even Sigil's economy would collapse if there was an endless free supply of magical items - not even going INTO what the endless supply of magical items would have on the world through their direct influence.

If you have a 100% chance to survive anything and your opponent does not, you win. Especially because tomorrow you can wake up, cast 40+ Divination spells about the person who just "killed" you (But no one would actually waste that time!) Astral Project again, then hunt down and catch by surprise the person who just did that.I've said again and again that Divinations make sense in the presence of a known threat. As for the other half of what you're saying, I'll addrss that below.


1) A powerful Wizard rival, possibly once a friend/peer challenges him in a game of interplanar chess, where each attempts to accomplish some goal, there may be a bet, there will probably be rules.
2) Different (or same after getting mad at being declined) Wizard starts tracking and jumping them, this fight is endless, and results in some very fun scenarios.
3) Vecna shows up personally in their Genesis Plane (DM Fiat is the only way to run Gods, or they all have Alter Reality and that somehow trumps Genesis I don't know because I don't bother with Stats for Gods) and hands them his Hand/Eye, then leaves. Assorted Weirdness follows.
4) Orcas is at it again, (information usually obtained when they Divine about serious threats) Do as you wish. (The usually decide to tear apart his cults and face own them.)
5)If no one is undead or otherwise Immortal, they all die of old age, and wake up in Plane X as level whatever characters. (Start a new campaign, but in an interesting way, they can also keep the same characters, though they usually don't because everyone likes to play different roles.)
6) If someone is undead, see how long they last with the Whole Might Of Pelor aimed at them. (After all, the PCs are big name at this part, and if the Church of Pelor brings in all it's level 20 Clerics it can certainly foil many activities of the PCs, pissing them off and giving them something to focus on for a while.)So the options you present, in capsule form, are:
- pissing around with rivals for zero-stakes games-playing
- directly confronting gods so you can Rule Zero around the very immunities that make Batman into Batman while leaving enough flexibility for a challenge (sounds an awful lot like houseruling out the things that make Batman, but maybe that's just me)
- Throwing the party away and starting over.
- Inconveniencing people who don't have any meaningful goals in the first place

None of that strikes me as very entertaining. It also misses that one realistic challenge: that of a time limit. (This is where I address the 'I win' button from above.) If your opponent is going to crack the world like an egg, an hour from now, you don't have the luxury of going after him again and again from your safe Genesis haven. The one meaningful challenge for Batman is the one where he doesn't get a re-try because there's consequences for losing. It doesn't help a great deal, since the DM can only play this card a couple of times at best before it becomes very sad indeed. "What, another ancient artifact is about to destroy the multiverse? How many of those are lying around, anyway?"

The worst part of this is that you have to go to these extremes because of one character who is breaking the power curve for everyone else. The fighter, the rogue, even the cleric becomes meaningless, because the rest of the party isn't really significant anymore. Their characters and their backstory and their goals are in a pointless back seat where if the Batman-wizard has a minute he'll fix things for them, but they're not really necessary.


Everything has an intentioned gamebreaking effect. The ability to Persist 5th level spells at level 9 breaks the game as intended. It doesn't break the game as written though, you just have to accept that you are playing a different game.

That said, as I mentioned it was a statement about extremes. I have one DM who thinks Monks and Psionics are broken, and bans them, along with half of my character ideas from all his campaigns. I have another DM who quite literally says, anything in the books use, I will find a way to make it fun and interesting. Guess which one I have more fun under.

It's the difference between treating it as a game versus treating it as a story, one person wants to play a game, the other wants to tell a story, if you don't fit in his story you are ruining it for him. Whereas the other just finds a way you fit in his story because he accepts that stories change.And there's nothing wrong with having fun with a game. You're not playing it wrong if you allow every world-breaking poorly written rule as long as you're having fun with it. As you say, though, you are playing a different game; I'd argue that it's that direction that moves it more in the direction of story-telling than gaming - it's a collaborative story where the players have as much ability to say what happens as the DM does, with little-to-no chance of them being wrong about it. And there's nothing wrong with that! There's nothing wrong with playing a one-shot or a whole campaign where every character is a God and they are meddling with mortals, either; an Iliad campaign where the players are the Greek gods and influencing one side or the other would be pretty cool, actually.

But it's not the experience that most people think of when they think of D&D.

EDIT: I should add at this point (having gone back through my own post) that you're quite right - there's nothing inherently wrong with a Batman build, or playing as one. And I have no objection to anyone playing one in their own game. The only reason I entered this argument in the first place was to argue against the constant theoretical trotting-out of the build whenever the subject of 'which would win' comes up, and I think everyone's got the point by now that I don't think it's a topic of interest. Belaboring the point any further is just going to irritate everyone, so I'm more than willing to let it go.

RE-EDIT: And heck, I do sound pretty judgmental in the 'potential challenges' section, for which I apologize. It wouldn't be fun for me, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun for you.

Armar
2008-03-09, 01:19 PM
You can still whip your head around into something, have something loose in the car hit you, or have your seatbelt fail. Regardless, since the wizard is going so far as to live on an alternate plane of his own creation, completely isolated from the rest of the universe, you're going to have to go pretty far to convince me that you're in that mindset. Live in a locked house with no windows deep in the woods to avoid being shot in a home invasion, for example.

Coparing Astral Projection to using a helmet when driving a car is wrong in so many ways. First of all, Astral Projection doesn't have a time limit. That's right, you have to cast it only once and after that you are free to do as you please. Second of all, Astral Projection doesn't require you to wear anything specific while you use it. It's only a one time investment of 1005 gp, which is a ridiculously low price for a spellcaster capable of casting 9th level spells. Third of all, it has no chance of failure. If you die, you return to your body, that's it. With helmet there's always the possibility of it not being strong enough, or some other part of your body being damaged lethally. And at last, you don't have to live inside a locked house that's completely cut out from society, you can move freely anywhere you want; as an Astral Projection.

Now, the more fitting thing in our world would be this: AP-insurance is a thing that costs you less than you can earn with a hours work, doesn't hinder you at all, and makes you unkillable. If you die for some reason, you instead wake up in a completely sealed room, where you might have to spend few hours until you can get your AP-insurance again, and get back to living. And you can do this as often as you want.

Now tell me that you wouldn't buy that kind of insurance.:smallconfused:


There are other things to do with 9th level spells than fight monsters. I'd hope that the wizard spends most of his time doing other things.I never said it was a waste. Persisted protection buffs are a valuable thing when you're adventuring. I said that it seems less than likely that a wizard would use his most powerful resource to protect himself every day of his life. This is why I'm saying that no one 'in the game world' would do this.

When I look at the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, all of the 9th level spells without XP component are either buffs or spells for fighting monsters. Since you aren't most likely going to fight monster while living a normal life, you most likely are going to self-buff anyway, especially the persisted Foresight. It takes less time than brushing your teeth or using the loo, so it's not a big thing to do when you wake up in the morning. And who knows, it might either save your life or allow you to dodge in time when someone sneezes at you. And you seem to forget that these resources are replenished each day, and your only options on using them is either "Kill monsters" or "Protect self". Why waste such resources by not using them?

asphen fox
2008-03-10, 08:09 AM
Guys... For gosh sakes...

If you need a character that can win this... Just go Jade Phoenix Mage.

Still a ToB character ;)

:smallbiggrin: Nice try but theoretically... Full casters can own any half caster or below. JPM's no full caster. XD It won't work. :P

GammaPaladin
2008-03-10, 03:43 PM
JPM is an 8/10 caster. If you're Wizard 9/Swordsage 1/JPM 10, you are effectively Wizard17, for spells known, spells per day, and caster level. Practiced Spellcaster brings your Caster Level up to 20.

And you're still a ToB character, if not a pure ToB character.

But yeah, Caster Level 20, Initiator Level 15. It's pretty strong.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-10, 03:56 PM
JPM is an 8/10 caster. If you're Wizard 9/Swordsage 1/JPM 10, you are effectively Wizard17, for spells known, spells per day, and caster level. Practiced Spellcaster brings your Caster Level up to 20.

And you're still a ToB character, if not a pure ToB character.

But yeah, Caster Level 20, Initiator Level 15. It's pretty strong.

Not to mention fun things like Blowing up in someones face only to reform later.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-10, 05:34 PM
Honestly, when you're Caster 20, Initiator 15, things like that are just gravy. Even without Practiced Spellcaster, that build can hit Caster 18, just by using a swift action and giving up the benefits of his stance for a round. Or Caster 20 using a fire spell.

asphen fox
2008-03-11, 06:12 AM
JPM is an 8/10 caster. If you're Wizard 9/Swordsage 1/JPM 10, you are effectively Wizard17, for spells known, spells per day, and caster level. Practiced Spellcaster brings your Caster Level up to 20.

And you're still a ToB character, if not a pure ToB character.

But yeah, Caster Level 20, Initiator Level 15. It's pretty strong.

What I know though is that you'll still lose 3 levels of spell progression. That sucks. :P

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-11, 06:51 AM
What I know though is that you'll still lose 3 levels of spell progression. That sucks. :P

At level 20 it doesn't suck much, as long as you have access to 9th level spells you might as well just be the same character with other cool things. It sucks at every level 19 and below when you are short a spell level, but not at 20.

Saph
2008-03-11, 08:31 AM
You know, I think the one thing I'm most looking forward to about 4e is that it'll finally get people to stop promoting this idiotic "Batman" concept.

The idea of a Batman wizard was originally set out in TLN's guide as a wizard who effectively uses his spell slots in a party role by focusing on battlefield control and debuffs instead of direct damage. Somehow, over the past year, it's mutated on this board into this retarded idea of a wizard whose only motivation in life is to reduce every risk down to zero and spends his every waking hour plotting endlessly about how to avoid getting assassinated on his next trip down to the shops. (I think the reason it's gotten so stupid is largely due to Tippy, but a bunch of other people do it as well.)

It's become totally and utterly divorced from any normal D&D game. Questions like "What level are you playing at?" "What's the rest of the party doing?" and "What is the DM going to throw at you to challenge you?" are just ignored.

- Saph

Funkyodor
2008-03-11, 09:50 AM
To get back on topic, I am unsure what specific Stances/Maneuvers you would need. But you need:
- Someway to prevent scrying from affecting you
- A block for Mage's Disjunction (how I'm not sure)
- Rod of absorption to counter targeted spells, maybe two rods.
- Something that stops movement decreases & holds
- A wiget that will keep him from flitting away via teleport, dimention door, plane shift, etheral jaunt, etc...
- An item of flight
- A way to see him without error
- A plan within a plan within a plan within a plan. In other words a One-Two-Three-Four punch. Because if there is a backup plan he might anticipate a backup-backup plan, but no one will guess a backup-backup-backup plan. For example, divining where his teleport contingency will put him and setting a trap there, but not protecting that plan from being divined. With another plan to wait in ambush for him to stop you setting the trap for the first plan, you can jump him with a final plan to lie in wait on the etheral plane anticipating an etheral jaunt... Wait I'm confused...

The biggest part is the hardest to get. Something that will stop him from destroying your stuff. Because if he can't target dispel the flying widget, or run away, slow/stop you, morph you, and you can see him all the time. Then you get to fly over and beat him with a block of cheddar.