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Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 08:30 AM
Hi all

I have a gish character I took out for his first play last weekend at 12th level.

His build is

str 26 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 18 Wis 13 Cha 8 ( with items )

Half -Orc

Barbarian Power Attack
Barbarian
Fighter extend spell( swapped at higher levels from dodge, house rule)
Fighter Arcane disciple(see above)
Focused specialist transmuter with familiar exchanged for swift shape from PHII
transmuter Combat Casting
Abjurant Champion
Abjurant Champion
Abjurant Champion Craft Wondrous item
Abjurant Champion
Abjurant Champion
Spellsword Craft arms and Armor


He swings a great sword with power attack. Now, the huge AC he got in the fights, 42+ while power attacking with wraithstrike made him hard to hit and a damage dealing monster. He completely outshone the other melee guy and full spellcasters over the course of a six hour adventure. I think my dm might be rightly thinking he is overpowered, while I was quite surprised, as the prevailing wisdom is that full spellcasters will always rule. Though on the utility side he falls down a little, with three banned schools, evoc, illus & necro.

With buffs power attacks for 11
4 attacks with haste
+12/+12/+7/+2 touch attacks for 2d6 (+2d6 holy) + 12 + 22 damage, and three of them will probably connect, for 140+ damage a round


And that is not even considering that with arcane disciple, a buffed wisdom and divine might I will rule at 13 th.

What do you guys think. Is he too twinky?

UglyPanda
2008-03-04, 08:40 AM
You only do massive damage on a full attack and you don't have anything that gives you more mobility. You can't do massive damage on a charge (lion totem, leap attack, or shock trooper). You don't have any battlefield control abilities (Combat reflexes, reach weapon, stand still). Not overpowered. I'm confused as to how you got such a high AC, though.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-04, 09:05 AM
Combat casting is a bad feat. Skill focus: concentration is better, and even that probably isn't necessary.

CWI is not a good feat for gishes. Craft armor is not so useful period, because of the extremely limited amount of usage they get. At any rate, if you're a gish, crafting isn't your role. I'd suggest more metamagic feats, or perhaps armored caster, or perhaps a reserve feat or two.

Overpowered is measured against the other characters in your group. It may be that they're simply not as good as optimizing as you are, even though your character isn't overpoweringly optimized as measured on these boards.

I'm surprised that you can enter Abjurant Champion with just two wizard levels; I'd have to look that up.

Person_Man
2008-03-04, 09:06 AM
How can you be overpowered when you're not even a half caster?

Also, why is your DM allowing an illegal rebuild (Extend Spell and Arcane Disiple before you qualify)? Arcane Disciple isn't even a Fighter bonus feat, so its doubly illegal at ECL 4 for this build.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-04, 09:06 AM
You need combat casting to enter Abjurant Champion

Nebo_
2008-03-04, 09:11 AM
Looks like a pretty standard Gish, but with Barbarian at the start instead of wizard. I can't imagine why...

Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 09:34 AM
Barbarian was for flavour and roleplaying. The dm missed the fighter bonus feat exchange, as dfid I so I should change that. Combat casting is for Abjrant Champion.

As regards movement, with expeditious retreat and haste I move very quickly, I have a swift ability to fly when needed.

I had no problem getting the full attack when we played and was pretty effective even without the wraithstrike full attack.

My point was that in play, this build was incredibly effective, regardless of all the caster discussions etc. In play it worked extremely well.

AC. 10 + Chain Shirt(+4) +4 Troglodyte Form (+5) Dragonskin (+4) Shield(+9) Dex(+4) = 42

Add on a haste bonus, combat expertise when needed and protection from evil and it just gets better.

Answering this post by saying, you are not overpowered because you are a half caster is not really a helpful response, because I walked all over the enemy wizard no problem who was level 13 or 14 and he had time to prep. With this build I have a lot of swift spells and extended spells for no extra cost. This means I am casting useful spells and hitting people with a big stick, making the big stick very effective. Also my saves are pretty good, especially with heroism and a magic tattoo on. True, sometimes I might fail a save, but that can happen to the wizard too.

Iku Rex
2008-03-04, 09:41 AM
It's a pretty standard melee mage build. Abjurant Champion is overpowered, but not so much as to be "broken". Arcane Disciple is not a big deal, since you'll only be able to cast righteous might once/day, and you'll have to buy a Wis-booster to do even that.

The only problem is the broken spell wraithstrike.

BTW, I made a similar character to showcase wraithstrike a while back. I'll repost it in case you want a look.




Holy Arcane Warrior
Core + Complete used

Human Paladin 4/Sorc 2 /Abjurant Champion (CMag) 5/Spellsword (CWar) 1 (lv12)

(Variant: Fighter4/Focused Specialist (CMag) 2... for a wizard based build. No divine grace from paladin and no Divine Might feat, but more feats and more skill points due to higher Int.)

25 pb


Levels Item Total
Str 14 +4 18 (+4)
Dex 12 +2 14 (+2)
Con 14 +2 16 (+3)
Int 8 8 (-1)
Wis 12 12 (+1)
Cha 13 +3 +2 18 (+4)


Feats (1,1,3,6,9,12): Power Attack, Combat Casting, Improved Toughness (CWar), Somatic Weaponry (CMag 47), Divine Might (CWar), Arcane Strike (CWar)

(Variant: Arcane Preparation [CArc] and Extend Spell for Extended wraithstrikes.)

Weasel Familiar

Spells known:
4th (4/day, 1 known): Heart of Earth (CMag)
3rd (6/day, 2 known): Haste, Heroism
2nd (7/day, 3 known): Wraithstrike (CAdv, SC), Alter Self, See Invisibility
1st (7/day, 5 known): Shield, Enlarge Person, Swift Expeditious Retreat (CAdv), Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement

Equipment (88000 max):
4000 Amulet of Health +2
11350 +1 keen adamantine falchion
6000 Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag)
4100 Armbands of Might (CAdv)
16000 Belt of Strength +4
4000 Cloak of Charisma +2
10100 +3 Mithral Chain Shirt
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
4000 Gloves of Dexterity +2
9000 Vest of Resistance +3 (CArc)
8000 Ring of Protection +2

6450 left

Combat: Will usually cast heart of stone, heroism and alter self before battle.
Casts haste and shield in first round (swift shield thanks to abjurant champion).

No holds barred option:

AB:
+11 BAB
+4 Strength
+2 heroism spell
+1 haste spell
+1 enhancement weapon
-11 Power Attack
+4 Arcane Strike 4th level spell.
= +12/+12/+7/+2

Damage:
2d4 weapon
+6 Str
+1 enhancement weapon
+22 Power Attack
+2 armbands of might
+4 Divine Might
(+4d4 Arcane Strike)
= 2d4+35+4d4, 15-20/2x

AC:
10 base
+2 Dex
+6 troglodyte
+7 armor
+9 shield spell
+1 haste
+1 ioun stone
+2 ring of protection
= AC 38

Saves (fort/ref/will):
4/1/1 paladin
0/0/3 sorcerer
1/1/4 abjurant champion
2/0/2 spellsword
4/4/4 divine grace
2/2/2 heroism
3/3/3 vest of resistance
3/2/1 ability scores
0/2/0 familiar
---
Fort +19, Ref +15, Will +20

Average hit points: 10 + 3d10 (Pal) + 2d4 (Sorc) + 5d10 (AC) + d8 (SS) + 12*3 (Con) +12 (ImpTough)= 111 hit points (+22 temporary from heart of earth)

Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 09:47 AM
Thanks for that, a very similar build but more detailed. Extended wraithstrike is an awesome idea. I basically had the same spell choice as you. So my question is, was that overpowered in play, or was it ok. My Half-Orc kicked some serious butt with those abilities and had enough cool extra stuff to be surprising.

Galdor

Iku Rex
2008-03-04, 10:18 AM
So my question is, was that overpowered in play, or was it ok.Ah, I never got to play it. Wraithstrike is banned in our group, and if it wasn't I'm not sure if I'd have the stomach to use it. http://i32.tinypic.com/2efoq6x.jpg

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-04, 10:18 AM
The nice thing about wraithstrike is that because touch attacks rarely fail to connect against a CR appropriate encounter (and your almost perfect BAB makes this even more true), it's like a swift action activated true strike that lasts long enough for a full-attack.

If your DM wants to challenge you, he should include an NPC or two that does dispells and uses counterspelling and possesses a very high touch AC. Like a Pixie Warlock or a properly specialized Rakshasa Sorcerer, for example. More spells with Reflex saves would be good too.

And if you want to get the most out of wraithstrike you can extend it for free with a single Feat, Arcane Thesis. If you're going the Persistant wraithstrike route you might still want Arcane Thesis, as with it and the Easy Metamagic (Persistant) feat you can cast Persistant wraithstrike as a 6th level spell instead of an 8th level spell.

Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 10:37 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I think it is true that the wraithstrike is what is overpowered here, and made my guy too powerful. I will chat with the dm and come up with a fix for it.

Cheers all.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-04, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I think it is true that the wraithstrike is what is overpowered here, and made my guy too powerful.
That, and whatever polymorph or alter self effect you're using for troglodyte form.



Looks like a pretty standard Gish, but with Barbarian at the start instead of wizard. I can't imagine why...
Barbarian is arguably a better gish starter than fighter - better HP, more skills.

Zincorium
2008-03-04, 11:43 AM
Taking barbarian also gives you a reasonably powerful alternative to spellcasting. The only problem is that making spells work during rage, is rage mage. And that's quantifiably worse than just waiting until you're done casting to rage (or vice-versa).

Keld Denar
2008-03-04, 12:02 PM
Yeah, you can't rage and cast wraithstrike at the same time, unless you are a ragemage which is one of the most poorly designed PrCs in the game.

I'd recommend also using Whirling Blade as one of your 2nd level spells. Its the gishes gunblade. You can use it to attack foes at a really long range, or attack multiple foes at max BAB. You can also power attack with it, arcane strike with it, and use it with divine might.

Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 12:45 PM
Great tip about the whirling blade spell. Kind of like a super powered range weapon.


I am just glad none of you guys were too harsh about the half-orc choice, but it really doesn't not matter a whole lot if I drop those two points on intelligences, because i is still how hard I hit with a sword that counts.

Galdor

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-04, 01:27 PM
You loose four caster levels with your build. This makes CharOp cry.

How about: Lion Totem Barbarian2/Focused Specialist Transmuter4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5

This gives you two extra caster levels, which gives you access to a whole new level of spells. It also gives you Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champions, which lets you make a full attack on a charge... necessary for any hulk smash type build.

Feats:

1st Power Attack (Pounce from Lion Totem)
3rd: Improved Bull Rush
6th: Combat Casting
9th: Shock Trooper
12th: Arcane Disciple

The Plan:

You've got a good idea, but why don't we bring in Power Attack/Shock Trooper into the mix? If you can boost your Wis, you can even cheeze with Divine Power for even more broken-ness. Shock trooper is almost not necessary, since you're not going to miss even with full PA due to wraithstrike. If you feel the need, trade out Shock Trooper for Leap Attack.

Have fun.

weenie
2008-03-04, 04:02 PM
Weird nobody mentioned this before. Drop the chainshirt and cast a Greater Luminos Armor(BoED) in the morning. Extended if possible. +13 to AC(17 if foe attacks you in melee).

Frosty
2008-03-04, 04:11 PM
Doesn't Luminous Armor require str damage as a material component? And don't take rage. Take a variant Barbarian that trades rage for Favored enemy and other stuff.

Galdor Miriel
2008-03-04, 04:44 PM
The luminous armor is in one of our few banned books, hence the chain shirt which does quite well thank you very much and gives me an excellent bonus. I did not have complete champion and did not consider the other build. Remember what the post is about, I was actually trying to make an interesting character, who has a real back story that fits the class choices. I was actually surprised by how effective he was and how much better he was in play than the full casters. My question was is this build overpowered, not how can I make him even more gorgonzola like.

Optimisers always say, do not lose caster levels, it is bad. For the build that I played I found the casters levels did not matter, because all the spells I need are low level, and the higher level spells are just fodder for arcane strike.

Thanks for the comment though.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-04, 08:46 PM
I was actually surprised by how effective he was and how much better he was in play than the full casters. My question was is this build overpowered, not how can I make him even more gorgonzola like.

Optimisers always say, do not lose caster levels, it is bad. For the build that I played I found the casters levels did not matter, because all the spells I need are low level, and the higher level spells are just fodder for arcane strike.

But your build isn't better then a full caster, it's better then some full casters much much lower on the cheese train. Abjurant Champion for Gishes is like Incantatrix for Wizards, and Wraithstrike is like Arcane Thesis (Enervation). All you did was build a Gish version (IE much less powerful) of the stinky cheese found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73941) thread.

Nebo_
2008-03-04, 08:54 PM
How about: Lion Totem Barbarian2/Focused Specialist Transmuter4/Spellsword1/AbChamp5

That build is illegal unless you're taking Heavy Armour Proficiency as a feat.

I've been playing a gish from level 1 for the past year, now, and I've found a very good way of dealing with Wraithstrike so it doesn't unbalance the game. Don't use it. A gish is still very powerful without it.

lumberofdabeast
2008-03-04, 10:07 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but what's a gish?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-04, 10:15 PM
Gish is a term used to indicate a character/build that can both fight and cast magic.

Comes from waaaaay back in the day, before the D20 system, when the Gith were magic based rather than psionic based, and they could both fight and use magic. Eventually, it evolved from Gith to Gish.

John Campbell
2008-03-04, 11:46 PM
Oddly, I've been playing D&D for 25 years now, and I'd never heard the term until I joined this forum.

Back in the day, we called them "elves".

kamikasei
2008-03-05, 04:22 AM
Comes from waaaaay back in the day, before the D20 system, when the Gith were magic based rather than psionic based, and they could both fight and use magic. Eventually, it evolved from Gith to Gish.

Actually, gish was an in-character term for githyanki warrior-wizards, not corruption of the name of the race as a whole.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-06, 02:01 AM
Looks like a fun PC. Is Tome of Battle banned? A dip into Warblade might be nice for augmenting combat options.

Toliudar
2008-03-06, 02:38 AM
To beat a dead horse, this build also can't get Righteous Might as currently constructed. Arcane Disciples still requires the regular wisdom you'd need to cast the spell if you were a divine caster. Righteous might, as a fifth level spell, requires Wisdom 15.

ColdBrew
2008-03-06, 12:55 PM
Looks like a fun PC. Is Tome of Battle banned? A dip into Warblade might be nice for augmenting combat options.
If you go this route, look into Jade Phoenix Mage. They get some neat abilities, a different version of Arcane Strike, and a magic boosting stance.

Person_Man
2008-03-06, 02:59 PM
RE: Wraithstrike

1) By mid-high levels, full casters can easily dominate combat if played strategically. So anything that helps PCs who want to hit stuff with a weapon probably isn't as powerful as you think it is.

2) There are multiple ways to ensure that someone who wants to hit stuff every turn can 95%ish of the time. Wraithstrike, Spectral Weapon, Fire Lash, Flame Blade, Master Thrower, Greater Invisibility, Confound the Big Folk, Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment, Freezing the Lifeblood, Deep Impact, Brilliant Energy, several Tome of Battle combos, etc. Touch attacks and/or No Dex bonus attacks and/or big bonuses To-Hit and/or big penalties to enemy AC just aren't that difficult to come by if you know what you're looking for.

3) If a PC does abuse Wraithstrike et al, and other players aren't abusing magic, and it is causing a problem, there are many other solutions a DM can use. High Touch AC, more enemies, Fast Healing, DR, Karmic Strike, etc. There is no Rock, Paper, or Scissors in a PC's arsenal that a thoughtful DM can't balance out for important combats.

4) Conversely, if Player A is Super Gish, and Player B is Weakass Samurai, you can just improve Player B's build, or have him go on a side quest to get a Legacy Weapon or other potent magic item, or give him a free cohort (or let him take Leadership), or something similar. Absolute power level of a PC isn't important, only their relative power compared to other PCs.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 03:08 PM
4) Conversely, if Player A is Super Gish, and Player B is Weakass Samurai,

Isn't Weakass Samurai kind of a redundant phrase? :smallconfused:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 04:18 PM
Just to be clear Person man, I'm not saying OMGWRAITHSTRIKE BROKEN!!

Wraithstrike fits fine when you also have moderately optimized casters and such, and the Gish build would not be out of place in any of my games (probably about Party average) but apparently he's going up against 12th level Wizards that are stupid enough to not be flying, so at that point, yes Wraithstrike does start becoming an I Win Button. Most things are when you play against idiots. (Not that your DM is one, just that he probably unfairly handicaps Wizards.)