PDA

View Full Version : How would I adjudicate this?



Frosty
2008-03-04, 02:32 PM
A player wants to be able to pin an opponent to a wall not by the clothing, but by piercing the arrow through the flesh of an opponent, making it much harder and more painful to remove. What kind of roll should I assign for that? A grapple check? Perhaps a bonus if they use manyshot like +2 for each arrow? Then perhaps a strength check for the creature to pull an arrow out, and a full-round action to pull out multiple arrows?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-04, 02:36 PM
There's a ranged pin feat (not sure where), but it's a waste of a feat. You may want to look it up for the mechanics, though.

Severus
2008-03-04, 02:36 PM
I would either not allow or require a feat to do this.

What you're trying to achieve here is sort of a limited hold person, or perhaps a ranged grapple. That's a pretty powerful ability in combat. My view is pretty much no minuses are going to be enough to do this.

The only alternative that seems palatable to me is something like the pin clothing where the character trades off doing damage for slowing the enemy down.

Of course, every game is unique, so it may work in your game, but I think this is pretty powerful as a combat move.

sonofzeal
2008-03-04, 02:42 PM
Ugh.... hmm.... well, there's already "ranged disarm" and "ranged trip", so a "ranged grapple" would be feasible. Have the Grapple Check be equal to the arrow's damage, not counting elemental damage dice? If those numbers look too high, apply a -4 or even -8 penalty because, really, that arrow should be taking a size penalty to grapple checks. As for getting free, I might allow them to roll again against the same grapple mod, but take 1 damage each time. If they get free, they still have an arrow in them, but that can be healed as normal. No need to apply extra damage coming out unless they're using special arrows or somesuch.

Aquillion
2008-03-04, 02:50 PM
Ugh.... hmm.... well, there's already "ranged disarm" and "ranged trip", so a "ranged grapple" would be feasible.The problem is that disarm and trip are fairly straightforward actions that occur and are then done. Grappling takes time, and involves risks and penalties to the person doing it for that entire time -- penalties that are going to be hard to translate to a bow. So, what, I can use Manyshot and grapple an entire roomful of orcs? That's probably not going to be very balanced.

I would say, basically... don't do it. Or alternately, try and find a similar feat or class ability you can modify, and keep all or most of its mechanical effects while preserving the flavor (maybe add some negligable damage at a minor cost, but no more.)

Frosty
2008-03-04, 03:01 PM
With Greater manyshot, you can pin up to 4 orcs in one turn. but then, since each orc is only getting pinned by one arrow, each orc has a good chance of avoiding being pinned in the first place or getting free in subsequent rounds. With standard Manyshot, all the arrows would pin one orc.

Perhaps a homebrew feat with a level requirement of 12? The question is how to tweak the mechanics so it's not too powerful. But then, at level 12, you have level 6 spells running around...

TempusCCK
2008-03-04, 03:15 PM
Really, this would only work if the opponent was up against a wall or you had some some of magic knockback bow.

I would make it so that you could only stick them to a wall if you dealt enough damage to penetrate their body and the wall, so you'd have to overcome hardness of the wall and deal enough damage to penetrate, maybe 20 or 30 damage plus hardness of the wall?

There's different ways to play it.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 03:22 PM
Correct. This only works near walls, or perhaps you can pin a foot to the ground if you're flying above.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-04, 03:24 PM
I would say make a feat for it... Ranged Grapple... that requires Penetrating Shot (from PHB2)

valadil
2008-03-04, 03:41 PM
Intuitively I'd say that the actual pin, should it succeed, would require some sort of fort check vs damage dealt to escape. You'd probably also have to assume it takes a certain amount of damage for an arrow to fully penetrate a body AND still have energy left for going into a wall. Whatever amount that is (10-15ish?) should be subtracted from the aforementioned fort save DC. Creature size ought to factor in somewhere.

As someone with significant competitive archery experience I wouldn't allow this as GM except in the most over the top of fantasy games.

Dr Bwaa
2008-03-04, 04:44 PM
As a couple others have pointed out, this requires a tremendous amount of force. You need to break the hardness of the wall (like... BREAK it. Hopefully these are wooden, low-quality walls) AFTER going through a body. However, going through a body in different places is going to be more or less possible:

First get Penetrating Shot: otherwise there's no way, but with it, it's relatively alright.

Arm: relatively easy to pin to the wall, but hard to hit.
Body: Not too hard to hit (AC), but you need a big friggin' bow or a javelin/spear to do this.
Leg: somewhere between arm and body.
Throat: Easiest to pin, hardest to hit (apply strangling +size mods to AC)
Head: if you crit for the kill, sure.

Altogether very hard. Maybe, if the player wants to do this, have him decide what body part to attempt to hit. Roll vs adjusted AC. Deal damage and if it exceeds (wall hardness + "body part hardness(this should be relatively low*"), a pin is made on that body part. To escape the "grapple" is a standard action that inflicts 1d3 damage or so.


*Considering that Penetrating Shot gives the ability to hit EVERYONE IN A 60-FOOT LINE, the body part hardness should be relatively low, or nothing.

Frosty
2008-03-04, 05:06 PM
Of course if the wall is so low quality, a strong creature like a troll might tear out a section of the wall and use it as an improvised weapon after being pinned to the wall. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2008-03-04, 06:09 PM
I would suggest that the arrow needs to do enough damage to pierce through the armor, the flesh, the armor on the other side of the flesh, and the wall.

Roll to hit normally, with a -4 or so penalty because it's not exactly easy what you're trying to do; then the arrow needs to do at least 20 damage for an arm, 30 for a leg, 40 for a torso. And sneak attack damage doesn't count for that, because that's not heavy damage but precision damage.

I don't see manyshot helping, really, in fact because of the precise aiming required I would disallow it comboing with manyshot.

Pulling the arrow out again would require a difficult strength check OR healing check and would do half the original damage again, plus a fort save DC equal to that half of damage to avoid being sickened with pain for the next half hour or so.

Megafly
2008-03-04, 06:37 PM
Sounds like a Feat "Penetrating Pin" that requires Penentrating Shot and Ranged Pin would fit the bill

Frosty
2008-03-04, 06:40 PM
Umm, the attack roll already simulates penetration of the armor or finding a chink in the armor, so that should not bring any difficulty.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-04, 08:39 PM
Just something I cooked up... it's a little rough around the edges... but I'd take it. :)


Penetrating Pin [General]
You are able to pin foes to the wall using well placed projectiles, not through clothing, but through flesh itself.
Prerequisites Ranged Pin, Penetrating Shot
Benefit
As a full round action you may make a ranged attack at an enemy adjacent to a wall. The enemy receives a +4 cover bonus to his AC against this attack. If the attack succeeds it deals normal damage and you may make a grapple check at a +4 bonus using your dexterity (Bows and Crossbows) or Strength (for thrown weapons).
If the check fails, the target is not pinned to the wall but the arrow remains impaled into them. They can remove the arrow with a DC 15 heal check dealing 1d8 damage, or they can remove it as a move action dealing 1d8+2 and they must succeed in a DC 15 fortitude save or be sickened for 1 round.
If the check succeeds, the target is considered grappled. Each round he can attempt to break the grapple. When the target wins the grapple he can make a Heal check as a free action (DC 15) to only take 1d8 damage. If that check fails, he takes 1d8+2 damage and must pass a fortitude check (DC 15) or be sickened.

Mut
2008-03-04, 09:55 PM
Hello,

Just a thought that you might bring up when discussing it with the player: if PCs have access to this trick, so will NPCs. (Now imagine two dozen kobold archers...) So it's in the players' interest that this not be too easy to learn or to pull off.

Parvum
2008-03-04, 10:12 PM
From Crystalkeep:

You may pin your opponent’s clothes / armor to a wall, tree, etc., that is within 5’. You must succeed on a Ranged Attack and then win an Opposed Grapple Check (size modifier still apply). If successful, you
opponent must make an Escape Artist check vs. DC 15 as a Standard Action to become free.

On Ranged Pin. Requires precise shot (surprise!) and some BAB.

Indon
2008-03-04, 10:24 PM
I would suggest that the arrow needs to do enough damage to pierce through the armor, the flesh, the armor on the other side of the flesh, and the wall.

And the wall has hardness, and halves the damage the arrow deals to it (arrows are not built to damage objects, nosiree).

I don't see it viable unless you have a ridiculous strength or magical (enhancement) bonus to your arrow damage.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-04, 10:44 PM
I'd roll it like this: The character makes a ranged grapple check: 1d20+Dex-8(arrows are tiny) versus the creature's grapple check(1d20+STR/DEX+Size). If he succeeds, then the creature is "grappled" by the arrow. If he fails, then the creature dodges/evades the arrow and the character's action is wasted.

Rutee
2008-03-04, 10:51 PM
IMO, I'd go with a grapple check, as suggested, but..

D20 + Dex + 2.

Yes, 10 more then it's supposed to have. Negating the penalty and adding a bonus, to account for /awesome/. But I try and support doing cool tricks in combat, and the only way to do this is to grant mechanical bonuses to doing so. Maybe some bonus exp for it too.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-05, 03:28 AM
I don't see it viable unless you have a ridiculous strength or magical (enhancement) bonus to your arrow damage.

Well, no. That was the point, after all. But a sufficiently high-level archery build could probably pull it off.