PDA

View Full Version : what about warlocks?



gnomas
2008-03-04, 09:29 PM
So there is obviously a lot of threads on these forums about which classes are overpowered/underpowered, and now I'm adding another one!

My question is, are warlocks (complete arcane) underpowered? If so, why?
By contrast, are they overpowered? Why?

And as a last thought...would multiclassing from warlock to rogue or a similar class be a good or bad idea?

Thanks in advance!

FlyMolo
2008-03-04, 09:37 PM
I quite like warlocks. I like the flavor, and they're pretty balanced.

Excellent to combine with another class, like Spellthief. (IMHO, anyway.)

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-04, 09:44 PM
Warlocks are generally though of to be mid/lower-tier in strength(higher with some of the newer books, such as Dragon Magic and Comp Mage), unless using some rules exploit or similar non-class specific power booster. By properly applying their abilities, a Warlock can be more powerful, usually by using Use Magical device to increase their versatility. Note that most Warlock builds that do significant damage are based partly off of a PrC found in the Fiendish Codex, usually in conjuncture with a way to regain Con Damage.

Ninjalitude
2008-03-04, 09:47 PM
What about the Darkness/Devils sight/Eldritch spam tactic?

Xefas
2008-03-04, 09:53 PM
Well, Warlocks aren't as powerful as a full-caster, simply for the reasons that they can't either 1) Become an unstoppable juggernaut of death or 2) slaughter an entire encounter with one well-placed spell. However, they're still a lot better than fighters/monks. The only cheese-factor they have is UMD, but that can be said of any rogue, bard, etc.

That said, they have a much shorter learning curve. While it does take a tiny bit of experience to pick Glitterdust out of the hodgepodge of text, Warlocks are pure blasty with a couple of cool tricks that any random guy off the street with no knowledge of the mechanics could have fun with ("On your turn, pick a guy and roll these monopoly dice. Or pick a guy and break his weapon. Also you can run on the walls").

Since my current party's roster includes a cleric, druid, wizard, swordsage, and a similarly powered homebrewed class, I beefed up NPC Warlocks by giving them Binding progression as the Binder class. Don't know if that'd be balanced in PC hands, but it has worked so far for NPCs accompanying the party for various amounts of time.

If your party isn't decked out in full-casters like mine is, then they're probably perfectly okay.

The_Snark
2008-03-04, 09:56 PM
Darkness is just a 20% miss chance, and you can still see through it (it's shadowy illumination, not pitch blackness). Darkness/Devil's Sight would be really good if Darkness were actually total darkness; unfortunately, it's not. (And even if it were, the warlock would be hurting his party just as much with the darkness as his enemies.)

I've always felt warlocks were nicely balanced. They're not as powerful as most standard spellcasters, but with well-chosen invocations they can manage to hold their own at pretty much any level. They compare well to rogues and the like, using invocations rather than skills. They have a few powerful options (Eldritch Glaive, the Hellfire Warlock, crafting) and quite a lot of passable ones (most invocations). Plus some abysmal ones, of course, but the same is true of every class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-04, 10:11 PM
Rogue/Warlock is a very viable combo. Amazing UMD synergy, and you can sneak attack with Eldrich Blast. Probably best to dip 4 levels into Warlock to be able to take 10 on UMD checks then slide into Rogue. See the Unseen and Walk Unseen make for a powerful combo.

Warlock isn't bad. It's not a nova class, but it's an infinite number of encounters class. In fact, I've made some homebrewed variant classes designed to replace the primary spellcasters (Arcanist for wiz/sorc, Priest for Cleric, I even redid the Bard, and I'm working on the Druid's counterpart now) because I like the system so much better than standard casting.

Vortling
2008-03-04, 10:13 PM
Warlocks are fun to play but they're a bit short on support. They only have one or two prestige classes and their invocation list isn't expanded in any books I remember. You could probably combine them nicely with a rogue to good effect as long as you have enough warlock to pick up the invisibility invocation.

AslanCross
2008-03-04, 10:21 PM
Warlocks definitely can't pump out as much damage as Wizards can in a single round, and neither do they have as many options. They do have a few very unique options, however. They have some self-buffs that last a whole day. (Fell flight and Dark One's Own Luck, to name a couple) Very few Wizard spells have that duration and although they do have Metamagic, Warlocks don't even need it. Also, Warlocks can recast their invocations at will if dispelled. Also, at-will Invisibility FTW.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Warlocks are very good UMD characters. Wands and scrolls can allow them to emulate Wizard and Cleric capabilities. At higher levels, they can even craft their own wands and scrolls without knowing the spells needed.

Dragon Magic gave the Warlock a very good melee option (Eldritch Glaive), while FC2 gave us the Hellfire Warlock prestige class, which dramatically increases the Eldritch Blast's damage output.

The Warlock really looks underwhelming at first glance, but looking weak when compared to the Wizard really isn't a good measure of a class's power.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 10:41 PM
Rogue/Warlock is a very viable combo. Amazing UMD synergy, and you can sneak attack with Eldrich Blast.It's also good for someone who doesn't like managing limited resources, since both invocations and skills can be used as often as you want. With a standard spellcaster, you always have to ask "Should I use this spell here, or will I have greater need for it some time later today?", but with a warlock or rogue, the only thing limiting your use of your nifty abilities is your number of actions: You never need to hold back.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-05, 12:17 AM
The standard warlock is pretty weak, relatively speaking. You'll never match a full caster and your selection of Invocations is EXTREMELY limited. Because your Eldritch blast is a standard action, you're blown away in damage by a rogue the moment the rogue gets multiple attacks. What the Warlock class has to look forward to is having one of the more awesome UMD skills, where they can manufacture and use almost any item, scroll, or other magic device.

There are a few things the Warlock can do to lessen these drawbacks. Eldritch Glaive from Dragon magic lets you get in multiple attacks with your full attack, and is highly recommended at later levels when you can fly around and be invisible all the time. No one expects a glaive attack to come from directly above them.

Also recommended is Hellfire Warlock from Fiendish Codex II. It adds +2d6 Hellfire damage every single level, instead of +1d6 every 3 or 4 levels. You'll usually need to sacrifice a level to take Binder (Naberius) or Incanate (Strongheart Vest) in order to mitigate the Constitution loss associated with Hellfire, however.

I know races with a lot of LA are usually very bad, but in the case of a fledgling Warlock, you might want to think long and hard about choosing Pixie. It's bonuses to Warlock related abilities are massive (+8 Dex! +6 Cha! +6 Intelligence!), and the small size only helps you, and doesn't cut down on damage one bit. It also helps that you get two higher tier warlock abilities, namely flight and greater invisibility, right off the bat and saves you room to pick other invocations.

My opinion is that Warlock is underpowered if not optimized in most cases, but if you figure out and use the appropriate synergies it can become a fieriously powerful class that is tenacious enough to challenge most any monster, especially since it can take advantage of other classes depleting resources, by for example, sitting at the back and nonstop dispelling every single buffed enemy then vanishing as soon as it's confronted.

skywalker
2008-03-05, 12:19 AM
Could you please define broken?

I know a DM who bans the warlock because they can use hideous blow on every attack if they wish, which means they can add 3d6 of damage to every attack. This makes them more powerful in low-level hack&slash.

I will add my voice the chorus of:Warlocks are simply fun.

I also consider them slightly underpowered.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-05, 12:32 AM
Could you please define broken?

I know a DM who bans the warlock because they can use hideous blow on every attack if they wish, which means they can add 3d6 of damage to every attack. This makes them more powerful in low-level hack&slash.

I will add my voice the chorus of:Warlocks are simply fun.

I also consider them slightly underpowered.

I'd let him know that he's looking at the area of levels where fighters begin to get multiple attacks in a round, most classes are getting their 3rd level spells, and Druids are learning Wildshape. There is a large bump in power, but Hideous Blow is an awful Invocation because it requires a Warlock to be in melee range, gets only a single attack, and it's a regular attack roll, not a touch attack. I hardly think a Warlock would be getting a hit every time, and 3d6 is easily outshone by a fighter with a few charging feats and Power Attack.

I think what really makes lower level Warlocks broken, if anything, is the Summon Swarm Invocation. It's completely awesome for a spell available at first level that can be cast endlessly.

Attilargh
2008-03-05, 12:40 AM
Don't forget to warn your DM and fellow players in advance if you decide to pick up the class, mind. The unlimited uses and 24-hour long invocations might come as a bit of a shock and give a bad first impression. They did for me.

Guy_Whozevl
2008-03-05, 12:40 AM
I play a Warlock in one of my campaigns and it plays quite easily. It has great versitility, with UMD and interaction skills that can be boosted further by an invocation you can take. The damage is solid, but nothing to write home about, while the other class features have their merits. However, while it may seem overpowered quite early, with infinite flight and shattering sprees, the curve balances out at about level 5+ and becomes underpowered post level 10. For low level campaigns, it can be useful. What I most like about it is the ability to fill in for primary spellcasters with UMD; in my group, I am the backup cleric and primary mage (using a wand of lightning bolt we chanced upon).

skywalker
2008-03-05, 12:55 AM
I'd let him know that he's looking at the area of levels where fighters begin to get multiple attacks in a round, most classes are getting their 3rd level spells, and Druids are learning Wildshape. There is a large bump in power, but Hideous Blow is an awful Invocation because it requires a Warlock to be in melee range, gets only a single attack, and it's a regular attack roll, not a touch attack. I hardly think a Warlock would be getting a hit every time, and 3d6 is easily outshone by a fighter with a few charging feats and Power Attack.

I think what really makes lower level Warlocks broken, if anything, is the Summon Swarm Invocation. It's completely awesome for a spell available at first level that can be cast endlessly.

I don't want to de-rail this thread complaining about the lack of powergaming(or even effective character building) in my group, but the fighter took power attack just to get cleave. The fighter also doesn't own any splatbooks.

[/de-rail]

attilargh said it a lot better, it can be surprising to inexperienced DMs and to other players that you can float, walk on walls, or be invisible all day. Some people decide that's broken.

Just take a look at your game first, see if the (somewhat) unique offerings of the class will change your game seriously.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-05, 03:33 AM
I know a DM who bans the warlock because they can use hideous blow on every attack if they wish, which means they can add 3d6 of damage to every attack. This makes them more powerful in low-level hack&slash.
Except that it doesn't. They can do that starting at fifth level (at which point +10 damage is hardly overpowering), and hideous blow as written grants an opportunity attack to your opponent.


I also consider them slightly underpowered.
Yep. The whole "shtick" of the warlock is having infinite spells per day. However, in point of fact, you really don't need to use all that many spells in a day, like, ever. As early as third level, a wizard or cleric is unlikely to run out of spells all that often, and the chance only goes down.

That said, warlocks are cool and flavorful, and among the easier classes for beginners to learn.

Cuddly
2008-03-05, 03:39 AM
If your group doesn't powergame, then Warlocks will seem overpowered, simply because he can blast damage all day, from range, with only touch attacks. To a group with a wizard that's hot for fireball, it'll seem really great. If the group consists of powergamers, then the warlock won't seem overpowered.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-05, 03:59 AM
If your group doesn't powergame, then Warlocks will seem overpowered, simply because he can blast damage all day, from range, with only touch attacks. To a group with a wizard that's hot for fireball, it'll seem really great. If the group consists of powergamers, then the warlock won't seem overpowered.

I disagree; wizards will still seem good in comparison, as while they are more limited in number of spells, it honestly doesn't matter once you hit the mid levels as you are unlikely to run out.

Warlocks only really shine if you have to go through long, gruelling dungeons, but precious few dungeons/games are so.

streakster
2008-03-05, 07:30 AM
If your group doesn't powergame, then Warlocks will seem overpowered, simply because he can blast damage all day, from range, with only touch attacks. To a group with a wizard that's hot for fireball, it'll seem really great. If the group consists of powergamers, then the warlock won't seem overpowered.

I must here disagree - the Warlock, at higher levels, is actually a bit weak. He focuses on blasting, generally - quite a lot of class abilities are based of it - which is one the weaker things to be doing. Sure, they shine at levels 5 and below, but everything after that is downhill. A powergamer won't touch a Warlock, because they simply are very hard to cheese - use the Hellfire trick above, and you're still nowhere near full caster power.

An absolute blast to play though.

Duke of URL
2008-03-05, 08:30 AM
Why is everyone assuming the Warlock is focused on blasting? I think a more effective Warlock build is a battlefield controller, who is using invocations more to direct, confuse, and hassle the enemy -- damage output is a secondary concern.

AslanCross
2008-03-05, 08:47 AM
Why is everyone assuming the Warlock is focused on blasting? I think a more effective Warlock build is a battlefield controller, who is using invocations more to direct, confuse, and hassle the enemy -- damage output is a secondary concern.

Due to its limited list, it really doesn't have that many controlling invocations. One I really like, however, is chilling tentacles. Evard's Black Tentacles and then some.

Dorizzit
2008-03-05, 08:55 AM
I really like Warlocks. The few abilities they learn make up for it by being at will and very fun.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-05, 09:16 AM
Due to its limited list, it really doesn't have that many controlling invocations. One I really like, however, is chilling tentacles. Evard's Black Tentacles and then some.

Bestow Curse is nice: even better even if person succeeds on save, they take a penalty to hit. Nice upgrade. And a curse like 50% to act from now on is useful (not that all full caster didn't have that at same time or earlier).

Dispel magic at will can be useful (until level 17+ than you'll rarely make the check).

See Invisible/flight can be useful all day. Even if the flight is slow in feet (land speed so Dwarfs fly slow too). It is good manueverability.

As mentioned Summon Swarm is useful. Unlike the Wizard version, yoursis concentration so no danger to party. If swarm tries to move; that split second end concentration.
I'll never understand why you can't control a swarm with any magic spell: no summon swarm that is controllable...

Aquillion
2008-03-05, 09:17 AM
Well, Warlocks aren't as powerful as a full-caster, simply for the reasons that they can't either 1) Become an unstoppable juggernaut of death or 2) slaughter an entire encounter with one well-placed spell. However, they're still a lot better than fighters/monks.Debatable, for fighters at least. A decently-made fighter is going to be capable of outputting overwhelmingly more damage than a warlock ever can. Warlocks do have UMD, but overall their other class features are underwhelming. Granted, the fighter will probably only get that damage at close range... but at least he can beat up creatures quickly when the wizard holds them down. In a typical high-level party dynamic, the warlock is just going to be throwing around pings that don't contribute meaningful damage (unless they have a heavy ability-damage focused build, and even that isn't that great.)

Many invocations can be copied by magical items that are relatively cheap at higher levels, and if you look at the high-level ones there's pretty clear drop in power (lower-level invocations often grant spells from around that level at will or all day... higher-level ones are often more along the lines of flavor.)

Much like with the Sorcerer and spontaneous casting, I think what it comes down to is that they overestimated the value of the warlock's all-day abilities.

Duke of URL
2008-03-05, 09:20 AM
Due to its limited list, it really doesn't have that many controlling invocations. One I really like, however, is chilling tentacles. Evard's Black Tentacles and then some.

It is lacking in Dark invocations especially. Too bad WotC probably won't publish any more 3.5 material once 4e comes out... something like Complete Invoker or whatnot could really, really go a long way to improving the existing Warlock and creating other invocation-based classes that use similar mechanics, but various different flavors (e.g., Warlock becomes a "fiendish" invoker, Dragonfire Adept becomes a "draconic" invoker, could add "fey" and "celestial" variations, etc.). I've actually started a homebrew project on it a while back, but it's taken a backseat to immediate concerns.

It's just a shame that the Warlock and it's associated invocations aren't OGL, or I'd take on the project myself under the VP banner.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-05, 09:27 AM
It's just a shame that the Warlock and it's associated invocations aren't OGL, or I'd take on the project myself under the VP banner.

While they aren't OGL, you can't actually copyright game mechanics, only the texts that describe them. Certainly I can't see how there'd be any problems with your creating other classes which are mechanically the same as Warlocks but have a distinct flavour. As long as you aren't reproducing the actual text from Complete Arcane you should be fine.

Duke of URL
2008-03-05, 09:48 AM
While they aren't OGL, you can't actually copyright game mechanics, only the texts that describe them. Certainly I can't see how there'd be any problems with your creating other classes which are mechanically the same as Warlocks but have a distinct flavour. As long as you aren't reproducing the actual text from Complete Arcane you should be fine.

I'm not sure I have a good enough lawyer to test that theory. ::smallamused:

As I'm currently working on three products, it'll have to wait anyway.

Burley
2008-03-05, 10:02 AM
I'd like to start by thanking the OP for this opportunity, and apologizing to everybody else for having to see me, yet again, glorify my favorite class.

Warlocks are tight. Super tight. You want them to be good in a fight? You got it. You want them to have utility? You got it.
A ranged warlock is a god send. High Dex and a touch attack means hitting a lot. Now, a lot of people jump on me about how a fighter can shoot twice at X level. Well, a warlock can only shoot once, but he'll hit more frequently at that level and do more damage. You need magic weapons and junk to do the kind of damage a warlock can do naked.
Melee warlocks can be just as good. Take Weapon Finesse and Eldritch Glaive, Yo! Hit just as often as you did at ranged, but you get multiple attacks at...what 8th level? Something like that? It's still a touch attack, too! Combine that with Improved Feint, and you've got a DC of 10 on most everything. At 8th level with my last character, I had a +11 to hit in melee, and was doing 4d6 (maybe more...I was usually drunk :smalltongue:) and an extra attack. And, you're not even throwing yourself into proper melee, because it's a reach weapon! Egads, man! It's phenominal!

Now, all you folks saying there aren't enough Invocations. Complete Arcane, Complete Mage and Dragon Magic are full of great invocations. I think the Complete Mage has the least amount of them, and there are still more than a dozen. Considering a Warlock only gets 12 naturally by level 20...you've got a lot of options.
Also, the Warlock can be good for a lot of prestige classes. One of the more flavorful PrCs I've seen is for Warlocks and doesn't need you to multi-class AT ALL!
Take all that, add in Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, the Item Creation fiat, and the ability to use any magic item whenever you want...That's pretty great. Pretty darn great.
My last party consisted of my Warlock, a Druid with an Air Elemental, and a Sorcerer/Rogue/(A PrC from Races of the Dragon). I was the Blast, the Meat Shield, the Healer, and the Skill Monkey. I know it's because I, as a player, created my character more intelligently than the others, but still...I was the party.

A Warlock is often seen as being able to fill all roles, but not overshadow anybody. A smart player can focus their warlock to be the best in practically ANY role, and still be helpful in any other roll.

That being said, read my signature. I think that'd help clarify some things...And, I get 1cp everytime somebody reads it.

SilentNight
2008-03-05, 10:25 AM
I'm just going to add my voice to the chorus. I really have to second that warlocks are better at battle control than at blasting. Vitrolic blast in particular is very nice at destroying seige equipment. I was actually going to mention Burley Warlock's sig until I saw that he posted. One thing though, the warlock will never be a blaster.


Well, Warlocks aren't as powerful as a full-caster, simply for the reasons that they can't either 1) Become an unstoppable juggernaut of death or 2) slaughter an entire encounter with one well-placed spell. However, they're still a lot better than fighters/monks. The only cheese-factor they have is UMD, but that can be said of any rogue, bard, etc.

I worked this out in my head yesterday: Ftr 12/Rog 1= 390 damage per round with a bow. My group's power gamer must be rubbing off on me.

Burley
2008-03-05, 11:02 AM
First, glad that people take notice of me. The fact that somebody was going to mention me...well, it makes me feel good that I'm a recognized member of this community. I may have to run for the School Board. :tongue:


I worked this out in my head yesterday: Ftr 12/Rog 1= 390 damage per round with a bow. My group's power gamer must be rubbing off on me.


Can you show your work on that?

Saph
2008-03-05, 12:23 PM
The times I've seen warlocks played, they've generally been quite effective. If you pick the right invocations, they're good support.

The one in my current campaign's gone from level 8 to 9 in the four sessions he's played, and he's contributed quite a bit, mostly due to his at-will Dispel Magic ability. Being able to dispel at will is very nice, especially since the party's been going up against opponents with spell-like abilities.

One encounter had them dealing with a set of demons who'd spammed darkness spells over every square inch of the battlefield and were hiding in it. A spellcaster would have run out of dispels long before clearing the area, but the warlock was able to keep going.

- Saph

Burley
2008-03-05, 04:12 PM
The times I've seen warlocks played, they've generally been quite effective. If you pick the right invocations, they're good support.

The one in my current campaign's gone from level 8 to 9 in the four sessions he's played, and he's contributed quite a bit, mostly due to his at-will Dispel Magic ability. Being able to dispel at will is very nice, especially since the party's been going up against opponents with spell-like abilities.

One encounter had them dealing with a set of demons who'd spammed darkness spells over every square inch of the battlefield and were hiding in it. A spellcaster would have run out of dispels long before clearing the area, but the warlock was able to keep going.

- Saph

I love you and I love your players. I'd like to marry your game.

gnomas
2008-03-05, 07:13 PM
whoa! i finally get the site to work for me and we're already at two pages!

first, it's good to know there are so many people out there who love warlocks as much as i do. (and in some cases more)

second, thanks for all the opinions and advice. now that i've gotten some feedback, i'm curious about what would make some good invocation choices at early levels for a warlock/possiblely rogue.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-05, 08:04 PM
Remember, a Warlock can UMD pretty much at will. By 4th level, he should be able to take ten to UMD a wand with no problems. This opens up possibilities like Cure Light Wounds as a backup medic and Stinking Cloud for battlefield control. Tote around a few scrolls for debialiating but rare circumstances (Remove Curse, Neutralize Poision, Cure Disease...) and some other generally useful scrolls (Knock, although you might want to wand that if your party rogue stinks, Poision from the Druid spell list, Restoration, Haste...). Best of all, grab Craft Wand and Scribe Scroll, you can make all these yourself.

Heck, the only reason the Warlock isn't as broken as the Artificer is because he can't make metamagic toys like the artificer can.

gnomas
2008-03-05, 08:23 PM
so what i'm hearing is that UMD is a must-have. just read my complete arcane again, and realised that at early lvls i only have about 3 invocations (all least) as a full warlock. i really need to choose wisely...

i do not own dragon magic, but i think a friend of mine does. what exactly does eldritch glaive do?

Chronos
2008-03-05, 08:33 PM
As early as third level, a wizard or cleric is unlikely to run out of spells all that often, and the chance only goes down.The issue isn't a full spellcaster running out of spells; it's them running out of particular spells. No matter what level you are, you only have a few slots for your best spells, and if you're a prepared spellcaster, you might easily only have one or two copies of each of the spells you prepared. So there's always the chance that you'll end up saying "Man, I wish I hadn't used <spell name> last battle, because it would be a lot more useful here instead.".

Granted, at high levels, the spells a prepared spellcaster has left are still likely to be quite adequate to beat the challenge at hand, but it at least extends the level range where warlocks can shine.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-05, 08:56 PM
so what i'm hearing is that UMD is a must-have. just read my complete arcane again, and realised that at early lvls i only have about 3 invocations (all least) as a full warlock. i really need to choose wisely...

i do not own dragon magic, but i think a friend of mine does. what exactly does eldritch glaive do?

UMD is a central skill for the class, yes. And unfortunately, 2+int mod skill points means you're going to need to choose your skills wisely.

As far as good low-level invocations:

* Summon Swarm is tasty. And you can banish it just by not concentrating, so you don't have to worry about friendly fire.

* See the Unseen. It means never having to worry about seeing your target.

* Devil's Sight. As above, but if you are more worried about magical darkness than invisible opponents. Also good if combo'd with Darknes.

* Entropic Warding. Okay, the protection from ranged attacks is nice, but this is also effectively Pass Without Trace, which makes it very worth your while if you're more stealth-oriented.

* Baleful Utterance. Because there's a thousand and one uses for Shatter.

Invocations to avoid:

* Hedious Blow. Because if you're in melee, you've done something wrong.

* Frightful/Sickening Blast. I'd rather kill them than give them a -2 penalty.
A -2 isn't bad, don't get me wrong, but there's so many other choices that these just seem sub-par compared to your other options. And with your limited choice of incantations, these just slide down the list too far.

SilentNight
2008-03-05, 09:06 PM
Can you show your work on that?

It does require a spell-casting ally though. Take the whole fighter shebang: weapon focus/ weapon specialization and greater versions, point-blank shot, ranged weapon specialization, rapid shot, etc. Weild a +2, deadly precision(PHBII, +2d6 sneak attack, +2 bonus) composite longbow(+7 str bonus)=82 damage average. Add 12d6 sneak attack for 42. 42+82=114. Fire +1 spell storing arrows containing elemental darts at CL 11. Elemental darts is a second level spell from The Dagonlance campaign setting. It fires a dart that deals 1d6+1 per caster level( max +10 ) of acid, fire, cold or electricity (caster's choice ) and requires a ranged touch attack. At each odd numbered caster level above 3rd you get one extra dart to a maximum of five at 11th level. So at 11th level a caster is doing 5d6+50. Add that on to each arrow and that is an extra 270 points of damage.

So I was wrong, It is actually 384. Like I said, I did it in my head and didn't write it down

gnomas
2008-03-05, 09:08 PM
yes, the limited skill points do suck. as for the invocations, those do seem cool. I often overlooked those ones, but now i'm realising their potential:smallsmile:

edit: you did all that in your head silentnight? thats not half bad

The Glyphstone
2008-03-05, 09:09 PM
It does require a spell-casting ally though. Take the whole fighter shebang: weapon focus/ weapon specialization and greater versions, point-blank shot, ranged weapon specialization, rapid shot, etc. Weild a +2, deadly precision(PHBII, +2d6 sneak attack, +2 bonus) composite longbow(+7 str bonus)=82 damage average. Add 12d6 sneak attack for 42. 42+82=114. Fire +1 spell storing arrows containing elemental darts at CL 11. Elemental darts is a second level spell from The Dagonlance campaign setting. It fires a dart that deals 1d6+1 per caster level( max +10 ) of acid, fire, cold or electricity (caster's choice ) and requires a ranged touch attack. At each odd numbered caster level above 3rd you get one extra dart to a maximum of five at 11th level. So at 11th level a caster is doing 5d6+50. Add that on to each arrow and that is an extra 270 points of damage.

So I was wrong, It is actually 384. Like I said, I did it in my head and didn't write it down

Uh...where are you getting +12d6 sneak attack? Rogue 1 with the Deadly Precision weapon is only a total of +3d6...

gnomas
2008-03-05, 09:12 PM
Uh...where are you getting +12d6 sneak attack? Rogue 1 with the Deadly Precision weapon is only a total of +3d6...

that did seem a bit odd...

Weiser_Cain
2008-03-05, 10:19 PM
I have a personal gripe against the warlock as it's another pool of power that doesn't mesh with anything else. Call me particular but I like my magic to be either divine or arcane.

Xefas
2008-03-05, 10:28 PM
I have a personal gripe against the warlock as it's another pool of power that doesn't mesh with anything else. Call me particular but I like my magic to be either divine or arcane.

It's arcane. Warlocks have almost the same fluff as sorcerers. Spooooky sorcerers. There are even feats for sorcerers that represent them deriving their spells from a fiendish heritage, just like a warlock.

Heck, they're even subject to Arcane Spell Failure.

SilentNight
2008-03-05, 10:30 PM
Uh...where are you getting +12d6 sneak attack? Rogue 1 with the Deadly Precision weapon is only a total of +3d6...

3d6x4( BAB +12 with rapid shot)=12d6

Meat Shield
2008-03-05, 10:53 PM
It does require a spell-casting ally though. Take the whole fighter shebang: weapon focus/ weapon specialization and greater versions, point-blank shot, ranged weapon specialization, rapid shot, etc. Weild a +2, deadly precision(PHBII, +2d6 sneak attack, +2 bonus) composite longbow(+7 str bonus)=82 damage average. Add 12d6 sneak attack for 42. 42+82=114. Fire +1 spell storing arrows containing elemental darts at CL 11. Elemental darts is a second level spell from The Dagonlance campaign setting. It fires a dart that deals 1d6+1 per caster level( max +10 ) of acid, fire, cold or electricity (caster's choice ) and requires a ranged touch attack. At each odd numbered caster level above 3rd you get one extra dart to a maximum of five at 11th level. So at 11th level a caster is doing 5d6+50. Add that on to each arrow and that is an extra 270 points of damage.

So I was wrong, It is actually 384. Like I said, I did it in my head and didn't write it down

So you've got a 13th level character (with a friendly 11th level wiz) getting to a warlock that would for some reason allow you within 30 feet unaware (for the sneak attacks). Problems with this:

1) As has been stated, warlock are a ranged attacker. No way they should let you get that close. Normal eldritch blast range is 60 feet, ranged touch. First thing I always do is get the Eldritch Spear invocation, which makes the blast good from 250 feet.

2) 13th level warlock should have the entropic warding, fell flight, invisibility, and see invisibility/darkvision at will invocations already, and these are all 24-hour buffs. So you have to find him (flying, invisible, and entropic shield which also does pass without trace), get in range (again, flying AND invisible), have him not see you (see invisible and darkvision), and then hit him (entropic shield).

Hell, I'll take you on. Give you the death of a thousand cuts and hit you every round for 6d6 from 250 feet in the air, turning invisible after every attack. This isn't even counting what the hellfire warlock would do to you.

EDIT: Annnnnnnnnnnnnd, you are heavily invested in feats AND magic items. My warlock is neither. Hell, I think the warlock would take you naked and featless if that is all you are bringing to the table.

tyckspoon
2008-03-05, 11:24 PM
Fire +1 spell storing arrows containing elemental darts at CL 11. Elemental darts is a second level spell from The Dagonlance campaign setting. It fires a dart that deals 1d6+1 per caster level( max +10 ) of acid, fire, cold or electricity (caster's choice ) and requires a ranged touch attack.


I hate to shoot this down, but 'ranged touch' means it probably isn't a Targeted spell and can't be used with Spell Storing. A Targeted spell is something like Hold Person, with an actual 'Targets' line in its listing.. or Magic Missile. Lower damage, but it works.

SilentNight
2008-03-05, 11:47 PM
So you've got a 13th level character (with a friendly 11th level wiz) getting to a warlock that would for some reason allow you within 30 feet unaware (for the sneak attacks). Problems with this:

1) As has been stated, warlock are a ranged attacker. No way they should let you get that close. Normal eldritch blast range is 60 feet, ranged touch. First thing I always do is get the Eldritch Spear invocation, which makes the blast good from 250 feet.

2) 13th level warlock should have the entropic warding, fell flight, invisibility, and see invisibility/darkvision at will invocations already, and these are all 24-hour buffs. So you have to find him (flying, invisible, and entropic shield which also does pass without trace), get in range (again, flying AND invisible), have him not see you (see invisible and darkvision), and then hit him (entropic shield).

Hell, I'll take you on. Give you the death of a thousand cuts and hit you every round for 6d6 from 250 feet in the air, turning invisible after every attack. This isn't even counting what the hellfire warlock would do to you.

EDIT: Annnnnnnnnnnnnd, you are heavily invested in feats AND magic items. My warlock is neither. Hell, I think the warlock would take you naked and featless if that is all you are bringing to the table.

That wasn't meant to beat the warlock. It was a rebuttal to the statement that fighters can't be power-gamed.


I hate to shoot this down, but 'ranged touch' means it probably isn't a Targeted spell and can't be used with Spell Storing. A Targeted spell is something like Hold Person, with an actual 'Targets' line in its listing.. or Magic Missile. Lower damage, but it works.
Dang. Sorry for the mix-up. It was just a thought.

graymachine
2008-03-06, 12:20 AM
Maybe a small part of warlock goodness, since I enjoy them greatly, but I had a ruling when I played one in a game that Warlocks can create both Arcane and Divine magic items, due to the wording on their item creation abilities. This lead to a Frankensteinian warlock that spent a good deal of time experimenting and fun was had by all. While not the best magic item creation class out there, your DM is sure to have some pity and give you excellent flavor.

Hzurr
2008-03-06, 12:33 AM
*sigh* THERE ARE SO MANY GOOD INVOCATIONS. Every time I've leveled up my warlock, I've agonized over what to take.

On a side note, I'm having a blast playing him. (No pun intended on the word "blast")

gnomas
2008-03-07, 06:18 PM
* Baleful Utterance. Because there's a thousand and one uses for Shatter.


what would be some examples? the only realy useful thing i can think of is blowing up every item of a persons armor (and blowing up stuff for fun. but that isnt always productive.)

Kurald Galain
2008-03-07, 06:31 PM
what would be some examples? the only realy useful thing i can think of is blowing up every item of a persons armor (and blowing up stuff for fun. but that isnt always productive.)

Cutting ropes, for instance. Making noise at a distance. Cutting saddle straps out from riding people. Breaking down bridges. And cracking eggs, even.

Meat Shield
2008-03-07, 06:34 PM
what would be some examples? the only realy useful thing i can think of is blowing up every item of a persons armor (and blowing up stuff for fun. but that isnt always productive.)

Useful things to make 'go boom':

1) Cleric's holy symbol - sorry about that righteous might you were about to cast.

2) Wizard's spell component pouch - sorry about that 'kill everything in the room' spell you were about to cast

3) Fighter's two-handed vorpal sword of awesomeness

4) The rogue's tankard of ale as he is drinking it

5) The king's throne as he is sitting on it and not listening to you with the proper repsect

6) The maiden's chastity belt

7) and on and on......

gnomas
2008-03-07, 07:33 PM
lol. those are awesome. i must remember these in my next game!

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-07, 07:36 PM
what would be some examples? the only realy useful thing i can think of is blowing up every item of a persons armor (and blowing up stuff for fun. but that isnt always productive.)

In addition to the above perfectly valid suggestions:

* The chains you have been put in down in the prison cell

* The prison gate

* any door in any dungeon that you don't want to spend the time on to pick

* The boulder the hill giant is about to throw at you

* The cease and desist order the lawyer is waving in your face

* The sherrif's badge that is being shoved in your face as a reason to 'do whatever he wants to and get away with it' when explaining his persecution of your chosen vocation

* The belt holding up the Mayor's pants, during his great speech in front of everyone, after he publicly denounced you or something you believe in

* The wench's skirt

* the funny string that leads up into the darkness that seems to be a tripwire trigger for a trap, from a safe distance of course

* the weak bridge the balor is standing on (make sure you're out of reach of his flame lash first)

* The rickedy mostly rope bridge which spans between a deep chasm over which your party has already run across while running away from something big and scary, who just so happens to be stepping onto said bridge

* The beautifully and expensively decorated stained glass window of the church that just denounced you as a heretic for being a warlock

* The belt holding up the leather pants of the barbarian currently charging at you with his greataxe

* The dwarf's mug containing the ale he was about to drink after calling you irresponsible just because you happened to cause a minor riot over one of the aforementioned social faux pas reguarding important officials and the shattering of variously useful and/or important objects.

And best of all... unlimited number of times per day.

Collin152
2008-03-07, 07:59 PM
Could you shatter the ceiling above sombody's head?

Zincorium
2008-03-07, 08:06 PM
Could you shatter the ceiling above sombody's head?

Not unless it was a particularly small ceiling, and that would only be useful fighting a vampire or something similiar on the top floor of a building, but you can shatter the chain of a conveniently placed chandelier to send it crashing down like a particularly awesome B-movie.

Chronos
2008-03-07, 10:27 PM
And because it's at-will, it's really easy to justify using it for frivolous things like tankards of ale.

Save my nifty superpowers just for when I really need them? Why?

Kurald Galain
2008-03-08, 03:57 AM
1) Cleric's holy symbol - sorry about that righteous might you were about to cast.
Yes, you can do that, but he gets a saving throw.



3) Fighter's two-handed vorpal sword of awesomeness
And you can't actually do that, because Shatter doesn't work on magical items.



5) The king's throne as he is sitting on it and not listening to you with the proper repsect
And you can't do that either because it's above the weight limit.



6) The maiden's chastity belt
And while that one would work, it would also likely stun and deafen her for awhile.

gnomas
2008-03-08, 11:56 AM
And while that one would work, it would also likely stun and deafen her for awhile.
and that's a problem because...?
i mean, yes, that wouldn't be a good idea would it...

Meat Shield
2008-03-08, 12:46 PM
and that's a problem because...?

Congratulations, you have now taken your first step on the path to playing a warlock the right way.

gnomas
2008-03-09, 08:07 PM
aha! found the thread again.

sorry to bother everyone again, but i'm in the process of building a warlock that i'm hoping to play tomorrow. my question is about feats. are there any that low level warlocks really bennefit from? any to stay away from? thanks in advance.

LibraryOgre
2008-03-09, 08:28 PM
aha! found the thread again.

sorry to bother everyone again, but i'm in the process of building a warlock that i'm hoping to play tomorrow. my question is about feats. are there any that low level warlocks really bennefit from? any to stay away from? thanks in advance.

A great PrC for human warlocks to shoot for (which requires certain feats) is Chameleon. Even at a 2-level dip, you get some great flexibility (a 2-level dip in chameleon is about equivalent to 3 levels in any spellcasting class, or putting a couple levels into a fighter class), and it gives you the great "Bonus Feat"... which you can reassign every day. Want to be an item crafter? Get an item feat that day. Want a different invocation? Change your "Bonus Invocation" every morning. Want to be a more powerful spellcaster? Practiced Spellcaster to add a few levels to your Chameleon spellcasting.

Great dip. Able Learner makes it easy. Have at least a 10 Int and be a human, and you're cool.

gnomas
2008-03-09, 08:37 PM
thats sounds great, but I dont have the book that's in. plus, i doubt this character will go high enough level to worry about prestige classes.

Meat Shield
2008-03-09, 09:34 PM
aha! found the thread again.

sorry to bother everyone again, but i'm in the process of building a warlock that i'm hoping to play tomorrow. my question is about feats. are there any that low level warlocks really bennefit from? any to stay away from? thanks in advance.

It really depends on what you want to do. Melee warlocks tend to go with the eldritch glaive (dragon magic?) for their striking power - feats that increase survivablility in melee work here, and ability focus (eldritch blast) is almost always good as it boosts the DCs of your invocations by 2. Unless of course you don't use invocs with saves, like I generally pick. I like warlocks to stay way back from melee however, and pick archery/ranged feats at lower leels, then item creation or extra invocations at upper levels

Go to the character optimization boards at wizards for several warlock threads, they will set you straight and give you better info than I can.

gnomas
2008-03-09, 09:44 PM
thanks for the advice, i'll probably look at the wizard boards like you suggest.

EDIT: so, um, could someone direct me to aformentioned threads? I never really visit the wizard boards and im having trouble finding it

mabriss lethe
2008-03-09, 10:17 PM
For a low level warlock you don't expect to reach high levels....

There are several feats in Complete Arcane that give you access to a collection of 1/day spell like abilities. I don't recommend them for higher level games, but they're great at filling in a warlock's gaps at low level. Each of the feats gives you access to two 0-level and one 1st-level spell.

The Soul binding feat in Tome of Magic can also be used to flesh out a warlock's versatility at lower levels. and some subsequent feats can keep it useful into the mid levels.

One of my favorite human warlocks started out with soulbinding and necropolis born as his 1st level feats. He rocked like so few other characters have.

Taking able learner at 1st level and going to chameleon is an amazing choice, and you qualify after....5th or 6th level I think... a two or three level dip is worth it because it grants you a host of spellcasting options you lacked before, along with the potential to have (one at a time) access to every single least, lesser, and greater invocation.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-10, 12:50 AM
How low level? First level? Take Summon swarm. It doesn't sound all that impressive, until you realize that Summon Swarm is

Pretty big. Swarms are 10' by 10', but you can form them into any Tetris block shape you want.
They're one of the few area attacks Warlocks get.
They autohit for 1d6 damage, with no need for an attack roll and no chance for your foes to dodge out of the way if you summon the swarm where they are standing.
They force two save or sucks on any enemy passing through them. They do this every single round. (Spider swarms are fun for this. 1d3/1d3 Str poison and nausea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated) await!)
Unlike Druids with the same spell, there's no risk of getting attacked by your own swarm, since the moment you stop concentrating the swarm ends.
You can recast this every round, and move it to where-ever your enemies moved to. It's range is 25 + (5 * 1/2 Warlock level) feet.
They're more or less invulnerable to damage. They take half or no weapon damage. Even if your enemies drop napalm or fireballs on them, the Warlock can summon a new swarm next round.
A great way to hide bodies. How are you supposed to tell how a creature died with only a skeleton with a ton of rat teeth marks all over? Combine with Baleful Utterance to remove even that!



It really depends on what you want to do. Melee warlocks tend to go with the eldritch glaive (dragon magic?) for their striking power - feats that increase survivablility in melee work here, and ability focus (eldritch blast) is almost always good as it boosts the DCs of your invocations by 2. Unless of course you don't use invocs with saves, like I generally pick. I like warlocks to stay way back from melee however, and pick archery/ranged feats at lower leels, then item creation or extra invocations at upper levels

Go to the character optimization boards at wizards for several warlock threads, they will set you straight and give you better info than I can.

I wouldn't take Eldritch Glaive right off at first level. It doesn't benefit you to have it until you have a BAB +6 or higher and can therefore make multiple attack with it. It's better to take it at 4th right before you start gaining lesser invocations, and only if you know you'll be taking the character to 8th level or more when it starts to be useful.

Oh, and here's a few Warlock information threads. :)

Warlock Information Compilation (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=751117)
Warlock Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=393586)
Warlock Equipment Locker (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=782272)

Aquillion
2008-03-10, 02:06 AM
It would be nice if Summon Swarm scaled. Honestly, my big objection the warlock (not balance-wise, but fluff-wise) is that you're basically stuck with blasting for your main thing. It would be nice if they had a variety of different things you could use for your 'central' power, so you could have a 'summon' warlock who brings out swarms and such with certain restrictions, a 'defensive' warlock (actually a controller who specializes in battlefield alterations by putting up barriers and taking them down), a combat warlock who gets maybe better HD, BAB, perhaps even a few fighter bonus feats + fewer invocations, and so on.

The basic underlying warlock mechanic could be adapted for all sorts of things, so I'm not sure why they tied it so tightly to blasting with a tiny pool of dice...

The_Snark
2008-03-10, 02:12 AM
On Summon Swarm- Tome of Magic adds the Murder of Crows to the list of things that Summon Swarm can produce. It's a nice addition, because anybody damaged by the crows has to make a DC 14 Reflex save or be blinded until the damage is healed. (Plus the usual; damage, save vs. nausea...)

Area save-or-suck at level 1, at will? Nice.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-10, 02:48 AM
On Summon Swarm- Tome of Magic adds the Murder of Crows to the list of things that Summon Swarm can produce. It's a nice addition, because anybody damaged by the crows has to make a DC 14 Reflex save or be blinded until the damage is healed. (Plus the usual; damage, save vs. nausea...)

Area save-or-suck at level 1, at will? Nice.

I didn't know that, actually! Thanks for the tip! :smallsmile:


It would be nice if Summon Swarm scaled. Honestly, my big objection the warlock (not balance-wise, but fluff-wise) is that you're basically stuck with blasting for your main thing. It would be nice if they had a variety of different things you could use for your 'central' power, so you could have a 'summon' warlock who brings out swarms and such with certain restrictions, a 'defensive' warlock (actually a controller who specializes in battlefield alterations by putting up barriers and taking them down), a combat warlock who gets maybe better HD, BAB, perhaps even a few fighter bonus feats + fewer invocations, and so on.

The basic underlying warlock mechanic could be adapted for all sorts of things, so I'm not sure why they tied it so tightly to blasting with a tiny pool of dice...

I'm for that too. Warlocks have a more logical power balance to them, even if that does mean they come up short compared to full casters. There's so many different and useful classes you could homebrew and base on warlock progression. I'd like it if there were Feats you could take like Rogues have where they give up Sneak attack dice for other effects.

Hopefully 4e will take cues from this. :smallsmile:

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-10, 02:51 AM
Murder of crows. That is so appropriate for a Warlock on many different levels.

Duke of URL
2008-03-10, 06:46 AM
I wouldn't take Eldritch Glaive right off at first level. It doesn't benefit you to have it until you have a BAB +6 or higher and can therefore make multiple attack with it. It's better to take it at 4th right before you start gaining lesser invocations, and only if you know you'll be taking the character to 8th level or more when it starts to be useful.

I'd wait until at least 6th, actually. You can trade out your least useful Least invocation for Glaive at 6th level, or take the Extra Invocation feat to get it at character level 6 or 9. That way, you gain another useful invocation for at least levels 4 and 5.

Person_Man
2008-03-10, 09:09 AM
Warlocks sucked when created. But thanks to a devoted following, WotC supported them in a number of suppliments, and now they're quite useful/powerful when built correctly.

For example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352), they can get Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action at very low levels.

They have some uber PrC, such as the Eldritch Disciple, Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) and Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3).

Their Invocation list has been greatly expanded, allowing a Warlock to fill many different roles effectively (Eldritch Glaive, Ignore the Pyre, Relentless Dispelling, Spider-shape, Sudden Swarm, Devil's Whispers, etc).

sonofzeal
2008-03-10, 10:20 AM
Warlocks sucked when created. But thanks to a devoted following, WotC supported them in a number of suppliments, and now they're quite useful/powerful when built correctly.
I don't know, they've certainly been treated well in later releases, but I think the base Warlock was decent, especially at low levels (1-5 especially). At higher they lose out to proper casters obviously, but so does pretty much everything.



As to feats, I've always liked putting the Combat Focus feat chain from PHB2 on them. The flavour works, and it's dead-easy for them to get that first hit. Plus, the abilities granted synergize well and fit the general flavour (boosted will, blindsight, fast healing). What's not to love?

Burley
2008-03-10, 12:09 PM
I've seen a lot of people saying not to take Eldritch Glaive until later levels. I agree that it isn't as good as your normal blast until you have extra attacks from BAB.
Here's the reason I'd suggest taking at your...2nd invocation (First invocation should be something like [Shatter] or Summon Swarm): Attacks of Opportunity. Being a Warlock, you aren't going to be carrying many weapons, if any. You won't have any armed if you're planning on using your ranged blast, since you need your hands free to cast (unless you take Somatic Weaponry which lets you cast with your hands full). BUT, Eldritch Glaive lets you have attacks of opportunity with it during the round you used it.

Plus, it's an awesome visual. I always played it as my glaive was always activated and I used it as a Crackling Energy Walking Stick, which grew a blade at the end when used to attack. Then, when I fired my blast, I hurled the Glaive like a javelin. I was like a Fey-born Zeus, with his lightning bolts!

Oh, and for feats: Check out the Complete Mage. There are a bunch of Fey/Fiendish Heritage Feats that stack SOOO well with the Warlock. They give you extra SLAs and DR/cold iron that stacks with that from your class (the feat says that, so, nobody contest me :smallwink:), and the feats stack with each other, increasing the power of the feats with each new feat you take from that tree. Check 'em out...they're killer and flavory.

gnomas
2008-03-10, 05:29 PM
thanks SO much everyone for the advice, especially for the links!

I had to start the char today, and I went with some archery feats, which are working well.

however, you have all given me great ideas for my next warlock!

EDIT: the hellfire warlock looks awesome, but i'm a bit worried about the CON damage...what are some good ways to deal with that?

Person_Man
2008-03-10, 05:47 PM
I don't know, they've certainly been treated well in later releases, but I think the base Warlock was decent, especially at low levels (1-5 especially). At higher they lose out to proper casters obviously, but so does pretty much everything.

The primary problem with the "core only" Warlock is that it's damage scales very poorly, and that its Invocations, while nifty, are severely limited in number and generally just duplicate spell effects. There is nothing that you can do special or better then any other class. Instead, you can do a modest job of one or two tasks all day - and that's really not helpful unless you're playing in the world's largest dungeon or a similar campaign.

But this was fixed by the supplements, so its a moot issue unless your DM limits what books you can use.

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-10, 05:51 PM
EDIT: the hellfire warlock looks awesome, but i'm a bit worried about the CON damage...what are some good ways to deal with that?

There are essentially two ways, each of which requires a level at least to work.

The first is to take a level of Binder, and bind a vestige called 'Naberius.' It regenerates 1 point of Constitution every single round.

The second is to take a level of Incarnate, and create a Soulmeld called 'Strongheart Vest.' This soulmeld works by reducing 1 point of incoming ability damage each time you take ability damage, much like DR 1/- reduces a point of damage every time you take physical damage.

I prefer to go the Incarnate route, because I can then take a second Incarnate level and bind a Crystal Crown to my crown chakra. This makes all my Warlocks melee attacks add the force descriptor, meaning it punches right through ethreal and incorporeal defenses. I do this to make such my Eldritch Glaive stays lethal against pretty much everything.

Additionally, if you're a Glaive-lock you have to keep in mind that Naberius is only going to cover you for the first point of Constitution damage in a round. If you use Hellfire damage or the Shield twice in the same round, you'll be going through your Constitution slowly but surely. If you're not a Glaive-lock, then either solution is just as good. Binder has some fun stuff, too.

Another common Hellfire Warlock tactic is to make Hellfire Warlock advance beyond level 3 using either the Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) or Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy) PrC's. These two PrC's have an unusual advancement structure where they advance the previous classes class features, not just their spell/Invocation casting, so you could theortically have up to +18d6 points of Hellfire damage.

AslanCross
2008-03-10, 06:47 PM
thanks SO much everyone for the advice, especially for the links!

I had to start the char today, and I went with some archery feats, which are working well.

however, you have all given me great ideas for my next warlock!

EDIT: the hellfire warlock looks awesome, but i'm a bit worried about the CON damage...what are some good ways to deal with that?

Use Magic Device + Wand of Lesser Restoration.

gnomas
2008-03-11, 05:31 PM
so I can take a level or two in those classes which I unfortuantely don't have the books for...or I can use magic items to restore the lost CON.

my DM instincts are kicking in! I have an urge to homebrew new methods and items!

Aquillion
2008-03-11, 09:51 PM
Use Magic Device + Wand of Lesser Restoration.This has its advantages (you can emulate the Paladin version of the spell at level 1 with CL 2 -- the minimum CL to cast the Paladin version thanks to their odd progression -- and make it yourself very, very cheaply), but it also has drawbacks. A wand of lesser restoration takes 3 rounds to activate, so you can't generally use it in combat; you'll have to bear the damage until then.

Note that when using the Paladin version of the spell, or any other partial-caster spell from a class with similar progression, you must have a CL of at least 2. Most people 'cheat' and make an item at CL 1 even using partial-caster spells, but you're not actually allowed to do that -- Paladins can never cast any spells with CL 1 because of the way their progression works, and the magic item creation rules don't let you reduce your caster level below the CL at which you could normally cast the spell. This might sound like a minor quibble, but its effect is significant, since it doubles the cost of the item.

Also note that since Hellfire Infusion doesn't do maximize (only Empower), you'll sometimes only get one point back, forcing you to use it multiple times if you've been burning con. The costs are not major for a high-level character, but they can add up when it's your only method of attacking.


The second is to take a level of Incarnate, and create a Soulmeld called 'Strongheart Vest.' This soulmeld works by reducing 1 point of incoming ability damage each time you take ability damage, much like DR 1/- reduces a point of damage every time you take physical damage.While technically this works per RAW, you might want to clear it with your DM first, since it directly goes against the fluff (which strongly implies that you have to actually 'pay' the damage.) Yes, this isn't technically the same as immunity (which is specifically barred), but your DM might not see it the same way.

Stycotl
2008-03-12, 12:06 AM
going back to the one-trick pony idea of a warlock, i generally don't single-class anyway, so i'm not the best person to give advice if that is the way you're looking to go. i generally pick one class that will be my primary, or will be the primary ladder to the primary prc that i want, and stick with it for the most part, taking only a few other classes as i see them synergizing well. sometimes that synergy is more of a roleplay aspect than a maximize-the-character synergy.

but all of it has to fit the vision of the character. i recently created two warlocks, both sprites, both siblings. one of them is a glaivelock, agressive, mean, temperamental. the other is humrous, kind, intelligent. the glaivelock's invocations, feats, etc went towards intimidation and combat. he's the one that took chilling tentacles and frightful blast. the other one took the diplomacy-ehhancing one (can't remember its name), and a few others. the glaivelock also took two levels of a sublime class to get shadow hand and tiger claw, and is now ready to enter a good prc. the other one is (for one of the first times in memory for me) probably going to go straight warlock. if not, i am probably going to have to design a prc specifically for her. maybe something archmage-ish.

we'll see. but that is how i choose the precious feats and invocations (spells, psionic powers, etc for everyone else): based off of the character concept i have of them from the beginning.

that way, even if i end up with a one-trick pony (which hasn't happened yet) it doesn't really bother me, cuz it fits the story, fits the characters, and fits what he/she would do in the situation.