Thog cannot be PURE evil *proof/spoiler*

[Hippoboy]

i was going through the archives when i got to comic 142 and noticed thog had a teddy!

come on people any one who has a teddy cannot really be evil :smallwink:

don't kill me

[FujinAkari]

Thog prolly stole the teddy bear and killed its owner :P

[Hippoboy]

i would prefer the term 'liberate' :smallbiggrin:

[ssjKammak]

That and anyone who is just in for a group hug for the sake of it, despite even if hes trying to hug his enemies :smalltongue:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html

[monty]

I thought Thog was Chaotic Stupid.

[Quorothorn]

Yes, well, the question must be asked as to whether any being can be pure evil (or pure good). Of course, this is a DnD-style 'verse, so...

[The Extinguisher]

Thog can't be evil, because I like him. Right? RIGHT? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

[Phase]

I don't think that there is any question that Thog isn't pure evil. Thog sems to be more "Chaotic Impressionable"

[Hippoboy]

I don't think that there is any question that Thog isn't pure evil. Thog sems to be more "Chaotic Impressionable"

meh personally i think thog as chaotic neutral, he acts in accordance with his party e.g with Elan; thog is good, and with Nale; thog is evil

[FujinAkari]

meh personally i think thog as chaotic neutral, he acts in accordance with his party e.g with Elan; thog is good, and with Nale; thog is evil

What good acts did Thog ever commit when he was with Elan? I'll give you that he wasn't expressedly evil, but I remember him stealing from shopkeeps and stowing away on airships, not very good acts :P

[Frictional]

He was assisting a good character (Elan) in the construction of a wooden alpaca that would in turn be able to save another good character (Haley) from an evil character (Nale).
Granted, I'll admit that the express purpose of the wooden alpaca was, again, in stowing away aboard an airship (again), but in Roy's case, being good through chaotic means... means nothing. Chaos/Law and Good/Evil are completely unrelated. Though none of us are arguing that Thog is anything but Chaotic. ;)

[FujinAkari]

He was assisting a good character (Elan) in the construction of a wooden alpaca that would in turn be able to save another good character (Haley) from an evil character (Nale).

I'm sorry, but that argument is hypocritical. If Thog's rampant evil behavior is excusable because he doesn't know what he's doing, then you can't use "Well he was helping a good character!" as reasoning for him being good :)

It has to cut both ways.

[Querzis]

He was assisting a good character (Elan) in the construction of a wooden alpaca that would in turn be able to save another good character (Haley) from an evil character (Nale).

...Thog was trying to save Nale not Haley, I clearly remember Thog beating Haley with a door. And I really doubt Thog understood what the wooden alpaca was for...hell I really doubt Elan totally understood what he was gonna use it for.

Guys this is ridiculous. Nale is freaking afraid of Thog and his 'boredom driven rampage'. I'm not saying Thog is supposed to be impossible to redeem but I never saw Thog do any good act and hes doing evil thing naturally just because he think its fun and without anyone telling him to do it! Stupidity is not and has never been an excuse. Hell, last time I checked, most of the really dumb guys were good.

As Axel said this, as well as the people arguing about Belkar alignement, is just another example of a Draco in leather pants.

But no, hes not pure evil. I doubt anything is anyway.

[tenguro]

I thought Thog was Chaotic Stupid.

No that's G.I.R from invader zim. I say Thog is CE but on the verge of CN.

[SlightlyEvil]

I'm sorry, but that argument is hypocritical. If Thog's rampant evil behavior is excusable because he doesn't know what he's doing, then you can't use "Well he was helping a good character!" as reasoning for him being good :)

It has to cut both ways.

No one is claiming Thog is good. At best, he's CN. I personally like the Chaotic Impressionable idea. Isn't there a minimum INT you need to have alignment in the first place? Thog barely seems intelligent enough to make these choices on his own; can he really be judged evil? Non-sapient animals are by definition neutral, so I wonder if a similar mechanic is in play here.

[David Argall]

Thog is clearly evil. He merely seems controllably evil. It would seem a gallon or two of ice cream a day and somebody with a few ranks in diplomacy could ensure he lives a harmless life.
Contrast with Nale who will kill hundreds of innocents in order to avenge a slight, and has a long list of people he deems to have slighted him. To say nothing of Xykon, who doesn't need to be slighted to kill hundreds.
Sod He kills friends for having too long a name
These are the guys you don't see any easy way to control. For your own safety, you have got to kill them, or run as far and fast as you can. By that standard, Thog is not a threat.
But killing hundreds of innocents over dozens of incidents is hardly the mark of a nice guy.

[Porthos]

*Checks calendar*

Hmmm. It has been some time since the last "Thog is Chaotic Neutral misunderstood" debate, hasn't it?

Oh well, I guess we were well overdue. :smalltongue:
=======================================

I'm not even going to bother with a detailed argument this time. I've done it before, and I just can't be bothered right now.

So here is The Super Condensed Argument For Why Thog Is Chaotic Evil:

Thog has an INT that is 3 or above, therefore he has an alignment. (His Chaotic nature is not in dispute)
Thog knows right from wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) (Yet he still commits hundreds of evil acts [well over 400 murders at last count])
We've seen people who have childlike Intelligence arrive in the LG afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (So the fact that he is easily impressionable and childlike has been nullified)

In the immortal words of Tony Kornheiser: That's it! That's the list! :smallbiggrin:

Thog may have the potential to be CN, but he sure hasn't acted on it yet for any real length of time. Sad? Perhaps. But a brief span of acting CNish does not negate a lifetime of wallowing in CE behavior.

[Hippoboy]

*Checks calendar*

Hmmm. It has been some time since the last "Thog is Chaotic Neutral misunderstood" debate, hasn't it?

Oh well, I guess we were well overdue. :smalltongue:
=======================================

I'm not even going to bother with a detailed argument this time. I've done it before, and I just can't be bothered right now.

So here is The Super Condensed Argument For Why Thog Is Chaotic Evil:

Thog has an INT that is 3 or above, therefore he has an alignment. (His Chaotic nature is not in dispute)
Thog knows right from wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) (Yet he still commits hundreds of evil acts [well over 400 murders at last count])
We've seen people who have childlike Intelligence arrive in the LG afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (So the fact that he is easily impressionable and childlike has been nullified)

In the immortal words of Tony Kornheiser: That's it! That's the list! :smallbiggrin:

Thog may have the potential to be CN, but he sure hasn't acted on it yet for any real length of time. Sad? Perhaps. But a brief span of acting CNish does not negate a lifetime of wallowing in CE behavior.

Hey when Thog said he was quilty he simply said he had done the crime not that the crime was bad.

it's like if i was in a ultra manner based country and sneezed then hold in jail and some judge asks "are you guilty of SNEEZING!" I (asssuming i had no will to live) would say "yes I did" that doesn't mean i think sneezing is wrong

[Morty]

Hey when Thog said he was quilty he simply said he had done the crime not that the crime was bad.

it's like if i was in a ultra manner based country and sneezed then hold in jail and some judge asks "are you guilty of SNEEZING!" I (asssuming i had no will to live) would say "yes I did" that doesn't mean i think sneezing is wrong

Well, the crime in question here is killing a lot of innocent people and city guards. Yet Thog doesn't show any remorse.
Face it people, he's evil.

[Roderick_BR]

Thog likes puppies :smallbiggrin: Someone that likes puppies can't be pure evil.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Thog likes puppies :smallbiggrin: Someone that likes puppies can't be pure evil.Thog's puppy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)

[Phase]

Wait, should we even be having this discussion? We know that the rules are only a background, and if something is funny enough, Rich disregards the rules if he has to. Thog is that funny, if it's funnier for him to go with Elan and stuff an alpaca full of mashed potatoes, then that's what he'll do, reardless of alignment.

[Setra]

I would say that Thog's childlike behavior makes him a bit MORE evil.

In any case, no matter how impressionable you are, showing no remorse at ending the lives of hundreds of people, treating humans as animals, and going on rampages that even the ones you gain impressions of fear..

It's impossible to deny he is evil.

However BECAUSE he is impressionable, which I will admit, if perhaps he spent a prolonged period of time with people of Good nature, then he could shift up the alignment as well.

However this could require years.

[Ceaon]

Just because you like Thog as a character, does not mean he can't be chaotic evil.
Thog is like Belkar, only far less intelligent. He has an Int score of 3+ and kills people. Randomly. Because Nale tells him to. For fun. Out of boredom.
Funny, yet evil.
Chaotic evil.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is interpreting the alignment rules incorrectly, as far as I can see it.

[Saph]

Unfortunately, "I like this character" and "This character isn't evil" are two very different things. :P

A character can be funny and entertaining and still be a murderous psycho. (Which Thog is.)

- Saph

[Laurentio]

The incapacity of recognizing an evil act as plain evil, is no excuse. Morality don't start from a neutral point: a fully amoral person will kill on sheer boredom or distraction (Xykon could be amoral, if not enjoying the killing).
So, let's say that Thog is amoral, and too stupid to recognize it. He would kill for very low reason, like boredom or to skip a turn in a row (he would do, probably). This IS evil. The lack of good is no neutral, is evil. A neutral person won't kill for he slighter offence, and randomly without, because he would have that minimal consideration for others.

Note that Nale fears Thog, and will take constant count-misures against Thog's violence (ice-cream, sugar and rocket-rollers to say). So there is no "Thog is neutral and Nale is the evil behind his back". Thog would kill Nale on a good provocation.

Laurentio

[Remirach]

No that's G.I.R from invader zim. I say Thog is CE but on the verge of CN.

I have the Invader Zim DVDs and the creator was rather surprised so many fans took a shining to GIR and pointed out the robot is serious when he says things like "I like destroying." If he worked right, he'd be more evil than Zim.

I don't have a problem classifying Thog as evil in game terms. More focused on the Chaotic aspect of his personality than the Evil one, but if you know enough to recognize evil and side with it anyway, I think it's fair you wind up with "Evil" in your alignment.

[Droodle]

I don't think that there is any question that Thog isn't pure evil.Demons and Devils are pure evil. Thog is just evil. There's a difference.

[NerfTW]

Evil characters don't have to kick puppies and rob old ladies all day long to stay evil. Thog had to do good things to save Nale. It doesn't make him neutral, just loyal to Nale. Who happens to be evil.


Further, I don't hear anyone arguing that Elan is now Chaotic Neutral because he stole from a store on three seperate occasions, or that the whole order is evil because they're associating with Belkar.

[Frictional]

Thog would kill Nale on a good provocation.

Laurentio

Doubtful. I was wrong when I said earlier that Thog was going to help save Haley, because he was in fact, making sure Nale hadn't been eaten by an evil witch in a forest.
Thog doesn't kill people he likes. Case in point, he didn't kill Elan when given the opportunity, but instead attacked Haley, someone he didn't know.
Course, if someone convinced Thog that Nale had been possessed by some sort of spirit and the only way to heal him was to beat him mercilessly with a door or large pointy weapon...


I'm sorry, but that argument is hypocritical. If Thog's rampant evil behavior is excusable because he doesn't know what he's doing, then you can't use "Well he was helping a good character!" as reasoning for him being good :)

It has to cut both ways.

I don't recall saying it was inexcusable cause he isn't smart enough to know. I was arguing that his actions seem to be based on who is directing him.

[AmberVael]

Further, I don't hear anyone arguing that Elan is now Chaotic Neutral because he stole from a store on three seperate occasions, or that the whole order is evil because they're associating with Belkar.

That's because Elan was too stupid to know the impact of what he was really doing as well. :smalltongue:

-Edit-
V: Somehow I knew someone would take me seriously... :smallsigh:

[Laurentio]

Thog doesn't kill people he likes. Case in point, he didn't kill Elan when given the opportunity, but instead attacked Haley, someone he didn't know.
Opportunity and provocation are two different things. Thog didn't kill lot of people just out of opportunity, for what matter.
But we know that Elan don't like to have him bored or pissed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html), and I don't believe that is just for the welfare of innocents or for real care of Thog's feeling (he would sacrificate him, or at least allow him to be injuried without a second through (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)).

About Thog going to save Nale: it's has been told ad nauseam that evil is not sinonimous of jackass. Evil people can have friends and lovers, as long as they fits in their personal feelings. Problem is for people outside the evil guy interest (a condiction know as "being a clueless victim" or "screwed!"). Now, ask yourself: "Would Elan and Thog killed half a thousand innocent person in the way to rescue Hailey and Nale?". Elan would say "No", Thog "Again? Candy!".


That's because Elan was too stupid to know the impact of what he was really doing as well. :smalltongue:
Nope. Elan know and regret, and that is what qualify him as good, or at least not evil. Evil have no or very few regrets, otherwise could no act evilly. Elan cares and tries to better himself. Stealing is a bad act, but not a one that can singly taunt your soul (and stealing on a rescue mission is quite acceptable).

Laurentio

[Talya]

Very few beings are "pure evil." Unless you count the abyss, I suppose. Then there are infinite beings of pure evil. But I digress.

Most evil people have elements of neutral and perhaps even good. Those elements might even outnumber the evil elements. But they don't matter. Evil is very corrupting, by its nature.

Think of it this way.

You have a drinking glass. It's full. 90% of its contents are pure, fresh, springwater, full of healthy minerals. The other 10% is arsenic.

Is the drink healthy? Or poison?

So it is with evil. The other 90% of you that is good won't overpower the 10% that's evil. The man can be a loving husband, good father, generous philanthropist, and serial murderer. He's still evil.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Thog is not evil.

He is Chaotic food(icecream).

[bluewind95]

Wait, don't your actions affect your alignment? I mean, if that's the case, it doesn't even matter if Thog is chaotic neutral.... his actions already threw him all the way to chaotic evil.

[kunou126]

I love discussions like these cause they lead to spirited bickering.

Alignment is not an absolutist attribute. It is more of a guideline. It's funny to see people show one example of something "good" as an indicator that he therefore isn't "evil".

Where this is concerned, there are shades of good and evil in all things. Even the most sadistic killer can have sympathy for something. Hitler had a fondness for blonde haired blue eyed boys. Thog's got a soft spot for puppies and icecream.

Left to his own devices, Thog is clearly evil. He's selfishly motivated and has shown no concern for the true wellfare of the innocent - no conscience per say for those he harms along the way. He does have a boyish innocence about it which we all adore.

Thog has a need to feel approval. Nale is more Thog's father figure and its safe to say that Nale means a lot to Thog, but demonstrating love for someone (even a father figure) and being evil are not mutually exclusive. In fact, a lot of evil things are done out of love for someone.

Anywho... there is no absolutism in alignment. The scale of good and evil is more like a question of how much input your conscience has in limiting what you do to obtain what you desire. In Thog's case, that conscience doesn't even exist.

[Renx]

Thog is what we like to call "Chaotic Stupid".

[Jayabalard]

let me preface this with the fact that I agree that thog is evil... it doesn't really matter what his intelligence level is, or how much he understands... the fact that it is in his nature to do evil, and that he does so without any qualms is enough to label him as evil in my opinion.

but if you're going to make an argument about it, you should stick to arguments that are actually valid... and Porthos' don't qualify.


Thog has an INT that is 3 or aboveThis seems like it's just an assumption with nothing to back it up... which doesn't generally make good "evidence"


Thog knows right from wrong. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html)the statement "no, Thog guilty" does not actually imply that he knows right from wrong... all it means that that he knows that he did what they said he did, which isn't the same thing at all.

To me, it show the exact opposite of what you're claiming: Thog can so easily admit his guild because he cannot tell right from wrong and does not see anything wrong with what he's done.


We've seen people who have childlike Intelligence arrive in the LG afterlife. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) (So the fact that he is easily impressionable and childlike has been nullified) This doesn't support your argument in any way; the fact that we've seen children and child like intelligences in the LG afterlife does not imply that they are LG, or even that they are capable of having an alignment.

[Quorothorn]

let me preface this with the fact that I agree that thog is evil... it doesn't really matter what his intelligence level is, or how much he understands... the fact that it is in his nature to do evil, and that he does so without any qualms is enough to label him as evil in my opinion.

but if you're going to make an argument about it, you should stick to arguments that are actually valid... and Porthos' don't qualify.

This seems like it's just an assumption with nothing to back it up... which doesn't generally make good "evidence"

Well, the PHB says that a Half-Orc's INT cannot be reduced below 3 by the racial penalty, so...it's an assumption explicitly backed up by Core.

[Project_Mayhem]

Further, I don't hear anyone arguing that Elan is now Chaotic Neutral because he stole from a store on three seperate occasions, or that the whole order is evil because they're associating with Belkar.

Actually ... Miko?

[Jayabalard]

Well, the PHB says that a Half-Orc's INT cannot be reduced below 3 by the racial penalty, so...it's an assumption explicitly backed up by Core.There are things in the game that pre-date the 3.5 rules, things that have been houseruled or homebrewed, and things that are obvious examples of DM fiat, so depending on any specific core rule existing in the OoTS world is not necessarily a valid assumption just in and of itself.

Also, while that particular piece may be covered by the core rules, there are things other than racial penalties that can reduce a character's int.

[Yogi]

According to RAW, Alignment is determined by actions, with exceptions only for truly extenuating circumstances, usually involving mind control or having your intended actions backfire through no fault of your own. The exact example given is climbing a slope to escape Bugbears, only to dislodge some rocks, cause an avalanche, and wipe out a town. "He told me to." does not qualify as extenuating circumstances. Therefore, Thog is judged on his actions and is therefore CHAOTIC EVIL.

[NerfTW]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html


:thog:: Thog delays boredom driven rampage only for you!

Child like intelligence or not, a murderous rampage, of his own choice, makes him evil. Even if he doesn't understand right and wrong, he's still commiting evil acts of his own choosing.

[Frictional]

According to RAW, Alignment is determined by actions, with exceptions only for truly extenuating circumstances, usually involving mind control or having your intended actions backfire through no fault of your own. The exact example given is climbing a slope to escape Bugbears, only to dislodge some rocks, cause an avalanche, and wipe out a town. "He told me to." does not qualify as extenuating circumstances. Therefore, Thog is judged on his actions and is therefore CHAOTIC EVIL.

This argument isn't perfect. If "he told me to" does not qualify, then his actions in either case of following Elan or Nale would mean nothing, and he could be Chaotic Neutral. Better Phrasing: if Nale tells him to and that doesn't mean anything, he doesn't necessarily need to be Evil. Then, if Elan tells him to and it also doesn't mean anything, he doesn't necessarily need to be Good.

However...


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html



:thog: Thog delays boredom driven rampage only for you!
Child like intelligence or not, a murderous rampage, of his own choice, makes him evil. Even if he doesn't understand right and wrong, he's still commiting evil acts of his own choosing.

If you add this in, then it is Thog's actions alone that make him Evil.

However again...

You can't beat the teddy bear. :smallamused:

[FujinAkari]

There are things in the game that pre-date the 3.5 rules, things that have been houseruled or homebrewed, and things that are obvious examples of DM fiat, so depending on any specific core rule existing in the OoTS world is not necessarily a valid assumption just in and of itself.

OOTS is a D&D parody comic, and uses the D&D 3.5 Ruleset as its base. While you are correct that Rich can make houserules and change the rules as he wishes, claiming that the core rules are undependable isn't valid. If you wish to argue that Rich has changed this specific rule, then you need to back up your claim with evidence.

The Core rulebook isn't the highest form of canon, but it is still canon. If you wish to disregard it, you have the burden of proof.


Also, while that particular piece may be covered by the core rules, there are things other than racial penalties that can reduce a character's int.

Then you need to demonstrate that one of these things is affecting Thog (which it isn't, btw, characters with an Int lower than three are incapable of speech.)

[Old_el_Paso]

What good acts did Thog ever commit when he was with Elan? I'll give you that he wasn't expressedly evil, but I remember him stealing from shopkeeps and stowing away on airships, not very good acts :P

Lawful does not equal good.

[kunou126]

Lawful does not equal good.


Lawful does not equal obeys the law either. There are times where it is Lawful in nature to commit an act of theft.

Lawful vs. Chaotic is better described Patterned behavior vs. Random behavior. The "laws of the land" have little to do with it, though laws generally well accepted as appropriate and necessary for ordered society to a lawful character.

What I mean by this can be expanded and confirmed by the simple rule that bards must choose a non-lawful alignment. It is not because bards frequently commit acts of crime, it is because a lawful character by nature lacks creativity.

Lawful characters learn from example and always fall back on what they have been taught to do when approaching a situation. A chaotic character approaches each situation anew drawing little from past experiences - if they something the same way twice in a row, its coincidence. This is why when presented with a fire, a lawful character will immediately start looking for water to put it out, where a chaotic one might start stomping on it, throwing blankets on it, or grab the nearest fluid (without considering potential flamability) and throw it on the fire.

[Yogi]

This argument isn't perfect. If "he told me to" does not qualify, then his actions in either case of following Elan or Nale would mean nothing, and he could be Chaotic Neutral."HUH? How did you get THAT conclusion?

Since "he told me to" does not qualify as extenuating circumstances, then Thog is responsible for all of his actions, both good and evil. Nale and Elan don't factor into it.

[Frictional]

HUH? How did you get THAT conclusion?

Since "he told me to" does not qualify as extenuating circumstances, then Thog is responsible for all of his actions, both good and evil. Nale and Elan don't factor into it.


both good and evil
And hence he could be neutral.

My thought was agreeing with you; his allignment is based wholly on his actions, and his actions seem to follow who he is with (not necessarily what they tell him); a tendency to good with Elan and evil with Nale.

The reason I said it wasn't perfect is you didn't provide an example, because we know that he would have more evil tendencies when left alone. And that's the kicker right there. You provided a general equation, but no initial conditions. ;)

[FujinAkari]

And hence he could be neutral.

My thought was agreeing with you; his allignment is based wholly on his actions, and his actions seem to follow who he is with (not necessarily what they tell him); a tendency to good with Elan and evil with Nale.

I still haven't seen anyone cite a single Good action Thog did while with Elan :P

[Talya]

And again, any good actions one might come up with for Thog wouldn't outweigh the evil he's done.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4027522&postcount=33

[Klev]

I can buy that Thog is Neutral after someone can explain THIS (Comic 51) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) being anything from text book evil. I mean I bet there is a very good explanation for him killing a defenceless girl begging for her life without any remorse and without any orders from Nale and NOT being Evil...

[Frictional]

I still haven't seen anyone cite a single Good action Thog did while with Elan :P

*delteted*

[MyrddinDerwydd]

1) We have established that Thog willing does evil acts (rampages, killing etc) at Nale's behest and of his own desire.
---thus, he's evil.

2) We have also shown that he doesn't really know good from evil per se, or if he did, he wouldn't be guided by it, or any rules and conventions established by either side.
---thus, chaotic.

Given that the only things we've seen have any semblance of control/guiding force over Thog are ice cream, boredom, self interest and loyalty, it seems appropriate to class him as CE no matter who he's helped, how many teddy bears he's hugged, or how many puppies he's petted.:thog: :nale:

[Hippoboy]

Well, the crime in question here is killing a lot of innocent people and city guards. Yet Thog doesn't show any remorse.
Face it people, he's evil.

you missed my point.
it's not the crime it's that he doesn't get that it is bad.

And Nale is scared of him not neccecarily because of his 'cruelty' but because of Thog's enormous combat prowess.

Also while i don't play D&D i have read some of the Manuals and evil tends to have no respect for comrades
e.g
Lawful Evil: tries to chain allies in contracts for benefit
Neutral Evil: has no qualms about betraying allies
Chaotic Evil:would kill allies to become top dog

Thog has shown a willingness to risk his life to save his friends (who happen to be evil) is a characteistic of being GOOD

and i say thog isn't really evil because he doesn't give off the evil 'vibe', i mean i love Xykon but i know he is Evil.

And when he made that dwarf his friend you could tell in his speech he was clueless about the pain he was causing, ye gods man he was on the verge of tears when he had to leave him, he's like a todler who can't work out that people get hurt when he hits them

[brilliantlight]

Thog is simply weak willed chaotic evil. He has a Wis score of around 3 or 4 and can easily be led by almost anyone. He is a dumber but less evil Belker.

[Yogi]

And hence he could be neutral.
. . . WTB?

Thog's Evil actions outweigh his good actions by a significant margin, according to what was shown in the OotS comics. Hence, that is why most people think he's evil. Even those who disagree will admit that he has done many evil actions with little good actions to balance it.

My thought was agreeing with you; his allignment is based wholly on his actions, and his actions seem to follow who he is with (not necessarily what they tell him); a tendency to good with Elan and evil with Nale.Which, as I said, means nothing. So he does evil around Nale, good around Elan, and Evil when around both of them. He still spend the majority of his time with Nale which means most of his actions are evil, which means he's evil.

The reason I said it wasn't perfect is you didn't provide an example, because we know that he would have more evil tendencies when left alone. And that's the kicker right there. You provided a general equation, but no initial conditions. ;)The "conditions" DO. NOT. MATTER. That was the point of my argument which you apparently missed. It doesn't matter if he was with Elan, Nale or whoever else. He is still solely responsible for his own actions.

As for examples, you know perfectly well that Thog has committed evil actions before. Is you insist on a specific example, strip number 339.

[The Extinguisher]

you missed my point.
it's not the crime it's that he doesn't get that it is bad.

And Nale is scared of him not neccecarily because of his 'cruelty' but because of Thog's enormous combat prowess.

Also while i don't play D&D i have read some of the Manuals and evil tends to have no respect for comrades
e.g
Lawful Evil: tries to chain allies in contracts for benefit
Neutral Evil: has no qualms about betraying allies
Chaotic Evil:would kill allies to become top dog

Thog has shown a willingness to risk his life to save his friends (who happen to be evil) is a characteistic of being GOOD

and i say thog isn't really evil because he doesn't give off the evil 'vibe', i mean i love Xykon but i know he is Evil.

And when he made that dwarf his friend you could tell in his speech he was clueless about the pain he was causing, ye gods man he was on the verge of tears when he had to leave him, he's like a todler who can't work out that people get hurt when he hits them

No. Evil are still allowed to have strong friendships, fall in love, not be a loner. Sure, some don't like people, but they aren't defining traits of evil.

Examples: Belkar: Very evil. Also attached to Mr. Scruffy. He hasn't killed him yet. He must be Lawful Good!

[FujinAkari]

Also while i don't play D&D i have read some of the Manuals and evil tends to have no respect for comrades
e.g
Lawful Evil: tries to chain allies in contracts for benefit
Neutral Evil: has no qualms about betraying allies
Chaotic Evil:would kill allies to become top dog

This is a stereotype, not a requirement. Evil characters can and do maintain lasting friendships and hold high levels of respect for their allies. But hey, don't take my word for it, just ask Rich Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html)!


n an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

[Demented]

I can buy that Thog is Neutral after someone can explain THIS (Comic 51) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) being anything from text book evil. I mean I bet there is a very good explanation for him killing a defenceless girl begging for her life without any remorse and without any orders from Nale and NOT being Evil...

He actually did have orders from Nale. Nale wanted the elementals dead as part of his plan.

He did resist arrest rather gleefully...

[Laurentio]

Lot of lot of laugh.
While I admit that Thog is not PURE evil, I find amusing people trying to stretch his acting up to Chaotic Neutral. Really, I like the issue for the sheet value of a good talk, but in a tribunal some one would have been arrested for "offending the court".

Let's start from a common ground:
- Thog is very very stupid, yet intelligent enough to make choices. No matter the AD&D stat, okay? Just he is not a plant, can speak a language, can dress himself (probably);
- Thog acts evil. Mostly when adviced or ordered by Nale, but even alone. And even AGAINST Nale advice, as he have to fuel Thog with ice-cream to avoid a massacre (otherwise, Nale could just order him to stay quite);
- Thog as no value for his victim or puppets, other than his fun or advantage;
- Nale is a friend, a mentor and a guide. Most likely, a father. That is possible for an Evil character (while probably less for a Pure Evil) to love someone. And don't forget that Nale is a provider of ice-cream, sugar, rocket skates, fun and class leveling advices. Not a bad friend to have.

Laurentio

[Heliomance]

let me preface this with the fact that I agree that thog is evil... it doesn't really matter what his intelligence level is, or how much he understands... the fact that it is in his nature to do evil, and that he does so without any qualms is enough to label him as evil in my opinion.

but if you're going to make an argument about it, you should stick to arguments that are actually valid... and Porthos' don't qualify.

This seems like it's just an assumption with nothing to back it up... which doesn't generally make good "evidence"

Actually, anything with less than 3 INT is non-sentient, so Thg's INT is most difinitely 3 or above.



the statement "no, Thog guilty" does not actually imply that he knows right from wrong... all it means that that he knows that he did what they said he did, which isn't the same thing at all.

To me, it show the exact opposite of what you're claiming: Thog can so easily admit his guild because he cannot tell right from wrong and does not see anything wrong with what he's done.
Eh... no comment either way.


This doesn't support your argument in any way; the fact that we've seen children and child like intelligences in the LG afterlife does not imply that they are LG, or even that they are capable of having an alignment.Actualy, it kinda does. By definition, to end up in the LG afterlife, you have to be LG.


Also, Thog is clearly evil. My reasoning is simple. He tried to get Nale to play Celine Dion.

[technoextreme]

I can buy that Thog is Neutral after someone can explain THIS (Comic 51) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) being anything from text book evil. I mean I bet there is a very good explanation for him killing a defenceless girl begging for her life without any remorse and without any orders from Nale and NOT being Evil...
Actually, you can explain that quite readily. Your dealing with a mentally disturbed person. My mother worked with people like that and Thog is an excellent example of what she dealt with on a constant basis. One minute they would be child like and happy go lucky and the next minute they could be on a warpath with no regard for anyone. It had high turnover rates because of that fact. True this is real life and I doubt Dungeons and Dragons actually has any provisions for disturbed people. Actually chaotic neutral is the best choice if he is in fact insane which given the 538 comics so far is a pretty good bet. In fact I wouldn't even be surprised if Nale just grabbed Thog out of the nearest insane asylum.

[Scatman]

Well. I've read two pages. And I've come to a conclusion, along with my buddy Thog here.

:thog:thog confused by people talking about his alignment. thog have ice-cream to delay rampage now!.. NO SPRINKLES?! THOG KILLS FIRST COMMONER IN SIGHT!

As you can say, he is chaotic-something. I'll just leave it at that. No one can say that he's anything else. But this disscussion is on if he is PURE EVIL. No. More than likely, no non-fiend PC is pure evil. I recall someone saying demons are pure evil- they are also pure chaos. :smallbiggrin:
Rather, you can. You've quoted me to tell me how he is Lawful Good or nuetral. Thank you for taking the time to argue against me. If you highlighted this? Suspicious little-

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Well. I've read two pages. And I've come to a conclusion, along with my buddy Thog here.

:thog:thog confused by people talking about his alignment. thog have ice-cream to delay rampage now!.. NO SPRINKLES?! THOG KILLS FIRST COMMONER IN SIGHT!

As you can say, he is chaotic-something. I'll just leave it at that. No one can say that he's anything else. But this disscussion is on if he is PURE EVIL. No. More than likely, no non-fiend PC is pure evil. I recall someone saying demons are pure evil- they are also pure chaos. :smallbiggrin:

Rather, you can. You've quoted me to tell me how he is Lawful Good or nuetral. Thank you for taking the time to argue against me. If you highlighted this? Suspicious little- he he, the last paragraph of that was white and hidden...

Ooo, sneaky Scatman. But you're wrong. I'm just glad that someone else is saying that the stupid debate is pretty childish, has been done before numerous times, and that :thog: the Thoginator's alliance is about as obvious as axe to the head *bows*

[Corsair]

Frankly, I'm not sure Thog has the intellectual capacity to maintain an alignment of this kind of complexity. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that he's got an INT and WIS score of 4.

I think in real world terms, Thog isn't evil per se, more like just totally out of touch with any kind of empathy. Combine that with incredible stupidity and a case of ADHD like he's on a permanent dose of speed and you've got a recipe for a mass murderer who does it for the adrenaline.

In DND terms, I'd say he's Chaotic Neutral. Not because his actions aren't evil, but that he simply doesn't understand that hitting someone with a greataxe hurts. I can't really say he sees anyone as an actual person, more like toys. However, he's riding the line between Neutral and Evil.

Then again, I'd say Xykon and Belkar are out of touch with any kind of empathy too, but I'd hardly say they're not evil. Thog isn't as cut and dry as the rest, mainly since Belkar and Xykon both have a modicum of intelligence, if not much wisdom.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Frankly, I'm not sure Thog has the intellectual capacity to maintain an alignment of this kind of complexity.

I think this may be the only time we hear Chaotic Evil described as too complex.:smallconfused:

Oh...that's because it's not...

However, if Thog were CN, then it would theoretically be equally likely that he would be as happy handing out flowers and baking cakes as he is about bashing heads. Unfortunately, even though his cluelessness lets him be ok with good things, when anything he wants is taken away, he immediately resorts to violence. I don't know if we can let that slide as childish tantrums...

[technoextreme]

Actually, now that I've run through all the 3.5 alignments I have to say Thog could very well be chaotic nothing. It looks like all the alignments actually have to have you knowing what the hell you are doing.
Unfortunately, even though his cluelessness lets him be ok with good things, when anything he wants is taken away, he immediately resorts to violence. I don't know if we can let that slide as childish tantrums...
Yeah you can because that's how it works in real life though in real life they are placed into a situation where they can't harm many people.

[FujinAkari]

Actually, now that I've run through all the 3.5 alignments I have to say Thog could very well be chaotic nothing. It looks like all the alignments actually have to have you knowing what the hell you are doing.

Where did this come from? This isn't in the SRD, as far as I know.

[technoextreme]

Where did this come from? This isn't in the SRD, as far as I know.
Never mind I didn't read the part where a person incapable of moral actions would be lumped in a with a bear.

[Spiky]

Thog likes puppies :smallbiggrin: Someone that likes puppies can't be pure evil.

Actually, puppies are the closest thing I've found to pure evil IRL. They have enslaved an entire gender (females) with their Mind Control (cuteness) and done quite a number on the other gender, too. And they slobber. Ugh.

It stands to reason anyone who chooses to want them around must also be evil.

[Cute_Riolu]

<snip>
Lawful vs. Chaotic is better described Patterned behavior vs. Random behavior. The "laws of the land" have little to do with it, though laws generally well accepted as appropriate and necessary for ordered society to a lawful character.


Wrong. Chaotic =/= Random, nor does it mean not drawing from past experiences. Chaotic is approaching each situation separately, looking for the solution that works best for the current situation. It may be that a lawful character and a chaotic character come to the same conclusion, but by different means.

[Scatman]

I think I'll just list evil things Thog has done.
Used a dwarf as a pet
Killed a sylph
Done at least 200 murders
Done several boredom-driven rampages
Stolen from a store

To just name some.
But again, this is on if Thog is PURE EVIL! Not his exact alignment.

Good tasks:
[Insert good task]

[Hippoboy]

Frankly, I'm not sure Thog has the intellectual capacity to maintain an alignment of this kind of complexity. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that he's got an INT and WIS score of 4.

I think in real world terms, Thog isn't evil per se, more like just totally out of touch with any kind of empathy. Combine that with incredible stupidity and a case of ADHD like he's on a permanent dose of speed and you've got a recipe for a mass murderer who does it for the adrenaline.

In DND terms, I'd say he's Chaotic Neutral. Not because his actions aren't evil, but that he simply doesn't understand that hitting someone with a greataxe hurts. I can't really say he sees anyone as an actual person, more like toys. However, he's riding the line between Neutral and Evil.

Then again, I'd say Xykon and Belkar are out of touch with any kind of empathy too, but I'd hardly say they're not evil. Thog isn't as cut and dry as the rest, mainly since Belkar and Xykon both have a modicum of intelligence, if not much wisdom.


well xykon does know that he's being bad but the pain he causes is his main source of enjoyment