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CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-05, 10:54 PM
After a delay (life, and all that), I have the third round of the Clash of the Nine Swords complete.

Round I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73908)
Round II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73938)

Once again, this is just a simulation, done by me, with unoptomized characters, simply for fun. Each character started with the Elite Array and 760,000 gp worth of equipment, with LA races having bought off their LA (and paying for it in gold).

So without further ado, I present to you,

Tournament Round III: Diamond Mind vs. Tiger Claw.

The next randomly selected pairing is rather interesting, in that they represent polar opposite philosophies: Diamond Mind emphasizes complete control of body and mind, while Tiger Claw encourages a warrior to give in to instinct and ignore the rational, civilized higher mind. Also, the infamous Tiger Shadow Horde destroyed the Temple of Nine Swords after Supernal Clarity, the iconic sword of the Diamond Mind school, was stolen. Is this more than simply fate?

The master of Diamond Mind is Sharla Gyeenen, a githyanki warblade wielding Supernal Clarity, the mythical rapier. The Tiger Claw master is Tharron Clanbash, a bloodthirsty orc warlord infamous for his cruel tactics. He wields Tiger Fang the kukri that encompasses the Tiger Claw discipline, as well as a +2 Speed Keen Kukri, which Tharron lovingly refers to as "Sharp Tooth."

Sharla
Sharla: female githyanki warblade 20; medium humanoid (extraplanar, psionic); HD 20d12+108; hp 243/243; init.+11; Spd. 30 ft.; AC 45, touch 26, flat footed 34; Base Atk+20/+15/+10/+5; Grp.+22; Atk +34 melee (1d6+10/15-20, rapier); Full Atk +34/+29/+24/+19; SA intimidating strike, diamond strike, haste; SQ darkvision 60 ft., naturally psionic 3, PR 25, weapon aptitude, battle clarity, uncanny dodge, battle ardor, improved uncanny dodge, battle cunning, battle skill, battle mastery, stance mastery, psychic poise; AL LE; SV Fort.+18, Ref.+25, Will+9; Str 18, Dex 32, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8.
Skills and Feats: Concentration+40, Jump+30, Listen+11, Martial Lore+7, Spot+11, Tumble+37; Weapon Finesse, Unnerving Calm, Power Attack, Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body, Instant Clarity, Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind), Combat Reflexes, Deep Impact, Improved Initiative.
Languages: Gith, Common, Draconic.
Supernal Clarity's Gifts: +1 insight bonus to Diamond Mind strike attacks, 3/3 day: substitute Concentration check for Balance check. 5/5 day: swift haste for 1 round. 5/5 day: Sapphire Nightmare Blade.
Spell-like Abilities: 1/1 day: Immediate Freedom of Movement, 1 min. (CL 10th). 1/1 day: Time Stop (CL 20th).
Psi-like Abilities: (ML 10th; save DC 9+power level) 3/3 day: Far Hand, Daze. 3/3 day: Concealing Amorpha. 3/3 day: Dimension Door. 3/3 day: Telekinetic Thrust. 1/1 day: Plane Shift.
Supernal Clarity's Toll: -2 ATK rolls, -4 Fort. saves, 12 hp lost.
Warblade Maneuvers Known: (IL 20th) 1: Moment of Perfect Mind. 2: Action Before Thought, Emerald Razor. 3: Mind Over Body. 4: Bounding Assault. 5: Rapid Counter. 6: Moment of Alacrity, Greater Insightful Strike. 7: Avalanche of Blades, Quicksilver Motion. 8: Diamond Nightmare Blade, Diamond Defense. 9: Time Stands Still. Maneuvers Readied: 7
Stances Known: 1: Stance of Clarity, Punishing Stance. 5: Hearing the Air. 8: Stance of Alacrity.
Possessions: Supernal Clarity (+5 keen rapier), +5 heavy fortification heavy mithral shield, belt of giant strength+4, cloak of resistance+3, dust of disappearance, winged boots, gloves of dexterity+6, bracers of armor+8, headband of intellect+6, amulet of health+6, ring of protection+5, skin of the defender, third eye concentrate, ring of evasion, handy haversack, robe of scintillating colors, luckstone. Tattoos: 4 Body Purification, 2 Body Adjustment, 5 Specified Energy Adaptation, Body Equilibrium, Biofeedback, 2 Vigor, Conceal Thoughts. Potions: 4 Cure Serious Wounds, good hope, water breathing, remove curse, remove disease, 2 remove blindness/deafness.

Tharron
Tharron Clanbash: male orc warblade 20; medium humanoid (orc); HD 20d12+128; hp 263/263; init.+10; Spd. 30 ft.; AC 39, touch 26, flat footed 29; Base Atk+20/+15/+10/+5; Grp.+27; Atk +29 melee (1d4+11/15-10x4, kukri); Full Atk +27/+22/+17/+12//+28/+28/+23/+18 (Tiger Fang // 1d4+7/15-20+1 CON, kukri); SA battle ardor, battle cunning, battle mastery, frenzied charge, battle fever, sharp claw, vicious attack, power critical, devastating attack; SQ darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity, battle clarity, weapon aptitude, improved uncanny dodge, battle skill, stance mastery; AL CE; SV Fort.+18, Ref.+22, Will+8; Str 28, Dex 30, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Concentration+23, Jump+32, Intimidate+23, Tumble+35; Two-Weapon Fighting, Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw), Quick Draw, Reaping Talons, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Bind-Fight, Combat Reflexes.
Languages: Common, Orc.
Tiger Fang's Gifts: 1/1 day: one extra attack with Tiger Fang during a charge. 5/5 day: during a round that you attacked with Tiger Fang, swift action to cure 2d8 damage. +1 damage with Tiger Fang while in a Tiger Claw stance. +4 confirm critical hits with Tiger Fang.
Spell-like Abilities: 5/5 day: Swift Haste.
Tiger Fang's Toll: -2 Attacks, -4 Fort. saves, 12 hp lost.
Warblade Maneuvers Known: 1: Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind. 4: Bounding Assault. 5: Pouncing Charge. 6: Rabid Bear Strike, Moment of Alacrity. 7: Swooping Dragon Strike, Hamstring Attack. 8: Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Diamond Defense. 9: Feral Death Blow, Time Stands Still.
Stances Known: 1: Hunter's Sense, Blood in the Water. 3: Leaping Dragon Stance. 8: Wolf Pack Tactics.
Possessions: Tiger Fang (+1 keen kukri), +2 speed keen kukri, amulet of natural armor+5, gloves of dexterity+6, dusty rose ioun stone, ring of protection+5, belt of giant strength+6, cloak of resistance+3, winged boots, headband of intellect+6, vest of consitution+6, bracers of armor+8, ring of freedom of movement, handy haversack, skin of nimbleness, 5 potions of Resist Energy (30, one of each type), 3 potions of Cure Serious Wounds, 2 oils of Greater Magic Weapon (+5), 3 potions of Lesser Restoration, 2 potions of Neutralize Poison, 2 potions of Remove Blindness/Deafness, potion of Good Hope, potion of Remove Fear.

Conditions
100 ft. square, featureless arena, opponents begin 30 ft. away from each other in the middle of the space. For the third time in a row, the randomly determined time of day is High Noon, meaning Tharron is dazzled the entire fight.

Round 1
Before any actions are taken, the two warriors take the time to stare each other down in a duel of wills. However, thanks to Sharla's Unnerving Calm, the githyanki easily crushes the orc's spirit. The sunlight, combined with the demoralizing stare of his foe, leaves Tharron at a distinct disadvantage right from the beginning.
However, the furious orc seizes the initiative. Without even taking the time to assume a martial stance, the warlord quickly draws both of his blades and executes a Pouncing Charge. He crashes into his flat-footed nemesis like a half-crazed, slashing, snarling beast, unleashing the full fury of the Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip. Although the bewildered Sharla puts up a decent defense, the savage orc lands two hits with Tiger Fang and three slashes with 'Sharp Tooth.' With each blow he tears at the githyanki's flesh, dealing horrific rending wounds. In a single round Sharla takes a stunning 124 damage.
A lesser warrior would surely have been reduced to bloody ribbons, but Sharla thinks quickly. She tumbles away from her snarling foe, draws Supernal Clarity, then uses the sword's supernatural power to speed her movements to superhuman levels. Effectively gaining the benefit of a Time Stop spell, the githyanki takes 12 virtual seconds to compose herself. She assumes the Stance of Alacrity and the Stance of Clarity, then uses two psionic tattoos on her body: one to heal some of the damage she has taken, and one to improve her body's metabolism, granting her modest damage reduction. Just before she reenters the time stream, she speaks the command word on her Robe of Scintillating Colors, to further confound Tharron in the battle to come.

Round 2
Without even realizing that his opponent has bent the laws of time and space, Tharron presses the attack. He assumes the Blood in the Water and Leaping Dragon Stance, then jumps an incredible twenty feet, right over the head of Sharla. He then executes the dreaded Swooping Dragon Strike, but his blade only slices a lock of Sharla's hair off, just barely missing her jugular vein.
Once again tapping into her sword's mystical energies, Sharla receives the benefit of a Haste spell before unleashing the ultimate Diamond Mind maneuver: Time Stands Still. Moving faster than the eye can follow, she unleashes a tornado of strikes, thrusts, and jabs to rival Tharron's initial explosion of attacks. However, the orc keeps his wits about him and manages to parry or evade several of the blows. Sharla manages to wound the orc four times, with one blow puncturing through his lower abdomen in a nasty critical hit. Without the reckless savagery of Tiger Claw behind her strikes, however, the githyanki only manages to deal 73 damage.

Round 3
Tharron shrugs off the worst of Sharla's barrage, and unleashes a Time Stands Still strike of his own, this time coupled with a Raging Mongoose boost. Like a hurricane of razor-sharp steel, Tharron unleashes attack after attack. However, Sharla's defenses are just too effective for him to overcome effectively. He only manages to land a single decent slash with his off-hand kukri, dealing a paltry 6 damage.
Realizing that she has the defensive advantage, Sharla decides to alter her tactics. She takes a moment to refocus, using Moment of Alacrity to boost her initiative, then uses her Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body to intimidate Tharron into making even less accurate attacks. Finally, she executes an Avalanche of Blades maneuver, but fumbles the initial strike, causing her to waste precious concentration and time.

Round 4
Thanks to her refocusing boost, Sharla is able to act again before Tharron can take advantage of her botched maneuver. She expends her psionic focus, using her Deep Impact ability to improve her next strike into a touch attack, then executes a Greater Insightful Strike, slowing down time for a brief moment before plunging her rapier right into a vulnerable spot near the orc's right shoulder. The blade pierces straight through Tharron, the tip emerging out of the other side of his back before withdrawal. He loses a horrendous amount of blood, taking 86 damage from a single thrust. Sharla then uses her Instant Clarity to quickly regain her psionic focus before tumbling away 15 feet.
Tharron begins to sweat, knowing in his gut that he might be fighting a hopeless battle. With a roar of rage, he runs up to his foe and attempts to slash at her legs with a nasty Hamstring Attack, but again the nimble warblade evades his strike with ease.

Round 5
Confident in her ability to hit her target, Sharla concentrates, taking in the weakpoints in the orc's defenses. She combines the dreaded Diamond Nightmare Blade with Greater Psionic Weapon, and Supernal Clarity again plunges through Tharron's torso, glowing with malevolent psychic energies. He takes a punishing 68 damage, coughing up warm blood as he feels his strength begin to leave him. Once again the githyanki tumbles away, regaining her psionic focus with practiced ease.
Tharron is hurt in a bad way. He reaches into his pack and takes out a packet of Dust of Disappearance. He lets loose a cloud of the magic dust, turning completely invisible. He hopes that he can buy some time to heal up and ready himself properly. The orc takes a moment to recover his expended maneuvers.

Round 6
Seeing her foe disappear into nothing, Sharla adopts the Hearing the Air stance. She can just make out with her improved sense of hearing where the orc stands. Unsure of what he is planning, but unwilling to lose track of his location, Sharla holds her ground, activating her tattoo of Offensive Prescience to boost her damage output.
As Tharron reaches for a potion, suddenly he becomes enthralled by the beautiful, dancing colors emanating from his opponent's magical robe. He stands, slack jawed, dazed, unaware that the battle is essentially over.

Sharla takes a few more rounds to prepare, but upon realizing that her foe is not moving, she moves up and executes another Time Stands Still full attack. While the orc's invisibility causes most of her attacks to miss, she does land a single critical hit. With a satisfying 'thud,' the orc's invisible body hits the floor of the arena, a pool of foul orc blood beginning to pool in the dust. As her foe's body once again become visible, Sharla sheathes Supernal Clarity and teleports off the battlefield to tend to her injuries.

Aftermath
Victor: Sharla, githyanki warblade, Master of Diamond Mind.
Time Elapsed: 48 seconds.
Most Damage Dealt in a Single Round: Tharron, dealing 124 damage with his opening charge.

Want to hear a secret? This battle was actually over waaay earlier. I forgot to roll Tharron's saves against Sharla's robe in the first few rounds. While I let the events of those rounds stand, I rolled just to see what his saves would have been: He failed every round. He would have been dazed and essentially at Sharla's mercy right at the end of the second round.
Really, it was almost impossible for Tharron to hit Sharla because his weapons were simply not as powerful as Sharla's, and he had to spend his resources boosting both DEX and STR, while Sharla only had to really worry about DEX. Also, the githyanki's shield really made a difference, both to boost her AC and to provide heavy fortification, which protected her from the orc's nasty critical hit abilities.
All considerations aside, I also rolled like crap for both of them the entire fight. Repeatedly, I rolled absolute garbage, which just elongated what should have been a much shorter fight.

Next up: Setting Sun vs. Devoted Spirit.

Any bets on Setting Sun winning? Anyone? No takers? Seriously, you'll get 10 gp for putting nothing on Setting Sun! Still no takers? ... :smalleek:

ZeroSpace9000
2008-03-05, 11:02 PM
Uh, I can't find round 2. Can you linky?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-05, 11:03 PM
This one was a LOT more believable than the two previous fights. The last two were so staged Desert Wind and Shadow Hand could have been Wrestling Jobbers, but in this one, the contestant thatw as more powerful actually won. That said, I still object that most of the fighters never use their schools ultimate.

Vortling
2008-03-05, 11:03 PM
May I suggest consolidating these into one thread. Then people could find all of the challenges easily.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-05, 11:09 PM
This one was a LOT more believable than the two previous fights. The last two were so staged Desert Wind and Shadow Hand could have been Wrestling Jobbers, but in this one, the contestant thatw as more powerful actually won. That said, I still object that most of the fighters never use their schools ultimate.

Actually, aside from the first fight, everyone used their 9th level maneuver. However, not all of them were successful in doing so. Tharron never got the chance to use Feral Death Blow, since it's a full round action to execute and you need to be adjacent to the target. Once Sharla began tumbling around, he never got another chance to use it.

I'll provide links in a moment. Good suggestion!

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-05, 11:15 PM
Frankly, Setting Sun's a lot better than people seem to think. Tornado Throw is one of the top few high-level maneuvers, and can do a ton of damage.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-05, 11:31 PM
Frankly, Setting Sun's a lot better than people seem to think. Tornado Throw is one of the top few high-level maneuvers, and can do a ton of damage.

It certainly has a number of tricks available. I'm just concerned that the poor Setting Sun master is up against the nigh-unkillable Devoted Spirit crusader of Doom. White Raven was the odd man out this tier of the tournament, but I am unwilling to go against what I rolled. If it is Setting Sun's turn to prove itself, then so be it! Bwa ha ha ha!

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-05, 11:34 PM
A White Raven master fighting without any allies to use non-personal White Raven maneuvers on is kinda gimped.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-05, 11:53 PM
He has a bunch of items to help him summon mooks to work with, but yes, he is at a disadvantage.

Neftren
2008-03-05, 11:53 PM
I still think Iron Heart, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind are the top three disciplines. I mean, think about it. One you get to deal ludicrous amounts of damage with, the other you can deal 100 fire damage in one blow, the last one can do a lotta cool stuff with paralyzation and damage with Concentration.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-05, 11:58 PM
I still think Iron Heart, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind are the top three disciplines. I mean, think about it. One you get to deal ludicrous amounts of damage with, the other you can deal 100 fire damage in one blow, the last one can do a lotta cool stuff with paralyzation and damage with Concentration.

Sorry, but Desert Wind sucks.

Neftren
2008-03-06, 12:07 AM
Sorry, but Desert Wind sucks.

I beg to differ, but whatever. :smallbiggrin:
Looking forward to the next duel... when it comes out!

GammaPaladin
2008-03-06, 12:13 AM
Setting Sun is actually my favorite discipline. It's not made for duels, but with a chain weapon it turns you into a GOD of battlefield control.

Icewalker
2008-03-06, 12:19 AM
Yes, Diamond Mind kicks ass. These are really fun to read, I look forward to more.

Hunter Noventa
2008-03-06, 12:38 AM
I still think Iron Heart, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind are the top three disciplines. I mean, think about it. One you get to deal ludicrous amounts of damage with, the other you can deal 100 fire damage in one blow, the last one can do a lotta cool stuff with paralyzation and damage with Concentration.

Desert Wind is just fine for pvP, but the problem is that as you move up in level, everything and it's hellhound has fire resistance that only gets bigger, negating a good chunk of the school's moves.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 12:58 AM
I'm going to go against the norm and say this one is as bad (read unrealistic) as all the rest.

I don't see where the Orc spent any of his money, since he pretty much used no magic items aside from a dust and a potion (really bad idea when there are things like Belt of healing out there or Heartening enchantment.)

Why the duel of wills? Is there any particular reason other then being a slave to fluff? A Tiger Claw fanatic would probably never actually engage in one of those.

Second, these are Warblades, Ignoring for a moment that the Diamond Mind Sword is four thousand times better then the Tiger Claw one, the correct procedure with a high level Tiger Claw Warblade is to nova your boosts and strikes on a charge, then Feral Death Blow if the stay adjacent or refresh and do it again if they don't. Warblades regain maneuvers easily, no reason to run around using piddly level 3 maneuvers.

Also note that Diamond Mine used six different item effects, where Tiger Claw used one, and that only after he had basically already lost. A more Correct approach would be to use something like Belt of Battle to get in a Second Series of attacks. What did the Orc spend money on anyway? No LA to buy off, ****ty weapons, and a couple expendables that aren't even good (Dust of Disappearance versus Ring of Invisibility?) And why is every battle in broad day light but none of the races spend 50gp on Sundark goggles? Did you roll randomly to see if the combats take place inside of an arena? Underground? In a Forest? Why is everything, "You meet on a brightly lit plain."

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-06, 01:41 AM
The orc spent most of his money on stat boosters, bracers of armor, etc. It's all there in his stat block. Plus, a secondary weapon takes up a lot of extra cash.

I can't see anything particularly unrealistic about this battle. He had one opportunity in this fight to use Feral Death Blow, but it was early enough that he was still confident he could save it for later. I try to role play the characters while I roll play them.

Oh... and the next battle is going to require a very careful look at the 'Shifting Defense' stance, and actually shows a situation where Robilar's Gambit is a bad idea...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 05:06 AM
I can't see anything particularly unrealistic about this battle. He had one opportunity in this fight to use Feral Death Blow, but it was early enough that he was still confident he could save it for later. I try to role play the characters while I roll play them.

I always try to save my insta win abilities for later too.

For example, when playing Chess, I like to not check mate them now to trick them into allowing me to checkmate them later. Oh wait, that's retarded. Since he has exactly one way to provoke a save (Feral Death Blow) there is absolutely no reason to save it ever. And you still don't give any reason why he was using level 3-4 maneuvers instead of refreshing himself to use high level ones again.

SilentNight
2008-03-06, 09:46 AM
I still think Iron Heart, Desert Wind and Diamond Mind are the top three disciplines. I mean, think about it. One you get to deal ludicrous amounts of damage with, the other you can deal 100 fire damage in one blow, the last one can do a lotta cool stuff with paralyzation and damage with Concentration.

Not that big of a fan of desert wind. Iron Heart thought is the single coolest discipline ever. Diamond mind is also awesome. Even though I don't like it I'm going to have to agree with my group's power-gamer that shadow hand is also one of the most powerful. (Still got owned by Iron Heart though:smalltongue: ) Glad to see that my favorites seem to be winning. I do agree that the white raven guy is gimped. Although war masters charge is freakin' awesome.

Douglas
2008-03-06, 09:46 AM
Without even taking the time to assume a martial stance
You can start combat with a stance (or two, for a Warblade 20) already active. You only need to spend an action in combat if you want to change your stance after combat begins.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 09:58 AM
Actually, Shadow hand MIGHT, read, MIGHT be the joint most powerful discipline, up there with Diamond Mind, due to the sheer versatility, and being able to do things others can't do (You get negative levels while I can fly without help, sucka!). It its then followed by a joint seconds Tiger Claw and Iron Heart, then comes Devoted spirit and white raven, then stone dragon, and either desert wind or setting sun.

Keld Denar
2008-03-06, 10:24 AM
The problem with Desert Wind is most of the abilities are so fixed. When you make a melee attack with most disciplines abilities, you get to add other variables like str, dex, int, cha, weapon bonuses, feats, abilities, etc to your attack, allowing them to scale with level and gear. About 1/2 of the Desert Wind maneuvers don't have an attack roll, instead rely on a reflex save (5 base classes and countless prclasses have evasion) and the damage is fixed. It doesn't even scale with Initiator Level like spells do with Caster Level. If your maneuver does 4d6 damage to all creatures in a cone, thats all it does. You can't modify it, you can't Empower it, nothing. Even the capstone 9th level maneuver only does 100 damage. I can build a 10th level character that can do over 100 damage in a round. It just doesn't scale well.

That said, a lot of the mobility features of DW are pretty sweet. The dervish dance one and a few of the other movement abilities are an awesome suppliment to a Tiger Claw or Setting Sun focused swordsage.

Stycotl
2008-03-06, 12:18 PM
i don't have the book, so i don't know fo sure what the rules are about them, but aren't the majority of desert wind maneuvers considered supernatural effects? and isn't there a meta-feat tree for supernatural effects in tome of magic? is there a reason that you wouldn't be able to empower or maximize or whatever a supernatural maneuver with one of those feats? don't have ToM either, so this is just a thought.

Stycotl
2008-03-06, 12:21 PM
almost forgot...

cockroach, keep it up. this is real cool to see.

don't be too discouraged by the complaints. you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you just can't please all of the people all of the time.

no one can keep track of everything. there is always going to be a maneuver or a buff that you forget to add. i can't remember half of the times that i have forgotten a trick that a character of mine had until after the battle when i feel like i need to punch myself. even military geniuses such as robert e lee fubled the ball every now and then.

aaron out.

Draz74
2008-03-06, 01:14 PM
I have to side with the people who are saying that the Tiger Claw build doesn't seem to have been very optimized at all.

In my experience, Tiger Claw is one of the more powerful disciplines. But not if you use weak strikes like Hamstring Attack, or ignore fantastic abilities like Sudden Leap (which would have allowed him to use Feral Death Blow in almost any round). You have to really optimize your Jump skill, then use that Jump skill as much as possible. Oh, and you have to make sure your Will save can handle things like Robe of Scintillating Colors, too. :smallwink:

Of course, part of the problem does seem to be that the Diamond Mind contestant just had a lot of really good equipment. In particular, Heavy Fortification has always been an overpowered, too-absolute ability to stick on your armor or shield at high levels, and facing off a crit-based build like a Tiger Claw martial adept only compounds that problem.

As for the next battle ... I don't think Setting Sun is as weak as people seem to think. If it's used carefully. On the other hand, duels really aren't its specialty situation. I do think Setting Sun could beat White Raven or Desert Wind or maybe even Stone Dragon, if it's done well. But Devoted Spirit? That's a strong one. I will be very impressed if Setting Sun can actually pull that off.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 01:24 PM
Then again, we're talkin' diamond mind here. Feral deathblow would be botched every time, and do a piddly 5d6 damage, so maybe ignoring it was a wise idea.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-06, 01:27 PM
no one can keep track of everything. there is always going to be a maneuver or a buff that you forget to add. i can't remember half of the times that i have forgotten a trick that a character of mine had until after the battle when i feel like i need to punch myself. even military geniuses such as robert e lee fubled the ball every now and then.

aaron out.

Yeah, I've done that just about every time. It's one of the problems with rolling everything yourself. Me and a friend of mine are planning on fighting out similar duels of our own soon, but in the meantime I have to deal with mistakes. At any rate, I find that slightly more realistic than having the warriors do the single most optimized action every round.

As for the orc regaining his maneuvers, that requires a swift action, which is easy enough, but you cannot execute any other maneuvers in a round in which you do so, nor can you switch stances or anything like that. I played the orc in such a way that he was going for maximum offense with whatever he had available. But... whatever.

Also, for no real reason, I have everyone start without a stance active, their weapons sheathed. It's more of a formality than anything. Sure, during an actual adventure there's no reason not to have a stance on all the time, but in these duels activating a stance is just another precious swift action they must perform.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 01:29 PM
D'oh, couldn't the duels be done with help of the playgrounders and you DM'ing?

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-06, 01:35 PM
D'oh, couldn't the duels be done with help of the playgrounders and you DM'ing?

I'm considering running a martial tournament once I'm finished. This goes faster than PbP, though. Also, there are times when the forums just refuse to load on my computer. I'd hate to have people wait for me to even see their posts every night.

In due time... in due time. It might be fun to include more than just ToB characters. Like have a Tiger Claw adept face off against a barbarian, or a Desert Wind adept fight a dervish, etc.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 01:39 PM
Wouldn't be too fair. The ToBBer's would own any build that doesn't reek of Gorgonzola. And, I think that the ONLY build that would score a win would be an ubercharger fighter facing off against a iron heart warblade.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 04:06 PM
Wouldn't be too fair. The ToBBer's would own any build that doesn't reek of Gorgonzola. And, I think that the ONLY build that would score a win would be an ubercharger fighter facing off against a iron heart warblade.

Fighter 20:

Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Overpowering Assault, Combat Brute, Combat Reflexes, Robilair's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain). Warblade go cry.

playswithfire
2008-03-06, 05:30 PM
I'm considering running a martial tournament once I'm finished. This goes faster than PbP, though. Also, there are times when the forums just refuse to load on my computer. I'd hate to have people wait for me to even see their posts every night.

In due time... in due time. It might be fun to include more than just ToB characters. Like have a Tiger Claw adept face off against a barbarian, or a Desert Wind adept fight a dervish, etc.

I would be interested in such a tournament, both competing and/or helping to recruit/organize.

A simple 16-man bracket double elimination tournament could be run one of two ways:
1. The 14 martial adept champions

Desert Wind Swordsage; Devoted Spirit Crusader; Diamond Mind Warblade and Swordsage; Iron Heart Warblade; Setting Sun Swordsage; Shadow Hand Swordsage; Stone Dragon Crusader, Warblade and Swordsage; Tiger Claw Warblade and Swordsage; and White Raven Crusader and Warblade and Two Non-ToB classes probably Fighter and Barbarian

or one representative of each of the 9 schools and 7 non-ToB classes; Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Swashbuckler... and two more I can't think of right now (Maybe Archery Ranger and TWF Ranger and Mounted Paladin and Charging Smite Paladin)

Anyway, have enjoyed reading your summaries and look forward to the tournament

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 05:34 PM
Better yet, round robin tourney. Much better to evaluate if a style is suboptimal by default, or just fares poorly against X build.

Oh, and the last two should be cleric and CW samurai, hehe. Best and worst!

playswithfire
2008-03-06, 09:35 PM
Round robin is more accurate, though it does also involve more matches; not that that's a bad thing.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 10:02 PM
I'd say we should round Robin with either the 7 Martial or the 14 Martial.

I'm also in favor of either:

1) Standardizing our prep time/location. Or,
2) Developing a Random system to determine such things with a fair variety of options.

IE not fair would be, you start inside a Lava filled Sphere of Force of 20ft Radius. Because the then Shadow Hand Swordsage always wins or ties.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-06, 10:11 PM
Fighter 20:

Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Overpowering Assault, Combat Brute, Combat Reflexes, Robilair's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain). Warblade go cry.

Only problem, you really think a Warblade can't do this too?

Seriously, no way in hell the Fighter would get a chance to do anything. Warblade gets Diamond Mind.

Assuming, of course, he doesn't simply hit him with Strike of Perfect Clarity for +100 damage, try Time Stands Still, with full Power Attack.

Oh, and as for going first? Forget it. Moment of Alacrity, as a boost, +20 to initiative.

So, basically, greatsword wielding Warblade. Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes. Pouncing Charge to make full attack on charge. So what if the fighter gets counterattacks, they're not powered up, and the Warblade is in melee range already, so the Fighter can't pull it off. Not that he's going to be getting any attacks, since he never has a chance to activate Karmic Strike.

So yea, I don't think the Fighter has a ghost of a chance.

Having said that, I think after you get done with this, we could have a tournament wherin different people get to make the different characters. Someone might have some ideas about the style you don't which could change the outcome.

playswithfire
2008-03-06, 10:28 PM
I'd say we should round Robin with either the 7 Martial or the 14 Martial.

I'm also in favor of either:

1) Standardizing our prep time/location. Or,
2) Developing a Random system to determine such things with a fair variety of options.

IE not fair would be, you start inside a Lava filled Sphere of Force of 20ft Radius. Because the then Shadow Hand Swordsage always wins or ties.

Should probably shoot for 14 martial, but prioritize getting at least one representative of each discipline.

What I thought might be interesting in the couple minutes I thought about this (obviously up to whoever runs it) would be to allow a small amount of non-ToB multiclassing. Maybe, out of an ECL 20 build, up to 5 levels can be used for racial HD, LA and or non ToB base/prestige classes (no full casters), but you have to maintain an initiator level of at least 17. And obviously, it would have to fit the style. But why not let the Shadow Hand swordsage take some invisible blade levels? Or maybe a Devoted Spirit adept wants to dip Paladin to get into Ruby Knight Vindicator. Or someone wants to take a few fighter levels to get some feats.

But that may just be my enjoyment of multiclassing talking. It might get a bit complex.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-06, 10:44 PM
The fourth round is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4030368#post4030368).

The results are certainly interesting.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 10:56 PM
Only problem, you really think a Warblade can't do this too?

Seriously, no way in hell the Fighter would get a chance to do anything. Warblade gets Diamond Mind.

Assuming, of course, he doesn't simply hit him with Strike of Perfect Clarity for +100 damage, try Time Stands Still, with full Power Attack.

Oh, and as for going first? Forget it. Moment of Alacrity, as a boost, +20 to initiative.

So, basically, greatsword wielding Warblade. Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes. Pouncing Charge to make full attack on charge. So what if the fighter gets counterattacks, they're not powered up, and the Warblade is in melee range already, so the Fighter can't pull it off. Not that he's going to be getting any attacks, since he never has a chance to activate Karmic Strike.

So yea, I don't think the Fighter has a ghost of a chance.

Having said that, I think after you get done with this, we could have a tournament wherin different people get to make the different characters. Someone might have some ideas about the style you don't which could change the outcome.

Well the point was that I just named a number of feats greater then a Warblade could take. There are of course many other useful feats to add to that list.

And as for Initative, how about initiative starting with not being next to each other? How's that for crazy. And why not add Stand Still, now your Charging Martial can't even close to attack, much less actually hit.

+100 Damage to an attack means absolutely nothing when you are already doing 500. Dead is Dead. I never said a Warblade couldn't beat a fighter, but take note that this build would have won every single round of this tournament so far (of course, that's not saying much since these builds haven't been played to their optimum, not to mention being built that way.) I'm not the one claiming absolute superiority here, but lets add in, as a Fighter, Elusive Target. Now your full Power Attack does diddly squat damage. The point is that there are enough feats to build a Fighter that can smack around Warblades all day, even without cheese.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 11:05 PM
Only problem, you really think a Warblade can't do this too?

Seriously, no way in hell the Fighter would get a chance to do anything. Warblade gets Diamond Mind.

Assuming, of course, he doesn't simply hit him with Strike of Perfect Clarity for +100 damage, try Time Stands Still, with full Power Attack.
+100 damage is good, but not lethal. The Fighter has the PHB II level 16 alternate class feature and counterattacks for double damage (with Power Attack!). Full Power Attack doesn't help when your enemy has Elusive Target, as the Fighter can.


Oh, and as for going first? Forget it. Moment of Alacrity, as a boost, +20 to initiative. [quote]
It has to be your turn for you to activate that. The Fighter could well go first, since this doesn't affect the first initiative roll

[quote]So, basically, greatsword wielding Warblade. Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Karmic Strike + Combat Reflexes. Pouncing Charge to make full attack on charge. So what if the fighter gets counterattacks, they're not powered up, and the Warblade is in melee range already, so the Fighter can't pull it off. Not that he's going to be getting any attacks, since he never has a chance to activate Karmic Strike.
Furthermore, the Fighter can have a bigger reach (more feats to spare for, say, Aberration Blood + Aberrant Reach), which combined with Combat Reflexes (take AoOs even while flatfooted) and Stand Still (and maybe even Hold the Line, goodness forbid!) will keep the Warblade who's charging in from actually reaching him.

So yea, I don't think the Fighter has a ghost of a chance.
The Warblade isn't actually guaranteed to go first, as I explained. If he does, charging will get him stopped in his tracks. Once he's stopped, the Fighter (who can actually have Thicket of Blades with a pair of feats!) will smash him for double damage while in Robilar's Gambit stance, Power Attacking for a bunch, and 5'-step back. The Warblade has to close in again--which he can't do. Even if he manages (spent his 18th level feat on Martial Study: Shadow Stride, the move action one, say, or has one of those MIC items), when he attacks the Fighter, the Fighter counterattacks for double damage (and Knockback, if he's a Goliath!), or trips and disarms him.

You're overestimating the Warblade and underestimating the Fighter. The Fighter is still a bad class, but with all the splatbooks, you can make one into an unbeatable melee machine.

Bassetking
2008-03-06, 11:08 PM
I'll happily join this round-robin, provided I get to play as one of the Crusaders.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-06, 11:18 PM
Well if we are calling dibs, I want the Shadow Hand Swordsage, though that's just a preference, I'd play many other things.

Chronos
2008-03-07, 12:35 AM
Maybe, out of an ECL 20 build, up to 5 levels can be used for racial HD, LA and or non ToB base/prestige classes (no full casters), but you have to maintain an initiator level of at least 17.As I understand it, no more than 5 levels in non-ToB classes would guarantee IL 17, wouldn't it? Since you still get half IL progression from other classes, so you'd have 15 from the ToB class, and another 2 from other classes.


I'll happily join this round-robin, provided I get to play as one of the Crusaders.I strongly suspect that a certain trick involving a small unarmed strike will be disallowed, though.

playswithfire
2008-03-07, 12:45 AM
As I understand it, no more than 5 levels in non-ToB classes would guarantee IL 17, wouldn't it? Since you still get half IL progression from other classes, so you'd have 15 from the ToB class, and another 2 from other classes.


If you only use it for class levels, yes; but if you use some of that 5 level allotment for LA, you are no longer guaranteed IL 17

Anyway, it was just a thought.

Since it's effectively happening anyway, with CockroachTeaParty's permission, should we turn this thread into an organizing thread for this round robin tournament? Agree on the rules, let those following these bouts lay claim to some participants and then set up a recruitment thread, maybe.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-03-07, 01:14 AM
That would belong on the PbP section of the forums, I think.

If I get around to it I'll make a thread there. If anyone else takes the initiative, perhaps they could link to this thread, or round 4?

GammaPaladin
2008-03-07, 04:28 AM
I think if you're going to have a tournament, you need to do just ToB characters, but to be fair any school that overlaps between base classes should be run as both swordsage and warblade, or warblade and crusader, or... you get the idea.

Just for fun, when you're finished with that, a straight "Built the best character you can from the ToB classes and PrCs and face off" tourney might be entertaining. Warblade 14/Swordsage 1/Master of Nine 5 is always good ;)

namo
2008-03-07, 05:02 AM
The Warblade isn't actually guaranteed to go first, as I explained. If he does, charging will get him stopped in his tracks. Once he's stopped, the Fighter (who can actually have Thicket of Blades with a pair of feats!) will smash him for double damage while in Robilar's Gambit stance, Power Attacking for a bunch, and 5'-step back. The Warblade has to close in again--which he can't do. Even if he manages (spent his 18th level feat on Martial Study: Shadow Stride, the move action one, say, or has one of those MIC items), when he attacks the Fighter, the Fighter counterattacks for double damage (and Knockback, if he's a Goliath!), or trips and disarms him.


Meh, Covering Strike pwnz the AoOs Fighters.

Yes, I wrote pwnz for the first (and likely last) time in my life ! You have to adapt to your time.

Counter-intuitively the Swordsage, king of mobility, can bypass the lock but still suffers more than a Warblade or Crusader due to the lack of White Raven (Shadow Blink - Strike - Shadow Stride does mean he can avoid full-attack ; One with Shadow shouldn't work against a smart opponent).

GammaPaladin
2008-03-07, 05:14 AM
There's nothing at all stopping the Warblade from using a spiked chain himself, and negating the Fighter's reach advantage.

(Though personally I'd go with dual spinning swords)

Also, Swordsage/Master of Nine should be able to put it to bed handily.

And Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade would rip that fighter apart.