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Kioran
2008-03-06, 07:30 AM
Since times immemorial (okay, since Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson invented D&D), HP were a fact of gaming, often discussed but never clearly defined. Some of the elements purportedly included were physical Toughness, Willpower, Luck, skill at staying alive, evasive reflexes or divine handwavium. For quite some while, there have been different opinions about this, but....

With the advent of 4th Ed, it seems like those who favor "abstract HP (little physical toughness, much luck, skill and divine handwavium) have seemed to luck out - One can lose HP in spades, with all this still only manifesting as minor cuts - insignificant enough to be shaken off with little effort, or even completely thrown with not even a full nights rest. One could, perceivably, lose 45 HP without even being injured.......In fact, the rules go as far as characters not even sustaining significant damage until they are below 50%....
These kind of HP lend themselves to cinematic play, Hollywood action movies come to mind. They also make it possible for almost all heroic classes to fight long and hard, without being dependent on magic, and solve part of the "earthshattering blow dilemma" ("Strike of perfect clarity" + Hairpin = shattered brickwall. How does a human body withstand being hit with that?). On the downside, the old "practically unharmed/dead" duality is more evident and stronger than ever, and all this "look at my unblemished face and body, the result of 67 fierce fights in the last month" ridiculousness. It also creates problems with the effect of weapons - how are they different if they donīt hit 80% of the time?


However, 3rd Edition makes a strong case for Toughness-based HP. Classes which train their bodies, first and foremost, have more HP. Injury type poison just requires HP-loss. Same goes for wounding weapons or attacks. And finally, HP either Heal slowly or need to be restored magically (pre-ToB, that is - though I am of the firm opinion White Raven and Devoted Spirit are in large portions clearly SLAs or supernatural).

These kind of HP create a much grittier and more brutal world. Blood, guts and violence. The protagonists would be less like John McClane and more like Max Payne, staggering on despite grievous wounds or taking names and kicking ass to their last breath. They serve verisimilitude on some way by actually having people get injured, wounded or hurt, having less of the "unharmed/dead" duality. Characters who fight get hurt, and many attacks have observable effects on both your living and unliving environment. On the downside, this puts play or characters at the mercy of the Healbot/CLW-Wand, and may lead to ridiculous carnage like in Bleach (where characters routinely lose liters of blood and get cut to ribbons). One asks how people could survive this, much less stay in the fight.

Both have their advantages and drawbacks. Thereīs been and there are both "Abstractists" and "Woundists". Thereīs Max Payne or the Master Chief (Halo 2, not 1. Stamina System)

Well, I am firmly in the camp of the woundists, but how about you? And why?

Arbitrarity
2008-03-06, 07:45 AM
You can model it either way. The lack of penalties for being injured in D&D, IMHO, lead to the "minor cuts" abstraction, and you can model cure spells as restoring energy (/luck/fixing minor cuts, etc.) despite their name.
Whenever you describe deadly blows in D&D, they better damn well be deadly, or (at least my) players jump on you. This is likely why we started to use the VP/WP variant, at least for a while (though extensive modification was needed in some places still... how does diehard work?)

JBento
2008-03-06, 07:49 AM
Hmmm... I think that even in 3.X, hp were never meant to represent physical injury - or, at least, JUST physical injury. My Fighter16/PsyWar2/Lolth-touched character for instance, has over 250 hp. That means, that if hit by someone of average strength with a greatsword (which averages at 7 dmg per hit) it would require over 30 blows to kill him.

Try hitting someone with a greatsword 30 times - let's see how THEY fare.

It's my understanding that hp has always represented not only physical resilience (which comes from Constitution) but also your ability to defend yourself. It's not just wounds, but also the ability to turn a deadly strike into a glancing blow.

And since I KNOW someone is going to pull this one, lemme get it out of the way:

"It's just a flesh wound"

There, it's been done. :smallbiggrin:

Project_Mayhem
2008-03-06, 08:01 AM
From what I've seen of 4th so far, it looks like it supports a combination.

Your Hp represets your luck and dodgy-ness mixed with cool nicks and cuts until you're bloodied, in which case you've takin a deeper, more substantial wound. next stage is 0, when you take a potentially life threatening injury and pass out.

kamikasei
2008-03-06, 08:02 AM
However, 3rd Edition makes a strong case for Toughness-based HP. Classes which train their bodies, first and foremost, have more HP. Injury type poison just requires HP-loss. Same goes for wounding weapons or attacks. And finally, HP either Heal slowly or need to be restored magically

HP are clearly abstract, because they're abstract. They're a number. They don't track injury in any meaningful way. 3rd edition specifically states that they represent a combination of a whole bunch of factors abstracted into one scalar. Sure, if you actually get injured, you have to take HP damage to represent it. That doesn't mean you have to have been injured or injured badly every time you take HP damage. Taking "damage" is an abstract notion that can be represented however is most suitable at the time. If it's damage that puts you from low positives into negatives it's a life-threatening wound. If it puts you at -10 or below it's a mortal wound (if you were in low positives) or an outright evisceration (if you were in high positives and took a whole mess o' damage all at once). If it puts you from higher to lower positives then it's a nick, a scratch, a graze, or just a barely-dodged blow that leaves you scrambling to recover your balance.

Essentially nothing about the way HPs are lost or gained is at all realistic or concrete, simply because injury and healing can't be adequately represented by a single value going up or down.


(pre-ToB, that is - though I am of the firm opinion White Raven and Devoted Spirit are in large portions clearly SLAs or supernatural).

Were there any HP-recovering maneuvers in White Raven? I thought Devoted Spirit had the monopoly.

Kioran
2008-03-06, 08:21 AM
HP are clearly abstract, because they're abstract. They're a number. They don't track injury in any meaningful way. 3rd edition specifically states that they represent a combination of a whole bunch of factors abstracted into one scalar. Sure, if you actually get injured, you have to take HP damage to represent it. That doesn't mean you have to have been injured or injured badly every time you take HP damage. Taking "damage" is an abstract notion that can be represented however is most suitable at the time. If it's damage that puts you from low positives into negatives it's a life-threatening wound. If it puts you at -10 or below it's a mortal wound (if you were in low positives) or an outright evisceration (if you were in high positives and took a whole mess o' damage all at once). If it puts you from higher to lower positives then it's a nick, a scratch, a graze, or just a barely-dodged blow that leaves you scrambling to recover your balance.

Essentially nothing about the way HPs are lost or gained is at all realistic or concrete, simply because injury and healing can't be adequately represented by a single value going up or down.

Where does that leave injury poison or a wounding weapon? I know damage is relative, and the same 20 Damage that rends commoners apart represent only a shallow cut to the lvl 10 PC. However, any kind of HP loss means injury if wound-dependent effects of weapons apply. To go fully abstract, one would have to remove "wounding" or poison effects (which they might have done in 4th Edition) or explain with some "spirit weakening" mumbo-jumbo.


Were there any HP-recovering maneuvers in White Raven? I thought Devoted Spirit had the monopoly.

White Raven is another can of supernatural (+Actions or +extraordinarily large boni to checks), despite being incapable of Healing.

Matthew
2008-03-06, 08:31 AM
It also creates problems with the effect of weapons - how are they different if they donīt hit 80% of the time?

Isn't this really a comment on the users, not the weapons themselves?



Well, I am firmly in the camp of the woundists, but how about you? And why?
Since there is no meaningful impact from losing Hit Points on any other aspect of how a character functions and that a Fighter with 90 hit Points can lose 89 of them and then run a marathon, bake a cake or whatever with no perceivable problems derived from hit point loss, I'm going to have to say I consider Hit Points to not represent wounds of any significant sort.

The duality that this creates between fine/incapacitated is also compounded by Healing Spells (what are they healing if the Character is not wounded?), so I tend to rationalise Hit Points as Divine Favour/Luck/Skill in the form of Positive Energy, which helps to explain why Healing Spells restore Hit Points.

I'm okay with the idea that significant non incapacitating wounds (broken limbs, severed tendons, etc...) are not represented in D&D. The way I see it, the DM is always free to introduce them if he really wants to

KillianHawkeye
2008-03-06, 09:00 AM
Where does that leave injury poison or a wounding weapon? I know damage is relative, and the same 20 Damage that rends commoners apart represent only a shallow cut to the lvl 10 PC. However, any kind of HP loss means injury if wound-dependent effects of weapons apply. To go fully abstract, one would have to remove "wounding" or poison effects (which they might have done in 4th Edition) or explain with some "spirit weakening" mumbo-jumbo.

And here we have reached the point where realism & realistic description must be balanced against gameplay. On the one hand, the designers clearly were intent to maintain the hp system that previous editions of D&D had been using. Probably due to the simplicity, and because many players just accept it without questioning every little detail of every single damage roll. Then, when they got to designing poisons and wounding weapons and combining them with the existing rules for damage reduction, they realized that the character in question should only be affected if they are actually damaged by the attack. (Which of course, makes perfect sense until you start questioning the very nature of damage.) Now clearly, they wanted to include these things in the game without completely restructuring the way hp and damage are calculated, so you arrive at the current implementation.

So to sum up, you can just say that in the case of attacks that deal a special condition on a successful "injury", that any attack that deals hp damage results in, at minimum, a scratch rather than a "near miss". Are ya happy now?!

JBento
2008-03-06, 09:16 AM
I don't think a low damage roll is ever a miss. It is a hit. There is, however, a very big difference between a superficial graze (which would still allow the poison to seep through) and a open gash.

Wounding is the same. Both characters take damage at the same rate, though a high-hp character, may it be through great fortitude or sheer force of will, is capable of keeping focus and remain standing or effective despite the blood loss (in fact, Wounding ONLY makes sense if you abstract hp).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 09:25 AM
I'd also like to add my opinion here, on the subject of "What the HELL are cure X spells?" On that subject I prefer taking an approach similar to that seen in the Circle of Magic novels (Great series, BTW. How many times do you get to see a mage as a protagonist? And how many times is that mage a squishy wizard that can't use his powers?). There, there are two kinds of "healing" spells, as far as the books go. The first ones do not heal, per se. Rather, they recover fortitude and make the recipient feel stronger. Those are the cure X wounds spells. And then, there's a much more powerful spell, which requires that the caster transfers part of his health to a recipient, that REALLY heals people. That one is a Heal spell.

kamikasei
2008-03-06, 09:31 AM
Where does that leave injury poison or a wounding weapon? I know damage is relative, and the same 20 Damage that rends commoners apart represent only a shallow cut to the lvl 10 PC. However, any kind of HP loss means injury if wound-dependent effects of weapons apply. To go fully abstract, one would have to remove "wounding" or poison effects (which they might have done in 4th Edition) or explain with some "spirit weakening" mumbo-jumbo.

KillianHawkeye has more or less made my response. An injury poison which has to deal HP damage to take effect will constrain you to describe any damage dealt with it as "a nick, a scratch, or a graze" rather than a near miss. That's all. The same goes for wounding weapons, pretty much. If for some reason a given effect specifically says that it has to cause a real, physical injury, or is rationalized as working thus (eg: that feat that lets you prick yourself and use your blood as a material component), then it has to be described as causing injury, but that injury doesn't have to be in any way significant or have any impact on your hardiness.

Please understand that I'm not suggesting HP and damage are some purely abstract thing in the game like Life Points in YuGiOh or something. They are abstract in the metagame: a single quantity that does not necessarily represent the same thing at all times in character. Taking damage in the game absolutely can be described as suffering an injury. It just doesn't always have to be, and pretty much never has to be described as suffering serious injury, and it's probably best to avoid doing so because having characters repeatedly being seriously injured and healed back up is harder to suspend disbelief for that characters repeatedly avoiding serious injury by the skin of their teeth and coming away cut and bruised but still ready to fight.

JBento
2008-03-06, 09:32 AM
(Great series, BTW. How many times do you get to see a mage as a protagonist? And how many times is that mage a squishy wizard that can't use his powers?).

The first Discworld books. YAY for Rincewind :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 09:33 AM
Yes. Silly me. Never forget the greatest companion of the luggage!

Citizen Joe
2008-03-06, 09:41 AM
Well, you could simply apply a special effect based on individual weapons. So, if you (for example) roll the max on damage for a weapon, it sticks some sort of penalty on the target... like crippled limb or sucking chest wound. That way you still use the same HP pool, but there are additional afflictions and descriptors applied.

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 09:52 AM
I think the 3.0 system represents well the HP as actually how much wounds you can take.

For example, LOTR's first movie, when Boromir starts eating arrows, he still stands and fights, cleaving the orcs as easily as before, untill finnally he falls, unable to deliver a single more blow.

Then there is that Uruk-Hai leader, wich probably had more HP than the other Uruk-Hais, and thus gets an arm choped off, a dagger in his leg, a blade trough his chest and still keeps fighting hard.

This is my vision of D&D heros. The barbarian gets his guts pulled out, his skull is fractured while his flesh is burning and he roars "You really think that is gonna stop me?", because he's used to take his body to the limits.

The wizard, on the other hand, gets a direct hit in the head and is screaming for mercy, because he's not used to physicial punishment.

Rutee
2008-03-06, 10:02 AM
I use Luck, predominantly, from 1-10, then start mixing actual wounds in more often afterwards. But in my games, People at level 10 are getting to the point where they're getting to be detached from humanity's limits. And have buckets upon buckets of blood.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 10:04 AM
The nosebleeds should be scary for an epic guy.

Another good base to model a system of how HP works is the assault to the thieves' guild in Salvatore's The Halfling's gem.

kamikasei
2008-03-06, 10:20 AM
Then there is that Uruk-Hai leader, wich probably had more HP than the other Uruk-Hais, and thus gets an arm choped off, a dagger in his leg, a blade trough his chest and still keeps fighting hard.

He gets stabbed in the leg, pulls it out, and keeps going. That's HP. He gets his arm chopped off and stabbed through the chest as one move. That's dyin' fancy. He does not keep fighting hard once he loses the arm, he just doesn't act as if he feels the pain. I would characterize the fight from the loss of the limb onward as Aragorn reducing him to negatives and then finishing him off, or just killing him outright with an elaborate description.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 10:23 AM
Or Deathless frenzy. But "LOTR DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOODNIGHT!".

Charity
2008-03-06, 10:38 AM
If you reduce this to it's limits you could have a level 1 just staring out human mage with 7 hp and 8 str. He has no armour, he is attacked by his clone with a knife, this guy will have to bury it to the hilt (ie get max damage at least 3 times to render him unconcious, at 10th level about 25 times at 20th maybe 50 maybe more, it is going to have to be an abstraction in the main part.
However as has been already stated, wounding and poisoned weapons demand that flesh contact is made, so then it must be wounds right.

What we are experiancing here is wave-particle duality as written, HP's only works as both at the same time the dagger diffraction grating and the photoelectric effect of poison.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 10:47 AM
That felt like reading Timecube again, but with less of a feeling I was facing Cthulhu.

tyckspoon
2008-03-06, 10:54 AM
What we are experiancing here is wave-particle duality as written, HP's only works as both at the same time the dagger diffraction grating and the photoelectric effect of poison.

I've been awake far too long. This made sense.

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 10:56 AM
I use Luck, predominantly, from 1-10, then start mixing actual wounds in more often afterwards. But in my games, People at level 10 are getting to the point where they're getting to be detached from humanity's limits. And have buckets upon buckets of blood.

You did notice a barbarian under lv10 can go swim into lava whitout magical protection for a few seconds and come out alive, didn't you?

Rutee
2008-03-06, 11:00 AM
You did notice a barbarian under lv10 can go swim into lava whitout magical protection for a few seconds and come out alive, didn't you?

Yeah, but my players won't go swimming in lava, so it's a moot point for my game.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 11:03 AM
And you can always go "Hey, it's like putting your hand above a fire. You don't feel the first few moments!"

Saph
2008-03-06, 11:09 AM
I always thought the DMG explained HP quite well.

It describes HP as representing two things - ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one (abstract) and sheer toughness (wounding). So when your 12th-level Barbarian has taken 100 damage but is still up, it's partly because he's good at rolling with blows, sliding aside, and dodging just enough so that a hit that should have decapitated him leaves him with only a shallow slash instead.

But it's also because he's just that hard. He really is capable of taking a hit from a greatsword and shrugging it off, because high-level D&D characters are superhumanly tough and can survive things that would be instantly fatal for any normal human being. And they need to be, given the kinds of things they go up against.

- Saph

Roderick_BR
2008-03-06, 11:12 AM
I always used HP in the abstract sense.
I've been thinking some variations, like adding a wounding system, besides the HP, not replacing it. I played a game where you have a given ammount of HP that rarely changes, except for Constitution, and as you "level" up, you gain "Hero Points" that are like D&D's temporary Hit Points mechanic. While you still have Hero Points, your actual Hit Points remain untouched, and Hero Points can be easily regained, while Hit Points take from days to months to heal. That's how I'm treating my current D&D game. I already explained it to my players, and they think it'll be an interesting mechanic.
I'll be waiting to see how it works in 4E.

JBento
2008-03-06, 11:15 AM
Yeah, but my players won't go swimming in lava, so it's a moot point for my game.

What?!?! How do they train their Swim skill during Winter then? :smallwink:

Matthew
2008-03-06, 11:24 AM
You did notice a barbarian under lv10 can go swim into lava whitout magical protection for a few seconds and come out alive, didn't you?

There's really only one answer to that: Lava Rules - Fire and Brimstone! (http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1938)

Rutee
2008-03-06, 11:29 AM
What?!?! How do they train their Swim skill during Winter then? :smallwink:

An obligatory hot springs scene.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 11:31 AM
With an ultra quintuple subversion if the party face is male. FINALLY, a way to get kicks out of an insane bluff check!

Saph
2008-03-06, 11:33 AM
An obligatory hot springs scene.

Someone's been watching too many high school anime series. :P

- Saph

JBento
2008-03-06, 11:33 AM
An obligatory hot springs scene.

And, once again, fan service rears its head :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 11:35 AM
For some reason, this has made AC/DC's "What you do for money honey" spring to my memory. "What d'you do for money honey, where you get your kicks. What you do for money honey, where you get your licks, yo!"

JBento
2008-03-06, 11:38 AM
Apparently, honey goes flash herself in hotsprings for money :smallwink:

And as a Discworld fan, I feel obliged to say:

It would appear this thread has not only been derailed, but also has had the rails stolen and melted for scrap (possibly to make metal plates for Gimlet's Delicatessen)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 11:40 AM
Nay, not derailed. More like transformed into an airplane, hijacked, and crashed into hello.

Rutee
2008-03-06, 11:43 AM
With an ultra quintuple subversion if the party face is male. FINALLY, a way to get kicks out of an insane bluff check!

ITS A TRAP (http://gaygamer.net/images/bridget.jpg)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 11:51 AM
For that, I prefer the immortal Devine. The Trope Maker, if you will. Much better for "IT'S A TRAP!"-ing.

BTW, is that avatar based on anything? For some reason, it seems to evoke some distant memory (Well, two, actually, but the second one starts with "She's got a smile that, it seems to me, reminds me of childhood memories, when everything was as fresh as the bright blue sky..." and I know exactly where that comes from).

PS: Additionally, imagine a reversal of the classic hot springs scene. The guys decide to mindscrew the gals, and...well...imagine the shining's blood sea * 9000 and out of a nose.

Rutee
2008-03-06, 11:54 AM
It's Terra and Celes from FFVI making out, except that Celes is somewhat obscured by Terra. Mostly as a counterpoint to Tengu's Gauron x Sousuke avatar :smallbiggrin:


PS: Additionally, imagine a reversal of the classic hot springs scene. The guys decide to mindscrew the gals, and...well...imagine the shining's blood sea * 9000 and out of a nose.
Or just the women perving on the men. Though generally speaking, when I ran DnD, nobody had female characters but me, 'cause I played with men.

Still do play RPGs with men, but they're different ones who all roll women... XD

Roderick_BR
2008-03-06, 11:55 AM
With an ultra quintuple subversion if the party face is male. FINALLY, a way to get kicks out of an insane bluff check!
Hexa subversion if they are all half-orc barbarians... :smalleek:

On the other hand, and party with an all female half-orc barbarians group would be just as bad...

<_<

>_>

*rushes to get his drawing stuff*

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 12:02 PM
*Also rushes, but to his old Ollivetti to write HOW The Ace (of Spades) of an ongoing series of stories has a big laugh and manages to nab a picture of the ladies for his comrades by mindscrewing around.*


The possibilities, the possibilities....

The many youths to be corrupted and the many Yaoi fangirls to make Squee...

Hey, I feel really evil.

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 12:54 PM
It's Terra and Celes from FFVI making out, except that Celes is somewhat obscured by Terra. Mostly as a counterpoint to Tengu's Gauron x Sousuke avatar :smallbiggrin:


Or just the women perving on the men. Though generally speaking, when I ran DnD, nobody had female characters but me, 'cause I played with men.

Still do play RPGs with men, but they're different ones who all roll women... XD

Well, the one at left seemed like Terra to me, but the other one just seemed like a random male blonde with long air.

I always pictured Celes having more, I don't know, curled air.

At least I get the satisfaction of knowing you're as mad as I am. At least.

So, you never managed to persuade other girls to play with you?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 12:56 PM
Aaah, subtext that is probably unintended.


Now more seriously, good luck getting a girl into RPG's. Social pressures are big bitches. And sadly, too many people let themselves be dominated by them.

Rutee
2008-03-06, 01:05 PM
Huh? I don't really care. I just don't know any others around here who do. Met a few on that thar internet, but it's really not a big deal to me, when the guys aren't, you know, stereotypical nerds. Which is why I typically don't walk into physical stores very often :P

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 01:09 PM
Fortunately, that's changing. Mostly because Xanatos Gambits are becoming more practical, which gives nerds the chance to unwind.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-06, 02:10 PM
I personally can't see why people argue for hp as a representation of wounds, its clearly abstract nothing like this:http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/hp.jpg
or this:http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/hitpoints.jpg

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 02:16 PM
Is the downed link on purpose?

kamikasei
2008-03-06, 02:37 PM
I personally can't see why people argue for hp as a representation of wounds, its clearly abstract nothing like this:http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/hp.jpg
or this:http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/hitpoints.jpg

Pssst! Did you mean this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hp.html) and this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hitpoints.html)?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 02:41 PM
That officially earns you two a joint S+++++++(Loop), for thinking of those epic pics and bringing them forth.

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 02:52 PM
Pssst! Did you mean this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hp.html) and this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hitpoints.html)?

Ah, those are classics. I never grow bored of seeing them again.

Theodoxus
2008-03-06, 03:03 PM
IMO, HPs should be represented by a variation of the Wounds/Vitality matrix.

Basically, everyone has 6 HP (or wound points, if you prefer) and then everything else is piled on top.

Everytime you take wounding damage (from a sword of wounding, say) one point is deducted from the 6. Likewise, a successful crit will do normal damage to the 'vitality' and 1 point deducted from the 6.

Those 6 original wound points represent actual damage - probably could create a chart or something for effects. The rest, just grazes, bruises, minor cuts, etc.

It's not as deadly as the wounds/vitality from Star Wars D20 (or UA), as you can't be one shot on a nasty crit, but it does allow for limited abstraction.

Adding stasus effects to wounds taken would really make someone sit up and take notice that there character is getting really beat up (either through attrition and down to their last 6 hps or because their opponent is using nasty weapons and/or criting often.)

Theo

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-06, 03:08 PM
I'd disagree with the assertion in the OP that a "wounds" interpretation of HP makes for a "gritty, blood and guts" game. In my never particularly humble opinion it makes for a practically cartoony game.

You get stabbed, shot, thrown off a cliff, blown up in the face with a shotgun, have anvils dropped on your head and still keep right on running.

A game only qualifies as gritty in my book if a dagger in the gut has a non-zero chance of proving fatal to an experienced fighter.

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-06, 03:08 PM
Pssst! Did you mean this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hp.html) and this (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/hitpoints.html)?

Uh yeah, did they not show up? Why can only I see them...

kamikasei
2008-03-06, 03:14 PM
Uh yeah, did they not show up? Why can only I see them...

Both come up as "hotlinking disabled" images. Is it a site on which you have a login or some other privilege, perhaps?

Rutee
2008-03-06, 03:19 PM
I'd disagree with the assertion in the OP that a "wounds" interpretation of HP makes for a "gritty, blood and guts" game. In my never particularly humble opinion it makes for a practically cartoony game.

You get stabbed, shot, thrown off a cliff, blown up in the face with a shotgun, have anvils dropped on your head and still keep right on running.

A game only qualifies as gritty in my book if a dagger in the gut has a non-zero chance of proving fatal to an experienced fighter.

Gao, now I'm angry. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Angry Dome. Lousy Cable TV not showing my classic Looney Toons..

Kioran
2008-03-06, 04:50 PM
I'd disagree with the assertion in the OP that a "wounds" interpretation of HP makes for a "gritty, blood and guts" game. In my never particularly humble opinion it makes for a practically cartoony game.

You get stabbed, shot, thrown off a cliff, blown up in the face with a shotgun, have anvils dropped on your head and still keep right on running.

A game only qualifies as gritty in my book if a dagger in the gut has a non-zero chance of proving fatal to an experienced fighter.

Iīm not saying each hit with a Dagger is an automatic dagger to the gut. I am, however, saying that each loss of HP is commensurate with some sort of actual injury or damage - might be little more than a scratch because reflexes and divine handwavium protected you, but you will take damage. And even if itīs only cuts and bruises, these will take a little more than just two quick breaths or six hours to heal completely. If one is repeatedly taking HP-damage, one should be worse for the wear.

In a sense, I liked the Dragon Shamans Vigor Aura - itīs not perfect, but Iīd say that any healing that does not include prolonged rest, possibly with added treatment, or magic, can restore one to more than 50%. Thatīs were Mr. Payne (Finnish people do not only make good music, they also create awesome games) comes into play. As long as a hero isnīt dead, heīll keep going - in some fashion. This is represented by being able to regain up to 50% with morale, second wind, whatever. However, high spirits will not mend flesh. So the hero keeps going, despite being grievously wounded. And letīs face it, Max Payne 2 is teh awesome.

Thatīs why I am opposed to this entire "HP are totally abstract" thing. Actual wounds make for interesting and gritty play. Of course playing this "Oh, you took 15 Daggers to the gut, buried to their hilts....well, yeah......" is stupid, but I think "Oy vey, getting glued to the floor and immolated is such a hassle, I think I need hugs from my leader" is equally dumb.

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 04:56 PM
Gao, now I'm angry. If anyone needs me, I'll be in the Angry Dome. Lousy Cable TV not showing my classic Looney Toons..

By all means, go watch some anime.

As far as I remember, characters in Naruto get directly hit by fire, their bodies are used to breack walls, giant rocks fall over them....

And the worst thing that happens to them is some little bruises and scratches wich are healed by bandages.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-06, 05:07 PM
Iīm not saying each hit with a Dagger is an automatic dagger to the gut. I am, however, saying that each loss of HP is commensurate with some sort of actual injury or damage - might be little more than a scratch because reflexes and divine handwavium protected you, but you will take damage. And even if itīs only cuts and bruises, these will take a little more than just two quick breaths or six hours to heal completely. If one is repeatedly taking HP-damage, one should be worse for the wear.

In a sense, I liked the Dragon Shamans Vigor Aura - itīs not perfect, but Iīd say that any healing that does not include prolonged rest, possibly with added treatment, or magic, can restore one to more than 50%. Thatīs were Mr. Payne (Finnish people do not only make good music, they also create awesome games) comes into play. As long as a hero isnīt dead, heīll keep going - in some fashion. This is represented by being able to regain up to 50% with morale, second wind, whatever. However, high spirits will not mend flesh. So the hero keeps going, despite being grievously wounded. And letīs face it, Max Payne 2 is teh awesome.

Thatīs why I am opposed to this entire "HP are totally abstract" thing. Actual wounds make for interesting and gritty play. Of course playing this "Oh, you took 15 Daggers to the gut, buried to their hilts....well, yeah......" is stupid, but I think "Oy vey, getting glued to the floor and immolated is such a hassle, I think I need hugs from my leader" is equally dumb.


I THINK that this is part of what a cleric's per day abilities will be about. An encounter power might confer to you some of "Bahamut's unending courage and persistence", which will keep you fighting after a mean swordslash, but when a spawn of Tiamat ravages you with it's poisoned claws, destroying
your armor and the slowly proceeding to suck the remaining lifeblood out of you, Dracula style, that won't do. What'll happen is that the cleric will approach, see you are not yet dead (Though barely alive), and proceed to cast Heal, which instead of using healing surges, restores 10 HP per caster level.

Demented
2008-03-06, 05:33 PM
The thing that always confused me about the abstract perception of hitpoints as your ability to avoid damage is... What does that mean for AC? Because of Dex bonus, natural armor, Monk's wisdom bonus, and other values, AC claims to represent your ability to avoid being hit.

ShadowSiege
2008-03-06, 06:29 PM
The thing that always confused me about the abstract perception of hitpoints as your ability to avoid damage is... What does that mean for AC? Because of Dex bonus, natural armor, Monk's wisdom bonus, and other values, AC claims to represent your ability to avoid being hit.

AC is whether or not you get hurt at all, HP represents your ability to turn the wound from a vicious one to a minor scratch (fighter) or simply ignore it (barbarian). Hit die size represents the class' general aptitude for these things (or lack thereof such as in the case of wizards and sorcerers).The constitution modifier makes for another issue altogether.

As for all the small cuts and scratches, they get "healed" in 4e by the fact that they are minor injuries. They don't present any real hampering of the character, just as a scratch doesn't really hamper you in real life. At the moment they occur, they can be distracting and painful, but the next day chances are they'll be scabbed up, healing, and you'll pretty much ignore them. The healing surges would be the characters examining themselves after the battle, going "Oh, it wasn't that bad after all," and putting a bandaid on it. It's like an in-game retcon.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-06, 06:33 PM
The thing that always confused me about the abstract perception of hitpoints as your ability to avoid damage is... What does that mean for AC? Because of Dex bonus, natural armor, Monk's wisdom bonus, and other values, AC claims to represent your ability to avoid being hit.

You see, it's all perfectly simple.

An attack isn't an attack, it's an attack that has a chance of scoring a hit.

A hit isn't a hit, it's a hit that has a chance of causing damage.

Damage isn't damage, it's a reduction in your ability to defend yourself.

The amount by which a weapon reduces your ability to defend yourself depends on how hard you swing it (but swinging it harder makes it less likely to cause damage). Your ability to defend yourself is restored by the "Cure Wounds" spells.

How could anybody find that ambiguous.

Matthew
2008-03-06, 06:38 PM
Here's my take on that:



You see, it's all perfectly simple.

An attack isn't an attack, it's an attack that has a chance of scoring a hit.

A hit isn't a hit, it's a hit that has a chance of causing damage.

Damage isn't damage, it's a reduction in your Positive Energy.

The amount by which a weapon reduces your Positive Energy depends on the potential of the Character and Weapon to cause Damage. Positive Energy is restored by the "Cure Wounds" spells.

Charity
2008-03-06, 06:48 PM
Displaying the ultimate in narcissism

If you reduce this to it's limits you could have a level 1 just staring out human mage with 7 hp and 8 str. He has no armour, he is attacked by his clone with a knife, this guy will have to bury it to the hilt (ie get max damage at least 3 times to render him unconcious, at 10th level about 25 times at 20th maybe 50 maybe more, it is going to have to be an abstraction in the main part.
However as has been already stated, wounding and poisoned weapons demand that flesh contact is made, so then it must be wounds right.

What we are experiancing here is wave-particle duality as written, HP's only works as both at the same time the dagger diffraction grating and the photoelectric effect of poison.

it's really quite simple http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/8/b/a8bcf57abeb37d92d592516dfb79618d.png

kamikasei
2008-03-07, 05:55 AM
The thing that always confused me about the abstract perception of hitpoints as your ability to avoid damage is... What does that mean for AC? Because of Dex bonus, natural armor, Monk's wisdom bonus, and other values, AC claims to represent your ability to avoid being hit.

Some AC represents your ability to avoid being hit - that which goes towards touch AC, pretty much. Other AC represents your ability to render a hit ineffective by blocking it from vulnerable areas - what which goes to flat-footed AC. Natural armour, actual armour, shields, etc. don't make you less likely to be hit but they do mean that a hit is more likely to meet armour and clatter off without doing any damage. (Yes, this means that your armour is effectively indestructible.)

In principle you could keep track of whether a miss would have hit the target's touch AC but not total AC, and play that as a hit scored on the armour. If it wouldn't even have hit the touch AC, it's dodged all together. Of course, this is more hassle than there's much point in putting yourself through.

I had a thread on this a while back: all the different things that cause and prevent damage, and how they claim to work - armour, dodging, HP, con damage, DR, fast healing - it's a mess, really, but the only glaring oddity is how if a "hit" was actually just a near miss (but still dealt HP damage) could a healer know you need a cure sent your way?

AslanCross
2008-03-07, 06:07 AM
Where does that leave injury poison or a wounding weapon? I know damage is relative, and the same 20 Damage that rends commoners apart represent only a shallow cut to the lvl 10 PC. However, any kind of HP loss means injury if wound-dependent effects of weapons apply. To go fully abstract, one would have to remove "wounding" or poison effects (which they might have done in 4th Edition) or explain with some "spirit weakening" mumbo-jumbo.

Poison directly attacks one's biological functions (Your nervous system if it's DEX or STR, your general well-being if it's CON). If you're not healthy in combat (CON-wise), you are much less viable in combat, and thus lose HP.

Wounding does the same thing---as you lose blood, your biological functions become weaker. Your body's ability to transfer oxygen and other vital nutrients is literally dripping out of you at a very fast rate. As your CON goes down, you lose the ability to remain combat worthy very quickly, and thus lose HP.

Vikazc
2008-03-07, 06:26 AM
It always made sense to me in sort of an abstract way. If you think about it from a skill perspective, a pair of 1st level fighters with great swords and high strengths have fairly decent odds of one shotting each other, and for sure will get the kill in 2 hits, this says a lot about their skill, they are blunt and unsubtle in combat, going for the skill. Whereas if you compare that same 1st level fighter vs a 10th level fighter. They may both be using the same weapons, but the much more skilled 10th level fighter is providing no openings for a clear hit from his less skilled counterpart, whereas the 1st level cant even begin to stop that sudden scything blow to this chest that one shots him. Scale it up a step further to two 10th level fighters, both with 100ish hp, both in the realm of truely skilled, they arn't quite just nicking eachother, but most blows arn't landing solidly, theres a lot of deflection going on, so it takes 4-5 attacks to really bring one or the other down.

It even makes sense with a level 10 and a level 20, there is still a huge skill discrepancy there, but the level 10 fighter is not an unskilled novice, and is still going to manage to blunt the force of his opponents attacks and prevent an instant death barring crazy circumstances, (aka leaping charging barbarians)

Other classes scale up slower as represented by hit dice, but even a level 10 mage is going to know enough about throwing his staff in the way of a sword to not be easily killed by a warrior with a greatsword.

It makes sense to me that way anyway.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-03-07, 07:57 AM
I've always seen HP and working very similar to sub-dual damage, but more bloody.

Sub-dual damage is the quality of physical exhaustion you can take; ie, how much you can push yourself too, by carrying things too heavy or walking too much, or just being bashed on the head in a non-threatening way. When you hit 0 (or your current HP) you get knocked out, you too tired to do anything else, you literally fall down.

Hp works the same way however its being hit with more leathal things... but anyone whos been in a fight will tell you it hurts a lot more after the event than it does at the time, and you can keep going even with some major injuries.
I've once had the misfortune of being hit by a car after leaving a hospital, and still was able to walk over to my mum and pick her up (she got slightly hit by it... I got thrown =/ ). The thing is, although I was in a lot of pain, and was clearly madly injured (tore several tendons that time) and I was injured before (my shoulder had dislocated, hence me being in the hospital) I was still able to walk (well limp with speed) over to my mum and lift her up... because it wasn't truely critical, my HP covered it as it were.

However, I still cringed from the pain while getting up the day after (where as over walking or knocking your head on something is all but forgotten the next day), showing that HP damage heals slower than sub-dual and will effect you more even with a good nights rest.

My argument is that HP is just how much damage you can take but still function well enough to ignore it, and carry on pretty much as normal (although I tend to impose circumstance penalties in the last 10% of your health, and expect RP to reflect it), which is why people who are more tough can carry on for longer before falling down (whether it be imposed by weapons or by just pushing yourself too much), this is also seen quite well in how children will refuse to get back up after grazing their knees sometimes, to them, its a critical injury (although not to the point of death, regardless of how much they make out it is).

Oslecamo
2008-03-07, 08:26 AM
It always made sense to me in sort of an abstract way. If you think about it from a skill perspective, a pair of 1st level fighters with great swords and high strengths have fairly decent odds of one shotting each other, and for sure will get the kill in 2 hits, this says a lot about their skill, they are blunt and unsubtle in combat, going for the skill. Whereas if you compare that same 1st level fighter vs a 10th level fighter. They may both be using the same weapons, but the much more skilled 10th level fighter is providing no openings for a clear hit from his less skilled counterpart, whereas the 1st level cant even begin to stop that sudden scything blow to this chest that one shots him. Scale it up a step further to two 10th level fighters, both with 100ish hp, both in the realm of truely skilled, they arn't quite just nicking eachother, but most blows arn't landing solidly, theres a lot of deflection going on, so it takes 4-5 attacks to really bring one or the other down.

It even makes sense with a level 10 and a level 20, there is still a huge skill discrepancy there, but the level 10 fighter is not an unskilled novice, and is still going to manage to blunt the force of his opponents attacks and prevent an instant death barring crazy circumstances, (aka leaping charging barbarians)

Other classes scale up slower as represented by hit dice, but even a level 10 mage is going to know enough about throwing his staff in the way of a sword to not be easily killed by a warrior with a greatsword.

It makes sense to me that way anyway.

This also means that the lv10 fighter somehow can dodge and parry while sleeping, because the lv1 fighter who catches him in bed at night will still have trouble killing him in 1 hit.

Same if the lv 10 fighter is completely tied up and the fighter lv1 appears.

And how exactly the lv 10 fighter is blocking magic missiles? Or a disintrigate spell wich hits him?

The lv 10 fighter being actually able to take a blade to his guts and laugh at it explains a lot more than parrying and dodging.

I agree with the post above this, as there are historical records of soldiers who take very sever injuries in battle and still keep fighting, as theoretically the brain shuts off the pain because stoping and whining about your non incapacitating wound won't save you, but keep moving will.

The lv 10 fighter has taken so many blows he's used to pain, and unless you do something really drastic like cuting his head or burning him to the bones, he'll keep moving.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-03-07, 11:19 AM
This also means that the lv10 fighter somehow can dodge and parry while sleeping, because the lv1 fighter who catches him in bed at night will still have trouble killing him in 1 hit.

Cant they just do a coup de grace as they are sleeping?

JBento
2008-03-07, 11:39 AM
They can: But that's a critical hit (and isn't going to deal nearly enough damage to kill the 10th level Fighter) that will require a Fort save DC 10+dmg dealt. Assuming a greatsword and 15 Strength it's 4d6+6 dmg, or 20 dmg for a DC 30 Save. A 10th lvel Fighter has a base +7 Fort save and let's assume a 14+2 (Item) Constitution for antoher +3, plus, lessay a +2 Cloak of resistance, for a +12 Fortitude Save.

That means the 10th level Fighter needs an 18, or 15% chance of survival. From being hit with a greatsword. In the throat. REAAAAAAL well.

Matthew
2008-03-07, 11:42 AM
That's one of the reasons I prefer earlier editions. "Your character is killed in his sleep, no save."

Vikazc
2008-03-07, 01:16 PM
Is it that far fetched to assume that a 10th level fighter has better then average instincts and may twist just enough to have that 15% survival chance? I know for sure even if I was hog tied, if someone takes a shot at my neck Im sure as hell going to try to move out of the way and throw off their aim, it just reaction.

As for magic damage, its not unreasonable to think a more experienced charecter of any sort can shrug off the effects of magic more effectively then weaker ones.

Oslecamo
2008-03-07, 01:22 PM
They can: But that's a critical hit (and isn't going to deal nearly enough damage to kill the 10th level Fighter) that will require a Fort save DC 10+dmg dealt. Assuming a greatsword and 15 Strength it's 4d6+6 dmg, or 20 dmg for a DC 30 Save. A 10th lvel Fighter has a base +7 Fort save and let's assume a 14+2 (Item) Constitution for antoher +3, plus, lessay a +2 Cloak of resistance, for a +12 Fortitude Save.

That means the 10th level Fighter needs an 18, or 15% chance of survival. From being hit with a greatsword. In the throat. REAAAAAAL well.

Still, it is strange that 15% of the times, that sleeping lv10 fighter will get out of the bed, with a big bleeding hole in his neck, and probably kick the lv1 fighter's ass, as 20 damage isn't that much from his total hit points.

Reaper_Monkey
2008-03-07, 04:17 PM
Still, it is strange that 15% of the times, that sleeping lv10 fighter will get out of the bed, with a big bleeding hole in his neck, and probably kick the lv1 fighter's ass, as 20 damage isn't that much from his total hit points.

True, but then again the lv1 fighter mightve just been stupid enough to miss the import part of the neck (you know, the... main... bit... of it?)... okay, well maybe they just have really quickly clotting blood and the hole isnt that big?

horseboy
2008-03-07, 04:31 PM
I'm sorry, but D&D combat is about as "gritty" as flag football. If you want gritty combat you should be playing Harn, or Rolemaster or some of the incarnations of GURPS or Chaosium. D&D does not deliver.

Oslecamo
2008-03-07, 05:08 PM
I'm sorry, but D&D combat is about as "gritty" as flag football. If you want gritty combat you should be playing Harn, or Rolemaster or some of the incarnations of GURPS or Chaosium. D&D does not deliver.


We have monsters wich eat the brains of people while they are still alive.

There are several monsters wich can infect players with worms wich bury trough their internal organs eating them from inside out.

We have zombies who rip off the skin of the players.

We have zombies wich eat the bones of the players while the players are fighting.

We have mummies who make you decay away in dust in a matter of minutes.

And only in the 1st situation does the player gets a swift mercifull death.

Now I don't know what gritty stands for, but if you meant to say that D&D combat is not violent and full of injury, then something is wrong.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 05:16 PM
Now I don't know what gritty stands for, but if you meant to say that D&D combat is not violent and full of injury, then something is wrong.
Is there any blood? Nope.
Is there any permanent damage? Nope.
Do high level monsters have to be given special abilities to actually make them dangerous because the mechanics don't support challenging combat? Yup. Ever wonder why such monsters had to be made just to challenge the players?

Neon Knight
2008-03-07, 05:28 PM
Of course, "gritty" is a perception, not a concrete reality.

Oslecamo
2008-03-07, 06:41 PM
Is there any blood? Nope.
Is there any permanent damage? Nope.
Do high level monsters have to be given special abilities to actually make them dangerous because the mechanics don't support challenging combat? Yup. Ever wonder why such monsters had to be made just to challenge the players?

There is blood. Vampires and plenty of other monsters will suck it. Also wounding weapons wich make you bleed to the death.

There is also plenty of ways of dealing permanent damage, but most DMs don't use them because it sucks for the players.

Monsters who can gouge out the player's eyes, plus several "you die and can't be ressurected by any means" effects.

Are you sure you played 3.5?

Rutee
2008-03-07, 06:57 PM
There is also plenty of ways of dealing permanent damage, but most DMs don't use them because it sucks for the players.

What are they? I genuinely can't think of anything that REgenerate, Miracle, and Greater Restoration won't handle

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-07, 07:18 PM
There is blood. Vampires and plenty of other monsters will suck it. Also wounding weapons wich make you bleed to the death.


I think when "bleeding" is can be caused only by a specific magical effect it's a good sign that you are a long way from "gritty".

horseboy
2008-03-07, 07:41 PM
Are you sure you played 3.5?Yup, and I've played systems where 4' of cold, naked steel were actually dangerous, and not just 2d6 damage.

Thane of Fife
2008-03-07, 08:09 PM
What are they? I genuinely can't think of anything that REgenerate, Miracle, and Greater Restoration won't handle

While I'm not going to argue that D&D combat is gritty, I think your argument is a bit flawed here. You're arguing that these effects aren't frightening to characters with seventh level magic. Not much is frightening at that point - heck, you can heal death before you can cast any of these spells.

That's like saying that characters never need to worry about gold, because they can wish for it. Well sure, high-level characters can. Before that, it's something you have to watch out for.

Rutee
2008-03-07, 10:10 PM
While I'm not going to argue that D&D combat is gritty, I think your argument is a bit flawed here. You're arguing that these effects aren't frightening to characters with seventh level magic. Not much is frightening at that point - heck, you can heal death before you can cast any of these spells.

That's like saying that characters never need to worry about gold, because they can wish for it. Well sure, high-level characters can. Before that, it's something you have to watch out for.

Well, he specifically stated there were irreversible effects. I know about a few "Can't resurrect from this" deaths, but I have no idea about other ones.

Hecore
2008-03-08, 03:06 AM
IMO, HPs should be represented by a variation of the Wounds/Vitality matrix.

Basically, everyone has 6 HP (or wound points, if you prefer) and then everything else is piled on top.

Everytime you take wounding damage (from a sword of wounding, say) one point is deducted from the 6. Likewise, a successful crit will do normal damage to the 'vitality' and 1 point deducted from the 6.

That system is pretty much what the SaGa series of videogames use. You have HP which act like a shield for your LP (Life Points). You can still take LP damage even with full HP, but it's somewhat unlikely. If you have no HP then most attacks begin to take LP. HP heals after every battle, and is fairly easy to recover, but LP is very hard to restore - and when LP is gone you die.

I personally think that if the system were adapted it would make damage less of an abstract concept.

Rutee
2008-03-08, 03:23 AM
I love SaGa games dearly, but it'd still be very abstract. Life Points are your vital energy, sure, but what are Hit Points still? The ability to guard that vital energy? If that's so, how is my vital energy being thwacked while I still have hit points? What happens if I'm Surprise Attacked?

Mind, if you have actual answers, that's fine too >.>

Hecore
2008-03-08, 04:48 AM
I was thinking of Hit Points as the ability to guard your Life Points. It'd have to be rolled up into a bunch of different things, but HP would be a characters ability to dodge blows, roll with the punches, their will to live, ect. Low (or no) HP represents a character that is exhausted, has no hope against overwhelming odds, or has been ham stringed in some fashion (for example: their shield arm has been battered so many times they can no longer effectively stop attacks).

Once they are in this state it's easy, or at least easier, to inflict permanent damage to the character in question. They may still block attacks or dive out of the way, but they cannot perform this function well. A character that loses LP even when their HP is high can represent anything from a well-timed blow, striking a character where they are unable to defend, or even a sneak attack.

Obviously under this system the healing spells would be renamed. Instead of curing wounds they would be fluffed to boost morale or perk up a weary PC. True wound restoration would be very rare, but it would restore LP instead of HP.

The reason I think this system is clearer is that it delineates between a critical wound and a glancing blow. Players who decide to take lava baths , or example, lost a chunk of LP instead of 'just' HP (of course you'd take HP as well, seeing as the horrible burns and scarring are bound to make a character vulnerable).

Kioran
2008-03-08, 06:44 AM
Poison directly attacks one's biological functions (Your nervous system if it's DEX or STR, your general well-being if it's CON). If you're not healthy in combat (CON-wise), you are much less viable in combat, and thus lose HP.

Wounding does the same thing---as you lose blood, your biological functions become weaker. Your body's ability to transfer oxygen and other vital nutrients is literally dripping out of you at a very fast rate. As your CON goes down, you lose the ability to remain combat worthy very quickly, and thus lose HP.

Wasnīt questioning this. All the effects described by you, however, demand that the poison entered the bloodstream/the blade actually cut the skin/whatever for bleeding to occur, poison to accumulate in the liver or what have you. In this case you lose HP because youīre actually physically harmed and not because youīre winded or down on your luck.

I think we can all agree that, for D&D, a HP system instead of one that actually tries to simulate wounds, is better suited. A system that actually simulates getting hurt is very simulationist, and would need more details in other areas as well, to the point were itīs distinctly not D&D anymore.
I just donīt like totally bloodless HP-loss, like 4th Ed advocates.

tyckspoon
2008-03-08, 09:46 PM
I just donīt like totally bloodless HP-loss, like 4th Ed advocates.

Odd statement. 4E is actually adding a status condition at half HP that gives a nod to the idea of HP reduction actually involving some tangible change to a character's condition. Having characters be 'bloodied' at half HP would seem to be much less 'bloodless' than 3E's system of HP loss meaning absolutely *nothing* until you hit 0.

Rutee
2008-03-08, 10:30 PM
I just donīt like totally bloodless HP-loss, like 4th Ed advocates.

You mean like third ed? Blood loss and bleeding are extremely specific side effects of specific abilities. You don't lose blood unless a vamp or stirge or something is specifically sucking it.



Once they are in this state it's easy, or at least easier, to inflict permanent damage to the character in question. They may still block attacks or dive out of the way, but they cannot perform this function well. A character that loses LP even when their HP is high can represent anything from a well-timed blow, striking a character where they are unable to defend, or even a sneak attack.
So yes, wound points. Except unusually, the video game system predates the tabletop one. So I guess LP is more fitting after all.


By all means, go watch some anime.

As far as I remember, characters in Naruto get directly hit by fire, their bodies are used to breack walls, giant rocks fall over them....

And the worst thing that happens to them is some little bruises and scratches wich are healed by bandages.
That wouldn't be a change in the status quo for me. I specifically said looney toons because I was looking for it to be played for laughs. Maybe a game of Toon would suffice though.

Orzel
2008-03-08, 11:02 PM
My own homebrew uses the idea of Story Points. SP is your the believable chance of you staying in the story. The more story points you have, the higher your chance of staying in the story. At a certain amount of negative story point, you are written out the story. You can be written out by dying, leaving the area (never to return), "going to jail forever", becoming a useless NPC, or fail at life and quit.

When someone deal damage with a weapon, the believable chance of you staying in the story lowers because we assume that eventually you'll take a fatal wound and die. You can also badmouth someone into submissive surrender where they are so depressed to affect anyone. The damage of your weapon, taunt, or threat represent how likely a the attack will take you out the story. If you hit the average guy wit a sword or a doom-filled taunt, he'll die or leave the city. Do the same to the title hero and he dodges you or makes an anime "I can't lose" speech. We used different DRs and damage multipliers for different attack. My knight is currently bleeding to death on the floor with 100 HP why my cousin's ogre is at full health but in the fetal position at -10 and DR 50/weapons. Since his ogre is at full health but massively depressed, it's easier to make him kill himself than to actually kill him.

Kioran
2008-03-09, 12:18 PM
Odd statement. 4E is actually adding a status condition at half HP that gives a nod to the idea of HP reduction actually involving some tangible change to a character's condition. Having characters be 'bloodied' at half HP would seem to be much less 'bloodless' than 3E's system of HP loss meaning absolutely *nothing* until you hit 0.

Well, in 3rd. Edition, one still needs days of rest or magic to recuperate. Weapons are assumed to penetrate skin on a hit, since they can have poison applied. The Blood mage can animate an enemies blood if that enemy has lost hit points. Examples are copious, in and outside of core. HP-loss is bloody.

In 4th Ed, an inspiring speech and a hug can cure you from "bloodied" or "dying" to full, and barring that, a 6-hours rest, no questions asked. This does not imply serious wounds to me........

horseboy
2008-03-09, 04:10 PM
In 4th Ed, an inspiring speech and a hug can cure you from "bloodied" or "dying" to full, and barring that, a 6-hours rest, no questions asked. This does not imply serious wounds to me........Nor does not bleeding out or any penalties to actions from damage imply serious wounds to me. It's all in perspective.

Pauwel
2008-03-09, 04:38 PM
I really don't get why anyone would think that being able to take huge amounts of punishment with absolutely no effects before you pass out being somehow more gritty than considering HP to be luck/dodging/whatever. The sudden jump from "completely unharmed" to "out cold" is the same in both interpretations, because even if you tell yourself that the hit from a sword actually wounded you, the wound has no effect whatsoever. Hell, it can't even stun you momentarily.

In my opinion, hit points have never made sense, no matter which way you interpret it. The best interpretation is that hit points are a measure of your ability to turn a serious wound into a glancing one; essentially Vitality/Wound points. It's still silly, in part because hit points are used universally (how can you dodge a crushing wall?) and in part because of the aforementioned sudden jump from being almost unscathed to being knocked out cold.
I'll just stick to Toughness saves and Wound systems, thank you.

Jerthanis
2008-03-09, 05:25 PM
My problem with the "Tiny cuts" idea is that it's not any more realistic. I was cooking the other day when I cut my finger sort of badly. It was a little more than an inch long, but not terribly deep. I had to sit down and hold my hand still while applying pressure with some gauze for about 15 minutes to get it to stop bleeding. If I had been gripping a sword, fighting at full capacity, and jumping around, the cut wouldn't have closed and I might've lost enough blood to become weakened and dizzy.

So to me, HP only ever makes sense as an abstraction, because a sword through your gut means you will go into shock. A mace in the head means your skull will be caved in. HP loss meaning your arm is numb from parrying blows, and your will has faltered from losing your footing is the only thing that will ever make sense to me.

Rutee
2008-03-09, 05:34 PM
Nor does not bleeding out or any penalties to actions from damage imply serious wounds to me. It's all in perspective.

Horseboy is, of course, correct. DnD does not treat wounds in anything vaguely approaching "Gritty". Ever.

Job
2008-03-10, 12:10 AM
I’ve always found the Hp abstraction handy, especially in d20 modern games.

Me: You leap behind cover narrowly dodging the auto-fire,
Player: Woot!
Me: and take 10 damage.
Player: …

Demented
2008-03-10, 01:30 AM
Story Points sound awesome!
Doesn't quite fit for a tactical rpg, and they're probably the bane of all recurring characters, but still awesome.


My problem with the "Tiny cuts" idea is that it's not any more realistic. I was cooking the other day when I cut my finger sort of badly. It was a little more than an inch long, but not terribly deep. I had to sit down and hold my hand still while applying pressure with some gauze for about 15 minutes to get it to stop bleeding. If I had been gripping a sword, fighting at full capacity, and jumping around, the cut wouldn't have closed and I might've lost enough blood to become weakened and dizzy.

In D&D, you can only normally bleed to death from a wound that leaves you helpless on the ground. So clearly, what you took wasn't hitpoint damage at all! :smallbiggrin: And besides... Once you've bled enough from your finger, the arteries will constrict. Your finger will go numb, but you won't bleed to death unless you're on thinning agents or have a clotting disorder. Just ask this guy. (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/07/0724_030724_AronRalston.html)

The point of the hitpoints=health idea isn't that it's more realistic, but that it conveys the non-realistic nature of hitpoints (and the entire game) a little more quickly. That, and it meshes with the rest of the game more easily. A lot of feats and abilities rely on the assumption that contact is made when you get hit. With hitpoints=luck, a lot of the feats and abilities end up being more arbitrary than hitpoints themselves. All for the sake of portraying characters' vulnerability as a hat-tip to realism.

Not to mention, sometimes the explanations get weird regardless: A guy is immersed in lava. Does his flesh melt off down to the muscle before he jumps out happily, or is he encased in a millimeter-thick layer of air that lets him jump out without being so much as singed at the expense of some divine favor? (It's a trick question. He burns to ash, no dice-rolling. Right?)