How about this villain team, the Order of Perfection. Take: II

[Agrippa]

Out of sheer curiosity and to read your opinions on the matter, I have decided to compile and post a villainous league from multiple fictional universes. To this end I have developed the group I dub, The Order of Perfection. They could cause terror through out the multiverse, provided they don't kill each other in the first five minutes.

Supreme Leader and True Fiendish Overlord (Over Boss)-Asmodeus (D&D especially in Dicefreaks Gates of Hell)
Infernal Patron: Himself Alignment: Lawful Evil
Tyranny, stagnation and sorrow, that is what the supreme Lord of Hell spreads in his wake. Being the being of Pure Law and Pure Evil combined has his unholy part to play in almost forms of oppressive cruelty throughout the multiverse. Because of his cosmic and psuedo-divine nature Asmodeus acts as a priest and prophet of himself and universal head of his own church. Along with his extreme intellect, personal magnetism and insights into the underlying philosophical ideals of the universe Asmodeus has an extensive network of followers. This would include mortal and fellow devils, including the other Lords of the Nine. Just to make matters worse for Aang, his friends and any off worlders (like Commander Sam Vimes, Eduard and Alfonse Elric or Malcolm Reynolds) Asmodeus can raise the dead. Admiral Zhao is dead, long live Admiral Zhao! Asmodeus is in fact the king and cosmic patron of all Lawful Evil Magnificent Bastards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.MagnificentBastard) and makes old Xanatos look like an amature.

Junior League Fiendish Overlord (Boss type)-Narauku (InuYasha)
Infernal Patron: Asmodeus (grudgingly) Alignment: Lawful Evil
As a powerful oni, Narauku has achieved almost god-like power and has control over mortal and demonic forces. He's highly manipulative and always comes up with some sort of contingency plan just incase he should lose. Narauku is brutal, ruthless and seeks to subjugate others while striving for inner perfection, like many others in this group.

Svengalist (Boss type)-The Master (Doctor Who)
Infernal Patron: Dispater Alignment: Neutral Evil (with slight tendancies towards Law)
Among the last of the two remaining Time Lords, the Master is an undeniable genius with the technological expertise of Galifrey. Of course the Master is also a demented lunatic and mass murderer, but that shouldn't stop him from working with this group. He is a supreme manipulator whose ultimate goal is to crush the wills of "lesser" sentient beings in the universe and bend them to his will.

Cavalry General (Boss type)-Koschei the Deathless (Russian mythology)
Infernal Patron: Bael Alignment: Neutral Evil (with slight tendancies towards Law)
In Russian legend there was a great bandit-king by the name of Koschei. In addition he was a powerful wizard who achieved "immortality" by removing his heart and enchanting an egg so that it would hold his soul, then inserting the egg inside of duck. The duck was inserted inside of a hare, which was placed inside a small basket, held in an iron chest. The iron chest is underneath a green moss-covered oak tree, upon an island within Koschei's palace. He also had a small army of both human and non-human bandits who were fanatically loyal to him.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Ivan_Bilibin_Koshchey.jpg

Space Admiral (Boss type)-Admiral Thrawn (Star Wars canon)
Infernal Patron: Bael Alignment: Lawful Neutral (with moderate tendancies towards Evil)
Admiral Thrawn is both a millitary genious and an expert in art and culture. He uses his studies of his enemies art and general culture to determine their basic psychology and turn it against them or use that knowledge to defend his own or other Order members troops in battle. Unlike some fellow Order members, Thrawn has the good sense not to waste his troops on pointless suicide missions. This of course gives Grand Admiral Thrawn the distiniction of being one of the few mostly sane members of the Order of Perfection.

Light Infantry (Boss type)-Azula (Avatar: the Last Airbender)
Infernal Patron: Bael Alignment: Lawful Evil
Cruel twisted and sadistic as all of Hell, Azula can still inspire loyalty and courage in her troops and combine that with their fear of disobeying her orders or disappointing her in the slightest. In essence Azula is a state sponsored and supporting psychopath. That and she's as close to Vile as you can get on children's television. Perfect for this Lawful Evil group.

Scientist-Dalek Sec (Doctor Who)
Infernal Patron: Levithian Alignment: Lawful Evil
Due to Dalek Sec's membership in the Cult of Skaro, he (for lack of a better term) is one of the few Daleks who would consider joining forces with anyone else in this group. He is a researcher and can develop numerous genetic mutations and enhancements for the other Order members or their armies. This would be in addition to various magic/power-augmenting devices for his troops and those of his fellow Order members.

Big Gun #1-Maleficant (Disney's version of Sleeping Beauty)
Infernal Patron: Lilith Alignment: Lawful Evil
Think about it. She's a powerful sorceress who can lay waste to an entire country by her self while in dragon form if she pet her mind into it. Maleficaent is also capable of producing and using dreadful curses that can only be mitigated by opposing magic, not nullified.

Big Gun #2-The Fairy Godmother (Shrek 2)
Infernal Patron: Dispater Alignment: Lawful Evil
She's an arcane spellcasting mobster with potentially lethal magic. The Fairy Godmother also brings along her own Mafia-like foot solders and snipers. In my opinion she fits this list perfectly due to her ambition and will to dominate.

Muscle #1-Carcer (Discworld)
Infernal Patron: Levithian Alignment: Neutral Evil
Do I really need to explain Carcer to you? True, Carcer is most likely Neutral Evil, but he can be turned towards Law.

Muscle #2-The Operative (Serenity)
Infernal Patron: Beelzebub Alignment: Lawful Evil
A ruthless and brutal Alliance trained killer, the Operative believes that his evil actions (he admits that both he and his actions are evil) will lead to a grand new future, for all but him and those whom he also deems evil. He prefers to kill his enemies or victims using a sword instead a gun, he finds it more honorable to do so. The only way to turn the Operative away from his support of the Order of Perfection, is to convince him that his ideology is flawed, or failing that, his current allies are unable or unwilling to help him achieve his goals.

Muscle #3-Davy Jones (Pirates of the Carribean: Dead Man's Chest and At World's End)
Infernal Patron: Levithian Alignment: Neutral Evil (with strong tendancies towards Law)
Cursed to wonder the seas as a hideous monster for shirking his responsibilities as boatman to the souls of dead sailors to their reward, Davy Jones is a cruel and vicious pirate captain. He also literally controls the waters his ship The Flying Dutchman sails upon, and is skilled at ambushes and surprise attacks on the open seas. Jones is brutal and rules his ship with an iron hand, or lobster claw, and has even gotten many of his crew to become as sadistic as he is. In addition, by raising and dropping the onboard "hammer", Davy Jones can summon the Kraken from the deepsending it to terrorize and kill Jones victims.

Hit Man #1-Mr. Teatime (Discworld)
Infernal Patron: Mephistopheles Alignment: Neutral Evil
He personally killed the Hogfather and can perform feats of physical skill normally impossible without magic. At the same time, he's highly intelligent and certifiably insane.

Hit Man #2-Findthee Swing (Discworld)
Infernal Patron: Beelzebub Alignment: Lawful Evil
Trained by the Assassins Guild and having serving the late chief of the Unmentionables, Swing is known for his fanaticism, sadistic behavior, combat skills and keen intellect. Since his goal is societal "perfection" Swing fits the Order of Perfection like a glove.

Hit Man #3-Ras al-Ghul (Batman)
Infernal Patron: Beelzebub. See Ozymandais Alignment: Lawful Evil
Leader of the League of Shadows, Ras possess a fanatically loyal army and is a master of stealth as well as armed and unarmed combat. He can cooly and calmly worm he way into society and tear it down to rebuild a new, and in his eyes, "pure" state. According to the film Batman Begins, Ras was Batman's mentor and taught the Dark Kinght everything he knows. Yes, he might be able to out-Batman Batman. Al-Ghul is an utter fanatic and cannot be swayed from his path.

Master of Poisons and Disease- "Dr. Thraxx" (Command & Conquer: Generals-Zero Hour)
Infernal Patron: Mephistopheles Alignment: Lawful Evil
As an expert on bio-weapons and poisons, "Dr.Thraxx" would be most skilled at modifying and employing diseases like smallpox and anthrax. This would cause widespread death and panic in addition to removing or crippling any support or aid the heroes could find. Dr. Thraxx would also gain from Dalek Sec's scientific knowledge and expertise.

The Bankroller-David Xanatos (Disney's Gargoyles)
Infernal Patron: Dispater or Mammon Alignment: Lawful Evil
Due to his years as both a business man and scientist David Xanatos has acumulated a vast fortune which he can and most likely will use to bankroll the Order. He's also a master manipulator and scientist in his own right.

Seducteress and Sabatour-Lust (Full Metal Alchemist)
Infernal Patron: Lilith Alignment: Neutral Evil (with slight tendencies towards Law)
Modeled after the sin she was named for, Lust is a statuesque and cunning beauty of a woman. That said, Lust is viscious, cruel and not even really alive. She's very good at gaining and missusing the confidence of others long before they realize that she was only using them. She would have to be reigned by the other Order members to make sure she doesn't stab them in the back though.

Deputy Chessmaster, Manipulator, Assassin, Bankroller and Public Relations-Adrian Veidt A.K.A. Ozymandias (Watchmen) Alignment: Lawful Evil
Infernal Patron: Beelzebub. Besides, they share the same villain archetypes.
Born Adrian Veidt, Ozymandias is an intelligent, strong, well-coordinated, handsome and generaly well-adjusted man. Unfortunately for the Protectors, Adrian Veidt is also delusional, utterly ruthless, self-righteous and egomaniacal, believing himself to be the reincarnated soul of Ramses the Great, hence the name Ozymandias. Veidt/Ozymandias also has an extended business "empire", which he can use to fund the Order in addition to physical training to such a point that Adrian can deflect of catch bullets bare-handed.

Bankroller and Chessmaster- Daniel Lindermann (Heroes)
Infernal Patron: Beelzebub Alignment: Lawful Evil
Ruthless, brutal, intelligent and utterly convinced of the righteousness of his actions, Linderman would be a great asset to the Order. Along with his Company Daniel Linderman can also supply his own vast wealth and personal and buisness resources. Not to mention the fact he can heal with a touch. Yes, he can heal!

Special Forces Commander and Spy (Boss type)-Sosuke Aizen (Bleach)
Infernal Patron: Asmodeus Alignment: Lawful Evil
On top of being a Magnificent Bastard who taught Xanatos everything he knows, Aizen's power, leadership, and armed forces are legendary. He rarely reveals all his power at once, however, and he is very likely to try taking over- as even Asmodeus is susceptible to his unbelievably great hypnotic power-*,but these risks are offset by benefits, as his powers are godlike, his planning and deceptability skills are incredible, and individual members of his small army could take out several battalions of modern soldiers. He is incredibly ambitious, and, if one dying arrancar is to be believed, completely fearless. He's actually a lot stronger than most of the others on this list, but he'd be quite happy with his current position-for now, anyway.

*This part is hyperbole. Sosuke's good, but he's not that good. Even Granny Weatherwax can't stare down Asmodeus.

What place should this group attack first? Should they send Teatime, Carcer, the Operative, Ozymandais and al-Ghul to capture Mysdia or take the Soul Society?

[Sixscimitars]

Yay! Finally! Also, you're right. It probably wouldn't work on him, but it would work on everyone else. But thanks for finally putting up Aizen, anyway.
EDIT: I naturally assumed, that, since it works on absolutely everyone who has ever seen his sword, and, according to him, can't be resisted and can be activated at any time he wants, and because I figured Asmodeus couldn't close his eyes every time Aizen came within his line of vision, but I guess he'd have a backup plan. Or a clone going to the meetings for him. But yeah, I guess he, being the mother of all Magnificent Bastards, would probably have both, at least.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm not sure about Thrawn...I think he's more Lawful Neutral than evil.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And Ozymandias is not Evil by a long shot. He WROTE the book of the Well Intentioned Extremist! Maybe he could be Pawn #1, but certainly not consciously on the league of Asmodeus.

[Flickerdart]

You're still missing the Borg!

[Agrippa]

And Ozymandias is not Evil by a long shot. He WROTE the book of the Well Intentioned Extremist! Maybe he could be Pawn #1, but certainly not consciously on the league of Asmodeus.

Then explain Gates of Hell Beelzebub. Corrupted by his own self righteousness, hubris and utter belief in his own infallibility, a mighty throne archon fell into the Depths of Perdition, and thought himself more righteous than his former fellow archons because of it. Though he reigns in the Seventh Hell, the Lord of the Flies considers his domain Heaven at its most perfected. And he has absolutely no problems what so ever with his boss Asmodeus. If a Knight Templar fallen angel Lord of Hell can get along with Asmodeus, what would stop Ozymandais. The willingness to murder 2,000,000 people is the sure mark of an Evil if not Vile character. Even if it's to save the world. In my opinion Evil alignment in D&D deals with willingness instead aims. One can think themselves and their cause just, but commit terrible acts of evil to achieve that goal. They would be Evil regardless of their goals the end result of their actions.

[Azerian Kelimon]

But Ozymandias KNEW he was damning himself. He's not living in delusion and thinking "Hey, those people will be resurrected!". He KNEW he was damning himself, and that he did something horrible, and is tortured and sincerely remorseful by the end of watchmen. Hardly similar to that delusional idiot that is Beelzebub.

[Sixscimitars]

An interesting idea I had on how the Order could possibly exist and not kill itself:
Asmodeus, prior to the formation, is sealed away in a pocket dimension that severely limits his power. Asmodeus can use a few spells, but they will only work on evil people, and never himself. After thinking for another few millenia, Asmodeus decides a plan.
All this time, he has been looking down on the dimensions, and noted a number of people who could lead his legions of Hell to victory. After handpicking twenty-two people who he finds skilled enough, he shifts them all to his plane of origin, implanting a suggestion inside their brains to join forces. They manage to create an organization that Naraku sets himself up as leader of, but things soon start to fall apart. Some of the team's members find Naraku to be a pitiful leader, and much weaker than several members of the team, most noticably Aizen, who was literally planning to kill God in his home dimension, but is now "reduced to playing pawn to an egotistical half-yokai due to a strange dream". He then considers leaving or taking it over, but then finds a scripture while on a raid that talks of Asmodeus, and Aizen soon makes the connection. He then opts to not take it over, realizing that the leader is the one who Asmodeus's desires flow through most strongly, and chooses to keep his position, opting for the team's other Magnificent Bastards to follow suit, until better times come.
Well? It explains a lot, like why they don't kill each other, how it came to be, why they aren't totally unstoppable, with Asmodeus, why Naraku is leader, and why simply being near Asmodeus doesn't cause all their brains to eat themselves. It also sets up for a good plot hook, because it means that they could switch sides in the climax. *crosses fingers and hopes for acceptance*
Edit: Forgot that it explains why Aizen doesn't just hypnotize Asmodeus and play Chessmaster, because Aizen's never met Asmodeus before, and since Asmodeus knows what Aizen can do, he probably never will.

[Mr. Scaly]

Thrawn's still not evil. :-P

Maybe Grand Admiral Declann, who had Dark Side potential and was skilled in Battle Meditation?

Or Grand Admiral Demetrius Zaarin? One of very few Star Wars leaders to approach Thrawn in leadership skill, a brilliant scientist who developed several advanced starfighters, and a technophiliac?

[mikeloop86]

But Ozymandias KNEW he was damning himself. He's not living in delusion and thinking "Hey, those people will be resurrected!".

:smallannoyed: So you're saying that knowingly committing a vile act of mass murder is less evil than unknowingly doing so?


He KNEW he was damning himself, and that he did something horrible, and is tortured and sincerely remorseful by the end of watchmen.

:smallmad: Regret does not make the act any less evil. The inclusion of the Lords of the Nine in this villain ensemble would insinuate that we are using D&D's version of Alignment, specifically OBJECTIVE ALIGNMENT.

Murdering 2,000,000 innocent people is OBJECTIVELY EVIL no matter how you split it. Selectively assassinating the people you worked with, with no known reasons for the victoms to realize, is OBJECTIVELY EVIL.


Hardly similar to that delusional idiot that is Beelzebub.

Well, one of these two did manage to become a lord of hell, while the other will most likely just end up there. so...:smallwink:

[kpenguin]

I'd say that Ozymandias does not qualify because, in the end, his actions were of ambiguous morality. While it is true that it was a horrible act of mass murder, we must understand that it prevented an apocalyptic nuclear war which would have killed billions and was perhaps the only thing that could have prevented it.

Well, it could have done nothing, depending on whether or not Rorschach's journal is taken seriously, but regardless, it was good plan.

Its like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, scaled up. I don't think anyone wants Harry S. Truman on the list.

[Sixscimitars]

Isn't anybody going to notice one of the only posts that doesn't argue over whether a Knight Templar should be on the villain list?:smallannoyed:
Here's my theory: I don't know much about Watchmen, so I don't know, but... Was he an antagonist in his story? If he wasn't, then don't bother putting him on, but if he is, he follows the definition of villain, and by all means can be put on the list. "Villain" generally means someone who opposes the heroes, and if he does, he's a villain. I don't care how dark Watchmen was, if Ozymadias is far less sympathetic than the main characters, and deliberately opposes them, he's probably, just maybe, a villain.

[kpenguin]

Isn't anybody going to notice one of the only posts that doesn't argue over whether a Knight Templar should be on the villain list?:smallannoyed:
Here's my theory: I don't know much about Watchmen, so I don't know, but... Was he an antagonist in his story? If he wasn't, then don't bother putting him on, but if he is, he follows the definition of villain, and by all means can be put on the list. "Villain" generally means someone who opposes the heroes, and if he does, he's a villain. I don't care how dark Watchmen was, if Ozymadias is far less sympathetic than the main characters, and deliberately opposes them, he's probably, just maybe, a villain.

The problem is that... (don't open unless you want Watchmen spoilers)
Ozymandias, also known as Adrian Veidt, turns out to be right in the end.

You see, the world of the Watchmen was very near a nuclear showdown between the US and the Soviet Union. Veidt saw the danger long ago and orchestrated a plot to teleport a genetically-engineered monster into New York.

Now, teleportation through technology causes living things to die when they reach their destination. The monster's death would cause a psychic shockwave that would leave millions dead, more insane, and sensitives around the world with nightmares. It was so perfectly done to make the world think it was under attack by aliens and scare the world's nations into cooperation, thus averting nuclear war and bringing the Earth closes to utopia.

Once the heroes uncovered Veidt's plan, they rushed to their former friend's home in Antarctica, only to discover that he executed the plan thirty-five minutes ago. And you know what? It worked! The nations of the world believed it! Peace talks began between the two superpowers and a new era of cooperation was achieved.

The heroes agree that they cannot being Veidt in or reveal the truth behind the "alien" attack, because doing so would result it in resuming a nuclear conflict that would leave billions dead. So, all but one decide to keep their mouths shut. While Veidt's actions were vile, they saved the world from catastrophe.

Oh, and the one who spilled the beans? A clearly insane anti-hero with a touch of moral absolutism and a twisted set of ethics. He was killed before he could say anything, but his journal found by a newspaper. Whether or not the world believes him or whether the journal is even published is up to the reader

[Sixscimitars]

The problem is that... (don't open unless you want Watchmen spoilers)
Ozymandias, also known as Adrian Veidt, turns out to be right in the end.

You see, the world of the Watchmen was very near a nuclear showdown between the US and the Soviet Union. Veidt saw the danger long ago and orchestrated a plot to teleport a genetically-engineered monster into New York.

Now, teleportation through technology causes living things to die when they reach their destination. The monster's death would cause a psychic shockwave that would leave millions dead, more insane, and sensitives around the world with nightmares. It was so perfectly done to make the world think it was under attack by aliens and scare the world's nations into cooperation, thus averting nuclear war and bringing the Earth closes to utopia.

Once the heroes uncovered Veidt's plan, they rushed to their former friend's home in Antarctica, only to discover that he executed the plan thirty-five minutes ago. And you know what? It worked! The nations of the world believed it! Peace talks began between the two superpowers and a new era of cooperation was achieved.

The heroes agree that they cannot being Veidt in or reveal the truth behind the "alien" attack, because doing so would result it in resuming a nuclear conflict that would leave billions dead. So, all but one decide to keep their mouths shut. While Veidt's actions were vile, they saved the world from catastrophe.

Oh, and the one who spilled the beans? A clearly insane anti-hero with a touch of moral absolutism and a twisted set of ethics. He was killed before he could say anything, but his journal found by a newspaper. Whether or not the world believes him or whether the journal is even published is up to the reader

See, I honestly wasn't going either way. I was simply saying that if Veidt was a protagonist, he couldn't be on the list. Unfortunately, since we're talking about Watchmen, the line between hero and villain blurs into oblivion before long, rendering the main point of my argument nonexistant. Still, I guess I was kind of fed up with nobody paying attention to my other post. I didn't consider total moral ambiguity in the equation.
EDIT: Based on the overwhelming evidence that Ozymandias is so evil he makes Xykon shake in his boots, I now fully support the "Keep him here" argument. What? You knew if someone could provide sufficient evidence for their case, I'd be all over it.

[Dave Rapp]

I have no idea who most of those villains even are. :smalleek:

Davy Jones has shown little to know real cunning in terms of leadership, whereas Barbosa basically was able to bring (some) order to the squabbling and petty Pirate Lords. Screw Davy Jones, make Barbosa an admiral. Preferably the immortal Barbosa.

Also... HOW DID YOU LEAVE OUT PALPATINE?! Apart from being the most powerful Sith... uh, ever, he's also capable of manipulating an entire galaxy into falling under his rule. I don't even know who that guy you picked as leader was, but Palpatine would dethrone him. Even if Palpatine is a mere mortal (and he really isn't) he'd find a way to do it. He's friggin Palpatine.


You're still missing the Borg!

The Borg... kind of... don't work well with others. But, hey, they'd make good troops I suppose. It would also be interesting if the Borg assimilated the technology to make a Death Star Superlaser, which palpatine could probably provide.

[mikeloop86]

I'd say that Ozymandias does not qualify because, in the end, his actions were of ambiguous morality. While it is true that it was a horrible act of mass murder, we must understand that it prevented an apocalyptic nuclear war which would have killed billions and was perhaps the only thing that could have prevented it.

Once again, in an objective aligned morallity universe like D&D, then ends never justify the means and the act is still evil. While their might have been a form of peace established in the world (of which the integrity and stability is questionable) the means by which he obtained it still results IMO as a net Evil. And that concept of plan, in exactly the way Ozymandias carried it out, being the only option is debatable.


Well, it could have done nothing, depending on whether or not Rorschach's journal is taken seriously, but regardless, it was good plan.

Correction: It was a "well thouht out plan," but I wouldn't label it as "Good" if that is what you're trying to imply.


Its like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, scaled up. I don't think anyone wants Harry S. Truman on the list.

Here is why real world examples don't work in situations like this. The world we live in is not objectively aligned, and there are no primal forces of good, evil, law, or chaos for us to take for granted. As such, we cannot use real world examples like the bombing of hiroshima to translate into the Good/Evil spectrum of D&D. If we did, then guys like Harry S. Truman are assuredly taking magma baths at Spa de Hell.


The problem is that... (don't open unless you want Watchmen spoilers)

Ozymandias, also known as Adrian Veidt, turns out to be right in the end.

*Debateable

You see, the world of the Watchmen was very near a nuclear showdown between the US and the Soviet Union. Veidt saw the danger long ago and orchestrated a plot to teleport a genetically-engineered monster into New York.

Now, teleportation through technology causes living things to die when they reach their destination. The monster's death would cause a psychic shockwave that would leave millions dead, more insane, and sensitives around the world with nightmares. It was so perfectly done to make the world think it was under attack by aliens and scare the world's nations into cooperation, thus averting nuclear war and bringing the Earth closes to utopia.

*How is it a Utopia? This is all debateble, as the story ends with the very new peace set up between US and Russia, and a tabliod recieving the journal of Rorschach. We don't know if a utopia springs up from Viedt's plan, and even Viedt himself is unsure of his plans

Once the heroes uncovered Veidt's plan, they rushed to their former friend's home in Antarctica, only to discover that he executed the plan thirty-five minutes ago. And you know what? It worked! The nations of the world believed it! Peace talks began between the two superpowers and a new era of cooperation was achieved.

*Again, we never find out for sure if the peace is longstanding or if the world is truly the better for it

The heroes agree that they cannot being Veidt in or reveal the truth behind the "alien" attack, because doing so would result it in resuming a nuclear conflict that would leave billions dead. So, all but one decide to keep their mouths shut. While Veidt's actions were vile, they saved the world from catastrophe.

*The only thing this proves is that Viedt is a very good antagonist, in that he managed to trap the protagonists into going along with his plan or face eventual oblivion. He managed to effectively use the planet as a hostage for making the heroes go along with the alien invasion story. IMO, someone with that kind of talent is exactly what a villainous organization filled with Lawful Evil members would be looking for.

Oh, and the one who spilled the beans? A clearly insane anti-hero with a touch of moral absolutism and a twisted set of ethics. He was killed before he could say anything, but his journal found by a newspaper. Whether or not the world believes him or whether the journal is even published is up to the reader

*But does Rorshachs sociopathic tendencies have anything to do with Ozymandias' delusions of grandeur? Does Rorschach's unswerving sense of justice (be it skewed or not) somehow forgive Viedt for feeling HE has the right to decide that the slaughter of 2 million innocents is necessary for the safety of the planet?

[Freshmeat]

Here is why real world examples don't work in situations like this. The world we live in is not objectively aligned, and there are no primal forces of good, evil, law, or chaos for us to take for granted. As such, we cannot use real world examples like the bombing of hiroshima to translate into the Good/Evil spectrum of D&D.

Who says we have to use the D&D alignment system to define good and evil?
I don't feel like Ozymandias belongs on this list, regardless of what D&D would say. The alignment system is pretty restrictive anyway.

[mikeloop86]

Who says we have to use the D&D alignment system to define good and evil?
I don't feel like Ozymandias belongs on this list, regardless of what D&D would say. The alignment system is pretty restrictive anyway.

Because it makes more sense to bring Viedt into D&D's universe than it does to make Asmodeus transfer to his. Or to make Asmodeus go into any universe besides the one that actually includes the 9 hells. And it's also fitting considering each and every member that is not Asmodeus is attached to one of the Lords of the Nine.

And regardless of what D&D says (and whatever animosity you may have with the system), the fact still stands that Viedt is an exemplar antagonist within a story, which is primarily what villains are. So regardless of whatever "greater good" argument you want to try to throw out here, it still stands that Viedt:


Held the world hostage to make sure the protagonists went along with his plan
Decided that HE personally had the right to make the decision to kill 2 million people
Actually killed 2 innocent million people
Killed everyone else involved in the project
Murdered another hero in cold blood, in his home, when he was unarmed and defenseless



This is the kind of stuff most villains wish they could get away with. He definitely belongs on that list.

[Sixscimitars]

I have no idea who most of those villains even are. :smalleek:

Davy Jones has shown little to know real cunning in terms of leadership, whereas Barbosa basically was able to bring (some) order to the squabbling and petty Pirate Lords. Screw Davy Jones, make Barbosa an admiral. Preferably the immortal Barbosa.

Also... HOW DID YOU LEAVE OUT PALPATINE?! Apart from being the most powerful Sith... uh, ever, he's also capable of manipulating an entire galaxy into falling under his rule. I don't even know who that guy you picked as leader was, but Palpatine would dethrone him. Even if Palpatine is a mere mortal (and he really isn't) he'd find a way to do it. He's friggin Palpatine.



The Borg... kind of... don't work well with others. But, hey, they'd make good troops I suppose. It would also be interesting if the Borg assimilated the technology to make a Death Star Superlaser, which palpatine could probably provide.

Yes, put in Palpatine! If not him, then Darth Vader! But the idea of Palpatine taking out Asmodeus is ridiculously unlikely. Still, he could work, what with his power and resources.

[Mr. Scaly]

Yes, put in Palpatine! If not him, then Darth Vader! But the idea of Palpatine taking out Asmodeus is ridiculously unlikely. Still, he could work, what with his power and resources.

Either Palpatine or Darth Bane would work best. Palpatine is the perennial Man behind the Curtain, but Bane tricked an entire order of Sith into killing itself off.

And seriously, Thrawn's not evil.

[Sixscimitars]

How about this villain team, the Order of Perfection. Take: II
Emphasis mine. Thrawn was definitely an antagonist, if not flat-out evil, therefore he can stay.
Personally, I think if a person fulfills these four criteria:
1. Antagonist in his universe
2. Particularly strong/smart
3. Fulfills requirements for empty position
4. One step from Lawful Evil
That seems to be generally what it takes, and Thrawn fulfills all the above. Also, if he isn't evil, he's Lawful, the general aligment here, with a few exceptions.

[Mr. Scaly]

Guidelines would have helped. I wouldn't have anything to object about then. Heh.

Judging from those outlines, Thrawn fits the bill. Though i think it should be noted that he would probably turn on the others if they threatened his goal of a united galaxy and he had the upper hand.

[Sixscimitars]

Heh. I was actually just wildly speculating, based on Agrippa's tendencies.
Still, that applies to pretty much everyone on the list, so I find them to be reliable. It was those same guidelines that caused me to enter Aizen, and lo and behold, Aizen is on the list.

[Agrippa]

How about this villain team, the Order of Perfection. Take: II
Emphasis mine. Thrawn was definitely an antagonist, if not flat-out evil, therefore he can stay.
Personally, I think if a person fulfills these four criteria:
1. Antagonist in his universe
2. Particularly strong/smart
3. Fulfills requirements for empty position
4. Either Lawful or Evil
That seems to be generally what it takes, and Thrawn fulfills all the above. Also, if he isn't evil, he's Lawful, the general aligment here, with a few exceptions.

I agree with you and your list, but not with your fourth rule, "Either Lawful or Evil". That would be much too broad for a Lawful Evil focused group. A better alignment based restriction would be no more than one step away from Lawful Evil.

[Rare Pink Leech]

How about this villain team, the Order of Perfection. Take: II
Emphasis mine. Thrawn was definitely an antagonist, if not flat-out evil, therefore he can stay.
Personally, I think if a person fulfills these four criteria:
1. Antagonist in his universe
2. Particularly strong/smart
3. Fulfills requirements for empty position
4. Either Lawful or Evil
That seems to be generally what it takes, and Thrawn fulfills all the above. Also, if he isn't evil, he's Lawful, the general aligment here, with a few exceptions.

I think the fourth point should include intent and not merely action. In Thrawn's case, it would make him eligible for this team - he knew he was furthering the power of an empire built on racism and oppression, yet for the sake of galactic order he knowingly went along with it.

In Ozymandias's case, this would take him off the list, and I don't think he should have been on the list in the first place. Using a D&D alignment system, where actions are black and white, absolute, and based on what you actually do, I don't think there's a doubt that Ozymandias would have an Evil alignment. However, D&D alignments are also terribly limited and don't work in the real world, where Ozymandias's alignment is much more debatable.

The thing to remember is Ozymandias's intent - while he did evil things, he did it with good in mind. A case of "the ends justify the means", taken to the extreme. While you can still debate whether that makes him any less evil, the fact is he doesn't consider himself evil, nor would he align himself with a team of evil people, unless it was to infiltrate them and take them down from the inside.

[kpenguin]

Because it makes more sense to bring Viedt into D&D's universe than it does to make Asmodeus transfer to his. Or to make Asmodeus go into any universe besides the one that actually includes the 9 hells. And it's also fitting considering each and every member that is not Asmodeus is attached to one of the Lords of the Nine.

It makes even more sense to leave them separate.

[Arang]

Has Randall Flagg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Flagg) been considered? He would fit Big Gun, Muscle, Manipulator, Diplomat and if you let him bring his full resources, Bankroller and Commander. In the King books he's the strongest active force for evil in the entire multiverse.

[mikeloop86]

In Ozymandias's case, this would take him off the list, and I don't think he should have been on the list in the first place. Using a D&D alignment system, where actions are black and white, absolute, and based on what you actually do, I don't think there's a doubt that Ozymandias would have an Evil alignment. However, D&D alignments are also terribly limited and don't work in the real world, where Ozymandias's alignment is much more debatable.

Why should he get special treatment over everyone else? You admitted yourself that in the realms of D&D, Veidt would be evil, and consequently so would everyone else on the list. So what's the hang up?


The thing to remember is Ozymandias's intent - while he did evil things, he did it with good in mind. A case of "the ends justify the means", taken to the extreme. While you can still debate whether that makes him any less evil, the fact is he doesn't consider himself evil, nor would he align himself with a team of evil people, unless it was to infiltrate them and take them down from the inside.

Honestly, using that logic, nobody on the group would work with anyone, as there would have to be something that each character would take issue with. So let's not go down that line of kill-joy logic :wink:

And honestly, what is with the :censored:-on the people of this board have for Veidt? He is actually an example of one of the rare cases in which the protagonists are more interesting than the primary antagonist.


It makes even more sense to leave them separate.

Wow, what an amazing argument you have there. I wonder how I'll ever be able to counter an unsupported assertion like this :smallamused: .

Reasons that Veidt fits the bill for this list:

Is he an antagonist within his story (and thus a villain)? Check
Did he do things which many would agree as socially unacceptable (and ethically questionable)? Check
Overinflated ego? Check
Exotic lair? Check
Multilayered plotting and scheming? Check
Actually kills someone defenseless? CHECK!!!


Honestly, the only reason I'm hearing for Veidt not to be part of this group is the "but his intentions were good!" excuse. As has been said a hundred times throughout history: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And here is a few examples of other evil SOB's with good intentions:

Anakin (yes even this challenged individual had good goals)
Satan (read paradise lost)
Ras Al Ghuul (oh look, someone who's on our list already!)
Iron Man (read civil war)
The Lizard (from Spiderman)
Doc Ock
The Illuminati (read Planet Hulk)


I will once again assert, that Adien Veidt belongs on that list up to and until/unless someone finds a more fitting replacement.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Why should he get special treatment over everyone else? You admitted yourself that in the realms of D&D, Veidt would be evil, and consequently so would everyone else on the list. So what's the hang up?



Honestly, using that logic, nobody on the group would work with anyone, as there would have to be something that each character would take issue with. So let's not go down that line of kill-joy logic :wink:

And honestly, what is with the :censored:-on the people of this board have for Veidt? He is actually an example of one of the rare cases in which the protagonists are more interesting than the primary antagonist.



Wow, what an amazing argument you have there. I wonder how I'll ever be able to counter an unsupported assertion like this :smallamused: .

Reasons that Veidt fits the bill for this list:

Is he an antagonist within his story (and thus a villain)? Check
Did he do things which many would agree as socially unacceptable (and ethically questionable)? Check
Overinflated ego? Check
Exotic lair? Check
Multilayered plotting and scheming? Check
Actually kills someone defenseless? CHECK!!!


Honestly, the only reason I'm hearing for Veidt not to be part of this group is the "but his intentions were good!" excuse. As has been said a hundred times throughout history: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And here is a few examples of other evil SOB's with good intentions:

Anakin (yes even this challenged individual had good goals)
Satan (read paradise lost)
Ras Al Ghuul (oh look, someone who's on our list already!)
Iron Man (read civil war)
The Lizard (from Spiderman)
Doc Ock
The Illuminati (read Planet Hulk)


I will once again assert, that Adien Veidt belongs on that list up to and until/unless someone finds a more fitting replacement.

One acronym: BoED.

There. The arguments have been thoroughly debunked. And also, who said we were going by D&D morality? Occam's is your friend.

[mikeloop86]

One acronym: BoED.

There. The arguments have been thoroughly debunked. And also, who said we were going by D&D morality? Occam's is your friend.

You use the Book of Exalted Deeds to a debunk my argument? :smallsigh: If anything, it fortifies it. Remember that little example they have in the book about the Paladin climbing a mountain to save a kitten, only to cause a rockslide onto a village? :smallamused:

Yeah, that Paladin ended up with featless fighter levels. :smallwink:
Intention means nothing. Only objective action.

And who said we weren't using D&D moralty? See how I can turn that around? What would we use then?

And barring the alignment system, I still haven't seen a worthwhile counter to say Veidt isn't a villain/antagonist. Only that he's "not evil!!!!111"


You've debunked nothing, only proven that you can't bring the facts to actually counter my arguments. Which indicates you really don't have a leg to stand on.:smallamused:

[Azerian Kelimon]

See, the basest assumption is that Agrippa didn't say we were using the D&D system, which means we don't. Had he said we DO use it, the basest assumption would be we HAVE to use it. Gottit?

In just about every place, every game (Yes, even D&D), every non straw DM WILL put intent into the mix of what is good and wrong, and the same happens in the real world. That's why I mentioned BoED. According to it, better to cause untold pain and suffering to billions than to tarnish your pretty purity and exalted feats, to which every sane man and woman will have one word for: Bull****. It's the ultimate example of how the RAW alignment doesn't work, and WHY we use the RAI version (The second biggest example is that stupid airheaded authors believe LG is the goodest alignment, when it is NG. For chrissakes, the plane described as goodest is NG!).

And as for the reason Veidt is not a villain, simple: He feels regret for his actions, and wants to atone. His actions are vile and despicable, but he did them to save more lives, and is genuinely remorseful of doing that. That make shim not black, but gray. By the end of Watchmen, he speaks with Manhattan. His question is: "Was all of this worth it?"

None of the other bastards here feel the slightest remorse, and thus fall squarely into villains. Veidt, rather, would be an antihero or antivillain, a simple, mortal man.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Why should he get special treatment over everyone else? You admitted yourself that in the realms of D&D, Veidt would be evil, and consequently so would everyone else on the list. So what's the hang up?

The hang up is that Ozymandias isn't evil for evil's sake. The OP said (emphasis mine):

"Out of sheer curiosity and to read your opinions on the matter, I have decided to compile and post a villainous league from multiple fictional universes. To this end I have developed the group I dub, The Order of Perfection. They could cause terror through out the multiverse, provided they don't kill each other in the first five minutes."

Yes, Ozymandias's actions throughout Watchmen were evil, and yes, he was the story's villain, but none of the actions he took was so he could take over the world, or kill millions for the fun of it, or take revenge on somebody. He was a crimefighter who saved people, and to save the world he took it to the very extreme, damning himself in the process. He committed many evil acts. But he never, ever did evil for evil's sake.

From what the OP said, it seems the list is a list of villains to form a leage (like the Justice League or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I presume) to do dastardly things and take over everything. Ozymandias wouldn't do that. It doesn't matter that he is an evil s.o.b. and the story's villain. His goal is not to take over the world. His goal was to save it. Now why would he join a league of villains whose purpose seems to be purely to be villainous together?

If this list was a "best of" villains from various works of fiction, I agree that Ozymandias has to be on it. However, it seems like the OP wanted to create an all-star roster of villains to be the perfect villain team, and Ozymandias doesn't have the motivation to be on such a team.

[Mr. Scaly]

I've no idea who Ozymandias is, but Thrawn isn't evil for evil's sake either and he's on the list because he does evil things too. I'm rationalising his existence on this team because it would further his own ends. Couldn't Ozymandias do something like that too?

[mikeloop86]

I've no idea who Ozymandias is, but Thrawn isn't evil for evil's sake either and he's on the list because he does evil things too. I'm rationalising his existence on this team because it would further his own ends. Couldn't Ozymandias do something like that too?

Ex-freaking-xactly.


And as for the reason Veidt is not a villain, simple: He feels regret for his actions, and wants to atone. His actions are vile and despicable, but he did them to save more lives, and is genuinely remorseful of doing that. That make shim not black, but gray. By the end of Watchmen, he speaks with Manhattan. His question is: "Was all of this worth it?"

None of the other bastards here feel the slightest remorse, and thus fall squarely into villains. Veidt, rather, would be an antihero or antivillain, a simple, mortal man.


Sure, and no other villain has ever regretted their actions. :smallannoyed:

Except for the following!:

Iron Man
The Operative
Doc Ock
Green Goblin
Two Face
Darth Vader


Heck, in Batman: The Killing Joke (another one of Moore's works) even the Joker shows regret for the vicious cycle that him and Batman are apart of.

The fact that Veidt shows regret for his actions does not absolve him in the least for his villainous actions.


The hang up is that Ozymandias isn't evil for evil's sake. The OP said (emphasis mine):

Neither are a lot of the others on the list. Evil for Evil's Sake is usually reserved for the Demonic and Primeval entities. Most of the folks on this roster are evil for personal gain, which is not necessarily evil for evil's sake.


Yes, Ozymandias's actions throughout Watchmen were evil, and yes, he was the story's villain, but none of the actions he took was so he could take over the world, or kill millions for the fun of it, or take revenge on somebody. He was a crimefighter who saved people, and to save the world he took it to the very extreme, damning himself in the process. He committed many evil acts. But he never, ever did evil for evil's sake.

Emphasis mine. The primary reason most well done villains opt to take control of the world is the belief that they could do a better job of running the world over everyone else. Essentually, for the betterment of the world. Not that different from sacrificing a portion of the population for the betterment of the world.


From what the OP said, it seems the list is a list of villains to form a leage (like the Justice League or League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I presume) to do dastardly things and take over everything. Ozymandias wouldn't do that. It doesn't matter that he is an evil s.o.b. and the story's villain. His goal is not to take over the world. His goal was to save it. Now why would he join a league of villains whose purpose seems to be purely to be villainous together?

Why would David Xanatos team up with the Devil himself? Why would a Starfleet general team up with Asian-myth styled spiritual demon? Why would anyone who is sane agree to be part of a long term effort with a garbagecan that can only shout when it talks, and usually only "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"

Really, Veidt changing his perogatives is the last thing I'm gonna have trouble with when it comes to suspension of belief.

[Agrippa]

I've no idea who Ozymandias is, but Thrawn isn't evil for evil's sake either and he's on the list because he does evil things too. I'm rationalising his existence on this team because it would further his own ends. Couldn't Ozymandias do something like that too?

Isn't that why he's in the Order to begin with? Isn't that why everyone else is in the Order too?

[Sixscimitars]

How about this VILLAIN team, the Order of Perfection. Take: II
For those of you who missed it the first time, this is a list of villains. Call him what you will, Ozymandias is an antagonist.
In any case, it's said the predominant alignment is Lawful Evil, and as mikeloop mentioned, intent is meaningless by those rules. Veidt's actions were undoubtedly evil, leading to the deaths of millions. This man is an insane mass murderer, and even if he isn't evil, which has virtually no chance, he is, without a doubt, an antagonist, and can fit on here like a puzzle piece.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Really, Veidt changing his perogatives is the last thing I'm gonna have trouble with when it comes to suspension of belief.

I guess that's the whole point we're disagreeing about. I've studied Watchmen so much (both on my own time and for school) that I can't come to grips with Ozymandias changing his perogatives.

Ozymandias as part of a "Villain Hall Of Fame"? Hell yes. Ozymandias teaming up with other villains to pool their resources and expertise to become even more effective at their villainous ways? Doesn't work for me.

I can suspend my disbelief that all these villains from different universes can actually work together in harmony and ignore the fact that many would never take orders from any of the others. But I can't suspend my disbelief enough to assume Ozymandias would join them. Go figure :smallconfused:

[kpenguin]

I guess that's the whole point we're disagreeing about. I've studied Watchmen so much (both on my own time and for school) that I can't come to grips with Ozymandias changing his perogatives.


You get to to study Watchmen for school?

Awesome.

[mikeloop86]

I guess that's the whole point we're disagreeing about. I've studied Watchmen so much (both on my own time and for school) that I can't come to grips with Ozymandias changing his perogatives.

Ozymandias as part of a "Villain Hall Of Fame"? Hell yes. Ozymandias teaming up with other villains to pool their resources and expertise to become even more effective at their villainous ways? Doesn't work for me.

I can suspend my disbelief that all these villains from different universes can actually work together in harmony and ignore the fact that many would never take orders from any of the others. But I can't suspend my disbelief enough to assume Ozymandias would join them. Go figure :smallconfused:

Acknowledged, and it is understandable. However, discussion over whether Veidt belongs on the list would have been better suited to the original topic (In which the list actually was open for discussion/revision). In this topic, however, the OP is simply asking for:


What place should this group attack first? Should they send Teatime, Carcer, the Operative, Ozymandais and al-Ghul to capture Mysdia or take the Soul Society?

SO...the primary question of this not Who does/does not belong on this list, but rather what would be this group's modus-operendi (sp? latin?) and their primary targets.

However I could be wrong on that last part, feel free to correct me Agrippa. :smallbiggrin:

[Sixscimitars]

Acknowledged, and it is understandable. However, discussion over whether Veidt belongs on the list would have been better suited to the original topic (In which the list actually was open for discussion/revision). In this topic, however, the OP is simply asking for:



SO...the primary question of this not Who does/does not belong on this list, but rather what would be this group's modus-operendi (sp? latin?) and their primary targets.

However I could be wrong on that last part, feel free to correct me Agrippa. :smallbiggrin:

I'd say its motives would have ties to its formation, which is why I wrote that long backstory thingy as a backdrop. Going by it, the Order's primary motive would probably be to take over all universes, or free Asmodeus, because that is what Asmodeus wants. Those who realize the team is being controlled want to return to their own universe, and know that the only way it's going to happen is if Asmodeus is defeated, so they'll mostly be lying low until an opportunity comes along. 'Course, if nobody liked it, then screw this and give me your idea.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Acknowledged, and it is understandable. However, discussion over whether Veidt belongs on the list would have been better suited to the original topic (In which the list actually was open for discussion/revision). In this topic, however, the OP is simply asking for:

I did not realize the group had been open to discussion before ... I never saw the first thread. I thought "Take II" meant this was a second group being created or something. Oops :smallredface:

Edit: Being a Watchmen junkie, I also jumped right into the Ozymandias discussion and forgot what the thread was about.


SO...the primary question of this not Who does/does not belong on this list, but rather what would be this group's modus-operendi (sp? latin?) and their primary targets.


If I were an evil mastermind working with other evil masterminds to take over all universes (as Sixscimitars suggested, which sounds good to me) I'd start by eliminating the heroes most associated with all the members of The Order of Perfection. Those heroes, being the archnemeses of all the villains, know most about their villains and are most likely to defeat them.

I'd also start by taking out the most powerful heroes first, probably Batman and various heroes from, well, Heroes :smalltongue: They're the ones who can do the most damage to anyone on the team, whereas people like Shrek and Jack Sparrow are quite frankly small fries compared to many of the villains.

Oh, and I'd also make sure this was all done in secret. Finding out a bunch of villains are working together tends to galvanize the good guys into a team of their own.

[Sixscimitars]

I did not realize the group had been open to discussion before ... I never saw the first thread. I thought "Take II" meant this was a second group being created or something. Oops :smallredface:

Edit: Being a Watchmen junkie, I also jumped right into the Ozymandias discussion and forgot what the thread was about.



If I were an evil mastermind working with other evil masterminds to take over all universes (as Sixscimitars suggested, which sounds good to me) I'd start by eliminating the heroes most associated with all the members of The Order of Perfection. Those heroes, being the archnemeses of all the villains, know most about their villains and are most likely to defeat them.

I'd also start by taking out the most powerful heroes first, probably Batman and various heroes from, well, Heroes :smalltongue: They're the ones who can do the most damage to anyone on the team, whereas people like Shrek and Jack Sparrow are quite frankly small fries compared to many of the villains.

Oh, and I'd also make sure this was all done in secret. Finding out a bunch of villains are working together tends to galvanize the good guys into a team of their own.

Yup. Start by taking out protagonists most associated with the villains, then capture some key points. With Aizen and Thrawn leading the military, it shouldn't be too hard. Still, that last statement of yours gives me an idea. What if they really did form their own team?

[Agrippa]

SO...the primary question of this not Who does/does not belong on this list, but rather what would be this group's modus-operendi (sp? latin?) and their primary targets.

However I could be wrong on that last part, feel free to correct me Agrippa. :smallbiggrin:

It's both a matter of who does and doesn't belong and their modus-operendi. If Ozymandais doesn't fit then neither do Findthee Swing, Ras Al Ghul and the Operative. Besides, Asmodeus is very good at making up cover stories, disguise and convincing people that he's on their side. Depending on how self-righteous you are, Asmodeus could convince you that he's one of the good guys too.

[Agrippa]

Yup. Start by taking out protagonists most associated with the villains, then capture some key points. With Aizen and Thrawn leading the military, it shouldn't be too hard. Still, that last statement of yours gives me an idea. What if they really did form their own team?

You mean these guys? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4029169#post4029169)

[Sixscimitars]

Took the words right out of my mouth. What do you think of that backstory I wrote, anyway?

[Agrippa]

Took the words right out of my mouth. What do you think of that backstory I wrote, anyway?

IT needs a little more work, but it wasn't bad.

[Sixscimitars]

How about the guidelines, then? They applied to everyone so far, would you say they are accurate?

[Agrippa]

How about the guidelines, then? They applied to everyone so far, would you say they are accurate?

I guess so.

[Sixscimitars]

Moving on, I'd prefer using this thread to discuss the villains, while using the other to discuss the heroes in the campaign. It's quickly fallen to second page.

[Agrippa]

Moving on, I'd prefer using this thread to discuss the villains, while using the other to discuss the heroes in the campaign. It's quickly fallen to second page.

You're right. The Order of Perfection thread should be used for discussing the villians while the Protectors of the Cosmos thread should be reserved for the heroes and in some cases anti-heroes.

[Agrippa]

Okay then, what sort of sugesstions do you have for roleplaying the Order if this becomes a campaign? Second, who closely do you think each member's Infernal Patron matches their thought patterns? And no, the last question doesn't include Asmodeus himself. Third, when should we move this idea to one of the game forums?

[Sixscimitars]

I don't know. I don't really have every Lord personality yet.

[Agrippa]

I don't know. I don't really have every Lord personality yet.

Have you finished yet? Also, dramatically speaking, which Hell would be most suitable for the heroes to rescue Nia from? My thoughts are Cania. A layer of cold intellectualism and utter depression would be sure to test the limits of any Team Dai-Gurren member's sanity and hope. Mephistopheles' reason for this psychological Rape the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog) is simple. Posterity, the slow build up of psychological trauma Nia suffers could be put to great use in the fields of psychology and psychotry. He'd see it as a Shoot the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog) at the very worst.

[Agrippa]

Anyone still there?

[Mr. Scaly]

You know what? After this most recent comic I'm nominating Red Cloak. Maybe as an evil acolyte sering Asmodeus.

[SITB]

Might I nominate The Mule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_%28Foundation%29) from Asimov Foundation novels? His main task should probably be an anti emotion-using-hero specialist. Like, say, most Shonen (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shonen?from=Main.Shounen) heroes and determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator).

He could also double as an interrogator and advisor of the R&D division (Over clocking humans FTW!). Lastly, he brings psychic powers to the group (even if they are the empath-like (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEmpath) on steroids).

[Sixscimitars]

Anyone still there?

Yes, and I certainly agree with you on that matter.

[Agrippa]

Yes, and I certainly agree with you on that matter.

What matter in particular?

[Agrippa]

You know what? After this most recent comic I'm nominating Red Cloak. Maybe as an evil acolyte sering Asmodeus.

Directly or through the Dark One?

[Agrippa]

Might I nominate The Mule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_%28Foundation%29) from Asimov Foundation novels? His main task should probably be an anti emotion-using-hero specialist. Like, say, most Shonen (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shonen?from=Main.Shounen) heroes and determinators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Determinator).

He could also double as an interrogator and advisor of the R&D division (Over clocking humans FTW!). Lastly, he brings psychic powers to the group (even if they are the empath-like (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEmpath) on steroids).

I'll write him up latter. I may even borrow my father's copy of the Foundation books.

[Mr. Scaly]

Directly or through the Dark One?

Directly, representing the Dark one's interests. I half suspect that the Dark One is Asmodeus anyway.

[Agrippa]

Directly, representing the Dark one's interests. I half suspect that the Dark One is Asmodeus anyway.

Either that or the Dark One is merely a pawn of Asmodeus. Besides, does any here think that Asmodeus has much to fear from the Dark One or the Snarl? He'd let himself get eaten by the Snarl. Since he's a Cosmic Entity and not a mortal or god, Asmodeus then sit there comfortably for decades, with no ill effect biding his time and developing a method of extracting and reconstructing devoured souls. Then, Asmodeus, A.K.A. the Devil or "Old Scratch", can supernaturally force his way out killing the Snarl, with the reconstituted souls in tow, and be worshiped as a savior by all races. Then when all the celebration dies down a bit, Asmodeus can politely bow out and claim that he must return all these souls back to their final reward. In this case Asmodeus drags their souls down into the Nine Hells for all eternity, while the world worships him as a new god and the elder gods offer him a place at the table.

[Sixscimitars]

What matter in particular?


Have you finished yet? Also, dramatically speaking, which Hell would be most suitable for the heroes to rescue Nia from? My thoughts are Cania. A layer of cold intellectualism and utter depression would be sure to test the limits of any Team Dai-Gurren member's sanity and hope. Mephistopheles' reason for this psychological Rape the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog) is simple. Posterity, the slow build up of psychological trauma Nia suffers could be put to great use in the fields of psychology and psychotry. He'd see it as a Shoot the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheDog) at the very worst.

That one. I still feel a little lost, though.

[Agrippa]

That one. I still feel a little lost, though.

Why do you feel lost?

[hanzo66]

I sort of get the feeling that the members of Dethklok might fit in here, along with their manager Charles Foster Ofdensen.


Dethklok would probably be the public face of the Order and could lead to a large recruit of mooks for them due to their music's ability to induce a near-mind control upon the common people. They themselves have their own personal army of black-hooded Roadies who are willing to kill and die for them. They also have a tendency towards collateral damage and could probably kill some people were they at the right place at the right time. They also could be a bankroller, being wealthier than the nation of Belgium.

The true danger would be Ofdensen however, who is a ruthless and brutal businessman that is willing to have anyone that threatens the band (IE his "Bread and Butter") and by association his interests murdered and/or tortured. He would be the true power behind the band and the true representative of the Order (the band members would probably interact poorly with the other members). Ofdensen serves as the true commander of the Roadie Army has been show to be dangerous at close-range combat. He would be the one to give advice to Dethklok on what to do and would be the one to use their resources properly for evil (or more likely for greater profit).



But that's just me...

[Agrippa]

I always thought that Dethklok would be more suitable for the Abyss than the Nine Hells.

[Mr. Scaly]

Either that or the Dark One is merely a pawn of Asmodeus. Besides, does any here think that Asmodeus has much to fear from the Dark One or the Snarl? He'd let himself get eaten by the Snarl. Since he's a Cosmic Entity and not a mortal or god, Asmodeus then sit there comfortably for decades, with no ill effect biding his time and developing a method of extracting and reconstructing devoured souls. Then, Asmodeus, A.K.A. the Devil or "Old Scratch", can supernaturally force his way out killing the Snarl, with the reconstituted souls in tow, and be worshiped as a savior by all races. Then when all the celebration dies down a bit, Asmodeus can politely bow out and claim that he must return all these souls back to their final reward. In this case Asmodeus drags their souls down into the Nine Hells for all eternity, while the world worships him as a new god and the elder gods offer him a place at the table.

When you put it that way, it's a shame that Asmodeus doesn't seem to exist in the world of OOTS. I wouldn't say that he's completely immune to the Snarl. When Lord Shojo was talking about how the Snarl killed the Eastern Pantheon he said that they were more vulnerable than mortals of the same level would have been, not that said mortals wouldn't have been torn to furless shreds. I think that it would be the same for Asmodeus.

Come to think of it, there hasn't been much said about the Dark One. He's obviously some deity level figure, but whether or not he's a god at all...

[Agrippa]

When you put it that way, it's a shame that Asmodeus doesn't seem to exist in the world of OOTS.

Occording to Dicefreaks cosmology he does have a sister. One of her titiles is the Seventh Virture. While Asmodeus is the King of Hell, the Seventh Virture is the Queen of the Seven Heavens (you'd think). Asmodeus is the father of all Devils True, his sister is the mother of all native Archons.

[hanzo66]

I always thought that Dethklok would be more suitable for the Abyss than the Nine Hells.

Well, I was just considering them as perhaps usable by the Order, with their manager wielding full power.

[Agrippa]

Well, I was just considering them as perhaps usable by the Order, with their manager wielding full power.

That's possible. But in my mind Asmodeus would probably assassinate Dethklok, unless they escape, and replace them with a more amenable group but with similar powers.