Duskblade,Favored Soul combo, Double?

[Stormdrake]

Am joining a game and am looking at doing a multiclass Duskblade and Favered Soul. At first glance it looks like they compliment each other very well. Any one done this already? Its been nearly twenty years sense I last played D&D so have no idea but it sounds cool, lol. The game is kinda high powered so let me here your thoughts.
Thanks,
Stormdrake

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not a good idea. In general, follow this mantra: "I must not lose levels in a spellcasting class. I must not lose levels in a spellcasting class. I must not lose levels in a spellcasting class. Imustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingclass, Imustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingclass, ImustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingclassImustnotlose levelsinaspellcastingclassImustnotloselevelsinaspe llcastingclassImustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingcla ssImustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingclassImustnotlo selevelsinaspellcastingclassImustnotloselevelsinas pellcastingclassImustnotloselevelsinaspellcastingc lass!"

[Zincorium]

Three spellcasting attributes in a melee combat character? Er, that's going to be more than a little rough.

Add to that you're waiting until a much higher level to get the best feature of duskblades (the multiple attack channeling) in exchange for a few spells that you're not going to be the best with, losing attack bonus all the while, and there just doesn't seem an upside to counter all the downsides.

[Squash Monster]

Unfortunately, it won't work very well. They're both casting classes, which have exponential power curves. If you get, say, the first ten levels of each, then you'll end up with far less than half as much power in each side as you would have otherwise.

What is the synergy between them that you saw? If you're hoping to be a sort of holy spell-powered knight, Cleric does it very well by itself. If instead you were hoping to mix spell channeling with buff spells, you can do that through the generic gish build by taking more levels of Spellsword than is usually done. (Generic gish build: fighter 1 / wizard 6 / spellsword 1 / abjurant champion 5 / eldritch knight 7)

If you're dead-set on getting both divine and arcane spells, and still being a warrior of sorts, you're going to need to do a lot of trickery, and it still won't come out quite right. Mixing divine and arcane needs either Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant. The problem is that both of those are really weak, and the only fix is to be an Ur-Priest who goes into Mystic Theurge. Worse yet, you really want to be in Arcane Hierophant, as it's much better at fighting.

If you really want to though, see if you can get Bamboo Spiritfolk allowed as a race (it's in Dragon Magazine, thus the "if"). If you do that, you can qualify for Arcane Hierophant with Ur-Priest and your racial abilities. Finish with Abjurant Champion and you're a decent dual-casting warrior.

[Dode]

Gotta join the chorus here advising against it. It's good to hear you're back playing though :)

D&D mechanics kind of discourage the "one-man party" thing you're going for by trying to be a good fighter, healer AND mage. Odds are you're going to suck at all of them unless you pull out some arcane levels of cheese and obscure races like Squash Monster there did :wink:.

The Duskblade is considered good for a tank that can haul huge amounts of damage and can buff itself. Considered a versatile and respectable build from levels 1-20. Plus its arcane channeling and quick draw abilities skirt the problem of economy of actions (explained later), which plagues most theurges and gishes.

Hate to say it but the best solution is to pick a role and hope your party can step up when something shows up that's outside of it. There also is the issue of economy of actions in D&D: Although you'll have a vast amount of options, you'll only be able to use one of them per turn, effectively limiting you to be being either a fighter, caster OR healer on a turn-by-turn basis instead of all at once like you're going for here.

Also, Favored Soul isn't really considered as good as a cleric. This is because
Clerics get Turn Undead and FVs don't, which can be used as fuel for tons of divine-related powers that make the class a real beast.
Clerics only need Wisdom for spells while Favoured Souls need Wisdom for spell DC and Charisma for max known spells, meaning you need to have Charisma and Wisdom cranked to be a good Favoured Soul. Not getting into the good Int score you'll need for Duskblade, the Str. you'll need for combat and the Con to make sure you don't drop. As a general rule, needing more then 2 good scores isn't the sign of a good build or class.

If you haven't already, maybe take a peek at the Tome of Battle and look up the Crusader class if you want a killing machine with cool spell-like attacks that can heal himself in combat.

Or play a Kord-worshipping cleric. Clerics can be stupidly powerful in melee in our current version of D&D.

[Person_Man]

That is literally one of the worst combinations I've ever seen. Crazy MAD. Nerfed caster levels. And its an off fluff combo as well.

But you've been away for a long time, so I understand. But here's some general advice for 3.5 D&D. You need at least one of the following things to be somewhat useful:

1) Full caster progression. The classic examples are Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, or some combo of Class + Prestige Class, where the prestige class has full caster progression or something close to it.

2) Full BAB + something cool to do in combat, usually a feat combo and/or special ability combo. Melee classes tend to be much weaker then full caster classes, but they're simpler to play.

3) Tons of Skills. This won't actually help you much in combat, but it can give you something useful and interesting to do in all the non-combat encounters. Skill-centric classes tend to be much weaker then casters, and can be weaker then melee classes if you don't know what you're doing.

Of course, there are a million exceptions to those rules. But in general, most hybrid builds suck unless you really know how to exploit the rules.

[Chronos]

The key thing to realize is that multiclassing in third edition is nothing at all like multiclassing in earlier editions. In 2nd edition, if you were in a party of about tenth level, and you multiclassed, say, fighter and wizard, you'd probably be about wizard 9 / fighter 9, and the added versatility was probably enough to make up for the loss of a level. But in 3rd edition, if you're in a tenth-level party, your character would be wizard 5 / fighter 5, which is not at all worth it.

This is not to say that multiclassing is worthless in 3rd edition. There are some multiclass builds which work much better than in previous editions, or which would not even have been possible. The simplest case is the warrior-type classes: A barbarian is almost always improved by dipping into Fighter for a couple of levels to pick up extra feats, for instance. And prestige classes can be great for anyone, if you pick one that advances and complements the key abilities of your existing class. And if you really want to combine two different classes, there are a lot of PrCs specifically for combining them, which are almost always better than just splitting your levels half and half between the two base classes (though they're still somewhat weaker than pure builds).

[Stormdrake]

Sigh, well I asked. Lol. My initial reason was that the combination of the two seemd to give you some really good saves with only a "minor" sacrifice in BAB. However, I can see the point that muli-classing is not what it used to be when I was in highschool. So, ya, will drop the Favored Soul and go strait Duskblade. Doing that, what are some of the better choices for feats (Again something not in 2nd edition :)) for a Duskblade?
Thanks again,
Stormdrake

[Dode]

Well, Power Attack is always a good staple feat right out of the PhB. It's a requirement for countless other feats, and especially useable for Duskblades because they can cast True Strike (+20 to hit with a single attack), later on as a swift action a couple times a day.

Power Attack is a req for Leap Attack (Complete Warrior, basically makes Power Attack more potent), Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, basically a more reckless substitute for tanks who can't cast True Strike like Duskblades, but they can use it whenever they like, so it's good for everyone), all of those feats are worth looking into.

Arcane Strike (Complete Arcane iirc) is great for Duskblades because it basically sacrifices spells for 1 solid round of melee potency. Since Duskblades are good at melee and have buckets of disposable spells as is, this feat lends a real edge to high-level characters.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth looking into, especially with reach weapons. The lower base damage of say a spiked chain compared to a greatsword isn't too important, because as a Duskblade most of your damage output is going to be based on your channeled spells and power attack modifier.

For example, let's say you're 6th level and have Cleave/Great Cleave and can wield a Spiked Chain. You wade into a mob of attacking orcs, then pop off a quick casted True Strike and channel a Shocking Grasp for an extra 5d6 damage. Having reach makes the difference between slaughtering between 8 and 24 low-CR enemies in that round.

The Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack> Combat Expertise > Whirlwind Attack tree pretty much lets you do the above whenever you want and isn't contingent on a kill-chain to do, and is insanely deadly. But it's a lot more feat-costly to do, and Duskblades are sadly lacking in feats and must to use them sparingly.

Battle Caster lets Duskblades cast in heavy armor (not just light and medium), so that's a popular defensive feat.

Combat Expertise is fun for defensive Duskblades as well as a req for Whirlwind Attack. My DM wasn't very pleased when I was holding down a bottleneck by using 0th level rays with a -5 penalty.

[Rad]

Well, Power Attack is always a good staple feat right out of the PhB. It's a requirement for countless other feats, and especially useable for Duskblades because they can cast True Strike (+20 to hit with a single attack), later on as a swift action a couple times a day.

Power Attack is a req for Leap Attack (Complete Warrior, basically makes Power Attack more potent), Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, basically a more reckless substitute for tanks who can't cast True Strike like Duskblades, but they can use it whenever they like, so it's good for everyone), all of those feats are worth looking into.

Arcane Strike (Complete Arcane iirc) is great for Duskblades because it basically sacrifices spells for 1 solid round of melee potency. Since Duskblades are good at melee and have buckets of disposable spells as is, this feat lends a real edge to high-level characters.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency is worth looking into, especially with reach weapons. The lower base damage of say a spiked chain compared to a greatsword isn't too important, because as a Duskblade most of your damage output is going to be based on your channeled spells and power attack modifier.

For example, let's say you're 6th level and have Cleave/Great Cleave and can wield a Spiked Chain. You wade into a mob of attacking orcs, then pop off a quick casted True Strike and channel a Shocking Grasp for an extra 5d6 damage. Having reach makes the difference between slaughtering between 8 and 24 low-CR enemies in that round.

The Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack> Combat Expertise > Whirlwind Attack tree pretty much lets you do the above whenever you want and isn't contingent on a kill-chain to do, and is insanely deadly. But it's a lot more feat-costly to do, and Duskblades are sadly lacking in feats and must to use them sparingly.

Battle Caster lets Duskblades cast in heavy armor (not just light and medium), so that's a popular defensive feat.

Combat Expertise is fun for defensive Duskblades as well as a req for Whirlwind Attack. My DM wasn't very pleased when I was holding down a bottleneck by using 0th level rays with a -5 penalty.

I beg to differ.

Whirlwind Attack is a full-round action of its own. So is Arcane Channel (Full Attack). You cannot use Arcane Channel on anything other than plain attacks or special attacks (Overrun, Trip, Sunder, Disarm and no other things). As such I would not think of getting all those not-that-useful requirements it has.

Arcane Strike is better left to Gishes with high level spell slots. A Duskblade's spells usually do more than 1d4 damage per level and in real games (not duels) you do not burn all your daily spell slots in 3 rounds.

Battle Caster is good, but getting a Mithral armor at the high levels is as good with the added bonus of more AC (higher Dex bonus) and one feat.

If you have good Dex, Combat Reflexes+Exotic weapon Proficiency[spiked chain] would be good.
Power Attack is a must for the Duskblade. Quickened True Strike makes wonders to it! Get Leap Attack too.
If you do not use a two handed weapon you sort of need to get Somatic Weaponry (Complete Mage) or you have to keep one hand free for casting :smallfrown:
Improved Trip is nice if you get Combat Expertise. However powering both Combat Expertise and Power Attack is hard so you'll probably end up not using it.
If you have good Wis (you'll probably have to sacrify something to it or rely on items) Arcane Disciple with the right domain can make wonders.

[Stormdrake]

Thats a question I have been meaning to ask: If a Duskblade is using a twohanded weapon is he bared from casting any spells that require gestures? Follow up: Do Duskblades still need components for their spells?

[Yeril]

Arcane Strike is better left to Gishes with high level spell slots. A Duskblade's spells usually do more than 1d4 damage per level and in real games (not duels) you do not burn all your daily spell slots in 3 rounds.


The advantage of this, is that the damage stacks with itself, and you can burn any amount of spells, If you need one good strong round of melee offensive, you can burn all of your level 1 and 2 spells for the day and rack up +2 to hit +30d4 damage per hit. :smallsmile:

Not worth 20 spell slots, but if your backed into a corner this nova of magical damage can obliterate even the strongest of enemys in one round.

[AmberVael]

Thats a question I have been meaning to ask: If a Duskblade is using a twohanded weapon is he bared from casting any spells that require gestures? Follow up: Do Duskblades still need components for their spells?

Technically you can still hold a two-handed weapon in one hand- you just can't chop with it. So when you want to cast a spell you just let go of it with one hand, blast someone, and then take hold of it next time you want to attack someone with it.

[Blackfang108]

Thats a question I have been meaning to ask: If a Duskblade is using a twohanded weapon is he bared from casting any spells that require gestures? Follow up: Do Duskblades still need components for their spells?

As an Epic Level Duskblade wielding a halberd in one of my campaigns, I have to say that, YES. You can still cast spells with somatic components.

Taking a hand off of you weapon and putting it back on are both free actions.

Personally, I never took Power Attack. I have Improved Critical for the Halberd and a boatload of metamagic feats, along with Improved Combat Casting (VERY useful once you can take it. No AoO for a Melee Spellcaster. Saved my tail more than once.)

I would recommend looking into reserve feats (complete Arcane or Complete Mage, can't remember which offhand.) especially Dimensional Jaunt. So long as you know Dimension Door and have a 4th level spell slot open for the day, you can teleport 20ft as a standard action as long as you want. other feats let you cast attack spells so long as you have an open slot. Worth looking into if nothing else.

Battle Caster is practically useless for the duskblade. you automatically get the light and medium armor abilities, and if you REALLY need heavy armor, you can splurge on either Mithril or on Twilight (lowers ASF%, mentioned at the bottom of the Duskblade Table page.) armor to lower the ASF chance.

Or just do what I do and keep your breastplate on.

Edit: spelling.

[The J Pizzel]

I'm not in the habit of giving out build advice on these boards because there are other people who do it much better than me. But since it hasn't been brought up, I'd like to take a minute to explain the "nova" strike. Which is a high damage strike that uses a lot of resource, but is usually worth it.

At level 5 you get quick cast I believe. This allows you to cast 1 spell/day as a swift action. This is beautiful.

With a two handed weapon:

First - in a previous round make sure you have Blades of Blood activated.

Next - Cast a quickened True Strike as a swift action.

Then - Arance Channel a Shocking Grasp while Power Attacking for your Full BAB. Remember you'll add strength and a half for two handing and you'll add double the penalty you took to attack to damage from Power Attack. Don't worry about taking a large penalty, you just cast True Strike, so you probably shouldn't miss.

So, let's assume you level 7 with a STR of 18 (+4) useing a +1 Greatsword.

Attack: 7 (bab) + 4 (str) + 20 (true strike) +1 (enhancement) - 7 (power attack penalty) = 25

Damage 2d6+1 (weapon) + 1d6 (blades of blood) + 6 (str) + 14 (power attack, remember you double it if two handing) + 5d6 (shocking grasp).

For a grand total of + 25 to attack and 8d6 + 21 to damage.

Thats not counting that you could have made your Blades of Blood stronger and you might have a elemental damage on you sword. It's a very nice trick.

Feel free to correct any mistake or add on fellow forumers. This was just my stab and helping out.

jP

[Person_Man]

Sigh, well I asked. Lol. My initial reason was that the combination of the two seemd to give you some really good saves with only a "minor" sacrifice in BAB. However, I can see the point that muli-classing is not what it used to be when I was in highschool. So, ya, will drop the Favored Soul and go strait Duskblade. Doing that, what are some of the better choices for feats (Again something not in 2nd edition :)) for a Duskblade?
Thanks again,
Stormdrake


Well, that depends on what you want to focus on. Damage, defense, or battlefield control. But here are some good generic Duskblade feats.

A brief and legal index of feats can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats). A shorter but more detailed one is at Crystalkeep.

Arcane Disciple: Expands your spell list.

Obtain Familiar: Familiars can hold a spell indefinitely until you cast another - this gives you an action advantage on the first round. They can also share spell buffs, and act as scouts or mounts if you take Improved Familiar.

Aberation Blood + Inhuman Reach + Extend Reach: Gives you +10 ft to your natural reach. Use a Spiked Chain, and your natural reach is now 30 feet.

[Stormdrake]

Thanks for the suggestions on feats. Diffrent question: What are the 0-level spells for a Duskblade? Gm has the book and I can't find any of the spell lists on line for Duskblades that include 0-lvl spells.

[AmberVael]

Personally, I never took Power Attack. I have Improved Critical for the Halberd and a boatload of metamagic feats, along with Improved Combat Casting (VERY useful once you can take it. No AoO for a Melee Spellcaster. Saved my tail more than once.)
Just for reference...
I would not recommend Improved Critical for a duskblade if they were using a two-handed weapon. Save it for something that has 18-20 crit range. Power attack is better since it has a damage addition that you can control more easily. Critical hits are not something to rely on...
Furthermore, Improved Combat Casting is a disgusting waste. You have to get Combat Casting before you can take it, and 25 ranks of concentration. You know why that's a waste?
The highest DC for casting a spell defensively (and thus provoking no AoOs) is 24. (unless you get into epic spells and that feat which allows you to cast spells at levels over than 9, but frankly you can deal with those with a check too, if you continue putting ranks in concentration). Once you've can get Improved Combat Casting there's no reason at all to take it, because you already have the benefits.


I would recommend looking into reserve feats (complete Arcane or Complete Mage, can't remember which offhand.) especially Dimensional Jaunt. So long as you know Dimension Door and have a 4th level spell slot open for the day, you can teleport 20ft as a standard action as long as you want. other feats let you cast attack spells so long as you have an open slot. Worth looking into if nothing else.
Dimensional Jaunt is somewhat useful in case you ever need to get away. Most of the others aren't worth it... though there is one that is useful. Minor Shapeshift. Probably has something to do with being connected to the polymorph line of spells that makes it worth it on occasion. :smallyuk:
The usefulness of it is that it is a swift action to activate, you can use it repeatedly, and it has a number of bonuses you can gain. Temporary HP, damage bonus, speed bonus... not so good for just a normal wizard, perhaps, but good for a gish-y type. Metamagic might be better though, overall.

[Stormdrake]

Yet another question, lol. (Sorry abou this folks) Is their a feat that would offset the Duskblades limitation of learning only one new spell per level? Something that would allow the addition of a stat modifier?

I should mention that initially I was looking at the feat's of "Eschew Materials" and "Improved Initiative". After reading responses I am thinking "Eschew Materials" is a waist. Not sure about "Improved Initiative" though.

[AmberVael]

The Duskblade spell list is on page 24 of the PHB II, just for reference.
Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, and Disrupt Undead. So nothing really good.

And... you could get the Extra Spell feat? Not that it's very good...
Arcane Disciple might work. Kinda.

Eschew Materials certainly isn't a waist. It is, however, a waste.
Improved Initiative is great. Going first is fun!

[Dode]

I beg to differ.

Whirlwind Attack is a full-round action of its own. So is Arcane Channel (Full Attack). You cannot use Arcane Channel on anything other than plain attacks or special attacks (Overrun, Trip, Sunder, Disarm and no other things). As such I would not think of getting all those not-that-useful requirements it has. Yes you can, as Whirlwind Attack is described as " When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#whirlwindAttack), not as a "full-round action".

[Blackfang108]

Dimensional Jaunt is also useful for closing with ranged opponents and cowardly spellcasters.

as it is a swift action, you can add 20 feet on to the end of your run, and then wait for them to attempt to fire/cast, and wack them with an AoO.

It also allows you to bypass difficult terrain if used properly.

Let's say there is a spellcaster who is just across some dense undergrowth. You don't have enough movement to get there normally because of the difficult terrain. So you move as close as you can, and he's within 20 feet. so you pop in next to him, and his next turn he either runs away from you (AoO for leaving a threatened square), casts a spell on you (AoO), or tries to wack you with his Staff (you should have more than enough AC for this to matter)

[AmberVael]

Dimensional Jaunt is also useful for closing with ranged opponents and cowardly spellcasters.

as it is a swift action, you can add 20 feet on to the end of your run, and then wait for them to attempt to fire/cast, and wack them with an AoO.

It also allows you to bypass difficult terrain if used properly.

Let's say there is a spellcaster who is just across some dense undergrowth. You don't have enough movement to get there normally because of the difficult terrain. So you move as close as you can, and he's within 20 feet. so you pop in next to him, and his next turn he either runs away from you (AoO for leaving a threatened square), casts a spell on you (AoO), or tries to wack you with his Staff (you should have more than enough AC for this to matter)

Dimensional Jaunt isn't a swift action. It's a standard action. That makes it a bit less desirable.

[Blackfang108]

My bad. It is a standard action.

On the other hand, for small Duskblades wearing medium or heavy armor, it's still useful.

Also, does Duskblade even have a spell that lets them use the polymorph Reserve feat?

I can't recall anything on the list that would let them use it.

[Paul H]

Hi

Why Dimensional Jaunt? This costs feat. You can just buy boots from Magic Item Compendium which just costs GP.

Cheers
Paul H

[AmberVael]

My bad. It is a standard action.

On the other hand, for small Duskblades wearing medium or heavy armor, it's still useful.

Also, does Duskblade even have a spell that lets them use the polymorph Reserve feat?

I can't recall anything on the list that would let them use it.
No, it's not useful. Because it's a standard action, and thus uses up your only standard action, thus you can't do anything but move on your turn.

And I don't think they do have a spell that works, which is a bit disappointing. You could get one, most likely, but it would be complicated, convoluted, and probably not worth the effort. My advice is just to leave reserve feats alone, in that case.

And yes, Paul, using gold is infinitely better in this case. Anklet of Translocation sounds about right for the use you'd get out of Dimensional Jaunt.

[Paul H]

Hi

Anything stopping you using Magic Item Compendium? Plenty items there to help you do more damage, etc. Bracers increase wpn effective size for damage. Boots allowing you to dim door. Torcs granting +5 to melee damage/str checks/str based skills. List goes on.

Dwarf Duskblade in Mithril armour, Str 18 using Dwarf Waraxe+1 does 2D8+5 damage. (using bracers). (Dam 2D8+10 using Bracers & Torc).

Cheers
Paul H

[Stormdrake]

So now the party has started talking about prestege classes. Looking at the Duskblade I can't really see switching until after 13th lvl so I have the full attack ability. After that though is there something that would work really well or should I just push to 20th?