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View Full Version : Core Sorcerer/20 to take on CR27 Gold Dragon



Crow
2008-03-06, 09:21 PM
Forgive my charop ignorance;

How can this guy beat this beast? PHB, DMG (sans leadership), and MM are available.

BRC
2008-03-06, 09:22 PM
Wish him out of existance?

Mee
2008-03-06, 09:23 PM
So, you have a level 20 sorcerer? Against a CR 27 Gold dragon?
Well, gold dragons are almost always good, is this one? And are you?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-06, 09:28 PM
Okay, that would be a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon...

Here's what ya do...

leave it the hell alone.

Seriously, it's casting as a 19th level sorcerer. It has SR 33. It has Foresight as a SLA, for crying out loud.

Run. Run fast. No way in hell you can take this, Core. Because it will do everything you do, and it's also a dragon to boot.

Mee
2008-03-06, 09:33 PM
Is "Time Stop" in the core books? I would go check, but I'm not sure where my books are..

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 09:39 PM
If the dragon is played properly, the sorcerer doesn't have much luck, since the dragon is also a level 19 sorcerer with availible tactics along the lines of "rod-quickened Teleport, full attack". Taking everything to boost SR penetration (Greater Spell Penetration, a Robe of the Archmagi, and an Orange Ioun Stone give a CL of 27 for purposes of beating SR, vs. an SR of 33; UMD a Bead of Karma and that's 31 vs. 33), a rod-quickened Disjunction (to get rid of a Mind Blank) followed by an Arcane-Reached, rod-extended Irresistible Dance (to take the dragon out of the fight for 2d4+2 rounds, giving you enough time to kill it) is your best bet. You need to win initiative, but that should be possible (dragon initiative scores are lackluster).

Shapechange(Cheese Choker form) will give you an extra Standard Action in case your first Irresistible Dance is stopped by SR and you want to try another or Teleport out.

The safest way to approach the dragon is cast Greater Arcane Sight (so you can see what spells are on it) to teleport over to it in a Time Stop, so if you Teleport into an unfavorable situation (the dragon has an Antimagic Field up, say) you can leave before anything can actually happen.

Aside from that, crank Diplomacy cross-class and use your high CHA to synergize with it, then talk a bunch of evil dragons into helping you take it down.


Keep in mind that the Great Wyrm definitely qualifies for Epic feats like, oh, Epic Spellcasting, or Permanent Emanation(Antimagic Field) (and Automatic Quicken Spell, Multispell, Improved Metamagic, and the like on top of that), so if the dragon is optimized you're going to die pretty much no matter what.

Cheese on par with the dragon taking the above is using the Gate spell to bring in something epic. You can cast Gate at CL 25 with a UMDed Bead of Karma and an Orange Ioun Stone; that lets you bring in a 50-HD being... like a bigger dragon from another plane. Or a [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm]Gibbering Orb[/url. Or a Titan which Gates in another Titan which does the same in a chain that lasts until you have enough Titans, but really, unless the dragon is in an AMF, something with Blasphemy as an at-will SLA and as many HD as the dragn or more (41+) will do it.

holywhippet
2008-03-06, 09:39 PM
Is "Time Stop" in the core books? I would go check, but I'm not sure where my books are..

Yes - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

Problem is, the dragon is probably able to cast it as well. Also, there's no guarantee that any area of effect spells you cast will actually affect it once the time stop ends.

FlyMolo
2008-03-06, 09:40 PM
Classic Ray of clumsiness and some of that Mage Hunter stuff from complete Arcane to negate SR.

Erm, to bypass SR, you could go Dragon Pact from Dragon Magic(iirc), then use that SLA as a prereq for the monstrous feat in Savage species which turns a SLA into a (su) ability not subject to SR. Find a way to deal dex damage from a Dragon Pact, and you got it made.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 09:43 PM
Classic Ray of clumsiness and some of that Mage Hunter stuff from complete Arcane to negate SR.

Erm, to bypass SR, you could go Dragon Pact from Dragon Magic(iirc), then use that SLA as a prereq for the monstrous feat in Savage species which turns a SLA into a (su) ability not subject to SR. Find a way to deal dex damage from a Dragon Pact, and you got it made.

That's not a "Core" Sorcerer 20, as it happens.

Mee
2008-03-06, 09:49 PM
Yes - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

Problem is, the dragon is probably able to cast it as well. Also, there's no guarantee that any area of effect spells you cast will actually affect it once the time stop ends.

Thank you, but that's not what I was thinking of.
If you cast that, then while you're still under it's affect, could you cast it again? That should about double your time, do that, and run.

Wait, do you have to kill it, or just get past it? And, can you get past it? Is the tunnel wide enough? Or are you even in a tunnel?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-06, 10:08 PM
Time Stop is, but the worst cheese (celerity) isn't.

Options I have so far:
Killers:
A core-only variant of the infamous Gaterape.
Anti-osmium.
Falling Rocks. read:walls of stone
Book of Explosive Runes.
Maximized Timestop+Walls of Force+Cloudkill spam
Maze+Quickened Dimension Lock
Bluffomancer+Trap the Soul
Wish.

Incapacitators:
Quickened Arcane Reached Irresistible Dance.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Diplomancer.

I think that covers everything.

And don't forget, if you are doing this and failed, it was only an Astral Projection. :smallwink:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-06, 10:30 PM
Time Stop is, but the worst cheese (celerity) isn't.

Options I have so far:
Killers:
A core-only variant of the infamous Gaterape.
Anti-osmium.
Falling Rocks. read:walls of stone
Book of Explosive Runes.
Maximized Timestop+Walls of Force+Cloudkill spam
Maze+Quickened Dimension Lock
Bluffomancer+Trap the Soul
Wish.

Incapacitators:
Quickened Arcane Reached Irresistible Dance.
Dust of Sneezing and Choking.
Diplomancer.

I think that covers everything.

And don't forget, if you are doing this and failed, it was only an Astral Projection. :smallwink:

Greater Rod of Metamagic Maximize isn't core, so you couldn't max timestop + walls of force.

And the problem is, the Dragon is likely to have Greater Dispel Magic, or perhaps a rod of dispelling to get out, or Teleport without Error.

Irresistable dance is pointless, assuming SR doesn't cancel it out (very likely), his will save is insane.

Your only hope, core, is Diplomancer.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-06, 10:33 PM
Forgive my charop ignorance;

How can this guy beat this beast? PHB, DMG (sans leadership), and MM are available.

Cheese, or get really lucky. Gate cheese, maybe; possibly repeated Greater Planar Bindings. But whatever you do, it will require cheese for an actual confrontation. See, by definition, a single 20th level character should not be able to take down a CR 27 challenge in a direct confrontation. Anything that permits it is cheesy. It's in the "run away" category.

The SR can mostly be surmounted - both SR penetration feats, a Robe of the Archmagi, an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (or better yet, they technically stack, get lots, but we'll ignore that bit of cheese for the moment) and one Spell Power archmage ability, you're looking at 1d20+28 vs. DC 33 - you need a 5 or better (80% chance of success).

Attacking Fort or Will saves are pointless (+33 modifier, before little things like magic items or spells - good luck getting your save DC even to the 36 that would put it outside the "don't roll a 1" category); and reflex saves tend to be "wait a while" or direct damage only - and it's got 717 HP; and at Colossal, you can't even put it inside a barred Force Cage (not that that would help, what with it being almost as much of a caster as you are). Assuming you don't CdG it in it's sleep, can't reliably make it roll a 1, and don't want cheese, about the only thing you can hope to do is bypass it, convince it to not be your enemy, or gather allies to deal with it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-06, 10:40 PM
Greater Rod of Metamagic Maximize isn't core, so you couldn't max timestop + walls of force.

And the problem is, the Dragon is likely to have Greater Dispel Magic, or perhaps a rod of dispelling to get out, or Teleport without Error.

Irresistable dance is pointless, assuming SR doesn't cancel it out (very likely), his will save is insane.

Your only hope, core, is Diplomancer.Irresistible Dance has no Save, and a couple Ioun Stones and a Robe of the Archmagi will overcome SR. Most of what I put up is no-save, no SR, and is doable in one round.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-06, 10:44 PM
Hmmm... you have a point...

I know... the Balor Bomb!

Time Stop. Gate to Summon a Balor. Have him summon a balor. Etc. So now you've got four or five balors around. Another time stop, rinse wash repeat.

Now, what do you do with ten balors? Easy. make 'em surround the dragon.

Gold dragon is LG, these things are Evil, so Dragon attacks Balors. If they win, fine, summoned critters go where they belong. If the dragon kills one, Death Throws, and you have a chain reaction, multiple balors going off should be able to take the thing down.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 10:47 PM
Summoned creatures can't summon, sorry. That "sploit" got closed off.

This is why you need to Gate in a Titan--Titans have Gate as an SLA, and Gate is a Calling effect. Called creatures don't have the limitations Summoned ones do.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-06, 10:52 PM
With the proper application of cheese its trivial. Without cheese its impossible.

Shishnarfne
2008-03-06, 10:55 PM
Look, here's the problem: The CR 27 Gold Dragon can cast as a level 19 Sorc, and gets cleric spells as options to boot.

So almost any casting trick you can pull, it can pull. And it's smarter than your sorceror. And it has WAY more HP, a nasty full attack, and a breath weapon.

Your only hope is to out-think the person running the dragon. So you have to think up of a trick that they don't, and hit them with it before they can hit back... and it had better do the job Right.

Collin152
2008-03-06, 10:55 PM
With the proper application of cheese its trivial. Without cheese its impossible.

Seeign as the dragon has all your spellcastign and much much more!

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 10:57 PM
With the proper application of cheese its trivial. Without cheese its impossible.

I dunno, is Time Stop-Teleport-Quickened Disjunction-Irresistible Dance cheese? Disjunction and Irresistible Dance are both ridiculous spells, but it's hardly on the level of the Book of Exploding Runes or Infinite Gate Loop...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-06, 10:59 PM
Well the dragon can let himself be killed by the PC instead of trying to kill the PC by having lame spells and lame magic and treasure that he can't or won't utilize. Run into the PC wandering around without his treasure. Live in a defenseless lair anyone can find protected by his reputation. Not know the Foresight spell and have his Foresight spell like ability already used up before the encounter. Not live underwater or in a Rope Trick. Not have any defenses in his lair.

Most creatures in game can be killed if the PC is allowed to prepare and specialize for the single encounter with a fullcaster at 100% using suggested wealth by level once a player is familiar with how a DM handles game mechanics in his campaign.

IMO creatures like Dragons should be played intelligently by another role player who has spent a little time familiarizing himself with the creature abilities to make the encounter challenging and memorable instead of a cakewalk with half the magic and treasure chosen by the DM and half by the creature player (With the role players getting rewarded for surviving or defeating the PC monster).

Little simple things that use up actions or make the lone PC make mistakes make an Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon hard to kill. IMO a with a well played dragon the PC may never know or learn why the strange sorcerer couldn't be killed because he was a dragon:

Mindblank via spell or magic item. Wearing a Hat of Disguise in "humanoid" form (Long lived elf or the most common local race) or other dragon form (Exalted White Dragon (since Gold Dragons are Immune to Fire) or Black or Green Dragon (Water Breathing) or a Bronze Dragon. Using the Luck bonus. Using the Water Breathing ability (Living underwater or flooding the lair with intruders). Foresight 1/Day.

Hiding out in a Rope Trick above a Perm Image or Simulacrum (While the PC One Shots the double) Invisibly falling onto the surprised PC after the one shot attack from another dimension or plane shifting away.

Using the Contingency Spell and standard arcane caster spellcasting strategies. A permanent enlarged Hallow or Hallows (or Construction from the Stronghold Builders Guide to prevent one shot teleporting into the lair. The BBEGs don't normally do that to the PCs in most games.

Depends on the campaign how easy it is for a PC to find the right lair of the CR 27 Gold Dragon in the first place (which could be in a city where he is a respected mover and shaker) unless it is a duel which kind of nerfs the dragon?

How come the PC "knows" the opponent is a Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon instead of another type of humanoid sorcerer (crazy old hermit spellcaster) or younger dragon. Mindblank as a known spell or via an item should pretty much be a given IMO in most games and defeats most divinations targeting the dragon.

Standard CR27 Gold Dragons are Ancient Wyrm Sorcerers L19 with base Int 32, Wis 33 and Char 32. DR20 Magic, SR33 and a 24 D10 breath weapon are something when a PC thinks he is one shotting a humanoid sorcerer. Still nice with another dragon type and a unexpected energy type breath weapon when the PC is expecting another energy type.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon

Idea Man
2008-03-06, 11:25 PM
I feel compelled to warn the cheesy.

Note: The rules surrounding the gate spell are a tad ambiguous. It says you can demand a service, which it will perform as long as it is within one round/lvl. If you tell a titan to gate in a friend, the DM may be inclined to call that the service. Now, a titan is a great way to distract the dragon! So is a balor, a pit fiend, or a solar. Anything it can't immediately ignore/destroy.

Also, the dragon can have greater spell immunity in its spell list. If irresistable dance has ended a battle before in your game, there's a fair chance the dragon could be prepared for it.

Given the fact that you don't outclass the dragon in casting power by much, a perfect strategy or allies are your best hope. Gate/summon monster will delay the dragon reaching you and rending you limb from limb. Create undead would give you access to incorporial creatures (read: surprise attack), and won't impact your casting for the day. Also, if your DM is indulgent, you could take leadership (followers are a waste, here, but a cohort two levels lower than you would be really useful!)

Of course, if you fail to kill the dragon in this battle, and it fails to kill you, it has access to cure/heal spells. Round two?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-06, 11:31 PM
Little simple things that use up actions or make the lone PC make mistakes make an Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon hard to kill. IMO a with a well played dragon the PC may never know or learn why the strange sorcerer couldn't be killed because he was a dragon:

Mindblank via spell or magic item. Wearing a Hat of Disguise in "humanoid" form (Long lived elf or the most common local race) or other dragon form (Exalted White Dragon (since Gold Dragons are Immune to Fire) or Black or Green Dragon (Water Breathing) or a Bronze Dragon. Using the Luck bonus. Using the Water Breathing ability (Living underwater or flooding the lair with intruders). Foresight 1/Day.
Problem, here: dragons aren't people. They don't think like people. On top of that, they're supposed to be arrogant--or at least proud.
A Great Wyrm gold dragon is basically the toughest thing on pretty much any block, and he knows it. Who would confront such a beast willingly? Who could pose a threat? Only the PCs... who haven't been around before.

And you're telling me that that proud, majestic, powerful creature is going to disguise itself as a pathetic human? Or, even worse, one of its natural enemies?

That aside, True Seeing beats the Hat of Disguise (and Greater Arcane Sight clues you in that Disguise Self is up) and Change Self both.

There are no core items of Mind Blank. Disjunction beats the spell.


Hiding out in a Rope Trick above a Perm Image or Simulacrum (While the PC One Shots the double) Invisibly falling onto the surprised PC after the one shot attack from another dimension or plane shifting away.
Greater Arcane Sight shows all of these things. The Great Wyrm is a VERY tight fit for that Rope Trick, and is more likely to be lying confidently in its fancy lair.

These are the tactics of paranoid, squishy, tower-dwelling wizards, not a Great Wyrm gold dragon who probabl hasn't had anything remotely resembling a challenge in the last thousand years, and that last one was Great Wyrm red dragon.


Using the Contingency Spell and standard arcane caster spellcasting strategies. A permanent enlarged Hallow or Hallows (or Construction from the Stronghold Builders Guide to prevent one shot teleporting into the lair. The BBEGs don't normally do that to the PCs in most games.
Stronghold Builder's Guide has a lot of cheesy stuff and is 3.0. The Hallow doesn't stop people from teleporting *in*, I think.

Contingency? Assuming it takes that, what would it set the contingency for? Odds are it'd get Disjoined with the rest of the buffs.


Depends on the campaign how easy it is for a PC to find the right lair of the CR 27 Gold Dragon in the first place (which could be in a city where he is a respected mover and shaker) unless it is a duel which kind of nerfs the dragon?
No, it doesn't nerf the dragon... a dragon is already very strong for its CR; that CR does not also account for items, a lair, minions, traps, and the like!

Chronos
2008-03-07, 12:23 AM
Greater Rod of Metamagic Maximize isn't core, so you couldn't max timestop + walls of force.Looks to me like it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicMaximize).


an Orange Prism Ioun Stone (or better yet, they technically stack, get lots, but we'll ignore that bit of cheese for the moment)I don't see how they'd stack... Even though it's an unnamed bonus, it's still from the same source. So unless the description explicitly states that it stacks, they don't.

Rachel does have a point, that dragons are arrogant, and that can be used against them. The downside is, there's a very good reason that dragons are arrogant.

Given that we're talking core-only, the dragon has a near-perfect defense available to it, in Antimagic Field. In the field, it's still an absolute beast of a melee monster, and you're a Commoner 20. You can try to Disjunction the field, but you'll only have a 1 in 4 chance of success, at best, and even if you do, losing it won't actually hamper the dragon, and it won't lose any buffs it might have cast underneath the field (possibly including Mind Blank, Death Ward, Spell Turning, (Greater) Spell Immunity, and so on). There are a small handful of spells you can cast into the field, but most of the Core ones aren't even enough to get a dragon's notice.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-07, 01:02 AM
First we play in different kinds of campaigns and each have fun.

I disagree regarding the one shotting dragon premise with simple tactics and not allowing dragons to have basic defenses based on their mental abilities and spellcasting and spell like abilities along with their psycology since it depends on your DM playing style and his campaign and the simple tactic strategy against (Nerfed Suboptimized Fullcaster) defenseless dragons is not a given in all campaigns.

IMO wise and intelligent Fullcasters with base ability scores of 30+ don't normally like being killed by grubby inferior treasure seeking humanoids and know without a doubt their greatest threat is other fullcasters and all it takes is a single round and a mistake to kill them.

Let's not forget this Gold Dragon can cast no experience Miracles (Luck Domain) and Greater Miracles as Arcane Spells which also includes Hallow and a lot of other spells for his lair or other situations. Things like duplicating any Cleric spell of Level 8 or lower like Greater Planar Ally (Planetar), Planar Ally (Noble Djinni).

Your earlier post acknowledged the dragon had Mindblank up but then for some reason assumes it is easy for BBEGs or PCs to find him and try to kill him with Scry, Teleport and Die tactics. IMO one mistake against the dragon can be all it takes for the PC to die. Contingency spell set to tightly or loosely.

IMO Foresight a divination spell is ineffective versus Mindblank in most games. The Alarm spell is an Abjuration magic for Mindblanked intruders. How it would interact with a Foresight would vary from campain to campaign (Don't forget a few spellcasting Simulacrums scattered around the lair (No Experience for destroying them (Maybe with a permanent Alarm token inside))). There is the possibility of encountering the dragon's familiar somewhere empathic link up to 1 mile.

Mindblank negates the majority of divinations. Miracle can intercept most Communes as a much higher level spell in most games to deal with one of the few spells Mindblank is ineffective against.

Hallow can prevent most Teleports with Enlarged Dimensional Anchor.

Permanent Alarm tokens via the permanency spell can be hidden out of sight from approaching creatures to forewarn the dragon. Nice in caverns or hallways since they can warn up to one mile away (two miles if enlarged).

What the SRD and the Monster Manual state is the base mental abilities in the 30s for the dragon. I missed that "Problem" part regarding how they think in the SRD and Monster Manual and since we both have different opinons we know they certainly don't think like that in all games and campaigns while they always start off with the base mental abilities in the 30s which I listed earlier.

I see no problem here with dragons thinking like humanoids especially the ones the spell like abilitiy of being able to change into humanoids. The dragon is a sorcerer -19 basically a full caster he knows what a full caster can do and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

There are old pilots and bold pilots but not very many old bold pilots which I have always thought works well for dragons.

An Ancient Wyrm Gold Dragon is supposed to be a CR27 encounter for 4 or 5 ECL 25+ PCs not a one shot roll over encounter for a ECL 20 PC Sorcerer. The dragon should have good known spells and useful treasure based on his base Int and Wisdom scores.

Sorcerer -19 can know the Mindblank spell. He can know the Antimagic spell or have a scroll of it like a PC.

Personally I don't like PC MDJ tactics as a first choice since it wastes the magical treasure and Epic encounter like an Ancient Wyrm could have a Artifact or two and now there is a chance the full caster is now a commoner even with a Will DC25 save. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of the encounter to gain more treasure than expended. No reason the dragon can't kinow the spell either.

Regarding the Rope Trick spell it is not a tight fit for the Dragon all by himself. It isn't size limited per se it is creature limited and only the rope is weight limited so I prefer having the dragon enter in humanoid form (Under 16,000 #) and it depends on each campaign if beings can enter by flying or only by the rope (Easy to work around either way).

The Hallow spell no reason the dragon cannot cast Hallow himself via a Miracle himself and make it semi permanent and I know the dragon can cast a spell like an enlarged Dimensional Anchor in it (Plus he can make as many as needed and mix up the semi-permanent spells):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm

Regarding Greater Arcane Sight (Divination Spell) so it reveals a lot of magic in the dragon lair but not that the dragon is in the Rope Trick against our Mindblanked Dragon) it only works for 1 minute a level. The neat thing about that spell is it works the same for both casters unless they have Mindblank up.

There are so many options available to the dragon in core in comparison to a standard core sorcerer who can basically go Loremaster and Arch Mage for PRCs.

Why can't the dragons have dispelling traps up for just that reason. The Simulacrums can cast Dispel Magic and other spells to burn up defensive spells.

I disagree taking all those things away from the dragon does nerf him. The majority of the canned BBEG adventures produced by Wizard's involve basic defenses with various aspects of traps, underlings, useful treasure and magic items particularly the high ECL BBEG. We are talking about an Epic dragon.

Cuddly
2008-03-07, 01:31 AM
Greater Rod of Metamagic Maximize isn't core, so you couldn't max timestop + walls of force.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicMaximize

Pretty sure they are.


Problem, here: dragons aren't people. They don't think like people. On top of that, they're supposed to be arrogant--or at least proud.
A Great Wyrm gold dragon is basically the toughest thing on pretty much any block, and he knows it. Who would confront such a beast willingly? Who could pose a threat? Only the PCs... who haven't been around before.

And you're telling me that that proud, majestic, powerful creature is going to disguise itself as a pathetic human? Or, even worse, one of its natural enemies?

There's precedent- Exemplars of Evil has an ancient blue who likes to take human form and hang out in her sons' harem. There she waits for adventurers, has relationships that we don't have words for yet, and works on siring the next generation of half-dragons.

Dragons take the form of "lower" creatures all the time.


Stronghold Builder's Guide has a lot of cheesy stuff and is 3.0. The Hallow doesn't stop people from teleporting *in*, I think.

It does; regardless, there was a web supplement that came out that barred extradimensional movement.


No, it doesn't nerf the dragon... a dragon is already very strong for its CR; that CR does not also account for items, a lair, minions, traps, and the like!

See, I'm curious about this. In later publications, Wizards started letting customers know which monsters used loot and which ones didn't. I get the feeling that dragons *should* be using the loot, if you're going to play a dragon as an actual thinking beast, and not another mob with some nonsensical lootz on it. Judging by the Draconomicon, dragons use their treasure.