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Mr. Friendly
2008-03-07, 11:49 AM
From this article: (http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/03/05/dd-xp-interview-sara-girard-rob-heinsoo/)


Game players are not going to thank us, and the amount of fun that would be added to the table if we actually did this ’simulation’ is, my guess would be like one out of twenty players would get this warm rosey glow and say, “I think this is really like reality!” and the other ones would say, “When is it my turn?! Because I am so tired of you doing what you’re doing!” When I say the paradigm was shifted, this is the shift. We’ve moved away from simulation towards gameplay. Now that doesn’t mean that simulation is dead, that means that before 3.5 was on the simulation side of the middle ground, and now we’re on the gameplay side of the middle ground. That’s what I think.

As you can see from this quote and the other on that page, D&D 4th Edition will Cure Cancer and Create World Peace. Ending World Hunger is slated for after the first expansion.

Tengu
2008-03-07, 11:52 AM
I think that's an underestimation of fourth edition's quality.

JadedDM
2008-03-07, 01:30 PM
But nothing for World Hunger? Oh, of course, that'll be in a later splatbook. Way to sucker us out of all our cash, WotC.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-07, 01:45 PM
From this article: (http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/03/05/dd-xp-interview-sara-girard-rob-heinsoo/)



As you can see from this quote and the other on that page, D&D 4th Edition will Cure Cancer and Create World Peace. Ending World Hunger is slated for after the first expansion.

Also, I bet that they'll be keeping property of it. What are the odds that they'll release The Solution to the Energy Crisis under the SRD?

Telonius
2008-03-07, 01:52 PM
Sadly, we'll have to wait for 5th Edition for the Theory of Everything. :smallfrown:

Lord Tataraus
2008-03-07, 02:13 PM
As you can see from this quote and the other on that page, D&D 4th Edition will Cure Cancer and Create World Peace. Ending World Hunger is slated for after the first expansion.

Crap, we're all dead now. With world peace there is no natural population control, causing overpopulation and with it increased disease, hunger, and destruction of the environment until the planet is beyond repair and either a huge war breaks out or everyone dies from starvation. World peace is nothing it is cracked up to be, in fact destroys humanity, I for one will go down gunning before that happens, you can't stop nature and instincts they'll always overcome in the long run.

As for cancer, meh it'll help I guess. But I can't stand world peace, stupid 4th edition :smallfurious:

Zincorium
2008-03-07, 02:19 PM
Sadly, we'll have to wait for 5th Edition for the Theory of Everything. :smallfrown:

I'm pretty sure Fax is homebrewing a version for 4.0, so we'll be covered.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-07, 02:25 PM
Sadly, we'll have to wait for 5th Edition for the Theory of Everything. :smallfrown:

Is that a second cousin to the Theory of Relativity? :smallcool:

shadowdemon_lord
2008-03-07, 02:28 PM
So I guess that puts the end of all bigotry and the various isms on the back burner, with a tentative release schedule with the first Eberon books?

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-07, 02:39 PM
So I guess that puts the end of all bigotry and the various isms on the back burner, with a tentative release schedule with the first Eberon books?

Well yes and no. We all know that thanks to 4e there is no such thing as racism.

Roderick_BR
2008-03-07, 02:52 PM
And it's probably bullet proof too.

Tren
2008-03-07, 03:32 PM
No Roderick, by the time 4E is through, it won't have to be. It'll stop bullets with it's mind.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 05:05 PM
I know this thread is a joke and all, but really, "They're moving away from 'simulation' side of things"? The only thing 3.5 could be used to "simulate" was a bad drinking game.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-07, 05:38 PM
I know this thread is a joke and all, but really, "They're moving away from 'simulation' side of things"? The only thing 3.5 could be used to "simulate" was a bad drinking game.

Well, that's pretty harsh. Only slightly hyperbolic... but still pretty harsh. There were some simulationist elements that they got around to removing after all, like the Pythagorean Theorem...

Also, I'd like to point out that yet again game design overlooks the AIDS pandemic and Nuclear Proliferation. I am sadly dissapointed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 05:42 PM
Well, that's pretty harsh. Only slightly hyperbolic... but still pretty harsh. There were some simulationist elements that they got around to removing after all, like the Pythagorean Theorem...

Also, I'd like to point out that yet again game design overlooks the AIDS pandemic and Nuclear Proliferation. I am sadly dissapointed.World Peace doesn't eliminate nukes, but it makes it so they don't matter anymore, and with no war there's no reason for hippies to gather, at least slowing the spread of AIDS.

Neon Knight
2008-03-07, 05:44 PM
I know this thread is a joke and all, but really, "They're moving away from 'simulation' side of things"? The only thing 3.5 could be used to "simulate" was a bad drinking game.

You know, I think this brings up an interesting question. How much detail and realism is required in a set of rules for them to be called simulationist? Could it be that the simulationist label is merely a perception and not a concrete reality?

KIDS
2008-03-07, 05:46 PM
This thread made me LOL heartily :)

AKA_Bait
2008-03-07, 05:47 PM
World Peace doesn't eliminate nukes, but it makes it so they don't matter anymore, and with no war there's no reason for hippies to gather, at least slowing the spread of AIDS.

Ah but sir, you forget about accidents and that hippies don't need a reason to gather.

Snadgeros
2008-03-07, 05:47 PM
The 4th Edition pantheon consists of only one god: Chuck Norris.:smalltongue:

AKA_Bait
2008-03-07, 05:48 PM
The 4th Edition pantheon consists of only one god: Chuck Norris.:smalltongue:

And I'll be darned if that doesn't simulate reality!

Chuck Norris once punched a man in the soul.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 06:00 PM
Well, that's pretty harsh. Only slightly hyperbolic... but still pretty harsh. There were some simulationist elements that they got around to removing after all, like the Pythagorean Theorem...
Sometimes it's got to hurt if it's to heal. But really, those guys couldn't even get an equipment list consistent.
As far as diagonal movement, well, diagonal is just as arbitrary a direction as any other. I could be said to be moving in a diagonal at any time in my existence. Why is it if I move NW I'd be moving slower if I moved directly N? It never made sense to begin with, it was just a stupid game rule.

You know, I think this brings up an interesting question. How much detail and realism is required in a set of rules for them to be called simulationist? Could it be that the simulationist label is merely a perception and not a concrete reality?Or that whole GSN "theory" is a load of crap created by a pseudo-intellectual designed ultimately to make himself feel self important. All labels are perceptions.

Neon Knight
2008-03-07, 06:07 PM
Or that whole GSN "theory" is a load of crap created by a pseudo-intellectual designed ultimately to make himself feel self important. All labels are perceptions.

I don't ascribe to GSN theory. I've noticed that some of the "more rules" proponents on this board refer to themselves as such, and was using their terminology.

I'm also not quite sure that absolutely all labels in human society can be said to be perceptions, but I'm willing to bet you didn't mean for it to be taken quite that literally.

Argetlam15
2008-03-07, 06:07 PM
As far as diagonal movement, well, diagonal is just as arbitrary a direction as any other. I could be said to be moving in a diagonal at any time in my existence. Why is it if I move NW I'd be moving slower if I moved directly N? It never made sense to begin with, it was just a stupid game rule.


Actually, you move at the same speed, it's just the distance that's altered. If you got a square, 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide (or something), then it won't be 5 feet diagonally. it's actually a bit more than 7 feet across. That's why you move "slower" when you move NW than if you move directly N...

Rutee
2008-03-07, 06:15 PM
Or that whole GSN "theory" is a load of crap created by a pseudo-intellectual designed ultimately to make himself feel self important. All labels are perceptions.

The model is crap, no question. It doesn't /model/ anything. That by default fails it as a model. However, the terms and their definitions are somewhat more useful. The largest problem with them, of course, is that using them implies mutual exclusivity, because what's-his-face has squirrels controlling his mental functions. They're not mutually exclusive, at all. All it is, is priorities. And it's hardly useful 100% of the time.


And it's probably bullet proof too.
That's HERO, IIRC.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-07, 07:24 PM
I'm pretty sure 4th edition will also let us know if P= NP or P =\= NP too.

(If you don't understand, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Np_completeness) a link to the Wikipedia you can read, and still not understand)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 07:27 PM
I'm pretty sure 4th edition will also let us know if P= NP or P =\= NP too.

(If you don't understand, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Np_completeness) a link to the Wikipedia you can read, and still not understand)Someone e-mail that to David Morgan-Mar and then I'll understand it.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 07:53 PM
Actually, you move at the same speed, it's just the distance that's altered. If you got a square, 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide (or something), then it won't be 5 feet diagonally. it's actually a bit more than 7 feet across. That's why you move "slower" when you move NW than if you move directly N...But at any point in time you can be said to be walking a hypotenuse, therefore why are some hypotenuses different than others?

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-07, 07:55 PM
4th Edition is only going to cure cancer and create world peace in order to appeal to more MMO players.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-07, 07:59 PM
4th Edition is only going to cure cancer and create world peace in order to appeal to more MMO players.

...hee. I think the relevant internet term here is "I LOL'D".

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-07, 08:01 PM
But at any point in time you can be said to be walking a hypotenuse, therefore why are some hypotenuses different than others?

It's because D&D works by "squares". You're essentially moving from the center of one to another. It must be a very strange place though, since people seem to only be able to move in 8 different directions.

SillyRobot
2008-03-07, 08:25 PM
But at any point in time you can be said to be walking a hypotenuse, therefore why are some hypotenuses different than others?

(I'm assuming this isn't a silly/troll question)

Walk North 30 feet. How far have you walked (30 feet).

Turn right 90 degrees and walk East 30 feet. In total, how far have walked (60 feet).

Walk directly back to your starting location. How far was that? (About 42 feet).

So, by walking 42 feet, you covered the same distance North-South as someone walking 30 feet. You also covered the same distance East-West as someone walking 30 feet. But you had to walk farther than either partial route to do it.

The reason people find the "count a diagonal as the same distance as the main grid" silly is under that system, walking back to the starting position only requires 30 feet of movement or the same amount as to move in either one of the two dimensions you have shifted.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 08:30 PM
The problem is that squares are completely arbitrary. It's just as easy to pick up the square marker, spin it so it lines up to where you want to go, and move your little guy. Or just say it moves 20" on the board. There's no real reason for 4 directions to take longer to move in than the other four.

Lupy
2008-03-07, 08:34 PM
If world peace happens when I get done with college I will so create a robot army and go on a rampage, destroying millions, culling the population to end world hunger, then make myself Emporer of the World... (laugh and the robots will find you!). Then, I will roll a d20 Knowlegde: Planetary Management with a DC of 15 and apply my charisma and bluff bonuses!

Bauglir
2008-03-07, 08:49 PM
The problem is that squares are completely arbitrary. It's just as easy to pick up the square marker, spin it so it lines up to where you want to go, and move your little guy. Or just say it moves 20" on the board. There's no real reason for 4 directions to take longer to move in than the other four.

Except, you see, that the "longer" directions aren't actually directions of their own. They're just composed of components of the other 4. When you move on a diagonal, you're moving in two directions at once. And yes, it's no problem to rotate the mat, but to do it properly you have to rotate all the stuff on the map with it in a circle. If you do it right, you don't actually save any distance by going to the effort of redrawing the map every time a character wants to take a move action.

Farmer42
2008-03-07, 08:53 PM
I'm just wondering how hard it will be to house rule this into hexes. They really do make life easier. Pretty much my only gripe with 4E.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 08:59 PM
What houseruling? Just lay down an old BT map. Or convert it to a unit of measurement and grab some tape measures. It doesn't really matter.

Farmer42
2008-03-07, 09:01 PM
AoE's and the like, and readjusting sizes. Basically, anything bigger than one square in size.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 09:03 PM
Then it's X hexes, or X inches/cms. Those squares are completely arbitrary, and can be as arbitrary as needed.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 09:03 PM
AoE's and the like, and readjusting sizes. Basically, anything bigger than one square in size.AoEs are easier, because those are usually a radius, but size is almost impossible.

EvilElitest
2008-03-07, 09:05 PM
Bah, i'm with Malthus, World peace is over rated
from
EE

SillyRobot
2008-03-07, 09:06 PM
The problem is that squares are completely arbitrary. It's just as easy to pick up the square marker, spin it so it lines up to where you want to go, and move your little guy. Or just say it moves 20" on the board. There's no real reason for 4 directions to take longer to move in than the other four.

Let's go back to my example of a triangle 30' north by 30' east.

You certainly could "spin the grid" 45 degrees fo the column lines up with where you want to go. And there would be 8 or 9 squares from the first point to the target, not 6.

The 42 feet you walked back to the beginning is the shortest way to travel that distance -- pointing the grid in different directions won't change it.

It's not that making diagonals count 1-2-1-2 made them arbitrarily longer than moving on the grid. It is more that squares on a diagonal are actually farther from you than squares which share an edge.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-07, 09:18 PM
That diagonal things count as being further is annoying, but it's easier than constantly having to calculate hypoteni.

If you were using a computer, it probably wouldn't be too hard.

Fhaolan
2008-03-07, 09:36 PM
Hexes, grids, pthhh...

A tape and a protractor. If you're feeling really spiffy, make cardboard templates for the area of effect spells.

'course, I'm an old school wargamer at heart. If it's not on a sandtable, it's not tactical. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-07, 09:41 PM
Hexes, grids, pthhh...

A tape and a protractor. If you're feeling really spiffy, make cardboard templates for the area of effect spells.

'course, I'm an old school wargamer at heart. If it's not on a sandtable, it's not tactical. :smallbiggrin:That's how my group plays, though we don't even need rulers.:smallbiggrin:

AKA_Bait
2008-03-07, 09:57 PM
They're not mutually exclusive, at all. All it is, is priorities. And it's hardly useful 100% of the time.


Once again. Rutee makes sense.


I'm pretty sure 4th edition will also let us know if P= NP or P =\= NP too.

(If you don't understand, here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Np_completeness) a link to the Wikipedia you can read, and still not understand)

Huh. That is poorly explained. I'm going to try to finish up the So You Wanna Be a DM article this weekend but I might try to make that clearer next week.


4th Edition is only going to cure cancer and create world peace in order to appeal to more MMO players.

This just made me snort... well... an alcoholic beverage to be named later.


I'm just wondering how hard it will be to house rule this into hexes. They really do make life easier. Pretty much my only gripe with 4E.

Not hard at all. Just say it and it is. Since one of the funidmental axioms of geometry went out the window I don't see how players can complain about 'realism.' I've preferred hexes for years.


Bah, i'm with Malthus, World peace is over rated
from
EE

Except, you know, Malthus was a bloddy idiot who's concepts relied on hundreds of years outdated politics and economic theory.

Edit: Well that and the theory has been used to justify much evil.


That diagonal things count as being further is annoying, but it's easier than constantly having to calculate hypoteni.

If you were using a computer, it probably wouldn't be too hard.

Shssh. Don't give them ideas.

Vectner
2008-03-07, 10:02 PM
And I'll be darned if that doesn't simulate reality!

Chuck Norris once punched a man in the soul.

Rofl!:smallbiggrin:

Indon
2008-03-08, 02:44 AM
As you can see from this quote and the other on that page, D&D 4th Edition will Cure Cancer and Create World Peace. Ending World Hunger is slated for after the first expansion.

So they're scrapping the rules on diseases and don't plan to release a 4.0 version of Heroes of Battle, then they're going to remove the need for rations?

:P

I can't say I like the direction of the system, and I can't say I want to do Wizard's job by appending everything I need to the system, so it'll depend on how well they do everything else if I deem the effort to be worth it.

This ultimately doesn't tell us anything about Wizards' design intent that we haven't seen before in rules snippets they've released prior.

EvilElitest
2008-03-09, 10:29 PM
Except, you know, Malthus was a bloddy idiot who's concepts relied on hundreds of years outdated politics and economic theory.

Edit: Well that and the theory has been used to justify much evil.r
we don't talk about that
from
EE

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-03-10, 07:48 PM
I'm just wondering how hard it will be to house rule this into hexes.
Addressed in Unearthed Arcana, and since Unearthed Arcana contains Open Game Content, most of it is available online (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedFacing.html#hex-grid).

FoeHammer
2008-03-10, 08:20 PM
Sadly, we'll have to wait for 5th Edition for the Theory of Everything. :smallfrown:

Actually I think version 4.2 will have the answer you seek...:smalltongue:

Guildorn Tanaleth
2008-03-10, 09:20 PM
Not hard at all. Just say it and it is. Since one of the funidmental axioms of geometry went out the window I don't see how players can complain about 'realism.'

If you're referring to the Pythagorean theorem, that's not an axiom. It's mathematically provable in dozens of ways.

On topic, I've heard that 4e will eliminate all pedantic lurkers.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-03-10, 09:46 PM
On topic, I've heard that 4e will eliminate all pedantic lurkers.
Dammit! Now, I'm definitely not converting! How can I strike horror in my players' hearts without a good ol' CR 17 Pedantic Lurker?

Anon-a-mouse
2008-03-10, 11:26 PM
The actual ratio of the diagonal to the side of the square is an irrational number. (I could prove it if you like). Since you can only move in whole squares, accurately measuring diagonal moves is impossible over any distance. So you might as well use something quick and wrong as something time consuming and wrong.

Roland St. Jude
2008-03-10, 11:53 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: If someone seriously wants to have a geometry discussion, please feel free to open a new thread. But please no more sarcastic 4e threads.