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TheThan
2008-03-07, 01:55 PM
Ok hypothetical situation.

Suppose I have a rogue with improved grapple. Suppose this rogue sneaks up behind bad guy #248 and started a grapple. Assuming he succeeds and manages to pin his opponent. I want to know if this rouge can deliver sneak attack damage?

Now according to the rules a pinned creature is immobile, not helpless. Does an immobile character get his dex bonus to AC?

RandomLunatic
2008-03-07, 02:05 PM
The only real difference between immobile and helpless targets is that the latter can be CDGed.

So yes, immobile targets are denied DEX, and are therefore sneak-attackable.

Zincorium
2008-03-07, 02:10 PM
Ok hypothetical situation.

Suppose I have a rogue with improved grapple. Suppose this rogue sneaks up behind bad guy #248 and started a grapple. Assuming he succeeds and manages to pin his opponent. I want to know if this rouge can deliver sneak attack damage?

Now according to the rules a pinned creature is immobile, not helpless. Does an immobile character get his dex bonus to AC?

Immobile doesn't appear to be an actual game term, rather it's literal meaning comes into play where they can't move I suppose.

Considering that the target still gets their dexterity bonus against the attacker when grappled, and pinning doesn't specifically change that, it's unlikely that you'd be able to sneak attack them.

Glyphic
2008-03-07, 02:22 PM
Immoblie or similar condition was explained in Tome of Magic. Essentially, the target can't move from it's 5'ft cylinder/rectangular cube, since flying creatures are allowed to descend at 20ft a round, controlled (or hover if they want/can)

Kinda like don't move from FFT.


From the SRD


If Youíre Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While youíre pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponentís option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but youíre still grappling.

TheThan
2008-03-07, 02:24 PM
Now I came upon both of those conclusions myself. Which is why I brought it up here.

Grug
2008-03-07, 02:32 PM
If it were me, I'd allow it. Maybe add a feat that lets you sneak attack while grappling. Slit someone's throat?

Iku Rex
2008-03-07, 02:34 PM
The Rules Compendium Excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/RulesCompendium/RC_Grappling.zip) has the latest errata on grapple.


If You’re Pinning
A pinned opponent is at your mercy. However, while pinning,
you don’t have quite the freedom that you did while
grappling. You can attempt to damage your opponent with
an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your
opponent’s weapon, or you can attempt to move the grapple
(all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned
opponent from speaking.
You can remove or grab away a secured object worn by a
pinned opponent by making a disarm attempt (see page 45). The
opponent gets a +4 bonus on its roll to resist your attempt.
You can release a pinned opponent as a free action. If you
do so, you’re no longer considered to be grappling that foe
(and vice versa). You fi nish by moving into any unoccupied
space adjacent to that in which you were grappling.
You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned creature
or any other creature), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a
spell component, pin another creature, or break another’s
pin while you’re pinning an opponent.

If You’re Pinned
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held stationary
(but not helpless) for 1 round. You can’t take any actions the
creature pinning you doesn’t allow, even speaking. While
you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against
opponents other than the one pinning you. You can’t move,
so your Dexterity is considered to be 0 for the purpose of
determining AC (–5 modifier). You’re also subject to attacks,
such as sneak attacks, that rely on a defender’s being denied
its Dexterity bonus to AC.
To escape, you can make an Escape Artist check in place
of a grapple check, but doing this requires a standard action.
If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

Zincorium
2008-03-07, 02:37 PM
Effing rules compendium. This kind of thing should definitely have been in the errata for the PHB, saving it for another book is just lame on their part.

Person_Man
2008-03-07, 02:37 PM
Actually, you don't apply Sneak Attack to Grapple Checks. Sneak Attack requires an attack. Grapple is an opposed check. You can't even use Power Attack or Combat Expertise with Grapple. If you take the Savage Grapple feat (Comp Adv), you can apply Sneak Attack to your Grapple damage when in a Wild Shape. Otherwise, it doesn't work.

Also, when Grappled you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC against opponents you arenít grappling. But can still use it against opponents you are grappling. Same deal for your enemy.

So, nothing about being Grappled makes your enemy qualified for Sneak Attack from you anyway. Though if someone else were Grappling the enemy, your attacks against them would qualify.

However, you could Grapple your enemy, Pin them, and then attack them at a -4 penalty with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon. Being Pinned removes the target's Dex bonus. And since you'd be using the attack action, it qualifies for Sneak Attack. But that's a lot to go through - by the time you get all that done the enemy should have been dead anyway.