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Traker
2008-03-08, 10:34 AM
Why do mages most of the cool things. The only thing fighters get relly is bonus feats. Fighters are the only class that can't have magic everyone else in the players hand book gets some magic.:roy: :roy: :roy:

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-08, 10:38 AM
If everyone could use magic, there wouldn't be as much of a difference between the classes (also, learning magic takes years of training, and non-mages don't have the time needed to study to the necessary degree to et good at it on top of training in their own class). Excluding UMD, how do other classes get magic unless they have spellcasting ability?

Kaelaroth
2008-03-08, 10:45 AM
The point is that fighters don't get magic. And that mages do. If you want magic, be one of the more spellcasting oriented fighting classes.

Raistlin1040
2008-03-08, 10:48 AM
Actually, only 7 classes get magic, and only 4-5 are effective enough with it to be useful. Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard at lower levels.

Rangers, Paladins, and Bards at higher levels aren't exactly masters of magic. Whenever I play a Ranger or Paladin, I use the no-spellcasting variant from Complete Warrior. As for why Fighters only get feats, it's like this. A Ranger is a stealthy warrior, who hides in the underbrush, attacking enemies he's studied forever. Paladins are holy warriors, and their gods grant them power. Rogues are quick and dirty warriors. Monks have honed their skills for years in order to be (somewhat) effective warriors.

What have Fighters done? Fight, fight, fight, lunch, fight some more? They haven't really done a lot of training, and to be honest, the class is a little generic in my opinion. However, if the fighter got nothing but BAB and save increases every level, no one would ever take it. So he gets bonus feats, to show that during his travels he's learned an additional way to fight.

As a closing statement, the squishy wizard, and less squishy but still vulnerable cleric would be lost without a fighter. At higher levels, a Wizard does deal more damage. But he also would take more damage, not having the Fighter's AC. A Fighter's job at high levels is to wound the enemy, but more importantly, protect those that can heal the team and wound the enemy more.

TheThan
2008-03-08, 11:15 AM
Its not that wizards by default are overpowered. It’s that they can be overpowered by picking certain spells and feats. It’s one of those things you have to know how to do before you can be really good at it.


And who said a fighter hasn’t honed his fighting skills the way a monk has. The difference is that monks have a form of pseudo-spirituality while a fighter is purely martial (hence the higher attack bonus, hit dice and fort save).

TempusCCK
2008-03-08, 11:30 AM
The problem with Raistlins assertation is that he's saying Wizards need protectors. At higher levels with the proper build and spell choices, a Wizard needs no fighter around. He can survive with the simple fact that he has a Foresight on to know whenever he's going to be attacked, and a Contingent Teleport to make him suddenly remove himself from the battlefield if he feels he's not able to survive. Sure, there are ways to stop this, but you need to be a caster of a higher or equal level for most things to work. And that's only a couple of tricks the Wizard has.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 12:16 PM
Raistlin, I think you need to pay more attention to the arguments which quite possibly spawned this conversation. The general point is that in D&D (to use something you are assumably quite familiar with) A properly built Raistlin (IE SuperWizard) would never actually need Caramon's help ever, because he already has the buffs up that make him nigh invulnerable, and he's flying at all times, and he can disable anything in one-two rounds. Caramon is just a liability.

TheThan
2008-03-08, 12:21 PM
The problem with Raistlins assertation is that he's saying Wizards need protectors. At higher levels with the proper build and spell choices, a Wizard needs no fighter around. He can survive with the simple fact that he has a Foresight on to know whenever he's going to be attacked, and a Contingent Teleport to make him suddenly remove himself from the battlefield if he feels he's not able to survive. Sure, there are ways to stop this, but you need to be a caster of a higher or equal level for most things to work. And that's only a couple of tricks the Wizard has.

Exactly
A twinked out mage can go adventuring and never need the help of anyone. However you have to pick the right spells and know when and how to use them in order to do it.

Raum
2008-03-08, 12:21 PM
Why do mages most of the cool things.Because mages buy books! :smallamused:

Raistlin1040
2008-03-08, 01:25 PM
Raistlin, I think you need to pay more attention to the arguments which quite possibly spawned this conversation. The general point is that in D&D (to use something you are assumably quite familiar with) A properly built Raistlin (IE SuperWizard) would never actually need Caramon's help ever, because he already has the buffs up that make him nigh invulnerable, and he's flying at all times, and he can disable anything in one-two rounds. Caramon is just a liability.

Frankly, most people I've played with are not powergamers. We don't spend hours leafing through our Spell Compendiums to make a SuperWizard. I have never seen a wizard in actual play that had a spell for every occasion. Yes, with the right spells, a Wizard is almost unkillable. But, with the right combination of feats, items, and a buff or two, a Fighter can have super spell resistance, and kill the Wizard.

I believe that some of the wizard's power at higher levels is making up for their weakness at lower levels.

I am a 1st level wizard. My best spell is magic missile. I can kill most mooks with it, but I can only cast it a few times a day. One or two strikes from a kobold will knock me unconcious. I am a liability to my team.

I am a 1st level fighter. I can deal the same amount of damage with my sword as the wizard can with his spells, if not more. I miss occasionally, but not often. I can protect my teammates, and take some hit. I am useful.

It's about levels and the player. You might customize your wizard into being able to kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon by himself at 12th level. Most people don't play like that. That's why I avoid optimization boards and builds like the plague. Because I don't want to be a God. I'd rather be a wizard who is useful sometimes, and useless others.

edit: And really, what is properly built? I mean, do you need to optimize your character at every spell level, plan out a path for what feats and spells he will take every level to be built right? No. Being built right means in my opinion, being a member of the team who is fun to play, and contributes to the team.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 01:32 PM
Sorry, but...

You HONESTLY think SR will stop wizards? Two words for you: Solid fog. Further three words: Orb of sound.

Raistlin1040
2008-03-08, 01:43 PM
Again, over-optimization. Good SR will stop most wizards from using a good chunk of their better spells. Really, this whole discussion depends upon theoretical or experimental wizards.

Theoretically, Wizards are amazing. They can kill anything with some spell from a book none of us have ever heard of.

In reality, what player is going to spend 20-30 dollars on a book for one spell? I use PHB and Spell Compendium for all my spells. That's it. But if the guy next to me pulls out ten books, and starts writing down spells from all of them, I would be suprised.

Just my experiance.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 01:46 PM
I repeat: Solid Fog. In the PHB. I Win button. No SR. Creation subtype.

Or, if you want another one: Evard's black tentacles. No SR. PHB. I Win button.

Another one? Overland flight. Hours duration. PHB. I Win button.

I could go on like this all day long. Just face it, a Wizard must actively gimp himself to avoid making at least ONE right choice and getting an I Win button.

Raistlin1040
2008-03-08, 01:51 PM
I could spend hours debating how much is wrong with that mindset, but because of how this discussion has gone so far, I'll end with this.

I'm going to go make an optimized Cleric.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 01:59 PM
Divine power, much? I don't play cheese too, but when you see it, you have to believe it. And I was the kind of guy who though evoking should be the only school you should pick if you specialize.

Kizara
2008-03-08, 02:00 PM
Glitterdust

2nd level AoE Disable, also makes hiding and magical invisiblity impossible.

Knock.

2nd Level spell that makes one of the iconic rogue skills utterly obsolete.

Rope Trick.

Hide out in extradinemsional space? No more night ambushes? Let's also marginalize high-perception characters like barb/rogue/ranger.

Ray of Enfeeblement

No save instantly marginalize melee? Thanks.

Displacement

50% Miss chance >>>>> High AC anyday.

Greese.

Flatfooted unless you have 5 ranks in balance? Find me a monster that actually has 5 ranks in balance. Now realize how long that took you. Now find me a PC that does.

Magic Missile

No save, no attack roll, hits practically everything? It might not be Solid Fog, but it owns.

Solid Fog

Covered already.

Polymorph

I mean, this spell is so made of broken, I don't know how to explain it. You can take the form of basically anything. Only thing nearly this cheap is Wild Shape, and that's a major class ability.

Alter Self

Actually read what this spell can do, it's not "improved disguise self" it's cheese-in-a-can.

And that's not even high-level stuff!

EDIT: Don't get me started on Clerics and Druids. At least a wizard generally has a different party role then the fighter, wheras CoDzilla has the same role, plus many others, plus are strong casters, plus have nifty options, and are far, far better melee presences.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-08, 02:03 PM
Regarding 1st Level Wizards: I know it needs a saving throw, but isn't Colour Spray a much better offensive spell? (There's a good chance hat Magic Missile would fail to kill the weakest enemies due to it only doing 2-5 HPs of damage).

Sonar009
2008-03-08, 02:03 PM
Barbarians don't use magic. Anyway, yes, magic is powerful. SO IS SLICING OPEN YOUR ENEMIES AT THE STOMACH. Besides, I don't think there are any spells that disable traps, at least not in core.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 02:04 PM
Or, to see what REALLY happens when The Cheese Stands Alone: Polymorph. Any. Object. Create blackholes or easily become a prismatic dragon much?

Kizara
2008-03-08, 02:08 PM
Regarding 1st Level Wizards: I know it needs a saving throw, but isn't Colour Spray a much better offensive spell? (There's a good chance hat Magic Missile would fail to kill the weakest enemies due to it only doing 2-5 HPs of damage).

You're right, but the point is at level 5 you can do 3d4+3 damage automatically with a basic spell even against evasive targets (such as incorporal undead).

It doesn't have that much raw power, but its really solid.

Chronos
2008-03-08, 02:10 PM
I am a 1st level wizard. My best spell is magic missile. I can kill most mooks with it, but I can only cast it a few times a day. One or two strikes from a kobold will knock me unconcious. I am a liability to my team.No, that's your worst spell. Your best spell is Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, or maybe Enlarge Person. The fighter does more damage than you only because wizards aren't for dealing damage. But what does the fighter's damage get him? He can take out one kobold a round, two if he took Cleave. The wizard, meanwhile, can take out a half-dozen kobolds a round.

Back on topic, at least part of the reason that wizards are overpowered is that many players expect them to be. When a wizard does amazing and wondrous things, people just nod their heads and say "of course". But when a rogue does amazing and wondrous things (which, by the rules as written, they can, and without even the chance for failure that wizards have), people say "Well, that's obviously nonsensical, because nobody could do that without magic", and houserule away the things they can do.

Bryn
2008-03-08, 02:20 PM
I am a 1st level wizard. My best spell is magic missile. I can kill most mooks with it, but I can only cast it a few times a day. One or two strikes from a kobold will knock me unconcious. I am a liability to my team.

For a 1st level Wizard, Magic Missile is a terrible spell. Damage spells in general aren't worth it, according to the wise words of the Logic Ninja, and this is especially true with Magic Missile.

You'd be much better off to take either Sleep or Colour Spray. Since most of your enemies are low level, sleep will knock four of them out immediately (assuming you've pumped your Will DC properly, either through a high INT or feats like Spell Focus), which could very easily end the encounter right there. Colour Spray is similar for nearby enemies, and it remains useful for longer. Both of them will completely incapacitate the enemy on a failed save, allowing you to coup de grace them at your leisure.

I'm not going to argue about balance at high levels, but a low-level wizard, while lacking in hitpoints, can still do useful things with their spells.

Edit: Hey look, it's a ninja! Really! Just there!

Eldmor
2008-03-08, 02:34 PM
First off, a proper wizard should never just be dealing damage. Other people can deal damage. It's a waste of a spell slot when a martial-type can do the exact same thing in a round without expending resources.
Also, some of the most powerful spells are in CORE. Solid Fog, Time Stop, Forcecage, and Righteous Might to name a few. The problem isn't the books, it's the system. 4e is the big, red "RESET" button on casters with the near elimination of Vancian casting. (Wizards choosing their Daily power is the only remnant.) Hopefully then; all classes will be balanced until the new flavor of ubercheese is revealed.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-08, 02:34 PM
I am a 1st level wizard. My best spell is magic missile. I can kill most mooks with it, but I can only cast it a few times a day. One or two strikes from a kobold will knock me unconcious. I am a liability to my team.

Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daze.htm). A Will Save Or Suck cantrip.

Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm): 20% chance of missing me in melee. 50% at range or with reach. Beats the Fighter's AC 20.

Summon Monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm). I summon a Fiendish Small Monstrous Spider. It webs you. Suddenly, I've provided a better tank than the fighter.

Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm). Reflex Save or Prone every round. You can't hit me if you can't reach me.

Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm). I now have a meat shield.

Color Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm). Will Save or Lose Instantly.

Cause Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/causeFear.htm). Wil Save or Lose Instantly. Then on my next turn, make another Will Save and lose anyway.

Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm). You lose 1d6+1 Strength. No Save.

Oh, and before I forget..

Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm). I do all this and look damn good while doing it.


Barbarians don't use magic. Anyway, yes, magic is powerful. SO IS SLICING OPEN YOUR ENEMIES AT THE STOMACH. Besides, I don't think there are any spells that disable traps, at least not in core.

Shatter. Why disable it when you can break it?

TempusCCK
2008-03-08, 02:42 PM
The only way to limit wizard power is limiting the amount of spells that they hae available to them. Sure they can just go to Joes Magic Emporium and pick up new spells for every level, or they can spend weeks creating new spells, bartering with other casters to trade spells, or finding scrolls of spells in the dungeon.

That being said, I like Magic Missle, it's iconic and the ability to hit someone anytime can be useful. "What do you mean they're leaping toward me over rooftops?! Next time he jumps I'm going to hit him with Magic Missle Midair!" Needless to say, someone plummeted to their doom.

Eldmor
2008-03-08, 02:54 PM
That being said, I like Magic Missle, it's iconic and the ability to hit someone anytime can be useful. "What do you mean they're leaping toward me over rooftops?! Next time he jumps I'm going to hit him with Magic Missle Midair!" Needless to say, someone plummeted to their doom.

Except Magic Missile has no notation of it causing a penalty to Jump or hindering a person's movement. As cool as you think it might sound [summons Morbo]
MAGIC MISSILE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!
There's also this thing that hits almost every time called a ranged touch attack.

FlyMolo
2008-03-08, 03:09 PM
Pity it doesn't, though.

But in order to build a super-wizard, you only have to leaf through core.

In order to build a wizard capable of casting an infinite number of spells instantaneously, you need to leaf through several splatbooks.

TempusCCK
2008-03-08, 03:18 PM
Prepare for Catgirl killing (Good riddance says I).

In a game with realistic physics, or rather, physics similar to ours in our world, little projectiles of solid (whatever) smashing into you forcefully in the middle of a jump are going to neutralize the original force of your jump by pushing on you in a direction opposite of where the force was coming from.

In this particular instance, the jumper was coming at me, the magic missles were heading for him. Cast by a 10th level Caster, that's 5 missles each doing 1d4+1 damage. For an average of 15 damage, something that's equal to average 15 damage would be swinging a greatsword for 6.5 average damage with a STR mod of 3 and power attacking for 3. Would you say a fighter with a fly spell hanging in mid air would be able to swing his sword at the person jumping past him, roll average damage and powering attacking for 3 wouldn't cause that guy to not make his jump?

The fact that you made the argument that because it's not in the spells spell description it doesn't work in such a way saddens the realm of Logic, and all it's happy citizens.

You made Logic cry, I hope you're happy.

Eldmor
2008-03-08, 03:43 PM
Prepare for Catgirl killing (Good riddance says I).

In a game with realistic physics, or rather, physics similar to ours in our world, little projectiles of solid (whatever) smashing into you forcefully in the middle of a jump are going to neutralize the original force of your jump by pushing on you in a direction opposite of where the force was coming from.

In this particular instance, the jumper was coming at me, the magic missles were heading for him. Cast by a 10th level Caster, that's 5 missles each doing 1d4+1 damage. For an average of 15 damage, something that's equal to average 15 damage would be swinging a greatsword for 6.5 average damage with a STR mod of 3 and power attacking for 3. Would you say a fighter with a fly spell hanging in mid air would be able to swing his sword at the person jumping past him, roll average damage and powering attacking for 3 wouldn't cause that guy to not make his jump?

The fact that you made the argument that because it's not in the spells spell description it doesn't work in such a way saddens the realm of Logic, and all it's happy citizens.

You made Logic cry, I hope you're happy.

Except nowhere does it say that the Magic Missiles have any mass. I always imagined them as purplish bolts that dissipated upon contact inflicting harmful energy.
If you want something resembling realistic physics, don't base it in D&D. Physics are broken many, many times on a daily basis.

TempusCCK
2008-03-08, 03:54 PM
They have the Force descriptor and are described as tiny bolts of Force energy.

If they were as you described them it would be something akin to a negative energy spell, and most evidence from the RAW would suggest otherwise. Of course, you could homebrew it that way if you wanted, which would be kind of cool....

As to your physics thing, I'm not walking into a debate about real life physics being broken, we can obviously see that if you put something forcefully into something else it will cause an opposite reaction. Tiny bolts of pure Force energy (other spells with the force description are described as solid, impentrable magical effects, see Wall of Force or Forcecage) are going to interfere with someone who's made a jump in a D&D campaign where energy and gravity work similar to how they do in real life. Fortunately for us, most campaigns do work in such a way, I would think, and it is the best basis for comparison for a theorhetical discussion such as this.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-08, 03:55 PM
Why do mages most of the cool things. The only thing fighters get relly is bonus feats. Fighters are the only class that can't have magic everyone else in the players hand book gets some magic.:roy: :roy: :roy:

Because mages are nerds and Fighters are jocks, and D&D is a game written for nerds by nerds.

Chronos
2008-03-08, 05:23 PM
Even if you grant that Magic Missiles have momentum, though, we still have no idea how much momentum they have. We know how much damage they do, but that doesn't help, since bullets do more damage than magic missiles, but a bullet doesn't have nearly enough momentum to knock a person back significantly. And even if they do have significant momentum, is it significant enough? If I roll a 20 on my check to jump over a two-foot gap, is the missile enough to stop me? What if my roll is good enough to clear a gap by five feet, or ten feet? Just how much does a Magic Missile knock me back?

Demented
2008-03-08, 05:35 PM
Of course, wizards hate it when someone rolls a 20 on their save.


Physics
...Does not apply in 3rd edition. It (D&D) is a self-contained ruleset based on probability, squares, turns, and tables of referential information. Hence why said level 10 mage will never fall to the ground screaming when an acid arrow melts his face off.

You can expand the ruleset as you like, but personal changes to it are not iconic.

Furthermore, houserules and DM fixing don't apply in theoretical discussions. It's not that hard for a DM to stop an overpowered wizard, and overpowered wizards aren't that likely to pop up in situations where the other characters aren't similarly overpowered (admittedly, the fighter would need to multiclass), but that would only enter into a practical discussion.

Cuddly
2008-03-08, 05:36 PM
I repeat: Solid Fog. In the PHB. I Win button. No SR. Creation subtype.

What does this actually do for you? Buy you a couple more rounds to put up buffs, or run away? It doesn't actually *defeat* anything. It's a battlefield control spell, not a win button.


Or, if you want another one: Evard's black tentacles. No SR. PHB. I Win button.

For its levels 7-9, it can be pretty good. Once you start fighting huge monsters, its useful decreases. Grapple checks are probably the easiest things monsters can routinely make.


Another one? Overland flight. Hours duration. PHB. I Win button.

This is good, in that it lasts all day, and as soon as a fight breaks out, you can fly away and turn invisible, then cast fly on yourself. The average maneuverability of overland flight means you have to take a move action every turn flying around and stuff. It's a good spell, but then, it's 5th level. When you first get it, casting it every day means you've used up a third of your 5th level spells or so.


I could go on like this all day long. Just face it, a Wizard must actively gimp himself to avoid making at least ONE right choice and getting an I Win button.

None of those were really win buttons, though. Regardless, they're a hell of a lot better than the 11 bonus feats a fighter gets.

In my experience, a fighter is required to actually do the damage after batman wizard shuts down the opposition with control spells and save-or-sucks. Wizards don't bother doing damage because fighters do it better, and it's about the only thing a fighter can do. Straight out of core, a wizard can shut down a whole battlefield with a single, well placed spell. Figthers can't do anything like that. Therefore, in a party of four, it's best for the wizard to focus on the powerful control and buffs/debuffs that only he has. At higher levels, of course, the wizard has so many options, metamagics, and spell slots that he can start filling in other party members' roles.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 05:47 PM
Most of this has been covered but, Spell Resist? Any decent Wizard can get around that, especially since aside from a spellcaster, any spell resist he gets is going to be very likely to fail anyway. That aside, so many no SR ways to deal with problems.

2) Level 1=Color Spray/Sleep=3-5 enemies down per round. Welcome to the Wizard being able to solo the Fighter from level one.

3) You said the Wizard needs protecting. The Wizard doesn't, he has protections, they are called flying/invisible/miss chances. All of these are better then AC or HP. Not to mention things like immunity. This isn't super optimization either. Fly is every Wizard, not only super ones. And all you ten books nonsense. Every spell I've ever used has been PHB or Spell Compendium, though the game I'm currently in I intend to include Complete Scoundrel.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-08, 07:02 PM
First off, a proper wizard should never just be dealing damage. Other people can deal damage.

It seems to me that a wizard can either (1) compete with the fighter in the damage department, or (2) complement the fighter by doing something different.

Excluding pure pwnage, the latter seems to be more fun for the team. If the two of us are doing the same thing, chances are either of us is upstaging the other.

strayth
2008-03-08, 07:49 PM
Sorry, but...

You HONESTLY think SR will stop wizards? Two words for you: Solid fog. Further three words: Orb of sound.

Or anything with geology modification. SR isn't a parachute if the wizard actually drops the ground beneath you or summons a rock over your head.

It's why I take an active role in harrying the mages in my group, should they occur. Clerics catch flak from their churches, wizards have to take very careful notice of their stuff, druid have a loyalty to the grove and so on.

The fighter makes for fewer ways to encumber (though appropriately I do enforce encumbrance and armor donning rules), and just aren't that easily tied down. I do this actively because I think the real trick behind balancing some things is to make an effort that isn't number-fudging or adjusting values.

Not that I recommend punishing players for playing something powerful; I use the methods as checks against them.

Weiser_Cain
2008-03-08, 08:27 PM
When you spit in your hands and walk over to singlehandedly slay a dragon with your spare sword you won't miss magic so much.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-08, 08:45 PM
Besides, I don't think there are any spells that disable traps, at least not in core.
Unseen Servant. Just make sure to pack a big Bag o Rocks (100 pounds). See, the Unseen Servant can drag that much - and if you pick a small race, this means the unseen servant will trigger all mechanical traps that you will. Hours/level duration, so you're not just clearing the corridor. Combine with Detect Magic (or later, Arcane Sight) and you find all magic traps, too. Then all you need is some way to disable the trap or get around it - and there's notes in Core about disabling a trap manually.


They have the Force descriptor and are described as tiny bolts of Force energy.
Yet, for some reason, they do exactly nothing vs. objects....

Doomsy
2008-03-08, 08:54 PM
Wizards run out of spells.
After a few level-appropriate encounters or waves of enemies, the wizard is FORCED to retreat, back off, or find some way to recover spells. Once his spells are out or nearly out, he is nothing but a victim in waiting. He has to retreat because without spells, he is utterly useless.
Fighters never run out of hitting people.
If he has healing, he can keep going until he is absolutely dragged down and even then might take a few with him.
Barbarians can frenzy, but even after they run out of those they are still capable of putting up a fight.
Same for Cleric and Druid.

I'd say the big trade-off is endurance. Yes, a prepared wizard can take on anything. It's when the anything comes in waves and they can't just run away and recover for hours that the cracks start showing. Secondly. If they're prepared against one thing, they're not optimized against others - especially if the DM has decided to be tricky.

You can make the wizard be uber against anything, but against everything - that is when I have to say no. A competent fighter is ALWAYS a competent fighter. A generalist mage is going to be useful most of the time. A specialist uber mage is going to have a weak spot. It's just a matter of finding the proper tactic to cripple the diva. It's easier to down one mage with dreams of of omnipotence than a Batman powering his entire team.
Wait.
Isn't that like, 80 percent of fantasy plots right there? :)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 08:57 PM
HOOHOOOHAHAHAHAHAHAHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEHOHOHO HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHHOHOHOHOHBWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHBWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Really funny thing to say, doomsy! Best comedic post of the year!

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-08, 09:07 PM
Wizards run out of spells.
After a few level-appropriate encounters or waves of enemies, the wizard is FORCED to retreat, back off, or find some way to recover spells. Once his spells are out or nearly out, he is nothing but a victim in waiting. He has to retreat because without spells, he is utterly useless.
Fighters never run out of hitting people.
If he has healing, he can keep going until he is absolutely dragged down and even then might take a few with him.
Barbarians can frenzy, but even after they run out of those they are still capable of putting up a fight.
Same for Cleric and Druid.

I'd say the big trade-off is endurance. Yes, a prepared wizard can take on anything. It's when the anything comes in waves and they can't just run away and recover for hours that the cracks start showing. Secondly. If they're prepared against one thing, they're not optimized against others - especially if the DM has decided to be tricky.

You can make the wizard be uber against anything, but against everything - that is when I have to say no. A competent fighter is ALWAYS a competent fighter. A generalist mage is going to be useful most of the time. A specialist uber mage is going to have a weak spot. It's just a matter of finding the proper tactic to cripple the diva. It's easier to down one mage with dreams of of omnipotence than a Batman powering his entire team.
Wait.
Isn't that like, 80 percent of fantasy plots right there? :)

The last time I ran out of spells when playing a batman wizard was in an endurance challenge. And that was after 2 days of continuous fighting. And I was the last person alive.

I can make a wizard that can be uber against everything. And I don't even need poke'ball abuse to do it.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-08, 09:13 PM
Incidentally, part of the reason that no SR spells are so good, particularly those with the creation subtype, is that things generally immune to magic aren't immune to them. So Solid Fog works on golems and such, and an anti-magic field doesn't get rid of it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-08, 09:14 PM
Yeah. Two words: Rope trick.

Further: Cast an undispelable portal to another plane on the entrance. Dimdoor down when you're done.

Jack_Simth
2008-03-08, 09:36 PM
Incidentally, part of the reason that no SR spells are so good, particularly those with the creation subtype, is that things generally immune to magic aren't immune to them. So Solid Fog works on golems and such, and an anti-magic field doesn't get rid of it.
An Anti-Magic field does get rid of Solid Fog, as it's not an Instant spell, although it does work on golems.

What's really fun, is using Greater Shadow Conjuration or Shades to produce a Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron. After doing so, you have a nonmagical wall that allows a Will save for partial effect and SR...

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-08, 09:52 PM
Part of it is because the writers just felt wizards should be more powerful.

The bigger part though is that they didn't see foresee the uses of certain spells...

... I hope.


Which in a way makes sense too. When your power is limited only by your imagination, the only limit is your imagination. In other words, in a battle of wizards, the creative one is probably going to be the winner.



I doubt they wanted them to be as powerful as the optimizers made them though.

Doomsy
2008-03-08, 10:06 PM
The last time I ran out of spells when playing a batman wizard was in an endurance challenge. And that was after 2 days of continuous fighting. And I was the last person alive.

I can make a wizard that can be uber against everything. And I don't even need poke'ball abuse to do it.


It was pretty much just sarcasm at that point, yeah. Or how I imagined the conversation went down with the designers before they did something godawful. On the plus side, I've never seen a super-wizard played with a DM that was actually on their toes.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-08, 10:50 PM
It was pretty much just sarcasm at that point, yeah. Or how I imagined the conversation went down with the designers before they did something godawful. On the plus side, I've never seen a super-wizard played with a DM that was actually on their toes.

That's a minus side right there. Playing a SuperWizard with a DM on their toes is the only time it's fun. If you play it when they aren't then you just walk all over them and make them cry.

ericgrau
2008-03-30, 09:21 PM
People think mages are so overpowered because the mage can do 1001 things uber well. He can nuke any situation you can mention. The problem with that logic? He didn't prepare the spell for that situation this morning. Oh but the wizard can make due with his other (ahem, not as good for that situation) spells, he can rest when he runs out, he can do this (but not well), he can be uber at that (but can't do it right now), he can, he can, he can. He can indeed. But he can't have it all at once.

While a good player can do better with a mage than other classes, and a tweaker or cheater can abuse him more easily, the game-world gulf between mages and non-mages isn't as wide as the forum-world makes it seem. And it'd be very difficult for a real party to do better with only mages than one that has a mix.

Mages are spectacular and interesting and popular. Fighters are not. That's the main reason for the supposed gulf. A lot of times people will even pick the martial-magic classes or martial-special classes over the pure martial ones, even though the mixed classes are usually weaker than both the pure martial and pure magic classes.

streakster
2008-03-30, 09:26 PM
Why are mages so overpowered? Because, for any given "that", the mage can indeed do that.

Enlong
2008-03-30, 09:31 PM
Why are mages overpowered? This is why:

"Hello, 5th level Wizard."
"Hello, 20th level Fighter."
"Not to sound unsporting, my caster chum, but I'd like to try fighting you."
"Ah, but my fighter friend, you would lose."
"Preposterous! I have 15 levels on you, how could you possibly stop me from winning?"
"Fly, Wind Wall"
"Well, crap."

Zincorium
2008-03-30, 09:42 PM
Basically, wizards are inherently min-maxed:

In a point based system, wizards would be the type of character who chose the absolute minimum base attack bonus, hit die, skill points, and weapon proficiency, one of the worse save progressions, and in return got multiple, powerful effects which could be swapped out on a day to day basis for an ever-growing list of other powerful abilities, and these abilities increased exponentially in value and uses as the character leveled up, and only needed one good ability score to make those abilities work well.

The game master would be right to look askance at your character sheet in a point based system and be dubious about letting you play something like that.

Solo
2008-03-30, 09:43 PM
Part of being Batman is that you could just prepare a general set of spells and be set for most encounters you will face.

If anyone wants proof, I shall present Ozymandias (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=4511)!

A sorcerer, with a fixed spell list, that demonstrates this point perfectly.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2008-03-30, 09:53 PM
Why are mages overpowered? This is why:

"Hello, 5th level Wizard."
"Hello, 20th level Fighter."
"Not to sound unsporting, my caster chum, but I'd like to try fighting you."
"Ah, but my fighter friend, you would lose."
"Preposterous! I have 15 levels on you, how could you possibly stop me from winning?"
"Fly, Wind Wall"
"Well, crap."Problem: 20th level characters have insane wealth-by-level. That 20th level fighter will actually have more magic than the 5th level mage. For instance, he can fly up and beat the hell out of Mr. 5th Level Wizard. He can probably even buy an unlimited use item of enervation and laugh as the wizard's puny five hit dice quickly wither away.

Anyway, in a normal, not-high-level campaign, the wizard might overpower a few encounters with area save-or-loses like a well-placed Stinking Cloud or Fear or Confusion, but since it's rarely the wizard's style to spam the same tactic over and over, he generally won't completely upstage his buddies. That's what CoDzillas are for. The point is, despite the power disparity between the nerds and the jocks (aptly put), the wizardly nerd at least keeps the other niches viable for most of the game.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-30, 09:54 PM
People think mages are so overpowered because the mage can do 1001 things uber well. He can nuke any situation you can mention. The problem with that logic? He didn't prepare the spell for that situation this morning. Oh but the wizard can make due with his other (ahem, not as good for that situation) spells, he can rest when he runs out, he can do this (but not well), he can be uber at that (but can't do it right now), he can, he can, he can. He can indeed. But he can't have it all at once.
This is actually one of the biggest fallacies concerning wizards in D&D. Really. I have 3 regular spell lists for a level 20 wizard, depending on how broken I feel like being and how the team is set up. With said generalist batman build I can solo 90% of the CR 20+ (non ELH) monsters in 3.5 in 1 round. And the ones I can't solo I can flee from easily.


Let's look at 2 spells that you can persist in various ways: Shapechange and Superior Invisibility.

Cast a persistent superior Invisibility and persistent Shapechange. Change into a Shadesteel Golem.

With just those 2 spells I have made it so nothing without True Seeing can detect me in any way and I have a perfect fly speed, immunity to all magic that allows SR, immunity to most SoD and Fort save requiring spells, immunity to all mind effecting spells, and a ton of other things.

Add in a persistent metal guard and no metal weapon can hurt me.

And on top of all that, even if you manage to kill me it was just an Astral Projection.


While a good player can do better with a mage than other classes, and a tweaker or cheater can abuse him more easily, the game-world gulf between mages and non-mages isn't as wide as the forum-world makes it seem. And it'd be very difficult for a real party to do better with only mages than one that has a mix.
And your wrong again. A pure caster party is the best party. Wizard, Archivist, Artificer, and Druid. 3 Incantatrix wizards of mine and an Archivist is even better.


Mages are spectacular and interesting and popular. Fighters are not. That's the main reason for the supposed gulf. A lot of times people will even pick the martial-magic classes or martial-special classes over the pure martial ones, even though the mixed classes are usually weaker than both the pure martial and pure magic classes.

Fighters and monks are popular, thats why people even bother to argue that they pull their own weight in high level games.

You are really better off at ECL 20 with a properly built solo wizard than you are with the same wizard and a fighter or monk.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-30, 09:55 PM
I invite anyone to post a CR 6 or CR 12 encounter that you would actually challenge your party with and I will attempt to single handily defeat it using whatever spells happened to have been prepared that day by: Tocar level 6 (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=1997) and Tocar level 12. (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=2018)

If you keep it sporting and don't through a bunch of Paragon animals and Dragons and other under CRed encounters, I'll try to take 4 in a row.

You can start a game thread and I'll join it.

The spells memed that day will change because they will hopefully be entering games soon.

I think it's more then fair to ask that you don't set up challenges directly to counter my spell lists and to not try to throw crazy CR templated messes at me, especially since the character has a significant portion of his power invested in out of combat potential and I'm showing you his memed spells for the day.

streakster
2008-03-30, 10:09 PM
And your wrong again. A pure caster party is the best party. Wizard, Archivist, Artificer, and Druid. 3 Incantatrix wizards of mine and an Archivist is even better.

Just a point, but if you have Incantrix wizards, toss in a Planar Shepherd druid. Now that's a party that can take on anything at all.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-30, 10:18 PM
Just a point, but if you have Incantrix wizards, toss in a Planar Shepherd druid. Now that's a party that can take on anything at all.

Archivist synergiezes better because they can persistent/chain or persistent/reach/chain or persist all the buffs they'll ever need. And they may not get SLAs, but they do get all Supernatural because they all shapechange.

In conclusion Persistent every spell in the game + A party of Superior Invisible Shadesteel Golems that can turn into dual action creatures as a free action beat everything.

Round 1a, Caught by surprise? Foresight, no you aren't? Magnanimous? Let them try to hurt you instead of casting Celerity.

Round 1b, If you somehow lost Init, and decided not to use Celerity, you might be down some HP, probably not though. Free action into dual action form of choice, Fire of 2-3 spells each.

Game over: Shift back to Shadesteel Golems.

Personally, I think it could be improved by adding a Wu-Jen Incantatrix. They have a spell that creates tons of copies of themselves, no spellcasting, but they do have SLAs, Ex, Su. That means you can create a whole bunch of copies, and then have them Persist/Extend/Chain all your spells.

And of course you'd gain access to another list of spells without giving up that much (you already have 2 other Wizards).

Ward.
2008-03-30, 10:30 PM
Because mages are nerds and Fighters are jocks, and D&D is a game written for nerds by nerds.

Thats the real answer right there.

streakster
2008-03-30, 10:41 PM
Stuff.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean "Instead of Archivist", I meant "Add along with Archivist". Just in case something comes along that the rest can't handle (yeah, right), he's the ace in the hole.

DM: "Ha! This can only be solved by one spell, and none of you prepared it today, so - "
Party: We'll - actually have to cast wish? No! Minor XP loss!"
PS:"Hang on a mo, guys."
*Solar*!
"Okay, I've got 20th level cleric casting and all my druid spells. What did we need again?"
DM:"I hate you."

Plus, a tank, still with full-casting. Yeah, toss in a Wu Jen and we're set to give gods wedgies.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-30, 10:50 PM
Just shapechange into a zodar, unlimited free wishes.

Yahzi
2008-03-30, 10:52 PM
I am a 1st level wizard. My best spell is magic missile.
No it isn't.

Try Sleep.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-30, 10:55 PM
Thats the real answer right there.

I'm surprised no one got there first.

I mean, in AD&D it was even more distinct. You started out as a one-magic-missile pansy that any "jock" could beat up, and then you wound up being able to SHOW THEM, SHOW THEM ALL, MWAHAHAHA.

Chronos
2008-03-30, 10:58 PM
With just those 2 spells I have made it so nothing without True Seeing can detect me in any wayAre Shadesteel Golems not subject to Listen and Spot? Yeah, it's epicly tough to pinpoint creatures that way, but if you just get the general area right, Glitterdust (or Dust of Appearing) offers neither save nor SR.

streakster
2008-03-30, 11:04 PM
Just shapechange into a zodar, unlimited free wishes.

True, but he can save them that minor inconvenience of casting that spell. Or, he can just make them all take 10 actions per the enemies one. That ought to be helpful.

ericgrau
2008-03-30, 11:29 PM
That's very nice y'all. How about you try a dungeon?

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-30, 11:32 PM
Are Shadesteel Golems not subject to Listen and Spot? Yeah, it's epicly tough to pinpoint creatures that way, but if you just get the general area right, Glitterdust (or Dust of Appearing) offers neither save nor SR.

Look up Superior Invisibility. Blindsight, tremorsense, nothing except True Seeing can detect them.

And the reason to turn into a shadsteel golem is for all the golem abilities and immunities plus a perfect fly speed and medium size.

Zincorium
2008-03-30, 11:37 PM
That's very nice y'all. How about you try a dungeon?

Stop.

Think for a second.

Would any person bother to even read this thread if they didn't play dungeons and dragons fairly often, and can thus be assumed to universally have gone through a great many of these dungeons.

Furthermore, have you looked at the spell lists of a wizard and looked at how versatile a wizard can be in the dungeon enviroment?

Like, passwall?

Dungeons are a large part of the 'why are mages overpowered'. A well-prepared wizard can turn a conventionally constructed dungeon into their own personal playground.

That is the rationale for about 90% of them even existing.

Solo
2008-03-30, 11:38 PM
I invite anyone to post a CR 6 or CR 12 encounter that you would actually challenge your party with and I will attempt to single handily defeat it using whatever spells happened to have been prepared that day by: Tocar level 6 (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=1997) and Tocar level 12. (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=2018)

If you keep it sporting and don't through a bunch of Paragon animals and Dragons and other under CRed encounters, I'll try to take 4 in a row.

You can start a game thread and I'll join it.

The spells memed that day will change because they will hopefully be entering games soon.

I think it's more then fair to ask that you don't set up challenges directly to counter my spell lists and to not try to throw crazy CR templated messes at me, especially since the character has a significant portion of his power invested in out of combat potential and I'm showing you his memed spells for the day.

Will there be any Polymorph abuse?

ericgrau
2008-03-30, 11:49 PM
I invite anyone to post a CR 6 or CR 12 encounter that you would actually challenge your party with and I will attempt to single handily defeat it using whatever spells happened to have been prepared that day by: Tocar level 6 (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=1997) and Tocar level 12. (http://www.roguepenguin.com/castellar/profiler/view.php?id=2018)

If you keep it sporting and don't through a bunch of Paragon animals and Dragons and other under CRed encounters, I'll try to take 4 in a row.

You can start a game thread and I'll join it.

The spells memed that day will change because they will hopefully be entering games soon.

I think it's more then fair to ask that you don't set up challenges directly to counter my spell lists and to not try to throw crazy CR templated messes at me, especially since the character has a significant portion of his power invested in out of combat potential and I'm showing you his memed spells for the day.

Thanks. I accept. These are all CR 6, selected via random clicking. Beat all 4 in order. Maybe someone else will take the time to post some CR 12 encounters.

Solitary Babau ambush, underground evil temple with pillars and other large features
3 dire wolves in forest, sniff you out, encircle at a distance and close in
4 Satyrs, in the wilderness, sneak up on you
1 young blue dragon, in the desert, comes at you from under the sand or in the sky (flip a coin?)

I'm off to read the level 6 character sheet now. I'll edit if I have any complaints.
EDIT: Well you have 3 flaws, when the standard 2 already boosts power a bit. And I know those flaws don't affect a mage much because I picked them too :smalltongue: The character was obviously made with access to splatbooks, and from that, the exact match to the standard wealth by level and the use of a grey elf I'll bet he is well optimized. The wide spread in stats with min scores of 8 makes me think you only got a base 18 int b/c of point buy, but oh well. I think CR 7 or CR 8 would be more appropriate for a 4 person party of optimized characters. I mean, even without splatbooks I can optimize a fighter that utterly annihilates his own CR (provided that, like most monsters, it walks and is tangible - but then again even 1 or 2 of the random examples may give him trouble with that). Then he can heal up and do it 3 more times. So what?

Maybe someone else will have the time to post some CR 8 encounters. But feel free to try out the CR 6 ones. Or I think 4 dire wolves and 5 satyrs are each CR 7, IIRC.

ericgrau
2008-03-30, 11:51 PM
Stop.

Think for a second.

Would any person bother to even read this thread if they didn't play dungeons and dragons fairly often, and can thus be assumed to universally have gone through a great many of these dungeons.

Furthermore, have you looked at the spell lists of a wizard and looked at how versatile a wizard can be in the dungeon enviroment?

Like, passwall?

Dungeons are a large part of the 'why are mages overpowered'. A well-prepared wizard can turn a conventionally constructed dungeon into their own personal playground.

That is the rationale for about 90% of them even existing.

I made absolutely no mention whatsoever of such things, and I believe all of this is your own fabrication. But since you have selective understanding, I will clarify. How about you all make your arguments within a dungeon, instead of talking about the wizard in duels etc.?

Zincorium
2008-03-31, 12:04 AM
I made absolutely no mention whatsoever of such things, and I believe all of this is your own fabrication. But since you have selective understanding, I will clarify. How about you all make your arguments within a dungeon, instead of talking about the wizard in duels etc.?

There's no 'selective understanding' going on. Possibly misunderstanding based on your very brief post.

"That's nice y'all" is generally taken as sarcastic. Especially in real life.

"Why don't you try a dungeon" Strongly implies, if not outright states, that we all do not, in fact, try dungeons, and that our lack of dungeon-trying is a weakness in the arguments made. I resent that, more than a little, and also resent your accusations that I'm fabricating things and pretending you said them, as well as 'selectively understanding' your post. It's two lines, trust me, I got it.

You made absolutely no mention of any of the things I said, true, but that's more a reflection of the fact you made no mention of a great many things, which doesn't stop me from mentioning my own opinions while I'm on a specific subject.

The comments about how wizards are great in dungeons is borne out by a simple examination of what abilities a wizard has, as opposed to a barbarian, that work better in dungeons than elsewhere. There are a lot of possible answers, more if the wizard has the option to put more spells into their spellbook than the 2 per level that are given for free, because if a spell seems useful enough a wizard can just scribe it, with the free feat they all get, onto a scroll for that one-in-a-million chance it might be neccessary.

Solo
2008-03-31, 12:21 AM
I made absolutely no mention whatsoever of such things, and I believe all of this is your own fabrication. But since you have selective understanding, I will clarify. How about you all make your arguments within a dungeon, instead of talking about the wizard in duels etc.?

In a dungeon, Ozymandias makes great use of spells like Solid Fog, Stink Cloud, etc, to disable the enemy while spamming Save or X spells.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 12:22 AM
^ Mmmm, I love solid fog. My party was a little annoyed though. Next time I make a sorc I'll provide a means of removing the solid fog afterwards.


There's no 'selective understanding' going on. Possibly misunderstanding based on your very brief post.

"That's nice y'all" is generally taken as sarcastic. Especially in real life.

"Why don't you try a dungeon" Strongly implies, if not outright states, that we all do not, in fact, try dungeons, and that our lack of dungeon-trying is a weakness in the arguments made. I resent that, more than a little, and also resent your accusations that I'm fabricating things and pretending you said them, as well as 'selectively understanding' your post. It's two lines, trust me, I got it.

You made absolutely no mention of any of the things I said, true, but that's more a reflection of the fact you made no mention of a great many things, which doesn't stop me from mentioning my own opinions while I'm on a specific subject.

The comments about how wizards are great in dungeons is borne out by a simple examination of what abilities a wizard has, as opposed to a barbarian, that work better in dungeons than elsewhere. There are a lot of possible answers, more if the wizard has the option to put more spells into their spellbook than the 2 per level that are given for free, because if a spell seems useful enough a wizard can just scribe it, with the free feat they all get, onto a scroll for that one-in-a-million chance it might be neccessary.

That's a lot of words to reply to so few. Ever think you might be going a bit too deep into this? Anyway I tried to find something written about why mages are overpowered in real games, thought I saw it a couple times, double checked some old posts, but then ran into dead ends that kinda sorta answered it.

Ima subscribe to this thread and check back at Chosen_of_Vecna's reply tomorrow. That looks like my best bet. Even if the CR is too low, if he schools them all in spite of the wide variation in encounter types I think that'll show something. Or maybe someone else will take the time to post some more encounters. I don't have the time myself, as I need to catch some zzz's. Night.

Solo
2008-03-31, 12:33 AM
^ Mmmm, I love solid fog. My party was a little annoyed though. Next time I make a sorc I'll provide a means of removing the solid fog afterwards.

You an dismiss a spell as a standard action, you know.




That's a lot of words to reply to so few. Ever think you might be going a bit too deep into this?

It's what we do.


Anyway I tried to find something written about why mages are overpowered in real games, thought I saw it a couple times, double checked some old posts, but then ran into dead ends that kinda sorta answered it.

Ima subscribe to this thread and check back at Chosen_of_Vecna's reply tomorrow. That looks like my best bet. Even if the CR is too low, if he schools them all in spite of the wide variation in encounter types I think that'll show something. Or maybe someone else will take the time to post some more encounters. I don't have the time myself, as I need to catch some zzz's. Night.[

You would benefit from reading Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems, as linked to below.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 12:37 AM
You an dismiss a spell as a standard action, you know.

If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will.

Duration: 1 min./level
I blame myself for knowing the rules too well. Would have saved some game time to say, "I dismiss the fog, let's go." The proper solution is dispel magic (automatic success) or an easy source of fire.

Dang it! Lost 10 minutes. Okay, gotta sleep now. May check out that sorc guide if I have some time to kill tomorrow and if I remember when I check this thread. Thanks.

Solo
2008-03-31, 12:41 AM
The important thing is whether your DM knows it or not. :smallwink:

Well, you can always cast one of those Evocation wind spells if you're desperate.

Or just walk through it. It only takes 4 rounds at most. Less with Dimension Door, which you should also have on hand.

Aquillion
2008-03-31, 01:10 AM
Unseen Servant. Just make sure to pack a big Bag o Rocks (100 pounds). See, the Unseen Servant can drag that much - and if you pick a small race, this means the unseen servant will trigger all mechanical traps that you will. Hours/level duration, so you're not just clearing the corridor. Combine with Detect Magic (or later, Arcane Sight) and you find all magic traps, too. Then all you need is some way to disable the trap or get around it - and there's notes in Core about disabling a trap manually.This is no good, though, against alarms, or traps that summon something, or traps that affect an extremely wide area (poison gas, flood, etc), or magical traps capable of making intelligent or 'programmed' decisions about when to go off, or 'rusty' traps that only go off sometimes, or traps designed to go off after X people go through (to get an entire invading force instead of just their scouts), or self-reloading traps with no visible effect on the servent + bag (many magical or poison traps fall into this category, particularly ones that only work on living things -- eg a flesh to stone trap), or traps that block a passageway, or traps that block a passageway far behind you to trap you in the area, or... you get the idea.

I keep seeing people say "Oh, you don't need to search for traps, you can just summon something or whatever and have it blunder through to set them all off." This would work... if the only traps in the universe were pit, dart, and arrow traps. Unfortunately this is not the case. You have to consider why the area is trapped and what sort of opposition the trap-maker is expecting... If they are preparing against invasions, groups of people, etc, chances are they will have taken the possibility of scouts into consideration, and designed their traps so that one scout (or summon, or unseen servent) going a bit ahead won't render the trap useless.

Additionally, 'natural' traps (the rotting bridge that collapses, say) are quite common and generally fall into the 'non-reliable trigger' category mentioned above. While it might sound odd, having a 'trap' that only goes off sometimes can be much nastier to a party of players -- because with a group of people passing through there's a good chance it'll go off for someone, and often the people who the party least wants to be hit by a trap won't be at the head of the formation.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 01:14 AM
Thanks. I accept. These are all CR 6, selected via random clicking. Beat all 4 in order. Maybe someone else will take the time to post some CR 12 encounters.

Solitary Babau ambush, underground evil temple with pillars and other large features
3 dire wolves in forest, sniff you out, encircle at a distance and close in
4 Satyrs, in the wilderness, sneak up on you
1 young blue dragon, in the desert, comes at you from under the sand or in the sky (flip a coin?)

1) How do you want to run them exactly? I can post my general outlines here, but that doesn't mean quiet as much.

2) What counts as "defeating" an encounter exactly? Certainly with the Dragon and Babau, bypassing without killing them is going to be nearly impossible, but the Satyrs can be out run, and the Dire wolves are laughable for a fly speed. I don't remember what my spells are for the day, but it seems that if the encircle me in the wild, fly speed plus continuing on to my objective would be more then qualifiable as a win.


Maybe someone else will have the time to post some CR 8 encounters. But feel free to try out the CR 6 ones. Or I think 4 dire wolves and 5 satyrs are each CR 7, IIRC.

I'm offering to solo 4 encounters (though dragons are notoriously under CRed, so I might die in that one) of my level, with a Wizard that has spells prepared for a party setting at a level that is before wizards come into their own. I'm also currently set with spells prepared explicitly for attacking a Lich in his undead guarded sanctuary, instead of with my general spells list. (Unfortunate that you choose CR 6, since the CR 12 one has the full normal spell list set up rather then a specific one.) I think it's perfectly fair for me to face off against CR 6 enemies as an ECL 6 character.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 01:23 AM
Having now checked my build I can say with confidence that I am hardly prepared at all for dealing with a non-group situation, having prepared spells such as Haste, Displacement, Command Undead, and Vertigo Field instead of kill spells, regardless, I will take the encounters however you want to run them, in the spirit of the challenge.

Give me the party, and I'll take CR 8 any day, however the main reason I am offering this up is because I want to do something with this character, and the party don't all have their characters up yet.

I sincerely hope that someone will post CR12 encounters, since the build matures at ECL 8 with access to the full 150+ spells in his spellbook. And hit's basic levels of invulnerability at level 12. (Though at level 13 he can walk through walls, at will, that will be fun.)

EDIT: No Polymorph Cheese Solo. Just so you know, my level 12 version you will be adventuring with does not even know the spell Polymorph. Despite having more then 150 spells in his 1-6 repertoire.

Lokey
2008-03-31, 02:45 AM
Alright, environment is underground, a series of ice cavern rooms connected by long tunnels (medium creature can pass easily). You can have an NPC party: sword and board fighter, monk and cleric (healpack, not 'zilla). Let's not have an invis sphere + silence + pass without trace, you will have to fight four encounters, incapacitating and moving on is fine where except where denoted, but don't leave any of the party behind wedged in something's gullet either:smallamused:

Rooms are connected by 10' circular tunnels that twist and turn, lengthy tunnel treks between rooms (say at least 1 hour). Cold environment (resist elements kind of cold). Fluff, you need to get from point a to point b in this underground whatever for whatever reason. No scrying/teleporting for whatever fluff reason...just want to see how your general purpose spell loadout with the party (but you should be the star) handles:

1) 50x30x20' high room. Frost worm. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm

2) 100x50x50' high room. Gelugon. It has several persisted images of itself up. If not killed, it will pursue.

3) 100x50x50 room. Greater and an Elder Air Elemental.

4) 200x40x40' chamber filled with water. Two Giant Squids.

Didn't see something incorporeal in a fast look through. Maybe an optional 5th, fighting 8 allips in a broom closet...

AslanCross
2008-03-31, 05:02 AM
Barbarians don't use magic. Anyway, yes, magic is powerful. SO IS SLICING OPEN YOUR ENEMIES AT THE STOMACH. Besides, I don't think there are any spells that disable traps, at least not in core.

Yeah, the Wizard can do that too by polymorphing into a hydra and tearing apart an enemy with TEN ATTACKS.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-31, 06:05 AM
Except nowhere does it say that the Magic Missiles have any mass. I always imagined them as purplish bolts that dissipated upon contact inflicting harmful energy.
If you want something resembling realistic physics, don't base it in D&D. Physics are broken many, many times on a daily basis.

He probably thinks all forces have mass. This is untrue. Electromagnetic forces do not have mass. Only gravitational forces have mass to my kowledge.

Patashu
2008-03-31, 08:01 AM
Forces do not have mass, ever. Forces are produced by the presence or movement of masses and accelerate their target. Assuming D&D is running by the conventional notion of a 'force' (it may well not be) then magic missile will impart momentum apon its target. Of course, it may be more like taking a bullet then a sledgehammer, in which case it would hurt but wouldn't throw you back.

Funkyodor
2008-03-31, 08:10 AM
Or they could be little balls of negative force and violently pull parts of an object because they suck so much? Heh, heh, that was funny. Admit it.

Solo
2008-03-31, 08:14 AM
Tempus, a .45 caliber bullet is more than capable of killing someone, has force and mass, but does not possess enough energy to knock someone back or alter their trajectory in mid air, due to Newton's Second Law.

You know? Physics and all that?

Gensuru
2008-03-31, 08:24 AM
Well personaly i don´t think of mages as being all that overpowered. Sure their magic gives them an extremely versatile weapon that can bypass a lot of obstacles with ease. But personaly i don´t know a lot of mages who walk around covered in protective spells all day. Generaly they only cast them when they expect danger (or are already facing it) so the rest of the time they are rather vulnerable. So yes a mage can bypass a lot of obstacles in a dungeon but assuming it is a story being played the villain will sooner or later know that there is a mage among the adventurers right? An assassin might get rid of that mage pretty fast. One poisoned arrow sneak attack and the mage might be out cold. A thief stealing the spellbook might be bothersome as well should he manage it. What´s really likely to wear a mage out is a lot of encounters. If he simply can´t rest he will have to watch out that his spells don´t run out. Stamina wasn´t a mages strong part the last time i checked. Once they run out of spells they have to rest. The problems usualy start for them if something keeps them from resting properly. Sure mages ARE overpowered if you let THEM decide the pace...but who ever said you´d have to let them decide the pace? A class that is so dependant on their own pace is easily disrupted if you force them out of their pace.

Ossian
2008-03-31, 08:29 AM
Why do mages most of the cool things. The only thing fighters get relly is bonus feats. Fighters are the only class that can't have magic everyone else in the players hand book gets some magic.:roy: :roy: :roy:

Make a gestalt character. Every level in fighter you get, gives you a level in mage. Now your fighter can cast spells.
It's simply a rulebook. It is designed to give you a certain feeling for a certain setting. You don' like it....you change it. Problem Solved.

D&D is medieval wannabe stuff. There is only so much you can do with 2 kg of sharp steel. You want to be cool loking on the beach with sixpacks abs? Pick up a fighter or a rougue. You want to bend time and cast orbs of magma? Pick up a mage.

The only other way of making a ftr 20 au pair with a mage 20 is to make the ftr 20 be a Dragonball Z character that slices mountains with a battleaxe.
Besides, I got over the magic complex ages ago. It's a stage we all have to go through. Eventually, you will understand that cool is not always the same as powerful.

I'll give you 2 ...3 lists and you ell me which one has the most powerful and which one has the coolest characters in it


Elminster
Khelben Blackstaff
Jon Irenicus
Raistlin Majere
Vaarsuvius (must do it)

----------------------

Bruce Lee :smallwink:


----------------------

Jack Burton from Big Trouble in little china
Indiana Jones
Dirk Pitt & Al Giordino (from Cussler's novels)
John MacLane, aka Bruce Willis in any Die Hard
Batman
Gatsu from Berserk
Lupin, Jigen Daisuko and Goemon Ishikawa
Kagemnaru the ninja (or any ninja that is not in a team)
Wolverine
Han Solo
Boba Fett
Kyle Katarn (before he gets the force powers)
MacGyver
Druss (Legend, by Gemmel)
Jules Winnifeld (aka Mace Windu in L.A. aka BMF)
Kamina (Tengen Toppa Gurenn Lagann)
Sean Connery from The Rock
Jason Bourne or Craig's James Bond


It's up to you, really....choose one, just one....

EDIT: I know there is a hint of sexism in the list (hence, apologies) but it's a game for NERDS and JOCKS, as someone wiser than me stated. So, the background noise in your brain, the bottom line, the final question will always be: who in your nerdish fantasies gets the girls? The old wizard that shatters mountains in a wink or the badass MF from hell?

Funkyodor
2008-03-31, 08:46 AM
When I think how bad a Fighter should be during end game, I picture episodes of Angel where he killed a Werewolf with a silver pen, or an evil servant of a powerful enemy with a tea spoon... Yeah, tea spoon to the forehead and down goes powerful evil servant.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 08:50 AM
1) 50x30x20' high room. Frost worm. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm

1) Using my ability to see through stone, I may have picked up on the Frost Worm in advance. Either way, upon gaining line of effect, I instantly know the creatures location, size, type, and intelligence score (too bad I didn't memorize ray of stupidity, cause this would be a lot shorter) thanks to Mindsight.

The DC for pinpointing the location of an enemy with Listen is 20+their Move Silent check, not sure how you want to work that, since I succeed on a 1.

If I have line of effect, I begin with a Ray of Clumsiness that hits on a 2 and up for the surprise round. If not, I ready an action to hit him with it when he breaks the surface and then 5ft step behind cover. [1d6+5 Dex penalty]

I have an Init mod of +14 to his +4, and a 50ft fly speed, so even without a surprise round, I am unlikely to be hit by it easily.

Whatever you want it to do for it's turn is fine, I succeed against the trill on a 2, and have broken line of effect and am possibly outside his movement range.

When next I am presented an oppurtunity (will use readied actions to make sure) will use Phantasmal Assailants on the Wyrm to do 8 Dex damage unless he rolls a 20, in which case it will do 4 damage, and he'll still be unconscious. Now I invite the fighter/Cleric/Rogue, who were telepathically instructed to stay back in the corridor on first notice of the Wyrm, forward to coup de grace away.

Do to a confluence of factors, my party taking zero damage seems the most likely result.

Will do others when I return, though if you want to create a thread and have me roll or use maps that's cool too.

Sofaking
2008-03-31, 09:19 AM
They have the Force descriptor and are described as tiny bolts of Force energy.

If they were as you described them it would be something akin to a negative energy spell, and most evidence from the RAW would suggest otherwise. Of course, you could homebrew it that way if you wanted, which would be kind of cool....


It would be interesting if you apply this rule if the mage casts the spell while standing on ice and has to roll a balance check because the force also pushes him back.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 10:08 AM
Well personaly i don´t think of mages as being all that overpowered. Sure their magic gives them an extremely versatile weapon that can bypass a lot of obstacles with ease. But personaly i don´t know a lot of mages who walk around covered in protective spells all day. Generaly they only cast them when they expect danger (or are already facing it) so the rest of the time they are rather vulnerable. So yes a mage can bypass a lot of obstacles in a dungeon but assuming it is a story being played the villain will sooner or later know that there is a mage among the adventurers right? An assassin might get rid of that mage pretty fast. One poisoned arrow sneak attack and the mage might be out cold. A thief stealing the spellbook might be bothersome as well should he manage it. What´s really likely to wear a mage out is a lot of encounters. If he simply can´t rest he will have to watch out that his spells don´t run out. Stamina wasn´t a mages strong part the last time i checked. Once they run out of spells they have to rest. The problems usualy start for them if something keeps them from resting properly. Sure mages ARE overpowered if you let THEM decide the pace...but who ever said you´d have to let them decide the pace? A class that is so dependant on their own pace is easily disrupted if you force them out of their pace.

Working in reverse order:

1) Mages set their own pace by casting Rope Trick/Teleporting back/whatever they want. Additionally, the game is balanced based on 4 CR of level encounters. If you encounter grind the party, as soon as the Wizard stops being able to contribute, the party get's KOed by the people it could easily handle with the Wizard.

2) The Stamina myth is a lie. Everyone depends on the Cleric to keep them up, he runs out of spells. Try to have a Fighter go through 5 CR 10 encounters at level 12, see how well he does. He's going to be hurting at the end. Everyone has resources that get worn out.

3) While he might be over-prepared for a normal Wizard, try stealing the spellbook from Tocar the level 12 version. It is impossible to do so without incapacitating him, even if you sneak up in the night, you still won't get it.

It's also pretty much impossible to sneak up on him since he doesn't sleep and has 100ft Mindsight, amongst other things.

In addition, he has tattoos on his body of some basic spells which are more then sufficient to get him to one of his many back up spell books.

4) My favorite Wizard Fallacy, the not always buffed one. I have 24 hour protection from people teleporting near me, 24 hour protection from scrying, and 24 hour immunity to critical hits amongst other things. This along with my 24 hour fly speed.

When that Assassin Death attacks me, I take 1d8+str+enhancement damage. That's not even going to break my temp HP.

Chronos
2008-03-31, 11:57 AM
But personaly i don´t know a lot of mages who walk around covered in protective spells all day.Wow, again I find myself agreeing with Chosen of Vecna on something. Sure, some spells last for 1 round or minute per level, and those, a wizard isn't going to have up unless he's imminently expecting trouble. But there are also a lot of spells which last for an hour per level, or a day. There's no reason why a wizard shouldn't have Mind Blank up all day, or Mage Armor, or Overland Flight, to pick just a few basic examples from the core rules. I don't know precisely what spells Chosen's mage is using, but they're probably hour/level, also, so there's no reason not to have them up, either.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 12:00 PM
2) 100x50x50' high room. Gelugon. It has several persisted images of itself up. If not killed, it will pursue.

Well you didn't give me much in the way of specifics, so I'll say that it relies largely on it's Persistent Images for warning, and that it isn't overly vigilant.

Since I can see into the room through the walls, I'll start by moving around the corner and catching it by surprise.

Facing an Ice Devil, I'll spontaneously channel my Orb of Fire into an Assay Resistance, then let loose a Fleshshiver, beating it's spell resistance on a 2. I would personally be flying, but let's assume that it keeps up Fly all the time since it has it at will.

Because its HD is higher then my CL, it makes two saves, the first one for a 1 round stun, the second one round later for 1d4+2 rounds of Nausea and 13d6 damage. It has a fairly good chance of failing one of these saves. (DC 25 to it's +15 Fort)

The summoning brings too much randomness into play, so I'm going to assume for whatever reason it does not want to find itself owing a favor to another Devil and won't use that ability.

Now we roll Init, and I win, then say the Ice Devil, then the Cleric who is still back in the hallway. I telepathically update everyone on the goings on. I'm going to assume the Cleric at level 12 is also a buff/spellcaster as well as a healbot but will only use PHB spells, and if you for any reason disagree with something I think it makes sense for a Cleric to have memorized let me know.

For my Turn I now let loose with a Flesh to Ice, another Fort save, this one or Die. The turn after I would disintegrate. I'm going to say that since I have no ranks in Knowledge (Planes) that I don't know about the cone of cold at will, and so I won't expend my Heart of Fire for a Flame Shield effect that would effectively give me improved Evasion against it.

For the Ice Devil's turn, still facing only me, I'm assuming his move is to move closer and Cone of Cold. (DC 20, to my +12 modifier, even if I failed the save, I'd still be alive and able to survive another most likely, that's assuming he's still alive and can take his turn.)

Then the Cleric would move action in, and either:

If the Devil is stunned and it is prepared, Attempt a Banish.

Otherwise he could ready an action to counterspell the cone of cold if SLAs can be counterspelled, or he could cast Protection from Energy on me.

At this point I would cast Disintegrate if he's still alive and that would almost certainly kill him. Also, I would move to outside his Full attack reach if I was within it.

As of this point in the fight the Ice Devil has maybe used a single cone of cold effect, with a 40% chance of averaging 45 damage to me and a 60% chance of averaging 22 (Not enough to take out my Temp HP.)

I have forced between 3-4 Fort saves, all but one of which end the fight for the Devil (Two are insta kills, 1 is 1d4+2 round Nausea and 13d6 damage which would result in his death before the end of the Nausea, and one is a 1 round stun) all with a 45% chance of failure. And additionally, a possible will save (40% chance of beating SR, followed by 35% chance of failing save) or not, depending.

Chances are pretty good that this guy dies before he even gets to do any damage. And if he is stupid enough to use Greater Teleport for anything but fleeing he just sets himself up for a pre-buffed gang bang thanks to Greater Anticipate Teleport. He is also unlikely to do have any reason to try to escape (if he is still alive) with Teleport in his first standard action, and he is unlikely to get a second.

At worst case I have expended two level 6 spells, a level 5 spell, and a level 4 spell. And the Cleric a level 6. More likely I have expended a 4th level slot, a sixth level slot, and maybe a 5th as well. Either way, pretty good for a CR 13 encounter that would have trounced most parties without a Wizard.

TempusCCK
2008-03-31, 12:16 PM
Mages are overpowered because the limiting factor for most fantasy magic users has been eliminated for playabilities sake, and no further limiting factor has been put into place.

They say that the game is balanced based on a 4 encounter a day system, but given your average CR encounter, a Wizard can tear through it with a few spells. My personal experience has been that a balanced set of encounters is about 6 or 7 a day, maybe quite a few more at higher levels. 6 or 7 encounters can take between 1 and 8 hours in game time, depending on the situation. This causes the wizard to spread out his spell allotment over time and not be so quick to burn them on fewer encounters. This, in effect, gives other players a chance to contribute in a more meaningful way. Sure, it promotes miserlyness (whoo made up word), but it balances the system much better.

If you get 6 or 7 encounters a day and the wizard burns up all of his spells on 3 or 4 and then demands to rest, the rest of the party probably isn't going to be onboard unless they specifically need the wizard for something. The focused fighter is going to chide about wasted time, the bloodthirsty barbarian is going to get antsy with all the waiting, and everyone is probably going to put pressure on the wizard to start using his spells more effectively over the course of amounts of encounters to maximize efficiency, time as a limiting factor in campaigns could help this too. If your wizard is being too strong, give them more encounters, he's going to tone it down a bit, and after a couple of times of him wanting to stop early and wait for hours upon hours to get the rest, people who have a vested interest in the mission are going to say "Wait, we can't do that, you need to be more conservative."

I just get really tired of the notion that D&D is designed to operate outside the influence of the DM. If wizards are strong, there are really simple ways to balance it.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 12:17 PM
Wow, again I find myself agreeing with Chosen of Vecna on something.

You say that like it's a bad thing. :smallwink:


I don't know precisely what spells Chosen's mage is using, but they're probably hour/level, also, so there's no reason not to have them up, either.

Core I have Overland Flight and Detect Scrying, both extended (in the Scrying case, that means it lasts 48 hours.)

Spell Compendium gives me Superior Resistance (basically, saves me 25,000gp on a cloak though not as good if I get dispelled), and Greater Anticipate Teleport (delay's teleportation and informs me of the incoming creatures, pretty much negates the combat usages of Demon Greater Teleports as well as defeating most Teleport Ambushes pretty easily) Both 24 hour duration, extended to 48.

Complete Mage give me the entire Heart Line: Air/Earth/Fire/Water, which while active gives me +10 speed to Air and Land, Fire resist 20, 24 Temp HP, Waterbreathing, a swim speed equal to my land speed, a bonus on swim checks and escape artist checks, And while all are active immunity to crits and SA (25% fortification if only two or three active). These are all hours per level and also extended.

In addition, each can be expended for a one round per level effect of:
Featherfall, Freedom of Movement, Stoneskin, Fire Shield (Warm version only). after which the old effect goes away.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 12:21 PM
If your wizard is being too strong, give them more encounters, he's going to tone it down a bit, and after a couple of times of him wanting to stop early and wait for hours upon hours to get the rest, people who have a vested interest in the mission are going to say "Wait, we can't do that, you need to be more conservative."

2-3 Heward's Fortifying Bedrolls cost 6-9 thousand GP, and then the Wizard can just offer to teleport them to make up for the 2 hours he delayed them to regain spells.

In principle I agree with you, and I usually do something with more encounters myself, but I let the Wizard know in advance because if I didn't the Bloodthirsty Barbarian and the Dedicated Fighter would both end up dead without the Wizard.

Wolfwood2
2008-03-31, 12:31 PM
Rather than specific spells, I think there's a problem with the basic concept behind wizards. Let me ask a rhetorical question. What do wizards do? That is, what are they good at?

Answer: Wizards do (arcane) magic.

What does (arcane) magic do?

Answer: (arcane) Magic can do anything. (Except heal.)

Therefore, wizards can do anything. (Except heal.)

Wizards get to do lots and lots of things that cannot be duplicated by any other class. (Barring certain cleric domains or use of magic items.) They can transport groups around, stop enemies in their tracks, hide away, cloak themselves behind all sorts of illusions. Meanwhile the other classes don't have a lot of tricks that wizards can't duplicate by one means or another.

I think that wizards need a more focused answer to, "What do wizards do?". Take some of their toys away from them and give it to other classes. Versatility can still be their thing, but not to the extent it is right now.

TempusCCK
2008-03-31, 12:35 PM
How are you regaining spells in two hours? If you are it's in an obviously broken way that no sane DM would allow. A teleport also doesn't help because you have to know where you're going to teleport, sure, you can teleport them back to where they are, but you still lost the time it took to leave and come back, and have gained nothing except the ability to move on, which you might have had if you had just conserved spells to begin with.

Your example is awesome, a wizard can single handedly defeat an encounter, but if you're with other people and have a time contraint, and need to defeat several encounters, you're not going to blow those 4-5 spells on that one encounter, instead you're going to let the Fighter and others contribute and aid them with your magic. They still defeat the encounter, but unless it takes them 8 hours to accomplish what you could with all your spells, they're still ahead in time.

If you're worried about the Wizard not helping the party, but the party needed a wizard, tell the player to roll up another character, a wizard who isn't so stingy, and have him come in as a replacement. If the Wizard wants to go out on his own, fine, make an NPC Wizard available to the party and ask the Wizards player to leave, D&D is about having fun with other people, if you're being a jerk and blowing through yoru spells unneccesarily just because you lik eto dominate encounters and it's causing others to have less fun, then nobody needs you.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 12:36 PM
Multiple Fortifying bedrolls won't help a wizard. Can only benefit from one within a 48 hour period.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 12:40 PM
TempusCCK, the question is: If the wizard scales back, wouldn't the CLERIC then have to expend more resources on healing and ressurecting? The longer the fight goes, the more likely that Bad Things(tm) will happen to your party.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 12:45 PM
4) 200x40x40' chamber filled with water. Two Giant Squids.

Now before I try to address this one, I was attempting to figure out the most logical encounter for all the others, but I have no idea what you mean by a room filled with water. Do we open a door only to have our room filled with water? Is there a random teleportation circle in this cave complex? Do we come out on a ledge overlooking a room filled with mostly water? Is the item we want in that room or past it? How do we get past it? Is it in the water? Is there a ledge I can just fly to on the other side? Are either or both ledges within reach of the squids? Is the ceiling within reach of the squids?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 12:58 PM
Multiple Fortifying bedrolls won't help a wizard. Can only benefit from one within a 48 hour period.

Misread that, thought it said from the same bedroll, still just use it when you really need it, shouldn't need it more often then once every 48 hours.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 01:26 PM
How are you regaining spells in two hours? If you are it's in an obviously broken way that no sane DM would allow. A teleport also doesn't help because you have to know where you're going to teleport, sure, you can teleport them back to where they are, but you still lost the time it took to leave and come back, and have gained nothing except the ability to move on, which you might have had if you had just conserved spells to begin with.

1) It's not in an obviously broken way, it is in an obviously useful way by an item which exists for the sole purpose of allowing the party to hurry and take all 8 of those encounters in one day without all dieing because the Wizard ran out of spells before they got to the BBEG.

2) How often after level 12 are you going to be in a big hurry to someplace that you can't see well enough to teleport? If you are in a hurry, letting the Wizard scry location or scry someone or even prepare a set of Phantom Steeds is a lot faster then hoofing it. And that's not even counting the fact that most times you are in a hurry to get somewhere it's back to somewhere you've already been, where Teleport is the fastest possible way.


Your example is awesome, a wizard can single handedly defeat an encounter, but if you're with other people and have a time contraint, and need to defeat several encounters, you're not going to blow those 4-5 spells on that one encounter, instead you're going to let the Fighter and others contribute and aid them with your magic. They still defeat the encounter, but unless it takes them 8 hours to accomplish what you could with all your spells, they're still ahead in time.

You misunderstand, my example is part of a series of encounters presented to me by another poster. I am trying to conserve my spells as much as is realistically possible. I also have a party, and would use them when I can. The problem is my party consists of: A useless Sword and Board Fighter, A Healbot (and I extended it to a Buff bot though even that is more then was suggested), and Rogue that is mostly useless in combat.

If only I could use them in the fight well that would be great, but so far we have faced a very easy encounter, requiring only a level 2 and level 1 spell in which had the fighter or rogue or cleric taken part, they would have been hit with a cone of cold and then one of them would have been eaten. Luckily I could take it out with minimal fuss without taking any damage at all.

The Devil encounter was a very tough encounter, normally in that situation I would like to have someone useful to rely on, but I don't have that option because the party provided is lackluster at best. The fighter could have tanked a full round attack maybe twice if he was lucky against the Ice Devil, and then we would need to waste time healing him. He might even die from that. On the other hand I didn't even need to spend many spells on the Ice Devil, most likely it would only cost me 1 each of 4th, 5th, and 6th.

That is significantly better to me then attempting to let the rest of my party get themselves killed on a full attack that annihilates them with ease.

What happened here so far is the Wizard dealt with the encounters in the best way possible, because these encounters were encounters where without a Wizard, the party would die or be significantly the worse for wear (both encounters so far done mind you, and at least the fourth one looks t be the same way). These were encounters picked at random by another poster, why do they favor Wizards and basically require them? Because most encounters after CR 10 require Wizards or comparable spellcasters to even survive.

Look at the advantage I had in the first round, I ignored all the images and focused on the devil and caught it by surprise. I've done that in two encounters were a party without my detection skills would start by taking a Cone of Cold to the whole party and then get a chance to attack back.


If you're worried about the Wizard not helping the party, but the party needed a wizard, tell the player to roll up another character, a wizard who isn't so stingy, and have him come in as a replacement.

You misunderstand, I mean that if you attempt to run 7-8 encounters but don't tell the Wizard that's what is going to happen he is going to use his spells, and then the Barbarian and Fighter who want to continue on when he has no spells are going to die. He's not refusing to help anyone, he just finished saving their lives multiple times, now they want to ignore his wishes, and if they do so they will die.


If the Wizard wants to go out on his own, fine, make an NPC Wizard available to the party and ask the Wizards player to leave, D&D is about having fun with other people, if you're being a jerk and blowing through your spells unnecessarily just because you like to dominate encounters and it's causing others to have less fun, then nobody needs you.

No one wants to be alone, they are not blowing through spells, only using them as prescribed by the assumed difficulty level in the game. If a Wizard negates the other characters it is only because those other characters have nothing to do in the first place. What does a generic fighter and rogue + healbot Cleric do against an Ice Devil with several false images around who can fly, teleport, and fire cones of cold at the party every round?

They can't even realistically reach him, and even if they did, his Full attack routine is so dangerous that anyone but the fighter would die in a round, and the fighter in tow.

Parties with Wizards are powerful enough to deal with their CR encounters, parties without, or with Wizards who used all their spells already during the last 4-6 encounters are not.

Ulzgoroth
2008-03-31, 01:49 PM
Chosen, I'm a wizard fan too, but you really need to read your miracle items more carefully:
"Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal."

Right in the bedroll's description. You can't take a break in the middle of the day and get back a full load of spells.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-31, 02:08 PM
Its not that wizards by default are overpowered. It’s that they can be overpowered by picking certain spells and feats. It’s one of those things you have to know how to do before you can be really good at it.

Wizards are still massively stronger than fighters if you just choose obvious damaging spell options. They're "overpowered" relative to the fighter. They're broken if you spend a bit of time at it, and very broken if you spend a lot.

And fighters DO suck. That's why playing a character from the Tome of Battle is so essential in 3.x.

4e looks to make the playing field a lot more even.

Doomsy
2008-03-31, 02:37 PM
Wrong. Wizards are still massively stronger than fighters if you just choose obvious damaging spell options. They're "overpowered" relative to the fighter. They're broken if you spend a bit of time at it, and very broken if you spend a lot.

And fighters DO suck. That's why playing a character from the Tome of Battle is so essential in 3.x.

4e looks to make the playing field a lot more even.


Yeah. I'd say removing save or die alone is going to go a long ways towards fixing stuff. The problem is that the gremlins will be right back at it. Put it this way: A fighter has very limited number of tools in the forms of weapons and feats. A wizard has a godawful number of spells throughout a godawful number of books, and there is always going to be a set-up the devs did not plan for, did not expect, and is probably a game breaker.
Basically: You can't break the game with a sword. You *can* break it with a combination of magic effects/feats that nobody ever thought about using together.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 02:42 PM
Wrong. Wizards are still massively stronger than fighters if you just choose obvious damaging spell options.

Being stronger than a Fighter doesn't automatically put you in the "massively overpowered" category :smallbiggrin:

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-31, 02:50 PM
Yeah. I'd say removing save or die alone is going to go a long ways towards fixing stuff. The problem is that the gremlins will be right back at it. Put it this way: A fighter has very limited number of tools in the forms of weapons and feats. A wizard has a godawful number of spells throughout a godawful number of books, and there is always going to be a set-up the devs did not plan for, did not expect, and is probably a game breaker.
Basically: You can't break the game with a sword. You *can* break it with a combination of magic effects/feats that nobody ever thought about using together.

Fighters in 3.x don't have a whole lot of options because, for whatever reason, the people who made the game just didn't think of many; even with the CW they're still sharply limited. The ToB is really what gave them interesting things to do with their fighter replacements.

In 4th edition the entire system is completely different, and there's no reason to believe that wizards have more powers than fighters as of right now. This will help a great deal in balancing the game.

And I don't think SoDs are what broke wizards; its the other stuff they're capable of which simply negates encounters entirely without the opposing side having any chance to stop them which causes issues. Flying, taking extra turns, teleportation, polymorphing, solid fog and friends... these spells are what really breaks them. You can give everyone SoDs, and the game turns into rocket tag, but it isn't necessarily broken.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 02:54 PM
It's really the no-save-and-suck spells that make wizards so good. My Beguiler single-handedly svaed the butts of the party 2 times in one session thanks to Solid Fog.

Morty
2008-03-31, 03:00 PM
In 4th edition the entire system is completely different, and there's no reason to believe that wizards have more powers than fighters as of right now.

Actually, there is. It's confirmed that in 4ed, wizards will have more daily powers and at each extended rest they'll choose which ones they wish to use. It's not in any way guaranteed to have any impact on balance, but it might be worth pointing out.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 03:05 PM
1) How do you want to run them exactly? I can post my general outlines here, but that doesn't mean quiet as much.

2) What counts as "defeating" an encounter exactly? Certainly with the Dragon and Babau, bypassing without killing them is going to be nearly impossible, but the Satyrs can be out run, and the Dire wolves are laughable for a fly speed. I don't remember what my spells are for the day, but it seems that if the encircle me in the wild, fly speed plus continuing on to my objective would be more then qualifiable as a win.



I'm offering to solo 4 encounters (though dragons are notoriously under CRed, so I might die in that one) of my level, with a Wizard that has spells prepared for a party setting at a level that is before wizards come into their own. I'm also currently set with spells prepared explicitly for attacking a Lich in his undead guarded sanctuary, instead of with my general spells list. (Unfortunate that you choose CR 6, since the CR 12 one has the full normal spell list set up rather then a specific one.) I think it's perfectly fair for me to face off against CR 6 enemies as an ECL 6 character.

True, it is solo and low CR. Evasion is kinda unfair for a solo character; that's the one major advantage he has over a party. Plus in a dungeon you're usually trying to get to something and doing so usually requires slaying the guards. Okay, I'll provide the outline. Run the encounters per the monster manual. As for other details:

1. Babau. You are there to clean out the temple of an unknown great evil. The Babau ambushes you and gets a surprise round (where you are flatfooted) unless you somehow prevent this (spell, spot beats his hide, etc.).
2. 3 dire wolves. Wolves start 10' away for every point by which your spot beats their hide. Listen/MS works too, but in that case they get full concealment until you spot them. The wolves get a -5 to their hide/MS at range and a -20 when they begin to charge (combat begins at charging range minus 5 or 10 feet). If you don't beat their hide/MS even then, they get a surprise round. Otherwise roll initiative normally. If you escape they will try to track you, and may regain the scent even after you lose them. No need to kill.
3. 4 Satyrs. Similar to wolves, but will use their bows at range before closing. If you flee you will have to fight them again later (within a couple hours), though perhaps you can avoid the ambush this time.
4. Young Blue Dragon. You are after the dragon's hoard, hidden somewhere beneath the sand. You have 10 hirelings who can dig, camped at a distance away. They will avoid fighting. You also have enough provisions and tents to camp for days. But the dragon will attack within minutes, when he notices you. You don't see him, but know that he is probably near. If you can get quickly get yourself and the hirelings far away and back again you can buy yourself more time and a full spell list.

Rutee
2008-03-31, 03:08 PM
Actually, there is. It's confirmed that in 4ed, wizards will have more daily powers and at each extended rest they'll choose which ones they wish to use. It's not in any way guaranteed to have any impact on balance, but it might be worth pointing out.

This is correct; From what we understand as well, Wizards will have the weakest At-Will powers (Probably not an order of magnitude weaker really).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 03:13 PM
Chosen, I'm a wizard fan too, but you really need to read your miracle items more carefully:
"Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal."

Right in the bedroll's description. You can't take a break in the middle of the day and get back a full load of spells.

I am well aware of that limitation, but if your DM is trying to grind you through 8 encounters a day, and you can make it through 5, then prep spells again using the bag, it's a good bet that 2-3 of those encounters you already did were more then eight hours ago, and combined with the extra slots from all the 24 hour buffs spells you don't have to cast again, that may just be enough to pull you through an 8 encounter day you otherwise would have TPKed on because your DM was so desperate to nerf wizards by giving more encounters, or because he just doesn't understand that the game is balanced on four encounters and that if he tries to run eight everyone will die.

Frosty
2008-03-31, 03:22 PM
I tend to run 2...at most 3 encounters a day. I throw really, really tough, beefed up enemies at my party :smallbiggrin: It's more fun this way.

taigen
2008-03-31, 03:22 PM
Going back to the original question, I think it comes down to a fundamental balanceing point that really isn't much of one.

The hypothesis is that wizards are balanced to fighters because their abilities 'run out'. This hypothesis allows there abilities to be several degrees more powerfull then the fighter's at any given level.

Based on this assumption, the wizards role should be in crucial encounters where his extra clout is needed, but to conserve and allow the fighter to shine in the rest of the battles. However, there is one big problem with this.

In 95% of the games I have ever played, most DMs/players don't have the patience to go through more then a few encounters a day. Most parties are quite willing to find a secure place to rest to allow wizards to recover their spells before adventureing on... so what happens is the party goes through maybe at most 3 encounters, and wizards unless they are quite low level have plenty of magic for all 3... so their role becomes blast everything that moves while the fighter kinda blocks for them... that is unless they happen to by flying and greater invisable... then who needs a fighter.

This is why, I believe, that WotC has made the move to giveing every class per round/per encounter/per day powers in 4th ed... cause the wizard/fighter tradeoff just doesn't work.

-Taigen

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 03:32 PM
True, it is solo and low CR. Evasion is kinda unfair for a solo character; that's the one major advantage he has over a party. Plus in a dungeon you're usually trying to get to something and doing so usually requires slaying the guards. Okay, I'll provide the outline. Run the encounters per the monster manual. As for other details:

To be perfectly honest, I only offered to solo a single whatever CR encounter, though I am (with a massively sucktastic party) attempting to run all four of the CR 12s.

But at CR 6 there is somewhere between no possible way, and no way that I will solo all four. I'll run it both ways, each as a single encounter, and all in a row. One the one I expect I might fail on one or two, the other is just a test to see how far I can get.

I also reserve the right to prepare a different spell in place of Haste, given the lack of party, and Command Undead given the lack of expected zombies, everything else will stay as is. They will be Ray of Exhaustion (my best single target takedown, since I already have my AoE one preped.) And Phantasmal Assailants.

I'm also going to assume that going solo I manifest a Light Crossbow out of somewhere with 20 bolts, and a Longsword.


1. Babau. You are there to clean out the temple of an unknown great evil. The Babau ambushes you and gets a surprise round (where you are flatfooted) unless you somehow prevent this (spell, spot beats his hide, etc.).

Going to start running them in a bit, but starting with comments: 100ft Mindsight means I practically see him before he sees me.


2. 3 dire wolves. Wolves start 10' away for every point by which your spot beats their hide. Listen/MS works too, but in that case they get full concealment until you spot them. The wolves get a -5 to their hide/MS at range and a -20 when they begin to charge (combat begins at charging range minus 5 or 10 feet). If you don't beat their hide/MS even then, they get a surprise round. Otherwise roll initiative normally. If you escape they will try to track you, and may regain the scent even after you lose them. No need to kill.

Are these some sort of super Intelligent Dire Wolves? Or super stupid? It makes more sense for them to respond the same way they do to birds that fly off, which does not involve running under them for hours.

Either way, they won't actually have any scent to track if I fly off. Also, see the part about 100ft Mindsight again. In fact, see it for all the encounters.


3. 4 Satyrs. Similar to wolves, but will use their bows at range before closing. If you flee you will have to fight them again later (within a couple hours), though perhaps you can avoid the ambush this time.

Unlike the Dire wolves, a compelling reason for then to chase me, will be difficult to deal with at such a level.


4. Young Blue Dragon. You are after the dragon's hoard, hidden somewhere beneath the sand. You have 10 hirelings who can dig, camped at a distance away. They will avoid fighting. You also have enough provisions and tents to camp for days. But the dragon will attack within minutes, when he notices you. You don't see him, but know that he is probably near. If you can get quickly get yourself and the hirelings far away and back again you can buy yourself more time and a full spell list.

I have never seen the stats for young Dragons, but my guess is that he's going to toast me, without any kind of party or damage source and as the last encounter of the day. We'll see.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 04:01 PM
1. Babau. You are there to clean out the temple of an unknown great evil. The Babau ambushes you and gets a surprise round (where you are flatfooted) unless you somehow prevent this (spell, spot beats his hide, etc.).

Situation 1) First encounter of the day.
Situation 2) Only Encounter of the day.

Result: Same thing, not even worth it.

One of the reasons I don't like lower levels is that it all comes down to rolls. At level 7, I would knock this guy down no problem, at level 6 I know he's there, and he doesn't know I'm there, so I cast Displacement and realizes I know he's there. He comes out of Hiding by teleporting right next to me (I'm probably outside double move range on purpose). Then I back off (No AoO thanks to displacement) and cast Ray of Clumsiness, where I have to overcome his spell resist (on a roll of 8 and up) and hit his touch AC (roll of 6 and up). That may or may not do anything. Afterwards I use Phantasmal assailants to do Dex damage, and follow up with Ray of Exhaustion if needed. The odds are in my favor on each of these hitting, but not by enough to guarantee a win.

In return he gets one attack a round at +12 (basically an auto-hit) but has to contend with Displacement. It all comes down to rolls.

Of course if it was me and Fighter Bob I'd just cast Haste and be done with it. Which is precisely my point. I can disable enemies relatively simply, I just can't kill them at low levels. However, Mr Babua could end up unconscious on the floor fairly easily. And then coup de grace, but still.

Of course a smart Demon would just run away no matter what the party make up is, so the only real way to win is scare him away. Killing him at level 6 is basically impossible.

Lokey
2008-03-31, 04:34 PM
Chosen_of_Vecna, I'd expect a level 12 caster to actually have to roll a die vs. SR 25 lol. I'm not familiar with Mindbender, what specifically is giving you Mind Sense and the see through stone ability?

Devil encounter: the GM should certainly make one of those SLAs quickened, teleport (though you have anticipate) or wall of ice say or even the Unholy Aura (though that doesn't help his SR). Just considering that you or an optimized cleric have a couple ways of instantly ending the fight. I don't think any ECL 12 wants to take a full attack from that thing.

I just thought the squids would be cool ;) Tunnel heads down and descends into water, but fluff says you have to go that way... Low ceiling with a path could work, but you'd probably need a trap or something to avoid 50 ways to totally avoid them--which isn't the point, we want to see you pwning.

Also Air Elementals: I was thinking better touch ac and flight, and don't remember seeing anything I recognized as being awesome. But they aren't melee beasts either.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 04:59 PM
Chosen_of_Vecna, I'd expect a level 12 caster to actually have to roll a die vs. SR 25 lol. I'm not familiar with Mindbender, what specifically is giving you Mind Sense and the see through stone ability?

1) That's what Assay resistance is for.

2) Mindbender gives me 100ft Telepathy. The Mindsight feat I took gives me Mindsight within the range of my Telepathy. Mindsight is like Blindsense, but I can detect their type and intelligence score in addition to what square they are in.

3) The seeing through stone comes from Earth Dreamer in Races of Stone. It gives me 1/day Divination as a Su ability, 10ft Tremorsense as Ex, All Earth subtype creatures are 1 step more friendly towards me as an Ex, and Earth sight, which is a Su ability that allows me to see through walls for 5 rounds, usable at will. So when traveling through earth and stone dungeons/ect, I would refresh it every 5 rounds. At level 13, it also gives me the ability to move through stone as well. Major downside is that it requires a 13 Wis min to get into the class.


Devil encounter: the GM should certainly make one of those SLAs quickened, teleport (though you have anticipate) or wall of ice say or even the Unholy Aura (though that doesn't help his SR). Just considering that you or an optimized cleric have a couple ways of instantly ending the fight. I don't think any ECL 12 wants to take a full attack from that thing.

A DM might change around the feats, but since I haven't had anyone actually offer to run the opposition, just set it up, and no one mentioned changing out feats, I've just been running Monster Manual regulars. It's also CR 13 as is, with enough intelligent changes that could easily become a CR 14. And it would be great if I had a decent party instead of a bunch of people that all have just about nothing useful to offer me. At least in the next fight I think the Fighter will be able to do a little damage and Tank. I think that I'll actually resolve the fight with the Air elementals mostly through melee attacks.


I just thought the squids would be cool ;) Tunnel heads down and descends into water, but fluff says you have to go that way... Low ceiling with a path could work, but you'd probably need a trap or something to avoid 50 ways to totally avoid them--which isn't the point, we want to see you pwning.

I was thinking a chamber with whatever I was after at the center of a deep pool with the two Squids guarding it. That way I could prove one more of the many ways that Wizards are superior. Expend all my buffs into their more powerful forms, cast Greater Mirror Image, Dive/Swim/Fly down, grab the item and come back up. Then Teleport away. Not every fight needs to be killing things.

And after I take care of these last two, I will view it as proving my point (the only point I was trying to make) that Wizards can prepare a general list of spells that still makes them one of if not the most productive members of the party even if they have no idea what they are facing.

Sir Giacomo
2008-03-31, 05:27 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else think it odd that to show wizard greatness a wizard uses non-core spells vs core encounters?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-31, 05:32 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else think it odd that to show wizard greatness a wizard uses non-core spells vs core encounters?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

It's just you. Core is not some holy thing. And it happens to be more broken than most other books.

Now if someone wants to see what I can do with a wizard pick 4 CR 20 encounters, from any books you want, for me to solo. I'll go so far as to bet that I can take them all out in 1 round or less per creature.

And I will even be using one of my general spell lists (so what if it does happen to be one of my more powerful builds).

Frosty
2008-03-31, 05:35 PM
Because Core encounters happen often even when wizards have access to non-core spells. Non-core monsters would not be much different as a whole. Individual monsters will of course present varying and interesting challenges.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 05:35 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else think it odd that to show wizard greatness a wizard uses non-core spells vs core encounters?:smallamused:

I'm not attempting to show "Wizard greatness." I am proving that Wizards can prepare a single general spell list and still be effective against whatever they happen to be up against, and that they do not suddenly become useless when faced with a situation that they did not see coming.

I also never asked for Core encounters, that was other choice. I said "This is my Wizard's general spell list. It proves useful in most all occasions. Even when I have no idea what I am going to be up against. Please present me with an ECL 12 challenge you feel appropriate for your party, so that I can show that this spell set up would be useful."

I sincerely wish that I could rely more on my comrades then I am, but since the encounters so far have been ones that where specifically very hard for melee oriented characters, and my party back up is specifically designed to be under optimized in order to force me to prove my own individual effectiveness, I have been forced to lay it on a little thick. This next encounter against Elementals looks like it might be easier for my underoptimized friends to not die in two rounds at.

This is not about "Core" Giamoco. Some of us play a game called D&D 3.5ed, which includes using more the just 1/50 of the books printed under that heading.

Solo
2008-03-31, 05:49 PM
Is it just me or does anyone else think it odd that to show wizard greatness a wizard uses non-core spells vs core encounters?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

So tell the posters to post non-core monsters.

He gave his spell list out first, then people gave him challenges.


Perhaps you would care to give him a non core monster of the appropriate CR? If you have time, of course.

Sachiel
2008-03-31, 06:00 PM
hmmm, what if i homebrew a CR 20 critter, is that out of the question?

Frosty
2008-03-31, 06:02 PM
It's ok if the CR is actually around 20. Compare your creation to other CR 20s and see how the power compares. If it eats the Pit Fiend for lunch, it might be a wee under-CRed.

also, we're not using level 20 right now.

Sachiel
2008-03-31, 06:04 PM
ew, whoops, i misread.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 08:19 PM
Chosen of Vecna, please grab some dice and roll out the encounters. Post the rolls. I'll take the average and standard deviation and what not. If those end up at reasonable values (within a generous margin, maybe 90th percentile) I won't question anything. Heck, I wouldn't mind checking the dice rolls for the CR 12 encounter as well. Follow strats in the monster manual. If you like you can prep your spell list for "a great evil" (you don't know for sure if it's a single creature), animals & other forest creatures (in general, including unusually dangerous ones), fey (in general) and a single blue dragon (specifically).

The satyr encounter most likely starts beyond 100 feet, btw. So unless they botch their spot checks you get a surprise round full of arrows. In fact, to effectively employ their favorite tactic of sniping from hiding places a distance of 200 feet or more is desirable. The distance they see you at is 10 feet for every point by which they beat the spot DC. They get a -20 to their hide checks whenever firing an arrow, but they get a +1 per 10 feet of distance.

You can only get 7200 feet with a fly spell and it lasts only 6 minutes. So it must be cast after you notice the baddy. A wolf could get that far after not too long, but I suppose it's unlikely he'll pursue. A persistent satyr OTOH, would likely catch up after a while.

I'd say you get a surprise round against the Babau unless he notices you react to his presence, which is unlikely. As for the blue dragon, it depends.

And, btw, how would most mages survive even a short while without mindsight? Ambush, hit, dead or badly hurt. It's not like that's uncommon in dnd. In fact, it seems like 90% of encounters are that way. That's why so many players treasure spot, and so many softies march between 2 meat shields.

Lokey
2008-03-31, 08:35 PM
Well you didn't give me much in the way of specifics...

Facing an Ice Devil, I'll spontaneously channel my Orb of Fire into an Assay Resistance, then let loose a Fleshshiver, beating it's spell resistance on a 2. I would personally be flying, but let's assume that it keeps up Fly all the time since it has it at will.

Because its HD is higher then my CL, it makes two saves, the first one for a 1 round stun, the second one round later for 1d4+2 rounds of Nausea and 13d6 damage. It has a fairly good chance of failing one of these saves. (DC 25 to it's +15 Fort)
...

Yeah, I was thinking of a way that it would come down to initiative. I.e. my DMing intention would be to get the Ice Devil able to do something. Your +8 to initiative from your familiar though, the poor, poor monsters, and the Mindbender abilities sound really sweet, too sweet for a mean DM like me (though Arcane Sight and a few others do similar things) ;)

Does poison immunity prevent/ameliorate nausea, I'm guessing not on a general basis? http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=4416 Single target, but what's the descriptors on fleshshiver? That's a real BBEG bad day in a can.

Ok, optional 5th encounter. Face your character's level 10 version (that's about CR 12?) Wait, maybe we should add him in with the Giant Squids lol.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 08:46 PM
I'll take the average and standard deviation and what not. If those end up at reasonable values (within a generous margin, maybe 90th percentile) I won't question anything.

To be perfectly honest, these sentences me nothing to me, but I'll just use the forum roller.

EDIT: Actually no I won't because that would take 400 posts, never mind. Dice it is (though I lost my d4, so I'll have to generate that one:smallfrown: )


Follow strats in the monster manual. If you like you can prep your spell list for "a great evil", animals (in general, including unusually dangerous animals), fey (in general) and a blue dragon (specifically).

The problem is that the Babua entry in the MM has no tactics, just a general guide to "Fight dirty and never get into a fair fight." and a general tactic of "eliminate the most powerful targets first." Not very helpful. Give me a Babua and I'll eliminate most 6th level parties if played that way, because Greater Teleport at will is that powerful.


The satyr encounter most likely starts beyond 100 feet, btw. So unless they botch their spot checks you get a surprise round full of arrows. In fact, to effectively employ their favorite tactic of sniping from hiding places a distance of 200 feet or more is desirable. The distance they see you at is 10 feet for every point by which they beat the spot DC. They get a -20 to their hide checks whenever firing an arrow, but they get a +1 per 10 feet of distance.

I haven't gotten anywhere near looking at that yet, so I'll worry about that when I get there.


You can only get 7200 feet with a fly spell and it lasts only 6 minutes. So it must be cast after you notice the baddy. A wolf could get that far after not too long, but I suppose it's unlikely he'll pursue. A persistent satyr OTOH, would likely catch up after a while.

I only intend to cast it when I notice the baddy, and that is my point, 7200ft away six minutes later by the air is not something Wolves follow.


And, btw, how would most mages survive even a short while without mindsight? Ambush, hit, dead or badly hurt. It's not like that's uncommon in dnd. In fact, it seems like 90% of encounters are that way. That's why so many players treasure spot.

The short answer is they don't. It's a party game, and nowhere did I claim that low level Wizards can solo the game. I merely choose to offer to solo single encounters (more with the level 12, and he also has a group.) because I don't have the players to join me.

My only point through this entire thread has been that given a general spell list, without any special preparation, Wizards are incredibly useful no matter who they are facing. This was directed squarely against the first paragraph of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4126196&postcount=49) post of yours.

It has nothing to do with a Wizard soloing everything, and everything to do with a Wizard being just as useful when he doesn't know what's coming.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 09:01 PM
[QUOTE=ericgrau;
And, btw, how would most mages survive even a short while without mindsight? Ambush, hit, dead or badly hurt. It's not like that's uncommon in dnd. In fact, it seems like 90% of encounters are that way. That's why so many players treasure spot, and so many softies march between 2 meat shields.[/QUOTE]

Because most encounters *aren't* actually ambushes.
Because most mages are in an adventuring *party*, with a scout.

Besides which, mages have access to Dragonsight (SpC), which gives Darkvision 10ft/CL, Blindsense 5ft/CL, and half the normal penalties for spot checks. For hours/level.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 09:27 PM
Demon:
Round 1: Surprise goes to me: I cast Displacement.

Init: Him 6, me 31. If only I could go multiple times before he went.

Round 2: Me: move closer, fire Ray of Clumsiness: 4+5=9 on attack role, no hit.
Him: charge 2+14 , hits, percentile low is miss: 33, miss.

Round 3:Move action away, no AoO from conealment, Ray of Clumsiness 6+5 hits AC 9/CL check 3+6=9<14 no effect.
Him charge 18+14 hit percentile 36 miss.

Round 4:Move action away, Ray of Clumsiness 16+5 hits AC 9/CL 9+5=14 effects 4+2 Dex penalty.
Him: Charge 9+14 hit, percentile 87 hit, 5+5 damage.

Round 5: Move action, Phantasmal Assailants DC 18 will and Fort. CL 19+6>14
Will: 1+6 fail, Fort 10+10 success. 4 dex and wisdom damage.
Him: Charge 7+14 hit, percentile 68 hit 1+5 damage

Round 6: Move action, Ray of Exhaustion touch 12+5>AC 4/CL 16+6>14 Fort save DC 19: 8+10 fail, either way, unconscious coup de grace for remaining rounds.

Of course there are a thousand way he could have beaten me by playing smarter, but of course he could, that's why he's an LA - character, because his abilities are too good for that level.

But this whole issue is moot, because if this were a real party situation, I would have hasted the fighter, and proved that I had a good spell for the occasion. Sure I could know Demon Fiddle, and easily beat him, but Haste works pretty damn well too, and makes me a primary contributer to combat.

Dire wolves:
When the wolves are 100ft away I use Alacritous Cognition to cast Fly as a full round action. Since they cannot reach me, and don't know that they need to break stealth and don't know that I am aware of them, they continue as normal.

I then fly off, and they don't follow me because they can't even see me except as another spec in the sky.

Also a bad example of my principle because I wouldn't escape with my party. I'm going to stop commenting on how these don't prove or disprove my point and just treat this as a fun exercise from now on.

Satyr's:
At 100ft (just outside my Mindsight) they have a +5 to Spot, I have a +3 to Hide. I'm going to assume that they get one attack off: at +1:
4, 5, 16, 6 one hit for 2+1 damage.

5+13+ 18 Init, they all roll under it (5, 11, either six or nine, didn't care and 14)

Then I cast Stinking Cloud at them, and all but 1 fails the fort save, being Nauseated for 4+1 rounds after leaving the cloud.

Another attack 19+1 crit threat Confirm 9+1 fails.6+2 damage. They all move out of the cloud.

Expeditious retreat on self 10+1 miss.

Run/Double move away for duration. No idea how to judge escape, but going to say I succeed because I am biased and it seems like a lot of hassle to go after one guy who didn't do anything to them and is a lot of trouble.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 09:45 PM
As for the linked post, I basically meant that the mage can be good at everything, but only uber under narrow circumstances. And that likewise mages are usually better than other classes but not by a wide margin as is popularly believed. In fact when I played my sorceror before I was extremely careful to make sure all his spells could be used all the time. In fact he made frequent use of all but 2-3 of his spells. And as a sorc you know he has no obligation to use all his known spells.

EDIT #2: I deleted my rambling simply b/c it was a tangent, but the quote below is accurate. I also added then deleted additonal rambling saying how the party evoker and ranger/barbarian were more effective (much like Vaarsuvius and Belkar), as they did the actual killing even before I came.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 09:54 PM
My sorc's major advantage was his ability to effortlessly disable half the enemies (temporarily) and leave the other half for them.

This is exactly what Wizards do. And it's why they are awesome, though sometimes it is all the enemies. Just look at my 3rd level spells, Stinking Cloud, Vertigo Field, Ray of Exhaustion, Haste. These things exist because I can use them to turn any encounter from, "Okay, this is going to be a tough fight." into, "Slaughter the helpless people/person."

You can't argue that Wizards are not uber when they are facing something they didn't see coming when their default stance against anything is uber towards everything. If you measure effectiveness in damage done Wizards don't look uber, but if you measure it in actual effectiveness then they start uber and get better.

Worira
2008-03-31, 10:13 PM
Again, over-optimization. Good SR will stop most wizards from using a good chunk of their better spells. Really, this whole discussion depends upon theoretical or experimental wizards.

Theoretically, Wizards are amazing. They can kill anything with some spell from a book none of us have ever heard of.

In reality, what player is going to spend 20-30 dollars on a book for one spell? I use PHB and Spell Compendium for all my spells. That's it. But if the guy next to me pulls out ten books, and starts writing down spells from all of them, I would be suprised.

Just my experiance.

It's funny because two spells were mentioned, one core and one from the SpC.

ericgrau
2008-03-31, 10:31 PM
This is exactly what Wizards do. And it's why they are awesome, though sometimes it is all the enemies. Just look at my 3rd level spells, Stinking Cloud, Vertigo Field, Ray of Exhaustion, Haste. These things exist because I can use them to turn any encounter from, "Okay, this is going to be a tough fight." into, "Slaughter the helpless people/person."

You can't argue that Wizards are not uber when they are facing something they didn't see coming when their default stance against anything is uber towards everything. If you measure effectiveness in damage done Wizards don't look uber, but if you measure it in actual effectiveness then they start uber and get better.

When I came in the party was already doing pretty well, though sometimes there was a tough encounter. After I came in I admit I helped make many encounters trivial, sometimes I was frustrated that I could only make them easier, and I admit that I was 5 levels behind them (oops, did I forget to mention that earlier? Heh). But later we had a fight where the evoker hid in his prismatic sphere, and the ranger/barb fell victim to a maze. It was long and drawn out, with many wounded who kept needing healing. I kept slowing down the enemies, until finally the weaker party members picked off the antimagic field wielding apprentice. Then the evoker came out of hiding and quickly ended the battle. Point is, the sorc was only strong because he magnified the uber characters. Only reason it worked was because we had a very large party including 2 very strong members, so if I picked a killer 5 levels behind it wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

Under other circumstances getting the job done directly would have been better. Though really you build a party to complement eachother, each member is essential and no one is actually that far above the rest. Even if he may seem more spectacular than the grunt-work party members whom he needs to be what he is.

Roy: "Belkar, guard the casters."
Belkar: "<Grumble>." (Belkar leaves to have fun killing, casters immediately lose their effectiveness)

That's really it right there. People just like casters better. Its not that they're that much more powerful, it's that their role is more showy and fun.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-31, 10:50 PM
Point is, the sorc was only strong because he magnified the uber characters. Only reason it worked was because we had a very large party including 2 very strong members, so if I picked a killer 5 levels behind it wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

That's my point, you aren't magnifying uber characters as a control character, you are the uber character, everyone else does your grunt work.

A series of Satyrs jump you, who's more uber the Wizard that makes it so they can't attack for the next 3-5 rounds, or the fighters that kill the helpless bunnies in those 5 rounds. Killing something that is defenseless is nothing awesome, making something stand still and not attack while the fighter kills it is awesome.

Fighter: Oh look a Balor, I can kill that in 4 rounds, too bad it can kill me in two.
Wizard: Casts Stun Ray, Now it's stunned for the next 3 rounds, have fun. I'll hit it with another one in two rounds just in case.
Fighter: Man this thing has higher AC then the training dummies I'm used to.


Roy: "Belkar, guard the casters."
Belkar: "<Grumble>." (Belkar sneaks off, casters quickly become neutralized)

The thing is in D&D it's usually the casters guarding everyone else.

Tarinth
2008-03-31, 10:56 PM
Ok, I know the discussion has moved on, but I wanna go back to magic missile and give my possibly redundant two cents and say why we don't want to go down this force theory road even if it does make sense.
First, if magic missile is a physical force attack, then damage reduction would apply, making our old favorite signiature spell gimpy against allot of creatures.
Second, if you can kill a bunch of targets just by interupting their airborn momentum, that's a little overpowered for a first level spell. Granted, it would always be a very rare circumstance.
I agree that common sense physics should apply in most circumstances, but I doubt the spell was intended to work this way. Also, the spell never specifies a weight for the magic missiles which goes along with Chronos' comment on momentum. A one ounce missile won't stop a jumper, while a hundred pounder would do quite nicely. We don't know, so lets not make assumptions and jump to conclusions.

Emperor Tippy
2008-03-31, 11:08 PM
As for the linked post, I basically meant that the mage can be good at everything, but only uber under narrow circumstances. And that likewise mages are usually better than other classes but not by a wide margin as is popularly believed.

At level 20 my wizard has the following buffs on at all times:

Astral Projection (lasts until I end it or the AP is destroyed)
Shapechange (Incantatrix Persist)
Superior Invisibility (Incantatrix Persist)
Dragonsight (lasts 24 hours anyways)
Metal Guard (Incantatrix Persist)
Greater Anticipate Teleport (lasts 24 hours)
Greater Blink (Incantatrix Persist)
Foresight (Incantatrix Persist)

I have a mithral buckler with Soulfire on it and a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

So what does all of that mean?

Astral Projection: If you manage to kill me it does nothing.
Superior Invisibility: If you don't have True Seeing up you can't detect me in any way.
Dragonsight: I have darkvision, blindsight, and a few other sight boosts
Iron Guard: No metal weapon can hurt me, at all, ever.
Greater Blink: Lots of nice benefits including a miss chance
Foresight: Can't ever be flat footed
Greater Anticipate Teleport: I get 3 rounds notice if you try to port to me.
Soulfire: No death effects work on me.
Freedom of Movement: lots of nice benefits, look it up
Shapechange: Turn into a Shadesteel Golem for all the golem traits, a 30 foot perfect fly speed, and medium size.

So after you find me you have to find a way to harm me that doesn't involve fort saves, death effects, mind effecting effects, SR: Yes spells, metal, and a few other things.
-----
Now if my enemy is just a minor nuisance (like a fighter) I just wail away at him from a distance with the Shadesteel golems negative energy attack or shapechange into a dragon for breath weapon fun. If said enemy is a real problem I either use Uber envenerations (metamagiced envenerations that deal an average of 17 negative levels each) of which each casting can hit up to 40 targets (and I can whack 1 target with up to 21 of those envenerations). Or I use Uber Orbs which deal over 300 damage each. Which depends on the build.
------


I have run that character through over 100 hours of gameplay and I have yet to change any of my buffs or attacks. Only some utility spells have been changed about (and then rarely).

Wizards can be good in any situation without any prep time.

Collin152
2008-03-31, 11:41 PM
So that's why incantrix is broken...
Though I have no idea how it works, if it can make all those spells last all day...

Reel On, Love
2008-03-31, 11:50 PM
So that's why incantrix is broken...
Though I have no idea how it works, if it can make all those spells last all day...

INT mod/day, you can apply metamagic to a spell that's already been cast by making a Spellcraft check, DC 18 + 3x[Modified spell level].

Solo
2008-04-01, 12:00 AM
Theoretically, Wizards are amazing. They can kill anything with some spell from a book none of us have ever heard of.

I have a core sorcerer build that can kick ass and drink cups of tea. Want to see it? Just follow the link in my sig.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 12:35 AM
So that's why incantrix is broken...
Though I have no idea how it works, if it can make all those spells last all day...

The thing is at level 20, even with no Incantatrix you can have all but Metal Guard and Greater Blink up for 8 hours straight every day. So just confine your adventuring to 8 hours, and you have nearly the same thing.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 12:43 AM
I wonder if Planar Druids are more powerful than Incantatrixes...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-01, 07:59 AM
At level 20 my wizard has the following buffs on at all times:

Astral Projection (lasts until I end it or the AP is destroyed)
Shapechange (Incantatrix Persist)
Superior Invisibility (Incantatrix Persist)
Dragonsight (lasts 24 hours anyways)
Metal Guard (Incantatrix Persist)
Greater Anticipate Teleport (lasts 24 hours)
Greater Blink (Incantatrix Persist)
Foresight (Incantatrix Persist)



Nice spell buffs. Basically unbeatable buffs in a game without foreknowledge of what you are going up against. Since it is such a great buff perhaps it becomes one of the default buffs in game. I find it interesting depending on how the various spells interact in different games.

Curious regarding your thoughts with the spell caster encountering another being with the same buffs and a Contingency for some of the spell interactions specifically Mindblank, True Seeing (Div), Foresight (Div) and Superior Invisibility with another spellcaster having the same buffs and the properly worded Contingency.

My thought is that each wizard's Mindblank cancels out the Foresight divination spell each other wizard would have up. Neither Foresight detects the other Mindblanked wizard and is basically ineffective versus the other wizard similar to losing your dexterity bonus you can be surprised or flat footed since the Foresight divination spell is negated by the other mindblank.

Mindblank would also negate a True seeing buff since it is a divination spell so Superior Invisiblity would normally have to be bypassed creatively mundanely (flour, paint, water spray as per the spell (foot prints)).

So if another Mindblanked being arrived via teleportation (lets say a Wish or Greater Miracle (should be within the power of the spell in most games)) with a "properly worded" contingency set to trigger an Antimagic Field teleporting to the wizard upon arrival (No 3 round time delay) entering an Anticipate Teleport field.

Shouldn't that constitute cutting the Astral Cord?

The wizard isn't a summoned creature and Astral Projection isn't an instantaneous spell. The Astral Projection spell is suppressed not dispelled by the Antimagic Field. The wizard's real body is on another plane, separated from his soul but the spell can't return the soul to his body like normal since it is suppressed.

P.S. You are a very knowledgeable player and I'm sure your PC normally has various types of other Contingencies set up via other spells and using suggested wealth by level. Since they weren't addressed in the original post let's keep it simple and leave them out of the discussion. I am only inquiring regarding the spell interaction for the spell the wizard had posted and another being coming in with the same buffs and a properly worded Contingency to trigger an Anti magic Field. Thanks.

Funkyodor
2008-04-01, 08:06 AM
I seem to remember a thread some time ago about Spell Preparation vs. Spells per Day. My search-fu is no good on this site, I either get 50 pages of threads or none...

But it seems to me if a Wizard can use spells for 24 hour buffs, then rest and replace those spent spells with new ones, then later on in the day rest again to replenish spent spells; the problem rests less with the spells themselves and more with the quantity per day. I don't have a problem with a caster that wants to use 1/4 of his spells as buffs (higher level ones at that), and later rest for a bit to prepare spells in available slots. But when they're trying to drunken-rules-fu their way into casting more than they're supposed to, I got a problem.

It would be the equivalent of tossing an spent Eternal Wand into a bag of holding with a Familiar, ordering it to rest, and then expecting the wand fully charged after 8 hours.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 04:57 PM
tippy, doesnt Incantatrix's thing that let's you do Sudden metamagic only work twice/day?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:01 PM
doesnt Incantatrix's thing that let's you do Sudden metamagic only work twice/day?

The 3.0 version is twice a day at level 9, the 3.5 version is Int Mod per day at level 10.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:04 PM
Are you *sure*?

I still only see it as 2/day in the 3.5 version, and that's at level 9. At level 10 you get Improved metamagic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:07 PM
tippy, doesnt Incantatrix's thing that let's you do Sudden metamagic only work twice/day?

I wasn't using any sudden meta magic. At least not in that build.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:07 PM
Are you *sure*?

Eeeer... Sure is such a broad term.... eeer. maybe:smallredface:

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:17 PM
I wasn't using any sudden meta magic. At least not in that build.


It's not called Sudden, but it's basically what it is. You get to apply a metamagic without increasing costs twice per day at level 9. I dunno how you're persisting so many spells.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:31 PM
It's not called Sudden, but it's basically what it is. You get to apply a metamagic without increasing costs twice per day at level 9. I dunno how you're persisting so many spells.

You can't instant meta a spell above an effective 9th level slot. I'm using Metamagic Effect to apply persist to those spells after I cast them on myself. With an Int of 30 you have 13 uses per day.

If you have a buddy you can use Cooperative meta instead.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:34 PM
Wait...you mean you're not limited to static things like Wall of Force? you can use Metamagic Effect on your BUFFS? Holy crap, I am saying goodbye to Iot7v and picking up persist spell.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 05:42 PM
Wait...you mean you're not limited to static things like Wall of Force? you can use Metamagic Effect on your BUFFS? Holy crap, I am saying goodbye to Iot7v and picking up persist spell.

Uh, yeah. Any spell with a non instantaneous duration is a valid target.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-02, 05:47 PM
At level 20 my wizard has the following buffs on at all times:

Astral Projection (lasts until I end it or the AP is destroyed)
Shapechange (Incantatrix Persist)
Superior Invisibility (Incantatrix Persist)
Dragonsight (lasts 24 hours anyways)
Metal Guard (Incantatrix Persist)
Greater Anticipate Teleport (lasts 24 hours)
Greater Blink (Incantatrix Persist)
Foresight (Incantatrix Persist)

I have a mithral buckler with Soulfire on it and a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

So what does all of that mean?

Astral Projection: If you manage to kill me it does nothing.
Superior Invisibility: If you don't have True Seeing up you can't detect me in any way.
Dragonsight: I have darkvision, blindsight, and a few other sight boosts
Iron Guard: No metal weapon can hurt me, at all, ever.
Greater Blink: Lots of nice benefits including a miss chance
Foresight: Can't ever be flat footed
Greater Anticipate Teleport: I get 3 rounds notice if you try to port to me.
Soulfire: No death effects work on me.
Freedom of Movement: lots of nice benefits, look it up
Shapechange: Turn into a Shadesteel Golem for all the golem traits, a 30 foot perfect fly speed, and medium size.

So after you find me you have to find a way to harm me that doesn't involve fort saves, death effects, mind effecting effects, SR: Yes spells, metal, and a few other things.
-----
Now if my enemy is just a minor nuisance (like a fighter) I just wail away at him from a distance with the Shadesteel golems negative energy attack or shapechange into a dragon for breath weapon fun. If said enemy is a real problem I either use Uber envenerations (metamagiced envenerations that deal an average of 17 negative levels each) of which each casting can hit up to 40 targets (and I can whack 1 target with up to 21 of those envenerations). Or I use Uber Orbs which deal over 300 damage each. Which depends on the build.
------


I have run that character through over 100 hours of gameplay and I have yet to change any of my buffs or attacks. Only some utility spells have been changed about (and then rarely).

Wizards can be good in any situation without any prep time.

Hmmm...my, arent' rules outside core just a fountain of great stuff?:smallsmile:
Sorry to interrupt this display of awesomeness.:smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, what about this challenge: maxed initiative non-caster (say, a fighter) with high hp and intelligent purpose item able to cast dimension door (you could also do it yourself with a teleport used with belt of battle, whatever). You are dim doored above the caster (assume this outside the range of anticipate teleport). Non-caster readies standard action to cast (UMD, spell storing) AMF when noncaster pops out 100s feet above wizard.

Then non-caster falls on wizard, both are prone. All wizard buffs are gone. Wizard is dead (and I am not counting the damage from the falling fighter on wizard's head, the situation is already hilarious enough....:smallamused: ).
Basically it boils down to who wins initiative...

Easier yet, you try to find the body of the astrally projected wizard somewhere on the prime material plane (possibly even a wand of legend lore might do it, note that the body cannot be protected by mind blank). All the buffs will not help the lifeless body.

- Giacomo

PS: the wind wall/fly combo does not work. The wall needs to be on the ground. So the archer fighter will be quite a threat, for quite a long time...(in particular with seeking arrows, in particular with high initiative)

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:47 PM
Wow. But...let's say you wanna persist a level 7 spell. that's like, a level 12 slot. 18 + 3*12 = 54. You can make that high of Spellcraft checks?

I forgot. What happens if you fail the check? And also, can you persist buffs that are on other people?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 05:49 PM
Which is the real reason why Incantatrix is so awesome. -1 to meta effects is fun and cool, but persisted everything is real awesomeness.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:50 PM
Wow. But...let's say you wanna persist a level 7 spell. that's like, a level 12 slot. 18 + 3*12 = 54. You can make that high of Spellcraft checks?

I forgot. What happens if you fail the check? And also, can you persist buffs that are on other people?

luck stone, big int mod, item of masterwork skill asissting item, magic item of +10 skill bonus, if needs be moment of prescience, etc.....

Check out the CharOp boards on the wizard site for building a ridiculous skill bonus.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:51 PM
Hmmm...my, arent' rules outside core just a fountain of great stuff?:smallsmile:
Sorry to interrupt this display of awesomeness.:smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, what about this challenge: maxed initiative non-caster (say, a fighter) with high hp and intelligent purpose item able to cast dimension door (you could also do it yourself with a teleport used with belt of battle, whatever). You are dim doored above the caster (assume this outside the range of anticipate teleport). Non-caster readies standard action to cast (UMD, spell storing) AMF when you pop 100s feet above wizard.

Then you fall on him, both are prone. All wizard buffs are gone. Wizard is dead (and I am not counting the damage from the falling fighter on wizard's head, the situation is already hilarious enough....:smallamused: ).
Basically it boils down to who wins initiative.

I'm sure you can' do it yourself even iwht a belt of battle. You can't take any actions after you use DD. An intelligent item may do the trick. However, this still doesn't stop the caster from casting Celerity to gain an action. This is not instant win because the wizard always gets a chance to use an immediate action.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 05:52 PM
luck stone, big int mod, item of masterwork skill asissting item, magic item of +10 skill bonus, if needs be moment of prescience, etc.....

Check out the CharOp boards on the wizard site for building a ridiculous skill bonus.

Masterwork item huh? I'll have to try that. What does Luckstone do?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-02, 05:54 PM
Masterwork item huh? I'll have to try that. What does Luckstone do?

+1 to any skill roll, pretty much any roll really. 20k gp from the DMG.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 05:55 PM
And just in case, get a Luck Blade. IF, amazingly, you fail the spellcraft check, you can reroll. Ya feelin' lucky punk? Well, are ya?

Solo
2008-04-02, 05:57 PM
Hmmm...my, arent' rules outside core just a fountain of great stuff?:smallsmile:
Sorry to interrupt this display of awesomeness.:smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, what about this challenge: maxed initiative non-caster (say, a fighter) with high hp and intelligent purpose item able to cast dimension door (you could also do it yourself with a teleport used with belt of battle, whatever). You are dim doored above the caster (assume this outside the range of anticipate teleport). Non-caster readies standard action to cast (UMD, spell storing) AMF when noncaster pops out 100s feet above wizard.

Then non-caster falls on wizard, both are prone. All wizard buffs are gone. Wizard is dead (and I am not counting the damage from the falling fighter on wizard's head, the situation is already hilarious enough....:smallamused: ).
Basically it boils down to who wins initiative...


Miss chance from Greater Blink.



Easier yet, you try to find the body of the astrally projected wizard somewhere on the prime material plane (possibly even a wand of legend lore might do it, note that the body cannot be protected by mind blank). All the buffs will not help the lifeless body.

Because wizards who are so powerful will leave their bodies in an unguarded safety deposit box somewhere.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 05:59 PM
Also, add one "buff" to Tippy's list: Genesis. Then, Rope trick and THEN proceed to cast away.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 06:04 PM
Hmmm...my, arent' rules outside core just a fountain of great stuff?:smallsmile:
Sorry to interrupt this display of awesomeness.:smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, what about this challenge: maxed initiative non-caster (say, a fighter) with high hp and intelligent purpose item able to cast dimension door (you could also do it yourself with a teleport used with belt of battle, whatever). You are dim doored above the caster (assume this outside the range of anticipate teleport). Non-caster readies standard action to cast (UMD, spell storing) AMF when you pop 100s feet above wizard.

Then you fall on him, both are prone. All wizard buffs are gone. Wizard is dead (and I am not counting the damage from the falling fighter on wizard's head, the situation is already hilarious enough....:smallamused: ).
Basically it boils down to who wins initiative...
Ignoring how the fighter managed to locate the wizard (look up Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank, comboed you are completely undetectable). Foresight negates surprise meaning that my wizard can cast Greater Celerity, at which time he teleports away. Or deals with the fighter (it depends on the wizards mood and schedule)


Easier yet, you try to find the body of the astrally projected wizard somewhere on the prime material plane (possibly even a wand of legend lore might do it, note that the body cannot be protected by mind blank). All the buffs will not help the lifeless body.

- Giacomo
You mean the body that has a craft contingent spell on it with an activation condition of "If any creature or object not within 10 feet of me when say 'Zandokrakow' comes within 10 feet of me in the time between me saying 'Zandokrakow' and me saying 'Rathroperero' cast greater dispel magic on me to dispel my Astral Projection" thats sitting inside a sphere shaped wall of stone, inside a permanent Private Sanctum, inside a permanent Prismatic Sphere?

So after you manage to locate me (maybe epic magic?) you have to reach me, which you can't do with teleport. And then you have to get through my Prismatic Sphere, at which point you are within 10 feet of me and my greater dispel goes off. Meaning I wake up while your still outside the Stone Sphere so I cast greater celerity followed by greater teleport.




Wow. But...let's say you wanna persist a level 7 spell. that's like, a level 12 slot. 18 + 3*12 = 54. You can make that high of Spellcraft checks?
Yeah.


I forgot. What happens if you fail the check?
Nothing, except you expend the use of metamagic effect.

And also, can you persist buffs that are on other people?
Yes. But it burns through your uses quickly.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 06:19 PM
So...cooperate metamagic to persist the chained reached Death Ward so I can Persist it?

Maybe we need to buy a metamagic rod of chain, or have the cleric buy one.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 06:25 PM
So...cooperate metamagic to persist the chained reached Death Ward so I can Persist it?
Yep.


Maybe we need to buy a metamagic rod of chain, or have the cleric buy one.
Yeah. Or just get a second Incantatrix. That way you can apply persist with coop so the whole party gets in on the fun.

Aquillion
2008-04-02, 06:29 PM
Ignoring how the fighter managed to locate the wizard (look up Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank, comboed you are completely undetectable).
Metafaculty.

...just sayin'. They'd need to find a seer to manifest it, of course, and it would exceed the amount you're allowed to pay anyone for with its 1000 xp cost. But there is technically at least one printed ability capable of defeating both of those, so you're not completely undetectable. (They could use Leadership to get a seer, if we're using that.)

If they've never seen you before (which Metafaculty requires), they can use Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to get a vision of you from the past, and Hypercognition to determine where/when to look and which of the people in thatp ast is you -- StPI provides no special information, but it'll let them 'see you' even if you have Mind Blank up now by looking back to when you didn't, and they can then use Hypercognition and Metafaculty to get all the information they want.

Also, Hypercognition is absurdly dangerous. No matter how "batman" your wizard is, a Seer with Hypercognition actually is batman, and as long as you have a weak point they're going to be able to deduce it. You might think you've left no way for your location to be determined, but the scuff of dirt your boots left on a wall 17 years ago says otherwise. It even says that it " is capable of possibly even extracting echoes of knowledge from the Astral Plane", which is very, very bad news to anyone trying to use Astral Projection while hiding their real body.

There is no defense against Hypercognition. It's capable of defeating any defenses you have up, too -- it's the exact power that lets someone stop just before triggering your Contingency and say "Actually, wait. Considering what I've learned about this wizard, I deduce that he would have set up his defenses like so -- it is in keeping with what I know about his character. Therefore, I will attack his body as follows, which I deduce would be the most difficult and unlikely attack to set up a contingency against..."

Frosty
2008-04-02, 06:35 PM
No go on the second incantatrix. Party has already been determined. We got these peeps:

Unicorn Paladin PC with an Elven female Cleric cohort rider
My Human Incantator
Changeling Factoctum/Chameleon
Orc Barbarian/Fighter/Frenzied Berserker

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 06:41 PM
To Leadership:

Come 'ere baby! *Plays Matthew Sweet's Girlfriend*... And I'm never gonna set you free!

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 07:01 PM
@Aquillion

At which point I'm contending with a Psion. Not the fighter.

Hypercognition would just tell him that he has no way to kill me " The nature of the knowledge you gain concerning the subject of your analysis might include the answer to a riddle, the way out of a maze, stray bits of information about a person, legends about a place or an object, or even a conclusion concerning a dilemma that your conscious mind is unable to arrive at."

The conclusion is that said Psion can't kill or get rid of me by himself. It doesn't give a whole plan on how to kill me.

As for Metafaculty, he has to beat a DC of about 32. And to use it you have to have seen me before, since this is supposedly a highered Psion that is unlikely. And scrying is out because of Mindblank.

Rutee
2008-04-02, 08:08 PM
Actually he covered 'seeing' you before using abuse best labelled as time travel.

Honestly what's the point of all this though? You don't seem to care that Wizards are as broken as they are so why go through all these hoops and escalation games of quien es mas macho?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 08:16 PM
Actually he covered 'seeing' you before using abuse best labelled as time travel.

Honestly what's the point of all this though? You don't seem to care that Wizards are as broken as they are so why go through all these hoops and escalation games of quien es mas macho?

I don't really care how broken anything is personally. But I find it fun and entertaining to see what I can do with the rules and spell interactions and as an added benefit I might cure someone of the belief that D&D is balanced or that wizards aren't overpowered.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-02, 08:21 PM
Plus, Macho en el Patio de recreo is a nice title. :smalltongue:

PS: Hey, I can use spanish! Note: I has another talent.

Aquillion
2008-04-02, 08:22 PM
Hypercognition would just tell him that he has no way to kill me " The nature of the knowledge you gain concerning the subject of your analysis might include the answer to a riddle, the way out of a maze, stray bits of information about a person, legends about a place or an object, or even a conclusion concerning a dilemma that your conscious mind is unable to arrive at."Even a hint to your location would be dangerous enough to worry about, and hypercognition could do that. After he's located you, he can use it again to assess your defenses.

And since contingency has limitations (if you make it too complex, it might simply fail), a psion who knows anything at all about it would be able to put those scraps of information together via Hypercognition in combination with what he knows about you as a person (from his examination of your past via Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, among other things) to determine the methods of attack that your contingency is least likely to protect against.

Mind Blank protects you against things that scan the area you are in, not the area where you were. You might be able to argue that it could prevent someone from looking back at a period when you had it up, but it seems like more than a stretch to argue that it can prevent someone from using Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to examine the traces of your past you left on another plane of existence years ago.


Honestly what's the point of all this though? You don't seem to care that Wizards are as broken as they are so why go through all these hoops and escalation games of quien es mas macho?Because it's fun. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 08:44 PM
Even a hint to your location would be dangerous enough to worry about, and hypercognition could do that. After he's located you, he can use it again to assess your defenses.

And since contingency has limitations (if you make it too complex, it might simply fail), a psion who knows anything at all about it would be able to put those scraps of information together via Hypercognition in combination with what he knows about you as a person (from his examination of your past via Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions, among other things) to determine the methods of attack that your contingency is least likely to protect against.

Mind Blank protects you against things that scan the area you are in, not the area where you were. You might be able to argue that it could prevent someone from looking back at a period when you had it up, but it seems like more than a stretch to argue that it can prevent someone from using Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to examine the traces of your past you left on another plane of existence years ago.

Actually, by RAW, Mind Blank beats Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions. The real kicker on mind blank is "as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects". It's blanket immunity and because of Psionic-Magic transparency all Clairsentience powers are treated as divinations.

It's debatable whether or not you can even get away with Hypercognition in regards to a Mind Blanked subject.

Rutee
2008-04-02, 08:48 PM
Technically, it's looking at the /past/ you, not the you of the present that has the buff.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 08:59 PM
Technically, it's looking at the /past/ you, not the you of the present that has the buff.

Doesn't matter. Its using a "divination" power to gather information about you. Per RAW it doesn't work. No matter the time or the caster.

Worira
2008-04-02, 09:26 PM
@Aquillion

At which point I'm contending with a Psion. Not the fighter.

Hypercognition would just tell him that he has no way to kill me " The nature of the knowledge you gain concerning the subject of your analysis might include the answer to a riddle, the way out of a maze, stray bits of information about a person, legends about a place or an object, or even a conclusion concerning a dilemma that your conscious mind is unable to arrive at."

The conclusion is that said Psion can't kill or get rid of me by himself. It doesn't give a whole plan on how to kill me.

As for Metafaculty, he has to beat a DC of about 32. And to use it you have to have seen me before, since this is supposedly a highered Psion that is unlikely. And scrying is out because of Mindblank.

No, hypercognition tells him to dispel the Sanctum, Disjoin the Prismatic Sphere, then disintegrate the Wall of Stone and your body. Or more precisely, to go get someone to do it. And Hypercognition isn't a divination effect to gather information, it's using information you already had.

And Frosty, I find myself unable to look at your new avatar without Kyon saying "Haruhi, you idiot, can't you grope your own breasts!? " in my head.

Rutee
2008-04-02, 09:44 PM
Doesn't matter. Its using a "divination" power to gather information about you. Per RAW it doesn't work. No matter the time or the caster.

It does matter; the divination power isn't targeting the "You" of the present. Unless there's RAW on time travel, I don't think you can legitimately claim RAW covers this.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-02, 11:22 PM
It does matter; the divination power isn't targeting the "You" of the present. Unless there's RAW on time travel, I don't think you can legitimately claim RAW covers this.

Is it a "divination"? Yes.
Is it providing information about me? Yes, my appearance at some point in time.

If those 2 conditions are met then Mind Blank blocks it.

As for hypercognition, it can tell you what to do to destroy my spells but it can't give you my location or tell you how to find my location.

Rutee
2008-04-02, 11:53 PM
It's not gathering it on a you that has Mind Blank. By this logic, if I ever cast Mind Blank once, it protects me from all divination spells ever, regardless of when it's cast.

More to the point, Mind Blank doesn't say that it affects all traces of your existence ever; If I use Divination on your sanctum, and you have Mind Blank, you could probably legitimately claim that you don't show up. You might be able to get away with your reflection in a handy body sized mirror not appearing either. What about pictures or portraits?

That seems to effectively be what this effect does; Gathers an imprint of you that you left a while ago.

Aquillion
2008-04-03, 12:05 AM
Actually, by RAW, Mind Blank beats Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions. The real kicker on mind blank is "as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects". It's blanket immunity and because of Psionic-Magic transparency all Clairsentience powers are treated as divinations.It most certainly does not, no more than it would (say) prevent me from rooting through the magical items you left in your room and using Identify, Detect Magic, and so on to glean information about you through them. It wouldn't protect me from seeing things you've done -- if you slaughter every guard in the castle, then cast Mind Blank, it is absurd to claim that it would prevent me from getting information about what you've done by scrying the castle. The broad interpretation you're trying to claim for that 'information gathering' would contradict itself in nonsensical ways.

In fact, I can prove that your interpretation is wrong through logical deduction.

First. You are claiming that even things you did before you cast Mind Blank and even indirect modes of information gathering will be protected against. Let's see where that leads.

If I know your childhood home, I could arcane eye it to get a sense of where you grew up, and learn things about you like that, using divinations. If I can find your best friends, I could read their minds to learn all about you. From these things, I could even gain information about your mind -- certainly reading the mind of your friends, lovers, and so forth would tell you a great deal about you as a person. By the interpretation you have given, Mind Blank will prevent that, no? I fail to see the difference between those and using Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to view the past.

In other words, you are claiming that if I try to arcane eye your hometown or detect thoughts your girlfriend in order to learn about you, the Mind Blank you cast on yourself will prevent this. There are two ways this could be done: First, it could erase anything pertaining to you from the results (e.g. your girlfriend doesn't appear to remember you when I read her mind, your hometown is as if you've never lived there.) Second, it could simply cause the divination to fail.

Of course, the result of having everything pertaining to you totally (or even partially) erased from the results of my divinations could tell me far more about you than even the simple scrying would ever have revealed -- simply by observing what is absent and what has been erased from history, I could deduce the impact you had on the world, which would be extremely telling. I could determine who your friends were by looking for holes in their memories, or people who I couldn't scry. If I examine the past, in places where I know you were, I could look for incongruous situations, places where someone was plainly erased from the scene, and gain information from that. If someone shows up alive in my divinations who is definitely dead in the real world, that means that there's a good chance their killer is using Mind Blank. And so on.

If I was tracking you down, I would only need to follow the trail of 'incorrect' scrying results -- things where it was obvious that your actions had been erased from my scrying, as verified by my own eyes or by results with an obvious hole in them. (While there are other people in the world with Mind Blank, it's an 8th-level spell, so there aren't that many... once I can get even a slight lead on you by any other means, it should be easy enough to deduce which of the 'broken scrying paths' is your trail.) Every time I looked somewhere and saw a you-shaped hole in events, I would, without question, be gathering information about you using divination spells or effects, which you claim is strictly impossible.

Having divinations be 'tricked' via other methods has similar problems; no matter how clever the trick, the problem is that Mind Blank only tricks supernatural abilities, and would never trick my own eyes or ears. So even if it (say) replaces you with someone else in the divinations and makes it look like your girlfriend has totally new, consistant memories to try to avoid giving away information, this could still end up letting me use divinations to learn about you by observing the difference between those results and reality.

If we want to stick with your interpretation, this leaves is with only one other option: In order for Mind Blank to completely and totally prevent anyone from getting information about you via divinations, it must totally and completely block all divination effects. Period, everywhere, for everyone. If any divinations functioned at all, people could use the information about when they work; therefore, for Mind Blank to function the way you say it does, it must be impossible for anyone but you to use divinations at all while it is in effect.

However, it specifically says that divinations focused on your location function normally, aside from leaving you out of the picture. QED.

Therefore, we must consider alternate interpretations. The logical conclusion is that the text you quoted lists only the spells that can possibly be affected, the ones that are theoretically subjected to Mind Blank's effects. It "protects" against them, yes, in the same way that a Protection from Evil spell 'wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures' -- not by providing absolute protection in all cases, but by providing a limited protection in certain cases as described elsewhere in the spell description.

Those limitations are fairly broad (since it is an 8th-level spell), but they aren't as broad as you're making them out to be. The protection against scrying is specifically described in more detail two sentences later:

In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Note the wording. Scrying that targets an area you are in, not an area where you were. The enchantment is on you specifically, and does not protect your best friend, the footprints you left in the dust, your childhood home, the trail of dead bodies you leave in your wake -- or the psychic impressions of anything you did before you had it up.

It protects completely against direct scrying (or mind-affecting spells and effects, which is its real power), and partially against scrying that incidentally catches you in the area while you are under its effect. Nothing else.


As for hypercognition, it can tell you what to do to destroy my spells but it can't give you my location or tell you how to find my location.Hypercognition follows the same argument above, but in this case it is even stronger, since Hypercognition is nothing but deduction, and I have clearly shown, above, that it is not possible for Mind Blank to have any effect on deduction (since if it does anything at all, it would allow people to learn things about you -- indeed, by your argument, Mind Blank would prevent anyone from using divinations to discover that you are immune to divinations, which is certainly useful information about you. There is, however, absolutely no way Mind Blank can conceal that tidbit.)

Mind Blank is an extremely effective shield around your brain, body, and perhaps your clothes and equipment as well; it provides almost invulnerable protection against spells that target you or encompass you in their specific area of effect. This is why it is eighth level, after all.

But that is all it does, and those are the only things it provides rules for protecting you against; just like many other spells, it gives a general, sweeping description of its effect in the first part, then provides the specific mechanics later on, and the specific mechanics protect only against those two things. It is "Target: One creature", not "Target: The entire universe"; when it comes to effects that do not directly target you or specifically contain you in their area of effect, Mind Blank provides no protection at all. It doesn't erase your past, it doesn't keep people from scrying your hometown, and (as long as nobody is specifically targeting you or your location) it doesn't keep Hypercognition from deducing what you ate for breakfast. (As long as it has something to work with, anyway. Hypercognition can deduce almost anything, but it does have limits, since it's not actually scrying on you.)

Doing something along those lines would certainly require an epic-level effect, at the very least.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 01:17 AM
And Frosty, I find myself unable to look at your new avatar without Kyon saying "Haruhi, you idiot, can't you grope your own breasts!? " in my head.

Why? As far as I can tell, my avatar is one Haruhi molesting another.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-03, 06:36 PM
Well, I'll try to take on the might of Emperor Tippy's wizard maxing fu...truth to tell, I know too little about non-core rules to be able to get equally elegant methods vs the sophisticated spells of a 20th level wizard build, but here are my remarks:

First, @Solo: improved blink maybe does not help... the AMF hits it first. Hmmm...it may be argued that the wizard is just on the etheral plane the moment the AMF gets into range, preventing him to come back...don't have the spell in front of me now


Ignoring how the fighter managed to locate the wizard (look up Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank, comboed you are completely undetectable).

True Seeing? The wizard causing some effects around him/doing adventuring (thus attracting notice)?


Foresight negates surprise meaning that my wizard can cast Greater Celerity, at which time he teleports away. Or deals with the fighter (it depends on the wizards mood and schedule)

Foresight negates surprise, but does not win you initiative automatically. So if the wizard loses initiative, no immediate actions while flat-footed.


You mean the body that has a craft contingent spell on it with an activation condition of "If any creature or object not within 10 feet of me when say 'Zandokrakow' comes within 10 feet of me in the time between me saying 'Zandokrakow' and me saying 'Rathroperero' cast greater dispel magic on me to dispel my Astral Projection" thats sitting inside a sphere shaped wall of stone, inside a permanent Private Sanctum, inside a permanent Prismatic Sphere?

The private sanctum is going to be found quite easily (at level 20, I mean...), since it only blocks scrying, but no higher-level divination. Once in the area, the darkened magical area can be found and recognised with spellcraft. The sanctum can then be dispelled/disjuncted. Better yet (for the fighter), true seeing penetrates it.
Then, a prismatic sphere will not help, a simple etheralness/blink from underneath (if set on the ground) will circumvent it. Ditto the wall of stone.
Then, the contingent wording is clever (replace "me" with "my body", or it will not work, though). But it does not help 100% against someone moving in etherally and activating an AMF - your wizard comes back into his body the moment the etherally sneaking fighter touches the 10ft radius and then initiative is rolled to see who goes first. And of course the wizard will be completely debuffed from his own dispel magic...:smallwink:


So after you manage to locate me (maybe epic magic?) you have to reach me, which you can't do with teleport. And then you have to get through my Prismatic Sphere, at which point you are within 10 feet of me and my greater dispel goes off. Meaning I wake up while your still outside the Stone Sphere so I cast greater celerity followed by greater teleport.

The body of the wizard is not protected with mind blank (the mind is...gone :smallbiggrin: ), so it can be detected/located with the usual divination methods for objects.

- Giacomo

Reel On, Love
2008-04-03, 06:42 PM
Giacomo, Blink/Etherealness still don't go through the prismatic SPHERE. You know, the round thing? That surrounds? From all directions?

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-03, 06:49 PM
From SRD (bold mine):
Prismatic Sphere
Abjuration
Level: Protection 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Sun 9
Components: V
Range: 10 ft.
Effect: 10-ft.-radius sphere centered on you
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.
The sphere’s blindness effect on creatures with less than 8 HD lasts 2d4x10 minutes.
You can pass into and out of the prismatic sphere and remain near it without harm. However, when you’re inside it, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells). Other creatures that attempt to attack you or pass through suffer the effects of each color, one at a time.
Typically, only the upper hemisphere of the globe will exist, since you are at the center of the sphere, so the lower half is usually excluded by the floor surface you are standing on.
The colors of the sphere have the same effects as the colors of a prismatic wall.
Prismatic sphere can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

There may be some means to have the body float in mid-air, somehow...but in core I can't think of any.
And then there is always mage's disjunction...

- Giacomo

- Giacomo

streakster
2008-04-03, 06:51 PM
There may be some means to have the body float in mid-air, somehow...but in core I can't think of any.

- Giacomo

Immovable rod?

Next.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 06:52 PM
Giacomo, I believe Foresight prevents you from being flat-footed period. If you are not surprised, you are not flat-footed. Hence, you always get an immediate action to cast Celerity.

Next.

Collin152
2008-04-03, 06:54 PM
From SRD (bold mine):
Prismatic Sphere
Abjuration
Level: Protection 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Sun 9
Components: V
Range: 10 ft.
Effect: 10-ft.-radius sphere centered on you
This spell functions like prismatic wall, except you conjure up an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light that surrounds you and protects you from all forms of attack. The sphere flashes in all colors of the visible spectrum.
The sphere’s blindness effect on creatures with less than 8 HD lasts 2d4x10 minutes.
You can pass into and out of the prismatic sphere and remain near it without harm. However, when you’re inside it, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells). Other creatures that attempt to attack you or pass through suffer the effects of each color, one at a time.
Typically, only the upper hemisphere of the globe will exist, since you are at the center of the sphere, so the lower half is usually excluded by the floor surface you are standing on.
The colors of the sphere have the same effects as the colors of a prismatic wall.
Prismatic sphere can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

There may be some means to have the body float in mid-air, somehow...but in core I can't think of any.
And then there is always mage's disjunction...

- Giacomo

- Giacomo

It just means that the other half is below ground, and so typically isn't worth noting.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 07:40 PM
True Seeing? The wizard causing some effects around him/doing adventuring (thus attracting notice)?
That doesn't matter. Look up superior invisibility. The only way to pinpoint or locate a character under its effect is with true seeing. No sound escapes, blindsight doesn't work, see invisible doesn't work. It says right out in the spell description "True Seeing only". Mind Blank means that True Seeing does nothing. You can not be targeted, your location can not be determined at all in any way. I suppose if you make your spell craft check after being hit with a spell you may be able to know that I am somewhere within whatever the spells range is.


Foresight negates surprise, but does not win you initiative automatically. So if the wizard loses initiative, no immediate actions while flat-footed.
Come on, this one is core. You are never flatfooted when you have Foresight up. Again, look it up.


The private sanctum is going to be found quite easily (at level 20, I mean...), since it only blocks scrying, but no higher-level divination. Once in the area, the darkened magical area can be found and recognised with spellcraft. The sanctum can then be dispelled/disjuncted. Better yet (for the fighter), true seeing penetrates it.
Actually Private Sanctum blocks any spell of the scrying subschool. And True Seeing can't see into a private sanctum either. Why would you think it could?


Then, a prismatic sphere will not help, a simple etheralness/blink from underneath (if set on the ground) will circumvent it.
Why in the world would I center it on the ground? You can't go underneath.

Ditto the wall of stone.
You can't appear inside of an occupied square and there are no unoccupied squares.

Then, the contingent wording is clever (replace "me" with "my body", or it will not work, though).
Where do you get that stupid idea from? All buffs and items remain on my body. AP makes copies of them for the projection to use.

But it does not help 100% against someone moving in etherally and activating an AMF - your wizard comes back into his body the moment the etherally sneaking fighter touches the 10ft radius and then initiative is rolled to see who goes first.
Seeing as you need line of effect and line of sight to get rid of the prismatic sphere and that to have both of those you would have to be within 10 feet of my body then by the time you get through the Prismatic Sphere, much less the stoen sphere, I will already be awake and gone.

And of course the wizard will be completely debuffed from his own dispel magic...:smallwink:
Um no. Its a targeted dispel magic, only the AP will be dispelled.


The body of the wizard is not protected with mind blank (the mind is...gone :smallbiggrin: ), so it can be detected/located with the usual divination methods for objects.

- Giacomo
Um where did you get that impression?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 07:49 PM
That doesn't matter. Look up superior invisibility. The only way to pinpoint or locate a character under its effect is with true seeing. No sound escapes, blindsight doesn't work, see invisible doesn't work. It says right out in the spell description "True Seeing only". Mind Blank means that True Seeing does nothing. You can not be targeted, your location can not be determined at all in any way. I suppose if you make your spell craft check after being hit with a spell you may be able to know that I am somewhere within whatever the spells range is.
Mind Blank doesn't protect you from True Sight, Tippy.

"The subject is protected from all devices, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions. The spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by Divination spells and effects." Removing an impediment to your sight is not an information gathering spell.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-03, 07:54 PM
Aye. There WAS an item of that blocked True Sight specifically, though. Get it and you're nigh invincible.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 07:54 PM
Mind Blank doesn't protect you from True Sight, Tippy.

"The subject is protected from all devices, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions. The spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by Divination spells and effects." Removing an impediment to your sight is not an information gathering spell.

Seeing me is information gathering and True Sight is a divination spell/effect.

Mind Blank is quite clear that it blocks it. It's not even debatable unless you want to claim that seeing a person doesn't count as gathering information about them.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-03, 07:56 PM
Tippy, you place too much power in Mindblank. That's not how it works. don't insist, or we'll be forced to craft a Joker Psion (To follow the Batman theme) to specifically kick the crap out of one of your standard wizards.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 08:01 PM
Seeing me is information gathering and True Sight is a divination spell/effect.
Incorrect; Invisibility effects are Illusion (Glamer); It's an attack on the target's senses that True Seeing makes irrelevant.


Mind Blank is quite clear that it blocks it. It's not even debatable unless you want to claim that seeing a person doesn't count as gathering information about them.

Incorrect. Mind Blank would be clear if it explicitly stated amongst its examples True Seeing, or if True Seeing were a spell taht read, influenced, or affected your mind or emotions.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 08:21 PM
Is Mind Blank powerful? Yes.
Is it more powerful than it was intended to be? Prolly.
Does it still stop True Seeing? Yes.


1The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. 2This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects 3as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

As written no spell with the divination descriptor can provide any information about the subject. At all. Ever.

True Seeing is a divination spell. You can not use a divination spell to gather information about a mind blanked creature.

True Seeing can provide no information about you. Showing your location counts as providing information.

Until you come up with some definition of "information gathering" that the creatures, location, appearence, spells active, etc aren't included in then True Seeing does not see a mind blanked creature.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 08:24 PM
It isn't an information gathering spell, Tippy. IT's a spell that counteracts your Invisibility. They are not equivalent.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 08:29 PM
It isn't an information gathering spell, Tippy. IT's a spell that counteracts your Invisibility. They are not equivalent.

Information Gathering is not a spell subschool. If it said all scryign spells instead you would have a case. It doesn't. Information Gathering is not defined in the RAW so you use the standard English definition. A creatures appearence and location fall under said English definition.

As written any divination spell, arcane or divine, can not provide any information on a mind blanked creature.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 08:34 PM
You had a better chance before you strayed into human language.

Information gathering would tell you something new. True Seeing does not innately tell you anything. True Seeing prevents you from you having your information gathering faculties from being blocked by Invisibility effects or other Illusory effects.

Frosty
2008-04-03, 10:13 PM
How about Non-detection? That'll work right?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 10:17 PM
Nondetection works in essentially the same way in this regard (Protects you from the uses of others), so I don't see how that would ward or bolster your Invisibility effect in any way.

The trick here, folks, is that Invisibility is effectively an 'attack' on all present that offers no save. True Seeing renders the attack ineffective. That's why anti-Divination effects shouldn't work.

A case could be made for a creature who's invisibility is not an Illusion (Glamer) effect, perhaps, however (and unfortunately)

Frosty
2008-04-03, 10:26 PM
Nondetection might work because the of the spell's language.

"The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as..."

It goes on to list some spells, but it doesn't say that the spells listed are the only ones that Nondetection affects. I'd definitely say that using True Seeing to detect an invisible creature would count as detecting by divination.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 10:29 PM
Except it's not; True Seeing isn't detection. It's adding a conditional immunity to Invisibility and other illusory effect (That condition being "be within 120 feet)

Aquillion
2008-04-03, 10:33 PM
True Seeing is a divination spell. You can not use a divination spell to gather information about a mind blanked creature.You didn't read my post. :smallannoyed:

Even if it was too long, it's still annoying. :smalltongue:

But anyway. You've avoided my question. According to your interpretation, Mind Blank prevents me from getting any information about you with a divination spell.

Learning that you are protected from divination spells by some method certainly counts as gaining information about you. I could learn this, of course, by trying to use a divination that has no save and would not normally fail on you, and failing.

How do you propose Mind Blank would keep me from discovering that you are somehow protected from divinations?

As I explained in my post above, this (and more specific, reasonable examples, like reading your girlfriend's mind or scrying the town where you grew up to gather information on you) shows that your interpretation is incorrect. The sentence you keep quoting is not a complete description of how mind blank works; it is analogous to the line in "protection from evil" that says "This spell wards a creature from attacks by evil creatures" or the line in True Seeing that says "You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are." Prismatic Sphere says that it "protects you from all forms of attack", and yet few would argue that it actually does... things like that are purple prose intended to give a general overview of the spell, while the exact mechanics are detailed further down.

Just like Protection from Evil doesn't make you totally immune to any sort of attack from anything evil, and True Seeing doesn't allow you to see through bluff checks (or to see everything in the universe, which, if you took that one sentence out of context, it would), Mind Blank doesn't totally protect you from everything; instead, the section you quoted is intended as a general overview of what situations the spell's effect can be applicable.

The exact mechanism by which it protects you is listed later on -- and it makes it very clear that it protects you only by (1) squeltching divinations that specifically target you, and (2) erasing you from divinations that scan your current location. Beyond those two cases, it does nothing to protect you from divinations -- it does not, say, shield your girlfriend's mind, too, not even if there is extremely personal information about you inside it.

Collin152
2008-04-03, 10:34 PM
Shapechange into invisible stalker, fill room with steam.
Even True Seeing will not distinguish you.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 10:43 PM
Shapechange into invisible stalker, fill room with steam.
Even True Seeing will not distinguish you.

Perfectly valid way to defeat True Seeing. But it had nothing to do with Mind Blank or Nondetection ~.^

Collin152
2008-04-03, 10:45 PM
Perfectly valid way to defeat True Seeing. But it had nothing to do with Mind Blank or Nondetection ~.^

Nope! But suppose you stacked them?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 10:52 PM
Nope! But suppose you stacked them?

Cast True Seeing on the party spotter. Hide's crossclass for Wizards to start with, so nullifying the magic aspect leaves a relatively easy target for someone who's kept Spot up, I should think.

Collin152
2008-04-03, 11:10 PM
Cast True Seeing on the party spotter. Hide's crossclass for Wizards to start with, so nullifying the magic aspect leaves a relatively easy target for someone who's kept Spot up, I should think.

Seems like a pretty high spot check to me.
I assume theres good reason they are looking in the exact spot the wizard occupies yet still neds to see exactly where he is.

Rutee
2008-04-03, 11:20 PM
He's.. hiding in steam. He's going to be in the steam. Your own situation pretty clearly sets down the area to look in.

And what the hell? I'm not arguing that mages are overpowered. Tippy just has ludicrously liberal interpretations of what "RAW" means oftentimes, or passes his own interpretation off as them. That's all I'm opposing.

Collin152
2008-04-03, 11:24 PM
He's.. hiding in steam. He's going to be in the steam. Your own situation pretty clearly sets down the area to look in.

And what the hell? I'm not arguing that mages are overpowered. Tippy just has ludicrously liberal interpretations of what "RAW" means oftentimes, or passes his own interpretation off as them. That's all I'm opposing.

I haven't taken a side yet.
And still, how do they know Im hiding in steam? Why is this the only place filled with steam? How do they know I'm hiding in this place where a steam filled rom is?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-03, 11:27 PM
What does True Seeing reveal about a Shapechanged creature with Mind Blank up?

You can't argue that it is stopping an illusion. The creature is physically different yet True Seeing reveals its true form. So you agree that Mind Blank should stop True Seeing from revealing the fact that the Shadesteel Golem in front of you is actually an elf (for example)?

Rutee
2008-04-03, 11:49 PM
I haven't taken a side yet.
And still, how do they know Im hiding in steam? Why is this the only place filled with steam? How do they know I'm hiding in this place where a steam filled rom is?

He cast shapechange, then Steam appeared in the room? Or do you mean in a more general sense; I figured we were in a fight-type situation from the word go.

Notwithstanding that Spot is passively active at all times..



You can't argue that it is stopping an illusion. The creature is physically different yet True Seeing reveals its true form. So you agree that Mind Blank should stop True Seeing from revealing the fact that the Shadesteel Golem in front of you is actually an elf (for example)?
I have nfc what a Shadesteel golem is in the first place. Do try and keep yourself somewhat to Core when you want to prove your point; We don't all dive through a million books. But that's a toughy. Since Shapechange isn't an attack on the senses but an actual change to your properties, it would be sensible to rule that by RAW, non-detection would prevent this (Mind Blank, no; As Aquillion pointed out, the "Divinations don't work on you" is purple prose. The game text gives no reason to indicate True Seeing is blocked. Non-detection, however, does, in this context.)

Collin152
2008-04-03, 11:53 PM
He cast shapechange, then Steam appeared in the room? Or do you mean in a more general sense; I figured we were in a fight-type situation from the word go.


It wouldn't be too hard to keep his entire sanctum steamed at all times.
Hell, Gaseous form could hide you well enough.
if True Seeing bypasses transformation, that just takes us back to invisible stalkers, as the yrespond in a special way to True Seeing.

Rutee
2008-04-04, 12:21 AM
Sure. And this all showcases wizards and whatnot as being crazy powerful. I really couldn't care less. I know that, and I don't care to debate it.

Aquillion
2008-04-04, 01:05 AM
What does True Seeing reveal about a Shapechanged creature with Mind Blank up?Well, it either reveals its true form, or reveals that it has mind blank up, for one. Recall that there are really only two options here:

Either True Seeing is considered something similar to scrying targeted at your location (in which case you do not appear at all when someone looks at you using it, bizarrely rendering you invisible), or it isn't, in which case Mind Blank provides no protection (since it certainly isn't targeted at you specifically).

Either case could potentially reveal information about you. The case I suspect you want to happen -- True Seeing continuing to show your 'fake' form -- isn't possible. Mind Blank is very clear on what it does to the scrying attempts that it influences; if it works on True Seeing, then the instant an opponent casts True Seeing, anyone with Mind Blank up effectively becomes invisible to them. (Which, if they cast while you're there, makes it fairly obvious you're using Mind Blank.)

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-05, 08:51 AM
That doesn't matter. Look up superior invisibility. The only way to pinpoint or locate a character under its effect is with true seeing. No sound escapes, blindsight doesn't work, see invisible doesn't work. It says right out in the spell description "True Seeing only". Mind Blank means that True Seeing does nothing. You can not be targeted, your location can not be determined at all in any way. I suppose if you make your spell craft check after being hit with a spell you may be able to know that I am somewhere within whatever the spells range is.

Hmmm. As you can see from the quite ardent opposition it is a tricky thing. I would argue that YOU get protected by mind blank, but not the spells that are on you. So the true seeing sees you as you really are, but your mind could never be touched by any enchantment or divination (hold person, locate creature or whatever).


Come on, this one is core. You are never flatfooted when you have Foresight up. Again, look it up.

Ah, true- sorry!
Hnmmm...the wonders of non-core spells and feats introducing immediate action spells and celerity....but what about somebody teleporting next to you while in a time stop and casting AMF?
Ah, just noticed- the funny thing is that you then just wink out of existence, since it is only the astral projection that is hit.*EDIT SEE BOTTOM OF POST So directly attacking the projecting wizard is not a good idea (you may delay him for 10mins/level...) - only if you happen to have a very powerful greater dispel available, (I guess there are some non-epic ways outside core that go beyond +20 modification), the astrally projected superwizard could get stopped - if cast simultaneously from etheral and material plane.

THAT is actually quite a good use of the astral projection thing: the AMF knockout protection (for which btw you need a plane shift to get back astrally to the material plane, since you can project only to other planes than the material plane).
So the BBEG facing the wizard or the pcs vs the evil wizard using that have to look for the body....a challenge worthy for level 20 characters!


Actually Private Sanctum blocks any spell of the scrying subschool. And True Seeing can't see into a private sanctum either. Why would you think it could?

Well, in this case true seeing is not blocked by the private sanctum, since it is not explicitly excluded and it is not a scrying subschool spell.


Why in the world would I center it on the ground? You can't go underneath.

With etheralness I can.
And the "sphere" has a very bad side effect for your body, even when floating in mid-air (good idea btw the immovable rod), since it allows to know exactly where the body is once the sphere spell is recognised with the true seeing spell.


You can't appear inside of an occupied square and there are no unoccupied squares.

Well, if of tiny size I can. You use shapechange, so can I (actually, already polymorph does the trick).


Where do you get that stupid idea from? All buffs and items remain on my body. AP makes copies of them for the projection to use.

Actually, the buffs remain on your body (and do not move over with your astral projection - only what you "wear and carry", so you have to cast all the persistent 9th level all over again on your astral body that can get destroyed by simple greater dispel magic). Plus, the body you leave behind may well be interpreted no longer a legal target for the range "personal" or "you", since "you" are somewhere else. It may be argued that physical spells (like the shapechange) are still active on your body, but with your mind gone, the mind blank or foresight spells should no longer be able to protect the body.


Seeing as you need line of effect and line of sight to get rid of the prismatic sphere and that to have both of those you would have to be within 10 feet of my body then by the time you get through the Prismatic Sphere, much less the stone sphere, I will already be awake and gone.

No, you will not, as I outlined above. You return to your body the moment I materialise out of the etheral plane (wihtin 10ft of the body) and then you are hit by the AMF, unbuffed by foresight. So it's initiative time at best (however, you cannot tumble outside the AMF due to your own stone wall turned prison). Actually, the time stop/AMF trick could also be done to your body, and this time you don't just wink out. Additionally, even IF mind blank and foresight were still on your body, it would not help.


Um no. Its a targeted dispel magic, only the AP will be dispelled.

Um yes. If it's a targeted dispel (target: you) then all of the buffs you have on you will in turn get affected (look up the dispel magic). And since you automatically dispel your own spells, everything is gone (which may be less in case some buffs are no longer on your body, as I suggested above).


Um where did you get that impression?

See above.

Well, overall it MAY be that a wizard outside core can be quite powerful - in particular the ForgottenRealms-specific stuff like incantatrix prestige class (isn't pun-pun also based on some ForgottenRealms rules glitch?). However, all this stuff (and a lot of feats, prestige classes etc.) out there are also available to other classes, in particular by level 20.
So from what you posted I do not see the 100% safe win, even for a 20th level wizard outside core. Even with methods I listed that are 100% core. Available even to non-casters.

- Giacomo

*Note that there is a discussion thread started by CASTLEMIKE wondering what actually happens to the astral projection of a wizard (or anyone else, for that matter) hit by an AMF. You can find it here ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76670)
In a nutshell, one side argues that the AMF cuts/breaks/severs the cord and thus the body from the soul, killing the wizard.
The other side argues that the projection is simply suppressed similar to incorporal (or other magic-based, non-called) beings. Thus the wizard simply winks out, and is back again once the AMF is up again.

Solo
2008-04-05, 09:10 AM
So from what you posted I do not see the 100% safe win, even for a 20th level wizard outside core. Even with methods I listed that are 100% core. Available even to non-casters.

Build plz.

Morty
2008-04-05, 09:11 AM
Sir Giacomo vs. Emperor Tippy. This debate is going to melt the server.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-05, 09:12 AM
Sir Giacomo vs. Emperor Tippy. This debate is going to melt the server.

But it will at least be entertaining.

electronicssell
2008-04-05, 09:45 AM
i can't image how the images always have most of the cool things.but i admire them so much ,they can make many things out of nothing .if i had the ability ,i would own many things i don't have ,and i would be millionaire.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-05, 10:38 AM
Build plz.

Will do it some time soon. Just some more time until grass has grown over the last blasted/closed monk thread :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS/EDIT: I do not think my core monk build would have a reasonable chance vs Tippy's non-core persisted wizard (at least not at level 20, and way before that, neither). With the above mentioned time stop/AMF combo, maybe...hmmm will think on it.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-05, 11:27 AM
*Note that there is a discussion thread started by CASTLEMIKE wondering what actually happens to the astral projection of a wizard (or anyone else, for that matter) hit by an AMF. You can find it here ("http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76670)
In a nutshell, one side argues that the AMF cuts/breaks/severs the cord and thus the body from the soul, killing the wizard.
The other side argues that the projection is simply suppressed similar to incorporal (or other magic-based, non-called) beings. Thus the wizard simply winks out, and is back again once the AMF is up again.

Don't be disingenuous here Giamoco.

Those arguing for the AP being suppressed consists of everyone besides you and Castlemike.

Those arguing for the Wizard instantly dieing consists of a single person who has already admitted that he started from the assumption that AMF has to be able to do that, and then is only searching for someway to make it true even if it isn't.

Solo
2008-04-05, 11:54 AM
Will do it some time soon. Just some more time until grass has grown over the last blasted/closed monk thread :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS/EDIT: I do not think my core monk build would have a reasonable chance vs Tippy's non-core persisted wizard (at least not at level 20, and way before that, neither). With the above mentioned time stop/AMF combo, maybe...hmmm will think on it.

I am confident that Emperor Tippy can keep his wizard build o' doom core for your sake.

And it doesn't have to be a monk build, since you use mostly UMD anyways, so class won't matter too much.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-05, 01:49 PM
I am confident that Emperor Tippy can keep his wizard build o' doom core for your sake.


Yes, but then it will just consist of gating in the entire epic level handbook, and mashing it over Giacomo repeatedly while laughing from his flowing time Genesis (not quite core, but still on the SRD).

Kioran
2008-04-05, 02:17 PM
Yes, but then it will just consist of gating in the entire epic level handbook, and mashing it over Giacomo repeatedly while laughing from his flowing time Genesis (not quite core, but still on the SRD).

Or being a Red Wizard with Leadership who Gates in a 80 HD cosmic horror/advanced Solar/whathaveyou.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-05, 04:38 PM
Hmmm. As you can see from the quite ardent opposition it is a tricky thing. I would argue that YOU get protected by mind blank, but not the spells that are on you. So the true seeing sees you as you really are, but your mind could never be touched by any enchantment or divination (hold person, locate creature or whatever).
Yeah let's just drop whether or nto Mind Blank stops true seeing. The farthest I will go is that there is no clear answer and its DM discretion.


Ah, true- sorry!
Hnmmm...the wonders of non-core spells and feats introducing immediate action spells and celerity....but what about somebody teleporting next to you while in a time stop and casting AMF?
Ah, just noticed- the funny thing is that you then just wink out of existence, since it is only the astral projection that is hit.*EDIT SEE BOTTOM OF POST So directly attacking the projecting wizard is not a good idea (you may delay him for 10mins/level...) - only if you happen to have a very powerful greater dispel available, (I guess there are some non-epic ways outside core that go beyond +20 modification), the astrally projected superwizard could get stopped - if cast simultaneously from etheral and material plane.

THAT is actually quite a good use of the astral projection thing: the AMF knockout protection (for which btw you need a plane shift to get back astrally to the material plane, since you can project only to other planes than the material plane).
So the BBEG facing the wizard or the pcs vs the evil wizard using that have to look for the body....a challenge worthy for level 20 characters!
No, I wink out. And once your gone I wink back in. No plane shifting required.

As for Teleporting inside a Timestop, you get delayed 3 rounds from Greater Anticipate Teleport. And you can't cast AMF inside a Time Stop. Read how Time Stop interacts with AMF.


Well, in this case true seeing is not blocked by the private sanctum, since it is not explicitly excluded and it is not a scrying subschool spell.
Yes but an Private Sanctum is none of the things that True Seeing says it can see through
"The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things."


With etheralness I can.
And the "sphere" has a very bad side effect for your body, even when floating in mid-air (good idea btw the immovable rod), since it allows to know exactly where the body is once the sphere spell is recognised with the true seeing spell.
Etherealness doesn't allow you to ignore the Prismatic Sphere. And incidentally PS blocks all divinations as well.


Well, if of tiny size I can. You use shapechange, so can I (actually, already polymorph does the trick).
True. I should really fill the space with water, since my body is in suspended animation its not like it matters.


Actually, the buffs remain on your body (and do not move over with your astral projection - only what you "wear and carry", so you have to cast all the persistent 9th level all over again on your astral body that can get destroyed by simple greater dispel magic). Plus, the body you leave behind may well be interpreted no longer a legal target for the range "personal" or "you", since "you" are somewhere else. It may be argued that physical spells (like the shapechange) are still active on your body, but with your mind gone, the mind blank or foresight spells should no longer be able to protect the body.
You are in both places at the same time. As for spells staying or moving over, I don't really care. Mind Blank can be gotten from an item and th rest of it can be done with Craft Contingent Spell.


No, you will not, as I outlined above. You return to your body the moment I materialise out of the etheral plane (wihtin 10ft of the body) and then you are hit by the AMF, unbuffed by foresight. So it's initiative time at best (however, you cannot tumble outside the AMF due to your own stone wall turned prison). Actually, the time stop/AMF trick could also be done to your body, and this time you don't just wink out. Additionally, even IF mind blank and foresight were still on your body, it would not help.
AMF needs line of effect. You can't get LoE without surviving my Prismatic Sphere and Sphere shaped Wall of Stone. You also can't cast AMF while time stopped. And you can't approach my body under the effects of TS because my contingency doesn't care about that and goes off, more precisely my 2 contingencies go off. The other one being a Greater Teleport set to go off in the event that the first one goes off, taking my to a location where I have a stash/base.


Um yes. If it's a targeted dispel (target: you) then all of the buffs you have on you will in turn get affected (look up the dispel magic). And since you automatically dispel your own spells, everything is gone (which may be less in case some buffs are no longer on your body, as I suggested above).



One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.
It only gets rid of the AP.


@everyone

Nah, Gate Rape is a last resort. This doesn't call for that power level. You could do it just core just fine.

But if Giacomo wants to test out his stuff in practice, I'm fine with that but I won't be remaining core. I don't have time to make up a whole new core wizard.

I would use one of these 2 (with suitable alterations as they are a matched pair).
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=7809
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890

Kurald Galain
2008-04-05, 05:48 PM
Sir Giacomo vs. Emperor Tippy. This debate is going to melt the server.

But it's going to be pretty pointless because one of the two has so far not been able to substantiate his claims with an actual build.

Solo
2008-04-05, 08:00 PM
But it's going to be pretty pointless because one of the two has so far not been able to substantiate his claims with an actual build.

SG is working on it.

He has been for the past week, in fact.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-06, 06:04 AM
Hmmm, this promises to become an interesting discussion...


Yeah let's just drop whether or nto Mind Blank stops true seeing. The farthest I will go is that there is no clear answer and its DM discretion.

OK.


No, I wink out. And once your gone I wink back in. No plane shifting required.

The plane shifting is there to let you return to the material plane in projected form. But that is just my reading of the spell. Let's assume you don't need it. And yes, AMF means you wink out.


As for Teleporting inside a Timestop, you get delayed 3 rounds from Greater Anticipate Teleport.

Well, anticpate, greater or not, only has a certain radius of effect. So I could simply teleport in within 200ft or so, take 4x move up to you and THEN cast the AMF. And with a rod of greater maximise spell, even as a non-caster I'd have enough time..


And you can't cast AMF inside a Time Stop. Read how Time Stop interacts with AMF.

Hmm. The only thing is that I could not enter an area protected by an AMF, but I would not enter it, I would already be inside. Probably the moment I cast AMF in the time stop, the time stop ends, that would be logical.
Either way, AMF will come into effect the moment time stop ends. Your wizard is not flat-footed* and can thus do an immediate action, regardless of initiative roll - but in that action he could not cast anything (AMF is up). Wall of force or prismatic sphere he COULD cast, but those cannot be immediated...


Yes but an Private Sanctum is none of the things that True Seeing says it can see through
"The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things."

But the private sanctum says "dark, foggy mass" which I would say qualifies as magical darkness. And that only darkvision does not penetrate it.


Etherealness doesn't allow you to ignore the Prismatic Sphere. And incidentally PS blocks all divinations as well.

Well, if the sphere is not on the ground, but a full sphere in mid-air, it's an 11,000 gp rod of cancellation then, I guess? But that would leave the stonewall...well, the easiest solution to the problem (both vs body and vs projection) is really the time stop, teleport and AMF.


True. I should really fill the space with water, since my body is in suspended animation its not like it matters.

Water does not block teleporting in (or materialising out of other planes), since otherwise those spells would not work at all (because the space is always occupied by air, and thus all teleport etc. spells would only work in vacuum). Only solid matter blocks.


You are in both places at the same time. As for spells staying or moving over, I don't really care. Mind Blank can be gotten from an item and th rest of it can be done with Craft Contingent Spell.

Well, the "in both places at the same time" is a bit of interpretation. I'd say it's a DM's call. For instance, when casting a spell on yourself while adventuring in the Abyss, would your body also get affected? Conversely, if you get hit by some targeted spell effect in the Abyss, would your body also get hit? It can be only the one or the other.


AMF needs line of effect. You can't get LoE without surviving my Prismatic Sphere and Sphere shaped Wall of Stone. You also can't cast AMF while time stopped. And you can't approach my body under the effects of TS because my contingency doesn't care about that and goes off, more precisely my 2 contingencies go off. The other one being a Greater Teleport set to go off in the event that the first one goes off, taking my to a location where I have a stash/base.

So, it's two contingencies now? I take that a as a compliment...:smallbiggrin: anyhow, the contingencies do not get off since they are hit by the AMF the moment time stop ends.


It only gets rid of the AP.

SRD: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.

The spells are on you (as a creature). You do not target a single spell (say, in an area, like a wall of fire). So it gets rid of everyting.


@everyone

Nah, Gate Rape is a last resort. This doesn't call for that power level. You could do it just core just fine.

But if Giacomo wants to test out his stuff in practice, I'm fine with that but I won't be remaining core. I don't have time to make up a whole new core wizard.

I would use one of these 2 (with suitable alterations as they are a matched pair).
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=7809
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890

Hmmm...will think on it. I'm a bit wary about 17-20th level range, in particular non-core, to illustrate anything relating to balance. But it could be fun.

- Giacomo

*EDIT: just noticed that your foresight would also be suppressed, so your wizard WOULD be flat-footed
Hmmm...could this mean that actually, as soon as time stop is available (by level 17), the caster classes fall behind because inside an AMF they are much, much weaker than the non-caster classes? That would be quite amusing. But I guess it would be balanced out since not all non-casters would think about taking UMD and a scroll of time stop and AMF just to make that point...:smallbiggrin:

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-06, 06:13 AM
Ugh, don't you guys think this thread has gone on long enough? :smalleek:

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-06, 06:14 AM
Yes. My arguments just ended it.:smallbiggrin: (OK, wishful thinking...)

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-06, 06:30 AM
I would use one of these 2 (with suitable alterations as they are a matched pair).
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=7809
http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=5890

Having had a first glance at those builds I must say I'm awed. I don't even know half of what Emperor Tippy lists there as spells or abilities, and the other half looks incredibly impressive. While it may be that the time stop/teleport/AMF combo could defeat those super mages, it's highly unlikely that a core non-caster would be in the same league at level 18 in terms of what they can do in the respective campaigns, without incredible amounts of maxing.

I bow in presence of a master...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

Worira
2008-04-06, 09:15 AM
SRD: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.

The spells are on you (as a creature). You do not target a single spell (say, in an area, like a wall of fire). So it gets rid of everyting.



Yeah, uh, the parts you didn't highlight are still right there. Let's play the re-highlighting game!

SRD: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.

You know perfectly well what the spell says, Giacomo.

Sir Giacomo
2008-04-06, 11:42 AM
Yeah, uh, the parts you didn't highlight are still right there. Let's play the re-highlighting game!

SRD: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.

You know perfectly well what the spell says, Giacomo.

Hmmm - actually from the wording of the spell, I don't. It's not that clear. So far I only saw the spell in game play as being used on opponents, debuffing them (meaning that ALL spells have a chance of being affected). Not once was there a situation that a caster wanted to dispel one particular spell on his body. So it's a situation which apparently is not the norm set by the spell.

Hmmm. Say, one of your party members has been hit by a hold monster spell - but also buffed before by his fellow caster pcs. Now, when you wish to help him, can you target the hold monster spell on him, leaving the other (benefitting) spells intact? I would argue from my experience it's not possible, but I would also accept other interpretations.

- Giacomo

Frosty
2008-04-06, 12:12 PM
I read it like this. When dispelling a target, you do not have the choice to auto-failing the dispel check. You can only choose to auto-succeed, and that's only if you cast the spell yourself.

So, if you cast Dispel Magic on yourself, there is a 50% chance you'd dispel your own buffs as well.

Solo
2008-04-06, 12:16 PM
SG, if you target an object/creature with spells on them, you may dispel either one or all at your choice, but the permanent Prismatic Sphere is not cast on a person/object, so you have to handle it separately.

I think.

Frosty
2008-04-06, 01:28 PM
Ok so you can choose to dipel one OR all, but you can't say, I want to get rid of spelle ffects 1,2, and 5 and leave the rest alone.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-06, 02:55 PM
Ok so you can choose to dipel one OR all, but you can't say, I want to get rid of spelle ffects 1,2, and 5 and leave the rest alone.

Correct. Will respond to other points later.

Aquillion
2008-04-06, 06:32 PM
It's really quite straightforward:
Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.You can target a dispel magic against one spell specifically. End of argument.

Rutee
2008-04-06, 07:55 PM
You know.. I'm pretty sure Giacomo's correct about being able to voluntarily fail a caster check to dispel. I'm pretty sure you can voluntarily fail any roll.

tyckspoon
2008-04-06, 09:15 PM
You know.. I'm pretty sure Giacomo's correct about being able to voluntarily fail a caster check to dispel. I'm pretty sure you can voluntarily fail any roll.

I think this is one of those common-sense rules that might not actually exist.. does anybody know where it is, if it does exist? I know you can forgo certain roles, such as when you decide not to save against a (harmless) spell, but I don't recall any rules other than Taking 10/20 for getting an automatic result on a roll that you have chosen to take (such as a dispel level check triggered by casting Dispel Magic.. you can't very well say you decided not to dispel something after casting that spell at it.)

Funkyodor
2008-04-07, 02:05 AM
Um, if you can't Etherealness through a Prismatic Sphere because it blocks spells, then how can you AP out of it?

Nebo_
2008-04-07, 02:13 AM
It's really quite straightforward:You can target a dispel magic against one spell specifically. End of argument.

I think that's referring to spells with ongoing effects, like Solid Fog. Does anyone have a reference for that?

Rutee
2008-04-07, 02:21 AM
I think this is one of those common-sense rules that might not actually exist.. does anybody know where it is, if it does exist? I know you can forgo certain roles, such as when you decide not to save against a (harmless) spell, but I don't recall any rules other than Taking 10/20 for getting an automatic result on a roll that you have chosen to take (such as a dispel level check triggered by casting Dispel Magic.. you can't very well say you decided not to dispel something after casting that spell at it.)

Well, IIRC you can target all the spells on a single person; I can't imagine why you would deliberately fail to dispel aside from dramatic effect, of course, but..

In any case, you may be right about "Can fail at will" being common sense onry.

akumadaimyo
2008-04-07, 02:32 AM
Actually one of my DMs was saying mages are UNDERPOWERED compared to the monsters you face but I think this guy is only thinking of himself and what he can do vs how powerful monsters are.

akumadaimyo
2008-04-07, 02:38 AM
First off, a proper wizard should never just be dealing damage. Other people can deal damage. It's a waste of a spell slot when a martial-type can do the exact same thing in a round without expending resources.

{Scrubbed}