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Talya
2008-03-09, 12:31 PM
How much do you think it would improve balance if, instead of empty +ECL adjustments, you gave level adjusted classes actual hit dice in the subtype of their species. For instance, goliaths would get a level of monstrous humanoid. Aasimar and tiefling would get a level of outsider. That way it would still cut into any spellcasting and class features, but not leave them permanently lower character level than other players.

Edit: Then for added ease of design you could grant the levels over time, like Sean K. Reynolds "Savage Progressions" rules on the WotC site.

Zincorium
2008-03-09, 12:55 PM
The problem you run into is that not all racial hit dice are created equal. Monstrous humanoid, outsider, and dragon hit dice are all fairly decent, for melee classes you lose little. At the same time, those races often have stat mods that make them a good melee combatant.

Humanoid is a pretty good balancing hit die, same with giant and aberration, because all classes are equally held back by those hit dice.

When looking at balance, you have to compare it to a character of the same level and general type to see what needs to be fixed. In the case of the theoretical monstrous humanoid goliath, compare it to a first level fighter. It loses a feat and a hit dice size, but the racial bonuses of goliath way offset those. There's just no way to reconcile the difference.

Half dragon would just be absurd.

I think you've got a solid theory behind this, but the races you're using it with kind of screw up any balance you're working towards.

Talya
2008-03-09, 01:06 PM
Could give them all levels in monk...

Oh wait, forget it. My goal was to improve them, this is counterproductive.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-09, 02:53 PM
That would be awful. By tacking on an extra level you doom them to never having 20 class levels before epic.

Just let them buy off the LA.

Talya
2008-03-09, 04:28 PM
That would be awful. By tacking on an extra level you doom them to never having 20 class levels before epic.

Just let them buy off the LA.

With the subtype levels in question having 3 high saves, 1/1 BAB, and 8 skills/level, is it really that bad to not have 20 levels in a class pre-epic? it's not like it would take them any longer to get 20 class levels than it does normally anyway. (remember, buyoff is an optional rule.)

avr
2008-03-09, 04:37 PM
Another idea I saw was to use an attribute point buy system and give races with LA's noticeably less points. I think it was in Rycanada's E6 rules.

Talya
2008-03-09, 06:03 PM
Another idea I saw was to use an attribute point buy system and give races with LA's noticeably less points. I think it was in Rycanada's E6 rules.

That kinda defeats the purpose of them. Who wants to play an ogre only marginally stronger than a human?

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-10, 02:48 AM
I normally just nerf races with LA in order to get rid of extra HDs. Here's a few which I've thought up so far:

Catfolk (partially insprired by some 3rd Edition Rakasta updates):
+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Listen and Move Silently, 40 ft. movement, Low-Light
vision.

Lizardfolk: +2 Con, -2 Int, +2 NA, +2 to Jump, Balance and Swim checks, hold breath for 4x Con.

Gnoll: +2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Cha, Darkvision 60', +1 NA, 1d6 bite attack.

I don't know if those are perfectly balanced, and I've only been doing this with LA 1 races, but the same principal could be used with creatures with higher LAs.

Tengu
2008-03-10, 03:02 AM
I think Talya's idea is very good. In case of powerful racial levels you could just further increase the number of hit dice, or swap them for X levels in Outsider/Dragon/etc and the rest in Humanoid.

It could also let such characters play even at lower levels - you just have to take the assorted X levels in racial hit die before you can gain class levels.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-10, 03:35 AM
Why not just use buy off? I mean, yeah, it's an optional rule, but it seems to be a good one to me.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-10, 04:13 AM
How does buy-off work exactly? I've never heard of that rule (I know some races have Racial Class leves which are either really rubbish (eg: Gnolls) or limiting unless you want a particular class (eg: Monotaurs)).

Tengu
2008-03-10, 04:16 AM
SRD PUNCH!!
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-10, 04:32 AM
Thanks. Do you think my idea is more practical, though? (That sounds a bit complicated, and it would put the character behind a bit).

Tengu
2008-03-10, 04:38 AM
I think your idea works for some groups, and doesn't for others (for example when the player wants to play a high-la race because that lets him be superhumanly strong/smart).

Reinboom
2008-03-10, 04:42 AM
Catfolk (partially insprired by some 3rd Edition Raksasha updates):
+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Listen and Move Silently, 40 ft. movement, Low-Light
vision.

Catfolk with a hit to Wisdom?
This doesn't make much sense to me.


Handing them class levels of something 'generic' works out nicely.
The SRD has the generic classes from UA to work with. This allows options and doesn't increase power by much.

Tengu
2008-03-10, 04:44 AM
Catfolk with a hit to Wisdom?
This doesn't make much sense to me.


"Wise" is not exactly the word that comes to mind when you think of a catgirl/guy, is it?

Reinboom
2008-03-10, 04:53 AM
"Wise" is not exactly the word that comes to mind when you think of a catgirl/guy, is it?
Wise is also not the thing that I attribute to D&D's wisdom, either.
Both perceptive and strong willed I attribute to cats, yes.

shadow_archmagi
2008-03-10, 04:55 AM
Wait... this wasn't the assumed way it was supposed to work? Huh. I had no idea.

The javascript 3.5 character generator I always use ALWAYS does this. I say I want a level six centuar, it says "Okay, but your first four levels are in humanoid. Pick your two class levels."

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-10, 04:57 AM
I was mainly using that because some 3rd Editions Rakastas had that penalty (I didn;t want +2 Dex, -2 Con like other Rakasta variants due to wanting them to be different from Elves). I'll find a link concerning Rakastas, which are humanoid cats.

EDIT: http://search.freefind.com/servlet/freefind?id=574922&pageid=r&query=rakasta&mode=Find+pages+matching+ALL+words .

(^) You're using Pathguy, right?

Tengu
2008-03-10, 05:04 AM
Wise is also not the thing that I attribute to D&D's wisdom, either.
Both perceptive and strong willed I attribute to cats, yes.

I see catfolk as either possessing short attention span, or being proud to the point of near-sightedness. Both of these account for negative wisdom.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-10, 05:12 AM
That is a good point. Do you have any ideas for balancing out high LA creatures without making them much weaker? Racial Class levels are the only idea I can think of excluding buy-off.

Kioran
2008-03-10, 05:21 AM
How much do you think it would improve balance if, instead of empty +ECL adjustments, you gave level adjusted classes actual hit dice in the subtype of their species. For instance, goliaths would get a level of monstrous humanoid. Aasimar and tiefling would get a level of outsider. That way it would still cut into any spellcasting and class features, but not leave them permanently lower character level than other players.

Edit: Then for added ease of design you could grant the levels over time, like Sean K. Reynolds "Savage Progressions" rules on the WotC site.

Yes, the idea has come to mind to. However, there is, as several people already have noted, a difference between the racial HD. To me, they come in Tiers:

Alpha: Outsider and Dragon, the kings of HD
Beta: Magical Beast and Monstrous Humanoid, these are still good
Gamma: Animal, Elemental and Fey, these are slightly above average and have some redeeming qualities
Delta: Aberration, Giant, Humanoid, Plant And Vermin, below average HD, not terribly good
Minus: Construct, Ooze, Undead - these HD suck. Hard.

Now some of those subtypes have nice Traits (Constructs, Plants, Elementals or such). But these are not part of the HD. They figure into the LA, since they won´t improve your 14th racial HD, just be nice with whatever you have.
I don´t have hard and fast rules, but I´d say 3 Delta or Gamma HD would be worth 2 points of LA, 5 HD of Beta are worth 3 LA, and 2 HD of Alpha are worth 1 LA - meaning more LA the suckier the HD is.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-10, 06:10 AM
To me, having a racial hit die puts me further behind, because if it's not a PC level, it's underpowered, and I can never ever ever get rid of it (Well... mostly). I like the buyoff rule, get to level 3, spend some exp, LA is gone, and you'll quickly catch up to your buddies because you'll be making more exp per encounter for a little bit.

Chronos
2008-03-10, 04:37 PM
To me, having a racial hit die puts me further behind, because if it's not a PC level, it's underpowered, and I can never ever ever get rid of it (Well... mostly).I dunno... There are a lot of builds where I would gladly take Outsider HD, if they were available as a class. Attack like a fighter, skills like a rogue, saves like a monk, and a decent hit die doesn't sound like a bad deal, to me. Sure, it'd be lousy for a spellcaster, but if you're playing a warrior or skillmonkey, you're not really losing anything.

The same is true of dragon, but with slightly less skills and a big hit die.

Eldmor
2008-03-10, 04:59 PM
I actually like the idea of "Monster Classes" where you take levels in the monster and become more like it. This could also factor in people's ancestors jumping fences on creature types and such. I really liked the ones displayed in Libris Mortis for undead adventurers.

Scintillatus
2008-03-10, 05:07 PM
I'm eager to see what 4e does with racial bonuses. The addition of a flavour "special powah" is nice, but I hope they measure out ability bonuses too.

Mojo_Rat
2008-03-10, 05:18 PM
part of the problem also with adding Hd and saves for the blank levels is that many Monster templates with LA also have high con mods. So the higher con Mixed witht he lower effecive HD keeps the character in check with the rest of the party members.

As an example in a recent game of ourse a Half-fiend had a 22 con for +6 hps on the Die. even at 4 less Hd than the other members of the party he was still second in HPs (after a fighter).. If you gave him 4 outsider Hd for those levels thats +24 hp and 4d8 hp and +4 base attack and whatever saves. Which would have put the Half fiend with all D6 hps for his other class levels as our highest hp party member.


While La are not perfect there is a reason for them.

Jacob Orlove
2008-03-10, 06:05 PM
You should check out Playing Unusual Races (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=33296#33296), by Frank Trollman and K. The formatting is messed up at the moment, but it covers both balanced starting races, and this exact HD-for-LA substitution. Spoilered below for your convenience:

Powerful Races:<br><br>Level adjustments don't work at all. Characters end up with skill rank maximums that prevent them from taking prestige classes appropriate to their level and they have hit dice that are low enough that they end up getting caught by spells like cloudkill that are designed to keep the henchmen out of a climactic battle, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, while the concept is busted, the implementation is even worse. Characters end up getting LAs assigned to them based on the sum total of their abilities (disregarding hit dice) and then having them added on to the hit dice (disregarding abilities). Monstrous creatures end up paying for rather minor abilities more than once and the end result is that characters who really aren't good at anything end up being counted as being higher level than "normal" characters who can outperform them in every way. That has to stop. In general, a monster that is built like a PC is about 1 CR better than one right out of the Monster Manual. CR really is supposed to equal Level, so we're going to be running with the races which are playable under that rubric:<br><br>Powerful Monsters As PCs, or “Beholder Mages That Don’t Make Us Cry.”<br>Monsters need to be able to be easy blends of character levels and monster stats. We know that its completely awesome to fight evil mastermind wizards that might just be beholders or giants or some other big monster, and its equally neat to play a cursed vampire warriors who’s trying to redeem his soul. Designers up to this point have attempted to stop players from doing both by making these options unplayable or “the suck”, so its time to right this wrong. <br>To start, let us be perfectly honest about two things: We want to play monsters. <br> We know that the current ECL (Effective Character Level), LA (Level Adjustment), monster PrCs, and monster progression systems don’t work… like, at all. <br><br>Ok, now that we’ve cleared that up, we can begin. <br> <br>Monsters tend to be build along four kinds of design philosophies. Characters: This is the “as a character” philosophy, which makes monsters at a certain CR where they are perfectly suited to fight parties of characters at that level, but might overpower a weaker party or single character or be a total pushover to more powerful individuals or parties. Giants, gnolls, yuanti, goblinoids and other monsters who are expect to use PC-level tactics and equipment fall into this category.<br><br> Glass Jaws and Sucker Punches AKA Suckers: These monsters, which we’ll just call “Suckers” for their ability to suck and sucker punch. Usually they have an extremely powerful attack that can sucker punch a party, but they have some glaring weakness that means that they will go down extremely quickly if you exploit this weakness. Sprites, with their fabulously low HPs and powerful magic are a fine example of this monster. “Closet trolls” like trolls and Pouncing dire animals fall into this category because they are extremely dangerous in enclosed spaces (better than any three fighting characters of their CR), but they die easily if you can attack them at range and stay at a distance. <br><br> Puzzle Monsters: These monsters are in fact more puzzle than monster. They usually are unbeatable unless you know their one weakness, meaning that players who don’t know the right Monster Manual by heart usually die to these things. Classic examples from old editions of DnD like the Windwalkers would only die to a single spell from the spell list which you may or may not know or have on hand, but 3.x has from eased away from this level of arbitrariness. Now we have monsters like Swarms and incorporeal monsters who may be immune to all your normal weapon attacks (a killer for a party without a damage-capable spellcaster) and several kind of plants or oozes that seem to have random and crazy defenses when you attack them (like splitting into more monsters). <br><br> Awesome Because Its Awesome AKA Player Killers (PKs): Some Monsters are just built to make players cry. Dragons are the classic example, as they are traditionally CRed about two to four lower than they should be, and some other monsters have also been unofficially given the [awesome] subtype, meaning that players will always remember these monsters for being Party Killers. Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category. <br><br>Can you see the problem with making these creatures into playable and balanced characters? Character monsters and PKs can be easily modified into playable characters by modifying raw stats, but Suckers and Puzzle Monsters need massive rewrites before they can be playable characters. <br><br>Converting Monsters Into Characters:<br>Method 1: The Easy Way<br>Assume that a monster is a character of its CR+1(modified if it i a monster with the [Awesome] tag), and that its stat modifiers are derived from the assumption that the base monster was built using the Elite Array (highest monster stat – highest elite stat, then repeat for next lowest, etc). For level-dependant effects like skill point maxes, feat prereqs, etc, use the monster’s CR+1. Round ability stat mods down to nearest multiple of 2(negative mods up to multiple of 2), and CRs down to nearest whole number.<br><br>The nice part of this method is that it is easy, fast, and you can get to playing a monster immediately without as lot of DM intervention or paperwork. The downside is that you might get an underpowered or overpowered monster character if you are not careful (like you forgot that Dragons are actually CRed two less than they should be, or that Sprites are unplayable).<br><br>Here’s two examples:<br> Minotaur. Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC. Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD.<br>Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at.<br><br> Succubus: CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex.<br>It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay. The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes.<br><br>Method 2:<br>This method is the same as Method 1, but it goes a bit further by converting HD to actually appropriate HD by giving the monster the HD that equals its CR and BAB. This corrects problems just as excess HD from giants and undead.<br><br>Basically, look that the monster’s HD and BAB. What kind of HD would it need to keep about the same BAB and HPs, but would give it the appropriate number of HD to fit its CR/level (which also fixes Saves to reasonably levels). Assign it that HD, and move on with your life.<br><br>Here’s an example:<br>Fire Giant. Ok, the Fire Giant is a CR 11 as a PC, and notice that it has a BAB of 11, Great! Normally, it has 15 HD which leads to some craziness if he ever gets a Con boost and it has saves that are a little too big, so lets convert it. Lets give it 11 Barbarian HD(d12s, +1 BAB, good Fort save). We see that he keeps his BAB of 11, his HPs change from 142 to 133, and its base saves are Fort +7, Will/Ref +3 like an actual 11th level character instead of Fort +9, Will/Ref +5.<br><br>Method 3:<br>This Method is being saved for our upcoming Tome of Tiamat. Lets just say that is the version of monster progression classes that you actually wanted to be written.<br><br>Here are some relatively simple character conversions:<br>Gnoll (Minimum Level 2)<br>Lazy Hyena men filled with awesome? Where do I sign!? <br> Medium Size<br> 30' movement<br> Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype)<br> Darkvision 60'<br> +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma<br> Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar.<br> +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes.<br> Scent.<br> +1 Natural Armor.<br> Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid<br> Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common<br> Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg.<br> 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB)<br><br><br>Bugbear (Minimum Level 3)<br><br> Medium Size<br> 30' movement<br> Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype)<br> Darkvision 60'<br> +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma<br> Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons.<br> +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes.<br> +3 Natural Armor.<br> +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks.<br> Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja<br> Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common<br> Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon.<br> 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB)<br><br><br>Ogre (Minimum Level 4)<br>Giants, even the lowly Ogre, are very specialized creatures. They [i]dominate melee at their level, and really suck at everything else. As monsters, that makes them dangerous. While their glass jaws often leave them in situations that they cannot survive or even put up a decent showing, their laser-like focus can allow them to brutalize characters higher level than themselves if the lighting is just right. As characters, though, this makes them somewhat underwhelming. The ability to win super hard in one encounter only to die horribly in the next is worth less than nothing in a campaign game. An Ogre is a vulnerable and weak character for his level, but he does shine brightly if he can sucker opponents into melee. As such, Ogres really only do well in large, highly varied parties. As long as the remaining characters have potential bases covered extremely well, the fact that a single Ogre can't always pull his weight won't matter as much. For this reason, an Ogre often makes a better cohort than he does a primary character. Large Size<br> 40' movement<br> Giant Type (Cold subtype)<br> Low-light vision and Darkvision (60')<br> +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.<br> +5 Natural Armor<br> Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Simple Weapons.<br> Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger<br> Automatic Languages: Giant, Common<br> Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarvish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Terran.<br> 4 Starting Hit Dice (4d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 7 skill points; +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; +4 BAB)<br><br><br>Frost Giant (Minimum Level 10)<br><br>Right out of the box, the Frost Giant is a bad dude capable of rescuing the head of state from ninjas. Based largely on Norse mythology, these bad boys are big and bad. In fact, at 15 feet tall, they are about as big as you can get and still count as a large creature. That makes it pretty hard for them to find mounts, or fit into small buildings, and do all kinds of other crap that adventurers want to do. But it's not impossible. A Frost Giant isn't a Cloud Giant, he doesn't need people to make new doors to accommodate him, he just needs special doors to get through without it being really inconvenient.<br><br>A frost giant gets by in human society mostly because most people wouldn't dare mess with him. And that makes for a decent enough 10th level character.<br><br> Large Size<br> 40' movement<br> Giant Type (Cold subtype)<br> Low-light vision<br> +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom<br> +9 Natural Armor<br> Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons.<br> Rock Throwing and Catching (a Frost Giant's rocks have a range increment of 120 feet).<br> Favored Classes: Fighter and Barbarian<br> Cold Immunity and Fire Vulnerability<br> Automatic Languages: Giant, Common<br> Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarvish, Gnoll, Orc.<br> 10 Starting Hit Dice (10d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 13 skill points; +7 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will; +10 BAB)<br>