Ranged Tactician [PrC]

[Lord Iames Osari]

I was been thinking lately about a character that I have in a PbP here, and his fighting methods (ranged) currently don't mesh well with those of the rest of the team (melee). I plan on having him take Precise Shot as quickly as possible to help offset this, but I think there's some cool tactics we could pull off from a fluff perspective that aren't supported by the rules.

As an example, it would be neat if my character could lay down some fire in order to keep an enemy from dodging an ally's attack. But the aid another rules don't support the use of ranged weapons.

So I decided to homebrew a 5-level PrC to make some of that stuff possible.
[hr]Current version here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049337&postcount=28).Ranged Tactician
Ranged tacticians are those who have learned how to apply their abilities in ranged combat to assist their allies and hinder their enemies.
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks.
Feats: Precise Shot.

Class Skills
The ranged tactician's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int Mod.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2|Long-distance aid
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Ranged feint, sneak attack +1d6
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3|Pin down
4th|+4|+1|+4|+4|Ranged flanking, sneak attack +2d6
5th|+5|+1|+4|+4|Improved ranged flanking[/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ranged tacticians gain no proficiency in any weapons or armor.
Long-Distance Aid (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, a ranged tactician can both perform and benefit from aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) actions in combat even if none of the people involved are in melee combat.
Ranged Feint (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a ranged tactician can take a move action to perform a feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) at range, expending one unit of ammunition (if applicable) in the process. If he is successful, the target is considered to be flat-footed against the ranged tactician's next ranged attack. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Sneak Attack (Ex): As the rogue ability of the same name.
Pin Down (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, if an opponent within one range increment of the ranged tactician attempts to move (other than a five-foot step), the ranged tactician may attempt to stop him in his tracks with a well-aimed shot. The ranged tactician must make an attack roll against his opponent. If he hits his opponent, the opponent must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + the ranged tactician's damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round. Using this ability counts as one of the ranged tactician's attacks of opportunity for the round.
Ranged Flanking (Ex): When a ranged tactician is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence.

At 5th level, this ability improves. A ranged tactician now threatens (for the purposes of flanking only) from as far away as a single range increment of his ranged weapon, or from 30 feet away, whichever is larger. He still must have line of effect, and his foe must still be aware of his presence.What do you guys think?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The two dice of sneak attack damage would probably not be out of place.

Also, as another option, here's something from a class I posted a while back:

Covering Fire: Whenever an opponent within your first range increment attempts an attack of opportunity against an ally, you may sacrifice an attack of opportunity to make a ranged attack against that foe as a free action. If you hit, you deal normal ranged damage and your opponent cannot make attacks of opportunity for the rest of the round.

Just an idea to throw out there.

[Sornas]

Very nice ^^

The only things I can think of are:

1. I don't see a hitdie. I assume d6?

2. I'm not sure if I think Pin Down should have a save or not. I suppose, with not much in the way of damage here, it should stay as is, but if you add the sneak attack, then it may be something to consider. ^_^

[DracoDei]

"Can't Move" seems too strong for "Pin Down"... try "automatically hit by two attacks that count as critical threats. Roll separately to confirm criticals for each." That seems more in keeping with the way supressing fire works IRL and doesn't let the class do to much MORE from long range than a melee character could do at melee distances.

[Felixaar]

Considering most of his abilities are based around it having to be quite obvious to his opponents that he is there (feints and aid are kinda hard when you're in hide), I don't think sneak attack would really be apporpriate. I like pin down though.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I forgot the Hit Die. I'm gonna say a d8. *goes to edit that in*

Hmmm. Why don't I modify Pin Down to be more like the Stand Still (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Stand_Still,XPH) feat?

Pin Down (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, if an opponent within one range increment of the ranged tactician attempts to move (other than a five-foot step), the ranged tactician may attempt to stop him in his tracks with a well-aimed shot. The ranged tactician must make an attack roll against his opponent. If he hits his opponent, the opponent must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + the ranged tactician's damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round. Using this ability counts as one of the ranged tactician's attacks of opportunity for the round.

[DracoDei]

Yeah, but now you don't have to pick a target and it still effects a huge radius... probably want to keep it down to 1 target at 3rd level, then 2 at 5th... or something like that.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yeah, but now you don't have to pick a target and it still effects a huge radius... probably want to keep it down to 1 target at 3rd level, then 2 at 5th... or something like that.
It can still only affect one target at a time unless the character takes the Combat Reflexes feat, and it requires both an attack roll and a saving throw.

[DracoDei]

I just meant that you don't have to decide ahead of time, but yeah, you have a point.

[Animefunkmaster]

the BAB and Ranged flanking is inbalancing with the sneak attack dice.

Bring down the BAB/hd or the Sneak Attack Dice.

Instead of feinting give him ranged disarm, ranged trip. OR: Ranged AoO. Must select a target, if that target provokes and AoO while in your threatened range (determined by the threaten area of ranged flank) you may make a single attack action as an immediate action. 1/turn

[Lord Iames Osari]

the BAB and Ranged flanking is inbalancing with the sneak attack dice.

Bring down the BAB/hd or the Sneak Attack Dice.

Instead of feinting give him ranged disarm, ranged trip. OR: Ranged AoO. Must select a target, if that target provokes and AoO while in your threatened range (determined by the threaten area of ranged flank) you may make a single attack action as an immediate action. 1/turnIt's only 2 dice of sneak attack, though.

Why not ranged feinting? According to the current rules, feinting only applies to melee attacks, Ranged Disarm (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ranged_Disarm,CW) is already a feat, and I'm not sure how you'd be able to trip someone at range, since tripping involves sweeping someone's feet out from under them.

[Felixaar]

Ranged feignting is kinda hard to picture.

Also, tripping you could shoot them in the foot (dance, rummy!)

[DracoDei]

Just to be a knee-jerk Brain type I am going to say that IN THEORY:

Pin their foot-wear to the ground with an arrow (equivalent to someone tripping over their own shoe-lace).
Fire it so it sticks in the ground just in front of them and they trip over the shaft.
Make the jerk their foot back in fear of the arrow at JUST the wrong point in their stride.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Hm. Okay, I can see that.

Ranged feinting I imagine as working something like this:

You fire a shot aimed in your opponent's general direction. He moves to avoid it and ends up moving into the path of your follow-up shot.

[Spiryt]

Pin down is pretty interesting, but I think that in that form it's a bit weird that enemy just stops beacuse of one arrow. Modern soldiers use bursts to do it, after all.

I think that after failing a save he should have option to just take damage and don't stop. Of course damage would be much increased (x2 ?) to make him pay for his determination.


Anyway, nice class.

[Ninjalitude]

Pin down should have a size requirement or something. Because I can't exactly picture how a halfling ranged tactician with a small shortbow could stop an Ettin in its tracks with a pointy stick. excuse my sarcasm

[Lord Iames Osari]

Pin down is pretty interesting, but I think that in that form it's a bit weird that enemy just stops beacuse of one arrow. Modern soldiers use bursts to do it, after all.

I think that after failing a save he should have option to just take damage and don't stop. Of course damage would be much increased (x2 ?) to make him pay for his determination.


Anyway, nice class.

Originally, it required you to expend five units of ammunition. Should I put that back in?

[Stycotl]

Originally, it required you to expend five units of ammunition. Should I put that back in?

no, don't do that. maybe model it after a style feat or something. if said creature is hit by 2+ arrows in one round, it needs to make a reflex save in order to continue any movement that round.

or if you hit by 5+ or something (simulating some kind of precision in the shot, knowing where to put the arrow, etc), then it has to save.

i realize that the first option gets rid of the niftiness of the AoO for pin down. but i'm ok with that as i see a ranged AoO versus anyone that moves within 100+ feet way too powerful, at least without a whole lot of persuasion.

aaron out.

[vivi]

I like the class a lot.

...

I have nothing helpful to say.

[thevorpalbunny]

With the sneak attack (max distance 30 ft IIRC), Point Blank Shot (prereq. for Precise Shot) and the flanking before 5th level, the "danger zone" for this class is about 30 ft away. Maybe to tone down the apparently scary ability to make AoOs from 100 away, change "within one range increment" to just "within 30 ft," focusing the class a bit more. This would require a different capstone ability and/or changing the whole list of abilities to function within one range increment, but it seems worth it for more of a focus and synergy to the abilities.

I like the idea and concept of the class, but I don't much like ranged feinting. Something with firing into grapple might be interesting, but not powerful. Perhaps bonuses for aid another actions? +3 or +4 instead of +2 would be helpful, but not overpowering (IMO) and would be in the original idea of the class.

[Lord Iames Osari]

no, don't do that. maybe model it after a style feat or something. if said creature is hit by 2+ arrows in one round, it needs to make a reflex save in order to continue any movement that round.

or if you hit by 5+ or something (simulating some kind of precision in the shot, knowing where to put the arrow, etc), then it has to save.

i realize that the first option gets rid of the niftiness of the AoO for pin down. but i'm ok with that as i see a ranged AoO versus anyone that moves within 100+ feet way too powerful, at least without a whole lot of persuasion.

aaron out.

That's not the idea of the ability though (not mine, anyway); it's not that the enemy stops moving because he gets hit with arrows or what-have-you, it's that he stops moving because he doesn't want to be hit by the arrows or whatever.

Would it be better if instead of it being an AoO, I just made it an immediate action?

Hmmm. I actually like the idea of increasing the aid another bonus. Should I make that the capstone ability instead of increasing the range on ranged flanking?

[Stycotl]

i'm not really sure what element exactly you are trying to recreate. covering fire was meant to kill if at all possible, and if not, to pin them down, as you said, because they are afraid of getting hit. four years in the marine corps infantry taught me that much.

all i am saying, is that i don't see the mechanics accomplishing that in the way you are trying to do it.

in real life, for cover fire to be effective, there needs to be a lot of it. sure, sniper fire hurts and helps, but it is really the automatic fire of two or more saws or medium machine guns that encourages the enemy to hole up where he is.

they call it 'talking guns', and it requires more than one.

here, you kinda have to go for the sniper effect. if i were you, i would not concentrate on wasting arrows to shot the dirt at their feet or something when you have the chance to take a kill shot. i would also not grab 5 arrows at once and shoot them shotgun-style in order to scare the movement out of him. for one, it is completely without any semblance of reality, and second, it is just strategically unsound.

one shot, one kill. make your arrows count. make it a shot that hits the enemy, does damage, and forces the enemy to rethink its tactics. you could, i suppose, make the shot have some sort of a checking effect even if it misses. maybe just give it a base dc, and every point by which you defeat their ac in the attack raises the save dc, while every point by which you failed to defeat their ac lowers the dc by one. something along those lines.

you could even go into a white raven-ish stance dealio where if you strike a foe with an arrow, his allies within so many feet have to save, and if you drop a foe, his allies have to make even harder, wet-your-pants kind of saves.

that is honestly how the longbowmen did it back in the good old days too. their volleys terrified their foes. but, that wasn't the primary purpose. the purpose was to kill. and in killing, they created even more terror, even more confusion, and denied the enemy even more strategic movement.

i rest my case.

aaron out.

[SilentNight]

Um, yeah, I like it. Very nice flavor and design. Seemingly balanced too. Good job.:smallbiggrin:

[Lord Iames Osari]

All right, Stycotl, I see your point.

Hmmm.

How about if I move Ranged Flanking down to 3rd and put "Improved aid another" in at 4th level?[hr]Ranged Tactician
Ranged tacticians are those who have learned how to apply their abilities in ranged combat to assist their allies and hinder their enemies.
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks.
Feats: Precise Shot.

Class Skills
The ranged tactician's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int Mod.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2|Long-distance aid
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Ranged feint, sneak attack +1d6
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3|Ranged flanking
4th|+4|+1|+4|+4|Improved aid another, sneak attack +2d6
5th|+5|+1|+4|+4|Improved ranged flanking[/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ranged tacticians gain no proficiency in any weapons or armor.
Long-Distance Aid (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, a ranged tactician can both perform and benefit from aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) actions in combat even if none of the people involved are in melee combat.
Ranged Feint (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a ranged tactician can take a move action to perform a feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) at range, expending one unit of ammunition (if applicable) in the process. If he is successful, the target is considered to be flat-footed against the ranged tactician's next ranged attack. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Sneak Attack (Ex): As the rogue ability of the same name.
Ranged Flanking (Ex): Beginning at 3rd leve, when a ranged tactician is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from up to 30 feet away. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence.

At 5th level, this ability improves. A ranged tactician now threatens (for the purposes of flanking only) from as far away as a single range increment of his ranged weapon, or from 30 feet away, whichever is larger. He still must have line of effect, and his foe must still be aware of his presence.
Improved Aid Another (Ex): At 4th level, the ranged tactician's ability to assist his allies improves. When performing the aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) action in combat, he grants his allies a +4 bonus to their attack rolls or Armor Class, rather than a +2 bonus.

[Stycotl]

i wasn't trying to get you to get rid of the ability. i think the idea is great, the shiniest one on the board. i just think it has to be tweeked to satisfy.

plus, an attack that deals damage AND stops movement is worth more for the money than one that shoots the dirt.

that is all.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, how? D&D has a tragic dearth of weapons capable of fully automatic fire, other players generally react poorly when you take control of their characters away from them, (one or both of which would be necessary to produce the volume of fire required), and the class doesn't operate on the assumption that you have a platoon of mooks following you around to fullfill the need.

[Stycotl]

Well, how? D&D has a tragic dearth of weapons capable of fully automatic fire, other players generally react poorly when you take control of their characters away from them, (one or both of which would be necessary to produce the volume of fire required), and the class doesn't operate on the assumption that you have a platoon of mooks following you around to fullfill the need.

simple. i got a chuckle out of that one.

in all fairness, it might have to be an AoO after all. i admit that i'm off there. at least for the idea of penalizing movement. you could take away their movement with an ability even if they don't move, but for the flavor of the ability, maybe it needs to stay. first range increment still seems high to me.

maybe pick a zone. or a direction. or something. every round the zone can change, or something similar. i can understand within a 30' circle getting AoOs (maybe even 40' or 50' at higher levels), or within a conical zone over which you are vigilant. but 100' or 110' for some bows, in a sphere around you is too much for anyone to be that intimately aware of without lotsa magic.

go back to the sniper fire simulation. not necesarily hiding in the bushes with a ghillie suit on, but just the one shot, one kill. you, the archer, positioned at the corner of a building as your two tank buddies, and the flanker rush the boss who is trying to kidnap the princess, and the wizard hides behind your shoulder, attempting to take out the hired goons. You target goon number one just for the heck of it on your turn, but then wait! goon number two leaves the cover of the palace walls in order to intercept your buddies. you snap a quick, precise shot off, sticking it right in the belly. the speed of the shot, the incredible battlefield control you manage, and the chance that there is another such shot coming his way, drive him to dive to the ground, nursing his wound. next round, boss himself has hoisted the princess over his shoulder and turns to run away. you fire off a shot that thunks into the back of his kneecap and both boss and princess tumble into the pond. tanks and rogue jump in after them. wizard kills a few more goons. you keep overwatch, an arrow nocked and ready for the next one retarded enough to stand up and try to move on your turf.

make it a normal shot. either rewarding a high hit, or the second or better shot that round against that foe. go from there. i did kinda like the idea of making it work even if you miss the shot, just subtracting from the dc. kinda supports the idea that a shot to the dirt could still have the desired effect. but of course i'm gonna like it cuz i thought of it.

anyway, sorry for bursting any bubbles if that is what i did. i was just trying to help shape the bubble, not kill it.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Ok, how's this? I've pumped Pin Down up a bit, and removed the sneak attack to compensate.[hr]Ranged Tactician
Ranged tacticians are those who have learned how to apply their abilities in ranged combat to assist their allies and hinder their enemies.
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Bluff 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks.
Feats: Precise Shot.

Class Skills
The ranged tactician's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int Mod.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2|Long-distance aid
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Ranged feint
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3|Pin down
4th|+4|+1|+4|+4|Improved aid another
5th|+5|+1|+4|+4|Ranged flanking[/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ranged tacticians gain no proficiency in any weapons or armor.
Long-Distance Aid (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, a ranged tactician can both perform and benefit from aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) actions in combat even if none of the people involved are in melee combat.
Ranged Feint (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a ranged tactician can take a move action to perform a feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) at range, expending one unit of ammunition (if applicable) in the process. If he is successful, the target is considered to be flat-footed against the ranged tactician's next ranged attack. This attack must be made on or before his next turn.
Pin Down (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a ranged tactician wielding a ranged weapon may, as a free action, designate a cone-shaped area emanating from himself and extending out to one full range increment. If an opponent within that area attempts to move (other than a five-foot step), the ranged tactician may attempt to stop him in his tracks with a well-aimed shot. The ranged tactician must make an attack roll against his target. If he hits his opponent, the target must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + the ranged tactician's damage roll. The target takes no damage on a success and full damage on a failure. Regardless of the outcome of the saving throw, if the ranged tactician's attack roll is successful, the target must immediately halt as if he had used up his move action for the round. Using this ability counts as one of the ranged tactician's attacks of opportunity for the round. The ranged tactician must have line of sight and line of effect to his target.
Improved Aid Another (Ex): At 4th level, the ranged tactician's ability to assist his allies improves. When performing the aid another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) action in combat, he grants his allies a +4 bonus to their attack rolls or Armor Class, rather than a +2 bonus.
Ranged Flanking (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, when a ranged tactician is wielding a ranged weapon, he threatens foes (for purposes of flanking only) from from as far away as a single range increment of his ranged weapon, or from 30 feet away, whichever is larger. In order to threaten an enemy in this way, he must have line of sight and line of effect, and his foe must be aware of his presence.

[Stycotl]

that looks good. i still like the damage being constant and the movement being the focus of the save, but that is just me, and you have satisfied my inane, obsessive desires. thanks for humoring me. aaron out.

wait. so, for the rest of the class, since i have up to this point only harped on one subject: looks good. gives more of a reason to be a ranged martial character, which is serverly lacking, and does a good job of holding its own in the area that it professes to specialize in. kudos.

ok, now, aaron out.

[Stycotl]

and incidentally, the ranged feint is pretty cool. i can actually see it in my head. of course, in my head i am using squad-sized machine guns and psyching the enemy out with the talking guns tactic that i mentioned. but it works the same. i suppose that in my head, i am using the ranged aid another along with the ranged feint. cool stuff.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Thanks. I clarified the wording on Pin Down to make it clear that the cone is emanating from the character and not just floating around wherever.

Edit: Further clarification that Pin Down requires line of sight and line of effect.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Veni, vidi, offensi.

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