Lone Wolf vs. Rurouni Kenshin

[yoshi927]

It had to happen sooner or later.

The main character of Lone Wolf and Cub vs. Rurouni Kenshin.

Scenario one; Lone Wolf gets an assassination contract for Kenshin, and he has time to plan an attack.

Scenario two; Lone Wolf carries out an assassination on Kaoru, and Kenshin goes after him for revenge.

Scenario three; Kenshin and Ogami engage in a formal duel, facing each other in a forest clearing.

Who would win?!

[Rogue 7]

I don't know the Lone Wolf at all so I can't comment on respective abilities, but I'd say that murdering Kaouru is enough to trigger full-on Battousai mode. Which is dangerous, to say the least.

[Fri]

Agreed.

Whatever happened, you do not kill kaoru.

Actually, the lone wolf might be able to kill kenshin. But not after he turn into battosai mode.

[Kekken]

This is a close one. Kenshin's Battosai mode is powerful (esp.) in how fast it is... but Itto I believe has one major advantage in his fighting style:

Ogami Itto knows that his sword is a tool, nothing more. Not sacred, not to be cherished as anything more than a deliver of death to his foes. This allows him to use rather unorthodox methods, including in at least one case, throwing his sword at an oponent expecting a charge.

Now, if this Battosai style in anything similar to the Battojutsu style, it involves mainly lightning fast draws designed to take an enemy offguard.

The trouble is, in the Manga at least, Ogami Itto demostrates an almost supernatural ability to read his oponents murderous intent, and later, to mask his own through the application of mu (nothingness). Later, he learns to increase this power to a point that he cancels out the sakki, or murderous intent of his opponent, thus making even more difficult to strike.

Now, this is not intended to be a fanboyish this-guy-is-so-awesome-and-wins-because-I-like-him-the-best. Rather, I am just catalogueing (from memory, mainly, so I could be mistaken) the advantages Ogami Itto would have in a duel. Kenshin may have techniques to counter any or all of these, but if he doesn't, if he's "simply" and extremely fast and accurate battojutsu user, then here's one possible outcome.

They face each other in the clearing, about 10 paces apart. After what seems an eternity of reading each other, Lone wolf seems to make the first move, dashing forward.

Kenshin prepares himself for a iai strike, and draws with perfect form... but Ogami Itto is nowhere near his blade. Instead, Kenshin looks down to see the the Lone Wolf's sword in his chest. Halfway towards the master battousai, Itto threw his sword, taking Kenshin off guard.

The above scenario is best case for Itto, assuming Kenshin cannot counter the afore mentioned psychological advantages of Itto. Of course, it may be just as possible that Kenshin is so fast, that even being taken by surprise is no disadvantage.

So, in recap, I think the advantagous of Itto are a low level precognition when to it comes to murderous intent (i.e. he knows precisely when an opponent is about to strike), the ability to hide his own from others (making him all the more deadly as an assasin), and the ability to emanmate his Mu (nothingness) outwards, thus cancelling the Sakki (murderous intent) of his opponent.

If Kenshin's only advantage is speed (even supernatural speed), then I feel this one goes to Itto, especially if Kenshin finds himself unable to even strike his opponent. Otherwise, it is indeed very close...

[Blue Paladin]

Ogami Itto knows that his sword is a tool, nothing more. Not sacred, not to be cherished as anything more than a deliver of death to his foes. This allows him to use rather unorthodox methods, including in at least one case, throwing his sword at an oponent expecting a charge.I think a lot of Kenshin is based on similar principles. In the very introduction fight where Kenshin's true nature is revealed, he knows very well the cruel nature of swords: "ken wa kyouki. kenjutsu wa satsujinjutsu." A sword is a deadly weapon. A sword style is a killer's style.

Kenshin also has a thrown sword technique (hiryusen), because it is (rather ridiculously classified as) another battoujutsu: it's thrown from the sheath. He also has a counter for the thrown blade technique, which he demonstrated in his second duel against Shinomori Aoshi (although there was a twist to Aoshi's version).


The trouble is, in the Manga at least, Ogami Itto demostrates an almost supernatural ability to read his oponents murderous intent,This is the entire philosophy of Kenshin's style. Hiten mitsurugi ryu is based entirely on reading the opponent's intent, and moving at blindingly fast speed to counter.


and later, to mask his own through the application of mu (nothingness).This is probably the most demonstrable point against Kenshin. When fighting against Soujiro (boy who sealed away his emotions and thus had no kenki), Kenshin could no longer apply the fundamentals of his swordplay. He was forced to make the first move, and try to resepond appropriately against Soujiro's reaction.


Later, he learns to increase this power to a point that he cancels out the sakki, or murderous intent of his opponent, thus making even more difficult to strike.Against the Battousai version, this would be devastating. Bereft of a killing aura, his effectiveness would be reduced significantly.

Against the Kenshin version, this ability would have negligible effect. Kenshin's not out to kill his opponent, and in fact, is actively trying to keep his opponents alive.


So, in recap, I think the advantagous of Itto are a low level precognition when to it comes to murderous intent (i.e. he knows precisely when an opponent is about to strike), the ability to hide his own from others (making him all the more deadly as an assasin), and the ability to emanmate his Mu (nothingness) outwards, thus cancelling the Sakki (murderous intent) of his opponent.Hmm. So Ogami's precog is based on recognizing his opponent's sakki? In that case, he'd find it a hard read, because Kenshin's not trying to kill. Kenshin's precog is similarly baffled by Ogami's mu.

That brings the fight down purely into the physical. Even if Kenshin is faster than Ogami (which is probable), I'll lay odds that he's physically weaker. Since the most powerful moves of Hiten mitsurugi ryu put excessive strain on Kenshin's body, his stamina is also in question. The longer Ogami can drag out the fight, the more likely he is to tire Kenshin out.

In the given scenarios in the OP:

1) Ogami plans. Ogami ambushes. Kenshin defends. Kenshin realizes that if he dies, Kaoru would be left all alone. This gives him that extra something (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePowerOfLove) that enables him to transcend his limits and defeat Ogami.

2) Ogami kills Kaoru. Kenshin goes berserk and slips back into Battousai mode. His rage is smothered by Ogami's Mu, and Ogami wins easily.

3) Kenshin loses the duel, but due to tenacious skill, keeps his life. Ogami is satisfied with his hard-fought victory, and helps Kenshin back to the Kamiya dojo.

[ZeroNumerous]

Theres only one problem to Ogami winning. Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki(Lit. Heavens Bridging Dragon Spark) involves attacking at a superhuman speed. Even if Ogami knows Kenshin is about to swing and he successfully dodges it, then the speed of Kenshin's swing creates a vacuum that paralyzes Ogami while Kenshin uses the momentum of his miss to spin around for a second significally stronger strike. Regardless of his ability to dilute the killing intent of his opponent or read his opponent's killing intent, Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki is designed to kill this exact type of opponent, since it is intented as the succession technique that a student uses to kill the current Hiro Seijuro.

Kenshin wins, at the cost of killing another man.

[Kekken]

Theres only one problem to Ogami winning. Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki(Lit. Heavens Bridging Dragon Spark) involves attacking at a superhuman speed. Even if Ogami knows Kenshin is about to swing and he successfully dodges it, then the speed of Kenshin's swing creates a vacuum that paralyzes Ogami while Kenshin uses the momentum of his miss to spin around for a second significally stronger strike. Regardless of his ability to dilute the killing intent of his opponent or read his opponent's killing intent, Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki is designed to kill this exact type of opponent, since it is intented as the succession technique that a student uses to kill the current Hiro Seijuro.

Kenshin wins, at the cost of killing another man.

I may have not been very clear when I said that Ogami Itto's ability to emanate his mu to cancell the murderous intent of his opponent prevents said oponent from striking. I didn't mean it makes him miss. I mean it prevents him from even starting to attack, or at least, to falter in mid swing.

This Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki technique sounds like it definatly requires murderous intent.

[Rogue 7]

Kenshin's managed it several times without killing. It helps that he's wielding a Sakabato- with a bladed sword it is absolutely deadly.

[ZeroNumerous]

This Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki technique sounds like it definatly requires murderous intent.

Then he uses the sakabato and only breaks all of Ogami's ribs. Then when Ogami is unconscious, Kenshin beheads him. It's hardly important, since Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki cannot be dodged or blocked.

[yoshi927]

Well, an important idea of Japanese swordplay is that you have to have your mind completely clear, with no thoughts whatsoever. The idea is that if you stop to think about something, your mind will stop there and your hands and feet will no longer do what is needed. I think the basic idea with Ogami's mu attacks is to get people to stop on something and hesitate. If Kenshin tried to pull off that attack without total focus, then he would just end up killing himself. (if I'm not wrong, it's been a while since I read that manga)

[Kekken]

Then he uses the sakabato and only breaks all of Ogami's ribs. Then when Ogami is unconscious, Kenshin beheads him. It's hardly important, since Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki cannot be dodged or blocked.

If the manga is anything to go by, there is no gaurantee that having all his ribs broken is going to knock Ogami unconscience. This is a man who once survived being constantly beaten around the head and ribs by yakuza for hours on end, while being constantly ducked into water, hanging upside down, and walked away.

This is not to say Itto is invincible. Far from it. But if Kenshin only gets one strike in, maybe two (using the aforementioned technique), and doesn't drop Lone Wolf quickly...

Of course, having all his ribs shattered could result in death due to massive internal bleeding or pierced lungs or the like. But as this would be an unintended result from the principled samuarai, there would be no murderous intent to negate with mu. Basically, the best way for Kenshin to win might be to accidently kill Ogami.

Of course, it's techniques like the aformentioned, and others of seemingly deadly style, that make me question his dedication to non-bloodshed. A swordsman as trained as he should know that even a blunted, steel sword (which I believe is what this sakaboto is), when swung with enough force and speed (say, for example, enough to create a vacuum in its wake), would be almost as likely to kill than a sharp blade.

If he was truely dedicated to non-bloodshed, then he would put away his sword and take up martial arts, esp one of the "soft" styles like juijutsu or aikido, thus allowing him to still defend those he cares for.

Of course, that wouldn't be nearly as cool. Seems this series wants to have its cake and eat it too, by giving us both an enlightened pseudo-pasicifist and an awesome swordsman.

Lone Wolf and Cub is at least honest in that, while yes, bushi could be philosophers and poets, in the end, they are all killers, and that thier path is the path of murder and death.

[Rogue 7]

Well, Kenshin's arguably good enough with his sword that he can avoid striking vital points. That's really beside the point though- he uses Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu because he's good at it. Were he to learn Aikido or something, he'd be at a severe disadvantage against someone with a blade, and he'd be less able to actually protect people.

And more importantly, we wouldn't be able to have all those cool swordfights without it.

[ZeroNumerous]

This is a man who once survived being constantly beaten around the head and ribs by yakuza for hours on end, while being constantly ducked into water, hanging upside down, and walked away.

Thats pretty bad, for a human. Kenshin's attack is at a super-human, near sonic speed. He swings so fast it displaces the air behind the blade, which causes the aforementioned vacuum that paralyzes you in the event that you dodge. If his ribs are broken, I'm gonna say his organs are also gonna be mushed. Ogami's gonna die if he gets hit with that kind of force.

Further: Kenshin is in no way dedicated to non-bloodshed. He's dedicated to not killing again. Theres a vast different between the two. In fact, in the opening episode he breaks a man's thumb and knocks out no less than twelve people.

He has no killing intent unless he's in his Battosai-state. He doesn't want to kill you. Just horribly maim you if you're being a jerk/bad guy/rebel.


Lone Wolf and Cub is at least honest in that, while yes, bushi could be philosophers and poets, in the end, they are all killers, and that thier path is the path of murder and death.

The entire OVA series of Samurai X is about a tarnished childhood leading to multiple assassinations, the death of a thousand men, and a swordsman making a vow to never kill again.

Ruroni Kenshin picks up immediately after that with Kenshin hurting people in non-lethal methods, but ultimately being forced to kill because his opponents refuse to surrender or stop until they are dead.

Finally: The philosophy of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu is to protect those you care for, whether through killing or non-lethal methods. He is both a philosopher and a warrior, simply because his philosophy falls in line with his warrior nature.

[Blue Paladin]

It's hardly important, since Amakakeru Ryū no Hirameki cannot be dodged or blocked.Really? Then someone should go tell Yukishiro Enishi that he was doing the impossible. While you're at it, also tell him there's no way he could possibly have blocked the Kuzuryusen. Twice.


Seems this series wants to have its cake and eat it too, by giving us both an enlightened pseudo-pasicifist and an awesome swordsman.Yeah. His name is Myojin Yahiko. :smallsmile:


...in the opening episode [Kenshin] breaks a man's thumb and knocks out no less than twelve people.Only because he knew that Hiruma Gohei wouldn't stop; even having the thumb of his primary sword hand broken didn't stop him from developing a lethal left-handed sword style. Kenshin broke the other thumb to "finish the job" that Kaoru's father started: stop Gohei from using a killing sword.


Ruroni Kenshin picks up immediately after that with Kenshin hurting people in non-lethal methods, but ultimately being forced to kill because his opponents refuse to surrender or stop until they are dead.Uh... The whole point of Kenshin is that he doesn't kill any more. At different points, he's willing to kill (Jine), thinks he has killed (Cho, Hiko), but from beginning to end, he doesn't ever kill anyone.

[WalkingTarget]

Of course, it's techniques like the aformentioned, and others of seemingly deadly style, that make me question his dedication to non-bloodshed. A swordsman as trained as he should know that even a blunted, steel sword (which I believe is what this sakaboto is), when swung with enough force and speed (say, for example, enough to create a vacuum in its wake), would be almost as likely to kill than a sharp blade.

Rule of Cool in in play here. Having the "reverse-blade" sword is a gimmick and an excuse to have a yard-long, narrow steel bar do purely "bashing" (to use a WoD term) damage when a blow would normally be lethal. It's Shōnen anime, roll with it. :smallsmile:

[nothingclever]

I haven't read the manga but I know Itto Ogami has killed many many people in the movies using a machine gun/cannon weapon hidden in the baby carriage he wheels his son around in which also carries extra swords.

Could he not use these things in the fight to win? If the terrain is mostly flat I think Kenshin should be hit by at least something even if he has superhuman dodging skills.

[Rogue 7]

I'm re-reading the Manga right now, but I'm fairly sure that Enshi was able to dodge the Amakeru ryu no Hirameki because Kenshin was forced to use it on that puppet-thing. Ogami wouldn't have that advantage.

[Kekken]

I haven't read the manga but I know Itto Ogami has killed many many people in the movies using a machine gun/cannon weapon hidden in the baby carriage he wheels his son around in which also carries extra swords.

Could he not use these things in the fight to win? If the terrain is mostly flat I think Kenshin should be hit by at least something even if he has superhuman dodging skills.

He does indeed. The underside of the baby cart is armored as well. Basically, with one quick motion, he can transform it from a baby cart to an armored machine-gun placement.

It says a lot about Itto's philosophy that he is absolutely no qualms about using guns, whereas most samurai frowned on them.

Now, I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that in one of the episodes of the series, a villian uses a gatling gun on Kenshin, who (according to the rumour I heard), was able to deflect the bullets with his sword and then cut the steel gatling gun clean in half.

If this is true, then here we see a problem with this match up. Kenshin seems to be almost high fantasy, Exalted style, in what he can do. Itto is perhaps the extremes of reality. Kenshin almost seems to have Arts ala Exalted (perhaps of Dragon Blood level, he's not that uberpowerful), whereas Itto is "simply" an extremely talented swordsman; perhaps he has techniques ala L5R, and is definatly rank 5.

This match seems more and more to be going towards Kenshin, but you can be sure Ogami Itto will make him work for that victory...

[Blue Paladin]

I'm re-reading the Manga right now, but I'm fairly sure that Enshi was able to dodge the Amakeru ryu no Hirameki because Kenshin was forced to use it on that puppet-thing. Ogami wouldn't have that advantage.If that were all, then Enishi shouldn't have had any trouble dodging the same move the second time around. In the rematch, they each used the same moves as before, but their mindsets were reversed; Kenshin had passed beyond his doubt and his mind was clear, while Enishi's previous (pure) obsession with revenge became clouded with uncertainty.


Now, I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that in one of the episodes of the series, a villian uses a gatling gun on Kenshin, who (according to the rumour I heard), was able to deflect the bullets with his sword and then cut the steel gatling gun clean in half.The blocking bullets thing is Shinguuji Sakura (Sakura Taisen: Gouka Kenran ep.1!) :smalltongue:

Against the gatling gun, the Oniwabanshu sacrificed themselves to give Kenshin the time he needed to pick up his sword. After that, Kenshin does dodge the initial shots (I honestly can't remember him blocking at all), but then leaps up (presumably to dodge more). Kanryu re-orients the gun to fire at Kenshin in mid-air, but the feed jams on Beshimi's "missed" poison dart at that moment. Kenshin finishes falling and slices through the machine gun.

Kenshin credits the Oniwabanshu with defeating the gatling gun, implying that he would not have been able to beat it alone. You might interpret this as Kenshin being nice to Aoshi about getting all his subordinates killed, but personally I think the gatling gun's ROF (under normal circumstances) would take Kenshin out.

[Rogue 7]

Kenshin blocked a singular bullet from one of those two brothers during his fight with Sanosuke. He couldn't take on a gattling gun.

[turkishproverb]

Alot of the fight in the Kaoru instance depends on weather or not Ogami's abilites are powerful enough to knock out Battosai level killing intent. As I recall, the ability wasn't foolproof.

[Khoray]

Listen here, one of them is named Lone Wolf. That pretty much ends all debate.

If you still have arguments, consider the other has orangey-pink hair.

[Kekken]

Listen here, one of them is named Lone Wolf. That pretty much ends all debate.

If you still have arguments, consider the other has orangey-pink hair.

You're right. Rurouni Kenshin wins, as Ogami Itto is paralysed by the cliche of that title.

Now, if he could use his full title of Lone Wolf and Cub, that could be different, as that's original, whereas there have been thousands of "Lone Wolves".

I might seem inconsistent here, as my support has always been more towards Ogami Itto then Kenshin, and this remains true. But if the fight is going to be based on who has the better name, than in my eyes at least, a proper, more or less original name wins over a tired cliche any day.

[turkishproverb]

You're right. Rurouni Kenshin wins, as Ogami Itto is paralysed by the cliche of that title.

Now, if he could use his full title of Lone Wolf and Cub, that could be different, as that's original, whereas there have been thousands of "Lone Wolves".

I might seem inconsistent here, as my support has always been more towards Ogami Itto then Kenshin, and this remains true. But if the fight is going to be based on who has the better name, than in my eyes at least, a proper, more or less original name wins over a tired cliche any day.


Lol. Great.

Course, the name Kenshin is a historical reference.

[pendell]

A point we're missing is that Sword-fighting is not Lone Wolf's only fighting style. He has also dual-wielded Nagamaki. Would that fight be any different?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogue 7]

He dual wields what I essentially take to be two of those Elven glaive-sword-things from the movie LOTR? (This is based off of the wikipedia entry). I can't imagine that style being all that fast based on the size of the things, and you've GOT to be fast to deal with kenshin. Sano's Zanbatou proved that beyond any doubt.

The only dual-wielder we've seen is Aoshi, who from the Kyoto arc onwards wields twin Kodachi. He's about Kenshin's equal with them, but they aren't really fast enough to counter the Amakeru Ryu no Hirameki. If Kenshin pulls that one out, I doubt that Itto will be able to stop that.

[pendell]

He dual wields what I essentially take to be two of those Elven glaive-sword-things from the movie LOTR? (This is based off of the wikipedia entry). I can't imagine that style being all that fast based on the size of the things, and you've GOT to be fast to deal with kenshin. Sano's Zanbatou proved that beyond any doubt.


I don't know about real life, but he is dramatically fast with the things. If you read Vol. 1 of Lone Wolf you can see them in action ... basically he turns into a human mowing machine with those two blades, and just rips his way through hordes of lower-level mooks and at least 8 bodyguard-level Samurai with them.

Fast? It's like fighting a lawnmower. Not to mention he has a reach advantage of about twice a normal sword's length.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogue 7]

:smallbiggrin: Reach also means that your defenses are correspondingly lacking. Aoshi proved this by beating on Kenshin in Kanryu's manor with essentially a shortsword. I don't think that the weapon would give him any particular edge over Kenshin- whether or not he's good enough to do so is irrelevant to the weapon he's using.

[Oslecamo]

Lone wolf wins, because he isn't afraid to fight dirty.

Lone wolf:Are you Kenshi?
Kenshi:Yes. Oh, what a nice little baby you have there...

BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA BUDDA

Kenshi:Crap. I really need to learn how to cut bullets mid air...(dies)


For those who don't know, Lone wolf carries an handy dandy child's vehicle with a battery of loaded fire weapons hidden in the front. Pressing a single hidden button causes all theweapons to fire at the same time releasing an hail of bullets. Nobody ever suspects it's true nature because he carries his little son inside.

He has used this to sucessfully kill entire squads of ninjas, archers and other mooks at big range with a single shot of this secret weapon.

Kenshin, on the other hand, has already proved to don't be able to dodge or block bullets at superhuman speed like most anime sword users do.

So Lone wolf and cub wins by puting several dozen shots into the batousai.

[Rogue 7]

How good is he at masking his own intent, though? Kenshin's style relies on reading the opponent- his emotions especially (that's why Soujiro gave him so much trouble), so if Itto can't conceal the fact that he's trying to do Kenshin in perfectly, it probably won't work.

And besides- that's no fun at all.

[pendell]

How good is he at masking his own intent, though? Kenshin's style relies on reading the opponent- his emotions especially (that's why Soujiro gave him so much trouble), so if Itto can't conceal the fact that he's trying to do Kenshin in perfectly, it probably won't work.

And besides- that's no fun at all.

Spoilers for lone wolf:

1) Question 1: Can he conceal his emotion well enough?

Volume 2: Gateless Barrier. Yes. Assassinating a Buddhist priest requires him to attain mu, the state of being completely centered, free of all emotion. He retains this ability throughout the strip, turning his emotions on and off at will.


Be that as it may .. I don't think he can use the cart's gun.


Volume 13: He loses a fight with his arch-enemy, Retsudo-sama, who captures the cart and it's gun. The gun is never seen again in all 28 volumes. What can I say? GMs always have ways to whittle down the swag to level-appropriate amounts.


So that means Lone Wolf will be using his Nagamaki, His sword, his body, and most importantly his brain.


In the final volume he again faces Retsudo with a broken sword .. he is left holding the hilt and the blade fragment extends about 4 inches from the hilt. Retsudo faces him with a spear.

During the battle, he throws the broken blade as a distraction, then steals Retsudo's spear.


So the question really is, just how smart are the two opponents? It isn't a matter of skill and weapons, it's a game of chess fought at blinding fast speed. The first one to make a wrong move dies.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogue 7]

Well, sort of. If we reasonably assume that their physical abilities are equal (assuming that Kenshin hasn't been adversely affected by the strain of Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu), then yes, it does come down to blindingly fast skill. But it's not really a chess game per se- it's more about reading your opponent and being where they aren't.