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View Full Version : Are Luck Feats worth taking?



Dragonmuncher
2008-03-11, 12:52 AM
I was sitting in class, my mind wandering, and I realized I had no idea if Luck feats were any good or not.

For those not aware, Luck feats are feats (found in... Complete Scoundrel, I think?) that allow you to reroll once per day certain specialized rolls. Such as, once per day you can reroll a crit confirm, or reroll damage, and the like. Each feat is very, very specialized. One feat lets you reroll a balance, climb, or jump feat.

Luck feats also add to each other- With two luck feats, you get two rerolls. They can both be spent on one type of reroll, or one of each, or on an ability that requires two rerolls.

Anyway, my question is, are they worth it? They seem neat, but a little TOO specialized when you consider how many feats an actual character gets. The only two I really think seem worth taking are Lucky Start (reroll your intiative) and Unbelivable Luck (get 2 luck rerolls and a +2 bonus to worst save). Maybe one more to take advantage of all those luck rerolls you now have, but there's three feats down the drain.

Thoughts?

Farmer42
2008-03-11, 12:57 AM
Dunno, but I have seen Better Lucky Than Good used to amazing effect.

Ganurath
2008-03-11, 01:00 AM
Better Lucky Than Good: Once per day, increase the threat range of your weapon. Lousy for scimitars, wondrous for scythes.

Lucky Start + Unbelievable Luck + Improved Initiative: Always get two rounds worth of Sneak Attacks in.

Other than that, not much to them. Be sure to avoid the Fortune's Friend PrC.

Farmer42
2008-03-11, 01:03 AM
Better Lucky Than Good: Once per day, increase the threat range of your weapon. Lousy for scimitars, wondrous for scythes.


No, it doesn't. It changes a roll of a nat 1 on an attack to a roll of nat 20. It's always useful, no matter what weapon.

Cybren
2008-03-11, 01:07 AM
In my sig there is the disciple of chaos, the best class ever, and it happens to require two luck feats

Squash Monster
2008-03-11, 01:08 AM
No, it doesn't. It changes a roll of a nat 1 on an attack to a roll of nat 20. It's always useful, no matter what weapon.Assuming you don't need a natural 20 to hit, a natural 20 on a scimitar is the same as a natural 18 or 19: 2x crit. But the scythe is 4x.

With the scimitar, that feat makes something that happens 3/20th of the time happen 1/4th of the time. With a scythe that makes something that happens 1/20th of the time happen 1/10th of the time. The latter is a far bigger benefit.

loopy
2008-03-11, 01:25 AM
I haven't heard of Unbelievable Luck before. Would someone be so kind as to enlighten me?

Ganurath
2008-03-11, 01:29 AM
I haven't heard of Unbelievable Luck before. Would someone be so kind as to enlighten me?It's with the other luck feats, just more obscure because the effects are passive: +2 to your worst saving throw so long as you have a luck reroll, and two extra luck rerolls. Prerequisite one luck feat. Use Lucky Start to get in, add Improved Initiative, and you're likely to be starting things off every encounter. It gets especially insane with CAd's Quick Reconnoiter keeping enemies from getting the drop on you.

SoD
2008-03-11, 01:35 AM
Other than that, not much to them. Be sure to avoid the Fortune's Friend PrC.

What's your reasoning? I know someone who played one, and it actually worked out really well for him. It was, admitedly, a one off tomb of horrors run, where he had to be lucky...

CASTLEMIKE
2008-03-11, 01:37 AM
Yes particularly in a non action point game or with a good DM who monitors the rolls (Like those Natural 1s) at the worst times.

Reroll a natural 1 1/day. Add +1D6 to a check or save 1/day.

The Seer variant for Action Points in a non action point game (Wizard's Web article).

Irreverent Fool
2008-03-11, 07:16 AM
IIRC with each luck feat you take you get an additionally luck reroll that may be used for anything you have a luck feat for.

I don't really think -- from an optimization standpoint -- that the luck feats re much good. To make them useful, you need to take a handful of them so you can mix and match those luck rerolls.

That being said, there are definitely worse feats you could take. If your DM makes Bad Things happen on natural 1s, Better Lucky than Good will probably save your life.

Overall I think they're fun and add an extra layer to the game without extra complexity.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-11, 07:45 AM
I think Dumb Luck is a really good one. (turn a 1 on a saving throw intoa 20) Given that 1s are what destroys your equipment....

Tempting Fate is, IMO a must have for high level characters.

Burley
2008-03-11, 08:14 AM
Assuming you don't need a natural 20 to hit, a natural 20 on a scimitar is the same as a natural 18 or 19: 2x crit. But the scythe is 4x.

With the scimitar, that feat makes something that happens 3/20th of the time happen 1/4th of the time. With a scythe that makes something that happens 1/20th of the time happen 1/10th of the time. The latter is a far bigger benefit.

Um...No. They aren't the same thing. See the beauty of having a natural 20 is that you always hit. If you have a keen rapier, and roll a 15, it's a possible crit, unless you're rolling against an AC of 16. Cause...then you still don't hit.

That feat isn't about critting on a 1, it's about hitting on a 1. It gives you two chances to automatically hit, and negates all auto-fumbles. It's a beautiful feat for any weapon ever invented ever. Except...maybe...Backbiters...

valadil
2008-03-11, 08:36 AM
I like luck feats but never really have room for them. If I played a PrC from CS who got luck feats for free I'd probably take a couple more, but one or two alone has never seemed worthwhile.

Person_Man
2008-03-11, 08:43 AM
No.

Although very flavorful and fun for one shot games, Luck feats generally suck.

There are a few ok ones, but they are generally situational, and require 2 other very sucky Luck feats as pre-reqs.

My general optimization approach is to pick feats that can be used every round. If you're not using it every round, then its being wasted, and you're generally better off getting a magic item/spell/etc to emulate or approximate the feat. And by definition you can only use Luck feats a very limited number of times per day - so if your DM is using the 4ish encounters per game day, they'll be of very little use.

Squash Monster
2008-03-11, 12:22 PM
Um...No. They aren't the same thing. See the beauty of having a natural 20 is that you always hit. If you have a keen rapier, and roll a 15, it's a possible crit, unless you're rolling against an AC of 16. Cause...then you still don't hit.


Assuming you don't need a natural 20 to hit, a natural 20 on a scimitar is the same as a natural 18 or 19: 2x crit. But the scythe is 4x.

And yes. It's a time you hit instead of miss. That does help for every weapon. It is not, however, insanely useful, as it only happens 5% of the time. Furthermore, the auto-hit of a 20 is not terribly important, as attack bonus scales much faster than AC. Unless you're playing very low-level, you're going to hit on most rolls anyway.

And no, rolling a 15 against AC 16 is not a miss, unless you have an attack modifier of 0 or less: if so, you should be more worried about the fact that you obviously don't belong in a fight, than worried about rolling a 1.

I'm not arguing that the feat is useless for most weapons, the same as I wouldn't argue that weapon focus (which is also +5% chance to hit) isn't completely useless. But it still is vastly more useful with scythes and such.

Triaxx
2008-03-11, 12:28 PM
Any of them give an advantage when trying to penetrate Spell Resistance? And can I stack them with the Luck Domain?

Ganurath
2008-03-11, 12:53 PM
Any of them give an advantage when trying to penetrate Spell Resistance? And can I stack them with the Luck Domain?Magical Fortune lets you burn a reroll to reroll a spell's damage, or two rerolls to give a caster level check (such as to overcome SR) another go. Third Time's the Charm lets you expend a luck reroll 1/day to use the Luck Domain power a second time. Both feats grant another reroll, require you have a previous luck feat, and need you to be L3. Magical Fortune counts caster levels rather than character levels, however, and Third Time's the Charm (obviously) requires you have the Luck domain.

Burley
2008-03-11, 01:30 PM
And yes. It's a time you hit instead of miss. That does help for every weapon. It is not, however, insanely useful, as it only happens 5% of the time. Furthermore, the auto-hit of a 20 is not terribly important, as attack bonus scales much faster than AC. Unless you're playing very low-level, you're going to hit on most rolls anyway.

And no, rolling a 15 against AC 16 is not a miss, unless you have an attack modifier of 0 or less: if so, you should be more worried about the fact that you obviously don't belong in a fight, than worried about rolling a 1.

I'm not arguing that the feat is useless for most weapons, the same as I wouldn't argue that weapon focus (which is also +5% chance to hit) isn't completely useless. But it still is vastly more useful with scythes and such.

Okay, I missed that bolded part you bolded. My bad.

But, when you say that it's an extra 5% chance to hit, I think you're ignoring that it's an extra 5% chance to crit on every weapon. It doesn't increase your threat range, it gives you a 5% of getting the most covetted roll in the game.
On top of that, that extra 5% to crit is the ONLY other way to do that that I've ever seen. I'm not ignoring Keen or Improved Critical, but here's my reasoning for it. Improved Critical takes quite a while to get, and it can only be applied to ONE type of weapon, and Keen either takes a spell slot or a bunch of gold for a SINGLE weapon. This feat increases your crit range for everything you hold.
Now, we could assume you already have Improved Critical or a Keen weapon. They don't stack with each other. Once you double that range, you're done. But, now there is a feat that not only increases your threat range by 5%, but also completely negates that 5% chance of breaking your weapon, or stabbing yourself or an ally. It's a double-wammy without bending/breaking rules, or going munchkin.
I agree that it would seem more useful for something with a x4, instead of a 18-20x2. But, it's still a 5% change. 5% seems like a small number, but it is only one of 20 possible numbers. If you were rolling d% instead of d20, it'd seem horrible. But, when your percentage is measured in incremental percentages of 5, I'll take every 5% I can get. Especially when it negates the worst 5% and gives me a 10% chance to get the best roll possible.

Person_Man
2008-03-11, 03:06 PM
Stuff about crits.

Regarding critical hits, I think its worth walking through the basic math:

Expected Damage = [Probability of Hitting * Average Damage] + [(Crit Multiplier - 1) * Average Damage * Probability of Crit * Probability of Confirming]

In English, each round you can expect damage equal to the chance that you'll hit times the average damage from your attack, plus the extra damage from a crit times the probability of getting and confirming a crit. You should do this equation for each attack you have in a round (you can't just multiply it by the number of attacks you have, since your probability of hitting decreases on iterative attacks) and add them together to get your total expected damage. And obviously, the equation changes based on your enemies' AC and any bonuses or penalties you might otherwise incur.

Let's walk through the simplest example. Lets say you have a +10 To Hit. Your enemy has 21 AC, so you need to roll 11 or higher (50% to hit). You're wielding a scythe. You have 10 Str and have just one attack. So the expected damage from one round of attacks would be:

[.50 * 5] + [(4-1) * 5 * .05 * .50] = 2.5 + 0.375 = 2.875

Let's try the same equation with a falchion instead:

[.50 * 5] + [(2-1) * 5 * .15 * .50] = 2.5 + 0.375 = 2.875

You'll notice that high threat and high crit weapons have exactly the same mathematical effect on your expected damage. That's true even if you have Improved Crit or anything else that increases your crit threat range.

Now it doesn't take a lot of heavy math to figure out that you're going to be much better off trying to add scaled damage to the left side of the equation (Power Attack + Shock Trooper, Craven, etc) or by multiplying the equation (Headlong Rush, Battle Jump, Spirited Charge, anything that adds additional attacks).

Anything you do to increase the right half of the equation is going to have a minimal impact on your expected damage, because even if you auto crit every time you hit (an impossible combo), you still have to confirm your crit, which minimizes its mathematical impact on your expected damage.

I've done this equation with literally dozens of possible builds. It's just not worth it compared to pretty much any other reasonable melee build, even with "crit breaking" PrC like Psionic Weapon Master.

Kyeudo
2008-03-11, 03:30 PM
Survivor's Luck can be a real life saver, especialy if you have Mettle or Evasion or both. I made this character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=40251) to showcase ridiculous saves, and I think I succeeded. With Survivor's Luck, the odds of him ever failing a saving throw are ridiculously small.

Curmudgeon
2008-03-11, 08:49 PM
Are Luck Feats worth taking? No, they're not.

Any feat should be comparable to, or better than, other feats available to be a good choice. And feats should be about equal in power to Clerical domain granted powers, since many of these powers just grant feats.

The Pride domain grants you a reroll of any natural 1 on a saving throw, once per save. This is clearly better than a feat that is limited to one use per day.

Kyeudo
2008-03-11, 09:14 PM
Clerics get broken stuff, so discount what they can do when argueing how good something is. Same goes for Wizards.

Chronos
2008-03-11, 11:01 PM
Anything you do to increase the right half of the equation is going to have a minimal impact on your expected damage, because even if you auto crit every time you hit (an impossible combo), you still have to confirm your crit, which minimizes its mathematical impact on your expected damage.On the other hand, if you're a paladin, you can use Bless Weapon to guarantee those confirmations. And the fact that 20s are automatic hits, regardless of attack bonus, might make it appealing to Power Attack for full, and count on the one lucky roll in 10 to get your hits. Hitting one time in ten isn't so bad, if it applies to all of your iterative attacks, and each hit does 8d4 + 8 times your BAB and 4 times your other bonuses.

Ponce
2008-03-11, 11:38 PM
I have a beguiler who worked up to Lucky Start and Make Your Own Luck. The former is to win initiative, obviously, quite useful for a beguiler. The latter is used mainly in Use Magic Device checks. Obviously not as good as being able to take a 10 on the checks, but its rather useful to have around. These seem to be some of the more powerful uses of the feats, though even these will practically disappear in terms of utility at higher levels.

Tam_OConnor
2008-03-11, 11:47 PM
And now I want to stat up Mat Cauthon. But I have to go out and buy the book first...darn you all. :smallsmile:

kjones
2008-03-12, 07:39 AM
Isn't Good Karma a Luck feat? Not overly useful, but fun if you're a spellthief...

Curmudgeon
2008-03-12, 11:29 PM
Clerics get broken stuff, so discount what they can do when argueing how good something is. Same goes for Wizards. You entirely missed my point here. You just saw the word "Cleric" and went on tilt. Clerics also can take the Luck domain, the granted power of which is one reroll of anything, but only once per day. This is a weak option, not "broken stuff" -- and yet it seems to be the model for all these luck feats.

Person_Man already mentioned that it's more effective to pick feats that you can use most of the time. How many rolls are involved for a typical D&D character's day of 4 encounters? A lot. Being able to improve just one roll out of that total is thoroughly underwhelming. The Luck domain, like the luck feats, are worth less than other options available.

Let's consider a couple of feats outside the luck discussion to get some perspective on the type of analysis you should be making. Rogues are only marginally effective in combat without sneak attack, so players pick from feats like Deadly Precision and Craven to enhance sneak attack damage. Deadly Precision lets you reroll 1s on sneak attack dice, once per die. Craven adds a flat 1 point per character level. Rerolling is a luck-type capability, but simple arithmetical analysis shows that this is a poor option. You roll a 1 1/6th of the time, and on average increase that damage from 1 to 3.5, or +2.5. This is an average boost of 2.5/6, or 0.42 per sneak attack die. Rogues get one extra sneak die every 2 levels, so Deadly Precision gives a per-level average damage gain of 0.21. Compared to Craven at +1/level, Deadly Precision is only 1/5th as good.

You need to do the math. If you do that, you'll see that luck feats are like insurance. They help out in the worst situations, but at a cost that you must pay continually. In D&D the cost is the loss of another feat that could be providing you a benefit much more of the time. Insurance companies set their costs so they always make money, meaning your total benefit is less than what you pay for it. If people who bought life insurance to provide death benefits to their families instead just put the same money in a savings account, their families would be much better off. Similarly you shouldn't buy an expensive luck feat as insurance; it's a bad investment for your character.