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Duke of URL
2008-03-11, 02:01 PM
GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE VII: HOME ON THE RANGE(D)

Oh, give me a home,
Where the ranged targets roam,
And the ammo that'll make their lives hell...

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

"Home On The Range(d)" Specific Rules
Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, March 18, 2008.
Create a build that represents the most reliable and effective combatant who specializes in ranged weapons.
Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
Entries Received:
* Great Bows of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047428&postcount=2) (composite longbow)
* Kalashnikov (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047661&postcount=3) (bow)
* Thor the Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048344&postcount=4) (greathammer)
* (unnamed entry by playswithfire) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048706&postcount=6) (harpoons)
* Rocks Fall; I'm Already Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048943&postcount=7) (big rock)
* Ghost of a Chance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049039&postcount=8) (heavy crossbow)
* Swift Kinurra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049077&postcount=9) (shuriken)
* Morrigan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049290&postcount=12) (eldritch blast)
* Gat Ling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050102&postcount=18) (sai)
* Tauric Cheddar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050448&postcount=19) (bigger rock)
* Gurk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050650&postcount=22) (javelin)
* David is SO Ready for Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051001&postcount=25) (dart)
* Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051048&postcount=27) (bow) <== WINNER
* Potshot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051370&postcount=29) (sling)
* Daze of our lives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052221&postcount=35) (boomerang)
* Whispers In The Night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052757&postcount=41) (light crossbow)
* Cheese falls, everybody dies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053177&postcount=43) (biggest rock)
* Ghengis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053425&postcount=47) (composite longbow)
* Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053693&postcount=48) (shuriken)
* Arrow from the dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053763&postcount=50) (composite longbow)
* Samtrass, Arry Manrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053887&postcount=52) (greatbow)
* Long-Range Lawnmower (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4057809&postcount=58) (scythe)
* Diter Beleuda (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4061832&postcount=63) (greatbow)
* General D. Fenestrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4062923&postcount=65) (soldiers)
* Ignotus, Master of Unseen Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4067494&postcount=74) (bow)
* Sonic death arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4070549&postcount=78) (longbow)




Upcoming Challenges
Vulnerable Villains -- BBEGs with flair but an exploitable (if not necessarily obvious) weakness
Riders On The Storm -- combatants who focus on using mounts
Magnificent Monsters -- only high LA and racial HD creatures allowed
Skill-Monkey Business -- support specialists
In-core-eligible -- builds that don't use "core" races, classes, or feats
more to come... (I hope. Feel free to suggest some!)


Previous Challenges
Melee Masters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3873051)
Great Gishes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71548)
The Urge To Theurge (http://www.giantitp.cof/forums/showthread.php?t=72444)
Army Of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73021)
Invocation Vocation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73539)
Double Dippers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74253)

Duke of URL
2008-03-11, 02:07 PM
Name: Great Bows Of Fire
Build: Fire Elf Wizard 20 // Fighter 6 / Arcane Archer 9 / Darkwood Stalker 5
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 6
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: None in particular

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Abilities
Fire Elf | | | | Fire Elf Traits
1 | Wizard 1 // Fighter 1 | Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow | Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll | Summon Familiar
2 | Wizard 2 // Fighter 2 | | Precise Shot |
3 | Wizard 3 // Fighter 3 | Rapid Shot | |
4 | Wizard 4 // Fighter 4 | | Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow |
5 | Wizard 5 // Fighter 5 | | Empower Spell |
6 | Wizard 6 // Fighter 6 | Manyshot | Greater Manyshot |
7 | Wizard 7 // Arcane Archer 1 | | | Enhance Arrow
8 | Wizard 8 // Arcane Archer 2 | | | Imbue Arrow
9 | Wizard 9 // Arcane Archer 3 | Improved Critical: Composite Longbow | |
10 | Wizard 10 // Arcane Archer 4 | | Maximize Spell | Seeker Arrow
11 | Wizard 11 // Arcane Archer 5 | | |
12 | Wizard 12 // Arcane Archer 6 | Dodge | | Phase Arrow
13 | Wizard 13 // Arcane Archer 7 | | |
14 | Wizard 14 // Arcane Archer 8 | | | Hail Of Arrows
15 | Wizard 15 // Arcane Archer 9 | Track | Quicken Spell |
16 | Wizard 16 // Darkwood Stalker 1 | | | Ancient Foe
17 | Wizard 17 // Darkwood Stalker 2 | | | Uncanny Dodge
18 | Wizard 18 // Darkwood Stalker 3 | FEAT | | Sneak Attack
19 | Wizard 19 // Darkwood Stalker 4 | | | Darkvision
20 | Wizard 20 // Darkwood Stalker 5 | | Widen Spell | Improved Uncanny Dodge
[/table]

Offense

Defense

Good saves all around (reflex lags slightly), decent HP.

Weaknesses

Special

If planning on going epic, take the 10th level of Arcane Archer, otherwise it's not worth it (crappy capstone), so you can go Wizard 21+ // AA 11+ in epic.

Annarrkkii
2008-03-11, 03:12 PM
Slightly revised after some consideration. I decided to go ahead and give him splitting, as wack as it is, since other bow-users seem to be doing it, as well.

Name: Kalashnikov
Build: Egoist 13 / Elocater 7 // Tiefling LA 1 / Ranger 11 / Scout 3 / Warshaper 5
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 18, WIS 15, CHA 8
Earliest Playable ECL: 2
Cheese Points: 2 (Multiclass, Feeble flaw)
Power Breaks:
9—Overchannel to metamorphose to Arrow Demon
12—Expansion to Huge size Arrow Demon + morphic reach, threaten with bows
13—Capricious step + symmetrical archery + Swift Hunter

1. Egoist 1 // LA 1—Dodge, Combat Reflexes {psicrystal}
2. Egoist 2 // Ranger 1—Track {1st favored enemy: humans}
3. Egoist 3 // Ranger 2—Mobility, Rapid Shot
4. Egoist 4 // Scout 1—{Skirmish +1d6, trapfinding}
5. Egoist 5 // Scout 2—Extend Power, {Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge}
6. Egoist 6 // Scout 3—Spring Attack (retrain to Stand Still) {Fast movement +10ft, skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, trackless step}
7. Elocater 1 // Ranger 3—Endurance, Sidestep Charge {Scorn earth}
8. Elocater 2 // Ranger 4—{Animal companion, opportunistic strike +2}
9. Elocater 3 // Ranger 5—Point Blank Shot {2nd favored enemy: good outsiders, dimension step}
10. Elocater 4 // Warshaper 1—{Flanker, morphic immunities, morphic weapons}
11. Elocater 5 // Warshaper 2—{Opportunistic strike +4, morphic body}
12. Elocater 6 // Warshaper 3—Swift Hunter {Transporter, morphic reach, skirmish +2d6/+2 AC}
13. Elocater 7 // Warshaper 4—{Capricious step, morphic healing}
14. Egoist 7 // Warshaper 5—{Multimorph}
15. Egoist 8 // Ranger 6—Manyshot, Precise Shot {Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC}
16. Egoist 9 // Ranger 7—{Woodland stride}
17. Egoist 10 // Ranger 8—Quicken Power {Swift tracker, skirmish +3d6/+3 AC}
18. Egoist 11 // Ranger 9—Greater Manyshot {Evasion}
19. Egoist 12 // Ranger 10—{3rd favored enemy: whatever, skirmish +4d6/+3 AC}
20. Egoist 13 // Ranger 11—Improved Precise Shot

Offense:

Functioning as little more than hardy and wilderness-savvy utility manifester for his first 8 levels, Kalashnikov doesn't take off as a ranged combatant "for real" until he hits level 9, at which point his metamorphosis power, overchanneled to 10th-level manifester, allows him (with his Outsider type) to shift to the awe-inspiring, 10-HD Arrow Demon. All three of the Arrow Demon's key archery abilities (two bows at once, threaten as though wielding a melee weapon, and outsized wielding) are (EX) attacks, which are covered by metamorphosis. In this trick, Kalashnikov is a pretty standard shapechanging-abuse character. However, he takes it in a particularly godly direction to improve his ranged attack power.

Once he hits 13th level, his skirmish jumps in power, while capricious step allows him to knock out 10-ft. of movement per round for free, meaning a guaranteed skirmish AND full attack each round. And what a full attack it is. Expanded to Huge size in Arrow Demon form, with Rapid shot, and (at later levels) his twin bows of speed and (at VERY late levels) 4 iterative attacks allow him to make 6 attacks with each bow, bringing the total to 12. If he's targeting a foe who his Flyby-Attacking hawk companion or summoned goons mauled last round, he gets an extra +4 to attack and damage from opportunistic strike to cancel out 4 of the 8 points of penalty he takes from his various extra-attack and size increases. Each arrow is Gargantuan, due to outsized wielding, possess +1d6 of some type of energy damage, +5 from Extended Greater Metaphysical Weapon, tacked on with up to 4d6 skirmish damage each, as well as +10 straight from his metamorphosis-enhanced Strength and hefty belt.

That's 10 arrows, each one dealing 3d6 (base) + 10 (STR) + 5 (metaphysical weapon) + 4d6 (skirmish) + 1d6 (energy) + 4 (Opportunistic strike) + 2 (Bracers of archery + PBS), for an average of 43, 47, or 49 damage per arrow depending on range and conditions, followed by 10 arrows that do only the only 4d6 less, averaging 29, 31, or 33 each. His attack bonus suffers moderately from such an intense hails of arrows, and, though opportunistic striking can offset the problem to a degree, it will take a good deal of buffing to make such a salvo strike with complete accuracy. If he finds himself against foes his hail of arrows cannot reliably bring down (7 or more arrows of the initial volley miss), he will switch to instead skimming about the battlefield, firing off a mere 16 arrows (with Greater Manyshot and symmetrical archery). Though this method sacrifices 4 arrows per round, it loses all but the size penalties to his attacks. In case of emergency, he can even avoid Expansion to optimize his AC and attack further, if he needs all the precision he can muster.

He also manifests as an 18th-level Egoist.

Key items:

Greater Bracers of Archery
Pair of +1 Large Composite [+10] Longbow of Splitting (throw on whatever else you feel like, I suppose)
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Belt of Giant's Strength +6
Assorted +1 flaming/shock/frost arrows, as well as mithral, silver, and adamantine projectiles.


Defense:

Where other archers balk at the thought of enemies closing, depending on crutch spells like Arrow Mind to defend themselves, Kalashnikov revels in the chance to tear into his foes: point-blank. Closing with Kalashnikov requires passing under his reach—which varies in size from 10 to 20 ft. depending on his size. While Huge, his morphic reach allows him to threaten a broad swath of the battle field, and his Arrow Demon abilities allow him to threaten with his bows. Anyone closing is subject to a hefty arrow, and is liable to be forced to make a DC 42 save or stop dead in their tracks—and make it twice, since he gets to make 2 attacks every time one presents itself. Combat Reflexes and his nimble Dexterity allow him to put the brakes on up to 7 would-be attackers. From his Arrow Demon form and Warshaper levels, he also obtains a massive CON score and fast healing 2. His HD, primarily d8s, are unimpressive on their own, but (depending on buffing items/powers) a bonus of 10-12 per HD is choice.

Synergy between Psion and Ranger mean he has strong base saves across the board, his Arrow Demon form's strong DEX and immense CON give him strong physical saves. Wisdom trails slightly, but not by a large margin. I he's forced to abandon his Arrow Demon form for whatever reason, he typically flees, with a reduced-cost Quickened Psionic Planeshift or Teleport, or just his dimension step ability and scorn earth to reevaluate.

The fact that he is an 18th level Egoist has nothing much to do with his archery prowess beyond dispelling capabilities, Greater Metaphysical Weapon, and Metamorphosis—but it does leave him vast amounts of versatility and options beyond just slugging away with arrows. He knows next to zero damage-dealing powers, instead opting for powers that maximize his options and minimize his weaknesses.

Key items:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Bracers of Armor +8


Weaknesses:

:smallsigh: Windwall... His strong ML, however, means he has a good chance to dispel such irksome effects (if Psionic/magic transparency is in effect). His AC is surprisingly... unimpressive for a nimble, DEX-based character, and his attack bonus is also a touch on the low side. He can consistently hit mid-40s on his initial shot with minimal temporary tweaks, but his larger salvos drop steeply.

He has no great fear of melee, unlike other archers, as was stated—he has a huge CON score without any magical alterations—33 without any items/powers while in Arrow Demon form, and he threatens a huge reach with his bows as though they were melee weapons.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-11, 07:54 PM
Name: Thor the Goliath
Build: Goliath Warblade 10/Bloodstorm Blade 10 //Fighter 16/Exotic Weapon Master 3
Starting Ability Scores: STR 21, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 2
Power Break: Strong from day 1.

{table]Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat | Ability
Warblade| Level Adjustment| Point Blank Shot|Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude
Warblade| Fighter| | Uncanny Dodge, Bonus Feat (Exotic Wpn. Prof [Goliath Greathammer])
Warblade| Fighter | Combat Expertise | Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation), Bonus Feat (Weapon Focus [Goliath Greathammer])
Warblade| Fighter | |
Warblade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Improved Sunder), Bonus Feat (Improved Initiative)
Warblade | Fighter | Weapon Spec (Goliath Greathammer) | Improved Uncanny Dodge
Warblade | Fighter | | Battle Cunning (Damage), Greater Weapon Specialization (Goliath Greathammer)
Warblade | Exotic Weapon Master | | Weapon Stunt – Exotic Sunder
Warblade | Exotic Weapon Master | Improved Trip | Weapon Stunt – Uncanny Blow, Bonus Feat (Quick Draw)
Warblade | Exotic Weapon Master | | Weapon Stunt – Trip Attack
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | Power Attack | Bonus Feat (Combat Brute), Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Improved Bull Rush)
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Shock Trooper), Lightning Ricochet
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | Leap Attack | Blood Wind Ricochet
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Exotic Armor Proficiency [Mountain Plate]), Bonus Feat (Greater Weapon Focus [Goliath Greathammer])
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Eye of the Storm
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | Improved Critical (Goliath Greathammer) | Bonus Feat (Power Critical), Blood Rain
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Heavy Armor Optimization)
Bloodstorm Blade | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Greater Heavy Armor Optimization), Blade Storm
[/table]

Offense: +20 BAB. Large Greathammer (+2/3d6+2 with wpn focus/spec). 26 STR after level adjustments, add in +6 from Items and a +4 tome, we're looking at 36 STR (+13). So a full attack will be +35/+30/+25/+20 at 3d6+15; not including magical weapon properties or power attack. All attacks can be made at range or melee, huge power attack numbers by combining Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Power Attack. Can also perform Sunders and Trips at range, leading to using Blade Storm to Sunder, Trip and Attack -everyone- within range. 19-20 Crit range, +5 on confirmation rolls. 10th level warblade manuevers and stances.

Defense: 20d12+40 hit points. Mountain Plate with Optimization/Greater Optimization is a +12 Armor Bonus before adding in magic items. Improved Uncanny Dodge keeps the flanks and flat-footedness away.

Weaknesses: Not very mobile on the battlefield. Low will save. Touch Attacks will hurt.

Overall: I would play it in a heartbeat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-11, 08:11 PM
Yanno, most of the Invocation Vocation builds would probably do as well here. I mean, the binder/whatever-cheeze-to-mitigate-con-damage//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock build will probably out-damage just about any build here.

playswithfire
2008-03-11, 09:47 PM
In progress, but a bit more there now




Name: Grand Slam
Goliath Were Dire Bat
Starting Stats: 18 STR, 14 DEX, 17 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
Final Stats (hybrid; pre-gear): 24 STR, 28 DEX, 24 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
LA/Fighter feat: Great Fortitude
Lycanthrope Bonus: Iron Will
fighter: power attack
flaw: Martial Study(Iron Heart)
LA/Fighter fighter: Improved Unarmed Strike
LA/Warblade feat:Point Blank Shot
LA/Warblade
Warblade/Fist of the Forest
Dire Bat/Bloodstorm Blade feat:Exotic Weapon Proficency(Orc Shotput)
Dire Bat/Bloodstorm Blade
Dire Bat/Bloodstorm Blade fighter: Precise Shot
Dire Bat/Bloodstorm Blade feat:Weapon Focus(Orc Shotput)
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade Fighter: Weapon Specialization(Orc Shotput)
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade feat
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade Fighter: Ranged Weapon Master(bludgeoning)
Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade feat
Warblade/Master Thrower bonus: Quick Draw
trick: Trip Shot
Warblade/Master Thrower
Warblade/Master Thrower feat
tricK: Defensive Throw
Warblade/Master Thrower bonus: Snatch Arrows
Warblade/Master Thrower bonus: Improved Critical(Orc Shotput)
trick: Weak Spot



Actually, scratch that

{table=head]Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | Saves | Feats etc

Wu jen | Warblade | 1 | 2/0/2 | later
Wu jen | Warblade | 2 | 3/0/3 | later
Wu jen | Warblade | 3 | 3/1/3 | later
Wu jen | Warblade | 4 | 4/1/4 | later
Wu jen | Warblade | 5 | 4/1/4 | later
Wu jen | Bloodstorm Blade | 6 | 5/2/5 | later
Wu jen | Bloodstorm Blade | 7 | 5/2/5 | later
Wu jen | Bloodstorm Blade | 8 | 6/2/6 | later
Wu jen | Bloodstorm Blade | 9 | 6/3/6 | later
Wu jen | Master Thrower | 10 | 6/5/7 | later
Wu jen | Master Thrower | 11 | 7/6/7 | later
Wu jen | Master Thrower | 12 | 7/6/8 | later
Wu jen | Master Thrower | 13 | 7/7/8 | later
Wu jen | Master Thrower | 14 | 8/7/9 | later
Wu jen | Master of the Unseen Hand | 15 | 8/7/9 | later
Wu jen | Master of the Unseen Hand | 16 | 9/8/10 | later
Wu jen | Master of the Unseen Hand | 17 | 9/8/10 | later
Wu jen | Master of the Unseen Hand | 18 | 9/8/11 | later
Wu jen | Master of the Unseen Hand | 19 | 10/9/11 | later
Wu jen | Something | ? | 10/9/11 | later
[/table]
Start of day, chain spell greater magic weapon onto 20ish harpoons that I carry around in my bag of holding/quiver of Ehlonna type object
Start of combat, drop harpoons to the ground.
First full round, chain spell telekinesis to telekinetically wield them all. Using telekinetic wielder to spread them out (that 20 feet of movement that provokes no AoO), then attack with each of them, hopefully having several stick in various opponents. The ones that don't will ricochet back to the unseen hands holding them.
Repeat the second part as needed, moving the harpoons around and throwing, hopefully sticking such that eventually enemies are trapped by multiple harpoons and have great difficulty moving without unsticking the harpoons themselves, taking a full round and more damage to do so.

Will format better later; and, you know, pick feats.

The Gilded Duke
2008-03-11, 10:59 PM
Rocks Fall; I'm Already Dead
Ghost Human LA 5 / Hulking Hurler 2/Sorcerer 12/Fighter 1//Warblade 10/Bloodstorm Blade 10
Original Stats: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10 , Wis 10 , Cha 18
Race Adjusted: Str 8, Dex 13. Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 24

Rock's Fall; I'm Already Dead
Tarrasque Form
Size/Type: Colossal Magical Beast
Hit Points: 858
Initiative:+3
Speed 20 Feet
Armor Class: 36 (-8 size, +3 Dex, +30 Natural, +1 Supremacy)
Base Attack: 20 / +55
Special Qualities: Carapace, Damage Reduction 15/epic, Immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +10, Will +12
Str 49(+19), Dex 16, Con 35, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 38
Medium Load: 358,272 pounds (1794d6)

Bloodstorm (Ex): As a full round action Rocks fall can make an attack against every target within range (180 feet), using his highest attack roll for each one. +44 Attack damage 1794d6+34. Can once per round take 10 on an attack, and can add +5 to any one attack per round. Uses one Iron Heart Maneuver.

Weapon Stats:

+1 Distance, Speed
358,272 pound Boulder (1794d6)
Range:180 Feet


Ghost Features:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm

Draining Touch (Su): Incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from one ability it selects.

Malevolence (Su):Magic Jar as 20th level caster, ignores spell resistance. DC 15+Charisma modifier.

Telekenisis as 20th level caster
Rejuvination
Turn resistance
+8 Hide, Listen, Search, Spot
Deflection bonus equal to Charisma Modifier
Fly speed of 30 feet


Class Abilities:

BAB +5 Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1 5d12 Hd
BAB +7 Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +2 7d12 HD
BAB +10 Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +5 10d12 HD
BAB +20 Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +12 20d12 HD

Warblade:
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
2 Bonus Feats
3 Stances Known
5 Maneuvers Readied
8 Maneuvers Known

Weapon Aptitude 8

Bloodstorm Blade:
Returning Attacks
Throw Anything
Weapon Aptitude 18
Martial Throw
Thunderous Blow
3 Bonus Fighter Feats
Lightning Ricochet
Blood Wind Richochet
Eye of the Storm
Blood Rain
Blade Storm

Hulking Hurler:
Catch Weapon
Really Throw Anything (25 Feet)
Overburdened Heave

Sorcerer Abilities:
6th level spells
12th Level Familiar


Feats:

1. Point Blank Shot
Human: Power Attack
3.Weapon Focus (Boulder)
Warblade: Improved Initiative
Warblade: Run
6:Weapon Specialization (Boulder)
9:Ranged Weapon Mastery (Boulder)
12:Greater Weapon Focus (Boulder)
15:Greater Weapon Specialization (Boulder)
18: Brutal Throw
3 Bloodstorm:
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
1 Fighter: Weapon Supremacy (Boulder)

+4 Disarm Resist
Wield in Grapple
Full attack in Grapple
+5 to any attack after first strike
Once per round treat d20 result as 10
+1 AC
+4 Attack
+6 Damage
Range +20



Stats:

Original Stats: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 10 , Wis 10 , Cha 18
Race Adjusted: Str 8, Dex 13. Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 24
Level Adjusted: Str 8, Dex 13, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 28
Cloak of Charisma: Str 8, Dex 13, Con -. Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 34
Tome of Leadership and Influence: Str 8, Dex 13, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 38



Getting a body:

For this we are going to assume Rocks Fall is trying to get one of the toughest bodies in the game, the Tarrasque.

The Tarrasque has a Will Save of +20 and 14 Wisdom.
The Tarrasque is not immune to ability drain.
Rocks Fall uses Draining Touch multiple times to drain the Tarrasque's Wisdom to 0
The Tarrasque's Will Save is now +13
The DC of Rock's Malevolence is 33
The Tarrasque has to roll a 20 to resist possession.

avr
2008-03-11, 11:20 PM
Name: Ghost of a Chance
Classes: Half Giant Psychic Warrior 6 / Slayer 4 / Psychic Warrior +10 // LA +1 / Egoist 9 / Psion Uncarnate 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 8
Minimum Playable Level: 2
Power Break: 12 - shed body class feature, or 16 when she gets the Fission power

Half Giant (Favoured class Psychic Warrior, powerful build etc)
{table]Level|Side 1|Side 2|Class Features
1|Psychic Warrior 1|LA +1
2|Psychic Warrior 2|Egoist 1
3|Psychic Warrior 3|Egoist 2
4|Psychic Warrior 4|Egoist 3
5|Psychic Warrior 5|Egoist 4
6|Psychic Warrior 6|Egoist 5
7|Slayer 1|Egoist 6|Favoured enemy +2, enemy sense
8|Slayer 2|Egoist 7|Brain nausea
9|Slayer 3|Egoist 8|Lucid buffer
10|Slayer 4|Egoist 9|Favored enemy +4
11|Psychic Warrior 7|Psion Uncarnate 1|Incorporeal touch 1d6, uncarnate armor
12|Psychic Warrior 8|Psion Uncarnate 2|Shed body 1/day
13|Psychic Warrior 9|Psion Uncarnate 3|Assume equipment
14|Psychic Warrior 10|Psion Uncarnate 4|Assume likeness
15|Psychic Warrior 11|Psion Uncarnate 5|Incorporeal touch 2d6
16|Psychic Warrior 12|Psion Uncarnate 6|Shed body 2/day
17|Psychic Warrior 13|Psion Uncarnate 7|Telekinetic force
18|Psychic Warrior 14|Psion Uncarnate 8|Uncarnate bridge
19|Psychic Warrior 15|Psion Uncarnate 9|Incorporeal touch 3d6
20|Psychic Warrior 16|Psion Uncarnate 10|Uncarnate[/table]

Feats
{table]Level|Base|Psychic Warrior|Egoist
1|Point Blank Shot|Precise Shot
2||Psicrystal Affinity|Psionic Shot
3|Zen Archery
5||Psicrystal Containment
6|Track||Psionic Meditation
9|Greater Psionic Shot
12|Far Shot|Weapon Focus
15|Improved Critical|Ghost Attack
18|Stand Still|Unconditional Power[/table]

Offensive: Projectile weapons deal damage based on the size of the weapon propelling them, which works nicely with Expansion and powerful build. Arguably this may deal to Wind Wall, which is less effective against siege weapons – and a ballista is just a Huge crossbow. Shed body makes all her attacks bypass armour, natural armour and shield AC bonuses for a minute a day (2 at level 16, unlimited at level 20); Fission effectively doubles her attacks. BAB is +16 at level 20.

Defensive: Turning incorporeal via shed body is useful defensively as well. She can wear heavy armour, which is still effective while incorporeal due to the uncarnate armour class feature. Many psychic warrior powers are useful in defence – does anyone really need a list of them? The Stand Still feat (& the Prowess power) can be useful with armour spikes when expanded to elbow unwanted meleers away, it’s a shame I couldn’t fit it in earlier.

Weaknesses: Poor reflex save, a shortage of power points (still better than a non-gestalt psychic warrior), no chance of rapid shot/manyshot/fell shot etc due to low DEX.

Nermy
2008-03-11, 11:31 PM
Name: Swift Kinurra
Build: Strongheart Halfling Martial Monk (Dr 310) 11 / Ninja 9 // Sneak-Attack Fighter (UnA) 10 / Whisperknife (RotW) 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 8
Final Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 22, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: Any time extra attacks are gained, she becomes deadlier: lvl 6, 9, 11, 16

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Abilities
Strongheart Halfling | | | Weapon Finesse | Strongheart Halfling Traits
1 | Monk 1 // Fighter 1 | Two-Weapon Fighting | Ascetic Stalker, Improved Unarmed Strike | Monk AC bonus, Unarmed Strike damage, and Speed Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Sneak Attack +1d6
2 | Monk 1 / Ninja 1 // Fighter 2 | | | Ki Power, Sudden Strike +1d6
3 | Monk 2 / Ninja 1 // Fighter 3 | Quick Draw | Point-Blank Shot | Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
4 | Monk 2 / Ninja 2 // Fighter 4 | | | Ghost Step (Invisible)
5 | Monk 3 / Ninja 2 // Fighter 5 | | | Still Mind, Sneak Attack +3d6
6 | Monk 3 / Ninja 3 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 1 | Improved Two-Weapon Fighting | Rapidshot | Uncanny Dodge, Sudden Strike +2d6, Poison Use
7 | Monk 4 / Ninja 3 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 2 | | | Ki Strike (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Sneak Attack +4d6
8 | Monk 4 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 3 | | | Great Leap, Defensive Throw, Improved Catch
9 | Monk 5 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 4 | Weapon Specialization (Shuriken) | | Purity of Body, Close Defense
10 | Monk 6 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 5 | | Weapon Focus (Shuriken) | Slow Fall 30ft, Sneak Attack +5d6
11 | Monk 7 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 6 | | | Wholeness of Body, Fast Movement (+10ft)
12 | Monk 8 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 7 | Greater Two-Weapon Fighting | | Slow Fall (40ft), Vengeful Strike 1/day
13 | Monk 9 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 8 | | | Improved Evasion, Superior Catch, Sneak Attack +6d6
14 | Monk 10 / Ninja 4 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 9 | | | Ki Strike (Lawful), Slow Fall (50ft), Improved Uncanny Dodge, Ranged Flank
15 | Monk 10 / Ninja 5 // Fighter 5 / Whisperknife 10 | Ranged Weapon Mastery - Piercing | | Sudden Strike +3d6, Vengeful Strike 3/day
16 | Monk 11 / Ninja 5 // Fighter 6 / Whisperknife 10 | | | Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
17 | Monk 11 / Ninja 6 // Fighter 7 / Whisperknife 10 | | | Acrobatics +2, Ki Dodge, Sneak Attack +7d6
18 | Monk 11 / Ninja 7 // Fighter 8 / Whisperknife 10 | FEAT | | Sudden Strike +4d6, Speed Climb
19 | Monk 11 / Ninja 8 // Fighter 9 / Whisperknife 10 | | | Ghost Strike, Sneak Attack +8d6
20 | Monk 11 / Ninja 9 // Fighter 10 / Whisperknife 10 | | | Sudden Strike +5d6, Improved Poison Use
[/table]

Offense

Generally tends to use shurikens to deal precision damage along by denying opponent's dex bonus to AC through means such as Ghost Step, magic items, or the hide skill. Since shurikens are flurryable weapons, at level 20 with greater two-weapon fighting, Kinurra has 9 attacks with a full attack for +13d6 if an opponent is denied dex bonus, or +8d6 if flanked (thanks to Whisperknife's class feature).

If somehow found without shurikens, Kinurra can resort to unarmed strikes, as she has full damage progression thanks to Ascetic Stalker.

Defense

Generally tries to stay out of melee combat for the most part, but has to stay within 10 ft until Ranged Weapon Mastery is obtained or when she needs to flank. High dexterity, moderate wisdom, and monk AC gives a good bonus to AC, boosted by magic items and friendly wizard buffs. Very fast movement allows Kinurra to retreat if necessary.

Monk save progression as well as prestige class / multiclassing provides good saves for the most part. Improved evasion helps too.

Weaknesses

Anything that is immune to precision damage will give Kinurra a hard time. Without UMD as a class skill to cast the *strike spells, Kinurra is kind of SOL.

Chronos
2008-03-11, 11:50 PM
Ghost Human LA 5 / Hulking Hurler 2/Sorcerer 13//Warblade 10/Bloodstorm Blade 10Doesn't Hulking Hurler require large size? That might be tough to get at level 5.

The Gilded Duke
2008-03-12, 12:00 AM
Doesn't Hulking Hurler require large size? That might be tough to get at level 5.

Possess an Ogre.

dspeyer
2008-03-12, 12:40 AM
Name: Morrigan
Slogan: Who needs weapons?
Build: Pixie (la 4) / Rogue 16 // Warlock 20
Playable from: 5 (if pixies don't have class levels, they have a racial hit die)
Cheese: Violates an "always" alignment by one step (CG instead of NG).
Starting abilities (with racial adjustments): STR: 6 DEX: 24 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 12 CHA: 22
Strategy:
Eldritch blast
Greater invisibility
Sneak attack
Fly speed (60 ft, good)

By level 5 (first playable), Morrigan makes ranged attacks at +11 (3 bab, 7 dex, 1 size). Eldritch blast makes them touch attacks, and greater invisibility makes enemies flat footed. It takes either uncanny dodge or an awfully large deflection bonus to even have a possibility of missing except on a nat 1, and those can often be negated with earthen grasp and dispel magic (pixie SLA). Spell resistance could be a problem before vitrolic blast kicks in, but how many monsters below CR 11 have serious SR?

Roughly d6/level (eldritch+sneak), never runs out, almost can't miss. What more could you want?

I haven't even discussed other invocations, skills (10/level), rogue, warlock and pixie special abilities (they all get pretty cool ones), feats or equipment.

Duke of URL
2008-03-12, 06:32 AM
Yanno, most of the Invocation Vocation builds would probably do as well here. I mean, the binder/whatever-cheeze-to-mitigate-con-damage//Warlock/Hellfire Warlock build will probably out-damage just about any build here.

This challenge is specifically for ranged weapons, not just ranged attacks.

Fitz
2008-03-12, 07:35 AM
Ok my first go at one of these so sorry if it isn't fully done

but was thinking a Fighter5/Orderof the bow initiate10/Rogue5 with Cleric 20 Elf and War domains
Pump Dex Wis and Str.
needs a good bow (high str mod), but gets lots of ranged attacks, cleric spells with DMM quicken/persist if needed. Some Sneak attack, all the ranged feats you could need. plus OOTBI special attacks.

probably not that good compared to some of the others, but definitly playable from level 1, gets some big boosts as it gets to higher levels of cleric and OOTBI at the same time.
downsides: doesn't get some of the good low level divination wizard spells, and needs to get to level 9 for the clerical Dex boost (though +10 is very good)

Fitz

SamTheCleric
2008-03-12, 07:50 AM
This challenge is specifically for ranged weapons, not just ranged attacks.

Does that disqualify Thor who uses a Greathammer as a thrown weapon?

Duke of URL
2008-03-12, 07:56 AM
Does that disqualify Thor who uses a Greathammer as a thrown weapon?

It's still a weapon, isn't it? (In short: Throwing weapons are OK; rays are not)

SamTheCleric
2008-03-12, 07:59 AM
Ok :) I just wanted to make sure the focus was on Weapons not specifically Ranged Weapons...

Though... I just had an idea for a pirate with a harpoon... I may have two entries in this contest :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-12, 09:11 AM
Name: Gat Ling
Race: Halfling (Core)
Stats (Base): Str 8, Dex 17, Con 10, Wis 14, Int 11, Cha 12
Stats (Final) Str 6, Dex 24, Con 10, Wis 14, Int 11, Cha 12
BuildMonk11/Swordsage2/Rogue7//Warblade5/Bloodstormblade4/Master Thrower 5/Sorcerer1
Cheeze Points: 1 for Multiclassing Penalties
Necessary Gear Just a couple of mundane Sai's are all that are necessary, although other gear makes it much more useful, such as the gem attachment thingy that lets him sneak attack undead

Concept: Whole lot of Sai's being thrown. With Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Richochet, he gets to make a full attack with his two Sai. Thanks to Palm Toss, he gets to make double his normal thrown attacks, and Sneaky Shot makes them all flat-footed, and because of Weak Spot, they're all touch attacks. He also picks up Golemstrike from the Sorcerer list because a lot of his damage is precision-based. Even better, the Sai is both a Shadow Hand favored weapon AND a monk weapon, AND can be thrown, so when he gets into Assassin's Stance, his Shadow Blade feat lets him add his Dex mod to damage, meaning Strength is a dump stat.

Okay, so we got 14 thrown attacks with Sai a turn (rapid shot + Monk Flurry) being cranked out, with +6d6 sneak attack each, plus Dex mod to damage

Talic
2008-03-12, 10:49 AM
Entry:Tauric Cheddar
Cheese Points: 0 (technically), or 8 (please turn that sideways)
Earliest playable level: 4 (assuming your DM is dumb)
Power Break: 87 Strength at level 4. 58 Dex. 60 Con. As many special qualities as 15% of the lower planes combined. This equates to, at level 4... +100 hp (con). +38 strength mod (it's like a true strike in every box, especially since he ignores miss chance from concealment). +24 AC from Dex (on top of the +25 natural armor and +15-30 in insight and circumstance bonuses). Oh, and flight.

Further, level 10 gives him the uber throw. Until then, be the nigh unkillable tank.

Level 15 lets him expansion as a swift action to gargantuan. (level 9 lets him as a standard action, or a swift action to huge).


On One side of the Tauric Template:
Mommy: Human. (per PHb)
On the other:
Daddy:Shadow/Paragon/Half Celestial/Half Dragon/Half Earth Elemental/Pseudonatural/Unicorn of Legend (Magical Beast)

No Tijuana jokes, please. He's sensitive.

Daddy's modifiers:
HD 4d8, Quadruped, Large.

Base Stats:
Str 78, Dex 50, Con 62, Wis 52, Cha 48

Final Blend:

Type: Monstrous Humanoid
Size: Large, Quadruped
HD: 4d8
AC: Not calculating, +25 or higher
Attacks and damage: Not calculating, not important to challenge
Special attacks: Not calculating, too many to list without receiving college credit for the thesis.
Special Qualities: See above.
Saves: Not Calculating, +10 insight, and more
Abilities: Str +68, Dex +50, Con +52
Skills: Not calculating.
Feats: 2
LA: As base humanoid +3 (or +3)

Level Breakdown
Tauric Racial HD / ECL
Tauric Racial HD / ECL
Tauric Racial HD / ECL
Tauric Racial HD / Ranger 1
PsyWar 1 / Ranger 2
Psywar 2 / Ranger 3
Psywar 3 / Ranger 4
Psywar 4 / Ranger 5
Hulking Hurler 1 / Ranger 6
Hulking Hurler 2 / Ranger 7
Hulking Hurler 3 / Ranger 8
Psywar 5 / Ranger 9
Psywar 6 / Ranger 10
Psywar 7 / Ranger 11
Psywar 8 / Ranger 12
Psywar 9 / Ranger 13
Bloodstorm Blade 1 / Ranger 14
Bloodstorm Blade 2 / Ranger 15
Bloodstorm Blade 3 / Ranger 16
Bloodstorm Blade 4 / Ranger 17

Feats needed: Point blank shot, Far shot, Power attack, Weapon focus (javelin), Practiced Manifester (Psywar), Natural Heavyweight (Planar Handbook).

Base Stats: Str 18, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Final Stats: Str 86, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Attribute boosts into Str, +5 book into Str.
Stats at level 20: Str 96, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Hulking hurler abilities: Area Attack, Overburdened heave.

Psywar Ability needed: Expansion

Swift Action: Expansion to Gargantuan Size. (+4 Str) Str = 100.

Medium load is 266 (str 20) x4 x4 x4 x4 x4 x4 x4 x4 = 17432576, x2 (natural heavyweight) x12 (gargantuan Quadruped) = 418,381,824 lb medium load. As gargantuan, you can throw objects up to 2 size categories larger than you, so long as they do not exeed this weight. Size categories do not progress more than 1 size category larger than you, thus, you can lift and throw any object up to this weight.

Range increment, per hulking hurler, is 25 feet, x2 (far shot) = 50 feet. Max range is 250 feet, Damage is based on weight from Complete Warrior.

Assuming Sharp object (counts as weight x2, or 836,763,648 lbs). Rounding off the last 48 pounds, and removing 400 pounds for the first 5d6 damage, the total damage for the hit is: 4,183,821D6+str, for an average rolled damage of: 14,643,418.5. Damage. Plus the 30 or so from some of those templates up there, but after FOURTEEN MILLION DAMAGE, I think it's academic, Martial Study, Martial Stance.

Oh, and he hides in plain sight, and has a dex mod of +24. And can be immune to polymorph and mind affecting effects.
And has roughly 80% of wealth available for mobility/defense items.
And still has over half his feats and powers available.

Gentlemen, may I have my cheese award?

EDIT: Oh, for distance attacks, take +1 Javelins of Distance and Returning. 3D6+1 base damage, +45 Str, at a range of 450 feet (30 (x2 far shot x2 distance = x3) = 90 x 5 (max range increment at a whoppin' -10 to hit) = 450 feet. 56.5 damage per throw, get 4, so you can be a mobile SAM battery too.

EDITEDIT: Added in another level 20 Capstone. While not action on Aura of courage (min initiator level 11), I did notice Bloodstorm blade has remarkably easy entry requirements. Now, at level 20, he gains hide in plain sight, and a full attack with his RoD (Rock of Doom). Average damage at level 20 is now 58 million or so.

For the sources used that were printed during 3.0, wizards released updates to the website which update them to 3.5 legal. That's the main reason I didn't go a few less levels of Psywar, a few more levels of rogue, shadowdancer, and yoink out most of the ranger for War hulk. Miniatures handbook was, sadly, not updated.

EDITEDITEDIT: Add in a belt of +6 Str. The multiplier for weight is 1,572,864. With an extra +6, the initial weight goes up to 613. Factor in the multiplier, and you have an load limit of 964,165,632. Factor in sharp object again, and you have 1,928,331,264 lb.

Round down, factor in first 400 pounds, and you have 9,641,659d6+67 (str) +bonuses and stuff. Average damage? 33,745,873.5, not counting bonuses per hit.

Full attack at level 20? 134,983,494 average damage a round, in 4 lovely chunks. Bear in mind, that the object he's chucking is 482,000 tons, which puts it as heavier than the Empire state building. We're affecting more than one square with that area throw. Fo Sho.

Oh, it might not kill a tarrasque. But it will put it into happy knockout land for around... Let's see, factor in the DR, as this attack isn't epic (yeah, right), ummm... around 234.33 days. In one round of full attack.

EDIT: Oh my god, it's an evil superman. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to make tall buildings leap in a single round. Oh, and note. Nearly complete magic item independence. Can do 50+ mil damage, in a dead magic zone, with a 50+ modifier to hide (30+ when sniping for good cheese.) Oh, and hide in plain sight... as an Ex ability.

Eldariel
2008-03-12, 10:52 AM
Are we limited to one submission per person? No such limitation appeared in the opening post. Having played Archers for much of my career, I've got at least 3 builds I'd like to submit.

Also, isn't Polymorph considered cheese?

Annarrkkii
2008-03-12, 11:05 AM
Are we limited to one submission per person? No such limitation appeared in the opening post. Having played Archers for much of my career, I've got at least 3 builds I'd like to submit.

Also, isn't Polymorph considered cheese?

It most certainly is. I'm using metamorphosis, however :P. Nah, I expect to be punished for my shapechanging, but still—it's all in good fun. I had an ever MORE borked options available using oldschool polymorph cheese, which used Master Transmogrofist, Warshaper, Arcane Archer, and some other gleeful stuff—but I scratched that and went with a slightly more reasonable variation, since the "can change to something of your own type" clause has been errata-ed out of polymorph.

And we've been allowed multiple entries in all the past threads, so I say go ahead and post the rest of yours. I've been really looking forward to this thread, since I'm looking for some options to optimize an archer I'll soon be piecing together.

Hell V
2008-03-12, 11:58 AM
Name: Gurk
Build:Half-Dragon Half-Fiend Half-Iron Golem Orc Barbarian 5 Fighter 4 Frenzied Berserker 10 // LA 12 Cleric 9

Starting Ability Scores: STR 46 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 6 WIS 17 CHA 4
Cheese Points: 1 or 3 - Unbalanced multiclass
Minimum Playable Level: 13

Power Break: I'm not sure, maybe not any...

Barbarian/LA Intimidating Rage
Barbarian/LA
Barbarian/LA Destructive Rage
Barbarian/LA
Fighter/LA Power Attack
Fighter/LA Cleave, Brutal Throw
Frenzied Berserker/LA
FB/LA
FB/LA Power Throw
FB/LA
Cleric/LA
FB/LA Leap Attack
FB/Cleric
FB/Cleric
FB/Cleric Improved Bull Rush
FB/Cleric
Fighter/Cleric
Fighter/Cleric Shock Trooper, Quick Draw
Barbarian/Cleric
Barbarian/Cleric

So, the trick is: Righteous Might (+8 strenght); Divine Power (+6 STR); 5 level increases, +5 inherent bonus from book, Frenzy (+10 STR)
That means your strenght score is 70 (+30 modifier)

Your +5 distance returning Javelin can be leap-attack/shocktrooper powerthrown for attack +55 and damage 1d8 + 95

Or make a full thrown attack starting with the +5 javelin then using 3 +1 javelins for:

+55/+46/+41/+36 and potential damage 4d8 + 128 per round... Not throwing mountains around. You can use Power Attack to reduce attack by 20 and raise each attack's damage by 40, meaning 4d8 + 268 . . .

You can still mention that you have good Con, mostly d12 for hit dice and cleric casting, wich means that you're never in trouble... And has a nice Will save for getting out of that Frenzy when spellcasting becomes a need...

Chronos
2008-03-12, 12:36 PM
Gentlemen, may I have my cheese award?All I can say is, if anyone can top that, I'd like to see it.

Talic
2008-03-12, 01:08 PM
All I can say is, if anyone can top that, I'd like to see it.

Did I mention he can attack your square for 14 million damage at AC 10? If he goes that route, you get a reflex save for half. I believe the DC = the attack roll made.

At level 21, he qualifies for the epic Feat Distant shot, which changes his range increment to: LOS.

I really love how carrying capacity is one of the few areas in D&D that x2 and x2 = x4. Hooray, exponential growth.

I could have made it higher, there's a few more templates I could have cheesed in, but it was already giving me a headache, calculating his resistances, immunities, special attacks, etc etc. Could've poked in the belt of strength +6, but really, again, academic. It'd have been a few thousand more damage, which isn't that much, comparatively.

To give an idea of this carrying capacity for medium load, it's a bit over 209,000 tons. By comparison, a modern US carrier (Nimitz class) is about 100,000 tons. Just for an idea of what this guy is chuckin.

While he can't throw it, the Empire State Building's 370,000 tons is still in range for him to pick up and carry around with him.

Draz74
2008-03-12, 01:16 PM
All I can say is, if anyone can top that, I'd like to see it.

*Thanks NEO|Phyte for an extremely helpful, if obvious, tip*

Here goes. For the first time in these contests, I've resorted to real cheese.

Name: David is SO Ready for Goliath
Build: Pixie Crusader 13 / Psychic Warrior 2 / Master Thrower 5 // LA +4 / Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 / Cleric 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 24, INT 14, WIS 18, CHA 20
Minimum Playable Level: 4
Cheese Points: Lots. 5+x, where "x" is the number that infinite loops are worth.
Power Break: Level 11, where the infinite damage trick comes in.

Level 1: Crusader 1 // LA +1
Level 2: Crusader 2 // LA +2
Level 3: Crusader 3 // LA +3
Level 4: Crusader 4 // LA +4
Level 5: Crusader 5 // Warblade 1
Level 6: Crusader 6 // Bloodstorm Blade 1
Level 7: Crusader 7 // Bloodstorm Blade 2
Level 8: Crusader 8 // Bloodstorm Blade 3
Level 9: Crusader 9 // Cleric 1 - {Luck Domain, Time Domain}
Level 10: Crusader 10 // Cleric 2
Level 11: Crusader 11 // Cleric 3
Level 12: Psychic Warrior 1 // Bloodstorm Blade 4
Level 13: Psychic Warrior 2 // Bloodstorm Blade 5
Level 14: Master Thrower 1 // Cleric 4
Level 15: Master Thrower 2 // Cleric 5
Level 16: Master Thrower 3 // Cleric 6
Level 17: Master Thrower 4 // Cleric 7
Level 18: Master Thrower 5 // Cleric 8
Level 19: Crusader 12 // Cleric 9
Level 20: Crusader 13 // Cleric 10

Feats
Flaws:
L1: Point Blank Shot
L1: Precise Shot
L1: Two-Weapon Fighting
L3: Rapid Shot
L6: Far Shot
L8 BB: Weapon Focus (Dart)
L9: Imbued Healing (Luck)
L9 C: Extend Spell
L12: Persist Spell
L12 PW: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
L13 PW: Improved Precise Shot
L15: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
L18: Quicken Spell

Idea
"Because 14 million damage just isn't enough ... not nearly enough."

Fly around invisibly. You are a stealthy assassin character. Find your target.

Cast a cure spell (quickened at high levels). Use Imbued Healing (luck). For a round or three, you treat all rolled 1's as 2's on damage.

Assume Stance: Aura of Chaos.

Throw as many as 14 darts. But don't bother throwing more than one at any target. That's right, you're an assassin who hits 14 targets in one round. 16, if you're hasted.

You have incredible DEX and your attacks are touch attacks. They hit.

Each one does damage equal to Pun-Pun's Strength score. (Roll 1d2 ... if it's a one, it's considered a 2 ... if it's a 2, roll again and add damage cumulatively.)

At high levels, DMMPersist a Divine Favor spell, just to make it even cheesier.

Basically, the only problem with this build is that it can't actually use a sling instead of a thrown weapon (to make the David vs. Goliath parallel stronger). Meh. Find a rock that's the right size to deal 1d2 damage, and throw that instead. :smallamused:

NEO|Phyte
2008-03-12, 01:20 PM
*Wishes that Aura of Chaos didn't specify melee attacks*

*cough* 2 levels of Bloodstorm Blade can fix that up.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-12, 01:26 PM
When I think 'God of Ranged Combat', I think Legolas. Ergo...

I'm assuming Swift Hunter would be okay, since both the scout and ranger are on the same side of the build? This is a scout/ranger build on one side, and Alastar's 'Gatling Bowgun' idea on the other.

Still needs some work: you could probably cut down the fighter to get Time Stands Still and Island in Time earlier, and they're when things get crazy.

Name: Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun
Build: Scout 5 / Ranger 15 // Fighter 4 / Warblade 6 / Eternal Blade 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8, DEX 16 (+2 Racial), CON 12 (-2 Racial), INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: None in particular

{table]Level | Classes | Feat | Bonus Feat(s) | Abilities
Elf | | | |
1 | Ranger 1 // Fighter 1 | Point Blank | Precise Shot, Track | 1d6 Skirmish, Favored Enemy 1
2 | Ranger 2 // Fighter 2 | Rapid Shot | Far Shot | 1d6/+1 Skirmish
3 | Scout 1 // Fighter 3 | Swift Tracker | Endurance | Fast Movement (10), Battle Fortitude
4 | Ranger 3 // Fighter 4 | | Ranged Pin (or whatever) |
5 | Ranger 4 // Warblade 1 | | | 2d6/+1 Skirmish, Favored Enemy 2, Animal Companion
6 | Ranger 5 // Warblade 2 | Woodland Archery | |
7 | Ranger 6 // Warblade 3 | Manyshot | | 2d6/+2 Skirmish
8 | Scout 2 // Warblade 4 | | |
9 | Scout 3 // Warblade 5 | Greater Manyshot | Quickdraw | 3d6/+2 Skirmish, Trapfinding
10 | Scout 4 // Warblade 6 | Shot on the Run | | Favored Enemy 3
11 | Scout 5 // Eternal Blade 1 | | | 3d6/+3 Skirmish, Eternal Training 1/day, Evasion
12 | Ranger 7 // Eternal Blade 2 | Imp Critical (Bow) | | Guided Strike
13 | Ranger 8 // Eternal Blade 3 | | | 4d6/+3 Skirmish, Eternal Training 2/day
14 | Ranger 9 // Eternal Blade 4 | | | Eternal Knowledge
15 | Ranger 10 // Eternal Blade 5 | (Open Feat) | | Favored Enemy 4, 4d6/+4 Skirmish, Eternal Training 3/day
16 | Ranger 11 // Eternal Blade 6 | Imp Precise Shot | | Defensive Insight
17 | Ranger 12 // Eternal Blade 7 | | | 5d6/+4 Skirmish, Eternal Training 4/day
18 | Ranger 13 // Eternal Blade 8 | (Open Feat) | | Tactical Insight, Camouflage
19 | Ranger 14 // Eternal Blade 9 | | | 5d6/+5 Skirmish, Eternal Training 5/day
20 | Ranger 15 // Eternal Blade 10 | | | Favored Enemy 5, Island in Time
[/table]

Offense

I like to get a Splitting Exploding Knockback bow, Splitting because it is the best ranged enchantment ever, and the other two just because it seems very neat to hit a guy with an arrow and watch him explode and fly backwards, where you can then Ranged Pin him to the wall and have your way with him.

Defense

Good HP, Evasion, Camouflage, Uncanny Dodge and Imp Canny Dodge, two good saves (3 if you snag the correct Diamond Mind maneuver)

Special

Pick Favored Enemies you normally couldn’t use Skirmish damage on: undead, constructs, and so on. Swift Hunter will let you hit them with Skirmish. Move and shoot, then repeat.

At 19, get the Time Stands Still maneuver and double your number of attacks in a round.

At 20, Island in Time nets you another turn once per encounter. You know the drill: fire another 5-15 arrows at people.

Chronos
2008-03-12, 02:54 PM
Could've poked in the belt of strength +6, but really, again, academic. It'd have been a few thousand more damage, which isn't that much, comparatively.How easily people underestimate exponential growths. An extra +6 to your strength wouldn't add a few thousand more damage; it'd add millions more dice. Every increase of five points of strength is a doubling of carrying capacity, and hence a doubling of Hurler damage. So +6 from a belt would more than double your output.

Talic
2008-03-12, 03:08 PM
Entry 2!
Entry Name: Potshot
Minimum Playable: 1
Power break: Level 10 gets the ability to snipe with a -6. Level 12 gives double move with snipe.

Halfling Necropolitan (Augmented Undead):

Str 10
Dex 36
Con -
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Necropolitan (lose 1 level)
Ninja 1/Rogue 1 (racial Sub) Darkstalker, Dodge
Ninja 2/Rogue 2
Ninja 3/Rogue 3 (racial sub) Mobility
Ninja 4/Rogue 4
Ninja 5/Rogue 5
Ninja 6/Rogue 6 Able Sniper
Ninja 7/Rogue 7
Ninja 8/Rogue 8
Ninja 9/Rogue 9 Combat reflexes
Ninja 10/Rogue 10 (racial Sub)
Ninja 11/Assassin 1
Ninja 12/Shadowdancer 1 Woodland Archer.
Ninja 13/Dread Commando 1
Ninja 14/Dread Commando 2
Ninja 15/Dread Commando 3 Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)
Ninja 16/Dread Commando 4
Ninja 17/Rogue 11
Ninja 18/Rogue 12
Ninja 19/Rogue 13


Feats: Darkstalker, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Able Sniper, Woodland Archer, Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)

Ranged Sneak Attack: +8d6
Melee Sneak Attack: +6d6
Thief's Luck (reroll reflex)
Sniping Mastery (snipe -10)

Sudden Strike: +10d6

Equipment: Padded Armor +1, Greater silent moves, Greater Shadow

Hide check +58
Hide check after sniping +52
Can Hide as a snipe as a free action.
If successful sniping, next round, can also move.
Can hide in plain sight, while being observed.
Thus, can perform a double move and snipe every round, with a +52 to hide.

Attack with sling+1, Distance, Range 1000 feet. Damage 1d3+10d6+8d6+1

Cannot be tracked by anything covered by Darkstalker, as well as lifesense and mindsense. Good evasion, meh damage, but is REALLY hard to nail down, with added invisibility to cap it out.

Talic
2008-03-12, 03:28 PM
How easily people underestimate exponential growths. An extra +6 to your strength wouldn't add a few thousand more damage; it'd add millions more dice. Every increase of five points of strength is a doubling of carrying capacity, and hence a doubling of Hurler damage. So +6 from a belt would more than double your output.

Meh, the build can already ping 4 targets a round within 250 feet for 14.8 million damage. The multiplier for weight is 1,572,864. With an extra +6, the initial weight goes up to 613. Factor in the multiplier, and you have an load limit of 964,165,632. Factor in sharp object again, and you have 1,928,331,264 lb.

Round down, factor in first 400 pounds, and you have 9,641,659d6+67 (str) +bonuses and stuff. Average damage? 33,745,873.5, not counting bonuses per hit.

Full attack at level 20? 134,983,494 average damage a round, in 4 lovely chunks. Bear in mind, that the object he's chucking is 482,000 tons, which puts it as heavier than the Empire state building. We're affecting more than one square with that area throw. Fo Sho.

Oh, it might not kill a tarrasque. But it will put it into happy knockout land for around... Let's see, factor in the DR, as this attack isn't epic (yeah, right), ummm... around 234.33 days. In one round of full attack.

EDIT: Oh my god, it's an evil superman. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to make tall buildings leap in a single round.

Tell me. What's the break DC for "top half of the mountain"?

Add in more fun when you out grapple dragons. Heh. +500 hp just from con. Make a cloth shirt with heavy fortification on it, and poof, you're done.

avr
2008-03-12, 03:30 PM
*cough* 2 levels of Bloodstorm Blade can fix that up.

Doesn't work - only Iron Heart Strikes with Martial Throw.

Talic
2008-03-12, 03:38 PM
Doesn't work - only Iron Heart Strikes with Martial Throw.

Wrong.

That's the Level 1 ability. Level 2 lets you, as a swift action, treat all your ranged attack rolls as melee attacks until the beginning of your next turn. Other stuff too, but there is no mention of Iron Heart Strikes in the Thunderous Throw ability.

NEO|Phyte
2008-03-12, 03:47 PM
You know, I'm half-tempted to make an entry for this one, my ToB combat uberbuild fits the bill quite nicely, expecially with the Gestalt. Its not likely to beat the Hurler, but few things are.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-12, 05:21 PM
-snip rogue//warlock build synergising SA and Eldrich blast-.



This challenge is specifically for ranged weapons, not just ranged attacks.

Not a bad idea, what I had in mind at first, but apparently Duke of URL wants actual ranged weapon builds, not just ranged attacks.

avr
2008-03-12, 06:37 PM
Name: Daze of our lives
Classes: Warblade 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 4 / Warblade +6 / Master of Nine 5 // Fighter 6 / Warblade +2 / Fighter +8 / Rogue 4
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 8
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Cheese points: 1 (one flaw)
Power Break: 4 - Boomerang daze, 9 – lightning throw, 18 - 9th level manoeuvres

Halfling (Favoured class Rogue, +1 to hit with thrown wpns etc)
{table]Level|Side 1|Side 2|Class Features
1|Fighter 1|Warblade 1|Battle clarity (reflex saves), weapon aptitude
2|Fighter 2|Warblade 2|Uncanny dodge
3|Fighter 3|Warblade 3|Battle ardor (crit confirm)
4|Fighter 4|Warblade 4|
5|Fighter 5|Warblade 5|
6|Fighter 6|Bloodstorm Blade 1|Returning attacks, throw anything
7|Warblade 6|Bloodstorm Blade 2|Improved uncanny dodge, thunderous throw, martial throw
8|Warblade 7|Bloodstorm Blade 3|Battle cunning (damage)
9|Fighter 7|Bloodstorm Blade 4|Lightning throw
10|Fighter 8|Warblade 8|
11|Fighter 9|Warblade 9|
12|Fighter 10|Warblade 10|
13|Fighter 11|Warblade 11|Battle skill (opposed checks)
14|Fighter 12|Warblade 12|
15|Fighter 13|Warblade 13|
16|Fighter 14|Master of Nine 6|
17|Rogue 1|Master of Nine 7|Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, dual stance
18|Rogue 2|Master of Nine 8|Evasion, perfect form
19|Rogue 3|Master of Nine 9|Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1, counter stance
20|Rogue 4|Master of Nine 10|Mastery of Nine[/table]

Feats
Flaw: Inattentive -> Quick Draw
{table]Level|Base|Fighter|Warblade|B. Blade
1|Talenta Warrior|Point Blank Shot
2||Weapon Focus
3|Precise Shot
4||Boomerang Daze
5|||Improved Initiative
6|Rapid Shot|Weapon Spec
8||||Far Shot
9|Boomerang Ricochet
10||Greater Wpn Focus
11|||Blind Fighting
12|TWF|Dodge
14||Martial Study (Vanguard Strike)
15|Adaptive Style||Imp Unarmed Strike
16||Greater Wpn Spec
18|Improved TWF[/table]

Offensive: Boomerang Daze dazes anyone hit by one of his boomerangs for 1 round if they fail a Fort save, DC 10 + damage dealt.

There are two or three fun bits here: first, the martial throw ability of the Bloodstorm blade lets him use Iron Heart strikes with thrown weapons. This synergises with the later Iron Heart strikes which add damage (Strike of Perfect Clarity – DC120+ saves anyone?).

Second, practically nothing is immune to Daze when it is not a mind-affecting effect (though I can see house rules coming in to protect the poor undead if this is actually used in a game).

Third, when not using those Iron Heart strikes, he does get an awful lot of attacks. With Rapid shot, TWF/Imp TWF, the Raging Mongoose boost & the Time Stands Still strike and a haste from somewhere he gets at least 20 attacks in one round, and may be able to double that if he can use the Boomerang Ricochet feat. Lightning throw means he only needs 2 boomerangs for all these attacks - which means the boomerang in his primary hand must be capable of travelling at 1200' per second. Maybe the daze is caused by sonic booms ...

Defensive: Good Fort save, effectively a good Reflex save, evasion and improved uncanny dodge, mostly d12 HD and Tome of Battle goodness.

Weaknesses: If he gets hit with multiple will saves without refreshing his manoeuvres, he's got a big problem. DR can stop his ranged attacks dead until he gets high level strikes (at least 7th, preferably 9th). Wind wall will always be a problem.

Talic
2008-03-12, 08:07 PM
Templates may not be applied more than once. Further, I admitted that following the same tree down, using all the Str boost templates, will net a higher str and more damage.

You're still using my entry as a base. C'mon, man, this is about original entries.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-12, 08:14 PM
At least I don't have to worry about winning the Gouda award... :smallwink:

_Puppetmaster_
2008-03-12, 08:16 PM
Templates may not be applied more than once. Further, I admitted that following the same tree down, using all the Str boost templates, will net a higher str and more damage.

You're still using my entry as a base. C'mon, man, this is about original entries.

the paragon template can be applied more that once.

alright, I'll change it

EDIT: you know what? I don't think im up to the book keeping involved with this build.

Talic
2008-03-12, 08:18 PM
At least I don't have to worry about winning the Gouda award... :smallwink:

Go ahead, double dip every theurge class out there. Diplomance too. :) Grab a couple UMD's. I got ya covered, with one point of average damage per round for each point of cheese. :)

Squash Monster
2008-03-12, 08:46 PM
Talic, I'd like to challenge you on the cheese front. Do you mind if I borrow that race in my build?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-12, 08:47 PM
Name: Whispers In The Night
Build: Whisper Gnome Ranger 11/Horizon Walker 4/Dread Commando 5//Rogue 14/Fighter 6
Starting Ability Scores: STR 9, DEX 19, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 6
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: He really has no overt power break, his power gradually increases over time.

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat | Ability
1 | Ranger | Rogue | Wpn Focus (Light Crossbow) | 1st Favored Enemy (Humanoid [Human]), Track, Wild Empathy, SA +1d6, Trapfinding
2 | Ranger | Rogue | | Combat Style (Archery [Rapid Shot]), Evasion
3 | Ranger | Rogue | Rapid Reload | Bonus Feat (Endurance), SA +2d6, Trap Sense +1
4 | Ranger | Rogue | | Animal Companion, Uncanny Dodge
5 | Ranger | Rogue | | 2nd Favored Enemy (Humanoid [Dwarf]), SA +3d6
6 | Ranger | Rogue | Crossbow Sniper | Improved Combat Style (Archery [Manyshot]), Trap Sense +2
7 | Ranger | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Point Blank Shot), Woodland Stride
8 | Ranger | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Precise Shot), Swift Tracker
9 | Ranger | Fighter | Dodge | Evasion
10 | Ranger | Fighter | | Bonus Feat (Able Sniper), 3rd Favored Enemy (Humanoid [Elf])
11 | Ranger | Fighter | |Combat Style Mastery (Archery [Improved Precise Shot])
12 | Horizon Walker | Fighter | Mobility | Bonus Feat (Improved Rapid Shot), Terrain Mastery (Forest)
13 | Horizon Walker | Rogue | | Terrain Mastery (Marsh), SA +4d6
14 | Horizon Walker | Rogue | | Terrain Mastery (Plains), Improved Uncanny Dodge
15 | Horizon Walker | Rogue | Improved Critical (Light Crossbow) | Terrain Mastery (Underground), Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3
16 | Dread Commando | Rogue | | Special Ability (Skill Mastery), Sudden Strike +1d6, Team Initiative Bonus
17 | Dread Commando | Rogue | | SA +6d6, Armored Ease 2
18 | Dread Commando | Rogue | Telling Blow | Trap Sense +4, Sudden Strike +2d6
19 | Dread Commando | Rogue | | Sneak Attack +7d6, Special Ability (Feat [Darkstalker]), Armored Ease 4, Stealthy Movement
20 | Dread Commando | Rogue | | Sudden Strike +3d6
[/table]

Total Feats:

1 - Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow), Track
2 - Rapid Shot
3 - Rapid Reload, Endurance
6 - Crossbow Sniper, Manyshot
7 - Point Blank Shot
8 - Precise Shot
9 - Dodge
10 - Able Sniper
11 - Improved Precise Shot
12 - Mobility, Improved Rapid Shot
15 - Improved Critical (Light Crossbow)
18 - Telling Blow
19 - Darkstalker


Offense: This guy sports an insane hide and move silently that he can always take 10 on thanks to Skill Mastery. Sniping grants him an extra 10d6. A critical also grants the 10d6 thanks to telling blow. Can snipe from 60', half dex bonus to damage.

Defense: He will most likely see you first thanks to 120' darkvision and will possibly go first with such a high dexterity and the team initiative bonus from dread commando.

Weaknesses: Almost useless in melee. Undead, Constructs and other things immune to precision damage will make him into a support character.

Special Notes: He's not the strongest, he's not the cheesiest, but if that little crossbow bolt hits you... you'll feel it. In your spleen.

Talic
2008-03-12, 10:44 PM
Talic, I'd like to challenge you on the cheese front. Do you mind if I borrow that race in my build?

Well, bear in mind, there are only 2 races in my build. Human, and unicorn. Feel free to use either. If you're talkin' Tauric cheese? It's not hard to beat my tauric cheese. Add more templates, or try to optimize the classes at all. I mean really, add in lycanthropic vampirism with a werebear, and it's +24 strength, which would multiply the damage by about x5 or so. I mean really, the absolute best bet is to KEEP throwing templates on, after the Tauric. Double dip that junk. If you wanna use the race, it's a free world. I know that I created the monster. Others can finish optimizing. After my damage cleared 100,000,000 , it got a bit more blah. If I find time, I'll kick him up a notch.

Squash Monster
2008-03-12, 10:48 PM
I'd like to thank Tauric for the race I'm using here. I'll be posting a non cheese-based build later this week, but I thought I'd share this with everybody.

I'll fill in the class features table later. Maybe.


"Name": Cheese falls, everybody dies

The Idea: The standard cheesy combo of exponential carrying capacity growth and insane strength score being leveraged through hulking hurler, along with an even crazier ranged bullrush combination makes for a character that can destroy nations. And the range is a little better than usual too.

Race: Tauric Human / Pseudonatural Shadow Paragon Half Celestial, Half Dragon, Half Earth Elemental Unicorn of Legend

Abilities:
Base: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
After Racial: Str 84, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Go ahead, put all your bonuses into strength.
Level 20: Str 89, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8

{table=header]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 1 | d8 |
2 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 2 | d8 |
3 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 3 | d8 |
4 | Fighter | Tauric Racial HD | 4 | d10 |
5 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 5 | d10 |
6 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 6/1 | d10 |
7 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 7/2 | d10 |
8 | Warblade | Wu Jen | 8/3 | d12 |
9 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 9/4 | d12 |
10 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 10/5 | d12 |
11 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 11/6/1 | d12 |
12 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 12/7/2 | d12 |
13 | Hulking Hurler | Wu Jen | 13/8/3 | d10 |
14 | Hulking Hurler | Wu Jen | 14/9/4 | d10 |
15 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 15/10/5 | d8 |
16 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 16/11/6/1 | d8 |
17 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 17/12/7/2 | d8 |
18 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 18/13/8/3 | d12 |
19 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 19/14/9/4 | d12 |
20 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 20/15/10/5 | d12 |
[/table]

Expected HP:
6d8 + 6d10 + 8d12 + 1160 + 3 = 1275 average

Casts as:
16th level Wu Jen (20th caster level)

Feats:
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Improved Bull Rush
4rd Fighter: Knockback
5th Fighter: Point Blank Shot
6th: Combat Expertise
7th Fighter: Shock Trooper
9th: Improved Trip
12th: Mountain Warrior
12th Bloodstorm Blade: Weapon Focus (Javelin)
15th: Practiced Spellcaster (Wu Jen)
18th: Toughness
18th Bloodstorm Blade: Rapid Shot

Strengths:
Full caster
Does gajillions of damage per hit
Can attack every living thing in range until it dies (five times)
Pretty good range

Weaknesses:
It's not pun-pun

Items:
Get a +6 item of strength.
And a really really big lead blade

How it works:
Cast the spell Giant's Size.
At your caster level (20th), that's +32 to strength.
Assume a +6 item of strength.
Now your strength is 122, and you're a collosal quadriped
You can throw a medium load: that's
7,700,742,144 pounds
Double that because your giant lead blade is sharp
For an effective weight of 15,401,484,288 pounds
Using the improvised weapon damage from Complete Warrior:
400 pounds does 5d6 damage, and each additional 200 pounds deals another 1d6 damage. This makes for 38,503,713d6 damage.

Your range increment is 25 feet, x2 for Far Shot. Max range is 15 increments due to cragtop archer, for a max range of 300 feet.

Finally, for the good part (that's right): level 2 of Bloodstorm Blade lets you, as a swift action, treat all attacks you make for the round as melee. You have knockback, which lets you make a free bullrush attempt against anything you hit with a melee attack. You're going to send it flying, with your huge strength score. Send it flying into somebody else to trigger Domino Rush from your Shock Trooper feat. By triggering Domino Rush, you get to make a free trip attempt against both targets. This will probably succeed. You have improved trip, which gives you a free attack against each of them. Send them flying into somebody else. It ends when you're satisfied.

There you go: everything within 300 feet dies. Heartilly and repeatedly.

Playability:
I wouldn't recommend it.

Squash Monster
2008-03-12, 10:52 PM
Well, bear in mind, there are only 2 races in my build. Human, and unicorn. Feel free to use either. If you're talkin' Tauric cheese? It's not hard to beat my tauric cheese. Add more templates, or try to optimize the classes at all. I mean really, add in lycanthropic vampirism with a werebear, and it's +24 strength, which would multiply the damage by about x5 or so. I mean really, the absolute best bet is to KEEP throwing templates on, after the Tauric. Double dip that junk. If you wanna use the race, it's a free world. I know that I created the monster. Others can finish optimizing. After my damage cleared 100,000,000 , it got a bit more blah. If I find time, I'll kick him up a notch.Dumping a few more templates onto it would certainly make it stronger, but I think that's unsportsmanly. I wanted to stick with the same cheesy race, for the sake of comparison. The build's up now though, so enjoy it.

Chronos
2008-03-12, 10:53 PM
SamTheCleric, why four levels of Horizon Walker? If I were going to take that class at all, I'd want to get to at least six, to start getting some planar masteries. It just seems like if you're only going to get the regular ones, there are much better class features available.

Draz74
2008-03-12, 11:32 PM
I've edited an earlier post to include my first entry, who's vying for the Gouda award as well. :smallwink:

dspeyer
2008-03-13, 12:04 AM
Apparently eldritch blast isn't weapon-like enough. OK, let's see what I can do with a longbow

Name: Ghengis
Classes: Centaur fighter 4 / horizon walker 8 / ranger 2 // ranger 6 / scout 14
Starting Ability Scores: STR: 18 DEX: 20 CON: 18 INT: 10 WIS: 14 CHA: 10
Minimum Playable Level: 6
{table]Level|Side 1|Side 2|Special Features|Feat
Race| | |Large, speed 50, darkvision 60, natural armor +3
1|LA 1|Ranger 1|Favored Enemy 1, Wild Empathy|Track, Point Blank Shot
2|LA 2|Ranger 2| |Rapid Shot
3|RHD 1|Ranger 3| |Endurance, Dodge
4|RHD 2|Ranger 4| Animal Companion, Spells|
5|RHD 3|Ranger 5| Favored Enemy 2 |
6|RHD 4|Ranger 6| | Manyshot, Mobility
7|Fighter 1|Scout 1| Skirmish 1d6, Trapfinding | shot on the run
8|Fighter 2|Scout 2| Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge | Precise Shot
9|Fighter 3|Scout 3| speed 60, Skirmish 1d6 1AC, Trackless Step | Far Shot
10|Fighter 4|Scout 4| | Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
11|Terrain Master 1|Scout 5|Skirmish 2d6 1ac, evasion, +4 spot, +1a/d vs plains creatures|
12|Terrain Master 2|Scout 6|Flawless Stride, +4 listen, +1a/d vs hills creatures| Improved Precise Shot
13|Terrain Master 3|Scout 7|Skirmish 2d6 2ac, darkvision 120, +1a/d vs underground creatures
14|Terrain Master 4|Scout 8|Camouflage, +4 hide, +1a/d vs forest creatures|Improved Critical
15|Terrain Master 5|Scout 9|Skirmish 3d6 2ac, +4 move silently, +1a/d vs marsh creatures|Penetrating Shot
16|Terrain Master 6|Scout 10|Blindsense 30, dimension door every d4 rounds, +1a/d against shifting creatures
17|Terrain Master 7|Scout 11|Battle Fortitude +2, speed 70, skirmish 3d6 3ac, fire resistance 20, +1a/d vs fire creatures|
18|Terrain Master 8|Scout 12|cold resistance 20, +1a/d vs cold creatures|deadeye shot, iron will
19|Ranger 7|Scout 13|skirmish 4d6 4ac, woodland stride|
20|Ranger 8|Scout 14|hide in plain sight, swift tracker|[/table]

The disadvantage of archery is low damage. I counter that with large size (2d6 base longbow damage), composite (+4 str), skirmish, weapon specialization, 2 favored enemies, and +1 insight damage to most creature types. By level 19, that's 6d6+6 against an enemy I have no special bonus against. Not too shabby. And that's before enhancements on the bow, which I will spend most of my gold on, and will include energy damage.

The advantage of ranged weaponry is keeping a distance from enemies. With shot-on-the-run, peaking out of cover to shoot and then getting back behind it is easy. With 70 ft movement and far shot, I can start 200 ft back, advance 35 ft, fire at 165 (my range increment) and retreat to 200. 200 is twice the range increment of a longbow, and medium spell range for a 10th level caster. Alternatively, I can start at 65 ft (just outside charge range), point-blank manyshot from 30 with skirmish damage and get back out again. I'm not sure what happens if you fire at an exact integer multiple of a range increment, but by targeting someone other than the opposing parties primary archer, it should be possible to get the padding needed.

Besides that, there's full BAB, good ref and fort saves, and lots of skills (6 at the first 6 levels, 8 past that). There's also every archery-related feat in the PHB.

I'm still not satisfied with the last few levels or feats, though. I felt like I kind of ran out of options. There's probably better stuff in some book I haven't seen.

--Edit--
I just ran into the greater manyshot feat. I can't tell if it requires psionics or not, but if not, take it at 12th level and bump everything else down (lose iron will). Adding skirmish to all arrows is a great ability.

By 20th level, with a +2 shocking, freezing composite longbow (pretty tame by lvl 20 standards), a full manyshot attacks at 20(bab)+7(dex)+1(wf)+2(magic)+1(pbs)-8(ms)=23 and each arrow does 2d6(base)+2d6(energy)+4d6(skirmish)+4(composite)+2 (magic)+2(ws)+1(pbs)=8d6+9 damage and there are 4 of them for 32d6+36 total damage (expected 148). Also multiply any favoured enemy or terrain master bonuses by 4.

Draz74
2008-03-13, 01:35 AM
I guess I'll do a serious entry too.

Name: Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School
Build: Goliath Warblade 13 / Monk (Overwhelming Attack variant) 2 / Bloodstorm Blade 5 // LA 1 / Fighter (Dungeoncrasher variant) 6 / Barbarian (wolf totem variant, whirling frenzy variant) 2 / Master Thrower 5 / Warlock 6
Starting Ability Scores: STR 20, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 8
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Cheese Points: 1 (multiclassing)
Power Breaks: Level 6, Level 7

Level 1: Warblade 1 // LA +1
Level 2: Warblade 2 // Fighter 1
Level 3: Warblade 3 // Fighter 2
Level 4: Monk 1 // Fighter 3
Level 5: Monk 2 // Fighter 4
Level 6: Bloodstorm Blade 1 // Fighter 5
Level 7: Bloodstorm Blade 2 // Fighter 6
Level 8: Bloodstorm Blade 3 // Barbarian 1
Level 9: Warblade 4 // Master Thrower 1
Level 10: Warblade 5 // Master Thrower 2
Level 11: Warblade 6 // Master Thrower 3
Level 12: Warblade 7 // Master Thrower 4
Level 13: Warblade 8 // Master Thrower 5
Level 14: Bloodstorm Blade 4 // Barbarian 2
Level 15: Bloodstorm Blade 5 // Warlock 1
Level 16: Warblade 9 // Warlock 2
Level 17: Warblade 10 // Warlock 3
Level 18: Warblade 11 // Warlock 4
Level 19: Warblade 12 // Warlock 5
Level 20: Warblade 13 // Warlock 6

Feats
L1: Point Blank Shot
L2 F: Precise Shot
L3: Rapid Shot
L3 F: {Dungeoncrasher}
L4 M: Power Attack
L5 F: Two-Weapon Fighting
L5 M: Improved Bull Rush
L6: Knockback
L7 F: Shock Trooper
L8 BB: Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
L9: Far Shot
L10 W: Ironheart Aura
L12: Stormguard Warrior
L14 B: Improved Trip
L15: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
L16 W: Improved Initiative
L18: Extra Rage
L20 W: Iron Will

Idea
Let's see. How many shuriken can you throw in a full attack?

4 (iterative attacks) +2 (TWF) +1 (rapid shot) +1 (flurry of blows) +1 (whirling frenzy rage) +1 (some kind of haste effect). Double all of that with Palm Throw. That's 20 shuriken.

Each one you hit with lets you make a bull rush attempt, with a lot of bonuses. If you can bull rush one target into another, trip both of them with a lot of bonuses. If the trip is successful, gain an extra attack (for another bull rush). If you bull rush them into a wall, do a lot of Dungeoncrasher damage (8d6+STRx3).

And that's before you factor in the madness of Warblade maneuvers. You have an initiator level of 19. So ... Raging Mongoose, anyone? Or *gasp* Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip? You attack often enough that Blood in the Water could be nice even without a large threat range. And don't get me started on Avalanche of Blades (which still lets you bull rush and dungeoncrash!), let alone Avalanche of Blades as a setup for Stormguard Warrior (yikes!).

The Warlock levels are there, partly because I just didn't need much else at higher levels, but mostly because you get permanent flight without resorting to items. And whenever you're flying above a grounded opponent, the ground makes a convenient "wall" to bull rush opponents into. Other invocations can be handy little perks, too, like Devil's Sight. Hideous Blow is subpar, but you can afford to take it just for fun. Then on the rare occasions when you only get one attack, like in a surprise round, you can attach Eldritch Blast damage (and dungeoncrasher damage, and Strike of Perfect Clarity) to a shuriken. Heh.

Eldariel
2008-03-13, 01:51 AM
It most certainly is. I'm using metamorphosis, however :P. Nah, I expect to be punished for my shapechanging, but still—it's all in good fun. I had an ever MORE borked options available using oldschool polymorph cheese, which used Master Transmogrofist, Warshaper, Arcane Archer, and some other gleeful stuff—but I scratched that and went with a slightly more reasonable variation, since the "can change to something of your own type" clause has been errata-ed out of polymorph.

I was referring to the guidelines; they made no mention of Polymorph anywhere. I guess I'll get posting soon then.

Beren One-Hand
2008-03-13, 02:16 AM
Since everyone seems to be competing on the basis of tons of attacks, I worked up an entry that is one shot, one kill... sort of.

Name: Arrow from the dark
Build: Elf Beguiler // Rogue / Monk / Fighter / Assassin / Shadow Dancer / Ghost-faced Killer
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 14
Cheese Points: Level dips (but the're not hard to justify really), item dependence (his bow is key), 2 Flaws.
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: Level 12 (see the plan below)

{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | Feats | Sneak Attack / Sudden Strike | Special Abilities
1 | Beguiler | Rogue (Fighter Feat)| Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility | - | Trapfinding
2 | Beguiler | Rogue (Fighter Feat) | Power Attack | - | Cloaked Casting, Surprise Casting, Evasion
3 | Beguiler | Monk (Sleeping Tiger style) | Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Comp. Longbow) | - | Advanced Learning, Flurry of Blows, Monk AC/Unarmed Damage/+2 Hide
4 | Beguiler | Monk (Sleeping Tiger style) | Improved Initiative | - | Spell Reflection
5 | Beguiler | Fighter (Sneak Attack) | Silent Spell | +1d6 / - | Sneak Attack
6 | Beguiler | Assassin | Combat Reflexes | +2d6 / - | Poison Use, Death Attack
7 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | - | +2d6 / - | Ghost Step 1/day, Advanced Learning
8 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | - | +2d6 / +1d6 | Sudden Strike
9 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | Death Blow | +2d6 / +1d6 | Frightful Attack 1/day
10 | Beguiler | Shadow Dancer | Still Spell | +2d6 / +1d6 | Hide in Plain Sight
11 | Beguiler | Arcane Archer | - | +2d6 / +1d6 | Enhance Arrow +1, Eclectic Learning
12 | Beguiler | Arcane Archer | Sun School | +2d6 / +1d6 | Imbue Arrow
13 | Beguiler | Spell Thief | - | +3d6 / +1d6 | Steal Spell
14 | Beguiler | Psychic Rogue | - | +4d6 / +1d6 | -
15 | Beguiler | Ninja | Quickdraw | +4d6 / +2d6 | Ki Power 1/day, Eclectic Learning
16 | Beguiler | Scout | - | +4d6 / +2d6 | Skrimish (+1d6)
17 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | - | +4d6 / +2d6 | Ghost Step 2/day
18 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | Practised Caster (Beguiler) | +4d6 / +3d6 / +1d6 | -
19 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | - | +4d6 / +3d6 | Advanced Learning, Ghost Step (ethereal)
20 | Beguiler | Ghost-faced Killer | - | +4d6 / +3d6 | Ghost Sight, Ghost Step 3/day
[/table]

How it Works
Thoughout the levels you putz around charming, enchanting, and in short beguiling your foes. Hiding in plain sight and attacking with a Frightful Death attack is also a possibility. But by level 12 all his plans are in place, and he's ready to take on the world.

First he needs a trusty bow... A +1 Distance, Blood Seeking, Spell Storing Composite (+2) longbow of seeking will do for starters. (The rest of the +5 worth of ehancements are just gravy, something like flaming, shocking, frost, and unholy are nice).
Next he needs a target... Snoop around, there's bound to be a good high-profile target nearby.
Once you've done your homework, wait for your moment from afar in a nice hidden alcove filled with shadows. 18 seconds after you see the target, you use your Sniper's Shot spell and a moment later let the arrow fly. Since you need to be within 640' for the next step your range penalty will only be a maximum of -6, and the beauty is that you don't have to worry about concealment, cover, or a clear line of fire. (If you're really worried about the range penalty you could opt for a 7th level scroll of Persistant Guided Shot, or a 4th level scroll of Delayed Guided Shot and cast that before starting the combat rounds with your surprise shot).

Once the arrow hits home, the imbued Mind Fog spell envelops the mark and his bodyguards. Severaly weakened by the draining fog, the mark is an easy target for the Hold Person spell stored within the bow. Both of the spells benefit from his cloaked casting, increasing the saves and ability to bypass SR. Now that the surprise round is over, you take your first initiative to Diminsion Door right next to the helpless mark, and with a boot to the head (thanks to the sun school) you deliver a Frightful, Death coup de'gras (three save or dies and a save or suck to all around you), your final action for the round is to ghost step out of sight. Next round you can D. Door back to your hiding spot with near impunity.

Once you've reached level 15 you're ready to branch out and start taking orders for regicide, offering to steal the target's soul for an extra 25,000 gp more if your clients wish (Custom ordering a thinaun greatsword and pocketing a 5,000 gp finder's fee). You could stop in the shade of the castle wall and dissapear from view. Drop a greater scrying upon your target, or better yet one of his guards, three rounds later an arrow come flying through a window, around corners, and through cracks, striking the regent and releasing the deadly nerve gas. Suddenly you're there, sucking his soul into your sword, and once more vanishing. A job well done.

By level twenty your target receives:
{table=head]Source | Damage Dealt | Con Damage | Save DC | Descriptors
Arrow | 1d8 | - | - | -
Str Bonus | +2 | - | - | -
Enhancement | +5 | - | - | Via Greater Magic Weapon
Flaming | +1d6 | - | - | Fire Damage
Frost | +1d6 | - | - | Cold Damage
Shock | +1d6 | - | - | Electricity Damage
Holy | +2d6 | - | - | Vs Good target
Sneak Attack | +4d6 | - | - | -
Sudden Strike | +3d6 | - | - | -
Black Lotus Poison | - | 3d6 | DC 20 Fort Save | -
Mind Fog | - | - | DC 25 Will Save, no SR | Mind-Affecting, Compusion
Hold Person | - | - | DC 21 Will Save, with -10 penalty, no SR | Mind-Affecting, Compusion
Average Damage | 52 | 10 | - | -
Massive Damage | - | - | DC 15 Fort Save, with -5 penalty | -
Greatsword | 2d6 | - | - | -
Str Bonus | +3 | - | - | -
Enhancement | +5 | - | - | Via Greater Magic Weapon
Power Attack | +34 | - | - | - | For Full w/ 17 BAB
Critical (x2 damage) | +2d6+42 | Auto from Coup De Gras
Sneak Attack | +4d6 | - | - | -
Sudden Strike | +3d6 | - | - | -
Skirmish | +1d6 | - | - | -
Black Lotus Poison | - | 3d6 | DC 20 Fort Save, with -5 penalty | -
Average Damage | 133 | 10 | - | -
Massive Damage | - | - | DC 15 Fort Save, with -10 penalty | -
Frightful Attack (if HD<20) | - | - | DC 25 Will save, with -10 penalty | Mind-Affecting, Fear
Death Attack | - | - | DC 12 Fort Save, with -10 penalty | -
Coup De Gras | - | - | DC 133 Fort Save, with -10 penalty | Overkill
Total Average Damage | 190 | 20 | 4 Fort Save or Dies & 1 Will Save or Die | Soul is sucked into sword[/table]

And all those within 30' receive:
{table=head]Target's HD | Will Save DC | Or Be
Less than 15 HD | 49 | Panicked
HD 15+ | 49 | Shaken[/table]

So your unless your target has more than 20 Con, 190 HP (not counting bonus points from constitution), and can withstand all 5 saves (including the one with only a 5% chance of succeeding) he is dead and can never be raised until you've killed another target with your sword. On top of all that, the majority of onlookers will start running away from you in completely random directions, creating utter chaos for your escape.

Items
+1 Shock, Frost, Flaming, Unholy, Distance, Blood Seeking, Spell Storing Composite (+2) longbow of Seeking 200,575 gp
+6 Gloves of Dexterity 36,000 gp
+6 Cloak of Charisma 36,000 gp
Tome of Leadership and Influence +1 27,500 gp
2 Doses of Black Lotus Poison 9,000 gp
Thinaun Greatsword 20,050 gp
20 arrows 1 gp
430,874 gp left

avr
2008-03-13, 04:00 AM
Wrong.

That's the Level 1 ability. Level 2 lets you, as a swift action, treat all your ranged attack rolls as melee attacks until the beginning of your next turn. Other stuff too, but there is no mention of Iron Heart Strikes in the Thunderous Throw ability.

Wrong again. Martial throw is level 2. Thunderous throw (also level 2) allows you to use your melee attack bonus including strength and feats on thrown attacks, and also allows you to use power attack including the full damage bonus for power attacking with a 2H weapon (if applicable) on those attacks.

If you dig back to the start of this subthread, the original comment was about not being able to use the Aura of Chaos stance with ranged attacks, the second comment suggested 2 levels of Bloodstorm Blade. Neither of these abilities actually allows the use of the Aura of Chaos stance on a ranged attack as 1/ its not an Iron Heart strike, 2/ it doesn't affect attack bonus, 3/ it doesn't affect Power Attack.

Eldariel
2008-03-13, 04:24 AM
The Fact Hunter

Name: Samtrass, Arry Manrow
Build: Human Factotum 11/Exoticist 2/Chameleon 7 // Scout 3/Ranger 14/Chameleon 3
ACFs: Exoticist Fighter (pick Greatbow and 3 whatever other weapons), Arcane Hunter, Shooting Star Replacement Levels (except for Swift Tracker-replacement), Spiritual Connection
Alignment: Neutral Good (could be 1 to any direction)
Deity: Mystra (well, she gives you few Ranger-spells few levels earlier; not critical, but Ranger-list has quite a few sweet ones so I'd rather keep her. For non-campaign specific though, just pick up Distracting Attack instead of Shooting Star-replacement and worship whoever the damn you want)
Ability Scores: 10 Str/14 Dex/14 Con/15 Int/14 Wis/8 Cha, levelups go to Dex, after first; 4th goes to Int for 3 Fonts. Last can be put into Int too.
Cheese Points: 0, maybe 1 for Fighter-dip (but really, how hard is it to explain why a Ranger happens to get few Fighter-levels. Maybe he just trained more with the damn bow?). Luckily Human trivializes Favored Class-rules and since this is a Chameleon, he's a Human anyways.
Minimum Level Playable: 1
Power Breaks: 8 (Extra Standard Action), 10 (Second Extra Standard Action), 11 (Greater Manyshot), 12 (Improved Skirmish, Third Extra Standard Action)


{table=head]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feats | Special Abilities | Skirmish +Damage/+AC | Spells/Maximum Level/Class | Inspiration
1 | Factotum 1 | Scout 1 | Able Learner, Point Blank Shot | Trapfinding, Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge | 1d6 | 0 | 2
2 | Factotum 2 | Scout 2 | | Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge | 1d6 | 1/0/Factotum | 3
3 | Factotum 3 | Scout 3 | Precise Shot | Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense | 1d6/1 | 1/1/Factotum | 3
4 | Factotum 4 | Ranger 1 | Track | Favored Enemy: Arcanists, Spiritual Connection, Cunning Strike | 1d6/1 | 2/1/Factotum | 3
5 | Factotum 5 | Ranger 2 | Rapid Shot | Opportunistic Piety | 1d6/1 | 2/2/Factotum | 4
6 | Factotum 6 | Ranger 3 | Swift Hunter | Sending 1/day, Favored Enemy: Undead | 2d6/1 | 2/2/Factotum | 4
7 | Factotum 7 | Ranger 4 | | Spellcasting | 2d6/2 | 3/2/Factotum, 1/1/Ranger | 4
8 | Factotum 8 | Ranger 5 | | Cunning Surge | 2d6/2 | 3/3/Factotum, 1/1/Ranger | 5
9 | Factotum 9 | Ranger 6 | Manyshot, Font of Inspiration | | 3d6/2 | 4/3/Factotum, 2/1/Ranger | 6
10 | Factotum 10 | Chameleon 1 | | Opportunistic Piety +1, Aptitude Focus 1/day (+2) | 3d6/2 | 4/4/Factotum, 2/1/Ranger, 0/2/Chameleon | 6
11 | Exoticist 1 | Chameleon 2 | Far Shot, Greater Manyshot (Ability Boon qualifies you Dex-wise) | | 3d6/2 | 4/3/Factotum, 2/1/Ranger, 1/2/Chameleon | 6
12 | Factotum 11 | Ranger 7 | Font of Inspiration | Favored Enemy: Plants, Woodland Stride, Cunning Breach | 3d6/2 | 4/4/Factotum, 1/2/Ranger | 9
13 | Exoticist 2 | Chameleon 3 | Greater Manyshot, switch Chameleon-feat to Improved Skirmish | Mimic Class Feature 1/day | 3d6/2 | 4/4/Factotum, 2/1/Ranger, 0/3/Chameleon | 9
14 | Chameleon 4 | Ranger 8 | | Ability Boon +2, Swift Tracker | 3d6/3 | 4/4/Factotum, 1/2/Ranger, 1/3/Chameleon | 9
15 | Chameleon 5 | Ranger 9 | Improved Skirmish, switch Chameleon-feat to Font of Inspiration | Aptitude Focus 2/day (+4), Evasion | 3d6/3 | 4/4/Factotum, 1/2/Ranger, 0/4/Chameleon | 12
16 | Chameleon 6 | Ranger 10 | | Mimic Class Feature 2/day | 4d6/3 | 4/4/Factotum, 2/2/Ranger, 1/4/Chameleon | 12
17 | Chameleon 7 | Ranger 11 | Improved Precise Shot | Ability Boon +4, Double Aptitude | 4d6/3 | 4/4/Factotum, 1/3/Ranger, 0/5/Chameleon | 12
18 | Chameleon 8 | Ranger 12 | Font of Inspiration, switch Chameleon-feat to Ranged Skirmisher | Rapid Refocus, Favored Enemy: Elementals | 4d6/4 | 4/4/Factotum, 2/3/Ranger, 1/5/Chameleon | 12
19 | Chameleon 9 | Ranger 13 | | Mimic Class Feature 3/day, Camouflage | 4d6/4 | 4/4/Factotum, 2/3/Ranger, 0/6/Chameleon | 12
20 | Chameleon 10 | Ranger 14 | | Ability Boon +6, Aptitude Focus 3/day (+4) | 5d6/4 | 4/4/Factotum, 1/4/Ranger, 1/6/Chameleon | 12
[/table]


What he does:
Basically, since he's a Chameleon, he can do pretty much anything he wants. With 3 spell-lists (well, Chameleon can really make two extra), you'll have any spell you want (including Hunter's Mercy (switch Darkstalker for Telling Blow if you expect lots of long range combat; this gets you Skirmish at any range, and pick up Sneak Attack from Chameleon while it), Flame Arrow, Celerities, Arrowmind, etc.). You can also do skill monkeying really well with Factotum+Able Learner (it's Chameleon requirement so I had to pick it) and a decent Int-Human. With high Wisdom and maxed skills, he's an extraordinary Scout, especially with Trapfinding.

Most importantly, in combat, you start with a total of 5-6 Standard Actions worth of full attacks (depending on how you use the Chameleon-feat), plus any Celerities you feel like casting (not that I condone such broken spells; the build is fine without Celerity). Thanks to Chameleon skill bonuses and Combat Aptitude, you can easily ensure you'll be hitting a lot (if necessary, you can even use some of the Inspiration for boosting your attacks or ignoring DR) and you can have a good deal of Magic enhancing your attacks and boosting yourself. But yea, generally you'll shoot 20 arrows each dealing 7d6 (Improved Skirmish)+Bow Damage+Favored Enemy (if you're fighting it, it's probably Favored Enemy...save Oozes; if Dungeoncrawling campaign has any, you could take it instead of Elemental or Construct)+whatever spell bonuses you felt like making at +Dex (let's say 5+3 from Ability Boon)+Aptitude Focus+19 BAB (with Fractional BAB, it's 19, if using conventional BAB with Gestalt, which is dumb, you can even get it to 20 by switching few levels around)+whatever spells you feel like using, it's over +35 easily without Magic.

Also, the build could use Knowledge Devotion (just switch your Chameleon-feat to it) to boost it further, but that'd mean you'd have to spend a good portition of your 9-10 points into maxing Knowledges, which is kinda boring and it's just +5 to everything. Oh yeah, with Inspiration, you can Nova pretty well if you want to really hit things; you can get your Manyshot hit rolls really high and with your Spot, you can use the skilltrick 'Spot the Weak Point' along with Hunter's Mercy to make one extremely devastating attack and with some pimping of Spot-check (23 levels, 5 Wisdom, 30 item, 4 Aptitude Focus, and added Factotum-levels add up to around 75, when rolling 5 is enough; there're probably other ways to increase it I'm not thinking off right now, but off the top of my head), you should be able to hit creatures with a Touch AC of mid 50s and real AC around 80s.

Thanks to all the versatility, the character won't be locked in the boring "Move and Shoot"-formula; for a change, there're tons of spells that are very potent, especially thanks to Chameleon's doubled Caster Level progression (basically, all no-save spells are superb).

Equipment
He can use Major Creation if he doesn't feel he has enough bows around, although of course a magically enhanced Splitting-bow is the optimum; with CL 20 (Chameleon) and Greater Magic Weapon along with Major Creation, you can easily make a new bow in 10 mins if old one is lost and have it at +5 enhancement in no time. Of course, with all your spells (especially if you have a backup Wand or something), you'll be able to contribute just fine even if all your bows are blasted. Of course, all that takes preparation so you'd still prefer to keep your bows intact. Of course, it helps that you can ready some of your Standard Actions to Greater Manyshot a caster who tries to cast a spell, which could break your bow, and since you have Fast Movement (and Longstrider or Haste if you wish), Freedom of Movement (probably should be what you use your level 4 Ranger-spells on) plus high Tumble, you ending up locked in melee for long enough to someone Sunder all your bows looks pretty unlikely.

Offense
So yea, he does everything, doesn't need items (although they help) and shoots 20-24 (depending on the Chameleon-feat; with Inherent bonuses, he could qualify for additional Fonts and get more Standard Actions) arrows in a turn all dealing 30 average damage without Magic, Aptitudes, Ability Boon, PBS or FE factored in. Splitting +5 Bow would make that 35 per arrow and a total of 40-48 hits for some decent damage (mid 1200-1400s). Toss in Flame Arrow, Holy, Combat Focus, +6 Str Ability Boon (it might actually be preferable), +6 Str Item, Enlarge Person Energy Bow, Power Attack (from Energy Bow) and whatever arrow enhancements you can come up with (Hunter's Mercy could be cast for a crit too) and we're talking at least twice that damage per arrow, so around 2000-2800 base. I wouldn't be surprised if with enough spells, it could be pushed over 4000 (well, at least if Power Attacking for full with Energy Bow; too bad Peerless Archer is 3.0) if you hit with all (unlikely assumption, of course). And from the get-go, he is a fine Skirmisher with Int to damage and hit if necessary, along with a ton of skills and few spells, so he should kick ass all the way from 1 to 20. Oh yeah, and he'll have True Strike available on level 3, so he can hit if need be. He'll have plenty of True Strikes later on, and if he picks up Quicken Spell with Chameleon-feat, he can cast 'em as swift actions along with the Manyshot routine to hit exceptionally tough-to-hit enemies (such as most Epic monsters). As far as hitting goes, you should be able to get +19 BAB+11 Dex (if using Ability Boon and having read a book)+4 Aptitude Focus+5 Bow+4 Greater Heroism+2 Bracers of Archery-8 Greater Manyshot=+37 as the baseline.

One-Turning Hecatoncheires On Level 20
You could add to that +1 PBS, +1 Haste, +6 Divine Favor (just use your Arcane boosts earlier, switch Arcane focus to Combat Focus and go to town), +2 (more) from Divine Agility for +47 attack. Now, if we have a Brilliant Energy Splitting +1 bow (+8 Weapon, well within our funds), we can teleport next to Hecatoncheries (CR 57), win the initiative (their initiative sucks relatively; you'll have about 70% chance of pulling that off) and use 2 Inspiration Points as a free action, we remove their DR. We move, and have a Standard Action + 14 Inspiration Points left (we spent the last feat on Font of Inspiration). That leaves us to do 4 Full Round Attacks against their Brilliant AC of 58, something we've got 50% chance of hitting. Each of the arrows will do 7d6 Skirmish (they aren't immune and even if they were, it'd be simple enough to pick up Favored Enemy: Abomination over Construct or something) + 1d10 bow damage + various boosts (Magic Weapon, Combat Focus, Strength ~+5, Holy, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Divine Favor) for a number of 29 for a total of 53 damage per attack.

You can also use Chameleon to get Rage for +4 Str and thus +2 damage. Toss in Fell Greatest Foe and you get +2d6 (+7) to damage. Then we toss in Greater Mighty Wallop for our Greatbow, making the damage grow from 1d10 to 8d8, for a total of 36, making it 98.5. With 5 Standard actions, a total of 20 arrows will be fired. 10 of them should hit, two should threaten critical (we're using those Razor Arrows that are Keen...or just casting Keen Weapon) and have one critical. That evens up at around 1000 damage, enough to fell a Hecatoncheires and since our weapon is a holy, it's passing their regeneration and they're dead for real. You need to have time to prepare and therefore know beforehand you're going to fight one, but if you're prepared and get to devote your whole mighty arsenal to the battle (which is to be expected when a lone EL 20 Gestalt character goes up against CR 57 monster), you have a good chance of one-shotting it. If that fails though, you better have a quickened Teleportation-spell in your backpocket (although yes, you could just use Quickened Metamagic-rod to smash 'em with any Damage-spell as a lastditch attempt to finish them off).

If you lose Initiative, you can Celerity yourself to teleport yourself the hell out of there.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't factor in Splitting, which makes this ridiculously easy even without half of those buffs (even without Greater Mighty Wallop). You could even pick Improved Initiative to help go first (well, you'll have +15 against its +6 and you have it beat Dex-wise, so while not an autowin, you'll have very good chances). So yea, I accidently found out that by dedicating your whole spell selection towards it (and using Greater Mighty Wallop), you'll be able to kill a Hecatoncheires with a nothing but a mundane Composite Greatbow Of Very High Strength (Holy and Brilliant Energy are both available through spells, Brilliant Blade being 6th level Wizard-spell with 1 min/level duration so it'll be just available for you on level 20 from the Wizard-side even after the 10 minute meditation to switch Arcane to Combat Focus).

Defense
AC is going to be probably Celestial Armor +5 (10 AC)+8 Dex+5 Natural+5 Deflection+4 Skirmish in the end, making for a total of 42 without actual spells or spending Inspiration or Chameleon-abilities (other than Ability Boon: Dexterity). Touch AC is also decent (armor has Ghost Ward) 5+8+5+4=32. I suppose the build could pick up Spell Reflection, but since it costs uses of Mimic Class Feature to pick up Evasion from Chameleon, it's probably better to just stick to Evasion from Ranger. Saves are all good except for Will-saves, and you can work around that with Mindblank-items and protective spells (along with decent Wisdom). I suppose you could also pick up Divine Focus over Arcane Focus or Combat Focus (your usual two Focuses) to protect your mind in levels where you don't have access to items for the task. Early on, your Wisdom-bonuses will carry you pretty well. The combination of Arcane and Divine Focuses would give you +8 to Will-saves total, so by the time you get double Aptitude, this weakness disappears (unfortunately that's level 17). Fortitude- and Reflex-saves are going to be just fine thanks to Fighter- and Ranger-levels, decent Constitution and decent Dexterity. Unbuffed HP on level 20 is mere 144, which kind of sucks, but at least you'll have those Con-boost items for 204-244. I suppose you could pick up Ability Boon: Constitution if you felt you need more toughness than To Hit; on level 20, it's extra 60 HP. Improved Toughness is an option for the Chameleon Feat too, granting extra 20.

Weaknesses
Weakest level is probably level 5 before you get Swift Hunter when you're stuck with 1d6 Skirmish for one level longer than average Scout. On 6th level though, that particular problem expires and on 8th level, you'll be doing damn well with the two full attack bonus attacks with 2d6 Skirmish. After that, it's a party. Of course the usual arrow protections such as Windwall are annoying, but with CL 20 Chameleon casting in the end, you should be fine Dispelling them (although that means you'll use your level 6 slots on Greater Dispel Magics mostly), and thanks to the high caster level, you can also contribute with Magic instead of attacks, and Fonts of Inspiration go just fine with spells too.

Note that Cunning Surge is an Ex-ability, so enemy trying to take away your power with extensive Anti-Magic, or just and adventure in a Dead Magic Zone, gimps almost everyone else more than you as you can still perform your usual attack routine without Magic, and at considerable power, maintaining all of your versatility and your skills too.


Obligatory Sources: PHB (Ranger, feats), Dungeonscape (Factotum), Complete Adventurer (Scout), Complete Scoundrel (Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter), Races of Destiny (Chameleon, Able Learner), Class Chronicles: Factotum and Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) (Font of Inspiration)

Additional Used Sources: Lords of Madness (Darkstalker), Champions of Valor (Shooting Star Ranger), Complete Mage (Arcane Hunter), Dragon 346 (Ranged Skirmisher), Dragon 310 (Exoticist), Complete Champion (Spiritual Connection) - arranged in order of importance.

HOPEFULLY FINAL EDIT: Removed all the EDIT-tags. Let's just say the whole build was remade.

MAYBE REALLY FINAL EDIT: Added a section on killing a Hecatoncheires. Since all cool kids want to be able to that in one turn. Of course, it takes about a minute to cast all the buffs and the kill is just barely (not to mention, you need a weapon you won't normally use; Brilliant Energy is kinda meh), but there you have it; The Fact Hunter can Machine Gun a Heca down before they can act.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-13, 06:19 AM
SamTheCleric, why four levels of Horizon Walker? If I were going to take that class at all, I'd want to get to at least six, to start getting some planar masteries. It just seems like if you're only going to get the regular ones, there are much better class features available.

Would you accept "It was late and I'm fighting a cold, so Horizon Walker was the first thing I thought of that didnt have more requirements to muck it up" ?

+4 spot, hide, move silently and +60' darkvision isn't terrible... but it definately could be better. Any suggestions? :smalltongue:

Chronos
2008-03-13, 01:58 PM
+4 spot, hide, move silently and +60' darkvision isn't terrible... but it definately could be better. Any suggestions?Honestly, I'd rather have levels 13-17 of ranger than levels 1-5 of Horizon Walker. Sure, the combat style is finished, but you gain another favored enemy, camoflage, and Hide in Plain Sight (as an extraordinary ability, and which works in any natural terrain). Plus a ton of skill points, though that's not an issue with rogue on the other side.

Or, of course, you could drop something else and take more of Horizon Walker, to pick up the planar masteries. Dimension door and fire resistance are nice things to have.

Another option would be to replace one of those rogue levels with Psychic Rogue, to qualify for Slayer. The manifesting progression probably won't do too much for you, but it also has full BAB and a bunch of anti-mental abilities.

SamTheCleric
2008-03-13, 04:11 PM
Hmm, finishing out ranger isnt a bad idea.... maybe something with sudden strike . Could even squeeze in Gnome Giant Slayer if I wanted to :)

Talic
2008-03-13, 08:18 PM
I'd like to thank Tauric for the race I'm using here. I'll be posting a non cheese-based build later this week, but I thought I'd share this with everybody.

I'll fill in the class features table later. Maybe.


"Name": Cheese falls, everybody dies

The Idea: The standard cheesy combo of exponential carrying capacity growth and insane strength score being leveraged through hulking hurler, along with an even crazier ranged bullrush combination makes for a character that can destroy nations. And the range is a little better than usual too.

Race: Tauric Human / Pseudonatural Shadow Paragon Half Celestial, Half Dragon, Half Earth Elemental Unicorn of Legend

Abilities:
Base: Str 16, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
After Racial: Str 84, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Go ahead, put all your bonuses into strength.
Level 20: Str 89, Dex 58, Con 60, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8

{table=header]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 1 | d8 |
2 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 2 | d8 |
3 | ECL | Tauric Racial HD | 3 | d8 |
4 | Fighter | Tauric Racial HD | 4 | d10 |
5 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 5 | d10 |
6 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 6/1 | d10 |
7 | Fighter | Wu Jen | 7/2 | d10 |
8 | Warblade | Wu Jen | 8/3 | d12 |
9 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 9/4 | d12 |
10 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 10/5 | d12 |
11 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 11/6/1 | d12 |
12 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 12/7/2 | d12 |
13 | Hulking Hurler | Wu Jen | 13/8/3 | d10 |
14 | Hulking Hurler | Wu Jen | 14/9/4 | d10 |
15 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 15/10/5 | d8 |
16 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 16/11/6/1 | d8 |
17 | Cragtop Archer | Wu Jen | 17/12/7/2 | d8 |
18 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 18/13/8/3 | d12 |
19 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 19/14/9/4 | d12 |
20 | Bloodstorm Blade | Wu Jen | 20/15/10/5 | d12 |
[/table]

Expected HP:
6d8 + 6d10 + 8d12 + 1160 + 3 = 1275 average

Casts as:
16th level Wu Jen (20th caster level)

Feats:
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Improved Bull Rush
4rd Fighter: Knockback
5th Fighter: Point Blank Shot
6th: Combat Expertise
7th Fighter: Shock Trooper
9th: Improved Trip
12th: Mountain Warrior
12th Bloodstorm Blade: Weapon Focus (Javelin)
15th: Practiced Spellcaster (Wu Jen)
18th: Toughness
18th Bloodstorm Blade: Rapid Shot

Strengths:
Full caster
Does gajillions of damage per hit
Can attack every living thing in range until it dies (five times)
Pretty good range

Weaknesses:
It's not pun-pun

Items:
Get a +6 item of strength.
And a really really big lead blade

How it works:
Cast the spell Giant's Size.
At your caster level (20th), that's +32 to strength.
Assume a +6 item of strength.
Now your strength is 122, and you're a collosal quadriped
You can throw a medium load: that's
7,700,742,144 pounds
Double that because your giant lead blade is sharp
For an effective weight of 15,401,484,288 pounds
Using the improvised weapon damage from Complete Warrior:
400 pounds does 5d6 damage, and each additional 200 pounds deals another 1d6 damage. This makes for 38,503,713d6 damage.

Your range increment is 25 feet, x2 for Far Shot. Max range is 15 increments due to cragtop archer, for a max range of 300 feet.

Finally, for the good part (that's right): level 2 of Bloodstorm Blade lets you, as a swift action, treat all attacks you make for the round as melee. You have knockback, which lets you make a free bullrush attempt against anything you hit with a melee attack. You're going to send it flying, with your huge strength score. Send it flying into somebody else to trigger Domino Rush from your Shock Trooper feat. By triggering Domino Rush, you get to make a free trip attempt against both targets. This will probably succeed. You have improved trip, which gives you a free attack against each of them. Send them flying into somebody else. It ends when you're satisfied.

There you go: everything within 300 feet dies. Heartilly and repeatedly.

Playability:
I wouldn't recommend it.

As I said, I knew it was unoptimized, for a guy that does over a million damage a round. I like by build slightly more, for the Hide in Plain sight, over the bullrush, which has a max distance of 5 feet if you don't follow them (which you can't).

Draz74
2008-03-13, 08:50 PM
As I said, I knew it was unoptimized, for a guy that does over a million damage a round. I like by build slightly more, for the Hide in Plain sight, over the bullrush, which has a max distance of 5 feet if you don't follow them (which you can't).

Knockback gets rid of the 5 feet limit.

Chronos
2008-03-14, 01:56 AM
Aha, I've finally figured out a use for this class!

Long-Range Lawnmower
Build: Human duskblade 20 // warblade 5 / bloodstorm blade 4 / arcane duelist 10 / warblade 1
Ability scores: Focus on Int and Strength (exact values don't matter), but can benefit from everything but Wis
Minimum playable level: 1
Cheese points: 0

{table=head]ECL | Left class | Right class | Feats | Special
1 | Duskblade 1 | Warblade 1 | Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus | Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (light), Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude
2 | Duskblade 2 | Warblade 2 | Combat Casting | Uncanny Dodge
3 | Duskblade 3 | Warblade 3 | Power Attack | Arcane Channeling (standard), Battle Ardor
4 | Duskblade 4 | Warblade 4 | | Armored Mage (medium)
5 | Duskblade 5 | Warblade 5 | Improved Initiative | Quick Cast 1/day, Bonus Feat
6 | Duskblade 6 | Bloodstorm Blade 1 | Dodge, Throw Anything | Spell Power +2, Returning Attack, Weapon Aptitude
7 | Duskblade 7 | Bloodstorm Blade 2 | | Armored Mage (heavy shield), Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw
8 | Duskblade 8 | Bloodstorm Blade 3 | Far Shot | Bonus Feat
9 | Duskblade 9 | Bloodstorm Blade 4 | Mobility | Lightning Ricochet
10 | Duskblade 10 | Arcane Duelist 1 | | Quick Cast (2/day), Chosen weapon, Enchant chosen weapon +1
11 | Duskblade 11 | Arcane Duelist 2 | | Spell Power +3, Apparent defense
12 | Duskblade 12 | Arcane Duelist 3 | Rapid Shot | Dextrous Attack
13 | Duskblade 13 | Arcane Duelist 4 | | Arcane Channeling (full), Enchant Chosen Weapon +2
14 | Duskblade 14 | Arcane Duelist 5 | | Blur
15 | Duskblade 15 | Arcane Duelist 6 | Improved Critical | Quick Cast (3/day), Enchant Chosen Weapon +3
16 | Duskblade 16 | Arcane Duelist 7 | | Spell Power +4, False Keenness
17 | Duskblade 17 | Arcane Duelist 8 | | Enchant Chosen Weapon +4
18 | Duskblade 18 | Arcane Duelist 9 | Weapon Specialization | Spell Power +5, Mirror Image
19 | Duskblade 19 | Arcane Duelist 10 | | Flurry of Swords
20 | Duskblade 20 | Warblade 6 | | Quick Cast (4/day), Improved Uncanny Dodge[/table]

How it works: The Arcane Duelist (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) class gets some really cool features, but unfortunately, it has poor BAB and no spell progression, which ordinarily makes it rather useless. Gestalt, of course, provides a cure for this. Ordinarily, it's melee-only, but the spell prereq disqualified it from challenge #1. Bloodstorm Blade, however, with its feature of treating thrown attacks as melee, lets it work at range, too.

Some features of note:
Enhance Chosen Weapon explicitly stacks with other enhancement bonuses on the weapon. So even without WBL, you can get an epic weapon at level 15 (between Enhance Chosen Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon), and a +9 weapon at level 20.

Dexterous Attack can be used together with Power Attack, but it's always 1 for 1. So you can use a two-handed weapon, use Dexterous Strike for, say, 12, and Power Attack for 12, for a net gain of +12 to damage and no penalty to attack.

False Keenness explicitly stacks with Improved Critical. So at level 16, you can have a scythe (Lawnmower's preferred weapon) with crits of 18-20/x4. Note that this also synergizes well with the Warblade's Battle Ardor, to be sure you confirm.

Arcane Duelist's capstone lets you multiply your full attack damage by a factor of 5-8, ten times a day (only once per opponent, but you shouldn't need it more than that). Admittedly, most of it is subdual, but once your opponent is knocked out, well look at that, you're using a scythe, I wonder what you'll do with it.

From Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Ricochet, your scythe ricochets back to you after every attack, letting you make full attacks with it.

From Bloodstorm's Thunderous Strike, you make thrown attacks as if they were melee, including Power Attack and strength.

From Duskblade (and Thunderous Strike), you can channel spells into your attacks, even at range.

Also from Duskblade, you can quick-cast useful spells like True Strike.

I'm not sure what all you can get from warblade maneuvers and stances to complement this, but I'm sure you can find something.

Damage calculation: Assuming a modest Strength of 22 and Int of 16, and assuming Flurry of Swords, Rapid Shot, False Keenness, and full Power Attack and Dextrous Attack, versus an enemy within 20 feet, your attack bonus routine will be +32/+32/+32/+27/+22/+17. Against an enemy with an AC of 35 (typical for high-CR monsters), you'll expect to get the equivalent of 5.925 hits (including the multipliers from crits).

If you're wielding a scythe of collision, with no other interesting properties, each hit does an average of 5 (scythe) + 9 (enhancement) + 5 (collision) + 9 (str) + 20 (Power Attack) + 2 (specialization) + 1 (point blank) = 51 damage. So you're doing an average of 302.175 lethal damage to a single target. But you also have 1d4+3 mirror images, each using the same attack routine for nonlethal damage.

So your total damage on a full attack will average 1964.1375 points. Plus any spells you channeled into your full attack, and any other damage boosts that might be on your weapon. It's no Hulking Hurler, but it'll still knock out or kill anything in the Monster Manual.

Variations: You could advance Warblade fully instead of Duskblade, or somewhere in between. Or you could cut back on both (only one level of each is really needed) and take something else. The build currently has 10 levels which get full BAB on both sides, so there's even room for Scout or Rogue or something else with lower BAB.

If you don't mind the cheese, you could overlap Bloodstorm and Arcane Duelist levels, to make room for other PrCs (Master Thrower, maybe?). There's also room for one level of something else at 20.

Equipment: As with any warrior-type, you're going to want to sink a fair bit of your wealth into your weapon (I prefer a scythe, here). You can cast GMW, so only one point should be spent on enhancement bonus, leaving room for other special abilities. I recommend Collision in particular, plus Holy, spell storing, elemental damage, and whatever else you like. You can also wear decent armor, so that's another thing to spend wealth on.

It should be noted that, although I've been assuming a scythe throughout (after which the character is named), you're not tied to any particular weapon. If your DM takes away all of your equipment, you can still do almost as well with a nonmagical greatclub. And if your DM gives you a +X Weapon of Awesomesauce, you can use that, too. It only takes a day to shift your feats to a new weapon, and a week to shift your arcane duelist Chosen Weapon.

Drawbacks: Even with Far Shot, you're going to have a maximum range of 100 feet, far shorter than a conventional archer.

You have a fair bit of MAD, with features that depend on everything but Wis. I recommend not bothering much with Cha (used only for Apparent Defense) or Dex (you'll be using Str for attack rolls and wearing medium armor), unless you can pick them up cheaply.

Flurry of Swords requires a single target, so you don't have any options versus a bunch of enemies, beyond splitting up a normal full attack among them.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-14, 03:01 AM
Infinite Damage Loop

This auto-wins the Gouda award. 14 million damage is meaningless next to Infinity. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2008-03-14, 08:36 AM
This auto-wins the Gouda award. 14 million damage is meaningless next to Infinity. :smallbiggrin:

I object. Pun-Pun can be ECL1, doesn't even need to be gestalt and can still deal infinite damage, ranged or otherwise (or do infinite anything else).

Talic
2008-03-14, 11:53 PM
Wrong again. Martial throw is level 2. Thunderous throw (also level 2) allows you to use your melee attack bonus including strength and feats on thrown attacks, and also allows you to use power attack including the full damage bonus for power attacking with a 2H weapon (if applicable) on those attacks.

If you dig back to the start of this subthread, the original comment was about not being able to use the Aura of Chaos stance with ranged attacks, the second comment suggested 2 levels of Bloodstorm Blade. Neither of these abilities actually allows the use of the Aura of Chaos stance on a ranged attack as 1/ its not an Iron Heart strike, 2/ it doesn't affect attack bonus, 3/ it doesn't affect Power Attack.

I know. I read that. This is in response to that incorrect post by you.

And I quote:

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your..." more stuff not related to showing you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Thunderous throw allows you to treat it as a melee attack. NOT "For purposes of melee attack bonus and power attack". NOT "For Iron heart strikes only". It's pretty straightforward. You treat ranged attacks as melee attacks.

Question: Is it a ranged attack?

IF YES: Treat as melee.

IF NO: Ignore this ability.

Talic
2008-03-15, 12:00 AM
This auto-wins the Gouda award. 14 million damage is meaningless next to Infinity. :smallbiggrin:

Name me any creature that will survive a 14 million damage hit, and not survive the infinite hit.

Further, build is more dependent on magic. the 14 million build (now up to 132 million+) can hide in plain sight as an (Ex). Thus, it can get by magic detecting abilities like true seeing.

I mean, the pixie's good from levels 11-15, but after that, everything detects invisibility. Once that happens, it's not that hard to stop.

This means the non-infinite build is actually more effective at levels 4-10, and 16-20.

Not to mention, infinite is easy. Yes, it's a novel concept. Yes, it's gouda. Yes, it has my vote, but only because I consider it unethical to vote for myself, or any derivative from my concept.

Eldariel
2008-03-15, 09:25 AM
The time has come, my fellow Terrans, to post a second build!

The Blade of the First One

Name: Diter Beleuda
Build: Lesser Drow Erudite 15/Martial Rogue 2/Warblade 3 // Warblade 3/Erudite 3/Targetteer 2/Ranger 2/Eternal Blade 10
ACFs: Convert Spells to Power, Targetteer Fighter (picking Greatbow, Longbow and one more exotic ranged weapon), Martial Rogue, Spiritual Connection, Hit and Run, Poison Use, Arcane Hunter, Elf Favored Enemy
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Deity: None
Ability Scores: 10/18/12/16/8/8 (racially adjusted)
Cheese Points: 1 for ignoring stupid multiclass rules that favor PHB classes over Psionics and other cool systems.
Minimum Level Playable: 1
Power Breaks: 7 (White Raven Tactics, Practiced Manifester), 11 (Eternal Blade), 19 (Time Stands Still)

{table=head]ECL | Left class | Right class | Feats | Special | Maneuvers
1 | Erudite 1 | Ranger 1 | Track, Point Blank Shot, Psicrystal Affinity | Convert Spells to Power, Spiritual Connection, Elf Favored Enemy: Undead |
2 | Erudite 2 | Ranger 2 | Rapid Shot | |
3 | Martial Rogue 1 | Targetteer 1 | Weapon Focus: Greatbow, Precise Shot | Arrow Swarm, Poison Use | |
4 | Martial Rogue 2 | Targetteer 2 | Combat Reflexes | Vital Aim, Evasion | |
5 | Erudite 3 | Warblade 1 | | Weapon Aptitude, Battle Clarity | Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Bolstering Voice
6 | Erudite 4 | Warblade 2 | Woodland Archer | Uncanny Dodge | Wall of Blades
7 | Warblade 3 | Erudite 5 | Practiced Manifester | Battle Ardor | White Raven Tactics
8 | Warblade 4 | Erudite 6 | | | Absolute Steel Stance, switch Rapid Wolf Strike for Iron Heart Surge
9 | Warblade 5 | Erudite 7 | Weapon Specialization: Greatbow, Improved Initiative | | Mind over Body
10 | Erudite 8 | Warblade 6 | | Improved Uncanny Dodge | |
11 | Erudite 9 | Eternal Blade 1 | | | Eternal Training 1/day | Rapid Counter
12 | Erudite 10 | Eternal Blade 2 | Ranged Weapon Mastery, Imprint Stone | Guided Strike |
13 | Erudite 11 | Eternal Blade 3 | | Armored Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training 2/day | Iron Heart Endurance
14 | Erudite 12 | Eternal Blade 4 | | Eternal Knowledge |
15 | Erudite 13 | Eternal Blade 5 | Ranged Threat | Eternal Training 3/day | Crusader's Strike, Thicket of Blades
16 | Erudite 14 | Eternal Blade 6 | | Defensive Insight |
17 | Erudite 15 | Eternal Blade 7 | Overchannel | Eternal Training 4/day | White Raven Hammer
18 | Erudite 16 | Eternal Blade 8 | Improved Precise Shot | Tactical Insight |
19 | Erudite 17 | Eternal Blade 9 | | Eternal Training 5/day | Time Stands Still
20 | Erudite 18 | Eternal Blade 10 | | Island in Time | [/table]

Powers are something like: Offensive Prescience, Offensive Precognition, Bolt, Energy Bolt, Defensive Precognition, Grease, Catfall, Biofeedback, Sustenance, Damp Power, Levitate, Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Touchsight, Dispel Psionics, Freedom of Movement, Trace Teleport, Temporal Acceleration, Teleport, Plane Shift, Major Creation, Contingency, Teleport Trigger, Moment of Prescience, etc. Researching Teleport Trigger, Schism, Greater Magic Weapon, True Strike, Greater Mighty Wallop, Haste and if allowed, Celerities. And few other random powers that could be helpful.

How it works:
Psionic Machine Gun. Basically, from early on, the character is able to get a lot of attacks at large penalties. Using Psionic powers such as Offensive Precognition and Offensive Prescience, those penalties are mitigated and the character can truly hit with those volleys. Arrow Swarm allows two extra ranged attacks at -5 for the turn, which is just awesome. Thanks to Vital Aim, the character can use Dex for damage against living creatures and Elf Favored Enemy: Undead fixes up one major non-living group. Also, thanks to the Drow Fighter Hit and Run-variant, the build can add Dex to damage again against Flat-Footed Opponents and gets +2 Initiative (so with Dexterity of 18+6+5+1 = 30 (reasonable), he has +16 to Initiative with Improved Initiative; this before adding items). Rogue Poison Use allows for Black Lotus Extract or similar poison (created by Psionic Major Creation) on your arrows for great extra effects on the volley, and the build can either Track or Find Traps with the Ranger's Track/Trap Expert. It can only do one or the other though.

Once the character enters Eternal Blade, Eternal Training gives him Int to damage and hit, making the volleys even more likely to hit and deal tremendous damage. It also allows picking up some key Diamond Mind-maneuvers. Eventually once the character reaches level 19, the character manifests Schism, uses Time Stands Still with Haste, Arrow Swarm et company. for a very large attack (16 attacks out of those) and uses Schismed mind to manifest Temporal Acceleration to recoup maneuvers, then takes a Belt of Battle-turn for a second go at the same, then (if allowed) can manifest Greater Celerity for a third go. And then he gets Island in Time, which gives him an entire new turn (suppose that affects Schismed mind too since we're talking about an actual turn at a different initiative count much like getting White Raven Tacticsed, not just extra actions, nor really a Temporal Acceleration-type effect), recoup Time Stands Still and do another full attack. The best part of this all is that when you're doing some 50 attacks a turn (without magically enhanced weaponry), Woodland Archer's Adjust for Range-ability gives you cumulative +4 for each miss, thus meaning that if your opponent has...120 for AC, you only miss about 20 times and you're shooting at ~+120 after that for the remaining 30 shots and with Guided Strike sneaked in there (you'll probably need to drop Belt of Battled turn), you'll ignore DR for all those shots.

Little additional game, the character has Combat Reflexes and Ranged Threat, thus being able to take attacks of Opportunity within 15' and with Rapid Counter, effectively two of them. The character also has access to Thicket of Blades so he can punish movement in the 15' radius square around him quite effectively. I suppose you could cram Mage Slayer in there to lockdown Magicians, but the build is kinda short on feats as it stands; I really like the Ranged Weapon Mastery range increment and the damage isn't bad either especially as untyped bonuses stack. Also, thanks to shared focus of Greatbow, the character is fully capable with a Longbow too, and with Weapon Aptitude, as long as he has the weapon from the beginning of the day, with anything.

He also has the Powers to deal with any potential issues that prevent the normal routines, and he can effectively learn any Magic to help out there too (save for 9th level). Oh yeah, and he has a Psi Crystal that he can have Diverting Teleports for him (very handy for mobility with Teleport Triggers and such), sharing powers and so on. I suppose he'll want to pick up Solicit Psi Crystal to avoid the annoying 'Concentrate to Power'-limitations.

Equipment
He's a Psion with full Manifester Level and quite a few power points so he can blast things quite effectively, and he's got the means to create arrows and bows should he need be, so he's not really equipment-reliant.

He does want to have a Splitting Bow though if he wants to deal tons of damage, especially before he reaches those übernova levels (especially thanks to the RAW synergy of Woodland Archer's Adjust for Range and the extra attack rolls from Splitting). Also, Sundark Goggles from Races of Dragon are nice (10gp a piece, I recall), making you immune to Light Blindness, which is otherwise an annoying hazard of being a Lesser Drow (he's one only to get the ACFs anyways); of course, with Dense Foliage from Woodland Archer, even if you're blinded for a turn, you can still shoot at the same target as last turn with no penalty, as you ignore all concealment.

So yea, he likes two pieces of equipment and the usual stat boosters, but he's just fine with a Composite Greatbow from Major Creation and Arrows from Bolts each morning (lasts 1 hour per level, so in midlevels, it's 10+ hours and two will carry you through the day).

Offense
Early on, he shoots boosted shots (the first power he'll use constantly is Offensive Prescience or Precognition, depending on how tough to hit the targets are).

Midlevels, he does Arrow Swarm-volleys with Woodland Archer, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Eternal Training and Offensive Precognition to help with the hitting part.

Late levels he can use Greater Magic Weapons and the like to make a very pumped bow, then an Overchanneled Offensive Prescience for heavy damage boosts and eventually launch those 50-attack flurries in one round. Base damage is 1d10+10 (Dex)+4 (Focuses)+5 (Magic Weapon)=1d10+19 (against non-living, it's only 9, but Int and Dex from Hit'n'Run can still be added) with possibly Dex another time, Int (10), another 9 from Overchanneled Offensive Prescience, tons from Greater Mighty Wallop and so on. Also, all the arrows can be poisoned with Black Lotus Extract, which is DC23 Fort-save or take a ton of Con-damage. With a bunch of arrows hitting, some saves will fail dealing devastating ability damage. Other poisons are available at the player's whimsy.

This guy can probably one-turn Hecatoncheires on level 20 too as he has much higher range than Heca so as long as you can see Heca from 1000' away, with Woodland Archer, you'll quickly climb high enough to hit and with 48 attacks, all it takes is few buffs and Guided Strike to make those arrow deadly enough to deal 1000 damage in one turn. I'm not gonna do the precise math, but I think it's sufficient to say that you won't even need to use all the buffs in your arsenal.

Defense
Defensive Precognition comes in at midlevels. Early on he uses his armor proficiencies along with some maneuvers to keep himself alive and well. He also has high saves with all 3 saves starting at full advancement for 2 turns and continuing for a while. Later on he'll have more potent powers to protect him along with augmented versions of the earlier ones. All in all, he'll be tough to touch.

Hitpoints are around 135.5 without enhancements, 195 with some. Saves can be made as Concentration-checks (which is maxed due to Erudite anyways) and Reflex, which is the worst advancement out of the bunch, gets both, Int and Dex added to it (thanks to Warblade ability). Will is decent thanks to the full advancement from Erudite-levels (all 18 of them), and Fort is good since it recieves full advancement all the way and Con will be buffed anyways. Tons of psionic powers help with Will-saves too, so his mind is relatively safe.

He also has Evasion, tons of Dispels, Iron Heart Surge, and a whole bucketload of Powers and Maneuvers to defend with, so he'll have little difficulty staying alive.

Weaknesses
You're affected by Windwall again. Not that you couldn't Dispel it, but it wastes time you could be using to lay waste. In an Anti-Psionic Field, you're merely an Eternal Blade with few added feats, so while it's not the worst thing ever, you could hope for better surroundings. Of course, if those fields really annoy you, you can Iron Heart Surge them away.

The build doesn't really have weak levels; he'll be shooting painful arrows that hit from level 1, he'll be doing Arrow Swarms from level 3 and has Dex to damage from level 4; he'll be barking orders with White Raven Tactics from level 7, he'll be adding everything to his attacks from level 11 and he'll be doing stupid novas on level 20.


Obligatory Sources: PHB (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, a bunch of feats), Tome of Battle (Warblade, Eternal Blade, maneuvers), Expanded Psionics Handbook (all the Powers, Psion), Complete Psionics (Erudite), Mind's Eye: Expanded Classes, Part Four (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) (Convert Spells to Power)

Additional Used Sources: Dragon 310 (Targetteer Fighter (along with his abilities, Vital Aim and Arrow Swarm)), Dragon 350 (Ranged Threat) Player's Guide to Faerun (Lesser Drow), Drow of the Underdark (Hit and Run-Fighter, Poison Use Rogue), Unearthed Arcana (Martial Rogue), Player's Handbook II (Ranged Weapon Mastery), Races of the Wild (Elvencraft Bow, Ranger ACF, Woodland Archer), Complete Warrior (Greatbow), Complete Champion (Spiritual Connection), Complete Mage (Arcane Hunter), Races of Dragon (Sundark Goggles)

Chronos
2008-03-15, 01:42 PM
Name me any creature that will survive a 14 million damage hit, and not survive the infinite hit.For that matter, I just calculated my build's average damage in a round versus something like the Tarrasque or a Balor (AC 35). It's nearly two thousand (300 real, and the rest subdual), even before adding in Arcane Channeling (which I didn't do, because first, there's some debate about whether rays can be channeled, and second, because I'm not sure how it would interact with Flurry of Swords).


Cheese Points: 1 for ignoring stupid multiclass rules that favor PHB classes over Psionics and other cool systems.How are the multiclass rules biased against psionics? They don't really work too well in Gestalt, but I don't see how psionic classes are hit any harder by them than the PHB ones.

The Gilded Duke
2008-03-15, 03:21 PM
General D. Fenestrator
Chaotic Evil
Human Wilder 10/Thrallherd 10 // Bard 10 / War Chanter 10
Base Stats: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 18
Cheese Points: 10 (Should be higher)

Gen. D. Fenestrator has an army. While Fenestrator's Inspire Legion is in effect all of his army within 60 feet fights with a +20 BAB. Gen. D. Fenestrator is a ranged fighter who uses throwing weapons. Fenestrator uses Empowered Telekenetic Thrust to throw his troops at the enemy. The enemy takes damage based upon their weight, the soldier only takes 1d6. When he throws soldiers in this manner, they are then free to make full attacks on their initiative. With an Empowered Telekenetic Thrust Fenestrator can throw 21 soldiers each turn.

His Dragon Cohort alternates between throwing another 21 soldiers a turn and casting counter-magic. His first Thrall is a 17th level crusader with white raven tactics. His second Thrall is an 18th level Marshal.

His 18th level Undead Cohort is a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer. His Dragon's Cohort is a 19th level Cleric.

Important feats:
Inquisitor, Expanded Knowledge Mindlink, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus Whip, Empower Power, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Psionic Meditation

Assuming that Followers and Cohorts can have leadership: 978 Soldiers

General D. Fenestrator has:
135 First Level Believers
13 Second Level Believers
7 Second Level Believers
4 Fourth Level Believers
2 Fifth Level Believers
1 Sixth Level Believers - One 4th, Five 1st
1 17th Level Thrall - One 15th, 75 1st, 7 2nd, 4 3rd, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 4th, five 1st
1 18th Level Thrall- One 16th, 90 1st, 9 2nd, 5 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 4th, 5 1st

General D. Fenestrator tries to call Warblades and Crusaders of small sized races.

135 First Level Undead
13 Second Level Undead
7 Second Level Undead
4 Fourth Level Undead
2 Fifth Level Undead
1 Sixth Level Undead
1 18th level undead - One 16th, 90 1st, 9 2nd, 5 3rd, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 4th, 5 1st
Fenestrator tries to control all Allips or other Incorporeal or light undead.

1 ECL 21 Dragon
Fenestrator tries to get a 21st level Dragon-Wraught Kobold with Epic Leadership
1 19th Level cohort
260 First Level
26 2nd level
13 3rd level
7 4th level
4 5th level
2 6th level
1 7th level

avr
2008-03-16, 12:05 AM
I know. I read that. This is in response to that incorrect post by you.

And I quote:

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your..." more stuff not related to showing you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Thunderous throw allows you to treat it as a melee attack. NOT "For purposes of melee attack bonus and power attack". NOT "For Iron heart strikes only". It's pretty straightforward. You treat ranged attacks as melee attacks.

Question: Is it a ranged attack?

IF YES: Treat as melee.

IF NO: Ignore this ability.
First, could you please tone down your language a bit? That's a request, not an order or something.

I think the mistake - and IMO it is a mistake - is in ignoring the phrase 'attack rolls' in the quote "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your..." Attack rolls are just that, not damage rolls or the type of attack made.

The bit after "You use your..." makes it clear that this refers to substituting your melee attack bonus for the usual ranged attack bonus, and specifies that ranged attack roll modifiers such as range still apply.

I think I do know what I'm talking about here.

Talic
2008-03-16, 04:43 AM
First, could you please tone down your language a bit? That's a request, not an order or something.

I think the mistake - and IMO it is a mistake - is in ignoring the phrase 'attack rolls' in the quote "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your..." Attack rolls are just that, not damage rolls or the type of attack made.

The bit after "You use your..." makes it clear that this refers to substituting your melee attack bonus for the usual ranged attack bonus, and specifies that ranged attack roll modifiers such as range still apply.

I think I do know what I'm talking about here.


Then we're in disagreement on more than one issue. The unclear portion is that it doesn't say you treat your ranged attack rolls as melee attack rolls. It says you treat them as melee attacks, applying ranged increment penalties, but in all other ways (melee attack bonus, bonus feats for melee attacks, such as Power attack, leap attack, cleave, to name a few, etc etc) it is a melee attack. You're getting hung up on that word "rolls". It's not paralleled, indicating that it only applies to rolls. In fact, the fact that you can apply power attack to it suggests that the ability DOES account into other areas than JUST rolls, as you claim.

The ability's badly worded. That doesn't mean you're an idiot, or any other derogatory term. I doubt you are. If you read more into what I'm saying than I am, then that's your choice. All I'm saying is that in this instance, you are not familiar with that which you speak. I'm not saying you're a bad person. I'm not saying you kick cats. I'm saying that, for the level 2 abilities of the Bloodstorm Blade, you're not familiar enough to be correct. If you construe that as needing to "tone down my language", well, I'm sorry you think so.

Pointing out inaccuracies, and labeling them as such, however, is hardly rude, or disrespectful.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-16, 04:54 AM
Name me any creature that will survive a 14 million damage hit, and not survive the infinite hit.

Mortiverse.

Your other stuff: Pre-buff with Dragonsight, giving you blindsense out to 10ft/CL. Cast Celerity. Follow it up with Daylight targeted on your square. You suddenly lack the shadows necessary to use Hide in Plain Sight.

None the less. Infinity > 14 million. Ergo, Infinite Damage is more cheesy than 14 million.

Talic
2008-03-16, 05:03 AM
Mortiverse.

Your other stuff: Pre-buff with Dragonsight, giving you blindsense out to 10ft/CL. Cast Celerity. Follow it up with Daylight targeted on your square. You suddenly lack the shadows necessary to use Hide in Plain Sight.

None the less. Infinity > 14 million. Ergo, Infinite Damage is more cheesy than 14 million.

Ranger HiPS doesn't need shadows. :) There is an advantage to not going Shadowdancer Cheese.

So, prebuff, check. Daylight, check.

Darkstalker (half my feats ARE still open, remember), and you can't target vs daylight, not that it's effective if you could. Not a bad feat for a char with a +50 or better modifier to hide and HiPS.

Prob with infinite build is it's too focused. Can't do anything else. The build I put in has too many SLA's to count, and so many resistances, it's not funny. It's more resistant, can TAKE a hit, and can do the damage, every round, all day long.

EDIT: Oh, and infinity is not > 132 million (the current amount of the build). Nor is it less than. Nor is it equal. Infinity is a CONCEPT, not a number. Thus, there is no actual comparison between it and any number.

ZeroNumerous
2008-03-16, 05:20 AM
Your Hide in Plain Sight requires foliage. As does the entire build and it's based on a hypothetical rock that doesn't actually exist. If you want to get into semantics, a hulking hurler hoping for that kind of damage doesn't actually get anything.

Finally, I suggest dropping the attitude. Infinite damage is greater cheese than any amount of damage expressed in numerals.

Eldariel
2008-03-16, 05:27 AM
For that matter, I just calculated my build's average damage in a round versus something like the Tarrasque or a Balor (AC 35). It's nearly two thousand (300 real, and the rest subdual), even before adding in Arcane Channeling (which I didn't do, because first, there's some debate about whether rays can be channeled, and second, because I'm not sure how it would interact with Flurry of Swords).

Try Hecatoncheires. I hold that every self-respecting level 20 Gestalt build should be able to kill a Heca over 50% of the time in an encounter. It shouldn't take too much work assuming that you know it's coming and have time to prepare.


How are the multiclass rules biased against psionics? They don't really work too well in Gestalt, but I don't see how psionic classes are hit any harder by them than the PHB ones.

Because none of the common races have Psionic Favored Classes. If my build had used...say, Wizard instead of Erudite, I could've easily just decided to be a male drow and thus have Wizard as my Favored Class, but since I wanted to play a Psionic class instead (for Schism), I'm punished since none of the possible race options for an Eternal Blade have any Psionic classes as the Favored Class.

Talic
2008-03-16, 05:31 AM
Your Hide in Plain Sight requires foliage. As does the entire build and it's based on a hypothetical rock that doesn't actually exist. If you want to get into semantics, a hulking hurler hoping for that kind of damage doesn't actually get anything.

Finally, I suggest dropping the attitude. Infinite damage is greater cheese than any amount of damage expressed in numerals.

Wrong again. It requires "Natural surroundings". Which means, in the middle of a broad open field? Check. Top of a Mountain, on a bright sunny day? Check. Open cavern? Check.

As long as the settings aren't hypothetically artificial, it works.

Include a nonmagical depleted uranium spiky ball with handles. That'll use up some of the 80% wealth the build still has available. Also takes care of your other hypothetical arguement.

Ok, by that logic, on infinite > anything... Level 10 warblade/Level 2 bloodstorm blade, stats irrelevant, with aura of chaos, and any weapon. Damage is potentially infinite. Thus, this is greater than any other non-infinite build in the thread.

Point is, infinite damage doesn't go off if it can't hit. It can't hit if things deny it the primary advantage it has, or if the magic it heavily relies on is tampered with. Infinite "If" builds aren't truly infinite. "if" the creature sits there and doesn't see the level 20 creature protected with only the equivalent of a 4th level spell, and if magic works fine, and if you get the chance to prebuff and charge up, and if if if if if...

Do this, then do that, then do that, then get infinite, is that build... IF they don't detect during that time.

Most other builds... Throw, hit. That's the extent of the buff. Mine? A single swift action is all the buff he needs.

I'm sure the infinite build will be much more powerful, capable of also killing a single unique creature, while being equivalent effectively to every other... After the enemies give him the reasonable courtesy of 2 rounds buffing time. :smallamused:

Chronos
2008-03-16, 01:35 PM
Try Hecatoncheires. I hold that every self-respecting level 20 Gestalt build should be able to kill a Heca over 50% of the time in an encounter. It shouldn't take too much work assuming that you know it's coming and have time to prepare.Hmm... What's the range increment on its boulders? I can put out enough damage, if I have some sort of way of bypassing armor and/or natural armor (is there anything on the Duskblade spell list or Warblade maneuver list to do that?). The problem would be surviving long enough... I've got a great miss chance (Mirror Image and Blur from Arcane Duelist), but True Seeing bypasses all of it, and I don't think I can survive fifteen of those boulders.

Then again, that thing is CR 57. I don't think it's too much of an embarrassment for a warrior-type, even Gestalt, to get squished by something with a CR nearly three times its level.


Because none of the common races have Psionic Favored Classes.Ah, that makes sense, but it's not really a matter of different systems, so much as just different classes. A favored soul, say, uses more or less the same spell system as a sorcerer, but I don't think that there's anything at all with Favored Soul as a favored class. At least the psionic classes get Elans and Half-Giants.

dspeyer
2008-03-16, 07:18 PM
My previous entry was all about movement, so let's try an archer who stands still.

Name: Ignotus, Master of Unseen Death
Initial stats: STR: 10 DEX: 19 CON: 10 INT: 14 WIS: 11 CHA: 8 (boost dex)
Race: Halfling
Cheese: 1 (ignores multiclassing penalties)
Playable from: 1
Power breaks: 11: dimension door, 15: hide in plain sight
Build:
{table]lvl|class 1|class 2|feats|bonus damage|hide mod|ms mod|special
race|halfling||||4|2|small, save bonuses
1|fighter|wilderness rogue|pbs,precise|1d6|12|10|
2|fighter|wilderness rogue|wf|1d6|13|11|evasion
3|ranger|wilderness rogue|far shot, track|2d6|14|12|favored enemy
4|ranger|wilderness rogue|rapid|2d6|16|14|
5|ranger|wilderness rogue|endurance|3d6|17|15|
6|horizon walker (forest)|OotBI|manyshot|3d6+1d8|22|16|
7|horizon walker (marsh)|OotBI||3d6+1d8|23|21|
8|horizon walker (underground)|assasin||4d6+1d8|24|22|poison use
9|horizon walker (mountains)|assasin|greater manyshot|4d6+1d8|25|23|
10|horizon walker (plains)|assasin||5d6+1d8|26|24|
11|horizon walker (shifting)|assasin||5d6+1d8|27|25|dimensional door
12|OotBI|assasin|impr prec|6d6+2d8|29|27|
13|OotBI|assasin|greater wf|6d6+2d8|30|28|
14|OotBI|assasin||7d6+3d8|31|29|
15|OotBI|assasin|impr crit|7d6+3d8|32|30|hide in plain sight
16|OotBI|wilderness rogue||7d6+4d8|33|31|
17|OotBI|wilderness rogue||8d6+4d8|34|32|
18|OotBI|wilderness rogue|stealthy|8d6+5d8|37|35|60 ft precision
19|ranger|wilderness rogue||8d6+5d8|38|36|animal comanion
20|ranger|wilderness rogue||9d6+5d8|40|38|skill mastery(hide,ms,...), 2nd favored enemy[/table]
(since stealth is so key to the build, I've included the hide and move silently modifiers in the table. These don't include bonuses from equipment.)

Strategy:
Get within sneak attack range, then snipe away for massive precision damage. Once you get dimension door, use it to cross highly exposed and watched spaces, and as a way to escape if noticed. If you dd into your sniping spot, you may as well wait for the ability to recharge before shooting. You can spend the time studying your victim, and cursing the authors who make that useless to you. You can also use it to apply poison, but save that for targets where you might not get a second round, because decent poison is very expensive.

Meta-strategy:
Try to convince your DM to house-rule a ranged death attack feat. It can require you be within sneak attack range.

Weaknesses:
Anything immune to piercing or immune to precision damage is pretty much immune to you. Through up an obscuring mist and run/dd away.

You haven't got much of a will save, so area-effect compulsions (eg fear) could be a big problem.

Equipment:
Get the best dex-boosting and stealth-boosting gear you can afford. Then pick up a good bow. Beyond that, wands of cure X wounds are always handy, as are assorted poisons.

Chronos
2008-03-16, 09:25 PM
Hmm, not a bad stealth build, but it could be better. First of all, consider Whisper Gnome. They're basically halflings, except with more Con and less Charisma, 30' speed, darkvision and low-light vision, and their racial skill mods are +4 each to Hide and Move Silently (plus their size modifer).

Second, you might look into taking the Dark template. Among other benefits, it gives you +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently, and Hide in Plain Sight, and it only costs 1 LA (negligible, especially in Gestalt). That'd move your power break all the way down to level 1.

Third, the bane of your existence is going to be not Fear, but Glitterdust. If your enemy has any idea of the general area of your square, bam, you're visible. The revealing effect doesn't even offer a save. The best counter to this is for your opponent to not know you're there in the first place. To this end, I recommend the Mosquito's Bite skill trick, from Complete Scoundrel, which causes your target to not notice the damage you're doing.

Fourth, for a stealth-boosting feat, Darkstalker is much better than Stealthy. The extra +2 offered by Stealthy probably won't make a difference at those levels, but Darkstalker lets you use your impressive stealth skills versus scent, tremorsense, blindsight, and blindsense. Stealthy will be useful only against dragons and druids (you're already past the Spot checks of everything else), but Darkstalker will let you effectively hide from all sorts of things that you couldn't before.

Eldariel
2008-03-17, 09:51 AM
Hmm... What's the range increment on its boulders? I can put out enough damage, if I have some sort of way of bypassing armor and/or natural armor (is there anything on the Duskblade spell list or Warblade maneuver list to do that?). The problem would be surviving long enough... I've got a great miss chance (Mirror Image and Blur from Arcane Duelist), but True Seeing bypasses all of it, and I don't think I can survive fifteen of those boulders.

I'm not sure about the range increment so I'd just rule that they have an infinite range increment (effectively the same 500' it has for Blindsight); as far as bypassing armor goes, Emerald Razor might interest you. Diamond Mind level 2 maneuver that allows making your next attack as a Touch Attack. I'm not all that familiar with the Duskblade spelllist, since I'm personally partial towards just using real Wizard in Gestalt instead of the halfassed progressions.


Then again, that thing is CR 57. I don't think it's too much of an embarrassment for a warrior-type, even Gestalt, to get squished by something with a CR nearly three times its level.

No, it's not an embarrassment, but it's a good test of sufficient optimization; it really isn't too tough to beat since it has a pretty sad initiative of +6 and mere 1000 HP. I mean, if I had 70hd, I'd have way more than 1000 HP.


Ah, that makes sense, but it's not really a matter of different systems, so much as just different classes. A favored soul, say, uses more or less the same spell system as a sorcerer, but I don't think that there's anything at all with Favored Soul as a favored class. At least the psionic classes get Elans and Half-Giants.

Of course, but regardless, the point remains that Favored Class-rules by RAW favor PHB since the book specifically states you should houserule them to suit new material. I mean, no Elf-variant has Scout as Favored Class? QUE? Scout IS basically an Elf. And Psionics, Drow are known to have a number of different Psions and yet none have Psionic Favored Classes. And all the Duskblades and such...well, all I'm saying is that Favored Class-rules suck.

Chronos
2008-03-17, 06:27 PM
I'm not all that familiar with the Duskblade spelllist, since I'm personally partial towards just using real Wizard in Gestalt instead of the halfassed progressions.Ordinarily, I'd agree, but in this particular build, I needed a full BAB class to cover for Arcane Duelist's lousy progression, and I decided that I'd rather have casting as a Duskblade 20 than as a Wizard 5. I could also have gone with the standard gish PrCs like Abjurant Champion and Spellsword there, but using those in Gestalt doesn't sit well with me.

Squash Monster
2008-03-17, 07:10 PM
"Name": Sonic death arrows.

The Idea: Arcane archer plus insanely high range plus divinations to find opponents.

Race: Fire Elf

{table=header]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | HD | Class Features
1 | Fighter | Wizard | 1 | d10 | Bonus Fighter feat, Scribe Scroll, Focused Conjurer, Hummingbird Familiar
2 | Fighter | Wizard | 2 | d10 | Bonus Fighter feat
3 | Fighter | Wizard | 3 | d10 | Natural Link (elven racial substitution level)
4 | Fighter | Wizard | 4 | d10 | Bonus Fighter feat
5 | Fighter | Havoc Mage | 5 | d10 | Battlecast 2nd
6 | Fighter | Havoc Mage | 6/1 | d10 | Bonus Fighter feat
7 | Arcane Archer | Wizard | 7/2 | d8 | Enhance Arrow +1, Spontaneous Divination
8 | Arcane Archer | Wizard | 8/3 | d8 | Imbue Arrow
9 | Cragtop Archer | Wizard | 9/4 | d8 | Adept climber, farsight
10 | Cragtop Archer | Wizard | 10/5 | d8 | Strike from above
11 | Cragtop Archer | Wizard | 11/6/1 | d8 | Arcing Shot
12 | Druid | Havoc Mage | 11/6/1 | d8 | Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy, Battlecast 4th
13 | Druid | Havoc Mage | 12/7/2 | d8 | Woodland stride
14 | Druid | Havoc Mage | 13/8/3 | d8 | Trackless step, Battlecast 8th
15 | Druid | Wizard | 14/9/4 | d8 | Resist nature's lure, Bonus Wizard feat
16 | Druid | Wizard | 14/9/4 | d8 | Wild shape (1/day)
17 | Druid | Wizard | 15/10/5 | d8 | Wild shape (2/day)
18 | Druid | Wizard | 16/11/6/1 | d8 | Wild shape (3/day)
19 | Druid | Wizard | 17/12/7/2 | d8 | Wild shape (large)
20 | Druid | Wizard | 17/12/7/2 | d8 | Venom immunity, Bonus Wizard feat
[/table]

Expected HP:
6d10 + 14d8 - 20 = 104 average

Spellcasting:
Casts as 18th level Wizard (Focused Specialist Conjurer drops enchantment, necromancy, illusion)
Casts as 9th level Druid

Feats:
1st: point blank shot
1st fighter: precise shot
2nd fighter: rapid shot
3rd: far shot
4th fighter: weapon focus: longbow
6th: mountain warrior
6th fighter: many shot
9th: improved rapid shot
12th: improved precise shot
15th: practiced spellcaster: druid
15th wizard: quicken spell
18th: natural spell
20th wizard: extend spell

Strengths:
Insane range
Imbue arrow
Spontaneous divination
Really high initiative score
Cast twice at once using Battlecast + Imbue Arrow

Weaknesses:
HP is not so hot.
Reflex save is moderately bad.

Base Stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 8
INT: 18
WIS: 12
CHA: 6
Put your first bonus in dex, put the rest in intelligence.

Items:
You'll want a +2 wis item by level 20, for druid casting I think you can handle that.
You'll also want a dragonbone composite longbow of distance, and a quiver full of flight arrows. This is not absolutely needed, but the range calculations given are based on this item. Get as close as you can.
If you can also get the splitting enchantment on your longbow, that would be nice, as it lets you be a machine gun too.
Finally, metamagic rods of extend would be nice to make your druid spells last longer.

How it works:
Range:
Composite longbow: 110ft
Dragonbone: +20ft
Flight arrows: +20ft
Of Distance: 2x
Far shot: 2x
Hawkeye (1st level Druid spell): 1.5x
Wind Tunnel (5th level Druid spell): 2x
Arcing shot: max range is 15 increments

If your game uses D&D math, that's 170ft * 4.5 * 15 = 11,475 feet
If your game uses real world math, that's 170ft * 2 * 2 * 1.5 * 2 * 15 = 30,600 feet
(both included because many tables forget how multipliers stack)
Either way, your arrows have to get there in 6 seconds, which means your arrows are flying at faster than the speed of sound. (1912.5 feet per second = 1.7 times the speed of sound, or 5100 feet per second and 4.7 times the speed of sound).

Initiative:
You have a high dexterity score, of course. The hummingbird familiar gives +4 to initiative as its familiar bonus. The 3rd level elf racial substitution level doubles a familiar's bonus (in exchange for losing the ability to deliver touch spells and speak with own kind). That's a +13ish modifier right there, before you start tossing around Nerveskitters and such. If something gets near you, you win initiative, teleport away, and nuke them.

Casting:
Two levels of Arcane Archer lets you fire an arrow and cast an area spell who's area is centered where your arrow lands. Havoc Mage's battlecast lets you, as a full round action, cast a spell of up to 8th level and make a single weapon attack. Since you can cast a spell as a weapon attack, you can cast two spells at once (plus your usual extra from quicken).

You can use this ability a number of ways:
Nuke somebody with three spells at once.
Buff yourself and fire at the same time using Battlecast
Cast Truestrike then fire an imbued arrow in the same turn

Shooting:
If you went for the splitting enchantment on your longbow, you can haste yourself and use Improved Rapidshot to get the following attack pattern (base attack only: does not include buffs or dex)
17/17/17/17/12/12/7/7/2/2
That's 10 attacks. With just Haste (+1), Wind Tunnel (+5), your dex (+4), a +4 dex item (+2), and weapon specialization (+1) you have +13 more than shown here.

Playability:
At level 1 you're the same gish as everybody else, with a few archery feats. You should do fine.

At level 5 you start being able to cast and shoot in the same turn, which means you're a pretty great archery gish now. At level 6 you have Haste, which is very nice with Rapid Shot, and Spontaneous Divination, which, on top of being awesome, also is going to be very important in letting you find your foes.

At level 8 you have Imbue Arrow, which lets you start casting multiple spells per round, allong with all the other awesomeness of Imbue Arrow.

At level 11 you get Arcing Shot, which adds some insanity to your range.

At level 12 you get Battlecast 4, which means you can now cast Solid Fog and Black Tentacles on somebody in the same turn. Additionally, this is your first level of Druid, which gives you Hawkeye: another range increase.

At level 14 you get Battlecast 8, which means you can double-cast pretty much anything you want. At level 15 you get quicken, which opens up the ability to triple-cast.

At level 18 you get Natural Spell, so feel free to wild shape into some ape with better stats than you.

Finally, at level 20 you get to cast Wind Tunnel, which is the last step in making your range insane. Also, you get level 9 wizard spells. Go ahead and spam Maw of Chaos: it's half the reason you didn't drop abjuration.

dspeyer
2008-03-17, 11:12 PM
Hmm, not a bad stealth build, but it could be better. First of all, consider Whisper Gnome. They're basically halflings, except with more Con and less Charisma, 30' speed, darkvision and low-light vision, and their racial skill mods are +4 each to Hide and Move Silently (plus their size modifer).

I think that goes beyond better into just plain broken. No 0LA humanoid should have +9 to any skill before personal stats or class levels, unless they have some serious disadvantage. They don't seem to have any weaknesses (though cha-based racial spellcasting and a cha penalty is a little weird).


Second, you might look into taking the Dark template. Among other benefits, it gives you +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently, and Hide in Plain Sight, and it only costs 1 LA (negligible, especially in Gestalt). That'd move your power break all the way down to level 1.

Now that does look made for this character. Maybe I'll rewrite him using it.


Third, the bane of your existence is going to be not Fear, but Glitterdust. If your enemy has any idea of the general area of your square, bam, you're visible. The revealing effect doesn't even offer a save.

Ouch, well spotted. I'm still not totally screwed, though. It's a -40, but at the high levels, adding the dark template, and if I get boosting equipment, I can still beat a wizard's spot check more often than not. On the other hand, glitterdust is a 2nd level spell. Maybe my best bet is to take out the mage on my first shot.

Actually, what I really want is to surround myself with a small anti-magic field, that I can briefly drop when I dimension door. Any way I can do that without lots of levels in full casters?


The best counter to this is for your opponent to not know you're there in the first place. To this end, I recommend the Mosquito's Bite skill trick, from Complete Scoundrel, which causes your target to not notice the damage you're doing.

As I read that, it requires a light weapon, which bows aren't. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense at my 57 expected damage by level 20. I can just picture it:

DM: make a fort save
Player: why?
DM: no reason. just do it
Player: um, 14
DM: you seem to have somehow transitioned to the ethereal plane
Player: that's weird. knowlege(arcana)...

Could make for some interesting role playing, but I didn't become an assassin to provide my enemies with +4LA templates at no cost. Do ghost wizards keep their prepared spells?


Fourth, for a stealth-boosting feat, Darkstalker is much better than Stealthy. The extra +2 offered by Stealthy probably won't make a difference at those levels, but Darkstalker lets you use your impressive stealth skills versus scent, tremorsense, blindsight, and blindsense. Stealthy will be useful only against dragons and druids (you're already past the Spot checks of everything else), but Darkstalker will let you effectively hide from all sorts of things that you couldn't before.

That does sound a lot more useful. I admit, I picked stealthy mostly because I ran out of good feats. I guess I have a lot of reading splatbooks to do before I can really optimize fully.

I might post an updated version of this later. I think dark opens up some possibilities, plus I seem to have miscounted my OotBI levels, so I should fix that. Not tonight, though.

Talic
2008-03-18, 12:23 AM
That does sound a lot more useful. I admit, I picked stealthy mostly because I ran out of good feats. I guess I have a lot of reading splatbooks to do before I can really optimize fully.

Stealthy shouldn't be picked unless you're still looking for feats after:

Darkstalker
Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)

The above soulmeld, with nothing else, no essentia-mongering, is a +4 Hide/+4 Move Silent, which is double the bonus of Stealthy.

Draz74
2008-03-18, 12:41 AM
I think that goes beyond better into just plain broken. No 0LA humanoid should have +9 to any skill before personal stats or class levels, unless they have some serious disadvantage.

I've never heard anyone call Raptorans broken with their +10 Jump.

Whisper Gnomes being broken is a somewhat defendable position (although I wouldn't worry about it in a high-powered Gestalt build challenge like this), but Hide +9 certainly isn't enough, by itself, to conclude that they're broken.


Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws)
The above soulmeld, with nothing else, no essentia-mongering, is a +4 Hide/+4 Move Silent, which is double the bonus of Stealthy.

From what little I know of Incarnum, though, it probably uses up your Gloves magic item slot, right? Which means it's not necessarily better than Stealthy, depending on how magic items play in the campaign.

Talic
2008-03-18, 12:48 AM
I've never heard anyone call Raptorans broken with their +10 Jump.

Whisper Gnomes being broken is a somewhat defendable position (although I wouldn't worry about it in a high-powered Gestalt build challenge like this), but Hide +9 certainly isn't enough, by itself, to conclude that they're broken.



From what little I know of Incarnum, though, it probably uses up your Gloves magic item slot, right? Which means it's not necessarily better than Stealthy, depending on how magic items play in the campaign.

Nope. Soulmelds only use up item slots if bound to chakra. The feat by itself, as well as the soulmeld, does not.

Beren One-Hand
2008-03-18, 01:01 AM
Strategy:
Get within sneak attack range, then snipe away for massive precision damage. Once you get dimension door, use it to cross highly exposed and watched spaces, and as a way to escape if noticed. If you dd into your sniping spot, you may as well wait for the ability to recharge before shooting. You can spend the time studying your victim, and cursing the authors who make that useless to you. You can also use it to apply poison, but save that for targets where you might not get a second round, because decent poison is very expensive.

You could do that... but I'd much rather spend my time praising Jesse Decker for the fourth level assassin spell, Sniper's Eye (which among other things allows a ranged death attack within 60' from a single 5' square) in Complete Adventurer... Much more productive.

Chronos
2008-03-18, 01:09 AM
As I read that, it requires a light weapon, which bows aren't. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense at my 57 expected damage by level 20. I can just picture it:And I guess the character as it stands sort of has to use bows specifically... There's probably a good reason it's not called "Order of the Throwing Dagger Initiate".

And I don't have any more splatbooks than you do; I just like stealthy characters, so whenever I see something that's good for them, I remember it.

Eldariel
2008-03-18, 12:35 PM
I think that goes beyond better into just plain broken. No 0LA humanoid should have +9 to any skill before personal stats or class levels, unless they have some serious disadvantage. They don't seem to have any weaknesses (though cha-based racial spellcasting and a cha penalty is a little weird).

Humans have +1/HD skill bonus to a skill of their choice. While it can't exceed their HD limit, fact is that they'll simply have more skills than any other Race (save for Int Bonus types). If anything, Humans seem broken. Although I suppose that's common knowledge by now. My point is that I think Whisper Gnomes stack up pretty well against Humans and are therefore actually on the power level every race should be on, if we want to make Human the guideline.

Duke of URL
2008-03-18, 02:02 PM
ENTRIES CLOSED

Please do not submit or edit any entries after this point.

Eldariel
2008-03-18, 02:04 PM
I thought they closed tomorrow :( Oh well, I guess I missed the chance to iron out post my 2 remaining builds then.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-03-18, 08:14 PM
ah! entries are closed?

...darn...

I had had a build that could shoot things at the sun at eighty times the speed of light

dspeyer
2008-03-19, 12:35 AM
Humans have +1/HD skill bonus to a skill of their choice. While it can't exceed their HD limit, fact is that they'll simply have more skills than any other Race (save for Int Bonus types). If anything, Humans seem broken. Although I suppose that's common knowledge by now. My point is that I think Whisper Gnomes stack up pretty well against Humans and are therefore actually on the power level every race should be on, if we want to make Human the guideline.

The guideline is the single most powerful? I see a problem here.

The problem is worse when you're comparing different abilities and trying to say which are comparably useful. Let us instead compare the whisper gnome to the core races it most resembles: gnomes and halflings.

Switching from gnome to whisper gnome loses the speak-to-burrowing-mammals ability (probably the most mocked racial ability in core), loses the craft(alchemy) bonus (I've never made a craft(alchemy) check, have you?) and moves two points from cha to dex. Unless you're of a class that needs cha, there's almost nothing to lose. In return you get 30' movement (in my experience, 20' move is the bane of small creatures) darkvision and huge stealth bonuses. Unless you're going to miss the cha, whisper gnome is just better than gnome. Races aren't supposed to be better than one another; their supposed to be different.

Comparing halfling to whisper gnome is a little harder. This time it's a move of cha to con (again, something a few classes need to something everyone needs). Then there's the loss of a bunch of random small bonus in exchange for bigger bonuses in stealth, plus some enemy-specific bonuses that may or may not be useful. Finally, there's the all-important move speed. In short, I can't think of a scenario, excepting the charisma powered classes, in which a halfling is better than a whisper gnome (perhaps we should offer that as a build challenge).

When a race simply dominates two PHB races (and not the two generally acknowledged as sucking), you know that race is overpowered.

Chronos
2008-03-19, 07:14 PM
In comparing the whisper gnome to the halfling, also remember that halflings get human-type vision. No low-light vision or darkvision, while the whispers get both. And if darkvision is valuable to anyone, it's to a rogue (the favored and optimal class for both), who often doesn't want to give away his location by carrying a light source.

Chronos
2008-03-24, 09:29 PM
Psst, Duke, you forgot to open voting again.

Beren One-Hand
2008-03-26, 08:14 PM
Strategy:
Get within sneak attack range, then snipe away for massive precision damage. Once you get dimension door, use it to cross highly exposed and watched spaces, and as a way to escape if noticed. If you dd into your sniping spot, you may as well wait for the ability to recharge before shooting. You can spend the time studying your victim, and cursing the authors who make that useless to you. You can also use it to apply poison, but save that for targets where you might not get a second round, because decent poison is very expensive.

Doesn't the D. Door ability of the Horizon Walker only work on a Shifting Plane? It would be much better to take six levels of Warlock (to get Flee the Scene). You'd lose one BAB, but get the ability to block all methods of tracking you and can see invisible/in the dark (or in magical darkness if you prefer).

Chronos
2008-03-26, 10:30 PM
Doesn't the D. Door ability of the Horizon Walker only work on a Shifting Plane?It does look like it implies that, but it also says that all of a Horizon Walker's terrain masteries are usable regardless of whether he's actually in the terrain or not. Personally, I think it's fine to allow it anywhere, as compensation for having taken five levels of Horizon Walker before that.

Besides, what the heck is a Shifting Plane, anyway? None of the standard planes are described that way.

Duke of URL
2008-04-01, 12:44 PM
VOTING NOW OPEN, UNTIL NOON PST APRIL 8

Entries:

Great Bows of Fire
Kalashnikov
Thor the Goliath
Rocks Fall; I'm Already Dead
Ghost of a Chance
Swift Kinurra
Morrigan
Gat Ling
Tauric Cheddar
Gurk
David is SO Ready for Goliath
Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun
Potshot
Daze of our lives
Whispers In The Night
Cheese falls, everybody dies
Ghengis
Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School
Arrow from the dark
Samtrass, Arry Manrow
Long-Range Lawnmower
Diter Beleuda
General D. Fenestrator
Ignotus, Master of Unseen Death
Sonic death arrows


Voting categories:

Ranged Champion: The build that best meets the challenge goals

Subcategories:


Awesome Archer - Best projectile weapons user

Terrific Thrower - Best thrown weapons user

Huh? - Race/class/feat combination that meets the challenge goals, but in a very unorthodox manner

Party Animal - You want to play it, or you want someone else in your party to play it.

Gouda - Again, folks still seem to want to win this, I know not why... cheesus maximus, the build your DM will auto-ban without a second thought

avr
2008-04-01, 06:03 PM
Champion, Awesome Archer & Party Animal: Sonic Death Arrows, because shooting people from a couple of miles off is indeed Awesome.

Terrific Thrower: Long Range Lawnmower - neat trick. I'd never heard of it or anything like it.

Huh?: General D'Fenestrator

Gouda: Rocks Fall because it makes me say No again and again.

Chronos
2008-04-01, 07:56 PM
Linked for convenience (with weapons of choice):
* Great Bows of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047428&postcount=2) (composite longbow)
* Kalashnikov (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047661&postcount=3) (bow)
* Thor the Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048344&postcount=4) (greathammer)
* (unnamed entry by playswithfire) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048706&postcount=6) (harpoons)
* Rocks Fall; I'm Already Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048943&postcount=7) (big rock)
* Ghost of a Chance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049039&postcount=8) (heavy crossbow)
* Swift Kinurra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049077&postcount=9) (shuriken)
* Morrigan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049290&postcount=12) (eldritch blast)
* Gat Ling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050102&postcount=18) (sai)
* Tauric Cheddar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050448&postcount=19) (bigger rock)
* Gurk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050650&postcount=22) (javelin)
* David is SO Ready for Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051001&postcount=25) (dart)
* Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051048&postcount=27) (bow)
* Potshot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051370&postcount=29) (sling)
* Daze of our lives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052221&postcount=35) (boomerang)
* Whispers In The Night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052757&postcount=41) (light crossbow)
* Cheese falls, everybody dies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053177&postcount=43) (biggest rock)
* Ghengis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053425&postcount=47) (composite longbow)
* Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053693&postcount=48) (shuriken)
* Arrow from the dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053763&postcount=50) (composite longbow)
* Samtrass, Arry Manrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053887&postcount=52) (greatbow)
* Long-Range Lawnmower (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4057809&postcount=58) (scythe)
* Diter Beleuda (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4061832&postcount=63) (greatbow)
* General D. Fenestrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4062923&postcount=65) (soldiers)
* Ignotus, Master of Unseen Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4067494&postcount=74) (bow)
* Sonic death arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4070549&postcount=78) (longbow)

Chronos
2008-04-01, 08:30 PM
My votes:
Awesome Archer and Ranged Champion: Arrow from the Dark. Several good stealth-based builds this time (a soft spot of mine), but I think this was the best one.

Terrific Thrower: Thor the Goliath. That hammer is going to hurt.

Huh?: General D. Fenestrator. C'mon, he's using troops as arrows.

Party Animal: Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School. Those ranged knockbacks will make for great battlefield control.

Gouda: Tauric Cheddar. Yeah, Cheese Falls and David do more, but Talic came up with the base idea. That monstrosity of a template? And using it with Hulking Hurler?

Squash Monster
2008-04-01, 08:33 PM
Abstaining self-votes, of course.

Ranged Champion: Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun
Awesome Archer: Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun
Terrific Thrower: Daze of our lives
Huh?: General D. Fenestrator
Party Animal: Great Bows Of Fire
Gouda: Tauric Cheddar

Annarrkkii
2008-04-01, 09:11 PM
Ranged Champion: Enough Arrows to Blot out the Sun.

Awesome Archer: Enough Arrows to Blot out the Sun. I like Legolas, too.

Terrific Thrower: Daze of Our Lives. Because I love the boomerang. A very close second to Long-range Lawnmower for its originality and nifty image.

Huh?: Gen. D'fenestrator.

Party Animal: Whispers in the Night. I LOVE that build. I just LOVE it. It's cool to visualize, and it makes crossbows (almost) work, and it has versatility and distinction—which are both important to a player.

Gouda: Tauric Cheddar. Objections?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-02, 07:46 AM
Ranged Champion: Enough Arrows to Blot Out the Sun.
-Awesome Archer: Enough Arrows to Blot Out The Sun.
-Terrific Thrower: Gat Ling.
Huh?: General D'fenestrator. The most unique entry by far.
Party Animal: Zeus, King of the Hill Champion!
Gouda: Tauric Chedder, accept no substitute.

I'm seeing some patterns here... :smallsmile:

Talic
2008-04-02, 09:51 AM
Ranged Champion: Enough Arrows to Blot Out the Sun.
-Awesome Archer: Enough Arrows to Blot Out The Sun.
-Terrific Thrower: Gat Ling.
Huh?: General D'fenestrator. The most unique entry by far.
Party Animal: Zeus, King of the Hill Champion!
Gouda: David, ready for goliath


I Like the concept, because it is original. I feel it has a couple glaring weakesses, but those could likely be shored up by magic items.

As for Zeus, the name alone is priceless, but the concept is great.

Eldariel
2008-04-03, 01:15 PM
I'll just go build by build:

* Great Bows of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047428&postcount=2) - It contains Arcane Archer-levels, which pretty much seals the deal. Imbuing arrows is handy though so it makes for a good magical long range sniper.
* Kalashnikov (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4047661&postcount=3) - Metamorphosis = pass
* Thor the Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048344&postcount=4) - A cool build, but doesn't really take advantage of Gestalt; having Bloodstorm Blade with full maneuver progression would be pretty sweet.
* (unnamed entry by playswithfire) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048706&postcount=6) - It would be a sweet build, but he never completed it. I'd probably vote this for the thrower otherwise :/
* Rocks Fall; I'm Already Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4048943&postcount=7) - Hulking Hurler = pass
* Ghost of a Chance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049039&postcount=8) - Pretty sweet Psionic build, I'd have loved to see a non-Psionic side on the other half and arguably using Illithid Slayer is against the rules as it's a dual progression class for melee and caster. Would love to see some actual attack stats.
* Swift Kinurra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049077&postcount=9) - Awesomely creative idea, but the lack of Swift Hunterish ability to deal precision damage to anything doesn't really do it for me.
* Morrigan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4049290&postcount=12) - Not a ranged weapon, pass.
* Gat Ling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050102&postcount=18) - Not a finished build, which is too bad since it could be cool.
* Tauric Cheddar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050448&postcount=19) - Hulking Hurler = pass
* Gurk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4050650&postcount=22) - A pretty interesting throw-build, but the Template-stack lowers its score considerably. Wouldn't play in a real game, so pass.
* David is SO Ready for Goliath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051001&postcount=25) - Another cheese build, I'm gonna vote for this simply because when talking about a game going to infinities, infinite HP can be commonplace and this is one of the few ways to kill 'em.
* Enough Arrows To Blot Out The Sun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051048&postcount=27) - The two halves don't really have synergy; much more could be done in Gestalt.
* Potshot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4051370&postcount=29) - Lack of non-precision damage is annoying, but this certainly wins the 'assassin' award. If only he didn't need to be so close :/
* Daze of our lives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052221&postcount=35) - While he doesn't have casting, he still has awesome versatility and battlefield control abilities. This is a Bloodstorm Blade Done Right.
* Whispers In The Night (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4052757&postcount=41) - Yet another cool Sneak Attack-build, feels like it doesn't truly utilize Gestalt to the extent it could. Still lacks means to kill Crit Immunes.
* Cheese falls, everybody dies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053177&postcount=43) - Hulking Hurler = pass
* Ghengis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053425&postcount=47) - Doesn't really feel much stronger than straight Swift Hunter. It's really hurting for more powerful long range weaponry. Ranged Weapon Mastery is mysteriously absent.
* Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053693&postcount=48) - Love the idea, but this one really wanted more ToB-levels to eventually pick up Time Stands Still. Would give the fellow so much more attacks.
* Arrow from the dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053763&postcount=50) - Intriguing build, although it seems to needlessly gimp itself with Beguiler's spell list; a straight Wizard would give it much, much more goodies. A fine assassin though, but I prefer the magicless Assassin-builds since they can't be located with different Magic Sights.
* Samtrass, Arry Manrow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4053887&postcount=52) - Friggin' horrible templating. Sorry guys, I'll try to be less wordy in the future. By the way, the name is an anagram of "Many Arrow, Smartass". 20 full Skirmish arrows with casting backup, quite a killer.
* Long-Range Lawnmower (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4057809&postcount=58) - I love Arcane Duelist. And it works in Gestalt. That said, I don't really think a ranged challenge is the place for it even with Bloodstorm Blade.
* Diter Beleuda (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4061832&postcount=63) - Why does this guy type so much :( This is an anagram too, standing for "Erudite Blade". 48 Arrows a turn with incremential bonuses and Power/Spell boosts, kills things fast and far.
* General D. Fenestrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4062923&postcount=65) - This one wins the 'LOL'-award.
* Ignotus, Master of Unseen Death (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4067494&postcount=74) - Probably the best one-arrow build - that said, I don't really see a point to One Arrow anyone if you can fire 48 in one turn instead. Fun build, but if we're going for the strong, this is not it.
* Sonic death arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4070549&postcount=78) - Best Sniper, period. I love Cragtop Archer, and no reliance.

So I'll go with:
Ranged Champion: Sonic Death Arrow
-Awesome Archer: Sonic Death Arrow
-Terrific Thrower: Daze of Our Lives
Huh?: General D'fenestrator
Party Animal: Ghost of a Chance - love the reference, love Psionics and love the idea of a guy shooting handheld ballista.
Gouda: I don't support Gouda.

Annarrkkii
2008-04-03, 05:58 PM
Aw, come now. Metamorphosis isn't THAT bad. :smalltongue:

Oh, well. Looks like the categories are mostly decided, I guess.

Duke of URL
2008-04-09, 08:03 AM
Congrats to the winners:

Ranged Champion: Enough Arrows to Blot Out the Sun


Awesome Archer: Enough Arrows to Blot Out the Sun

Terrific Thrower: Daze Of Our Lives

Huh?: General D. Fenestrator (unanimous!)

Party Animal: Zeuk, King of the Hill Champion from Your Elementary School

Gouda: Tauric Cheddar